The time that “Boshirov and Petrov” were allegedly in Salisbury carrying out the attack is all entirely within the period the Skripals were universally reported to have left their home with their mobile phones switched off.
A key hole in the British government’s account of the Salisbury poisonings has been plugged – the lack of any actual suspects. And it has been plugged in a way that appears broadly convincing – these two men do appear to have traveled to Salisbury at the right time to have been involved.
But what has not been established is the men’s identity and that they are agents of the Russian state, or just what they did in Salisbury. If they are Russian agents, they are remarkably amateur assassins. Meanwhile the new evidence throws the previously reported timelines into confusion – and demolishes the theories put out by “experts” as to why the Novichok dose was not fatal.
This BBC report gives a very useful timeline summary of events.
At 09.15 on Sunday 4 March the Skripals’ car was seen on CCTV driving through three different locations in Salisbury. Both Skripals had switched off their mobile phones and they remained off for over four hours, which has baffled geo-location.
There is no CCTV footage that indicates the Skripals returning to their home. It has therefore always been assumed that they last touched the door handle around 9am.
But the Metropolitan Police state that Boshirov and Petrov did not arrive in Salisbury until 11.48 on the day of the poisoning. That means that they could not have applied a nerve agent to the Skripals’ doorknob before noon at the earliest. But there has never been any indication that the Skripals returned to their home after noon on Sunday 4 March. If they did so, they and/or their car somehow avoided all CCTV cameras. Remember they were caught by three CCTV cameras on leaving, and Borishov and Petrov were caught frequently on CCTV on arriving.
The Skripals were next seen on CCTV at 13.30, driving down Devizes road. After that their movements were clearly witnessed or recorded until their admission to hospital.
So even if the Skripals made an “invisible” trip home before being seen on Devizes Road, that means the very latest they could have touched the doorknob is 13.15. The longest possible gap between the novichok being placed on the doorknob and the Skripals touching it would have been one hour and 15 minutes. Do you recall all those “experts” leaping in to tell us that the “ten times deadlier than VX” nerve agent was not fatal because it had degraded overnight on the doorknob? Well that cannot be true. The time between application and contact was between a minute and (at most) just over an hour on this new timeline.
In general it is worth observing that the Skripals, and poor Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley, all managed to achieve almost complete CCTV invisibility in their widespread movements around Salisbury at the key times, while in contrast “Petrov and Boshirov” managed to be frequently caught in high quality all the time during their brief visit.
This is especially remarkable in the case of the Skripals’ location around noon on 4 March. The government can only maintain that they returned home at this time, as they insist they got the nerve agent from the doorknob. But why was their car so frequently caught on CCTV leaving, but not at all returning? It appears very much more probable that they came into contact with the nerve agent somewhere else, while they were out.
“Boshirov and Petrov” plainly are of interest in this case. But only Theresa May stated they were Russian agents: the police did not, and stated that they expected those were not their real identities. We do not know who Boshirov and Petrov were. It appears very likely their appearance was to do with the Skripals on that day. But they may have been meeting them, outside the home. The evidence points to that, rather than doorknobs. Such a meeting might explain why the Skripals had turned off their mobile phones to attempt to avoid surveillance.
It is also telling the police have pressed no charges against them in the case of Dawn Sturgess, which would be manslaughter at least if the government version is true.
If “Boshirov and Petrov” are secret agents, their incompetence is astounding. They used public transport rather than a vehicle and left the clearest possible CCTV footprint. They failed in their assassination attempt. They left traces of novichok everywhere and could well have poisoned themselves, and left the “murder weapon” lying around to be found. Their timings in Salisbury were extremely tight – and British Sunday rail service dependent.
There are other possibilities of who “Boshirov and Petrov” really are, of which Ukrainian is the obvious one. One thing I discovered when British Ambassador to Uzbekistan was that there had been a large Ukrainian ethnic group of scientists working at the Soviet chemical weapon testing facility there at Nukus. There are many other possibilities.
Yesterday’s revelations certainly add to the amount we know about the Skripal event. But they raise as many new questions as they give answers.
In five-to-ten years time a document akin to this one would surface: https://www.scribd.com/document/375924658/Polonium-210-that-killed-Litvinenko-was-in-UK-before-arrival-of-Russians-translation (original p1: https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/66z34f8h4w6cg3jt/images/1-4cccb3a1c6.jpg p2: https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/66z34f8h4w6cg3jt/images/2-4d52d1b44a.jpg )
Yes isn’t it funny how we have Litvinenko as former FSB (Police) tipping off Berezhovsky about a hit and becoming his man whilst also investigating Chechens who were providing Berezhovsky’s “roof”.
That Christopher Steele was Litvinenko’s point-man in London and that Litvinenko was funded by Berezhovsky and was his bag man. The activities of Berezhovsky were never other than criminal.
“The activities of Berezhovsky were never other than criminal.”
Too right. An out and out ‘psycho’.
Did you know Berezovsky was pals with the royal family? This was stated in one article, in the Torygraph I think it was, and I reckon somebody noticed, pointed, and said “uh-uh”. Shades of the royals at the Colony Club in the 1960s between the two Gaming Acts. Those types know what they like.
Abramovich and Lebedev are equally criminal.
Who do you reckon whacked Berezovsky? He couldn’t give evidence to the Litvinenko inquest once he was dead. He muttered about Brits and Russians cooperating.
Nikolai Glushkov was BB’s pal. He surely connects with Salisbury – he got whacked on 12 March 2018 – but how? I have a hunch there’s a Korean connection.
With regards your references to CCTV coverage, you imply that absence of CCTV footage being put into the public domain means it does not exist.
It’s amusing, isn’t it, how a completely mundane and ordinary fact can turn into something “especially remarkable” when penned by Mr Murray as he desperately seeks a lifeline for his discredited “alternative” theories.
“mundane” and “ordinary” facts are what get innocent men out of jail in The Appeal Court
Afghanistan? Iraq? Libya? Syria? How many lies do you need? How many more more deaths from future wars before something sours your amusement?
Richard why dont you rell us all what you think happened and why And please dont include the keystone cops or harold lloyd in your theories Take the stage up until now there have been reasonable assuptions
well yeah, if they had evidence they should bring it out. but they don’t do that, and given the track record of dishonesty in both the british and american intelligence communities, skepticism is warranted.
And the reason for not putting that ccd footage into the public domain is….. what, exactly?
Prove their claims for the next war were based on something other than complete bullshit.
It implies CCTV footage of the “assassins” is put out into the public domain but the CCTV footage of the Scripals, Charlie and Dawn and, what the heck, government “intelligence” operatives and assorted other individuals not as yet known to wider public but likely involved is being purposely suppressed if it hasn’t been destroyed already.
Remember in 2005 the CCTV tapes of the brazilian guy de menzies who was shot dead on london tube platform by police… the cctv tapes were handled over to the cops…they were destroyed…sorry “lost”.
How about the possibility the Skripals were poisoned elsewnere first and then it was they who spread the poison on their door handle?
You mean these two guys were sent over from Russia to act as Red Herrings?
I suppose it’s possible. But then again, why can’t they be merely two Russians who were innocently visiting in Salisbury that day (which may be – statistically-speaking – not such an outrageous proposition) so the Brits decided not to pass up the opportunity to Stitch Them Up for something they have no involement with.
Or then again, they could be Russian mafioso who flew over to confer with Skripal on something that is to their mutual benefit, they sealed a deal to everyone’s satisfaction, and then Some Other Rival tried to take out Skripal in order to put the kybosh on the deal.
Heck, I could do this all day, and none of the possibilities need involve Vladamir Putin one little bit.
It appears there are ways for Russian passport holders to enter Uk without a Visa: more likely with proper operatives
“24-hours visa-free visit: 1) when in transit to/from Australia, Canada, New Zealand or USA, or 2) if holder of residence permit issued by Australia, Canada, New Zealand or USA, or 3) if holder of certain EEA or Switzerland visas, or 4) if holder of certain Irish visas[271][272]”
Wikipedia
Both Russians were in the UK for longer than 24 hours.
They arrived at Gatwick on the 2nd March, and then visited Salisbury on both the 3rd March and the 4th March before flying back to Moscow on the night of the 4th.
That has to exceed the 24 hour visa-free time that is allowed.
