I was caught in a twitterstorm of hatred yesterday, much of it led by mainstream media journalists like David Aaronovitch and Dan Hodges, for daring to suggest that the basic elements of Boshirov and Petrov’s story do in fact stack up. What became very plain quite quickly was that none of these people had any grasp of the detail of the suspects’ full twenty minute interview, but had just seen the short clips or quotes as presented by British corporate and state media.
As I explained in my last post, what first gave me some sympathy for the Russians’ story and drew me to look at it closer, was the raft of social media claims that there was no snow in Salisbury that weekend and Stonehenge had not been closed. In fact, Stonehenge was indeed closed on 3 March by heavy snow, as confirmed by English Heritage. So the story that they came to Salisbury on 3 March but could not go to Stonehenge because of heavy snow did stand up, contrary to almost the entire twittersphere.
Once there was some pushback of truth about this on social media, people started triumphantly posting the CCTV images from 4 March to prove that there was no snow lying in Central Salisbury on 4 March. But nobody ever said there was snow on 4 March – in fact Borisov and Petrov specifically stated that they learnt there was a thaw so they went back. However when they got there, they encountered heavy sleet and got drenched through. That accords precisely with the photographic evidence in which they are plainly drenched through.
Another extraordinary meme that causes hilarity on twitter is that Russians might be deterred by snow or cold weather.
Well, Russians are human beings just like us. They cope with cold weather at home because they have the right clothes. Boshirov and Petrov refer continually in the interview to cold, wet feet and again this is borne out by the photographic evidence – they were wearing sneakers unsuitable to the freak weather conditions that were prevalent in Salisbury on 3 and 4 March. They are indeed soaked through in the pictures, just as they said in the interview.
Russians are no more immune to cold and wet than you are.
Twitter is replete with claims that they were strange tourists, to be visiting a housing estate. No evidence has been produced anywhere that shows them on any housing estate. They were seen on CCTV camera walking up the A36 by the Shell station, some 400 yards from the Skripals’ house, which would require three turnings to get to that – turnings nobody saw them take (and they were on the wrong side of the road for the first turning, even though it would be very close). No evidence has been mentioned which puts them at the Skripals’ House.
Finally, it is everywhere asserted that it is very strange that Russians would take a weekend break holiday, and that if they did they could not possibly be interested in architecture or history. This is a simple expression of anti-Russian racism. Plainly before their interview – about which they were understandably nervous – they prepared what they were going to say, including checking up on what it was they expected to see in Salisbury because they realised they would very obviously be asked why they went. Because their answer was prepared does not make it untrue.
That literally people thousands of people have taken to twitter to mock that it is hilariously improbable that tourists might want to visit Salisbury Cathedral and Stonehenge, is a plain example of the irrationality that can overtake people when gripped by mob hatred.
I am astonished by the hatred that has been unleashed. The story of Gerry Conlon might, you would hope, give us pause as to presuming the guilt of somebody who just happened to be of the “enemy” nationality, in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Despite the mocking mob, there is nothing inherently improbable in the tale told by the two men. What matters is whether they can be connected to the novichok, and here the safety of the identification of the microscopic traces of novichok allegedly found in their hotel bedroom is key. I am no scientist, but I have been told by someone who is, that if the particle(s) were as the police state so small as to be harmless to humans, they would be too small for mass spectrometry analysis and almost certainly could not be firmly identified other than as an organophosphate. Perhaps someone qualified might care to comment.
The hotel room novichok is the key question in this case.
Were I Vladimir Putin, I would persuade Boshirov and Petrov voluntarily to come to the UK and stand trial, on condition that it was a genuinely fair trial before a jury in which the entire proceedings, and all of the evidence, was open and public, and the Skripals and Pablo Miller might be called as witnesses and cross-examined. I have no doubt that the British government’s desire for justice would suddenly move into rapid retreat if their bluff was called in this way.
As for me, when I see a howling mob rushing to judgement and making at least some claims which are utterly unfounded, and when I see that mob fueled and egged on by information from the security services propagated by exactly the same mainstream media journalists who propagandised the lies about Iraqi WMD, I see it as my job to stand in the way of the mob and to ask cool questions. If that makes them hate me, then I must be having some impact.
So I ask this question again – and nobody so far has attempted to give me an answer. At what time did the Skripals touch their doorknob? Boshirov and Petrov arrived in Salisbury at 11.48 and could not have painted the doorknob before noon. The Skripals had left their house at 09.15, with their mobile phones switched off so they could not be geo-located. Their car was caught on CCTV on three cameras heading out of Salisbury to the North East. At 13.15 it was again caught on camera heading back in to the town centre from the North West.
How had the Skripals managed to get back to their home, and touch the door handle, in the hour between noon and 1pm, without being caught on any of the CCTV cameras that caught them going out and caught the Russian visitors so extensively? After this remarkably invisible journey, what time did they touch the door handle?
I am not going to begin to accept the guilt of Boshirov and Petrov until somebody answers that question. Dan Hodges? David Aaronovitch? Theresa May? Anybody?
Stripping out the journalese and those previously posed questions about the timing specifics of the Salisbury visits, Mr Murray’s latest post was a request for scientifically-accurate clarification about the novichok found in the hotel room. The one new question here is specifically about the limits of mass spectrography.
A quick flick through the hundreds of comments already made (and surely, therefore, thousands including the deletions) suggests everyone else on here missed that one.
I therefore doubt it is worthwhile going into the details at this time. Nobody else noticed the question and/or would not understand, and Mr Murray will not be reading it.
Suffice it to say, Mr Murray’s scientist friend was incorrect about the near-impossibility of doing other than identify it as an organophosphate in such a small sample. Perhaps the wrong question was asked, in all fairness to the scientist friend.
I suppose that somebody could simply ask Yulia where it was that she and her father went that morning and if in fact they did return home after noon. Simple questions seem to be beyond the wit of those involved in the investigation.
And whether DS Nick Bailey (the Boy Scout who won’t lie) went along as a minder or guard or discrete observer, whether he ever touched the Skripal’s door knob, or inventoried Yulia’s fallen purse, and where he thinks he got exposed to agent.
Yes.
At-the-ready DS Bailey.
Now where is he at?
Exactly, the Skripal’s could shed light on the matter, (with at least regards to timing) but the British government are keeping them sedated in a remote oubliette.
