Goin’ Doon the Watter 542

UPDATE: Craig is on way back to London to be with Wikileaks following the arrest of Julian Assange under the Extradition Act. He does still intend to speak at Rothesay.

Scotland Yard statement:

Julian Assange, 47, (03.07.71) has today, Thursday 11 April, been further arrested on behalf of the United States authorities, at 10:53hrs after his arrival at a central London police station. This is an extradition warrant under Section 73 of the Extradition Act. He will appear in custody at Westminster Magistrates’ Court as soon as possible.

I am speaking in Rothesay at St Paul’s Church Hall, Deanhood Place, at 2pm on Saturday. I am heading back up to Scotland today. I will be there in any circumstances, and will dash back down afterwards should events with Julian and Wikileaks require. I have incidentally had a definitive reply from the Embassy of Ecuador that I am not allowed to visit Julian even though he has asked me to; definitive evidence that Assange is now being treated by Moreno as a prisoner.

I have to confess I have never been to the Isle of Bute, despite a very bad impression of Andy Stewart singing “Goin’ Doon the Watter fur the Fair” being one of the large variety of embarrassing things I am liable to do when drunk. I look forward to it enormously and am grateful to Rothesay Historical Society for hosting me. I always fret that nobody will turn up to hear me and am very honoured when people do.

As ever, I do not know exactly what I will say until I stand up. But I have in mind touching on Scotland’s right to self-determination and the routes to Independence through international recognition. I will argue that a referendum is one route but not the only one, and while I accept it is the most desirable way forward, I shall advance other avenues that might be quite legally pursued if a referendum is blocked, stressing that a nation’s Independence is exclusively a matter of international law, not domestic law.

I shall argue that the Scottish government needs to get on with it and it is a massive mistake to allow the UK government to recover from its chaos and process the Brexit debacle. Scotland should act before the UK regroups, not after.

I shall also argue that just as the Scots have the right of self-determination, so do the English. It is not just bad tactics for the SNP to prioritise stopping Brexit over Independence, it is wrong. The English plainly voted to leave the EU and it is not Scotland’s role to thwart the democratic will of the English people. Scotland should become Independent, and remain an EU member, as its people voted. England and Wales should leave the EU as their people voted, and those who truly believe in Scottish Independence should realise it is not our right to prevent the English from doing what they self-determine. Let’s get Independence and do our own thing, leaving them to do theirs.

There needs to be a referendum on Irish unification.

I shall also ramble around Wikileaks, the Mueller report, the Skripal saga, the Integrity Initiative, and answer questions in any other area. Time now to start back up the A1!

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542 thoughts on “Goin’ Doon the Watter

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  • lysias

    Apparently, the indictment, handed down in Dec. 2018, was for conduct allegedly committed in 2010. I thought the statute of limitations for most federal felonies under the U.S. Code was five years.

    • Jack

      How so? He is already openly charged with crimes that could give him plenty of time in jail or worse.

  • What's going on?

    Is there anything that would indicate that the Assange affair isn’t just another part of operation ‘culture war’? I find it highly suspicious that whenever I question the media reports that Assange has holed up in the Embassy since June 2012 there are always responses that say that cannot be possible, but don’t provide any proof or anything making up a substantial argument for that.

    Is there anybody here who is prepared to be openminded about the whole Brexit-Trump-Pentalega-EP shitshow?

  • Willie

    Like Gestapo or the SS, the British authorities act in exactly the same way.

    Assange crime was to be a journalist exposing the truth. Think about that folks as you read these blogs because if they can come for Assange they can, indeed will come for you.

    Auswich, Belsen, Gitmo Bay. It’s here. Make no mistake. It’s here.

    • Jack


      “First they came for..” Seems apt this day where NO western leader protested against this arrest.
      The liberals have showed their true colors today. This is how crazy they are.

    • Mary Pau!

      As I understand it, he has been arrested for breaking bail terms in the UK. The US has sent an extradition request for him on the grounds of hacking into US classified information and being in receipt of that information (via Chelsea Manning,). There is nothing in any of this which states he is or was a journalist circulating state classified information.

      • pretzelattack

        as glenn greenwald points out, there is litle evidence that that occurred, and it would effectively criminalize journalism.