If you were professional you could use this approach instead of wearing a hi-viz jacket saying “Russians Off to Salisbury”
If they were professional then the nerve-agent would have been delivered via diplomatic pouch to the Russian embassy.
The assassin would have been placed in some quiet backwater area of Britain as far from Salisbury as you can get, and told to lay low for weeks.
The assassin would then link up with a courier bringing the Novichok to him as they crossed paths “fortuitously” somewhere between Backwater and Salisbury, and when he got to Salisbury he would have met with the in-place recon team who had been keeping an eye on Skripal.
At that point the recon team – if they were professional which, apparently, we are supposed to believe – would have told the assassin to cool his heels because – damn it! – Lonely Old Man Skripal has his daughter staying with him.
Assassin: When is she leaving?
Recon: A couple of days, no more.
Assassin: OK, I’ll wait until she leaves.
I mean, honestly, if you have the resources of a STATE backing you wouldn’t you play it out that way?
Yeah Right Your trying really hard Its painfully obvious And thats the difference Great well thought out name though Every Dog has its day thats the natural evolution
Why would Putin want Skripal whacked? You clearly think those who discuss other possibilities have some kind of pathological need to get away from the Great Truth you worship that is being promulgated from the rooftops by the British government and media, but do you consider it so ineffable that it doesn’t need any support?
That is possible, I don’t think the police have said explicitly why they think the door knob was the original source. The implication is that it must have been much more contaminated then elsewhere. However early times makes it hard to explain the Skripals being in rude health during their down town visit and both succumbing together many hours later.
A poisoning somewhere in town makes much more sense, either the pub, or whatever they did between the pub and the bench.Zizzis was most likely before that.
They’re like five-year-olds on LSD…
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/06/russia-faces-barrage-of-criticism-at-un-over-novichok-attack
… who are putting all our lives in grave danger; yet people still vote for these rectums. Absolutely baffling.
(apologies for not responding to replies in this and the previous thread, which have been very fast moving and for me hard to keep up with. As well as being pushed for time at the moment I’m also suffering from bad health. Ain’t life a bitch…)
So one of your theories is Ukrainians travelled to Moscow, obtained fake Russian Passports, applied for visas to enter the UK having obtain Novichok and then travelled back to Moscow all to discredit Russia? Not to mention that the Russians will have access to the Aeroflot records to identify this pair. Wouldn’t the Russians be shouting this from the rooftops? Don’t you think they’d be trawling all through their own CCTV records and the photos they’d have of Ukrainian nationals who worked at that chemical plant? A bit far-fetched isn’t it?
I think he was trying to say the ukranians might be involved but they would be intelligence officers or such with many resources and contacts to obtain said passports etc and would be experts at discrediting or laying the blame else where Lets try to keep this at a good level
How can we keep this at a good level? Mr Murray’s theories are preposterous and don’t stand up to a moment’s reflection.
no they aren’t. point out the flaws. what’s preposterous is this push to heighten tensions with russia based on no solid evidence.
No more preposterous than to assume that the GRU are such amateurs that when they plan a “hit” they send the hit-team over on the same plane (!!) and get them to walk side-by-side through Gatwick’s security system (!!!) before showing their Russian passports (!!!!!) to immigration.
Then having made it through Gatwick those trained-assassins make a bee-line to the soon-to-be crime scene in a manner that practically screams LOOK AT US LOOK AT US LOOK AT US.
Then having committed that foul deed these GRU assassins (highly trained by the state, remember) bumble their way onto a flight that leads them straight back to Putin’s corner office in the Kremlin.
All of it reeks of amateurism and sloppiness, but at the same time we are expected to believe that the leadership of the Russian Federation had sanctioned this act and were bending the entire resources of the GRU to carry it out.
Hellooooooo.
The GRU would send a hit-squad to Britain on different dates and via different means. Those team members would then lie low for weeks, and not meet until they got to Salisbury. And then having carried out that hit they’d all scatter and leave Britain by a different means than their arrival. And very, very definitely not on a return flight to Moscow.
Unless, of course, Teresa May says-so.
In that case it must be true.
Yeah right, yeah right. Absolutely.
Pointing out unlikely aspects of official story. Not presenting other theories as full solutions, how could he without access to evidence. Just possibilities as reasonable as official one. Questioning the likeliness of what we are told is sensible after plenty of official lies over the past years.
You can buy passports and Lithuanians are the counterfeiters of choice.
Do you think fake passports are only available in country of issue ? How many fake Irish passports are floating around. Belgian blanks were being sold to organised crime.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/dark-web-vendors-sell-blank-british-passports-entry-passport-database-just-2000-1509564
http://www.buydocumentsonline.net/product/buy-russia-passport-russia-passport-sale-russian-passport/
http://www.buydocumentsonline.net/product-tag/russian-passport/
Not really Steve, why would the Russian help out in any way, when the sanctions are all in place against them and the worlds media is against them. Even if the Russians did all that, people still wouldn’t believe them, its an agenda to blacken Russia as much as possible. As far as getting false passports and going through their CCTV, remember when Israel used false forged British, Irish, German and French passports to travel to Dubai when they carried out a hit on Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh in his Dubai hotel room?
Israel never offered to help in any way shape or form and funny enough Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh was assassinated by an injection of a CHEMICAL agent into his neck, we didn’t have this much news media attention regarding Israel and Israel never had sanctions put on them, did they? So why has Russia, as at present there is no evidence to support it was the Russian Government behind this attempt, it just fits into the agenda of Anti-Russia, due to Putin not bowing to Western Governments and his support of Assad in Syria.
THOSE SKRIPAL “SPIES” – A COMBINATION OF MALEVOLENCE AND IGNORANCE
Those who are gullible enough to believe the British authorities’ “sensational” identification of the “spies” believed to have administered the Novichok agent to the Skripals display a remarkable ignorance of the manner in which Russian spies and other foreign agents are trained and operate.
For several decades now, the preferred method used by GRU (and other Russian intelligence agencies) in order to enable their agents to operate in the various countries in which they have an interest is the creation and training of the “illegals” (or “sleeper” agents) – operatives especially trained to merge perfectly among the local population and thus achieve the maximum degree of anonymity. This consists first of all in intensive language training to the point where their speech is indistinguishable from that of the native population, to the extent of a perfect mastery of regional accent and even in some cases (in relation to Britain) the minority Gaelic/Celtic languages. The second part of this method consists in creating a perfect “legend”, i.e. backstory, for the agent concerned. The agent is given a (British) identity and name, a school he/she attended, obtains various qualifications, goes to University and/or college (or goes straight into employment), gets promotion, changes jobs, opens bank accounts, contributes to pension funds, life insurance, etc, even manages to get driving licences and other attributes the “normal” citizen would expect to have. The Kremlin has always devoted huge resources to this method, which is virtually impossible to decode or uncover – and if it is, it is usually far too late as the agent will have returned safely to base once the object of the mission has been achieved. It is unthinkable that for a high-profile and perilous assignment such as the poisoning of Russian dissidents abroad, the Kremlin would not have used this method. There was simply too much at stake.
The Prime Minister’s dramatic statement in the House of Commons therefore appears to be, as is the case for so much else of her narrative, a piece of wilful and malevolent deception.
From 1956 to 1965 the head of MI5 was a GRU agent. This is the level at which the GRU are operationally capable, not the ridiculous bumbling amateur ‘assassins’ portrayed by the corporate politician and their side-kicks in the corporate media.
So those quality GRU trade-crafts implanted in MI5 then have evaporated now? Time for more infusions from Moscow, as the above drama is of very low quality and consistency.
That or was the Skripal-vanish project outsourced to the private sector?
You claim Hollis worked for GRU ? Even Peter Wright only accused him of working for KGB. Christopher Andrew debunked this obsessive neurosis of Peter Wright
There have been a number of hints to this being the case in Salisbury by “experts” who seem reasonably credible, over the last few days.
To what being the case exactly?
Much as I love a good conspiracy theory I really don’t think Russia would waste so much time and effort on a tin pot state such as the UK, in and out on Aeroflot before Plod has finished his tea.
A bet Boris gets a woody just hearing the words cobra meeting.
