The Freedom of Courage 297

Hundreds of thousands of people are already gathered outside and inside polling stations across Catalonia, defending them from the squads of paramilitary police who are fanning out from Barcelona port. The atmosphere is currently festive and the determination to vote of ordinary, decent vote is inspirational.

When a people permanently withdraws its consent to be governed, and finds the courage to defy the agents of authorised state force, there is no way that the government can reimpose itself unless it is prepared to spill quite serious quantities of blood. I do not refer only to today’s referendum, which hopefully will go ahead peacefully but could not be stopped without physical force. In the long term, having eschewed the democratic route in favour of force, Spain will not be able to repress Catalonia without plunging still deeper in to the kind of tactics which reveal the very real Francoist political roots of its Prime Minister and many of its ruling party.

The ironic point, of course, is that had Spain agreed to a referendum process, they had a fair chance of winning it. It worked for continuing Westminster control of Scotland, although the Spanish government do not have the mainstream media monopoly in Catalonia which the unionists enjoyed in Scotland. It will be astonishing if the contempt for the views of the Catalonian people shown by Spain over the last month, has not instead propelled a large number of Catalans into the Independence camp, the more so given Rajoy’s blundering insistence on changing things today into a physical confrontation.

The British and other western governments have painted themselves into the most embarrassing position. As paramilitary forces are looking today to prevent crowds of solid and peaceful citizens from voting, the entire political Establishment across the European Union has declared on the side of the paramilitaries. The Guardian editorial states that in the UK only a few Scottish nationalists support the Catalans. Yet again, the Establishment promotes its own opinion as that of the people. I am quite certain that the view of the average British person is not one of support for the Spanish government in suppressing the vote.

The most extraordinary thing of all is the falling in line of the entire political Establishment, right across the EU, and all of its mainstream media, with the mantra that the Catalonian referendum is illegal. The right in international law of a people to self-determination cannot be constrained by the domestic legislation of the larger state from which that people is seeking to secede. NATO itself went to war ostensibly to enforce the right to self-determination of the Kosovans, which Kosovan secession was claimed as illegal by Serbia in precisely the same terms the Spanish claim. The hypocrisy of NATO governments is breathtaking (as always).

Nor can the Catalan people be bound in perpetuity to any arrangement they agreed immediately after the demise of Franco. The right of self-determination of peoples is inalienable, and the Catalan situation is a perfect illustration of the meaning of inalienable in this sense. In fact, by arguing that Catalonia specifically signed up to the current Spanish constitution, all the Spanish government and its supporters are doing is offering conclusive evidence that the Catalans are indeed a people with the right of self-determination.

In 2015 Rajoy’s right wing extremists in power enacted a law making it illegal to film Spanish police, with a fine of up to 30,000 euros. So those getting out footage of police attempts to disrupt voting will be breaking that law. I am not sure to what extent that explains the coyness of BBC coverage so far, or to what extent it is just part of their normal BBC propaganda effort. It is worth noting that the British government is planning to privatise the power of arrest to companies like G4S and Serco, giving them a whole new range of people they can beat up, rather than just prisoners and illegal detainees.

The Establishment all round the world seeks to enforce its will, and to protect the vast wealth a tiny minority have been allowed to rob through manipulating the institutions of society. When you see the right wing Establishment worldwide, pus the entire mainstream media, united against the ordinary people as we see today in Catalonia, it is a no-brainer which side you should be on.

297 thoughts on “The Freedom of Courage

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  • frankywiggles

    One Guardian scribbler arbitrarily declaring what the British public thinks about events in Spain, without offering a scintilla of evidence. These are the crude methods by which the bewildered liberal herd is roped and has its mind shaped.

    • John A

      Yes and today’s Observer claims that the west’s relationship with Russia will never be restored until Putin goes. No reflection on the US occupation of Europe and much of the world via its countless bases preventing Europe from having a friendly and mutually acceptable relationship with Russia, irrespective of who is President there.