  • Republicofscotland

    According to the link, its included in the Rule of Speciality. Other than that Jack I don’t know.

  • Francis Urquhart Barr

    Here’s a trick which the ScotsNats have somehow missed.

    if they were to suggest that everyone in UK was allowed to vote in #IndyRef2, Scotland’s independence would be pretty much guaranteed.

    Because almost everyone in England is tried of the whingeing victimhood emanating from north of Hadrian’s Wall, and would happily vote to part company.

    • JOML

      FUB, if you’re so pissed off, why don’t you get off your arse and campaign for England to be independent? Why leave it for others to deliver your end goal?

      • Francis Urquhart Barr

        Are you projecting? I’m not pissed off at all. Just making an observation.

        Oh and BTW, I think the same applies to the land of my birth, Northern Ireland.

        If the people in ROI are so keen to annexe NI, they should persuade HMG to let all the people of UK vote, because that would guarantee the result they desire.

    • Jo1

      Not true. I’ve lost count of the number of posts I’ve read from English people praising the conduct of SNP MPs throughout this entire Brexit debacle while despairing at the antics of many English MPs.

      They’ve also expressed gratitude that SNP MPs had not just the interests of Scots in mind during debates but the whole of the UK.

      I’d guess most of them would call you out for the idiot you are.

      • Francis Urquhart Barr

        I’m not sure that being able to count to the number of fingers and thumbs you have would be considered relevant.

    • BrianFujisan


      In such a case.. The MSM would be SCREAMING the truth to the people in England – that they need Scotland’s resources, Taxes.

      • Francis Urquhart Barr

        Scotland resources, aka “Scotland’s Oil” is a dwindling resource both physically and morally.

        Norway – much richer in said resources than Scotland – is now beginning the process of moving away from Oil as an economic bulwark in favour of “green” energy sources.

        So, if Scotland wants to retain it’s “right on” status, it will have to follow suit.

        Which begs the question: what else does Scotland have to offer?

        • Clark

          Scotland is a major producer of timber and has huge potential wind power resources, just for starters. And there are much better things you can do with oil than burning it.

          • Clydebuilt

            In addition to Wind , there’s huge potential in Tidal energy. England has installed undersea conductors to take energy from Scotland’s current and future renewables.
            England’s elites know the value of Scotland. Both as a source of energy and a place to store their nuclear arsenal.
            To red top readers we’re just whinging Jocks.

    • Bayard

      “if they were to suggest that everyone in UK was allowed to vote in #IndyRef2, Scotland’s independence would be pretty much guaranteed”

      Probably true, but not for the reason given. It would be a re-run of the Brexit referendum. The Establishment and the government would align themselves with the Unionist cause and everyone who is anti the Establishment and the government would vote for Scottish independence.

      • Mary Pau!

        I tend to agree. If the English majority vote to support Scottish independence, which means IndyRef2 turns out in favour of independence for Scotland by a large margin, why is this a problem for Scots,?

  • Goose

    Corbyn has come out against Assange’s extradition(Twitter).

    All those who doubted his willingness to … What about the SNP?

    • JOML

      Goose, with an international event / scandal taking place, highlighting how much control Washington has on the UK, your focus is on the SNP… do you think it matters either way what the SNP do or don’t in the grander scheme of things?
      Corbyn and the SNP are not really in competition anyway. Corbyn’s real enemies are much closer to his home.

      • BrianFujisan

        Seconded JOML..

        there is Ample evidence of Westminster’s Disdain for the SNP in recent years – No Decades – No Centuries.

      • Goose

        I didn’t really mean it as a challenge to the SNP. Although Assange’s case kind of is, in a way.

        Sturgeon has expressed opinions on far more trivial matters eg. Black holes, recently.

        It’s strange how everyone supposedly on the liberal/left piles into the Trump administration on, well everything, Yet on things like this
        they march in lockstep, as they do over any military action.

        Things like this illustrate who the principled politicians are.

        • JOML

          Goose, were you happy with Corbyn’s efforts over the last few years in speaking out about the position Assange was put in?
          His tweet, if he personally in control of his account, is hardly earth shattering…
          “The extradition of Julian Assange to the US for exposing evidence of atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan should be opposed by the British government.”