>>MP writes: I eagerly await the UK government revealing their real identities.
Can you not give the Deep State a bit of credit here for being truthful when they say they know the true identities of the duo? True, it is not rocket science since they were literally traveling under their true names. (No one would give a false name on a tv show with a billion people watching — they’d have to have been raised by wolves to get away with that.)
You must understand the State cannot divulge the true names of the named duo without truly compromising the lives of truly deep copy-writers within the FCO and indeed jeopardizing the lives of all who truly love freedom in the Free World?
@ Tom Smythe writes: “Can you not give the Deep State a bit of credit here for being truthful when they say they know the true identities of the duo?”
Where have the police said they know the true identities? The Met statement (Neil Basu) suggests they don’t really know. They just have the travel docs information:
“It is likely that they were travelling under aliases and that these are not their real names. We would like to hear from anyone who knows them. We are releasing these photographs of them, from the travel documents they used to enter the country.”
“We would like to hear from anyone who knows them”
Well we have – from the horse’s mouth. And No.10’s response? ‘Blatant lies’ according to today’s Guardian. That’s alright though. It’s even reassuring in way. So long as the authorities properly understand the concept they’ll be more careful in future about telling them, lies that is. Plausible denial enjoyed by those fond of ‘informing the house’ does not conceal the nature of any deceitful information they may claim to have been given in good faith.
“It is likely that they were travelling under aliases and that these are not their real names”.
As I often have occasion to say these days, when a government official says “likely” you should read that as meaning “untrue”.
That bit has been leaked to the press and published numerous times. Unless you believe British reporters fabricate stories out of whole cloth? I did not source police for this but rather the Toff State. The higher the pay grade, the more they fabricate.
” raised by wolves ”
Yes it’s called torture rendition chemical brain-washing normal practise in this fascist state.
There is a huge brain-washing operation conducted by the UK medical practitioners in psychiatry.
If a patient questions sexual freedom as a basic principle of human life, they are given Lithium radio=active drugs to re-educate them into neo-liberal values. This is everyday practice. Zap them with drugs.
There is no other choice in the stazi medical profession of the West
https://twitter.com/i/status/1038438152703279107
“Alex Vassiliev, journalist and expert on the history of Russian espionage, on his doubts about the #Salisbury poisoning suspects.”
2018-09-08
As if it couldn’t get any madder:
“A lingering saga of the mystery hole leaking precious air from the International Space Station is far from over, as drill scratches have been discovered on the station’s anti-meteorite plating.”
https://www.rt.com/news/438443-iss-soyuz-drill-scratch/
We’re getting into James Bond territory here again: ”The Spy Who Loved Me’ (released in 1977) was the first movie where Bond went into outer space. Interestingly (or perhaps boringly) it was the first Bond movie that did not feature the movie title in it’s theme song, which was Carly Simon’s ‘Nobody Does It Better’. Here’s Simon performing the song at Matha’s Vineyard way back when…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaV-6qerkqI
Apologies for all this trivia. It’s my way of dealing with the utter bullshit and corruption of a collapsing British government (and all the attendant stuff from the police, security services, etc, most of whom are criminal psychopaths).
Lets not forget Moonraker, and Bond’s jaunt into space, to thwart Hugo Drax (Putin) from releasing a deadly nerve agent on planet Earth. ?
To me, personally, the disheartening shocker today was reading a story on Counterpunch about the nefarious background of astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/14/neil-degrasse-tyson-a-celebrity-salesman-for-the-military-industrial-complex/
I also read that piece and it was really depressing! I wonder what would Carl Sagan, deGrasse Tyson’ s mentor, say and think about his jingoistic, American supremacist, warmonger pupil from the poor quarters of the Bronx?
It was the first film I saw at the cinema. “We don’t make mistakes of that sort”. “You sound just like a Russian”
At the danger of veering off course (seriously, not a jibe at Messrs Borisov & Petrov), Carly Simon’s Bond theme actually does include the movie’s title in the theme song:
But like heaven above me the spy who loved me
Is keepin’ all my secrets safe tonight.
And Bond went skiing; he even went underwater in a car; but he didn’t go into space. Not in that one.
Nitrous McBread, I’m always happy to be corrected. It was the escape pod at the end of the movie (strongly reminiscent of the Apollo missions) that made me think of space flight.
I would like to add some information I found in a comment on the zerohedge site. To paraphrase: Do you recall Sherlock’s the Dog That Didn’t Bark, then you should be aware that we have a similar case in the Ducks That Didn’t Die.
For the unfortunate two took some time after touching the deadly doorknob to feed bread to ducks at the local pond. The ducks should be dead. They are not. May’s entire story is a travesty of lies IMO. I propose a new MO, follow the ducks:)
(My apologies if someone else has already pointed this out).
How do you know the ducks aren’t dead?
I check in with them by text every morning.
Because the world’s press would be a twitter with cries and moans for the poor dear ducks done in by the evil Kremlin.
Because I’ve read their recent quacks on quacker.
Fact.
Maybe they put a D notice on the Ducks.
Not only the ducks should be dead.
Skripal at 13:45 handed some bread to three young boys at the pond, who ate some themselves and fed the rest to the ducks.
Police identified the boys and Skripal on CCTV, but only 2 weeks later informed the parents of one of the boys (who could have died in the meantime, because Skripal was supposed to have “Novichok” on his hands.
Lets look. LD50 of VX stated as 7ug/kg in rats (if you believe wikipedia ). Let’s assume these figures are similar for Novichok. For a typical adult at 80kg that would be 560ug, which is approx similar to a grain of sugar may half a grain of sugar. Now remembering back to my mass spectrometry lecturer, I remember him stating how it’s extremely sensitive at the pico and possibly even femto gram level. So If it was there just below LD I think it’s plausible it could be detected. However it’s likely not neat Novichok and diluted. Plus apparently it is 10x more potent than VX but that’s all heresay Unless there’s published data.
However what is less likely is that the Novichok stated as the one used in Skripal poisoning is an imine which is a particular type of molecule which is very unstable to any moisture. The substance would readily hydrolyse turning it into a precursor and not the active ingredient. That said it’s possible based on these precursors it’s highly likely you could claim it has been used as a Novichok substance.