      • frankywiggles

        The Observer might even surpass the Guardian in terms of liberal fundamentalism, one-eyed neo-connery, double-standards and hypocrisy.

  • mickc

    Yes, a good piece; however your own views about the result of the UK referendum on EU membership seem entirely in line with those you criticise.
    The current tide of history is against massive blocs governed centrally, and in favour of smaller, local, more cohesive units with a common culture.

    • craig Post author

      On the contrary, in a world of smaller nations, international institutions and co-operation are still more important. Plus one explicit desire of the SNP is independence so Scotland can have its own, more open, immigration policy. “More cohesive” is just a Brexiteer racist code.

      • mickc

        There is a considerable difference between large centrally governed blocs and co-operative international institutions, which are indeed important. But that does not negate the evidence before us that the current forces of history are towards fragmentation.
        The reasons the SNP seek independence are, of course, secondary; the point is that it DOES seek independence. It is a nationalist movement in name and nature; that is always the case for peoples seeking self-government. That is not a bad thing unless it entails discrimination against other peoples within the territory it seeks to govern.
        Obviously I disagree with your last point; whilst no doubt some Brexiteers, like some Scottish Nationalists, are racist, it is surely not the defining point of either view. Any political entity needs its peoples to have some common shared beliefs; they provide the cohesion for it to survive. In a civilised entity one would expect those beliefs not to be based on race, creed, colour or religion. A shared belief in democracy and the rule of the laws it creates is usually a good start as a common culture.

        • giyane

          ” some Brexiteers,,,, are racist, it is surely not the defining point ”
          In that casr why on earth has Mrs May made it the defining point of HER policy that the UK people refuse to tolerate any more foreigners , and she’s prepared to sacrificial free trade for the sake of it. Totally NUTS.

        • Muscleguy

          And there is of course absolutely no Scottish government discrimination based on anything at all and such actions are illegal. So I’m not sure why you introduced that in a discussion about the Scottish situation except to imply that modern Scottish Nationalism is somehow exceptional instead of being absolutely open and inclusive.

          I was born here in Scotland but I grew up in NZ from the age of 6 and lost my accent. In all my campaigning in the last IndyRef where I was from was raised on only a handful of occasions and NEVER in a challenging or intimidatory manner, regardless of the socio-economic status of the area.

          Relating the above was always accepted with a smile.

          I’m not saying there is no racism in Scotland btw only that you won’t find it in the actions or the words of the Scottish government.

  • Frazer

    10.30am Spanish time…Spanish Riot Police use ” significant violence” against voters..Rubber bullets/balls fired at civilians. Sky News.

  • Ruth

    I believe the British Establishment was more subtle in dealing with the Scottish referendum – they just swapped the postal votes
    at the six counting stations.

    • reel guid

      And set off a fire alarm while the count was underway in Dundee. The place was evacuated for a good half hour. Dundee was their best place of doing it since it’s the strongest nationalist city. Much easier to cream off lots of Yes votes there without the Yes total looking suspiciously low.

      • Ruth

        Postal votes were submitted before the refererendum so it would have been really easy to changes the boxes overnight at the counting stations and then as a precaution swap the ballot boxes during a fire alarm

        • Habbabkuk

          Your claims are potentially libellous (against those charged with the referendum arrangements on the spot). Be careful.

      • Muscleguy

        I am personally acquainted with people from Dundee RIC who were official observers at the Dundee count. The fire alarm was repeatedly set off by a nicotine addict repeatedly trying to smoke in the toilets.

        There were absolutely no shenanigans. RIC in case you don’t know is the Radical Independence Campaign. We’re the awkward squad of mainstream Scottish Independence. Not for us the po-faced conformatism of the SNP and the formal Yes Scotland campaign.

        If there had been a hint of impropriety in the Dundee count RIC would have shouted it from the rooftops. Those people have told me specifically that nothing untoward happened.