The entire story is a fiction; it never happened. None of the events can be either confirmed or denied by a truly independant body. All all ‘information’ exuding from PTB sources is styed ‘take it as read it’s is true’ mode. The entire fiction is {literally} screened of from public scrutiny; if it were real and it was the Russkies pulling the stunt, we would have been shown the gore. What we got? Zilch, nada, bugger all. And while we all speculate on a rehash of the ‘Gas attack’ film, The AZ cabal, mafia, call them what you will, are forawarding their plot to bash Russia,{and anyone else who gets in their way}, and if sucessful, enjoy another century of plundered wealth at the expence of the population globally. The increasing use of ‘statute by decree’ {ex: fracking}, the frantic scramble for markets world-wide, clearly indicate, { IMO }, a system in lack of a fix for its woes and on its last chance or bust. ‘They will go for war, that’s all they know how to do.
It is looking like the daughter was targeted not father, the former Russian spy.
The suspects in the poisoning arrived in London on March 3, 2018, just hours before the daughter arrived to England from Moscow on March 4. Her husband (or boyfriend), or someone very close to her, may have something to do with that, because only those people sure knew on what day, what flight and at what hours she will arrive to England.
Her sister too has the same feeling, that target was her sister due to some family issue, not father.
Just a family drama a la Russe?
(Quel bruit pour une omelette..)
http://www.famechain.com/family-tree/39599/sergei-skripal/liudmila-skripal
Yulia Skripal does not have a sister
The word cousin in Russia is closer to sister or brother
strange that, the media reported that her “sister” was refused a visa to enter the UK when the skripals were hospitalised it was in the press and on TV& radio????
Here’s a suggestion: Yulia was carrying a message for her father. Something important. Something ground-shaking.
No idea what.
Maybe an offer, or an inducement. Possibly just a request for information that only ol’ Sergei possessed.
But whatever that message was, it may have been so inflammatory that some other group/faction/individual was determined to put a stop to that nonsense, and to do with With Extreme Prejudice.
That doesn’t require anybody to have any animosity towards Yulia herself. All it requires is that she landed at Heathrow Airport with a McGuffin in her suitcase.
So the anti West element here seems to be pushing one of three scenarios:
1 .It is all a made-up scenario, staged by the UK/US security services, to justify further bombing of Syria and accusations of the use of poison gas by the benevolent dictator Assad or alternatively to divert attention from the Steele dossier which Sergei Skripal was involved in creating
2. It is all a made-up scenario by the UK Security services, to discredit Russia and its benevolent President Putin and whip up anti Russian feeling, for reasons I cannot quite make out but basically just because they hate Russia so much, and to achieve this they used Nerve gas created in Porton Down to poison the Skripals/fake poison the Skripals (and secretly kidnap them) and pollute Salisbury – Oh and because it has gone a bit quiet lately they dumped some more nerve agent in a charity bin in Salisbury Town centre to target a local druggie or skip rat (who would find it and be poisoned as a result ) – and use the resulting public outrage to whip up some more anti Russian feeling (now go to continue at point 1)
3. There was a real incident of some sort involving the Skripals (with Sergei possibly a drug dealer/or some scenario involving Yulia’s Russian fiance/or an incident staged by the Ukrainian mafia/secret services/or Russian mafia (delete as preferred) to discredit Russia and the benevolent President Putin but as it had gone a bit quiet, the UK secret services have assembled a fake case to accuse two harmless Russian tourists who decided to visit Salisbury for a quiet winter break on the weekend when the Skripals were poisoned/kidnapped (delete as appropriate)
There are of course various permutations but these seem to be the main ones.
Some aim to make a huge amount of money out of WW3. The rulers’ use of the irrational is rational in an important sense. Russophobia is not an underlying motivation.
To summarise views that you disagree with you need to be well on top of them if you’re going to bring in some lampooning when you’re doing it; otherwise it’s easy to get sidetracked.
The psychological warfare for WW3 has already started. It’s normal for it to start before physical confrontation. Unfortunately in this epoch of mass publishing a lot of people think they know about psychological warfare and use terms such as “meme” and “alt-right” and “hybrid war” without really understanding it much. Similarly there is a lot of ignorance about the inevitability of an economic crash and also about strategic great power history, such that e.g. the term “cold war” is used to denote the period going up to 1991 which is just totally ridiculous.
N_:
I love your Avatar.
Shows to the world anon1 is totally bankrupt of any reasoning faculty, and resorting to the old ad-hominem attacks – attacking the attorney rather than the defendant.
Thanks @Joe 🙂 I had fun making it.
“the anti West element”
I just love it, as they march all you cretins off to die in World War Three.
You need to have at least three thousand brain cells missing in order to believe all this Novichok nonsense.
The only good thing about it is that it’s the final nail in the coffin of criminal psychopaths like Theresa May & Co.
You can add another reason …. to shut down RT news broadcasts and to suck up to american foreign policy
@ Mary Paul September 7, 2018 at 00:53
I’ll just ask you two things: if you are not already fully aware of Rolan Dumas’ testimony (RD is a former French Foreign Minister) , please check these two links out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWKA2ffECUg
and: ‘Former French Foreign Minister Roland Dumas: West was preparing attack on Syria before crisis started’.
They may help you understand why some of us appear ‘anti-Western’.
All of this bloodshed, destruction and refugee crisis has been deliberately instigated by the West in order to change the government of Syria.
For good measure, check this very short video our as well, which shows the plan was in place at least as early as 2001:
‘The Plan — according to U.S. General Wesley Clark (Ret.)’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE
Clark used to be the Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, so he’s not small beer.
Do you believe the West has the right to overthrow any governments it chooses, under any pretext it conjures up?
You forgot the most plausible: Skripal was connected to the Trump dossier constructed by (ex MI6) Christopher Steele. That is the only dynamite big enough to “justify” such a long effort to mislead the British public.
I included that under point 1. 😉
It doesn’t have to be the Steele Dossier itself, necessarily.
All you have to do is consider the notion that Sergei Skripal’s association with Pablo Miller means that he has been in frequent communication with a direct employee of Orbis Business Intelligence.
That may mean nothing more than nostalgia on the part of Skripal (and, honestly, who wouldn’t enjoy laughs and a few pints with the very man whose enticements resulted in you being slapped into prison?)
Maybe.
But an alternative view is that this suggests that Skripal was still playing the game, and if that’s true (and to me that’s more plausible than reminiscing about The Good Old Days Of Dank Prison Cells) then Skripal is going to have made enemies.
Maybe it was the Steele Dossier.
Maybe.
Or maybe it’s just that Skripal was still neck-deep in a dirty game with some very dodgy characters, and somehow, some way, and at one time, that association came back to bite him.
That sounds way more plausible than the government narrative, which appears to be that Vlad Putin flew into such a rage every time he thought about Sergei Skripal (why?) that he finally (when?) decided that enough was enough and That Now Harmless Old Man Must Die A Horrible Death So I Can Sleep At Night.
Your highly normative posting admits no alternate view as valid. Evidence-based assessments should be challenged so as to avoid disasters like Iraq or Gallipoli.
there is a major British-play in preventing Franco-German rapprochement with Russia which would isolate the UK in a way not seen since 1890s. It is Mackinder v Mahan
Mary, I can make it a lot less complicated for you: all that is needed is to entertain the possibility that Sergei wasn’t a doddery ol’ pensioner but was, instead, still up to his armpits in all that spooky Cloak and Dagger stuff.
Because I agree with the idea that
a) IF Sergei Skripal was just some old, fat codger living his declining years in happy retirement
b) THEN it’s hard to see anyone other than A Stark-Raving Mad Vladimir Putin wanting to harm him..
But consider this:
a) IF Sergei Skripal is a “retired spy” in the same way that Christopher Steele is a “retired spy”
b) THEN the list of likely suspects skyrockets, as it has for hapless ol’ Christopher.
If that’s the case then you’d have to compile a list of anyone Skripal might conceivably have Cloaked or Daggered in the last eight years of Still Being In The Game.
Because here’s the thing: you got Ol’ Sergei living in Salisbury these past eight years, and during that time his frequent dining companion was Pablo Miller (“ex” MI6) who just so happens to work for – Gosh! Who’d have thunk it? – our friend Christopher Steele (also “ex” MI6).
Maybe Sergei Skripal was a mind-my-own-business pensioner.