One thing I think could be also plausible it that monofluorophosphate an an active ingredient in toothpaste has an identical substructure to the Novichok and in fact it is highly probable that Novichok could decompose back to this substructure. You don’t think all this time they’ve been detecting a substance readily found in hotel room in on most people in trace quantities and claiming it’s a precursor of Novichok???
Also as an organometallic synthetic chemist at uni. It would be very easy for any non state lab to prepare this very simple molecule Novichok using very easily obtainable precursors which would be in most synthetic chemistry laboratory. Plus using a glove box and inert atmosphere techniques a safe synthesis could easily be carried out without doubt. No special lab would be required. I’m not saying a non state lab has prepared the novichok however the government rhetoric and false claims that it could only be Russia is what opened my eyes to all the lies.
” You don’t think all this time they’ve been detecting a substance readily found in hotel room in on most people in trace quantities and claiming it’s a precursor of Novichok???”
That sounds about right for Theresa, Boris and their Keystone Cops.
Yup, the massaging of facts and evidence by the authorities has never been more cavalier. Wire, AA batteries and household bleach are now reported as bomb making materials, the freely downloadable and comically useless ‘Anarchists Cookbook’ is a terrorist manual – doubtless the presence toothpaste has now extended that vista. Yet no-one is held accountable for these exaggerated claims that allow the police to bandstand they have foiled umpteen ‘plots’. The number of people arrested for so-called terrorist offences is at a record high, but only a tiny few actually end up being charged with a terrorism offence and an even smaller number end up in jail as a result of the deceptive game the police are playing. The icing on the cake was the guy held on remand on aiding terrorism charges for sending his cousin in Afghanistan a pair of stout boots, as reported by former MP, Bob Marshall-Andrews.
Well familiar with that of which you speak, and you are absolutely spot on, mate.
Careful Jon, you don’t want to give too much away on here. That statement was not intended to amuse, frighten or provoke any reply (whether from the trolls or anyone else).
Very seriously I’d advise not sailing too close to the wind on here.
Apologies if Grandma and eggs are suggested.
Just now, trying to explain about mass spectrometry on here, which is Murray’s topic du jour , I realised you either know this stuff or you don’t. It’s a paradox of sorts, but unless you are possessed of preternatural pedagogic power, you cannot really explain, certainly not concisely.
Well, let’s not forget that according to the British government and OPCW A-234 was still in its pristine pure state 3 weeks after the poisoning. How do you explain that?
Air tight container? Depends also what the solvent is or how it’s “formulated”.
the container was human body. The blood was drawn weeks after the ‘poisoning’. OPCW found highly concentrated pure A-234 and traces of BZ.
Yes very true, thought you were talking about the traces found in the recent hotel search. now back to my toothpaste theory ?
We are being told a lot of cock and bull
Basically Novichok 232 would hydrolyse or even be metabolised in the body no doubt about it. And people may laugh ? but what could it hydrolyse or metabolise to?
It also suggests that novichok is 10 times more toxic than VX.
Also a chemist. You are missing one vital ingredient. Some toxic chemicals have to be physically swallowed to have any effect. Nerve gases do not. They are toxic on contact. That is the point – that is why they have a potential military application. They can kill troops quickly. There is no point in having substances that only disable.
Your comment about toothpaste is bizarre. You should have listened more carefully in lectures. Still an undergrad? Yes, it shows.
Monofluorophosphate is an inorganic anion. Organophosphate is not (clue’s in the name and you call yourself a chemist?!)
Mass spec works by breaking down compounds into smaller chunks, not just one chunk. There is no way that they could mistake toothpaste for nerve agent!
I think the only gases on here are due to flatulence.
I am not a chemist, nor a linguist, nor a mathematician, nor a lawyer, nor an IT technician, nor a philosopher, nor….
I do have an undergraduate degree in philosophy with modern and medieval languages from Cambridge, a PGDL/BVC (never practised), MCSE and on (is there anything duller than IT?), and a slightly disappointing upper second as a hobby OU degree in mathematics.
On the other hand I’m really interested in electronics, linguistics, musicology and history & philosophy of science. Chemistry is my main “scientific” interest with mathematical/theoretical physics a close second.
If that wasn’t pompous and self-aggrandising enough, I’ll also point out that I’m a great cook (I did six months under Christian Delteil in the early 90s), cycling, and collecting light bulbs. I detest politics and nowadays loathe travel.
I’m also not a military expert, but believe most “nerve gases” are in fact aerosols (so, liquids.) I’ve also heard tell of quite a few incapacitating agents like tear gas, BZ and some vesicants that are specifically active on inhalation (so not toxic by skin/eye contact, in fact not “toxic” at all). Agents that disable would be and are of extremely wide military application, and much effort has been made to develop them, albeit largely unsuccessfully.
“Mass spec” doesn’t break anything down; it involves measurement of mass to charge ratios by subjecting ions to electric fields.
Toothpaste I agree may be a red herring, but I took the point to suggest that a willful conflation of the m/c of fluorophosphate- and organophosphorus functional groups might not be beyond the mendacity of HMG.
I don’t think you get many chemists on here, unless they forgot to switch the fume cupboard on when trying to turn mercury into gold.
Funnily enough I was pouring mercury in a fume hood just the other week at a customers and luckily I did it in a fume hood. But I’m still just as mad.
? but just have to respond. Not on here to argue and all but I said monofluorophosphate is a substructure of the Novichok 232 as somebody mentioned the specific type. Is this incorrect? Please compare the structures.
I am aware it’s indeed an inorganic anion. I never stated it had organic groups.
I am also aware mass spectrometry measures “the mass spectrum” (actually incorrect as as the other guy says it’s the mass to charge ratio, spectrum so if doubly charged you detect at half the mass …),of molecules in an analysis. There are many ways of doing this in terms of the ionisation and deflection using high power magnets or quadrupole magnets, you can even use time of flight …….
Let’s assume they use a harsh technique such as electron impact ionisation. The molecule as you didn’t quite use the correct terminonology it Fragments not breaks down during the lifetime of the analysis. If you ionise by electron impact this leads to a radical cation initially the M+• or Molecukar Ion. The M+• can rearrange and it fragment. So if you take a mass spectrum of a pure compound you see a m/z spectrum with a fragmentation pattern. Typically the molecular Ion is seen at highest m/z (if it’s stable enough) with an isotope pattern corresponding to its elemental makeup and isotopic abundance.