        The reports were Russia Today shit stirring for their own reasons. You be a stooge for Putin if you want but I’m not going there. We lost the argument, oh and we failed to get the vote out on the day because there was no operation to do so in the Schemes because back then the SNP, who ran the get out the vote campaign were a middle class mob. RIC canvassed the schemes, not Yes Scotland. We failed to get that section of the people, with perhaps less than stable lives out to vote. They wanted to.

        One of us relates the time he was pursued down a close by a junkie. Turned out the junkie just wanted voter registration forms for himself and his girlfriend, we all carried them back then. The question is, did anyone make any attempt to get him and his girlfriend out to vote on the day? I’ve seen no evidence that there was.

        • reel guid

          Why were the ballot boxes left unguarded? All sports barns and halls have pushbar emergency exits so it wouldn’t have been risky for some officials to stay in the count hall.

  • willyrobinson

    There are images of cops fighting grannies on local TV at the moment. Sickening stuff…

    • Habbabkuk

      Yes, indeed. Amazing how the organisers of the “resistance” managed to put so many old people and young children in the first rows of the demonstrators.

      Mind you, it’s an old trick but all the more effective in the TV and internet era.

      • MightyDrunken

        Or more likely the photos you are going to see are going to show the more “interesting” stuff. Grannies are known to be more likely to vote than most.

  • Graham

    The big problem with all this is, how far down do you go? What about the rights of native Castillian speakers in Catalonia, many of whom will have roots stretching back centuries. In Quebec a substantial part of the Partie Quebeqois – and their electorate – wants to ban the use of English. There are minorities within minorities within minorities living all across eastern Europe and the Balkans, out of which irredentism has caused many wars in the last 150 years, and in the same area there are oppressed (according to some spokespeople), stateless groups such as the Ruthenes / Rusyns. Our own Cornish nationalists have a history and language to call on, plus the unanswered economic grievances of both long-term under-investment by Westminster and the destruction of their housing market and village economies by the holiday homes set. At what level do you say that the atomisation has gone too far? Does every househould have the right to individual self-determination? Passport to Pimlico, freedom for Tooting?

    • reel guid

      First things first. You adhere to democracy and the right of self determination. Any secessionist movement then has to pursue their goals democratically. If there’s a majority in the territory that wants independence then no one has the right to stop it. Same as no one has the right to prevent a democratic vote taking place.

  • willyrobinson

    My wife rang rang a short while ago to say all is well so far from her polling station, that they were surrounded by local police (nice) and fearing the arrival of and forced entry by Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil (cu*ts). We’re at home watching images of police violence, and it’s obviously quite scary for my young family. They can hear shouts of ‘We will vote!’ from their primary school as well as police sirens and police helicopters (airspace is closed to civilians).

    Greatly appreciate all the good wishes from folk from Scotland by the way – w

  • reel guid

    The Spanish authorities’ coercive actions are simply Theresa May’s “Now is not the time” taken to the next level. The Scottish Parliament voted for a referendum to give the people of Scotland the right to decide whether or not we want our country ruined by leaving the EU and staying in the UK.

    If we proceed with a referendum against the sanction of Westminster then it will force the Tory government to either back down and cooperate with a second indyref or else to overtly supress democracy. The latter scenario would show for all to see what the British state is about.

  • reel guid

    The BBC News channel’s ticker tape describing the situation in Catalonia as “scuffles at polling stations” in the “banned referendum”.

    BBC speak for ‘we trust the good old police will restore law and order shortly’.

  • fred

    Catalonia is not and never has been a country, it has not been colonised and is not under military occupation, UN laws on rights of self determination just do not apply. The are a region, that is what they are recognised as by the UN and they are already one of the most autonomous regions of a country in the world with far more self determination than most.

    I would like the region I live in, which has not always been a part of Scotland, to have the ability to stop the Scottish government from overturning planning decisions made by our local government but we don’t. To claim our rights under international law were being infringed would however be ridiculous, we have an equal say in electing the Scottish government so we have self determination just as the people of Catelonia do.

    The Spannish government has not refused the people of Catalonia a referendum, the Catalonian government has denied the people of Spain a referendum, Spannish courts ruled that for a referendum to be legal and democratic it must include everyone.