Maybe Pablo Miller is as well (err, no, probably not)
Maybe Christopher Steele is too (hmm, no, very definitely not).
But if that’s the company he was keeping then, honestly, he’s likely to have some enemies.
And if he was working for those people then, yeah, definitely, he’s going to have some enemies.
There is nothing wrong with criticising the west when you think western elites always were a criminal enterprise and is now just a gangster outfit. Their bootleg liquor is oil, the boys they send round are armies and their drive-by shootings Warthog DU strafings. Their most profitable caper is printing money which they launder through tax havens but they like to put into payday loan-sharking, and gambling which they prefer to advertise as “Win!”. And like the Mob they take the step of killing opposing leaders which they claim the moral right to do.
“…to divert attention from the Steele dossier which Sergei Skripal was involved in creating”
If by “diverting attention” you mean making absolutely sure that it never comes to light that the UK was involved in creating the dodgy dossier, then I can agree. Because no one can convince me that some higher ups in our secret services and even in the government or even in our state as a whole, (i.e. military), didn’t know, at least after the facts, that Steele and Miller, and probably our bought spy Sergei Skripal, were involved in creating a dossier that would ruin Trump’s chances of being elected, i.e., we would be seen as involved in trying to interfere in the US election exactly what Russia is accused of so not good… nope, not good at all!
It is, of course, pure coincidence that Robert Hannigan was director of GCHQ before and during thePresidential election, and then he suddenly resigned three days after Trump’s inauguration.
He resigned “for personal reasons”, which both says it all as it explains nothing.
Surely nothing to do with Steele, or dirty dossiers, or Donald Trump.
No, no, no, no. He did it for personal reasons, you understand……
The state seems to be witholding quite a bit of evidence – probably CCTV of the Skripals but definitley the finger prints of the two suspects – any Russian applying for a visa to the UK has to submit their fingerprints to ther UK govt first ( https://www.rt.com/news/437798-skripal-security-council-meeting/) . The state may be witholding just because that is their natural inclination or it may be to encourage commentators (eg you), media (eg RT) and politicans (eg Jeremy Corbyn) to embarrass themselves. Be careful…
further to my point about finger prints:
“Standard Visitor visa. Apply from outside the UK online
You must apply online. As part of your online application, you need to book an appointment at a visa application centre. You’ll have your fingerprints and photograph (known as ‘biometric information’) taken at your appointment.”
https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/apply
I wonder if that’s where the photos came from.
In that case it should have taken British authorities 60 seconds to find these two, not 6 months…..
http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tuberculosis-test-for-a-uk-visa-clinics-in-the-russian-federation
You might find Russia is not “standard” but special and TB checks are an additional feature. It is pretty obvious these men have been to UK before and could not have travelled at short notice
I think you’re right about the photos coming from the visa application because I read somwhere that if from the passport they would have a seal on them. But then I also thought passport and Visa photos were obliged to be against a white/light background.
Nah, I think it’s pretty obvious that those two photos were taken at their GRU graduation ceremony, and all the Met Police had to do was to scroll through the GRU’s Facebook page annnnnd…. there they are.
I mean, these are Russians we are talking about. Of course they are going to be sloppy with their tradecraft.
@ david September 7, 2018 at 00:56
Our rogue warmongering regime not only withholds evidence, it manufactures it, and scatter-guns allegations left, right and center, with no accountability, thanks to our totally unfit for purpose MSM (aka ‘4th International Estate, Propaganda Brigade’).
So the ’embarrassment’ should be on those who take a blind bit of notice of ‘our’ MSM, and don’t use their loaf and get their info from RT, Press TV, Information Clearing House, Global Research, Voltairenet.org, Craig Murray, UK Column, 21st Century Wire, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Venezuela Analysis, Hands Off Venezuela, Hands Off Syria, etc.
In Soviet Russia, people knew that Pravda and Izvestia were bulls^it propaganda rags, but in the West, most sheeple are so dopey they believe the cr^p our MSM trots out as ‘truth’. They should bare the embarrassment, but worse are their ‘leaders’ who are infiltrated and controlled by our ‘Security Services’, a good (sic) example of which is ‘Stop the War’.
IF they really wanted to stop the war in Syria, they would expose that Britain was instrumental in it’s instigation from two years before the so-called ‘Arab Spring’ (see Roland Dumas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWKA2ffECUg and ‘UK Government Prepared War in Syria Two Years Before 2011 Protests. France’s Former Foreign Minister Roland Dumas’:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/uk-government-prepared-war-in-syria-two-years-before-2011-protests-frances-former-foreign-minister-roland-dumas/5494871
But they don’t, and even anti-war Labour MP’s don’t either .
WHY????
Poisons are dose-related. It may be the operatives deliberately used a marginally-lethal dose in order to either kill or mess up Skripal and his daughter – they don’t care since either way the message is sent that Putin can reach you anywhere. Or it may be that Sergei Skripal was wearing gloves. Or maybe the Skripals were carrying something at the time and one of them used their elbow to push the door handle down – I often do that if I’m carrying something. Note that it’s a lever door handle, not a doorknob as stated by Mr Murray. Really, it’s a bit far-fetched to hang your entire “alternative” theory on the dose not being lethal. We know anyway there was a lethal amount of Novichok brought to Salisbury, because Dawn Sturgess died from it, as confirmed by the OPCW.
“the message is sent that Putin can reach you anywhere”
Who do you think that message was sent to? Russians all know it already.
killed one out of four not a good advert for the allegedly most dangerous poison in the world
treated by a bog-standard NHS hospital-successfully
May wouldn’t give the russians a sample to test- would that have proved it wasn’t sourced in russia?
would real spies wander around together?
it all beggers belief!!
One out of five… a worse odds even.
@ Richard D September 7, 2018 at 01:21
By golly, you have solved it in one! Never mind that HMG were swearing on stacks of bibles that it was a doorknob, and the MSM dutifully broadcast the fact, in fact, as you so perspicaciously acknowledge, it was a lever.
But the FSB had only been trained to smear Novichocks on doorknobs, and no matter how many times they reread the Highly Secret Special Instructions, they could not find any mention of how to deal with door levers.
So they weren’t, in fact, blundering idiots; the fault lay with the originator of the ‘Highly Secret Special Instructions’ (who a little bird informed me, has been ‘dealt with’).
‘..We know anyway there was a lethal amount of Novichok brought to Salisbury, because Dawn Sturgess died from it, as confirmed by the OPCW.’
Err, so we have been told…
GRU not FSB. Do keep up.
@ Richard D September 7, 2018 at 01:49
Required tradecraft to make little ‘slips’, on occasion – helps to allay suspicions I might be a Russki bot.
it is actually GU, not GRU… talk about keeping up, lol..
The Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (Russian: Гла́вное управле́ние Генера́льного шта́ба Вооружённых Сил Росси́йской Федера́ции), abbreviated G.U.[1], formerly the Main Intelligence Directorate (Russian: Гла́вное разве́дывательное управле́ние, tr. Glavnoye razvedyvatel’noye upravleniye, IPA: [ˈɡlavnəjə rɐzˈvʲɛdɨvətʲɪlʲnəjə ʊprɐˈvlʲenʲɪjə]) and still commonly known by its previous abbreviation GRU[1
May be amount was lethal, but executors were so “unprofessional” and “uneducated” on how to handle this awful ”job”.
Those two guys are not professional agents send by any secret intelligent service. Looking like they are contracted criminals.
Yeah, contracted criminals who just got hold of some 98% pure Novichok down the pub. Put it another way: who do you think contracted them? It would have to be a country friendly to Russia. Couldn’t really be Ukraine, Russia’s current enemy, otherwise Russia would be all over them when the passed through Moscow on many occasions and acquired Russian passports.
Samples taken by International Chemical Agency did not confirm, that it was 98% pure Novichok .
I don’t know who the “International Chemical Agency” are, but the OPCW (which has 193 member states, including Russia) has indeed confirmed it is 97-98% pure. See https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1671-2018_e_.pdf
@ Richard D September 7, 2018 at 01:52
You don’t appear to be aware of the concept of ‘False Flag’ ops. I suggest you watch this:
‘Operation Gladio – Full 1992 documentary BBC’: Operation Gladio – Full 1992 documentary BBC
and/or read one of the excellent books on the subject (the best, IMO, is by Paul Williams.