So for instance Novichok, it is very likely the mass spectrum would contain a fragment Ion that would resemble the mass and isotope pattern of a fragment of monofluorophosphate. ( if you were bright enough you’d say all elements of monofluorophosphate have only one majorly abundant isotope so you wouldn’t see much isotope pattern.
Is that not reasonable?
Not at all, even more so if the “organophosphate” had hydrolysed to the phosphate di-anion.
I think there’s nothing wrong with that
By crikey, you have been at the heavy metals, eh?
From your excellent written English, it appears you were largely unaffected (though you committed a slight non sequitur right at the end) , and your knowledge of physical chemistry remains astonishingly intact and your arguments quite reasonable.
I do think techniques other than mass spectrometry could and would be brought to bear (assuming of course you want to know more about the structure of the sample). For example, analysis of microwave spectra using a coupled-level reduced axis system Hamiltonian will yield zero-point torsional splittings at certain resonant frequencies; these could be guessed at depending on the likely functional groupings. Time consuming, lots of guesswork but doable. Even gas phase chromatography might be useful and considerably quicker; the vapour pressures of sarin, tabun, and soman (but not VX) all permit of this technique for analysis, assuming you have a reference standard to hand. I don’t think the VP of novichok-234 is in the literature however!
But… this is all cloud cuckoo land, as no such assays were ever needed if it is the fairy story it appears.
I’ve no experience of microwave spectroscopy but it’s not typically something used for characterisation of organic simple molecules I don’t think. On the other hand vibrational spectroscopy in the mid infra-red region is typically used to identify functionality and if a library of reference samples is available chemometrics can be used to match a spectrum to a reference spectrum like a fingerprint. With the advancement of Raman spectroscopy over the years particularly with surface enhanced Raman the low detection limits wouldn’t be a problem. In fact the phosphate stretching vibrations would have quite high extinction. GC would also require a reference standard to match retention time of analyte to reference. But all tools together add weight to unequivocally characterise.
However if this substance was never anywhere near salisbury all our talk is just pointless. I think there was no Novichok personally if it is as potent as claimed those in contact wouldn’t have made it off of the doorstep.
You don’t think all this time they’ve been detecting a substance readily found in hotel room in on most people in trace quantities and claiming it’s a precursor of Novichok???
The Birmingham Six were convicted on the basis of forensic evidence which their trial had heard was “99% accurate” in showing two of them had handled explosives – they tested positive for nitroglycerine. Years later they were freed when the appeal court heard that nitroglycerine was present in many innocent household objects, including a coating on the playing cards the men had handled shortly before their arrest.
At the Court of Appeal in 1980, Denning as Master of the Rolls made a some strong points about the consequences of success of the action brought by the Six, which is worth quoting here.
If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous…That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, “It cannot be right that these actions should go any further”
This apparently good point that was later shown to be erroneous with better forensics and less hysteria.
Denning has been widely criticised for this judgement, but I believe him to have been an honest and good man, but that he too had been duped by the State. I met him around 1990 with a group of law students, and he seemed genuinely kind but deeply wise and utterly lacking in any fakery. He was I think blinded by his anomalously naïve faith in innate goodness. God knows what he would have made of all this Skripal bullshit.
FAO Borncynical
I’d still like to make some sense of the link you came up with earlier. In the meantime here is evidence that DS was not above wearing trousers when the fancy took her: https://eklist.com/charlie-rowley-dawn-sturgess-1001/
Expanding the picture somewhat, this from the Daily Fail of 15 March (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5503151/Police-probing-Russians-caught-CCTV-Skripal-poisoning.html)
“Spy poisoning police ‘are hunting two Russian lovers who were spotted on CCTV in Salisbury as the Skripals fell ill – then fled Britain the same night'”
Was B&P’s ‘little secret’ already out therefore?
Nothing of the sort.
The Police were ‘said to be trying to identify a blonde and a dark-haired man on CCTV’
And now I notice that the trousers DS is wearing while reclining for that photograph are exactly the same colour as those worn by the mystery blonde with the red bag. What a coincidence?
Hi Doodlebug
Sorry to get to this message only now. I lead a sad life (lol) and have been trawling through the posts on here for about three hours now (fitting my evening meal in the middle somewhere!) and have just reached here. The end is in sight – hooray. Anyway, I have read your previous post. Do try accessing the website through the post from ‘Jack’ …it may well work. In the meantime, yes, that is the picture of Dawn that features on the inaccessible website. There are also images where facial pictures of Charlie and Dawn are gradually superimposed on the CCTV images and the very similar features are highlighted. Maybe I’m gullible but it went some way to convincing me that Charlie and Dawn were the CCTV couple, which, as it happened, I had theorised anyway just from seeing the various pictures myself.
Cheers
J.
Hello and thank you. I might struggle to find that post from ‘Jack’ at this distance in time, what with comments coming thick and fast (I too live a sad, aka regular, life). No matter. I think we’re agreed on the photographic correspondence of DS with mystery blonde and why. My next task is to look for anything amidst CR’s tales of woe which might suggest the perfume package at Amesbury was not the first of its kind he had handled.
Regards
M.
Hi Doodlebug
At the risk of being irritating and repeating myself unnecessarily (from your point of view), as I said way back in these reams of comments the original post from @Jack is on:
“The Holes in the Official Skripal Story” thread
page 4
just below @Jack’s post (primary comment, so posted in chronological order) at 21.14 (on 13 July)
Best of luck with your research! I shall look out for anything you might come up with.
atb
J.
Star man! Softly, softly catchee monkey. More anon I dare say.
Regards
M.
Found it. Tried it. Nothing visible save adverts (which when I looked just now included Nina Ricci premier du jour!)
As I say, never mind, I’ve found the matching trousers at least.
Regards
M.
Well said Craig.
I for one found the two reasonable in everything they said in their interview, and the ridicule they have received from people absurd. State sponsored racism, Westminster is making unreasonable expressions of hate accepted rhetoric. I find the speculation about their private lives, which are none of our business, distasteful.
That is not to say anything about guilt or otherwise, but their story stacks up a lot better than the uk government’s.