          However, I suppose his hands are tied, given it was a Labour British government who were fully supportive of this se “atrocities in Iraq”.

          • Goose

            Well no, I think he’s been silent about far too much. Of course, there’s the fact he’s bound by secrecy around matters pertaining to national security, so his freedom to speak out is probably limited.

            Plus, anyone joining the Privy Council is required to take an oath or a solemn affirmation to “keep secret all matters…treated of in Council”

            The UK has far too much seemingly unnecessary secrecy, but that’s a whole other topic.

        • Jo1

          Sturgeon backed the UK government after the Salisbury stuff against Russia remember. It didn’t go down well. Blackford did too.

          For what it’s worth, the SNP spokesperson in the house today , when the Home Secretary spoke, appeared concerned about the Assange business. I do hope Nicola doesn’t change course on that.

      • Goose

        I wouldn’t read too much into anti-Assange comments and upticks on social media.

        Assange, quite understandably has loads of enemies. Those who believe in, many whom are employed within the huge security/military industrial complex(millions) will defend it aggressively.

        • Ken Kenn

          The MSM who wrote their stories on the back of the Wikileaks exposes had better watch their backs.

          Precedent is being set here and just using the defence of -‘ It wasn’t us that said it it was Wikileaks – we just said what they said ‘ may not wash in the future.

          Also anyone with a blog – writing on a blog quoting Wikileaks revelations may be prone to charges themselves.

          A warning to all alleged journalists that if you don’t defend Assange now and he is imprisoned in the US that :

          If you tolerate this then you ( and possibly your children ) will be next.

          Some Guardian journalists will not be sleeping well tonight.

          Donald of course should know how Julian feels at this moment.

          Unless he’s thick?

          I forgot that he is.

          Just saying that may get me extradited in the future – who knows.

          I’ll still say it to a Court though because that’s the truth.

          And nothing but the truth.

          So help me Captain America.

          • Goose

            The secret intelligence agencies involving themselves with selected journalists and think tank people is a deeply worrying trend.

            It’s the slippery slope to fascism, whether those involved realise it or not. No doubt it’s happening on the basis of trying to control the narrative. It started with embedded war correspondents and is now being used to control domestic news agendas.

            Journos have been persuaded to give up their independence, by the absurd assertion Russia won Trump the election and is now engaged in a massive disinformation campaign to influence western societies. A Claim that is easily debunked by the fact that no supporting evidence is ever presented.

    • BrianFujisan

      Seem It’s Too late now Sharp Ears.. Seeing Julian Dragged from that place.. with all those big dicks..was a Shock.. Not because it was not to be expected.. A shock nonetheless.. Sad Day.

      P.s.. If Craig Makes it to Rothesay i shall get some video..though it won’t be continuous video.. I shall do what I can…It may not be something Indy Live will cover.

      • Laurens

        His face has been in front of me all night at work. Shocking indeed.

        When my anger finally subsides, I will be thinking about those who today have kicked him when down.

        I always thought some editors and journalists were scum of the earth (and cowards at it) – know I know. We may not be able to help Julian at this point.

        But we maybe we can destroy the careers of those who cheer for this misery.while pretending to be journalists.

        • Jo1

          The glee at the BBC was just ghastly. They were practically wetting themselves as they repeatedthe footage of JA being dragged from the building over and over.

          The worst comments came from our Foreign Secretary who firstly condemned JA for “running from the truth for many years” and then said it would be up to a court to judge him.

  • What's going on?

    [ MOD: Choose a simple handle, not a question or a slogan for future posts. ]

    Assange is another divisive ‘Culture War’ topic. Going by the comments on social media, you either think he is a criminal or you support him. The split works more or less on left-right political lines. The left are supporters, the right against (in general of course).

    There has been a lot of negative press around Assange and a lot of Labour voters I know don’t like him. Could Assange be being used to turn usual Labour voters against Corbyn, so that they vote for the CUK in the forthcoming Euro elections?

    Just a thought, an idea, a suggestion.

  • BrianFujisan

    Glen Greenwald..Sorry if I missed this one.. On a very Fast Thread.

    Eventually, Greenwald focused his ire on NBC News.