Don’t tell anyone, but I can get you some Red Pills at a discount, WITH green stamps!
I’m fully aware of false flags, but you aren’t obviously aware of false false flags.
now if only they could confirm any connection between whatever happened and the russian government, and lay out the evidence, instead of this wildly varying story. colin powell waved a vial of fake anthrax at the u.n. it did not miraculously transform itself into real anthrax.
or even false false flags!!
@Richard D.
Nothing in your mentioned report indicate that it was “a pure Novichok”. And not 98% pure.
“Due to the unknown storage conditions of the small bottle found in the house of Mr Rowley and the fact that the environmental samples anaysed in relation to the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal and Mr Nicholas Bailey were exposed to the environment and moisture, the impurity profiles of the samples available to the OPCW do not make it possible to draw conclusions as to whether the samples are from the same synthesis batch”
Skripals might be alive – clearly the British Government does not know
“Poisons are dose-related”
No, not “military-grade” nerve-agents. They are intended to be lethal, full stop.
“they don’t care since either way the message is sent that Putin can reach you anywhere.”
If that’s the “message” then he wouldn’t use “marginally-lethal doses”.
That is axiomatic because the “message” that “marginally-lethal doses” sends is this: Putin can get you anywhere at any time only, gosh, truth be told it’s really a bit of a crap-shoot because the methods that we use means you might get lucky, punk.
As Mattis so memorably paraphrased Napoleon: If you are going to take Vienna, take fucking Vienna
As Putin might say: If you are going to poison Skripal, fucking poison Skripal
“Or it may be that Sergei Skripal was wearing gloves.”
Very conceivable. Remind me again why Russian assassins wouldn’t know that people wear gloves?
“Or maybe the Skripals were carrying something at the time and one of them used their elbow to push the door handle down”
Again, very conceivable. But remind me why the Russian assassins wouldn’t think of that?
“Note that it’s a lever door handle, not a doorknob as stated by Mr Murray.”
I’ll take your word for it. Now, remind me why the Russian assassins didn’t notice and say “Oh, shit, it’s a lever handle. This won’t work”
“Really, it’s a bit far-fetched to hang your entire “alternative” theory on the dose not being lethal.”
I’m going to be entirely honest and say I think it’s laughably far-fetched to argue that Putin Wanted To Send A Message That He Can Definitely Kill Anyone Anywhere At Any Time and then choose such a ludicrous method of sending that message.
I mean, how hard is it to dress up as a postie, knock on the door, and then say “Mr Skripal? Mr Sergei Skripal? Package for you, please sign here.” and when the old codger bends forward to sign on the dotted line you pull out a gun and pump him full of bullets.
I mean, look at the guy: he’s not exactly John Wick or Jack Reacher.
And look at the place: it’s not as if Sergei Skripal had bodyguards or guard dogs.
Maybe they were frightened of the Persian Cat?
You think the effect of “military-grade” nerve agents are not dose-related. That says it all. Tell you what, I’ll eat 1 molecule of Novichok and you can down a pint of it. You are reduced to denying basic chemistry.
The rest of your nonsense and hypothesis is just as easily dismissed. You seem to forget Litvinenko and a host of other people that Russia has poisoned or killed in a dramatic fashion. For whatever reason, that’s what Putin does. He could have had his goons shoot the old man, but that would run a much higher risk of the operatives getting caught. Much better from their point of view to have a delayed effect so they are already on a plane back to Moscow when the s**t hits the fan.
“You think the effect of “military-grade” nerve agents are not dose-related.”
I’m going to hazard a guess that when you spray an annoying fly with bug-spray you hold down the nozzle until the poor thing drowns in the stuff. Because, you know, too much is never enough. Correct?
“Tell you what, I’ll eat 1 molecule of Novichok and you can down a pint of it.”
I’m now going to marvel at the concept that Russian assassins can administer nerve-agent using 1-molecule dispensers.
Let me put a more realistic challenge to you: I drink a pint of Novichok as you allow a single droplet to be administered to your tongue, winner take all.
That would be a fair bet, right, Richard, and you’d be mighty confident of living to collect the winnings, correct?
“You seem to forget Litvinenko and a host of other people that Russia has poisoned or killed in a dramatic fashion.”
You seem to forget that Litvinenko died. And he had very serious security including (man, that guy gets around!) one Christopher Steele. So they could get at him, no problems, but woefully failed to take out some fat old dude who’s only protection came from his 33 year old daughter and his beloved Persian Cat.
And that seems like confirmatory evidence to you, does it?
…” and a host of other people”….
That actually brings up an interesting question, and someone in this talkback might know the answer: in all the years that the Russian GRU has been out ‘n’ about assassinating enemies of the Russian state have they EVER launched an assassination attempt that failed to get their man? Or even one that carelessly endangered the general public in the target country?
Anyone?
Trotsky, sure, I know that took two goes before they ice-picked him.
But that wasn’t the GRU and, let’s face it, that’s ancient history.
Anyone else?
“He could have had his goons shoot the old man, but that would run a much higher risk of the operatives getting caught.”
I do not see why. He lived alone. He had no bodyguard. No security of any sort, apparently.
Just wait until he went with Yulia to see her off at Heathrow, break into his house, make yourself comfortable, and when he walks through the front door you put one bullet into him to drop him, then two more for good luck.
Close the door behind you and you’ll be back home in bed before anyone even notices that he hasn’t showed up in the pub, nobody’s seen Ol’ Serge in a while, I hope he’s alright, someone should drop around to see if he’s OK.
“Much better from their point of view to have a delayed effect so they are already on a plane back to Moscow when the s**t hits the fan”
I’m now going to invite you to follow Craig’s very handy link to the BBC’s website.
The Skripal shit hit the Wiltshire Police fan at 4:15pm.
Petrov and Boshirov did not board their flight until “later that same night”.
Which to me rather suggests that the “delayed effect” of “marginally-lethal doses” is not all that it was cracked up to be, at least “from their point of view”. But it does seem sensible to you so… good on you.
The same message could have been achieved by using a skilled agent with a silenced pistol. Knock on the Skripal door (he wasn’t living in secret) and shoot him in the head and then leave.
Very little evidence, no pointless chemicals involved etc. The message is the same.
Yep. I mentioned that above.
You use poison when the target is heavily guarded to the point where you can not just walk up to him and shoot.
Any other time and under any other circumstance its way, way easier to just walk up to him and shoot him.
According to HMG Novichok is 5-8 times as lethal as VX, which has a LD50 of 7 µg/kg so if Yuila was say 60kg then between 0.0000525g and 0.000084g would have a 50/50 chance of killing her, if you want to measure such a dose, assuming the particle size is small enough to get down to those numbers you need a laboratory balance to do so, which is going to be £5k+ and they would have to be trained to measure such small amount out.
“as confirmed by the OPCW.”
I think you’ll find on closer inspection that the OPCW did no such thing. On the contrary, in their latest report they employ every semantic device known to man in order to avoid defining the toxin involved (see yesterday’s comment by ‘user’ here: https://www.theblogmire.com/open-thread-on-the-new-opcw-report-and-any-other-business/).
Thank you for raising these questions.
The BBC has long list all credibility in its reporting & T. May is once again making herself a laughing stock…
@ Valerie O’Neill September 7, 2018 at 01:51
‘…T. May is once again making herself a laughing stock…’
She’s a tyro – once again, the good ole’ US of A leaves us in its wake – no one could beat the Orange Buffoon.
It’s not just the BBC and T.May saying this. Almost all of the world’s media and leaders are saying the same, because it’s extremely obvious by now that this was a Russian operation.
@Richard D – What exactly are you claiming that almost all of the world’s media and leaders are saying? If you’re claiming they’re saying the Russian government did it, that’s not true. Only a very few countries (a minority of NATO members plus a minority of former British colonies) have backed the latest “GRU” line put out by the Royalist British Regime or “UK” as you probably call it.
the world’s media and leaders are accepting TM’S STATEMENTS AS GOSPEL! AS SHE NEVER GAVE ANY POISON TO any other COUNTRY TO TEST!! remember, she declared in the Commons that it was the rukies wot dun it before any poison or poisoners had even been identified. she, as well as most of her party, and some others HATE russians and take every opportunity to blame them for all the world’s troubles as well as some out of this world.
you don’t seem to actually know much about this, with unsupported assertions like you make in this post.
