Staring at the screen in disbelief as the BBC broadcast a preview of a quite literally soft focus “interview” of Theresa May by a simpering Nick Robinson. North Korean stuff. For Panorama.
“Prime Minister, a lot of people liked it when you described yourself as a bloody difficult woman”. Astonishingly sycophantic stuff from the state broadcaster.
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Russians are saying Latakia was bombed by the Israeli’s. Russian military sources are expecting NATO to respond at any minute with precision air strikes on Tel Aviv. That last bit was bollocks, obviously.
Israel has a moral high ground, presumably a lot easier to lob bombs from up there. But wouldn’t a moral high ground make them think twice about shooting their neighbours children? I mean, they are all the way down there, and you are all the way up there? And they’ve had their fair share of problems too, ask native Americans. I can only suppose Israeli elites really need this war on Syria to keep going. But is the eternal war thing even that popular with ordinary Israeli’s or is it very much like here? Does anyone know?
On a positive note, for once Guardian, BBC and Human Rights Watch are all over it. Several critical reports out tonight. Those last two sentences were total bollocks.
Russian military plane with 14 on board disappears during Israeli strikes on Latakia
Published time: 17 Sep, 2018 22:42
Edited time: 18 Sep, 2018 05:22
https://www.rt.com/news/438673-russian-il20-disappears-radars/
[Ref- Oded Yinon – The Plan for a Greater Israel]
CNN cites an unnamed US official as saying it was the Syrian government that brought down the Russian plane, while trying to strike back at Z__nist warplanes.
Or in other words th US official is saying the Russian plane was brought down by friendly fire.
did he say israel was accidentally hitting targets in syria too?
Accidental, like targeting the power station in Latakia.
https://southfront.org/russian-il-20-disappears-from-radars-while-israeli-warplanes-strike-syria/
He would say that, wouldn’t he?
CNN is barely credible as a AT&T mouthpiece and simply recycles State Dept propaganda. What is interesting is how Turkey acted after having a visit from Heiko Maas of Germany and the prospect of a state visit to Berlin – and how France linked up with Israel to launch a pre-emptive strike on Syria and Russia.
That Putin gave Erdogan responsibility for removing heavy weapons from Idlib by 10 Oct and persuading the terrorists to leave and then the attack came is interesting. To down an IL-20 Electronic Warfare/ AWACS plane is provocative because that comes after it has identified the French ship Auvergne as source of incoming missiles – StormShadow no doubt – and no doubt the Russian Navy had monitored this incoming traffic.
Russia knows exactly what happened and is waiting for backchannels to explain WHY
@Paul Greenwood: “To down an IL-20 Electronic Warfare/ AWACS plane is provocative because that comes after it has identified the French ship Auvergne as source of incoming missiles…
What had identified the missiles incoming to Latakia as being from the Auvergne, not from the IAF F-16s? The ELINT plane, or the shore batteries? How do you know, please? I ask because the identification of the Auvergne as source of the incoming missiles may be mendacious, to protect Israel. We need to know where it enters the signal chain.
Today’s announcement that it was May’s way or the highway represents an important step towards the grand finale of the Brexit show. If you assume as I do that ‘no deal’ was the plan along, you’ll understand that the last two years have really been a process of eliminating possibilities so that we are left facing this binary choice.
And, of course, it’s inevitible that the Chequers Proposal will be rejected by the EU. It’s completely impracticable and does nothing towards answering the Irish border question.
Again, if you assume the plan all along was ‘no deal’, it makes perfect sense to offer a deal that you know the EU will reject. The BBC and the Labour Party are in on this; the rank and file of Corbyn’s Labour are not in on it though and are starting to look and feel a bit ripped off and stupid.
My advice to people out there who want to understand British politics is to distinguish between the British State and the political parties who serve it. It’s clear that there’s the equivalent of a three-line whip on a ‘no deal’ Brexit; Labour and the Tories are contractually obliged and committed to ensuring that outcome.
Remember, it was the BBC that more or less put Brexit on the agenda. It wasn’t for entertainment purposes that they started giving UKIP, a party with no MPs, all that airplay on programs like Question Time and News broadcasts.
By the same token, the idea that Cameron offered the EU referendum on the basis that he wanted to neutralise a party with no MPs is beyond paradoxical. Since when do you neutralise political opponents by giving them what they want?
It’s all horseshit.
The bewildered herd was talked into Brexit. Once the idea had germinated in enough minds, we were offered a referendum from out of nowhere. You might think it’s extremely sinister that the central (and only) policy plank of a party with zero MPs can be rammed down our throats like this, but you’d be mistaken; the decision to push Brexit was an executive decision, one well above Nigel farcical Farage’s pay grade.
The interesting thing is the question why — why?
Sometimes you can neutralise political opponents by giving them what they want, Bismarck being the go-to case. Other than that, I agree.
So…why? The CIty must feature large in any explanation.
Certainly a lot of money is going to be made fast as things fall apart, and this is far bigger than “Black Wednesday” or Iceland.
The whole propaganda process started before 2016 and it’s continuing. You are quite right that the decision must have been taken very high up and that the BBC is pro-Brexit. “Suicide belt” must have taken some coming up with: a destructive foreign boa-constrictor-like hug, turning Bri-tain into Bri-tainstan. These were the undertones. Xenophobia is still rising.
N, Bismarck didn’t give anything of that scale to anyone.
It simply doesn’t make sense that UKIP got all that free airplay on the BBC and other networks when its share of the vote in the 2005 general election was 2.8% (an all-time high at that time), rising to 3.5% in 2010.
And it doesn’t make sense that Cameron felt compelled by pressure to offer a referendum to a party that had such little support and clout.
Almost nobody was interested in pulling out of Europe in 2005. Goldsmith dissolved his Referendum Party in 1997 for a reason — the idea was dead on the water.
The only thing that changed, when you look at it, was the way that UKIP suddenly found itself getting invited to talk on TV. The trigger, as far as I can make out, was the credit crunch.
One day Farage was presented as a maverick crackpot who attracted racists, and the next he was on TV being offered a referendum.
@Hatuey,
I think that you need to read up a bit more on share of the vote and elections, because UKIP managed 12.6% of the vote in the 2015 general election, which was more than the Liberal Democrats, and we don’t hear you complaining about the amount of airtime a has been politician like Nick Clegg gets.
In the European elections in 2014, UKIP with 27.5% of the votes and 24 MEP’s were the largest British party in the European parliament.
As a Labour (true Labour) supporter, I am all too aware of what happens when you try to misrepresent the facts about other parties and what their real following is and how powerful they are.
Andy, by 2015 the seeds had been planted and germinated in the minds of the public.
If alqaeda was given the sort of free publicity that UKP was given between 2010 and 2015, we would probably be a caliphate by now.
@Hatuey,
At the 2010 General Election, UKIP polled over 900,000 votes, nearly twice as much as the SNP 491,000 and more than 3 times as much as the Green Party 265,000, and believe me, both the Greens and SNP had every bit as much airtime as UKIP.
Andy
You cannot compare the UKIP vote with the SNP! You’re not comparing like with like. The SNP only stand in Scotland for goodness sake.
Europe has torn the Tory party apart for as long as I can remember. The referendum was a calculated gamble to finally put issue to rest so we could all join hands and move forward into a fully federalised EU. Buoyed by the Scottish referendum they were certain they were going to win it.
Commenters here make the mistake of thinking everything is planned in advance in some grand conspiracy. They then have to try to explain the reasoning behind it all, which they can’t. Because it wasn’t planned in advance that Britain would leave the EU. It was and still is a spectacular shock that the British people made this decision.
You talk freely about a federal EU superstate being planned in advance then chastise people for thinking everything is planned in advance…. implying they are simplistic kids or something.
Not great at this coherence thing, are you…
Brexit voters are the most fruity conspiracy theorists you’ll ever find, right up there with the New World Order crackpots.
“By the same token, the idea that Cameron offered the EU referendum on the basis that he wanted to neutralise a party with no MPs is beyond paradoxical. Since when do you neutralise political opponents by giving them what they want?”
He wanted to neutralise the Eurosceptics in his own party. Also the Tories were losing a lot of voters to UKIP, who had overtaken the LibDems to become the third most popular party. UKIP were given airtime because despite having only one seat, they received just under 4 million votes in the 2015 election and Farage was widely seen as the face of the campaign to leave the EU.
Hatuey
I am the last person to defend UKIP but to be fair they polled I think up to 15% and when many sears in the European elections with many MEPs. The fact that they had no Maps in Westminster is due to our rather unrepresentative system of elections, where parties can get landslide. I Tories with 40 odd percent of the vote.
The other problem is that UKIP was beggining to make inroads into the Tory votes. The Tories then found it very convenient to almost imperceptibly move to the right with extremely regressive policies. I believe that Cameron’ failed gambit was to avert this, but arrongance made him not see the real dangers and he was to lazy to fight the campaign seriously.
Yes, I understand the cover story. There’s just one problem — no evidence of significantly growing support for UKIP exists for the period 2005 to 2010. The figure of 15% you mention is from the 2015 general election by which time, thanks to the BBC and Cameron amongst others, UKIP’s perceived credibility had increased dramatically.
In the run up to the 2015 election we had the bizarre situation where Farage was being invited to TV leadership debates despite bis party not having even one single MP.
I don’t often disagree with you Hatuey but I’m with SA on this. It always amuses me to see commenters in the Guardain squealing and crying about how often Farage appears on QT. The Guardian sells about 15 copies, but that doesn’t stop QT being a revolving door for its journalists. I’d bet the skin of my erse Guardian journalists have been on QT a lot more often than representatives of UKIP, including Farage.
I did once try to confirm my suspicions by asking the Beeb under FOI how many Guardina journalists have been on the panel in the last ten years. Their answer? You guessed it…
“Information being held for the purposes of journalism… Part VI of Schedule 1 to FOIA”
So the Beeb refused to give me information that is already listed in detail on Wikipedia,* because it’s secret.
*I didn’t just count the names on Wikipedia myself, because I knew I wouldn’t necessarily know everyone who was a Guardian journalist.
Stonky, I’m sure that at least 51.89% of the population disagree with me. Nobody likes to admit they were played. All we need now is an argument with supporting evidence and we have the makings of a debate.