You should also note that the snow in Britain is not quite the same as it is elsewhere – ours is WET, and the climate cold and humid, which makes it feel colder. Sleet snow slush icy wet foggy dirty changeable thawing freezing – just in one day, and we can barely deal with it because it is unpredictable. Yes, snow in the likes of Russia might be worse, but it’ll be consistent – you can probably clear your drive and it’ll last a week, bet the trains still run, and you can likely wear canvas shoes without getting your feet wet. I would not expect a visitor to understand the enormity of britain’s mild weather, particularly in the winter.
As for submitting themselves to a fair trial in the uk, I wouldn’t advise it, there wouldn’t be much chance of it being fair at this stage of publicity. Also, although these figures are very much anecdotal (so a pinch of salt needed), they are the best I have been able to find so far for comparing wrongful imprisonment by country. The numbers in England are so large by quite a margin though: I would not trust the English criminal justice system when England is only second to the US for poor performance:
Wrongful convictions – numbers by country
http://www.medilljusticeproject.org/wrongful-convictions/
Contrary
Very interesting stats. But we all know what the UK’s ironic explanation would be: “Well, of course, the stats are misleading: the US and UK admit to wrong convictions because they believe in justice unlike other countries!” HaHa.
As to the wimpy Russians deterred by a little snow response. I am a Canadian. I know about snow. It shows a lot in Ottawa. We have a huge investment in snowclearing equipment, both city-owned and rented from private contractors (most Ottawa roofers and gardeners do snow removal in the winter.) I’ve lived in Moscow where there is also a considerable investment in snow removal. Therefore a few centimetres of snow is no big deal in Ottawa because we have millions of dollars of equipment and years of experience.
I have been in Washington D.C. where a couple of cm of snow practically stopped everything.
It’s not wimpy Russians stopped by a bit of snow, it’s that Salisbury and Wiltshire do not have the investment in equipment to deal with what would be a trivial amount of snow in Ottawa or Moscow.
It’s rather depressing to see how STUPID many of these comments are.
Comments in the media I should say, not on this site.
Stupid sells, stupid buys.
I have laughed with/at Lithuanian labourers as they complained about the cold here in the British Isles. I said “But surely it must get much colder than this back in your home country?” They invariably replied (through chattering teeth) that the cold here is “different” – i.e. damp.
So I guess it’s not the cold – it’s the humidity.
Very good points and having faced attacks from these people myself in the past, I salute you standing up to them. It matters not a wit to the government wether their fantasy story is believed or not. We can go on for years refuting it with the facts. They are intent on war. That is clear and the propaganda will continue to prepare the peoples minds for it. We have to keep struggling to reveal the facts, to show them for what they are. but the question becomes, as they continue despite that, what can be done make turn away from a war they seem to desperately need. But in waiting for an answer to that question, my respects for your courage and the determination.
Christopher Black,
Barrister
International criminal lawyer
Counsel list, ICC
Exec member, Canadian Peace Congress
Former defence counsel ICTY ad ICTR.
Canada
Wow. I respectfully salute you.
Likewise. Mr Black has written some brilliant articles and is not afraid to stand up for the truth.
Mr Black, I believe that you highlight an absolutely crucial point – that the regime does not care that its lies are transparent to those who think. This is because the voices of truth are easily drowned out by the blaring of professional war propaganda. Once the regime successfully initiates the war and the killing starts, then the truth of how we got there will become irrelevant.
What’s wrong with Bashirov and Petrov’s interview? Their speech features (vulgar words) corresponds with what they tell. They seem to be a russian gay couple, one of them is from far province, they run a semi-legal or non-sertified business, selling sport nutrition/vitamines/additives.
I can easily guess they may also offer some kind of personal consultations on body forming ( I’m sorry for cinism, may be sexual services).
Yet, except for London Tower, BigBen and Bukingham Palace, the only one place in Britain known in Russia is Stonehege. It is a “must see” like pyramids in Egypt.
—-
My dear friends, I’m sorry for long abscence, also I had to unsubscribe from regular subscription, so I may have issues with ‘reply’ function.
I’m recovering from surgery and hope to join you again as soon as I’m fine again.
Hope you’re all OK and I wish you’re all having good time on this blog 🙂
Hey Tatyana, good to have you back
Charles Bostock was looking for you. 😉
Welcome back Tatyana. Feel free to also check out theblogmire.com whenever you get bored with some posters not sticking to the topic. They stick more to it over there. Hope you recover soon.
Thank you, PasserBy 🙂 i’ve got much time now to check your kind invitation 🙂
I was missing you, bj 🙂 and Charles, and SharpEars 🙂
Here in Russia we have a proverb ‘не дождетесь’. 🙂 a very rough translation is ‘my opponents have not as much time as to see me defeated’.
Best wishes and I hope you are much better soon.
There’s a lot of theories posted here, with many conflicting, but I think this lady’s thoughts summarises the whole affair…and her thoughts are reflected in each theory. Definitely a lack of truth out there.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fc1iipvzr4s
Thanks for that. I opened the link expecting something profound – did give me a laugh and very appropriate.
WHAT ABOUT YOUR VIEWS ON SCOTLAND CRAIG .WE ARE FIGHTING A MEDIA WAR THAT IS UNWINABLE AGAINST THE INSESUIST ESTABLISHMENT. AND BEING ROBBED BLIND
AYE YOURS FOR SCOTLAND
JOHN GALLAGHER EX ARGYLLS MAD MITCH 67
You’re right, yours has been the first actual analysis of the information available about the two accused Russians that I have seen. How were they identified in the first place? Regardless, and I’m not suggesting you’ve missed something, or that what you say is incorrect, I find myself running the image of the masked, armed men walking unchecked into the Crimea and Ukraine, where they have been replaced by unmasked Russian military. I see Putin smirking. I hear the reports of election tampering, elections swung; I hear there’s reliable evidence the source of interference is Russian. I see photos of Russian military lining the shores of the Arctic, Russian planes bombing hospitals in Syria. It’s hard to doubt the poisoning was done by any other nation no matter who or how. So even if these two, sports nutritionists with a hankering for cathedrals, are not guilty, they are wearing the guilt of their president. It’s wrong of us to ‘rush to judgement’ no doubt. And I have no doubt that ‘our side’ could have manufactured and manipulated evidence. It’s the constant lies and misinformation that drive me crazy and make me suspend logic and follow the actions of Vladimir Putin. He has a history of brutality (Chechnya, Syria) corruption, and snide contempt for the west especially. Poisoning opponents is right up his alley. Who else would want a former Russian spy silenced? Maybe the west for some reason, he might know too much about actions from this side. And in this mood we are clearly more than willing to believe their lies if that’s the case. It’s a mess, corruption and immorality seem to have become ‘normalized.’ It makes me very tired and very angry. But in the end your cool analysis is appreciated and I hope you’re able to come to a verifiable and logical conclusion, maybe ‘our side’ needs a jolt.