From what evidence? We’ve not seen any actual evidence yet.
And the media you are talking about are mostly in the pocket of Western intelligence.
Boris Johnson’s wife Marina Wheeler has thrown him out. Presumably he won’t force her to sign a non-disclosure agreement as he did Danielle Fleet. She has kicked him out twice before, on both occasions after he’d got another woman pregnant, so I wonder whether the bastard has done it again?
In the past few weeks he’s been blowing PR money (Bannon-linked?) on preparing a leadership campaign that probably won’t even happen, is my take on it. He may well be out of the picture before the Tory party conference.
I’m trying to figure out what this has to do with Novichok.
Abusing Legal process to keep embarrassing information being publically exposed perhaps ?
To think that they are trying to put this odious, nasty, arrogant POS into no. 10 beggars belief. This man should have no place in British public life, he is a beyond repellent. I absolutely detest and loath this creature.
Marina Wheeler is a barrister and was his mistress when he cheated on his first wife. as the late Jimmy Goldsmith stated: when you marry your mistress you create a vacancy
Loving the quote. Oscar Wilde standard wit.
Hitmen using public transport on a sunday mirning in salisbury is most strange sounding.
As you point out they arrived near midday leaving very little time.
If they used taxis there would be a record.
All in all, the logistics are illogical
I think if this was an attempted assassination by the GRU they would have had more than two in the team, taking into account backup including in the event of a possible screwup as well as reconnaissance, execution, and countersurveillance. Seriously, what is the GRU hypothesis here? Did they mess it up or have to abort or what?
(This is leaving aside the question of motive and what the intended outcome might have been, including what they might have wanted to be recorded as the cause of death.)
As I have mentioned in several places here, there have been a number of hints in MSM in the last few days that the two men identified would not have been the only ones and there is likely to have been a sleeper in Salisbury who remained there after the event as a hasty exit would place them under suspicion.This scenario would at least explain someone involved chucking away the perfume bottle months later.
I am interested in when the story first emerged that the Novichok agent was stored in a perfume bottle. Wasn’t it made by a journo? Does anyone remember when and whom it was? Was it made before Dawn S died?
In which case, if the authorities knew about it why wasn’t it found sooner in Charlie’s flat.? The public timeline is that Charlie told them when he regained consciousness. I begin to think it had been found and kept under wraps but the authorities decided too many other people might have heard about via Charlie and mates so had better release the info once Charlie recovered.
Supposing the two suspects were merely GU couriers and passed the Novichok to a local “sleeper” agent to administer ? This opens up more possibilities: the timeline anomalies of Boshirov and Petrov’s movements would not matter if they handed over the agent to someone else and the sleeper stayed living locally afterwards and decided to dump the bottle a few months later .
Meanwhile the UK authorities have tracked down the GU couriers and decided to finger them as responsible. I am guessing the UK security services do not currently know the identity of the local sleeper.
“Supposing the two suspects were merely GU couriers and passed the Novichok to a local “sleeper” agent to administer ?”
Well, if this was indeed a state-sponsored assassination attempt then those two “couriers” would not have brought the Novichok with them when they entered via Gatwick, precisely because there is way too much risk of them being searched.
The Novichok would have come into the country via diplomatic baggage, because that way the baggage is guaranteed not to be searched.
So you’ve got to find some way that the couriers linked up with the nerve-agent before delivering it to the sleeper-agent in Salisbury. Is there really enough time in the government timeline for that?
But your theory doesn’t really make sense: if those couriers arrived in the UK for the purpose of delivering a nerve-agent to a “sleeper” assassin in Salisbury then they would give that assassin strict instructions to “Wait until we are out of the country, OK? Whatever you do, don’t do it when we are still on the bus to Heathrow”.
Heck, maybe they delivered it to Skripal because HE was the sleeper assassin activated to kill Pablo Miller.
And what happened is that Yulia spotted the perfume bottle and innocently decided to take a quick whiff .
I mean, honestly, that is just as plausible as your explanation.
After all, if UK authorities do want to search around for a Russian spook who is lying low and living a quiet life in Salisbury then there’s one candidate I could name right off the bat: Sergei Skripal..
I think you maybe right. The casual couple leaving a trail a mile wide does not fit the pattern of trained assassins. More like they have come over for a quick personal meeting.That fits the facts better. Reports stated that back in March officials were searching all CCTV together with travel arrangements so they have had plenty of time to come up with this story.Looks like they may have known about them for some time. Which raises the question why release the information now? They must have more on them that we are being told (the ludicrous story of finding a nerve agent trace in their hotel must have helped with the charge – what is a ‘trace’ of a military nerve agent anyway? Isn’t even a speck enough to kill). From what I’ve read it seems to be some petty Russian deal gone bad – I don’t think Yulia being there was an accident. Possibly overlooked by DS Bailey the meeting went bad and the Skripals were poisoned – with a quick acting non deadly drug – as a warning, with Bailey getting a dose when he went to aid them. The story then spiralled with the government spotting a chance to kick Putin. As soon as it was known a Russian was involved it had to be Putin with military grade nerve agents – this stated as fact within a few days!
I was troubled by the perfume bottle story at first. Did it come from Charlie first and then the MSM just followed up as a fact? I remember reading all official reports just said a bottle or container. The idea a hiding in a perfume bottle is problematic for all kinds of reasons (one major theory is it came over in a diplomatic bag, which begs the question why disguise it anyway). Charlie said the top of the bottle came away in his hands. Seems to have been constructed in a poor way for something so dangerous. Glass no matter how hard can shatter – the bottle doesn’t look like strengthened glass. Anyway Charlie said the bottle still had it’s plastic wrapping – if it was the original Skripal poison why take the time to wrap something up you are going to dump (don’t get me started on the non emptied charity bin). So maybe more than one bottle – then why take so long to release an image of it. There may be others. How can they possibly not rule this out. If true they’ve put the public at risk. If it’s not true it doesn’t matter. The only explanation for this bottle, is as said before, to prove the nerve agent was really deadly after the failed Skripal attack and continue to blame Putin. Someone really really wants us to believe in Novichok.
I seem to remember a neighbour reporting that charlie and dawn brought something back to the flat that they appeared to be trying to hide? doesn’t sound like a perfume bottle to me!
I didn’t know it was claimed that the perfume bottle was dumped months later. And can one really beleive Rowley ? So far he has claimed he was contaminated when the bottle splintered which he had to retract, and also that it was a Russian make when Nina Ricci is certainly not Russian. Then there was Dawn’s friend who claimed Dawn had got sick from something she and/or Rowley had found in Queen Elizabeth Gardens where I presume she would probably be accustomed to hiding her drug stash as addicts do in London at least and especially as it was just round the corner to the hostal where she lived and where she certainly couldn’t take drugs.
As far as I recall a perfume bottle was first suggested in March after it was stated to be a nerve agent but before the door lever was said to be the method of contamination when a theory that Yulia might have bought it with her inadvertently after it had been secreted into her bag by Russian secret services entering her flat at night, one of the possibilities was it could have been disguised in a perfume bottle. Another theory was that it could have been given to her as a wrapped perfume as a present to give to her father, etc., all of which seemed a bit too way out.
Stephen McIntyre on Twitter asks an interesting question: why did the UK give visas to people who they believe to be GRU officers, while denying visas to Skripal’s closest family?
GRU is Military Intelligence used for military purposes. The fact that MI6 is supposedly “Military Intelligence” but reports to FCO not MoD suggests that the only interest GRU might have in salisbury is Porton Down itself
putin: “look, things have gone very well in syria, the presidential election is next week, and we’re hosting the world cup this summer.
so, what i need to do now is something that will get all my haters in the west up on their hind legs shrieking that i’m a monster. it’s all part of my cunning plan. now, lets see….
how about poisoning some old clown we released years ago, in the land that is perhaps my most strident critic? i don’t care if that sounds crazy, I just want it done, okay? okay. and listen, this is important – i want it to be brazen but totally botched by amateurs ….is that clear?
great, lets do it. the benefit of doing this to myself and russia is going to be absolutely huge, I can feel it.”