You know, though, the only alternative to my conspiracy theory is that support for Brexit grew naturally, from being virtually zero in 1997 to 15% vote share in 2015. In this case, the BBC, Cameron, and the rest, were merely following public opinion and events.
To prove this was true though you’d need to show a significant rise in support for Brexit before the BBC and Cameron started pandering to UKIP, starting around 2010, not after as is the case here.
The best argument possible outside of mine is that UKIP naturally started gaining a very small amount of support and momentum between 2005 and 2010; and Cameron and the BBC overreacted.
In this explanation you need to assume that the BBC, Cameron, and the rest are extremely thick and prone to making terrible mistakes repeatedly over a period of about 10 years. You need to further assume that the mistakes they made just coincidentally benefitted UKIP.
Since vote share in FPTP general elections might skew things, as someone pointed out, here’s UKIP membership figures over the period 2005 to 2010;
2005: 19,000
2006: 16,000
2007: 15,878
2008: 14,630
2009: 16,252
2010: 15,535
I don’t see a surge in support here, I see declining support. The Flat Earth Society probably had more members. Only after 2010, when Cameron, the BBC, and the rest, started peddling UKIP’s wares do we see anything resembling a surge.
All the QT gen is here.
Episodes/Presenters/Appearances/Panellists etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Question_Time_episodes
“It always amuses me to see commenters in the Guardain squealing and crying about how often Farage appears on QT.”
It’s the only guaranteed safe seat UKIP will ever have.
Some background: as measured in opinion polls, with undecideds disregarded, support for Leave climbed from about 30% to about 40% between 2013 and 2015. (Source.)
UKIP’s electoral rise was important in legitimisation, basically telling people “you can do something about the foreigner problem at the ballot box without voting for Nazis”. But underneath there was another build-up, as is shown in the figures I just quoted, and as was shown in subsequent events. This process is still underway. Most people on the left understand the power of the Sun and the Daily Heil but often there is a severe underestimation of just how cruel and “looking forward to the glorious day” many are who usually vote Tory.
This is about psychology, xenophobia, and the Tory telos.
And even for UKIP, there are two graphs.
General elections:
1997 0.3%
2001 1.5%
2005 2.2%
2010 3.1%
2015 12.6%
EU elections:
1994 1.0%
1999 6.5%
2004 15.6%
2009 16.0% (second place)
2014 26.6% (first place)
Why the disparity here? Because many UKIP voters didn’t give a toss about UKIP, and didn’t think they were suitable for running a government in Westminster, probably mainly because most of them didn’t speak with posh accents. (Dominic Cummings realised that their shtick didn’t play too well with many in the middle classes.) But something was rising… Then you get the huge wave of displaced people coming into Europe, especially Germany.
If you look at sharp’s link below you’ll see that Farage appeared on QT in 2008 when his party was totally flatlining in terms of share of the vote and membership was in decline.
FACT!
Hatuey
You are discussing symptoms without much attention to a broken political symptoms. Even when the Lib Dem’s formed a coalition government with 50 odd seats in 2010 they did not have a much higher share of the popular vote, about 18-20% if I remember correctly. And now we have a minority government with a divided party and effectively rule by a handful of people propped up by the parochial DUP who cannot even agree to have a government in NI making serious decisions on the fate of the U.K. . Sinn Fein leaders must be rather inept to not capitalise in this and get their MPs to vote at Westminster and bring this government down.
This is the measure of it I am afraid.
Meant you are discussing symptoms without addressing the underlying causes.
My emphasis is on the causes of UKIP support, not the symptoms. I’m saying it was caused by the establishment deciding Brexit was a good response to the credit crunch.
I’d say 18 to 20 percent of the popular vote share was a significant amount but UKIP didn’t get near that until 2015, after the British State and its cohorts decided Brexit was a good idea.
The evidence is more specific than I’m suggesting, and I won’t bore you with the details. But it looks like they wanted Brexit but didn’t want UKIP to me.
If you go back to the 2010 GE leadership debates, you see clearly that things like immigration were being pushed heavily from above.
Sinn Fein have got their eyes on bigger fish. They are doing well with how so many in Northern Ireland are fixated on the border even though for most of them in the practicalities of their lives it’s largely irrelevant whether the border is completely open or whether it has massive great rolls of NATO wire along it. But one mustn’t overestimate the role of the truth in Irish politics.
Hatuey, you’re on the right track. Racism is a trickle phenomenon to a large degree, kept simmering for use in times of capital crisis.
The deliberate stirring of xenophobic narratives is the last refuge of the kleptocrat. Israel forming alliances with Ukraine and Hungary, selling the former weapons to carry out it’s neo-Nazi agenda is a marriage of convenience and ideology born out of power, as witnessed by the abhorrence a majority of Jews feel for zionism.
Ethno-Nationalism is a powerful diversionary narrative which cannot be resisted unless one can see what it is and from where it emanates.
Correction: Racism is a trickle down phenomenon…
My emphasis is on the causes of UKIP support, not the symptoms. I’m saying it was caused by the establishment deciding Brexit was a good response to the credit crunch.
The establishment, as embodied by Eton and Oxford educated Cameron, were so in favour of making Brexit a ‘good response to the credit crunch’ that they forbade the civil service from making any contingency planning for a Brexit scenario post the referendum. No wonder in that position the Maybot began acting , and continues to act, as an unguided cruise missile, over compensating for her past as a lukewarm remainer by embracing an utterly unfeasible ‘bespoke deal’ as both achievable and beneficial, when it is neither.
Hatuey in his/her numerous comments here is extruding pure horse manure on this subject.
Remember UKIP performances in EU elections. The Greens got a lot of airtime after winning 15% in 1989. Essentially I agree with you, but you are not distinguishing between the rise in UKIP’s perceived credibility and legitimacy and.the rise of Leaver hopes. Those hopes were whipped up not just by the BBC but by the main private-sector media organisations, in a country where xenophobia is rising and living standards are falling. People felt deprived of an outlet for decades. Most people didn’t have a clue what a single market was, or a customs union, or what federation means, and so on, and they still haven’t got a clue.
Now the leaders of the main parties are saying multiculturalism is lovely, and immigration hasn’t caused lower wages and is generally speaking lovely, and lots of immigrants are going to come here after Brexit who are “doctors”, and so on. It’s not as if the energy has been released, people have had their say, and so on.
Hatuey, I agree that the no deal Brexit is the planned outcome. My theory on why is because the EU is planning on bringing in tax transparency laws – would make it difficult for London to stay the money laundering capital of the west with transparency laws? Don’t want to have to declare all that dodgy dealings. Who knows what else.
Tax Transparency Laws are global not EU. BreXit Unvarnished is the only logical situation because the decision at Lancaster House to leave the Single Market gave up the only thing the UK really needed.
Without Single market what is the point in any “deal” and the EU Commission cannot offer a “deal” because it cannot treat the UK as an “equal” in negotiation. A) because as one of 28 members it is just that one. member. B) because as an Outsider it cannot have a say in structure of the Closed Market.
People in UK seem to misunderstand a Customs Union which is a Protective Wall around a Market Zone. it is somewhat absurd since even something as simple as PMR radios are EU Certified without licence but in Italy a licence is levied and in France it is restricted.
The Single Market is not really even that – there are absurdities such as Nissan as UK largest car exporter exports all its cars to a Swiss Invoicing Centre
I guess you mean global as in the OECD or some other toothless NGO. Contrary is right though, the EU is actually implementing this at pace.
As for Nissan, it’s not an EU company and regardless is free to cook its books where it likes. You have very similar things happening in the US in regards to special status places like the Dominican Republic.
The EU single market with its protective tariff barriers is single enough to those who are on the wrong side of it.
Thanks Hatuey. Have you read or watched any Mark Blyth, the ‘political economist’? I liked his theories on austerity (and why it’s bad), and think he gives interesting insight into the rise of populism. Here’s an example, but there are a fair amount of his presentations on YouTube that you can choose from
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqGITb0W4A
The Nissan cars leave Tyne Dock by ship. Do the ships then sail to Switzerland.
Nissan and Mitsubishi are part of the Groupe Renault Alliance.
Who is on the board of Renault? Why. Mrs Cherie BLiar.
https://group.renault.com/en/our-company/leadership/board-of-directors/cherie-blair/
She also lined up a directorship with the Nigerian cement Dangote billionaire along with Mick Davis.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/dangote-cement-appoints-ex-xstrata-ceo-cherie-blair-to-board
They are ALL in IT together.
Spot on about Nissan tax dodging via Switzerland, not to mention their use of imported Chinese steel instead of UK made steel.
Oh well that proves everything, doesn’t it? lol
Spencer Eagle.
The only British Steel plant to pass the Nissan audit was Ravenscraig. The Nissan contract (7642 from memory) was a mess of contradictory chemistry. Low C, ultra low S, ultra low P, low Al and a low and tight Nb spec.. It was an absolute bugger to make. The sample we sent for approval was pretty much made by accident. When we were awarded the contract we had to begin the long, frustrating and costly exercise of coming up with a reliable method of manufacture. In the last few months before Ravenscraig was shut, we stockpiled the grade as no other UK plant was technically capable of manufacture.
Which reminds me about the outcry about Russian money that came after the Skripal incident and how quickly it died down when the Tories realised how much they are implicated and will loose all these freebies from the oligarchs. Russia should be the one to advertise British interference with Russian politics not the other way round.
Not sure I accept your thesis. Cameron could not get a working majority if large blocs of potential VOTERS chose UKIP. So long as UKIP soaked up votes he could not gain Constituencies and was forced into coalition or thin working majority. After the Osborne-Cameron Show there was no way he could get re-elected without those UKIP voters.
As for Parliament. In 2017 Cons received Popular vote 13,636,684 and Lab. 12,878,460
In 2015.Popular vote Cons 11,334,226. Lab 9,347,273
So between 2015 and 2017 Theresa May recovered a portion of that 17,400,000 Voter Bloc for BreXit
The BreXit Referendum vote was 2015 84% combined Lab + Con Vote. in 2017 it was 66%
ERGO the two main parties recovered Voters in the first BreXit General Election
I suspect Cameron agreed the referendum because he thought it could be easily won and then this victory could be used to trump the earlier promise made by labour and conservative (hardly mentioned in the referendum) to hold a referendum before joining the Euro-currency.