    A referendum without the consent of the entire electorate and without legitimate international observers is meaningless.

    Nationalists use twisted logic and try to manipulate reality to match what they want to believe rather than base their beliefs on what is real. As what the result of a referendum a nationalist will only accept it as legitimate if it says wat they want it to say, it can never be a once and for all decision made by the people, it either agrees with them or was manipulated to give the wrong result.

    • Dave S

      Does that mean the whole EU should have had a vote on Britain leaving?

      What part of ‘self-determination’ is hard to grasp?

      • fred

        People who live in a democracy and can elect their own representative to the government of their country, are free to pursue their own economic and cultural destinies, have self determination. People who live in a country which has been colonised or is under military occupation by another country don’t have self determination. People who live in an autonomous region with the powers that Catalonia has are the people who have some of the most self determination in the world.

        • Dave S

          Ok, you clearly have no idea what the concept of ‘self-determination’ in international law actually means. Here’s a quick introduction:

          “It (self determination) states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.”

    • BSA

      That’s all academic Fred once the State decides to use force. Massive fail for Spain politically.

      • fred

        I don’t think anyone agrees with the use of force in any situation.

        That doesn’t mean people have the right to twist and misrepresent the meaning of terms in international law to further their own agendas.

        • Shatnersrug

          I have to say that every Spanish person grows up knowing the Police are thugs and will look for an excuse to start a fight so calling an illegal referendum would of course incite violence from the police. This is all part of the plan.

          Personally I think the whole thing is ridiculous. No one will ever get what they want as long as capitalism rules the day. Everything that is happening now has happened again and again all over the world once capitalism in unbound.

  • Loony

    There was a civil war in Spain between 1936 and 1939. This war ended in 1939 and Franco assumed power, and retained power until his death in 1975.

    In 1934 a Catalan declaration of independence led by Lluis Companys was crushed by force.

    As 1934 was before the rise of Franco it follows logically that any crushing of Catalan independence has precisely nothing to do with a return to “Francoist political roots” – but hey why let reality interfere with the opportunity for a good smear.

    • Stu

      “As 1934 was before the rise of Franco”

      He was one the most powerful Generals in Spain from the mid 20s onwards. 1934 is in no way before his “rise”.

      • Loony

        Most people accept that the Civil War was the mechanism by which Franco rose to power. You don’t accept that – well that is no problem as the point is that the suppression of Catalan independence precedes Franco. Therefore people that oppose Catalan independence are not necessarily Francoists or Fascists or any of the other pejorative terms heaped upon them.

        Take for example the Pact of Tortosa and the Proclamation of 1873 – which was another aborted attempt at Catalan independence. As Franco was not born until 1892 this could have had nothing to do with him – unless of course you now want to claim that Franco was one of the most powerful pre-embryo’s in the history of the world.

  • Paul Barbara

    ‘Sunday’s Catalonia Independence Referendum’:
    The Spanish Establishment and it’s puppet showing their continuing Franco/Fascist leanings, with Trump and the EU backing them.
    So not much chance the R2P will send in their proxy mercenaries in to ‘protect’ ‘Democracy’.
    As Craig said, and only an Establishment stooge or a brainwashed ‘sheeple’ would disagree, ‘…The hypocrisy of NATO governments is breathtaking (as always)….’
    Let’s hope that whatever the result of the Catalonian Referendum vote issue, the Spanish people realise they are still under the heel of Francoist Fascism, and vote in a truly Socialist government next opportunity.
    I believe the French, Italian and Greek police (and most of the US police) also are very similar to the ‘Guardia Civil’ Fascist leaning.
    Part of the ‘Operation Gladio’ planning.
    ‘Democracy’ is fine so long as the MSM are able to brainwash the people with Establishment propaganda, but when they fail, out come the batons.

    • reel guid

      If you’re too right wing even for Katie Hopkins then you’ve got to be fascist. Spain cannot be considered to be a democracy.