Chechnya
The CIA was using Islamists to undermine Soviet power. Islamism has suffered a cruel exposure when Russia revealed the continuous line of oil tankers delivering ISIS oil from Iraq to Turkey, and thence to Israel, Syria and the West. Putin , recognising the bad publicity of crushing CIA interference, decided to bomb the concrete bunkers Hillary Clinton was building for the jihadists in Syria.
Wah Wah. cry the jihadists, complaining that the West has refused to initiate a nuclear war against Russia.
For some reason best known to himself Craig has got all emotional about this couple being gay, pursuing cultured English pastimes in a gay way and feeling cold in a gay way. Since Craig once compared gayness with Islam as a form of life-style choice, I personally think Craig lacks moral definition, since Muslims worship God and gays worship eachothers’ anus.
This is a kind of BBC balance. So long as you see everything from the point of view of Zionism, other views can be expressed. Craig does not see the British military colonial aspirations, either when he was colonising Eastern Europe, nor now in the Middle East, as aggression against a superior religion and culture. He sees it in the lazy way most English people see it , as a necessary deliverance of a backward culture from its own stupidity so that it can learn Western superior ways. As with the Walrus and the Carpenter, shedding bitter tears for having to do it.
I still maintain that the purpose of USUKIS torture rendition was to brainwash Muslims . as is also done to British soldiers, away from their normal human aversion to brutality, and thus to deploy them as examples of Muslim backwardness. Craig is light years behind the curve on this and still clings to the ancient excuse of the Zionists , that the purpose of torture is to provide information. No the purpose of torture is to brain-wash.
These two Russians now look as though they are in the hire of Mrs May, not Putin, in order to construct some kind of accusation against Putin vis a vis chemical weapons.
I doubt anyone here is sympathetic to my frustration with English people, including Craig, failing to be offended by Western slander against Islam, and when Russia intervenes in defence of Islam. against the fabrications of the CIA and MI6, failing to understand that Russia ‘gets’ what they are totally incapable of understanding, i.e. that Islamism is an appalling colonial tool of the Zionist West.
I just finished reading this post, Craig, and want to fervently thank you for it. Bless your heart, and your working brain.
I haven’t decided whether to attempt to plow through the expected welter of comments here; I’ll have to become a much earlier riser here in Pennsylvania, USA, to keep up with these threads. 😉
It was appalling, though not surprising, to see UK officials like the odious buffoon Boris Johnson doubling down on their feigned skepticism and outrage– unless it’s not feigned, in which case they are manifestly mad as hatters.
For me, it’s becoming too aggravating to read comment threads about this ongoing folly. It struck me yesterday that the Skripal case has induced what I’m calling “Inspector Lestrade Syndrome”: far too many people are primed to superciliously begin with a knowing, smug “Aha!” or “Eureka!”– then. like Lestrade, firmly propose the most ludicrous and poorly-supported “solutions” to the latest turn in the mystery.
I commend your stalwart refusal to countenance, or be cowered by, the present hysterical mob mentality or groupthink in this affair. I don’t expect you’ll see this in the tsunami of comments, but I hope you do. Thanks much for all you do.
Funny, I seem to remember commenting on this very site, and before the RT interview, that Boshirov and Petrov most likely went to Salisbury for the same reasons as thousands of other tourists go, for its proximity to Stonehenge and its rich cultural history. Not only does Salisbury Cathedral possess the highest spire in England but Thomas Hardy featured in his novel Jude the Obscure. One of John Constable’s most famous paintings is also of Salisbury Cathedral. The funny bit is that my comment appeared to have been moderated, almost as if someone thought I was trying to make fun. I wasn’t, I was serious. And I am also serious about raising the question as to why Yulia Skripal was only questioned as a victim, and never as a suspect, as is normal police procedure in cases where there appear to have been no other witnesses on or around the scene apart from Sergei and Yulia Skripal, who, according to what we have been told, seem to have seen nobody suspicious at all.
“And I am also serious about raising the question as to why Yulia Skripal was only questioned as a victim”
One might ask the same question also with respect to Charlie Rowley, especially since the police were intent on classifying his partner’s death as ‘murder.’
News break on TalkRadio, saying that a Moscow spokesperson, has said that if the British invite both men over to Britain to give statements with regards to their reasons for being in England, that the Kremlin might allow both men to travel to Britain to do so.
perhaps i’m wrong but i thought i heard it the other way round, UK police have been invited over to Russia.
I don’t see why, as a point of principle, these two should go out of their way to placate the UK. They’ve already been victims of unwarranted intrusion into their personal lives by a ‘jounalist’ with an uncomfortably aggressive interviewing technique. However, if the money were right (Mr Putin?) setting foot inside the UK might goad the CPS into backing up their threats with ‘real’ arrest warrants. The ensuing trial should be good for a laugh.
if these two men are working for Mrs May , she can question them as long as she likes…
Reported by ITV Friday lunchtime.
Russia ‘will consider UK request to interview Salisbury suspects’
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-14/russia-will-consider-uk-request-to-interview-salisbury-suspects/
I suspect this argument has already been won in many of the the minds of everyone outside our (UK) “home turf”. What confuses me here is that none of this estimable line of analysis takes into account international factors especially the U.S. The UK cannot, will not wage unilateral war.
Geoffrey Wheatcroft’s review in London Review of Books of Azriel Bermsnt’s Margaret Thatcher and The Middle East is worth interesting. A few surprising facts in there.
Politicians used to be more robust than they are today
Could Bashirov and Petrov hire British lawyers to file a defamation suit against politicians and media?
The “Russian entity” Concord Management company hired US lawyers to defend against “election interference” charges, leading to a scramble by the Special Prosecutor to keep all the evidence secret.