    ” I’m not surprised to see NBC journalists uniting behind Trump DOJ to justify the criminalization of WikiLeaks – NBC is fully aligned with the CIA/NSA long obsessed with destroying WL – but this tweet is false: the indictment also charges Assange with *encouraging* his source:

    US journalists have long hated WikiLeaks because they have published stories of far greater importance & impact than most of those journalists in the lifetime will ever publish, all without being part of their little club. But to cheer the Trump DOJ prosecution is just grotesque.

    At one point, MSNBC justice and security analyst Matthew Miller decided to engage Greenwald — leading to this debate: –

    The Greenwald twitter exchange –


  • mark golding

    The arrest Thursday of Julian Assange eviscerates all pretense of the rule of law and the rights of a free press.

    The illegalities, embraced by the Ecuadorian, British and U.S. governments, in the seizure of Assange are ominous.

    They presage a world where the internal workings, abuses, corruption, lies and crimes, especially war crimes, carried out by corporate states and the global ruling elite will be masked from the public.

    They presage a world where those with the courage and integrity to expose the misuse of power will be hunted down, tortured, subjected to sham trials and given lifetime prison terms in solitary confinement.

    They presage an Orwellian dystopia where news is replaced with propaganda, trivia and entertainment. The arrest of Assange, I fear, marks the official beginning of the corporate totalitarianism that will define our lives. Courtesy: Chris Hedges

    • Two Candles

      I’m far more worried about the possibility that elections are being rigged.

      • Michael McNulty

        I thought the Scottish Independence vote was rigged to return No; that the EU referendum was rigged to Remain but they didn’t rig it enough, the wish to Leave was so strong; some say they suspect the last GE was rigged against Corbyn because his support became massive; and I thought Jeremy’s support was too strong to rig the next GE but his about-face on Brexit may provide wriggle-room.

        • Two Candles

          I have wondered about the EU referendum being rigged for Leave to win, although it did look like the campaigns on BOTH sides wanted to lose. Then again it would make sense for both sides to clustershambles it up so that it makes a second ref. more valid. Next watch the EP elections. I’m expecting centre-right and centre-left parties in the EU member states to make blunders of epic proportions so that their vote share will collapse and the ‘new’ eurosceptics and centrists can gain more seats and claim that it is some new type of politics. In reality it doesn’t matter who you vote for, the government always wins.

    • giyane


      Every ” saved sect ” has to have its own Robespierre or Gestapo to tell the people why they should crush the sect in the interests of all.
      Flower power children of post war liberals have Donald Trump’s white supremacist fascism and Lady May ‘s racist brexit populism.

      The crackdown on our shared values epitomized by trump/ May ‘s violation of the law yesterday was 100% inevitable. But I don’t understand the negativity of the comments here. These two monsters of conservativism , because of their racist populism believe they can trample at will over the sensibilities of every upright American and British citizen.
      Big mistake.

      Corbyn is right to mock May on her legacy because she’s smelling the peerage and revelling in brexit power. Trump and May’s legacy will not only be hopelessness and austerity, but also racist populism so far unheardvof in Anglo Saxon politics and psychological oppression of free speech not seen since the defeat of Hitler.

      Today they have destroyed their legacies forever. Their own arrogance and their very own bad karma

  • Two Candles

    It will be interesting to see how this pans out, but I suspect this has a lot to do with the Euro elections and is the first part of the campaign to get the Labour vote down.

    • Michael McNulty

      I have similar suspicions. They can’t repeat the New Labour = New Left sham because it was clearly the new right and most ordinary people got bitten by it. So I’m wondering if this next plan is, instead of the new right pretending to be new left, they just stick with the right but this time split off Labour voters by making the far right appealing? It’s easy to do, they’re already doing it, and that’s to ignore a democratic vote to leave the EU and hope the disaffected left turn far right in enough numbers. What else is there? Who else promises to uphold the result?

      I wonder if the role of ex-stockbroker Farage is to ensure that when the Tory scum are kicked out they’re not replaced by a leftist government but by another one on the right…and if needs be, one on the hard right.