The EU was planning further integration to solve the Euro-crisis and these plans suddenly emerged after the referendum result and Cameron would have claimed his mandate to go along with it. I don’t think “no deal” was the plan all along as the deep state was pro-EU.
Makes sense that he thought he could easily win when support for UKIP was so low.
Media coverage of Ukip helped to increase its support, study says …
https://www.theguardian.com/…/media-coverage-of-ukip-helped-to-increase-its-support-…
5 Aug 2018 – Disproportionate British newspaper coverage of Ukip helped to increase support for the party, according to a new academic study, amid a …
Ukip membership has soared by 15% since Theresa May’s Brexit plan
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ukip-membership-increases/
2 Aug 2018 – Ukip has seen a sharp rise in its membership since Theresa May … Tommy Robinson and welcomed support from alt-right social media figures.
Nigel Farage: Ukip Membership soars after May’s ‘TREASONOUS …
https://www.express.co.uk › News › Politics
21 Jul 2018 – A recent poll from YouGov showed the voting intention for the Ukip party increased from four percent to nine percent after the Chequers …
A Euro-currency referendum would have most likely been lost, but an in or out referendum is the nuclear option and status quo plus economic project fear would most likely win out against euro-scepticism in such a referendum, which was the establishment view.
But the referendum coincided with the neo-con inspired migrant crisis and immigration has the emotional power to cut through economic considerations. Immigration alone at lower levels wouldn’t have had the same impact, but the migrant crisis was also a symptom of the economic misrule that led to Brexit.
The reason UKIP was promoted was to defeat the BNP due to its anti-Zionism under Griffin. The deep state over-reacted due to its obsession with the issue, but in so doing propelled UKIP, which became a Frankenstein monster with a life of its own and far more popular due to its greater respectable middle class appeal.
Hence following the referendum the shocked state acted to break UKIP as they did the BNP, although there remains significant popular support for the message of both, even if not for them.
Just bizarre conspiracy nonsense.
It was Sir James Goldsmith’s Referendum (about the Euro) Party that secured the Labour and Conservative promise to hold a Euro-currency referendum before joining. The Referendum Party was the bigger vote getter of the anti-EU parties at the time until the death of SJG. UKIP was small and was competing with BNP for second place, but BNP was often doing better, partly, ironically because it was being demonized, and so viewed as a more effective way to make a protest against the establishment, securing 2 MEPs and over 500,000 votes in the General Election, when Griffin appeared, set up, on Question Time.
So to spike BNP, UKIP was promoted and as a result did far better because they cast themselves as the respectable middle class anti-racist option with a very articulate advocate/ leader. But Cameron called his referendum to settle the issue and progress imperial EU.
It doesn’t matter what the UK plan was for Brexit as we were always going to get the deal the EU told us we were going to get from the start. This row is an internal Tory row about what fantasy deal we should propose to the EU so that they can reject it.
Aren’t you assuming most UKIP voters switched from the Tories?
Yes, Cameron understood that UKIP was a potential threat to his Tory voter base — he also understood that the establishment by 2010 was keen on Brexit which is why support for UKIP was expected to rise.
As I said, give al qaeda enough publicity in the U.K. or anywhere and more people will come around to their crazy ideas too. That’s how publicity and marketing works.
Cameron’s response was interesting. Rather than watch his support crumble, he made the sensible decision to offer a referendum on Brexit… once he saw that the state was in favour of Brexit, in other words, he offered to facilitate Brexit.
Hatuey, you need to learn a very simple lesson.
The BBC did not put UKIP on Question Time to promote Brexit, they did so because UKIP were gaining large numbers of votes in European elections and were the most voted-for party in 2014. Not to give them a legitimate platform would have been outrageous.
If you will not use basic facts in your arguments, you cannot be surprised if you are not taken seriously.
The BBC is staunchly Remain and its reporting reflects that.
@Rhys,
thank god for a sensible post at last.
The reality of the situation is hard to take for many.
The BBC has been 100% pro remain and used to get Farage on TV in order to ridicule him, something which they rarely managed to do.
Ha! What programmes were you watching? He was regularly trounced and beaten on facts when he appeared on QT. He then started to use this to his advantage by claiming the other parties were ganging up on him, or were in the pay of Brussels etc. In reality, up against half-intelligent opposition, Farage’s rhetoric failed miserably and his hypocrisy was laid bare.
And why was he on question time? This is key to understanding where Brexit came from. A protest party with zero seats was basically put on tv everywhere to argue its case and the government of the day decided it would run with its own policy and make it a reality.
Nobody thanks you for explaining how they were duped. But you were.
In Scotland, Farage and his merry men didn’t get the sort of accommodation in the media and with the government that he took for granted in England. Consequently, UKIP didn’t make any headway in Scottish elections — not even in Holyrood which is determined by PR. Note that even here though they managed to win a European seat in 2014.
You’re intellectualising it. That may be what you thought when you say Farage on Question Time. It is obvious that Farage’s media exposure in the years running up to 2016 helped both UKIP and Leave. Most people don’t know what rhetoric is.
He was ridiculed because he is the only person not joining in with the ‘accepted’ propaganda stream spouted by the other parties of all persuasions and the MSM. In other words, because he doesn’t toe the line. He was in fact the only one usually to speak intelligently and cogently and to talk sense – but that’s anathema these days. But if you like to be gullible and believe that anyone who challenges Farage must be right, then more’s the pity. We see this happen on MSM all the time, not just to Farage, but to anyone who chooses to dispute the ‘official line’ with intelligent arguments.
“And why was he on question time? This is key to understanding where Brexit came from. A protest party with zero seats was basically put on tv everywhere…”
Come off it Hatuey. QT isn’t supposed to run in parallel with the UK’s FPTP general electoral system. It has a wider remit than that. Whether you like it or whether I like it, UKIP were already getting almost 16% of the vote in the 2004 European election – an election in which a UKIP vote wasn’t a wasted vote. In UK general elections, a UKIP vote has always been a wasted vote, all the way up to and including 2015 when they won 13% of the vote.
“How many seats did they get in the UK general election?” should be bottom of the list of criteria when deciding how much exposure a party should get on QT.
All this speculation about the Deep state machinations of Menthorn Media in their selection of QT panels and not a single mention of RATINGS.
I haven’t watched QT in decades. It treats its audience like Pavlov’s dogs. They put Melanie Philips on so I throw things at the telly and they put George Galloway on so Daily Mail readers do likewise.
Still, the number of times mew Farage is on is a tad suspicious.
“Not to give them a legitimate platform would have been outrageous.”
Rhys.
That doesn’t mean anything, the SNP are the second largest political party in the UK, yet they don’t feature too much on QT.
Membership wise, that is.
Rhys, you make a valid point, even if your tone is (as usual) somewhat suicide inducing. I haven’t mentioned UKIP’s apparent strength in EU elections but I’m eager to do so.
You need to take the following into account when assessing UKIP’s comparative success in European elections.
1) turnout in EU elections in the U.K. is always shockingly low. In the last 40 years it has never once risen above 40%. This makes winning easier in terms of the number of votes you need to succeed and it is accepted that low turnout often makes elections less predictable / more volatile in terms of allowing smaller parties to make inroads. I’ve researched the effects of voter turnout in detail, so by all means get back to if you want to be bored to destruction.
2) EU elections are determined using proportional representation. In PR systems people are more incentivised to vote — since their vote will count — which makes point 1 above all the more interesting.
3) UKIP was/is a one trick pony and its only trick concerned Europe. Hardly surprising that it motivated more people to support it in EU elections when the EU is its very reason for being. We also know that UKIP took EU elections very seriously under Farage.
There was a debate in UKIP around whether they should even take part in EU elections about 20 years ago. We know, of course, that Farage won the debate. His reasoning, based on memory, was that it would be easy pickings in bang for buck terms and provide much needed finance to the movement. He understood that the muted support he had in general elections would be magnified in EU PR determined Ned elections.
That UKIP did so well, and increasingly well, in EU elections is because people used the elections as a protest vote. The referendum too was used as a protest vote. Most Leavers who have it in their stupid heads that “the EU was always telling us what to do” don’t understand the difference between the EU parliament and the EU Commission but they do notice the local carwash and the increased number of burglaries in the area. There is little history of using Westminster elections for protest voting. What is certain is that xenophobia will continue to rise, and that those parties and politicians who continue to treat with contempt people’s experiences and feelings related to the impact of immigration on their lives will find that their support diminishes.
turnout in EU elections in the U.K. is always shockingly low. In the last 40 years it has never once risen above 40%.
In how many EU countries is participation in the Euro elections ‘shockingly high’- or even at the same level or higher than turnout in national elections ?
And returning to the publicity platform UKIP in general and Farage in particular exploited following their repeated successes in these elections the same thing happened post 1989 on a smaller scale (as it proved to be a flash in the pan, and not a sustained trend) in respect of the Green Party and its then leader Jonathon Porritt- who was over the media like a rash in that aftermath of that Euro election.
Again, UKIP/ Farage was on QT in 2008 when his party had virtually zero electoral support and falling membership. Go figure.
He was promoted when flat lining to spike BNP which was doing better at the time and had an anti-Zionist leader.
Rhys, communication would improve if you were willing to imbibe basic concepts, concepts that are introduced specifically in response to the stuff you insist on repeating.
For the last time, Farage was on QT twice – not in 2014 when support for Brexit had started to manifest — but in 2008. Importantly, UKIP support was in decline in 2008, membership of UKIP fell by almost 25% between 2005 and 2010. There are other indicators too.
Now, nobody is contesting that support for Brexit at a grassroots level appeared after 2010. But it only appeared because it was cultivated by the media, including the BBC, and other actors. It’s important to give emphasis to the order here, the choreography if you will.
Hatuey you ask Why?
Here are a couple of clues.
From Richard Murphy’s site
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/09/15/43084/
And todays Groan! Cards on the table time for brexit masterminds and robber barons.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs
Not a whimper of incredulity! The MSM in full throttle kamikazi blitzkrieg to stun the population into accepting their rule over us as inevitable and good!
Some tired gate keeping and damage limitation by some here in trying to not answer your very good question ‘Why?’
Dungroanin, here you have made one of the most significant comments that I have ever read on Craig Murray’s website. Congratulations. I have admired Richard Murphy for many years, btw.