The possibility of the two men coming to England to answer the case against them, is a mouth watering one to say the least, now that Moscow has hinted the men may make the journey.
If a court case ensued.
It would be up to the British to make a convinicing case against both men, and the Skirpal’s could even be called to give evidence. With several gaping holes in the British case, that can’t be easily plugged one wonders what the fall out would be, if the men were found not guilty.
I take it in England, one is still innocent until proven guilty?
Well, I’ve done jury service and come away thinking, “If that is ‘world’s finest legal system’ at work, I’d hate to see one of the bad ones!”
“Well, I’ve done jury service”
Me too. As you say, an eye-opening experience. Which is why I would suggest the pair secure a guarantee of financial indemnity from Vlad (since he, or at least the state system, seems to be directing the men’s actions). They could recruit the most able counsel available yet have the misfortune to be saddled with a hostile jury (which, come to think of it, is virtually inevitable). In truth I doubt they could be guaranteed a fair trial. On the plus side however, I doubt the CPS could marshall any genuine evidence against them. Even so the CPS itself has serious ‘form’ when it comes to bringing cases based upon no evidence whatsoever (e.g. the case brought against actor Michael Le Vell five years ago).
Not I. the case of P and B where she process seems to have been abadpndined on the assumption they will not leave Russia now.
This is what it SHOULD have said above: Not in the case of P and B where due process seems to have been abandoned on the assumption they will not leave Russia now.
“It would be up to the British to make a convincing case….”
Actually RoS, it wouldn’t. They haven’t made the case that Russia is responsible so far yet they have various countries backing them! It’s how it works here. This state trades in lies, lives and breathes lies. They have already been convicted through the ramblings of May, Boris and Co and the UK media is fully on board. If Putin allowed them to come here I’d be very surprised.
To all those complaining. I thought the editing was pretty good tonight. Most of my best posts are still there. Thank You. Tony
Have huge respect for the modding here. Best in the business.
Just in case, and before I go to bed, that wasn’t sarcastic or ironic. Generally, when I’ve been modded I was thinking I wish i I hadn’t said that anyway. YMMV. I don’t know for sure, but by now I think the Skripal incident is parochial – or more accurately a symptom not a cause.I’ll wake up more fully when we discuss the latter.
At first their alibi (i.e. arriving in London and immediately setting off for the ‘sticks’ without taking in London first) seemed about as far-fetched as me flying to Moscow and immediately heading off to see Yasnaya Polyana. But then, thinking about it again, I realised it quite likely is what I’d do . . .
Thanks Craig. You are doing what proper journalists used to do.
Now a few random thoughts:
1) Govts lie as a matter of course. Here there are two of them involved. Why would we expect the truth from either side?
2) The Britgov version has gaps and inconsistencies that have been highlighted here and elsewhere.
3) B&P’s explanation appears +possible+ but seems evasive and generally unlikely. That said, tourists often plan trips that locals find absurd and the business about Russians not being put off by snow is just silly – no one in trainers wants to walk in slush Russian, Eskimo or British.
4) If B&P are lying, this does not necessarily mean they poisoned anyone – or know who did.
5) Presumably Salisbury Cathedral has CCTV. Has anyone looked at it?
6) Did B&P take photos during their visit to Salisbury? Were their phones switched on all the time, if so what about GPS?
7) Why would they have needed a “recce”? More chance of being spotted and we have been told that Skripal had been in touch with embassy, so wouldn’t they have known address etc? If needed, why not get someone else to do it?
8) I have read most of Viktor Suvorov’s books about the GRU; he is hardly pro-Russian, but he says that they are outstanding officers even before their very comprehensive GRU training. Do B&P look like elite officers? Or has the GRU deteriorated?
9) Does the Skripal house have CCTV and if so what does it show?
10) Did any neighbours see B&P walk up the road to the house?
11) Legacy media v quick to challenge B&P story; in no hurry to question Britgov story.
That’s a good point about the Skirpals house having CCTV ?
James
Just a couple of points in response to your questions:
“CCTV at Salisbury Cathedral” – in their interview, B&P commented that there would have been/were CCTVs there and they were there for a while and would have been filmed. They themselves suggested investigators look at the footage to verify they were there.
“CCTV at Skripal house” – I have seen reports that there was indeed CCTV at Skripal’s house (wouldn’t be a surprise, in fact would be more surprising if there wasn’t) and also reports that a neighbour opposite had CCTV as well (not unusual these days).
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, what what?
A tad prolix perhap, but you’re not wrong. In fact, if this were Just A Minute, I think my namesake would have been just getting into full swing when the whistle blew, and without repetition or deviation. Compliments on those thoughts.
With my tongue now in my cheek, I expect the Mods will now expunge this comment for commiting the cardinal sin of “sock puppetry”. Or is it ad homimem or just off-topic?
I meant “reverse sock puppetry” obviously. Such a daft expression.
If I were Boshirov and Petrov I would not come to Britain voluntarily. Remember Lockerbie and Abdelbaset al-Megrahi.
Reporter Lindsey Hilsum reported on Channel 4 news that one of the two’s passport had a ‘top secret’ marking on it? Did anyone catch that ? Lindsey is one of the most trustworthy journalists on UK TV imho. She extensively queried the Iraq dossier back in the day during the lead up to the Iraq war, by visiting the sites listed and debunking the dossier’s ‘evidence’.
Does that mean “I am a spy and you should let me in without even opening my top secret passport?”
I didn’t catch the full report, I think she may have been referring to associated travel documents someone has got hold of in Russia?
That’s why I asked whether anyone saw the news item?
Goose
Just a thought. If there were photocopies of their documents it’s quite possible someone has recently stamped the copies as “Top Secret” to prevent them getting into the wrong hands since the accusations were levelled.
Further to my post at 23.18, I recall from my UK civil service days that there were various classification markings for files and documents. Top Secret was certainly up towards the highest security category and may have been top. Such papers HAD to be kept under lock and key and be signed out if they were to change hands etc. Presumably similar arrangements apply worldwide.
See my post below. Looks like Bellingcat could well be the source of her information.
Thanks
That is pretty damning, if true, looking at this objectively.
the woman totally debunks bellingcat, who as usual, starts with what he wants to prove and works backwards.
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7
What about the other?
Lemme take a wild guess. Marked ‘GRU’ ?