It may have escaped your attention, but Putin did benefit to a great extent in the presidential elections from this crisis all blowing up. It allowed him to energise the country against all the “Russophobia”. Don’t believe me? That’s exactly what Andrei Kondrashov, Putin’s campaign spokesman, said at the time.
And as for the “Putin would never do this with the World Cup coming up” deflection, I remind you that Putin actually annexed Crimea _during_ the Sochi Winter Olympics, with his Little Green Men and all that, that he later admitted were Russian troops. He clearly cares more about projecting power than he does about his reputation, even during a major sporting event.
There was no annexation. The people of Crimea voted overwhelming to join the Russian Federation. Expression of democracy is support by UN charter. They had every right to have the vote.
Absolutely and imo the only they willl find a solution for Crimea is for Ukraine and the West to agree to organize another referendum with independent observers and to agree to go with the results which imo will be overwhelmingly to remain with Russia and the sooner they start swallowing their pride and considering this the better for all of us.
Were are the Skripals now ?
They haven’t been seen in public for quite some time.
Does the secure accommodation extended to them simply consist of a couple of slabs of concrete ?
Habeas corpora.
Cousin Viktoria said the other day that a friend of Yulia’s met with her in London, bringing her buckwheat. This suggests Sergei is still alive: buckwheat came up back in March as a special Russian food that he missed. Yulia brought some with her. (Buckwheat was considered, along with Yulia’s cosmetics and flowers for the deceased son Alexandr, as a possible route of bringing in targeted poison.)
Viktoria said further Yulia was not currently living in London though she and Sergei had been in late July. Viktoria herself still cannot get a visa.
No one has seen or heard from Sergei. Being older and in worse initial health, he may have been more affected though we have no idea of their relative doses. Yulia has said Sergei’s voice was wheesy because of a tracheotomy tube still in place, to be removed on about July 30. According to a Russian tv show, Yulia called her grandmother Yelena in late July to wish her a happy 90th birthday. Sergei did not speak to his mother at this time.
Other than that, it is unclear whether Sergei and Yulia are still prisoners. Although Yulia has phone access from time to time, there is no evidence for freedom of movement or unfettered communication. Viktoria has the peculiar phone number for Yulia’s devise but cannot call in.
Conceivably the Skripals would agree that this is in their own best interest in terms of safety. More likely, they are being sidelined so as not to derail the official narrative. There is no timeline as to when they will be released.
The UK has backed off from demolishing the houses of Sergei and DS Bailey. The houses are currently being decontaminated (with swabs?) although no data has ever been presented that the premises were actually affected (the cat did ok; police visited many times in street clothes). It has never been clear whether Sergei actually owned the house outright, had a mortgage, or if the property title still belonged to the State.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6875498/novichok-sergei-skripal-tracheotomy-russia-cant-speak/
I puzzled about that the same. To my knowledge it has never once been said, whether by officials or the MSM, that they found any traces of Novichok inside the house. Strange, because if there were traces in Zizi’s and The Mill, the first place they would have left traces would be the house, unless of course they were contaminated as they left it and in which case with the time line of the GRU guys they must have smeared it on the door lever with the Skripals inside which doesn’t seem very probable unless apart from apparently wanting to be CCTVed the GRU’s also wanted to be caught out!
Another possibility also very dodgy because of the timing, is that the Skripals returned from being out all morning to pick something up, have a pee, or whatever. Certainly you would think that the quantity they had on them just after receiving it at the door would be higher than what they still had left on them by the time they got to the restaurant and the pub, so more likely some would come off onto whatever they touched inside. Maybe the Skripals have been talking and told investigators that they did go back home to pick something up and the timing they gave must have been after the GRU’s smeared the door handle. But in this case the timing would have a bit too close for comfort for them to not have both coincided at Sergei’s front door the Skripals and the GRUs, one of them with a perfume bottle fitted with a squirter in their hand pointed at the lever… Hi Sergei, just passing…!
“To my knowledge it has never once been said, whether by officials or the MSM, that they found any traces of Novichok inside the house.”
That would be inconsistent with the Novichok-on-the-door-handle theory, so no surprise there.
“unless of course they were contaminated as they left it and in which case with the time line of the GRU guys they must have smeared it on the door lever with the Skripals inside”
True enough. Before this Two-Dudes-From-Russia revelation the story had been that the doorknob must have been smeared the night before. That is now no longer tenable since those two suspects were still in London that night. It actually removes a gaping flaw in the original story.
“which doesn’t seem very probable unless apart from apparently wanting to be CCTVed the GRU’s also wanted to be caught out!”
Indeed. I find that very improbable. If you are going to walk up to that door in daylight then why not simply knock on the door and shoot the old guy when he answered?
Mind you, maybe they were known to Skripal and they went to the house to have a meeting with him, and then applied the Novichok to the door as they left?
Stonkislav:
“Using fake Russian passports, two senior GRU operatives will fly direct from Moscow to London by Aeroflot. On Saturday they will travel to Salisbury by public transport. They will make no attempt to conceal their features; on the contrary, they will parade around ostentatiously ensuring they are spotted by as many CCTV cameras as possible. In the evening they will return to their hotel and open the container holding the world’s deadliest nerve agent, conveniently ensuring the room is contaminated. On Sunday they will return to Salisbury, again by public transport. Again they will make no attempt to conceal their features; instead they will ensure they are spotted by as many CCTV cameras as possible. In broad daylight on a Sunday afternoon they will march up to Skripal’s front door, ignoring the risk that Skripal himself might open the door at any time, or that they might be spotted by neighbours. Wearing no protective clothing at all, they will then smear or spray – we’re not quite sure which yet – the world’s deadliest nerve agent on the handle. Afterwards they will return to the station. At some point they will casually hoy the remains of the world’s deadliest nerve agent into some bushes. Having completed their mission, they will then fly direct back from London to Moscow…”
Vladimir:
“What an absolutely fantastic plan! I say… GO FOR IT!!!”
It’s only when you set the whole thing down in black and white that you realise how inane the story is.
I don’t need to ask what kind of a liar would stand up in public and spout this drivelling tripe – “A British politician” is the answer to that one. What I struggle to understand is how any member of the public with two brain cells to rub together could persuade themselves that there’s a grain of truth in it.
The public don’t believe any of it. Not the members I know at any rate.
hoy? sounds like geordie spy somewhere about??
Great comment… has made my day.
As you say, it’s only when you put it down like that is when you realise the complete absurdity of the whole caboodle.
There is no mystery. It is all made up nonsense. It is Theatre, using actors and a former spy and his daughter, who have probably been paid off and relocated elsewhere where they will remain just as anonymous as they were a year ago, when virtually no one had ever heard of them.
It is just more propaganda to demonise Russia. The timing of the current release is to provide propaganda support for a false flag chemical attack in Syria, which has already been so well documented, that it probably now will not happen.
Take a step back, and reread and reassess the entire story from March, which changed on an almost daily basis , because it was all so impossibly ludicrous.
Stop trusting the media and the government (as you have been groomed since birth to trust authority). They are not only lying, they are not making any sense, and some of it is deliberate to befuddle your mind. They are not looking after your interests. They are looking after the interests of the extremely rich and powerful who control them.
They are bending your mind, and your worldview. They want your support for more war. You are being played.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article202717.html
Tony
Well said, fellow Tony. Sums up everything.
We don’t know what to believe. One thing is for sure: Theresa’s May’s fairy tale about Vladimir Putin sending Dumbov and Dumberov is the least likely of all the stories we have been fed. The plot has more holes than a Swiss cheese and makes the tv version of Vanity Fair look plausible.
Timing is a key in observing who gets vilified and when. The fake poison gas plot to enable an attack by the West on Syria didn’t work, so Plan B comes back – slag off Mr. Putin. It is nothing but a game of “Pin the Tail on the Donkey”. Vladimir Putin is not likely to stand still long enough to allow himself to be cast as the Donkey.
Vilifying Jeremy Corbyn as a racist and NeoStalin will backfire as well. I would have thought they would have kept that name-calling strategically until closer to the next UK General Election. Now we know for sure how much the State of Israel meddles in British politics, and who its operatives are. Also the focus on Israel has increased and not everyone is impressed by what they see.