  • reel guid

    Grandparents being beaten by police in Catalonia for simply trying to stop ballot boxes being taken away.

    Jeremy Corbyn pretends it ain’t happening and tweets something about Right to Buy.

    • Republicofscotland

      reel guid.

      The Francoist regime is alive and well in Spain, the old guard dont want to lose Catalonia, so they must retain it by using violence.

      Closer to home scaremongering and deception and media propaganda were the tools of the day. The situation in Catalonia, in my opinion proves why broadcasting can never ever be devolved to Holyrood.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ reel guid October 1, 2017 at 11:22
      Give the guy a chance. With enemies ready to pounce on anything he says, he needs time to weigh the situation up and give a reasoned, not knee-jerk, response.
      Be interesting to see what May & Co. have to say about it, too.

      • reel guid

        He’s had a couple of weeks since the first reports of Madrid’s plans to stop democracy. If Corbyn can’t weigh up a situation in that time and say something then he’s not leadership material.

      • reel guid


        Yes they’re having a nice cosy game of housey-housey while Europe goes to the (fascist) dogs.

  • Republicofscotland

    Due the fascist violence of the Spanish government, including brutality and the firing of rubber bullets etc.

    Surely the Catalonian government must now publicly declare UDI, and hope the UN or EU step in to stop a slaughter in the region.

  • mog

    Compared to some, Craig’s version of the Catalan situation reads as simplistically binary to me.
    If the primary (or sole) defining factor in the cause of liberation is nationhood then this is what you get.
    Alternatively, viewing the situation through a class perspective reveals a much more complex scenario:

    The Catalan separatists represent the interest not of left-wing forces struggling against Spain’s financial aristocracy, but of factions of the ruling class advancing their interests against both the working class and the central government in Madrid.

    Shooting rubber bullets is a fascist response, that is undeniable, but what is it a response to?

    • Republicofscotland

      “Shooting rubber bullets is a fascist response, that is undeniable, but what is it a response to?”

      Self determination at the democratic ballot box.

        • Republicofscotland

          You just don’t get it do you?

          It doesn’t matter if yes or no wins, the democratic process over the matter has been demolished by a Spanish fascist bulldozer.

        • willyrobinson

          The guardian article highlights support for the Spanish Socialist party in the suburbs around Barcelona. This party is unionist in a similar way to the Labour Party in Scotland (It is also pseudo-left, similar to the Labour Party in Scotland).

        • Stu

          You have a point about Cataluyan chauvinism and business interests but like Scotland there are many left leaning people there who are tired of being electorally wed to a larger nation which is frankly full of voters with peasant or petit bourgeois mindsets.

          Independence for Scotland or Catalonia doesn’t guarantee a fairer society but allows an opportunity to create a framework to make a fairer society via democratic means. It also doesn’t mean the end of class solidarity. If class solidarity currently crosses borders created by elites it can cross borders created by the people.

    • willyrobinson

      The article you link to mog doesn’t really make sense. The only acceptable response to any situation is ‘workers of the world unite’? Good luck with that.

      As for your final sentence, I don’t know where to start…

    • Anon1

      All of the left-wing parties in Spain oppose independence. Catalonia wants to go it alone and be successful without the financial drain of having to prop up the rest of spain. It is the very antithesis of socialism to support that aim.

      • reel guid

        The ERC and the CUP are Catalan parties that are both left wing and pro-independence.

      • Christine Sinclair

        The Spanish government is riddled with corruption, it is not socialism that makes catalans want out. You act as though sharing everything you have is socialism, it isnt. Dont be so silly.

  • Paul Barbara

    If the British public (and other nations) are sickened by this show of over-the-top violence, then perhaps the Spanish tourism industry will face a hit next year, and even this year, for the folk who like to get a break from wintry weather.
    Good alternatives are Portugal and Greece; Morocco is out, too, for their continuing occupation of Western Sahara, and their inclusion in the Saudi Anti-Yemen Coalition.
    ¡Fuera Fascistas! ¡OTAN no! ¡Bases fuera!