Traveling openly under their own names? Hiding in plain sight as it were. Diabolically clever. Do I have to spell it out for you? It can be none other than Gee Are You.
Because who else but Russians are such great students of Sherlock Holmes and Edgar Allan Poe mysteries? The idea for no cover for agents comes straight off ‘A Case of Identity’ and ‘The Purloined Letter’.
“Remember Lockerbie….”
Indeed.
I listened to an interview last night on BBC Radio 5 Live. It was with a very posh chap professor type from Oxford University. He claimed that of course the two suspects were Russian Intelligence people. It was just that the UK government can’t show us the evidence to prove it as it’s probably with our own Intelligence people!
And with that he rested his case.
Frightening really.
Just like Saddam had WMDs…
Yup. My thoughts exactly.
That is what the decline looks like.
There is digging going on in Moscow particularly around Petrov’s passport. I hate to link to this lot but what they are claiming does raise questions if true. Looks like money talks in getting access to the Russian internal passport database (like most places). These are the first couple of paragraphs.
“An ongoing Bellingcat investigation conducted jointly with The Insider Russia has confirmed through uncovered passport data that the two Russian nationals identified by UK authorities as prime suspects in the Novichok poisonings on British soil are linked to Russian security services. This finding directly contradicts claims by the Russian president on 12 September 2018, and by the two men in an interview broadcast on RT one day later, that they are civilians who traveled to Salisbury for a tourist getaway.
Original Russian documents reviewed by Bellingcat and The Insider confirm definitively that the two men were registered in the central Russian resident database under the names Alexander Yevgenievich Petrov and Ruslan Timurovich Boshirov, respectively, and were issued internal passports under these names in 2009. However, no records exist for these two personas prior to 2009. This suggests the two names were likely cover identities for operatives of one of the Russian security services. Crucially, at least one man’s passport files contain various “top-secret” markings, which, according to at least two sources consulted by Bellingcat, are typically reserved for members of secret services or top state operatives.”
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1040640433175621632
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/14/skripal-poisoning-suspects-passport-data-shows-link-security-services/
Even the RT Editor-in-Chief Simonyan, who interviewed them , refused to say whether she believed them .
No she did not, she said quite the contrary in on 1TV’s evening news on the day. Where’s your evidence to support what you say?
In the UK Newsnight interview she did, she refused to say whether she believed them, she did however say she didn’t trust UK intelligence agencies.
Given that the UK media has edited her interview with the “suspects” do you honestly think they aired a true and unedited version of the interview with her???
Given that the UK media has edited her interview with the “suspects” do you honestly think they aired a true and unedited version of the interview with her???
Er yes, in this case, because she(simonyan) hasn’t complained and there were no pauses in what she said so no edits. The interview ended abruptly, as if Simonyan was annoyed with Wark’s line of questioning.
She said on the BBC and on RT that as an objective journalist it wasn’t her job to believe or disbelieve people but to report to viewers on the facts as presented so they could make up their own minds (clearly having a dig at the UK MSM). She explicitly said that she had no reason to believe them OR disbelieve them. I’m not foolish enough to think she doesn’t have an opinion but she certainly didn’t imply or suggest that she disbelieved them as some seem to be inferring from her comments.
Really, bellingcat? Wasn’t he living in “mum’s basement”???
You comment is why I was reluctant to link to them.
You could well be correct as to where he started from but they exploited MH17 to the full and clearly pleased someone with cash and is now successfully mining that source with more stories.
The dude didn’t learn his lesson from being discredited by the inventor of the technique “Bellingcat” misused: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/expert-criticizes-allegations-of-russian-mh17-manipulation-a-1037125.html
and went on to peddle more BS:
http://theduran.com/15-minutes-of-fame-over-elliot-higgins-aka-bellingcat-is-being-debunked-all-over-internet-by-real-experts-and-scientists/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02/20/there-goes-the-guardian-lying-about-ukraineagain/
You only lose credibility once.
The Duran’s verdict: “Any media who further quote “analysis” by the “experts” Higgins and Bellingcat should be regarded as propaganda outlet and not as a serious source of news.”
@ John in MK
The Bellingcat article has been undermined in the comments section:
1) Bellingcat has mistakenly claimed the Russian guys only booked their flights the night before they travelled. However, from the flight manifest the Russian guys checked-in online the night before they travelled. ‘Booking’ is a separate function ‘Checking-In’. Bellingcat seem to have jumped to a conclusion which suits their argument.
2) Bellingcat want you believe that you can look-up someone on the Central Russian Passport Registration database and if they’ve got SS on their record (they guess that it’s Russian for top secret) it would mean that person is linked to the security services. This is laughable.
If they are undercover GRU men, they are not very impressive ones, quite wet and timid. And putting themselves about in such an obvious way in Salisbury, hardly looked like a secret mission. I am still inclined to think they are lowly foot soldiers with a cover story to travel and deliver and fetch stuff. They must be brilliant actors if they are really cool headed ruthless killers? If this is the cream of the GRU bunch. well they can’t be a very impressive bunch.
Read this woman’s comments on bellingcat’s ‘findings’
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7
I find her logic far more compelling that Atlantic council shill Higgins.
kudos to you craig murray! a man after my own heart and persuasion.. thank you.
Regarding what the pair said about the weather in Salisbury, I was wondering if there would be a certain level of humidity which would make jeans feel wet. From a transcript of the interview:
PETROV: No, we arrived in Salisbury on March 3. We wanted to walk around the city but since the whole city was covered with snow, we spent only 30 minutes there. We were all wet.
BOSHIROV: There are no pictures. The media, television – nobody talks about the fact that the transport system was paralyzed that day. It was impossible to get anywhere because of the snow. We were drenched up to our knees
https://www.rt.com/news/438356-rt-petrov-boshirov-full-interview/
Using a site which records past weather, the levels of humidity on 3 & 4 March were high about the time that the pair were in Salisbury – about 79% average and 84% respectively. And in the hours preceding their visit on the 3 March there were 3 hours of ice fog and, then, 6 hours of fog from 01:50 to 09:50 that morning. On the 4 March there were 12 hours of fog from 19.50 on 3 March until 08:50 on 4 March, interspersed with a couple hours of rain, be-fore their visit. And every hour of fog, except two, the humidity level was 100%
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/uk/salisbury/historic?month=3&year=2018