Just wait for March is all I want to add. The Conservatives cannot deliver what they promised with Brexit, and whatever they do will annoy probably considerably more than half of the UK population. If you voting in or you voted out, what May will deliver will not be what you wanted. Theresa May won’t be able to blame Putin, China, Isis, or any ethnic group – the disgruntlement will be entirely of her Party’s making. Where will they pin the tail?
Tony, I wouldn’t be so sure that the fake chemical attack won’t take place. The main thing this Skripal story demonstrates is the utter contempt the political classes have for the British public.
Go to the Daily Mail website. Pick a Skripal story. Load the comments, and sort by “most popular”. Look at them. Page after page of comments denouncing the whole thing as lying nonsense. Count the upticks against the downvotes. By a factor of ten or twenty to one, the Daily Mail readership are condemning this pack of lies. And that’s the Daily Mail. Breitbart readers are condemning it as a pack of lies. (Laughably, the place where it’s likely to get most support is among the Guardian readership.)
Look at this blog. Among hundreds of commenters, half a dozen morons lamely parroting the party line. So where is the government getting its public support? Nowhere, is the answer. And you know what? They don’t care. They’ve discovered that as long as the media presents a united front, it doesn’t actually matter what the public think. They can simply pretend to themselves and to the world that they are at the vanguard of a mass movement of opposition to Russia. And Bashir Assad. And his “chemical attacks”.
Assad is going to get it, whether we like it or not. Syria is going to get it,whether we like it or not. If they can’t get regime change by toppling Assad, they’ll get it through the total destruction of Syria, as they destroyed Libya, and they’ll happily leave the survivors cringing under the jackboot of whichever Islamofascist manages to grab power in whatever area.
And there is absolutely nothing the British people can do about it.
My thoughts exactly.
There is a meme running through all of this and I think we can all guess the end game.
After this story broke again Wednesday evening I woke up Thursday to find the whole of the MSM in sync banging the (war) drum.
Reminded me of that Day today sketch with Chris Morris – Donald Bethlehem – ‘its war Chris!’ …
everybody seems to forget that this”spy” was a double agent, it could have been us or the yanks to blame,
As relations with Russia and Britian have been bad, survey MI5 or MI6 would check every flight coming from Russia for secret agents or people of interest especially after the murder of the other Russian national?
Have Theresa and co factored into their play acting the fact that President Putin could switch off our gas supply at a stroke if he so decided? Winter is coming soon to Broken Britain Theresa.
Yes, but the EU could then rely on Saudi Arabia and UAE our partners (in crime). Better Islam than seculars, Marxists or Greek Orthodox Christians is the EU/US twisted motto.
Odd sort of spies fly in together directly from Moscow with no disguises and smile for the cameras and then botch the job and chuck the remnants in the lot cal park. I’m pretty hopeless at anything covert so perhaps they’d take me on.
There is internal rivalry in the police as in any organisation and a mix of anger and envy at the ‘elite’ cops getting all the ‘anti-terrorist’ spending at a time of general cuts with the new super-cops looking down on the plods who know its all contrived and want to expose it.
This can be encouraged further by appealing to their patriotism and so Corbyn should point out Russia was an ally in two world wars and then turn scepticism into a warning the anti-Russian rhetoric undermines the national interest and threatens war and more immigration.
Surely there is a real patriot in the system who cannot stand for this fakery and deceit. This disrespect for our gentile intelligence is talmudic and masonic hubris, a person in the know, a 99%er should now step forward and rid us of this government of 1%ers. Please?!? Its time we had an anti-semantic Jeremy Corbyn at 10 Downing.
Cringe cringe. Blair on R 4 undermining Corbyn.
I really feel for poor Tony. He does after all have The Great British Public in his blood. Literally – so it seems. He always seems to know what The Great British Public will do and he is sure that The Great British Public would never accept someone as obviously demonic as Corbyn – a man who has done everything in his evil power to warp the true soul of Labour as a brown noser to the vested interests.
The Blair Broadcasting Corpiration devoted a long time to TB followed by two minutes devoted to a Corbyn supporter, then another long period to Blunkett also anti Corbyn.
An amusing aside to this is, it was the headline story on the beeb website this morning, with a large photo of Blair looking quite evil. The story was moved down the page later, with a new photo of Blair looking a bit windswept. They’ve changed the photo again now to a smiling Blair.
Attention now daily on Idlib. The west is now very concerned about the fate of al Qaeda in the province.
The new signal is ‘there are no more Idlibs’. The civilians will be reconciled but will the terrorists be repatriated to where they came from with open arms?
This is from a Wikipedia article on foreign fighters in Syria, extract concerning U.K. no wonder there is a worry about no further Idlibs.
TB’s broadcast was an open declaration of war on Corbyn. I like how Owen Jones mentioned how he could perhaps redeem himself by stopping making money out of advising suppressive regimes.
Maybe it was a training exercise, on a not so important target, but one which would have satisfied a certain perverse humour in the GRU..!!!
Even a training exercise should be carried out with a degree of competence. The sheer ineptitude makes no sense at all unless it’s someone deliberately trying to set up the Russians.
Perhaps they were work experience GRU?
It was Hillary wot done it.
Hate to suggest a conspiracy theory but what if the whole thing was preplanned? The two patsies/recruits were involved in a prearranged choreographed action. Nobody was meant to be hurt but something went wrong in Amesbury perhaps either a rogue element took advantage.
For what reason is the question. Someone must gain from this but I can’t see how.
Demonisation of Russia which has been built up since 2000. Have you not been following events?
I have and there are other ways to demonise a country but I agree with you that this has reached hysteria level. I also think it’s about spreading fear.
It strikes me that they must have immediately known who did this. It’s inconceivable that a retired double agent let alone one that continues to work, would not have full CCTV and surveillance equipment throughout his property and street. So why drag it out months and then bring it back just as Summer recess finishes. They have also decided not to pursue extradition as it would be ‘futile’ yet this looks an amateur job on every level so perhaps more chance of getting an extradition. The whole thing looks dumb, amateurish and opportunistic. It’s baffling!
I too am baffled over motive in any side. It’s like some elaborate charade we are watching. I really do not buy the idea of UK government operatives chucking away novichok agent in fake perfume containers in the heart of a historic British city to demonize Russia.. And what were Boshirov and Petrochemical doing in Salisbury on a chilly weekend in March. Sightseeing ? Really (. rolls eyes). Laying a false trail? Passing on the Novichok abent to their local sleeper? I do think there may be Russian sleepers in Salisbury. It seems to be home to a number of secret service operatives including our own, not just Russian ex spies.
Maybe the pair are criminal hitmen rather than state agents. Sergey Skripal was extremely greedy and his motivations were always money which is why he is detested in Russia. Julia had been trying to transfer funds of her dead brother to her father’s account. Perhaps that’s why they were both targeted. State agents would not kill a child of a traitor or put others at risk through reckless behaviour.
No. Her brother Alexandr’s estate consisted of a half-share in a house sale. The other half went to his wife, now re-married to a tennis coach in Cyprus. Sergei received the initial half-settlement from the executor. After some paperwork, the $200k was turned over to Yulia who deposited it in a Moscow bank.
Theft of that money by the disappearing fiancé has come up several times as a possible motive. However now it appears that the fiancé Stepan Vikeev and Yulia are still very much an item. It is not clear whether the disapproving stepmother Tatiana, daughter of Soviet war heroes, has reconciled herself to a marital union. She and her son supposedly had obscure secondary associations with state security agencies.
That’s out then. My thoughts are based on the ineptitude of the job. I can’t believe those people work for the state. Maybe Sergey was involved in drugs or something. His distress in the restaurant suggests he knew something was afoot.
“My thoughts are based on the ineptitude of the job. I can’t believe those people work for the state”
Teresa May is as much as shouting from the roof-tops that Vladimir Putin personally ordered the hit.
So imagine you are the head of the GRU, and you are given a kill order that came from The Head Honcho Himself.
Do you:
a) assign your very best team to the job, with all the resources that only a state can provide?
b) give it to a couple of clowns who don’t even know enough tradecraft to STOP STARING INTO THE CCTV?
Which one would you choose?
if they did extradite, where in this ‘so-called’ UK could they get a fair trial? TM says they’re guilty, the media says they’re guilty most MP’s say they’re guilty, so it’s off with their heads and sod justice!
The Russians can’t extradite. Their constitution expressly prohibits it.