    • giyane

      What about Turkey. Erdogan must have been told by Russia that the US plotted against him, but how long will he listen to Putin’s ‘ Heel Erdog! ‘

      • Paul Barbara

        @ giyane October 1, 2017 at 11:54
        Turkey is a bit ‘iffy’. I’m glad Erdogan survived the US/NATO ‘Gladio’ coup attempt, and cracked down hard, weeding out traitors in the military, police, judiciary, education etc. And let’s hope he pulls out of NATO, and builds a reasonable relationship with Russia (whilst dropping his ‘alliance’ with I*rael). And cleans up his Human Rights (Turkey has had an atrocious Human Rights situation since at least the first ‘Gladio’ coup in 1960.
        Still, it’s certainly a better time to visit Turkey than previously. Probably Egypt as well (sans ‘Muslim Brotherhood’).

        • Kat

          Erdogan is using the ‘fake’ coup to crack down on everyone, not just so called ‘traitors’. He will NEVER pull out of NATO. He will not ‘clean up his Human Rights’, he had the chance, he messed up. Turkey is owned. There is no way out for Turkey!

          • Paul Barbara

            @ Kat October 2, 2017 at 10:53
            Have you ever heard of ‘Gladio’? Ever heard of the ‘Grey Wolves’? The first 3 coups were spearheaded by CIA’s Gladio forces, and so was the last, unsuccessful one.

  • My Cocaine

    “As paramilitary forces are looking today to prevent crowds of solid and peaceful citizens from voting, the entire political Establishment across the European Union has declared on the side of the paramilitaries.”

    And yet, a week or so ago, you declared that anybody who voted to leave the EU was a racist…

    What’s it to be, Mr Murray?

    Can you see now why people like myself, who support Scottish independence, but also want to get away from that nest of vipers in Brussels, are not surprised in the least that the EU would close ranks with Spain…

    • Paul Barbara

      @ My Cocaine October 1, 2017 at 12:23
      Agree the ‘nest of vipers’; the EU has shown it’s true colours – thank God we voted OUT!. And I certainly am not racist.

  • Isabel Cooney

    It’s a sad day today for democracy in Europe and I feel so very sad for the brave people of Catalonia who are being brutally assaulted by Spanish police.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ Isabel Cooney October 1, 2017 at 12:29
      The brutality would be a lot worse if they were not under the international spotlight.

      • willyrobinson

        Some of the stories are pretty rough though. Just got an audio message with the following from a woman in Girona (my translation):

        ‘Laura, listen carefully to this and explain it to everyone – I was defending old people with my arms open, nothing more than that because they were hitting kids, they were hitting old people. They threw me down the stairs and threw things at me and broke the bones in my hand on purpose, one by one. Halfway down the stairs with my clothes askew they felt my breasts and laughed and they hit me…’

        • Paul Barbara

          @ willyrobinson October 1, 2017 at 13:06
          I suggest you put that in as many MSM comments as possible; I’ll spread it to my contacts. I won’t use your ‘avatar’, unless you want me to. I presume your name is Laura?

          • Paul Barbara

            @ willyrobinson October 1, 2017 at 13:37
            Please let us know soon as pos; their will hopefully be plenty of opportunities to spread it around.

  • Loony

    Spain will not allow Catalan secession and Spain will pay any and every price to achieve this objective.

    Anyone expressing surprise or shock or sadness or anger at current events are simple idiots. It was always going to end this way. There was no other possible outcome, and if the Catalans do not see sense then the situation will escalate. Spain will not surrender and Spain will not compromise.

    Far from being fascist oppressors the government of Spain is acting to represent the expressed interests of the people of Spain and they will continue to do so hasta la muerte.

  • Anon1

    All of the left-wing parties in Spain oppose independence. Catalonia wants to go it alone and be successful without the financial drain of having to prop up the rest of spain. It is the very antithesis of socialism to support that aim .

  • kailyard rules

    “…pus the entire mainstream media,…” A typo there no doubt, but very apt none the less.