I’m currently working on the “why” part myself. It’s very interesting.
The question over public opinion doesn’t even make sense when you scratch at it — since when was high policy ever driven by public opinion. No. Never.
Brexit came from the dark core of the British establishment, of that you we be certain.
No commercial flights over Syria at the moment, i wonder why?
https://ibb.co/fjLYKz
Billy
This has been the case for the last few years, partly due to the war and partly due to sanctions. It is also not surprising that with at least 4 NATO member’s airforces and Israeli AF on one side and Russian and Syrian AF on the other, all bombing various rebels or government forces, the situation is not conducive to safe civilian flights.
Makes Ukraine in 2014 look very peaceful and uncomplicated.
Ukraine is ripe for dismemberment – as soon as Germany gives the word Poland will have Galicia just as it eagerly took Teschen from Czechoslovakia in 1938
Because of the regular “peaceful” Israeli missile strike on Syria.
This time looks like with support from French frigate Auvergne. … And casualty – one Russian maritime patrol aircraft.
Some warmonger missed the opportunity with Idlib provocation to start the WW3 and now trying other approach 🙁
There is a No-Fly Zone with Russian Air Defence Radar and US Radar screen out of the Kurd areas and the US airbase.
Insurers tend to have a big say in flight plans
An excellent expose of how our taxpayer’s money is spent helping organisations affiliated with terrorist organisations in Syria. Vanessa Bailey true investigative journalism.
https://21stcenturywire.com/2017/12/02/white-helmets-local-councils-uk-fco-financing-terrorism-syria-taxpayer-funds/
SA….thanks for the link.
What is Macron up to?
Russia detects missile launches from French frigate off Syria’s coast in Mediterranean
https://www.rt.com/news/438676-french-frigate-mediterranean-missiles/
17 Sep 2018 | 22:56 GMT
Macron is doing what he is told.
“Macron is doing what he’s told.”
Oh come on! Ever since France got “the treatment” for not joining in with Iraq it’s fallen over itself to get back in favour. Macron is just following in the footsteps of the two previous warmongers.
Any independent source for this nonsense?
You decry the BBC as state propaganda, then quote liberally from Russia Today, which is nothing more than Russian state propaganda. Rather similar to your previous incarnations on here when you would decry the Daily Mail (Daily Heil?) then proceed to quote / paste large sections.
So any verifiable source for the Franch launching missiles either into Syria or against Russian aircraft?
IrishU
And what type of ‘independent source’ do you suggest we all wait for? Syrian Observatory for Human Rights maybe? Or the White Helmets perhaps? Bellingcat? Israel haven’t done themselves any favours, have they, by refusing to comment on the incident (presumably whilst they concoct their defence) to explain why the Syrian air defence system had to be deployed in the first place.
So that is a no then.
Referring to the question I raised further up the thread to this statement by Paul Greenwood:
“To down an IL-20 Electronic Warfare/ AWACS plane is provocative because that comes after it has identified the French ship Auvergne as source of incoming missiles…”
Had ELINT plane, or the shore batteries, identified the missiles incoming to Latakia as being from the Auvergne, not from the IAF F-16s? In other words, how do we know that the ELINT plane reported firing from the Auvergne, before it itself was hit? The answer is that it didn’t. The Khmeimim ground controllers detected both events, in swift succession:
“The launch was detected at around the same time that air traffic controllers at Khmeimim Airbase “lost contact” with a military Il-20 aircraft during an attack by Israeli F-16 fighters on Latakia.”
If you are Irish and you are representative of that etnic demographic, then no wonder the Irish are the butt of so many jokes.
Ray Raven : If you are Irish and you are representative of that etnic demographic, then no wonder the Irish are the butt of so many jokes.
Contrary to your racist insinuation, I bet IrishU can spell “ethnic” better than you.
@Rowan,
So the Syrians are reporting that the French launched missiles, correct? Have you a source for that? Also what sort of missiles were supposedly launched. anti-air or land attack?
@Ray Raven,
Irish born and bred, proud of it too. Care to expand on what you mean? I assume you are attempting to construct an insult…
“And what type of independent source do you suggest we all wait for?” I shall ask again what was intended to be a serious question. The Syrians were in the area, the Russians were in the area, the French were in the area, the Israelis were in the area. All were seemingly involved for one reason or another. So pray tell what truly ‘independent source’ can speak from an authoritative position as things currently stand? As it happens I can’t even name one whom I regard as non-partisan with regard to the ‘Western/Israeli’ allies; they are all controlled by the US.
Without your desired ‘independent source’ to tell us all we need to know immediately after the event, what do you suggest should happen? An embargo on anyone commenting on this or giving an opinion until the Israelis have come up with an explanation which we are all presumably supposed to accept without question? And what if they decide not to provide an explanation? Is everyone supposed to sit back and say after several weeks have passed “Oh well that’s it then. Carry on. As you were”. The fact is, the Israelis could have said something at the outset even if it was to say “we are investigating but convey our condolences for the deaths of the Russian servicemen”. The Russians and Israelis have claimed to be allies. Is that really how you respond – with silence – to a tragic event involving your ally? Is it any wonder people think the event was planned and the Israelis are guilty as hell.
I presume from your comments that you must have disagreed with the US and allies missile attack on Syria after the Douma “chemical attack” – well there was no independent source for the evidence of that at the time was there? And we all know the outcome of the OPCW report subsequently. Oh sorry, I’m forgetting – that was different because it was the ‘evil’ Russians and Syrians who were the ‘aggressors’.
Ray Raven: “If you are Irish…then no wonder the Irish are the butt of so many jokes.”
Yes, those jokes being part of a much wider anti-Irish movement instigated and spread far and wide by the Freemasons. The anti-Irish Know Nothings? Founded by Freemasons. The anti-Irish American Protective Association? Founded by Freemasons. The anti-Irish American Protestant Association? Founded by Freemasons. The anti-Irish, anti-Catholic Ku Klux Klan? Founded by Freemasons. The anti-Irish Catholic Orange Order, Black Preceptory, and Purple Order? All founded by Freemasons.
The Irish journalist and former professional footballer Eamon Dunphy, once recalled that on joining Millwall football club, an insider told him that as an Irish Catholic, his chances of progressing there were zero – as the club was run by Freemasons.
Btw, I’m sure ‘Irish U’ – the target of your racist hibernophobic jibe – would not agree with any of the above – he being a critic of “anti-western conspiracy theories”.
Hmmm, Millwall had an Irish captain a few seasons back I believe.
Orwell lives. The Torygraph’s Deputy Business Editor speaks. Many links within. It’s yards long and unusually the piece is not behind their paywall. The photo at the top is of a RT O/B van with the caption ‘Russia Today is viewed as a propaganda arm of the Kremlin’.
British broadcasters told to square up to Russian propaganda
18 September 2018
‘The Government will today urge the BBC and rival broadcasters to do more to challenge Russian propaganda in the wake of the Salisbury attack, alongside a rallying cry that a “strong media means a strong democracy and a strong nation”.
The Culture Secretary Jeremy Wright will use a speech to the television industry to call for action against the spread of disinformation, in return for more support navigating the shift to online streaming and the rise of Netflix.
Mr Wright is expected to ask broadcasters “to go further by doing more to build trust in the accuracy of news through high quality journalism and reporting”. The BBC and its Public Service Broadcaster rivals should seek to boost media literacy to help viewers distinguish trustworthy news sources, he will say at the Royal Television Society conference in London.
Mr Wright will accuse Russia of a seeking to cast doubt on its involvement in the poisonings carried out by its military intelligence agency in Salisbury with “a blatant disinformation campaign with misleading procedural questions and over 40 different official narratives – all false”.’
[..]
Mr Wright’s comments on the importance of quality journalism are nevertheless likely to be viewed as encouraging by the BBC, which has enjoyed a boost in taxpayer funding for its World Service international arm.
In his own speech today Lord Hall is expected to say: “Our society needs a strong upholder of truth. Are we as a country willing to give our media and the BBC the support they need.’
Goebbels would be proud.
Link –
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/09/18/british-broadcasters-told-square-russian-propaganda/
Qualified support is all any media should ever be given. Unqualified support is a green light for propaganda.
I will give support for journalism, not propaganda.
My support for any British media organisation depends on them reporting news truthfully, dispassionately and without undue concern for views in Israel and Washington DC.
As soon as they start ridiculing journalism by calling for Nobel Prizes for the White Helmets, they are like terrorists on a human rights march.
The best Propaganda is the Truth!
As I think some minor functionary in Germany said once but don’t quote me.
Russian Il-20 downed by Syrian S-200 defense system amid Israel’s F-16 air strikes – Russian MoD
Published time: 18 Sep, 2018 07:43
Edited time: 18 Sep, 2018 07:46
The Russian military say the Israeli raid on Syria triggered a chain of events, which led to the shooting down of a Russian Il-20 plane by a Syrian S-200 surface-to-air missile. Moscow reserves the right to respond accordingly
More specifically, the Russian military say the Israeli pilots used the Russian plane as cover and set it up to be targeted by Syrian air defences.
If that is true it is an act of war against Russia. The Russian military: “We consider these provocative actions by Israel as hostile. Fifteen Russian military service members have died because of the irresponsible actions of the Israeli military.”
There is of course a huge difference between irresponsibile and hostile.
The I__aeli military has not commented, which suggests guilt. They could for instance issue a one-sentence denial saying that at no time did they seek to influence the Syrian military to perceive the Russian jet as an enemy plane. Their silence is a further provocation.
Exactly. And there is also the fact that Israel have an agreement with Russia that if they (the Israelis) were intending to attack a Syrian target they would notify the Russians, via a permanent established hotline, precisely so the Russians could take any necessary action to avoid threats to human life. Apparently the Israelis gave one minute’s notice of their intention to fire the missiles at the targets in Latakia AND the surveillance plane would have been visible to them at the time and presumably also visible on radar.
What I don’t understand is why the Israelis are allowed (even by the Russians) to attack Syrian infrastructure in the first place. Is anyone able to enlighten me?
The Russians don’t necessarily want Iran to become too powerful.
@Borncynical,
The Israelis do what they like, they are not bound by international laws of any kind, they are supported every step of the way by the US (and UK).
They are a rogue state.
And you are just a rogue.