  • Hieroglyph

    Well, Assange probably won’t take much pleasure in being right. For literally years the media called him a coward, branding his belief that he would be extradited ‘an excuse for avoiding rape charges’. So he gets dragged out of the embassy, and arrested for extradition within hours. He’ll be left to squirm for a year, on breaching bail charges, softened up, and then extradited after a farce of a procedure.

    Assange: correct again. Also, no rape charges after all.

    I am somewhat unclear on Trump’s position here. I’ve been supportive of Trump more generally, but I don’t want to be that guy who defends bad decisions through misguided loyalty. I am presuming this is at the behest of the new AG, because he has authority here. However, it’s complicated. It may be a rather secret military tribunal has the authority. It’s also definitely the case that the extradition papers were served 7 years ago, and have been outstanding ever since. So, the ultimate authority, in assenting to arrest, lies with Prime Minister May. In this scenario, the extradition papers are automatic, she merely gives the nod, after Moreno cancels his status. And, who can cancel this extradition order? I do not know. Perhaps nobody.

    I utterly loathe PM May. A bad person, who plots patiently, but is otherwise utterly incompetent. But whatever the truth, Trump does have the power of pardon. This is one thing he can do, via executive order, any time he wishes. Hope he does.

    • Stonky

      I am somewhat unclear on Trump’s position here. I’ve been supportive of Trump more generally, but I don’t want to be that guy who defends bad decisions through misguided loyalty…

      The one thing to be said in Trump’s favour is that he stopped that piece of dog excrement masquerading as a human being from becoming president. I still savour the thought of every moment she spent screeching with rage, bawling her eyes out, and smashing stuff all through election night.

      But it’s a waste of time ‘supporting’ or ‘opposing’ Trump. What his presidency is doing is making it absolutely clear, to anybody but the stupidest mammal on the planet, that the POTUS doesn’t govern in the USA any more than I do. He will have no say whatsoever in what’s going to happen to Assange (although I expect he’ll be told before I am).

  • Babuška

    As we approach Easter- yes, the eternal ritual of suffering, crucifixion and New Life, we are treated to the same sickening spectacle as that commemorated each year over the millennia: a grieving traumatized mother pleading for her son as he is dragged off to the head honcho of empire, while the crowds scream ‘crucify him’.

    Shame on the politicians and pathetic bureacrsts of Five Eyes who are just doin’ their jobs- glibly passing the buck.

    Julian Assange is being made a scapegoat for the criminals in the ruling class.

    • Goose

      One of their proudest boasts is that we’ve got an independent judiciary.

      However, analysis has shown it’s overwhelmingly: white,male; Oxbridge, upper middle class and Conservative, both in terms of political allegiance and in terms of their rulings. They frequent the same high society gatherings as govt figures.

      Why would the control freaks need to interfere with a judiciary like that?

      • Stonky

        However, analysis has shown it’s overwhelmingly: white,male; Oxbridge, upper middle class and Conservative, both in terms of political allegiance and in terms of their rulings…

        There are some pretty bonkers outliers though Goose. Like this guy, who decided that a Turkish criminal with a string of convictions as long as your arm shouldn’t be deported… because his membership of a brutal North London criminal gang indicated that he had ‘integrated’ into British society:

        If only Assange could get up in front of Judge Evan Ruth he’d be a stick-on for asylum.

        • Goose

          Those studies on this are fairly extensive.

          For a long time judges were appointed by the deeply arcane ‘tap on the shoulder’ selection process, basically emerging from the barristers’ old-boy network. Hence why Labour brought in the more transparent and fair, independent Judicial Appointments Commission. But these changes take time to feed through, you might get the odd eccentric, but the judiciary is definitely far more socially conservative than the society they serve. I think that’s why the Tories are so hostile to the CJEU and ECtHR, they want ‘our judges’ deciding everything because of predictability. Those more diverse, often more pro civil liberties judges the EU can’t be relied upon to see the world as they do.

    • Ort

      Like so many official pronouncements, apart from the inappropriateness and bias it’s a clear case of psychological projection.

  • JOML

    Can’t help feeling that Julian Assange should contact Prince Andrew. He successfully dealt with US law, when he was obviously wrongly accused… or was he guilty? We’ll need to rely on the MSM for the truth…

  • Clark

    The Labour Party takes a stand for Assange:

    Jeremy Corbyn, Leader of the Opposition:

    – “The extradition of Julian Assange to the US for exposing evidence of atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan should be opposed by the British government.”