  • Anon1

    The only interest the Scots nats have in this is they think it will help their little pet cause if the Catalans gain independence.

    The big differences are:

    The Catalans actually want independence.
    The Scots had a referendum and they voted against independence.
    Catalonia has a very strong economic case for independence.

    • Christine Sinclair

      Scotland has oil, fishing, gas, farming, whisky, gin, renewables between 5.3 million people. England has what? between 50 million. Banking and finance is going to be hit with Brexit, as is car manufacturing. Scotland came from 20% to 45% under the enslaught of the biased 98% unionist media propaganda and even after purdah we got the vow which turned into evel as soon as the result was in. Thats if the postal votes were not rigged, which the jury is out on. Little pet cause has turned into the unions bete noir. Scotland has an even stronger case for indy, we are a country not a region. The big difference is that the catalans have their own television channels. Scotland wont be far behind, but I can see that Westminster could react like this, they have the same morals and principles as the Spanish government

  • Loony

    How surprising to note that a toxic combination of mendacity and ignorance seeks to draw parallels with Scottish independence and Catalan independence.

    It is the case that with regard to Scotland the ruling elites are strongly in favor of a maintenance of the union. This is simply one more view that puts them at odds with the general population. Most people in England simply do not care whether Scotland is independent. There is no popular demand from England to prevent Scotland from doing or not doing anything it wants to do or not do.

    Contrast this with Spain. The people of Spain are not prepared to tolerate Catalan independence and the government is acting to give meaning to their expressed views.

    I very much doubt whether the people of England (and Scotland) would be prepared to tolerate independence for London and the south east of England.

    • J

      “I very much doubt whether the people of England (and Scotland) would be prepared to tolerate independence for London and the south east of England.”

      Have you ever been north of the midlands?

    • reel guid


      Davidson call for the Spanish authorities to “exercise restraint”.

      Meaning of course that she slyly agrees with the suspension of Catalan democracy. She just doesn’t want too many embarrassing scenes in the process.

      • reel guid

        Also “fast moving situation” is a military term. She just cannae stop playing sojers in her heid that one.

  • Aim Here

    In case you still have any doubts about the fascist inclinations of the anti-Independence movement, here’s a video from yesterday’s main anti-Independence protest in Barcelona. The organizers appear to have laid on a recording of the old Falange Party’s fascist anthem ‘Cara al Sol’, and the marchers responded with a singalong, and fascist straight-arm salutes. The fash here look distressingly like ordinary middle-class Spaniards, rather than any usual fascist stereotype.

      • Kerch'ee Kerch'ee Coup

        Are they perhaps really Castilian nationalists a little confused in their identities?

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Aim Here October 1, 2017 at 13:10
        That would make sense, but they were almost certainly protesting against the Catalan Referendum.
        As you say, it shows their true colours.

    • frankywiggles

      Yes, fascists in Spain are as likely to be well-to-do as not. Remember the pictures of masses of yuppies in Barbour jackets and fur coats abusing England’s black players at the Bernabeau?

  • Paul Barbara

    I imagine a lot of you, like myself, are unaware of Catalan history, so here’s a brief overview:
    There attempts for independence or at least autonomy go back a very long way.
    They were Republican (Against Franco) in the Fascist armed insurrection, which created a barbaric ‘Civil War’ and Fascist Dictatorship for decades.
    These ‘Guardia Civil’ are the inheritors of Franco’s fascistic policies. Unfortunately, the same type of ‘weltanschauung’ is latent in many if not most police forces in the West, and in many other societies.

      • reel guid


        And before some anti-referendum idiot pipes up and says that they’re only using rubber bullets.
        Rubber bullets can and do kill.

        • Loony

          That is the idea. Welcome to the real world.

          The Spanish are absolutely prepared to kill as many people as is necessary to ensure the unity of Spain. What has Catalan independence got to do with you and why are you cheer leading for a cause that will end in bloodshed?

          This is not a game. This is life and death and Spain will not surrender.

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