They do it because they can ,and have been doing it for the past 50 years, see “The iron wall” by the great Avi Shlaim.
@Alex, @Andy… @Geoffrey
Thanks for all your respective replies to my question. I think you’re all right. I just listened to Nadira Tudor on RT also giving an explanation and she said that basically, tying in with all your thoughts, Israel gets away with it (she used more diplomatic phraseology!) because any serious attempt for Syria or Russia to respond to them militarily could have far reaching consequences in the region and the wider sphere so the Syrians and Russians tolerate it for the sake of maintaining an equilibrium. But Russia sees itself simply as a mediator and therefore not a valid target for Israeli aggression. This latest incident has now pushed the Russians’ patience to the limit.
@Borncynical,
I was very surprised when Turkey shot down a Russian jet and Russia did not bother with even a token response. The truth which our MSM cannot be bothered to broadcast, is that Russia, Syria and Iran are the only countries doing anything to stop the creation of a caliphate in the Middle East.
This whole bloody mess started after the invasion of Iraq and the disbanding of the (largely Sunni) Iraqi army.
We then had the so called “Arab Spring” which saw the US inspired overthrow of Ghaddafi in Libya, subsequently leading to civil war in that country, and then the US master plan of getting rid of Assad, because he was an ally of Iran.
General Wesley Clark was right about this, but I hope to God that end result is not achieved.
Andy…
I agree entirely with your overview and evaluation.
I think the Brunswick nuclear power station might have been flooded by Storm Florence. Brunswick is an old plant, similar to the Fukushima units, I think. The site was designed to take 22 feet of flooding; the current flood level is over 25 feet. The two reactors have been shut down since a couple of days ago, but if flooding stops the cooling pumps they are still producing enough heat to melt down.
Another nearby nuclear power station that might be threatened is Surry. I haven’t checked up on that one.
https://www.ucsusa.org/press/2018/hurricane-florence-track-hit-east-coast-nuclear-plants-0#.W5l0XZNKhQI
The operators, Duke Energy, say there’s no flooding on the site, but they seem to have blurred out the photograph they sent to Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-storm-florence-duke-energy-nuclearpow/duke-energys-brunswick-nuclear-plant-stranded-by-flooding-from-florence-idUSKCN1LX25N
And yes. The two reactor units are both over forty years old and of the same design as the Fukushima units.
News appears to be delayed. The “Emergency Class: UNUSUAL EVENT” was initially reported on September 15th, but seems to have reached Reuters and Fox only 14 hours ago. Various event “Serial Numbers” are missing; I don’t know if that’s normal, or if the missing numbers signify redacted reports.
https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/event-status/event/en.html#en53609
How’s Hinckley Point coming along? Let’s pray that there is never another surge in the Bristol Channel. Crazy.
Future recurrence
While the risk of similar events in the foreseeable future is considered to be low, it is estimated that the potential cost caused by comparable flooding to residential, commercial, industrial, and agricultural property could range from £7 to £13 billion at 2007 insured values.[18] There has also been concern that the nuclear power stations at Hinkley Point and Oldbury could be endangered.[19]
On the 400th anniversary, 30 January 2007, BBC Somerset looked at the possible causes and asked whether it could happen again in the county.[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Channel_floods,_1607
These ancient reactors near the coast need to be shut down and de-fueled. Sea level is rising and storm intensity is increasing with global warming. Duke Energy and the NRC have been redacting flood resilience information in the reports for the Brunswick plant. See page 6 onwards of this report:
https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1707/ML17072A364.pdf
and sections 20 and 21 starting on page 34 of this report:
https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1727/ML17271A248.pdf
Re Clark at 09.37
Yes, this is the central problem with free enterprise, it assumes rational people making informed decisions, the market sorts the rest out. How can you make an informed decision about the risk of living in a flood plain if crucial information about the risks to your future dwelling place depends on information that has been redacted? Even worse if the neighbouring building is a nuclear reactor.
Yes, I agree it’s appalling. Bad Science and <Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre. Read and shudder. We don’t know what the medicinal drugs do; decades of systematic distortion.
Featured in yesterday’s news. Tsunamis significantly more frequent than previously thought.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45541721
Two previously unknown tsunamis uncovered in Shetland from 1,500 and 5,000 years ago. And they were BIG, much bigger than the Bristol Channel event from records.
The nuclear fuel in one power reactor is comparable to the entire nuclear fuel that would be used in an all-out nuclear war – power stations are much bigger than bombs. We have to decommission these ancient coastal reactors as a matter of urgency.
Steady as you go there!
One could equally correctly assert that there is more “nuclear fuel” in a cheese roll, although power stations are indeed bigger than bombs.
Something must be done.
[Wish I’d thought of that one first, i’m just jealous of your insight here.]
Only if you know where to buy
red mercuryAntimatter Pickle.Probably true, if we only consider the initial U235 load. But the U238 starts getting converted into plutonium and other actinides, and you get loads of radioactive fission products, activated materials etc. Probably I should have said radioactive material, or compared potential fallout.
As underground volcanoes get to big and collapse – they cause tsunamis
In the Pacific there are ancient tales from the Australian Aborigines to Japan of such events. In Europe too from Atlantis to the Shetland record you quote.
Whenever the next Hawaiian or Canary Islands underwater collapses there is going to be an extinction event – we could all miss it of course by doing it to ourselves first as things are moving to an ‘accidental’ world war.
Russian military plane ‘shot down in friendly-fire incident’ near Syria
US officials believe the reconnaissance plane was accidentally shot down in a “friendly-fire” incident.
https://news.sky.com/story/russian-military-plane-shot-down-in-friendly-fire-incident-near-syria-11501133
Friendly fire indeed. Whatever the who, why, when, it is a very serious development. 15 Russian military have been killed.
‘A Russian military plane with 14 servicemen on board has disappeared near Syria’s Mediterranean coast.
The country’s defence ministry said the IL-20 jet disappeared from radar 22 miles (35km) off the coast late on Monday as it was returning to Hmeimim airbase near the Syrian city of Lattakia.
It disappeared as Israeli jets and a French ship were attacking targets in the same area, according to Russia’s military, which has so far not confirmed whether it was shot down or crashed.’
As you would no doubt say if the deaths had been American or British, perhaps 15 Russian lives would have been saved if Putin wasn’t throwing his weight around the Middle East.
I do not want to hear of ANY death.
And get off my back. It’s itching.
Take the day off, if your back is itchy.
Rx Long bath in Israeli Dead Sea Salts.
https://www.israel-catalog.com/dead-sea-cosmetics/dead-sea-salt
The salts from the Dead Sea are poisonous. Best of luck with that. If it’s not poisonous, it’s not real.
Yes, three does look like a gang.
For someone who doesn’t want to hear of any death you certainly go out of your way to post about it, selectively, of course.
I suggest E45 cream for the itching, although I must confess I haven’t checked if the inventor / owner / shareholder has any links with Zionists.
If you post here, comment should be expected. Part and parcel of the internet and blogging. Do feel free to actually engage rather than post and run, makes for a better experience all round.
leave sharp ears alone
🙂
You do not contribute. You shadow me and bite but your teeth are weak and will probably fall out.
PS I have no need of creams thanks.
You do need creams. Lots of them:
an intelligence cream, to help you produce some substance from time to time rather than just cutting and pasting and telling us who’s on QT this evening;
a patience & courtesy cream to help you stay on topic and to stop asking Craig to produce new threads just because you’re bored and/or incapable of contributing yourself;
an obsession dissolving cream – purpose obvious.
Do I sense a gang round here?
Of course the problem with the drivel Neocon parrots like you spout, is that they are easily refuted – by those on your own side. Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton have both admitted that the Saudis sponsor Al Qaeda and Isis – and yet these two were part of an administration that bestowed billions worth of arms to a state they say is responsible for terrorist groups they blame for bringing carnage to western streets. Neocons like you always revert to the unutterably feeble “brainwashed by RT” canard. In fact the boot is on the other foot. RT actually regurgitates many of the fraudulent western corporate media’s war on terror narratives – and certainly does nothing to seriously question them.
To which the answer is that “Putin” isn’t “throwing his weight around in the Middle East” as you so provocatively put it. Russian military forces are assisting lawfully at the Syrian government’s request, which would never have been necessary had NATO and the CIA and Israel not encouraged, assisted, armed and funded Turkey and certain Gulf monarchies to support violent gangs, ostensibly to overthrow the Syrian government, but many with wider terrorist agendas.
I’m sure you knew that, IrishU; why else would you write so aggressively?
@Clark
Thanks for putting this response in writing. I had thought about it but in the end decided that it would be wasting time to respond to someone who clearly wants to waste everyone’s time!
evidently bombing a power station and ground installations – far from israhell on the basis that they are entitled to attack iranians wherever. france has a brutal history of foreign engagements and this won’t play well at home. on rt journalist referred to shooting down as an ‘accident’.
@ Sharp Ears September 18, 2018 at 09:12
‘Russian Il-20 downed by Syrian missile after Israeli F-16s used it as cover during attack – MoD’:
https://www.rt.com/news/438686-syria-russia-s200-il20/?
‘…“The Israeli pilots used the Russian plane as cover and set it up to be targeted by the Syrian air defense forces. As a consequence, the Il-20, which has radar cross-section much larger than the F-16, was shot down by an S-200 system missile,” the statement said…..’
“By way of deception, thou shalt do war”.
The I__aeli ambassador in Moscow has been summoned to the Russian Foreign Ministry. Let’s hope that if he doesn’t deny that his regime deliberately influenced Syrian defences to mistake the Russian plane for an enemy, and agree to cooperate fully with a Russian military investigation, that he’s given a steel-toed snow boot up his coccyx and introduced to a departure gate at Sheremetevo airport, along with all of his staff, within a matter of hours.
I note the longing, N_, but it ain’t going to happen. That is because President Putin, for all his faults, is a fairly rational man, so unlike the gaggle of Israel-haters.
@ Sharp Ears September 18, 2018 at 09:12
‘RUSSIA TO ISRAEL: YOU ARE WHOLLY TO BLAME FOR THE DOWNING OF THE PLANE’:
https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Syrian-air-defense-mistakenly-shoots-down-Russian-plane-567479
‘…”As a result, the IL-20, whose effective reflective surface is an order of magnitude larger than that of the F-16, was shot down by a C-200 missile,” the statement noted, indicating that the anti-aircraft missile mistook the IL-20 for a target because it was a larger object than an F-16.