    Diane Abbott, MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington Shadow Home Secretary:

    – “In this country we have protections for whistle-blowers, those who take personal risk to disclose wrongdoing in the public intrest. Julian Assange is not being pursued to protect US national security. He is being pursued because he has exposed wrongdoing by US administrations

    – This is what Julian Assange and Wikileaks are ‘guilty’ of, exposing the murderous outcome of the US military assault on Iraq. States don’t have the right to kill willy-nilly. Whistle blowers do us all a service”


    Richard Burgon, Labour MP for East Leeds, and Shadow Justice Secretary:

    – “This shocking video from Iraq, revealed by WikiLeaks, showing the killing of civilians and Reuters journalists provides some context to today’s moves towards extraditing Julian Assange to the USA.”

    – Chelsea Manning was sentenced to decades in a US maximum-security jail after exposing US war crimes via Assange’s WikiLeaks. Now Julian Assange faces extradition to the USA for allegedly aiding Manning. Deep concerns Assange will face similar treatment to Manning in the USA.”


    Each with links; to pictures, articles, and the Wikileaks video Collateral Murder.

    • BrianFujisan

      And now they have that picture..Julian being Wrenched from Torture.. The Empire needs imagery like that – This is What Will Happen..if you Disobey – ON YOUR KNEES SHEEPLE.. But more than the image.. they Need the bbC.. Sky.. MSM.. But they sure have that Angle figured out Eh.. Bastards.

  • giyane

    It’s true that the MSM work for the establishment , and attack those who try to expose government crimes. But the fact is that western governments would be unable to do any of those war crimes , all of them in civilian locations , without the nest of spies in London who sell their religion and their countrymen and women to these colonial oppressors for financial reward.

    There are currently 4000 Daesh soldiers , captured by the YPG and the US under the direct supervision of Brett McGurk although he has officially resigned. McGurk’s job is to control the informers and negotiate the release of these active soldiers who fought against the people of Syria, Libya and Iraq so that they can be recycled further East against other predominantly Muslim countries and Myanmar China and Thailand

    Trump’outright lies are nauseating . Firstly that he wanted to drain the neocon swamp, when he actually is regrouping the swamp for further illegal and aggressive colonial wars.
    Secondly that he is not interested in assange.
    He and his neocon criminal nutters desperately do not want to be photographed in action desecrating world peace in the far East again in the same way assange published their middle eastern fascist war crimes.

    I find his and mrs may”s lying breathtakingly disgusting whereas the lies of the agent betrayers and msm sycophants are just pathetic scavenging for worldly gain
    Whereas I fin

    • Michael McNulty

      What really gets me about Trump, Bolton, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al, is how these hard-core war hawks were at one time hard-core draft dodgers. They didn’t want war when it meant being part of it. Blood-stained cowards all of them. Is there a sin worse than that?

      • Trowbridge H. Ford

        There are better reasons for hating all these bastards without implying that they are draft dodgers since there is no draft now, and only 10 % of America’s males ever serve now.

    • Trowbridge H. Ford

      While the mods have not deleted this post, hoping everyone will hate what I am saying which is not what Assange has reported against those engaged in the war on terror but what his dsclosures, especially in the Afghan File , have done to Allied operations and operatives,and unfounded claims about what HMG government cannot do is absurd.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Trowbridge H. Ford April 12, 2019 at 14:51
        Allied ‘operatives’ (invaders/occupiers) have no business being in Afghanistan. Afghan Freedom Fighters, on the other hand, have every right to oppose them in any way they can, including killing them.

  • Mary Pau!

    Can anyone clarify a few legal definitions for me here:

    1. What is the distinction if any, in US law, between espionage and treason.

    2. Can a US citizen be charged with espionage against his own country if he hands his findings over to an accredited US journalist and not to a Foreign government?

    3. What legal protections do accredited US journalists have against prosecution, if they publish classified US state information obtained from a third party?

    4. How does Julian Assange describe himself in terms of occupation? Journalist? Publisher? SOMETHING ELSE?

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