Moscow said Israel would have been aware of the Russian plane’s presence as it slowed to land at an altitude of 5 km. “They deliberately went through with this provocation.” ….’.
RT cite the Russian defence ministry as saying that the I__aeli pilots used the Russian plane as cover (прикрываясь российским самолётом), thereby bringing it under fire from Syrian defences (подставить can mean “place under” or “expose to”, but the use of the Russian plane as cover is certainly described as as a deliberate act).
The Znazis are going to take it as a massive affront to their macho image if they have to
* explain in public the actions of their military forces
* accept in public that they don’t have a right to do whatever they want in the interests of their “race”
* apologise to Russia
* pay reparations to Russia
The Znazi aim comes across clearly in the following sentence in the Jerusalem Post: “Even as Turkey and Russia thought they had forestalled an Idlib battle, the air strikes on Latakia show that one wrong move could lead to a mistake.“
‘…”As a result, the IL-20, whose effective reflective surface is an order of magnitude larger than that of the F-16, was shot down by a C-200 missile,” the statement noted, indicating that the anti-aircraft missile mistook the IL-20 for a target because it was a larger object than an F-16. ‘
That doesn’t make any sense. If it was showing up as a target larger than an F-16 it clearly wasn’t an F-16 (it would’ve been moving much slower too) so why did the Syrians open fire?
Defensive missiles would be launched when the incoming F 16’s were detected. I don’t know how it all works but during the Falkland’s war the Atlantic Conveyor was selected by the two Exocet missiles because it was the biggest target.
Makes perfect sense if you know how the missile system works.
Syrians painted F-16’s and launched the missile. F-16’s hide in the IL’s shadow. Missile kills the IL cos it’s a bigger target.
S-200 missiles aren’t new fangled smart things. They’re old, dumber than bricks and kill the closest biggest thing they “see”. It’s one of the main reasons why oldish AA systems are so dangerous. They don’t give a shit about anything except signal strength. If you’re curious btw system like the BUK are even more dangerous cos they can go hunting for targets all by their lonesome.
The larger aircraft would’ve shown up on the S-200s acquisition radar before they opened fire, it would also have been fitted with a transponder which would’ve told the missile battery it was a friendly aircraft.
During Operation Desert Storm in 1991 Coalition missiles were programmed to recognise Coalition aircraft and avoid them. Don’t the Russians have that tech?
Could the Syrian air defences have been hacked?
James Harding, Head of News at the BBC, left in January. He has set up an outfit called Tortoise.
James Harding’s Tortoise Media is taking shape. I hear he’s signed an ex-colleague, former
@BBCr4today and @BBCPanorama Editor @CeriThomas01 , as an Editor and Partner, joining in a couple of months from his current role as Director of Public Affairs at @UniofOxford
https://twitter.com/amolrajan/status/1016740174586368000
A Top Obama Fundraiser Will Be Chair Of The New Media Startup Launched By The Ex-Boss Of BBC News
Matthew Barzun, who served as US ambassador to the UK during Barack Obama’s second term, is joining James Harding at his new company, Tortoise.
April 19, 2018
https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/barzun-tortoise
On the move?
very interesting… thanks!
What is the relevance of this?
today’s irrelevance is tomorrow’s eureka
Having read this blog for quite some time, I can aussure you that statement is a fallacy.
Stop reading then! Simples!
Because Craig’s post is about the influence of BBC propaganda! Or are you on here just to irritate and aggravate?
That was addressed to ‘IrishU’ who is probably Dreoiin/Wren of yore.
@Sharp Ears,
No, you’re wrong (not for the first time). “IrishU” has nothing to do with me, and I have no idea who he/she is. I read here, but I don’t comment here these days. Pull in your horns, why don’t you.
Dreoilin!
Very nice to see you after all this time. I hope you are well and in good spirits.
Oh dear. The death watch beetles are coming out of the woodwork today. Must be the heat.
PS IrishU. James Harding was in overall control of the ‘news’ at the BBC. Don’t you understand? It is now Ms Unsworth. She set up the Cliff Richard spy op via helicopter which has resulted in a loss of over £1million to the licence fee payers. Are you a UK licence fee payer btw?
They were all there during the years of the Savile abuse. Shame on them.
Hi Dreoilin, best wishes to you 🙂
Hello Glenn, and KoWN,
Nice to see you both! I’m fine thanks. Hope you are both well also.
You should both check your memory banks ref 2014-6 on here when I was being mercilessly trolled by several Zionist supporters. Our Irish friend sided with one of them who shall be nameless. I have not forgotten.
Nor have I forgotten your unpleasant and untruthful ad hominem Glenn NL in a thread which Tatyana kept linking to on her user name.
Vipers in bosoms.
When ‘Dreoilin’ arrived on here we learnt that she was ostensibly a fighter for truth and justice, a Palestinian supporter and one of those who protested at Shannon Airport.
@ Dreoilin
I’ve heard a lot of good things about you, especially your ability to cut through fake moralizing and hypocrisy. I’ve also been told someone on this blog was theorizing that you’d stopped contributing because you’d died. Hence I second the good wishes expressed by some others on here. Stay well!
Dreoilin: Yes thanks, actually living in NL now. Good work-life balance here, and a pretty healthy lifestyle all round. Hope you stick around for a bit.
Hello Dreoilin, good to see you.
Charles,
Thank you for the kind words. No, I’m not dead, as far as I know, although doctors insist on giving me dire warnings. (My lifestyle, don’t you know.)
Glenn,
I did wonder if your handle meant that that was where you’re living now. My youngest son has been in Edinburgh for the last number of years, with his Dutch fiancée (and my two young granddaughters), but they’re moving back to NL at the end of this year. (Because of Brexit, mainly. But like you, my son likes the lifestyle in NL.)
Mods,
Sorry for the O/T diversion. I’ll shut up now.
We’re on comment page five of a three day old post, and you’re less off-topic than I’ve been.
Dreoilin, it was Brian Fujisan who feared the worst, at squonk.tk (where there are no comments under Charles’ username, as I expect you’ve noticed). I was similarly worried, since you hadn’t posted a word for a very long time. Keep up the bad lifestyle!
Hello Clark! Hope you’re keeping well.
(Gone)
Thanks Clark. And thanks to Brian also, for your joint concern about me and whether I was still alive and kicking.
“Keep up the bad lifestyle”
I will indeed. 🙂
Should bring more balance to the UK media landscape by filling the glaring gap in the market for neoliberal, neocon propaganda.
Pakistan, a laughing stock:
“There were also many unanswered questions over eight buffaloes the government is parting with.
Earlier this month, an aide to new PM Imran Khan puzzled many when he tweeted that the buffalo had been used by former PM Nawaz Sharif for his “gastronomic requirements”.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45554753
Hope it’s time up for the ISI terrorist branch. Squeeze them Donald.
“Russia reserves the right to respond to Israeli actions”
That’s the headline on RT right now and I agree. It’s worth watching, they have some Zionist on shouting his head off.
I guess the prospect of fighting someone that can hit back doesn’t really appeal to Israel. Let’s be clear and fair, though, the Israelis aren’t total cowards; when it comes to shooting unarmed children, nobody has shown more steel than Israel in recent years.
We must remember that Israel is acting illegally when it violates Syria’s sovereign territory for the purpose of bombing. In international law these are two distinct crimes but combined they amount to the highest order of crime; ‘war of aggression’. But nobody even refers to international law any more, do they? I wonder why…
15 innocent Russian service personal have been killed because of Israel. I sincerely hope that Russia does respond. If the world wants to come to its senses, let it do so after Russia’s response.
Time to face down the bullies of the world and let the chips fall where they may. I guarantee that if push comes to shove, the US and Israel will bottle it. I think we are about to find out.
Nothing done by Israel or the USA can be illegal because international law does not apply to them. It’s called Exceptionalism.
The Americans and British are always talking about the “rules-based international order”.
What are those rules?
1. We can do anything we like to anyone we like, with no comeback.
2. Other people and nations have no rights, and should shut up.
That’s about it.
The US only calls itself the exceptional nation because the Nazis beat them to master race; they talk of full spectrum dominance because the Nazis were first with world domination, and they talk of a global war on terror because the Nazis own Totalerkrieg.
How many Ukrainian and Georgian military personnel have been killed because of Russia?
Oh look, Friday 21 September is triple witching day on the derivatives markets.
Is this about money, or witchcraft, or are they the same thing?
That would be an insult to witchcraft 🙂
Triple witching day is when a lot of options and futures expire. Prices can be very volatile. They changed the rules to try to reduce the risk of market manipulation, but everyone knows it’s a weak point – or a big opportunity, depending on your angle.
Then there’s the equinox, 2.54am British Summer Time, on Sunday. Sun into Libra – cardinal air.
*Ponders what ritual to do*
Kol Nidre
🙂
@Rowan – 🙂 Kol Nidre is one of the most hypocritical things I’ve ever heard of.
Damned tribal deities.
Hatuey
You forget. International law doesn’t apply to I***el.
I’d say also that everything it does is about seeking a reaction.
A report has come out about immigration to the UK. It has not significantly lowered wages and immigrants contribute more than is taken in benefits..
‘The MAC report says there has a been small impact on wages and employment in the UK, arguing it has had “neither the large negative effects claimed by some, nor the benefits claimed by others”.
But it also argues that because “the biggest gainers from migration are often the migrants themselves”, British ministers should see preferential access to the UK labour market as “something of value to offer in the negotiations” with the EU over the UK’s exit. Any future policy determined by the UK should favour higher-skilled workers over lower-skilled ones, the MAC advises, and says there should be no sector specific migration schemes except possibly for one to supply seasonal labour in agriculture.
Jonathan Portes, senior fellow at the thinktank The UK in a Changing Europe, whose research fed into the report, said: “Contrary to fears that immigration might reduce the incentive for businesses to boost productivity, my paper suggests the opposite: immigration has a substantial and positive impact on productivity. Areas that see inflows of immigrants see productivity rise.
“What does that mean for policy? The MAC are too polite to say so, but this report shows beyond doubt that the government’s economically illiterate net migration target should finally be put out of its misery. After Brexit, we will need immigration – for growth, productivity, and not least to help the public finances – more than ever.” ‘
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/brexit-eu-citizens-special-access-migration-advisory-committee
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migration-advisory-committee-mac-report-eea-migration
This House of Lords report on immigration was published in 2008. The conclusion was unusually equivocal, even for HoL; the benefits and disbenefits (aargh!) of immigration were equivalent, and the net impact was therefore neutral.
More recent reports have been of variable reliability, but have generally concluded a generous net economic benefit to UK. Other factors are more difficult to quantify, and discussions about these almost inevitably descend into political argument.
If you are a British guy working on a building site and your wages and job security have gone through the floor because of the availability of Eastern European workers who work 14 hour days and live in caravans, you won’t care about “net economic benefits”, any more than you’d go for an argument that “the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer, so let’s call it a draw”.
What we need is trade unions that are a lot stronger, that can recruit in poorly organised workplaces and among immigrants. I doubt anyone says that on Question Time.
Your comment is noted with interest. I take it from your QT non sequitur you viewed the good Baron’s youtube™ link earlier in this thread?
Perhaps you do not enjoy such satire.
Perhaps construction was a poor choice of polemic, as it is relatively well-paid, whether you’re from Cluj or Cambridge. Perhaps best to stick with the Tayberries.
Thanks be to Mods!
@James – “I take it from your QT non sequitur you viewed the good Baron’s youtube™ link earlier in this thread?”
No, I didn’t click. I did just now, and I’m not in the mood for watching a 90 minute long film.
“Perhaps construction was a poor choice of polemic, as it is relatively well-paid, whether you’re from Cluj or Cambridge. Perhaps best to stick with the Tayberries.”
I think the building trade is a useful point of reference here. Many labourers in it get paid a lot less than the average wage of £21K per year. Many British people really have been put out of work by competition from immigrant labour. If the left faces the problem it might be able to do something about it. Oh for the IWW.
I referred of course to a link “earlier in this thread” to a Harry & Paul spoof of QT in a comment by a certain John Kerr (hence the good baron).
I say “of course” as it appears on page 1 (earlier in this thread). Abraham Lincoln quotes do rather spring to mind here. Naughty old gremlins must have messed up my link and instead sent you to my own (James’s) link to the 90-minute Glasgow address of 2017. Confused? I Perl script automate these embedded links, so maybe something went wrong.
I tried to send reply this via my mobile, but more gremlins are at work there and it did not appear. I think the extensive redaction is causing additional confusion of “who’s zoomin who”. I send this via a more robust connection.
Since then, I notice the good Baron has been on Snoozenight. Perhaps you will now spend time to watch his 2017 speech. It is kind of relevant, and he even shows he has a sense of humour, something of which I was not previously aware .
Absolutely correct N_, but until folks are directly affected by the situation they will be blind to the truth. I started out in science and moved to accountancy, and both my wife and myself have been “made redundant” and then replaced by Eastern Europeans at a fraction of the cost. It is now common in the South East to see scientists with first class or even masters degrees being paid as little as £15K per year, when five years ago, the starting salary for a new graduate would be £21K.
Still what does it matter if you throw people on the rubbish heap when they have ten years to go until retirement, just so long as you save money for a company and have all those people in their early twenties working for you?
East Europeans do not, as a general rule, possess the relevant basic professional qualifications, such as ACCA, ATT, CIMA, let alone the higher quals, to practice accountancy in UK. Unless your career move would be more accurately described as scientist to book-keeper, I don’t actually believe you.
Your assertion about dwindling starting salaries for science graduates in the SE seems equally suspect, and I imagine that apples and pears may somewhere be involved. The figures you cite, rather like the East European migrants mysteriously qualified in UK accountancy law, are in my experience inauthentic, to be polite.
I think when you start using language like “rubbish heap” the true mischief becomes clearer. There are far too many glib, self-evidently false or at best tendentious assertions on here, which appear to largely go unchallenged. This not an example of “playing the man and not the ball”, but rather of pointing out the ball is not FIFA-compliant- if that’s not to arcane a metaphor?
@James,
As well as the science degree (biology) I have an AAT qualification and have worked in a couple of firms of chartered accountants in London, so it wasn’t “book-keeper” as you suggest, it was producing full sets of accounts for large companies and specialising in VAT.
You will, with your oh so obvious superior knowledge of the accounting profession, be well aware that senior staff – usually partners – sign off accounts, so there is not any need for staff at a lower level to be fully qualified.
There are also areas of accounting other than accounting firms, who require accountants – not book-keepers – such as local and central government, solicitors, insurance, patents and trademarks etc. who will need part qualified or even non qualified staff to deal with day to day work – cash flow, budgeting, payroll, tax, VAT, systems maintenance etc.
But of course, with your superior knowledge, I am sure that you are well aware of this?
“Superior knowledge” is your embroidery; I know a lot of of “accountants”. They mostly now work for investment banks, large multinationals, and indeed London law firms. They are all rather grand by now, and would no doubt be mildly amused, if not offended to be called mere accountants.
So it’s a problem of nomenclature; your “accountant” is my “book keeper”, and my “accountant” is a tax compliance specialist at Deutsche, a partner at Freshfields, a Director at Moodys etc. They are the apples and your “part qualified or even non qualified staff to deal with day to day work” are the pears (or vice versa) to which I referred in my comment.
I am sorry that you and your wife were made redundant. It seems to me that your beef lies not with your East Europeans, but more with the marketability/value of your AAT qualification,and your weasel (ex-)employer. I just don’t agree with the jib of your argument.
A bit like that smug, disingenuous batty boy, Jacob Rees-Mogg, I know I come across all high and mighty. I’m not, it’s just the way I write. I could write differently, but I don’t want to.
I feel your anger, but I think it is somewhat misdirected. Let’s leave it there.
Go well and good luck
@James,
My anger is not at all directed against the people who have replaced us, be they from Eastern Europe or elsewhere, it is directed at the “enablers”, the politicians who have signed up to the freedom of movement, which has seen a huge influx of immigration to the UK, allowing many “weasel” employers access to a massive pool of cheap resources – young, cheap labour.
It has happened and there is no way to hide that.
My wife is a research scientist with a masters degree, who is now working back in the industry, earning £10K less than she was six years ago, and considerably less than the average wage.
If someone from Poland/Bulgaria/Romania etc. works for £16K in the UK, then that is around four times their average wage in their home country, and if they are young as many of my wife’s colleagues are, then they are able to amass a small fortune in the UK relatively quickly. The only way that they are helping the UK economy, is by keeping resource costs down for the “weasel” employers, they are not putting their meagre wages back into the UK economy.
I’m gratified to note your “anger is not at all directed against… people… from Eastern Europe or elsewhere” and certainly share your view that the obloquy be directed at politicians.
More specifically at the “enabler”-in-chief, Tony Blair. He could (and some, including yourself, would say should) have applied the brakes to the 2004 A8. I refer not to the motor car, but to movement of persons of the new EU members. The other large member states sensibly exercised their right to suspend migration from these novichoks. My belief is that the Labour regime made a miscalculation of the likely scale of movement, and were prepared to take the “risk” in any case. Of course, the Messianic TB probably saw all this as an opportunity, the final denouement in a quiet crusade HMG had been long supporting to get the East European countries into the Union. In some ways it was a good development (though more by luck than judgement), but not from where you’re sitting. &c &c &c
Enough! I loathe and despise politics, and Matilda in particular makes me cringe.
Good luck to you and yours!
Anent the discussions about Brit-exit earlier today, this video may be of interest to the less vacuous commenters. If you saw it back in 2017, have another look.
The erudition, insight and prescience of the former PUS is a breath of fresh air in here.
the lib dems are finally up into double figures (11%), so you never know.
The only time I never voted for Labour was when I voted for Clegg, and then he did the Uturn on University fees and got into bed with the Tories.
As far as I am concerned the LibDems are filth.
I fail to make the connection with the well-known music hall ditty, but I doubt many will be taken aback by your political predilections!
Clegg was total filth: a filthy, chain-smoking, duplicitous, turncoat, Tory-stooge toerag, surely?
I don’t think this thread is going to prove durable, somehow.
The ‘Scottish’ Conservatives have tweeted that “Four years ago today we said No, and we meant it”.
Well, four years ago they also said ‘Vote No to give Scotland more influence in the UK’. Four years ago the Tories and pals said ‘Vote No to safeguard the powers of Holyrood’. Four years ago they said ‘Vote No for maximum home rule within the UK’.
Some countries might at certain times in their history be fortunate enough to temporarily have stateswomen and statesmen running their government. Most of the time though countries have to make do with that lesser breed. Politicians. Scotland in these years has been saddled with unionists who are below even the dubious category of politician. Elected scoundrels.
Four years ago you said No. Don’t boast about sticking to your principles when you have amply and publicly demonstrated that you have few.
There’s nothing in the least puzzling about the Scottish Tory position. They’re doing exactly what you’d expect them to do. The same can be said of all the other parties but not the SNP.
Three years ago, Scotland said yes to the SNP manifesto with its commitment to another referendum. Parliament has since passed the legislation.
The silence is deafening.
Clearly Sturgeon is hoping Brexit is cancelled so that she can deactivate.
Sad news: former steelworker Albert Dryden, who defended his home against a piece of shit “officer” from the local council who was enjoying a rare erection, hard hart on head, hands arrogantly on hips, after ordering bulldozers to start demolishing it, has died a few months after serving 26 years in prison.
Albert had previously warned the regime’s thugs of what the consequences would be of destroying his home, but the thugs ignored the warning, clearly believing they served a greater god.
The only thug in this sorry tale was Dryden.
Yup, good riddance.
Oh dear “Kempe”, but I see what you did there … chum.
I use “thug” to mean someone who pushes people around who don’t deserve it, using violence or the threat of violence.
It’s a terrible shame. If Dryden had been growing up around Durham twenty years later, he would have been given fish oil capsules that might have helped his antisocial behaviour.
@Andyoldlabour September 18, 2018 at 11:40
” believe me, both the Greens and SNP had every bit as much airtime as UKIP.”
I don’t believe you unless you can provide some actual evidence.
All I can remember at the time was wall to wall UKIP bollocks. I think Hatuey has a point and the Little Englanders were given a free ride.
.
Absoolutely right Mochyn, since yhe inception of thr Green Party, it has argued and fought with the BBC for fairet coverage.
They tried every argument in the book tp deny them airspace and election coverage.
With no help or support from any of the othet so called democracy loving main parties, espevially not Labour, despite its Red/Green fringe.
And o did not see much support from Lsbour for an inclusion of fair proportional options in the so called ‘PR referendum’ , instead they choose/ grudgingly agreed for the least proportipnal single option, rather than having STV and AMS included.
Shame on those who still dont want to let people have a fair voting system for all electipns when you come out with slogans like ‘ for the many, not just the few’.
@nevermind,
The “PR referendum” was a complete travesty, and as a result of that we can never call the UK a democratic country. As far as I am concerned, until we have 100% proportional representation we cannot call ourselves a democracy.
It what form will Russia take in retaliation to the nefarious Israeli strike in Syria, using a Russian plane as cover to avoid detection.
I doubt it will retaliate with a armed strike on the country of Israel. In my opinion a more subtle response will be forthcoming, possibly the expulsion of any Israeli ambassadors and their retinue from Russian soil.
However, more and more Israel is launching unprovoked attacks in the region, without being held to account on any of them. If it were Syria or Iran launching airstrikes on coastal cities, just imagine the outcry from Nato and the west.
Israel is by far the aggressor state and it must be held to account before its unfettered military strikes cause all out war. If Nato takes no action against Israel, then its already damaged credibility will suffer a further blow.
How and by whom ROS ? Who would take on the US and Israel ?
It has been doing this for 50 odd years… see “The Iron Wall” by Avi Shlaim.
I’m not advocating alll out war, strict sanctions against Israel, officially or unofficially break their economy and you restrict their actions.
Something’s got to be done, how far will Netanyahu go? Before he or his successor and so on, causes an all out war in the region, that could potentially spread to Europe and further afield.
Israel has in effect, a carte blanche in the region to strike whoever it see fit to strike, under the guise of protecting itself. It does so knowing that the Great Satan has its back covered.
@ Republicofscotland September 18, 2018 at 12:57
‘..Israel has in effect, a carte blanche in the region to strike whoever it see fit to strike, under the guise of protecting itself…’
It, and it’s Fifth (Filth?) Column here do the same thing, with the ‘AS’ BS.
Putin should pick Netanyahu up by the scruff of his neck and tell him “You don’t bomb Syria any more. Got that?”
If I were an Israeli military officer I would be very careful about touching any door handles in the near future!
That will be the next assignment for B&P.
Russia will respond by enhancing Syria’s air defences. Remember, Syria is within its legal rights to shoot down any and all planes that fly over its airspace without permission.
@ Hatuey September 18, 2018 at 13:02
Pity the Lebanese government doesn’t make some kind of deal with Russia to protect their airspace….
I find myself remembering the campaign that led to the expression “Pyrrhic victory”. Some time after Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world, one or two of the Greek colonies in the heel of Italy had a spat with the growing power of Rome. Arrogant in the pride of Greekness, they insulted Roman envoys and flung dirt at them. The Romans said little, but grimly prepared for war.
Panicking, the Greek colonists called for help to King Pyrrhus of Epirus, a descendant of Alexander the Great who had had great success with a very similar army and tactics. (Phalanx, sarissas, cavalry, hoplites, peltasts). Keen to expand, Pyrrhus crossed the sea and prepared to teach the cheeky “barbarians” a lesson. After a few battles, this ruler of the “exceptional” and “indispensable” Macedonians had to admit that, “Another such victory will cost me the war”. The impertinent Romans, fighting for their independence and their city’s honour, simply refused to be beaten and always charged back to the attack like swarms of angry hornets.
“Ne ego si iterum eodem modo uicero, sine ullo milite Epirum reuertar”.
(“Another such victory and I come back to Epirus alone”).
It would be ‘anti-Semitic’ to retaliate against Israel whatever the severity of their actions. “Hostility against Jews” is classified as anti-semitic in the IHRA. So there it is in black and white. Israel can do what it likes with impunity.
“Israel can do what it likes with impunity”.
As befits the only true humans in a world of subhuman animals.
Tom
Indeed.
A Peterboroughonian on BBC Radio 4 WAO just now.
“They’re talkin’ the forrin language so you know their forrinners, innit!?”
Same clip was on yesterday so that’s for the second time in two days!
And guess whose voice was the first to boom across the airwaves right at the start of the broadcast?
Seriously, you could not make this shit up, could you?
.
The state broadcaster has now removed all mention of yesterday’s Idlib peace deal between Turkey and Russia. Just in case an anti-semites out there had any wild notions about linking the deal with Israel’s attack on Latakia.
There is of course no connection.
This morning, this piece: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45556290
Contained a reference to the Idlib deal – as a second last paragraph. Now all mention of the deal has been removed.
outrageous reporting –
Israhell good – ‘the planes were back before the event’
Syria bad – ‘It is not possible to verify any of these claims’.
Smelt a shift of tone in the bbc this morning pointing up the benefits of europe… terror of no ‘deal’?
By e-mail today from Christine Hyde who is doing her best to save the NHS from privatisation under the Tories.
‘Dear Friends,
Thank you for signing the petition STOP the plans to dismantle our NHS. Please share the link again.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-the-plans-to-dismantle-our-nhs
The new contract they are planning is the wrecking ball. It could go to your local NHS Trust, or it could even go to Centene Corporation, the US ‘care integrator,’ which had a 2 year contract in Nottingham, or similar multinational company with experience as a ‘provider’.
At the NHS England Integrated Care Provider (ICP) contract Consultation event last week in Leeds, I asked a question.
” Will this contract enable doctors and nurses in training, to work in hospitals and other settings they need, in order to gain experience?”
After a roundabout response about Health Education England being responsible for training, it turns out that the trainees will be, as they are now, paid for the bulk of their salary, by the employing NHS Trust, or whatever organisation has taken them on and that since they are understandably slower and less experienced therefore not as efficient, there will be little or no incentive in a cash strapped system, to employ them. This was pointed out during the meeting by a retired ophthalmologist.
NHS England HAD NO ANSWER!
The shortage of all types of doctors, nurses, consultants and other specialists is becoming worse because of this sort of issue already playing out, (in addtition to the unnecessary workload, bullying culture, unfilled rota places and resultant stress.) Please sign now.
Fortunately the 999 Call for the NHS group who challenged the new contract in the court, has got permission to appeal. Watch out for updates on that front, coming soon.
Thanks for all you do.
Christine
@ Sharp Ears September 18, 2018 at 13:49
‘Americans who confronted ‘surprise’ medical bills share their stories’:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/americans-who-confronted-surprise-medical-bills-share-their-stories
This is what May, Bliar & Co. would like to happen in the UK.
And Russia says a French frigate fired missiles – at who and why?
France is the new England, step up the poodle.
Paul Barbera: “Russia says a French frigate fired missiles – at who and why?” No, Russia says Syria fired it, and the Syrians say the French frigate fired it.
@ Rowan September 18, 2018 at 16:37
The Russians say Syria fired the missile that downed the plane, but they also said a French frigate fired missiles, but they didn’t say what they fired at.
The American Empire is collapsing. All China and Russia have to do is wait, and avoid any major confrontation. They get stronger; America gets weaker. Unless the neocon psychos actually instigate a full-blown shooting match, it’s just a question of waiting for the big beast to hit the ground.
There will be no major response from Russia over this latest blatant aggression. But I do suspect that Syria will now be given those S300s, and more besides. And the Idlib peace deal will go ahead.
All things considered, a very stupid move by the Israeli regime.
@ mike September 18, 2018 at 14:18
‘The American Empire is collapsing. ….’
Wishful thinking, I’m afraid. The NWO One World Gulag is marching ahead inexorably, from Latin America to Africa to the Middle East.
Sure, there will be a ‘financial collapse’, but it won’t hurt the PTB, just Joe Public. And the military will still keep expanding like the cancer it is.
@Blunderbuss – Further to Friday being “triple witching day” on the derivatives markets, and Sunday having the equinox, who, one might wonder, has whipped up today’s “Storm Ali” in Britain?
In the aftermath of the Great Storm of 1987 (which aficionados of occult history know was associated with the wolf Fenris), Wall Street crashed.
Oh and today is Yom Kippur.
What’s the substance of your criticism?
Putin has said (he is in Hungary) that the Russian response to the loss of the plane will first of all be to increase the security of Russian service personnel and Russian facilities in Syria. “And these will be steps that everyone will notice,” he said.
Putin has a very irritated General Staff and Shoigu as a civilian is their mouthpiece and candidate to replace Putin. He is neither dictator nor omnipotent….he like the Tsar depends on the Boyars to keep him in place. So long as he placates the factions he stays afloat but it is not clear he will stay the course if Israel continues to provoke the USA into global conflict
I’ll have to take a look at Shoigu. But he’s not a civilian. If he takes over he will be the first person from from the military to become the top honcho in Russia. Putin’s act will be hard to follow.
Alexander Lebed once looked likely, until he took a short trip in a helicopter.
Netanyahu has been bombing Syria with chosenite impunity whilst joining Putin in WW2 victory commemorations at the same time? Very puzzling, its this kind of ambivalence that may trigger off …… The Iranians maybe carrying out another Iraq chalabi type of caper, and setting up the kazar for a chance to deliver the TNWs that disappeared upon the fall of the USSR. Their stealth drones have already made test runs over the Tel Aviv water plant.
I understand why you say that, Paul B, but it’s too fatalistic for me. All empires collapse. I’m a great believe in hubris too!
@ mike September 18, 2018 at 14:40
Sure, it will collapse – at Armageddon. But so will everything, and everyone, else.
‘I got a home on the other side’. Not in the sense that so-called ‘Fundamentalist Christians’ who want to hurry on the ‘End Times’, who don’t care a s*it for the Palestinians or J*ws, in direct opposition to ‘Love thy neighbour as thy self’.
They are the ‘Christian’s’ answer to Wahhabi-ism, and just as bloodthirsty.
the fear is dc psychos are more than capable of taking the samson option – preferring to reduce the earth to a nuclear desert than accept a peaceful end to hegemony…… mccain’s blackened skull retrieved from the ash centuries later bearing a tight grin.