Boris Johnson’s facetious, point-scoring reply to the formal request from the Scottish government for agreement to a second Independence referendum is an act of extreme arrogance. An off-the-cuff campaign remark from a single politician has no weight in weighing the will of a nation, and I presume Johnson is not arguing that every political statement Nicola Sturgeon or Alex Salmond has ever made has the force of law.
The “once in a generation” remark has no more force than “die in a ditch”. It is not contained in any official document, and appears in neither the Edinburgh Agreement nor the Smith Commission report. For Johnson to base his refusal of a vital democratic step on such a flimsy pretext is extremely arrogant. It is born of colossal self-confidence. He is perfectly confident the highly centralised Westminster system will allow him simply to ride roughshod over Scotland.
Johnson is of course right. You may be surprised to hear that I agree with the analysis of McHarg and McCorkindale published today that a legal challenge arguing the Scottish Government’s right to hold a referendum is a waste of time, not least because if such legal challenge looked like succeeding the Tories would simply pass Westminster legislation outlawing the referendum explicitly. There is no doubt whatsoever that such legislation would be upheld by the UK Supreme Court under the doctrine of the Sovereignty of (Westminster) Parliament.
I also have no doubt that a futile and time-wasting court action is going to be a key part of the Scottish Government’s approach in response to Johnson, of pretending to do something about Independence a few more years.
McHarg and McCorkindale are quite right on UK Constitutional Law, which is where their expertise lies. They know very little about public international law and still less about international politics.
The truth is that UK Constitutional Law is as irrelevant to Scottish Independence as Soviet Constitutional Law was to the question of Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian Independence. The UK is disintegrating and not the smirk of Johnson, the frippery of the UK Supreme Court nor the witterings of lawyers can hold it together.
Independence is not a matter of domestic law. It is a matter of international law alone. Independence is the existence of a state in relation to other states. It is gained not by any internal process- internal process is utterly irrelevant, and in 95% of cases does not involve a referendum – but by recognition of other states, formalised through the General Assembly of the United Nations.
I touched on these points in my brief statement at the AUOB press conference after the march on Saturday.
In its judgement on Kosovo, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) specifically confirmed that the agreement of the state being seceded from was not necessary for Independence. That is the position in law, whatever any UK court may say. Indeed it was the UK government itself that put this argument most clearly to the ICJ in the Kosovo case.
5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of
the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor
State’s law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration
of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of
the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be
predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in
which the secession is occurring.5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim
independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international
law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional
authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond
the scope of already conferred power.
That is a commendably concise and accurate description of the legal position. It is the legal opinion of the Government of the United Kingdom, as submitted to the International Court of Justice in the Kosovo case. The International Court of Justice endorsed this view, so it is both established law and the opinion of the British Government that a state has the right to declare Independence without the agreement or permission of the original state and its political or legal authorities.
I have continually explained on this site that the legality of a Declaration of Independence is in no sense determined by the law of the metropolitan state, but is purely a matter of recognition by other countries and thus acceptance into the United Nations. The UK Government set this out plainly in response to a question from a judge in the Kosovo case:
2. As the United Kingdom stated in oral argument, international law contains no
prohibition against declarations of independence as such. Whether a declaration of
independence leads to the creation of a new State by separation or secession depends
not on the fact of the declaration but on subsequent developments, notably recognition
by other States. As a general matter, an act not prohibited by international law needs
no authorization. This position holds with respect to States. It holds also with respect
to acts of individuals or groups, for international law prohibits conduct of non-State
entities only exceptionally and where expressly indicated.
So the key question is, could Scotland get recognition from other states for a Declaration of Independence? The attitude of the EU will be crucial and here Catalonia is obviously a key precedent. But it is one that has been totally misunderstood.
The vast majority of the politicians and functionaries of the EU institutions viewed the actions of the Francoist government of Spain in assaulting the people of Catalonia who were trying to vote, with extreme distaste. But they held their noses and supported Spain. Because over 20 years experience as a diplomat taught me that the EU functions as a club of member states, who will support each other in almost any circumstance. So Spain was supported.
But the UK is shortly going to stop being a member. It is Scotland, as a potential member with a long history of valued membership and a firm intention to join, which will have the natural support of the EU, the more so as there will be a strong desire to get Scotland’s fishing, energy and mineral resources back within the bloc. The disintegration of the UK will also be encouraged as a salutary lesson to any other states that consider leaving the EU. The political forces within the EU are very, very strongly behind recognition of Scottish Independence.
Once the EU decides to recognise Scotland (and crucially it is not a decision that needs unanimity in the EU vote, an extremely important and overlooked fact) the rest will be easy. The UK is detested in much of the developing world for its continued refusal to decolonise Diego Garcia, for the Iraq War, and for the whole history of colonialism.
So how should Scotland proceed? My advice would be to declare Independence at the earliest possible opportunity. We should recall all Scottish MPs from Westminster immediately. We should assemble all of Scotland’s MEP’s, MP’s and MSP’s in a National Assembly and declare Independence on the 700th Anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath, thus emphasising the historical continuity of the Scottish state. The views and laws of London now being irrelevant, we should organise, as an Independent state, our referendum to confirm Independence, to be held in September 2020.
The key criterion which governments have traditionally used to recognise another state is control of the state’s internal territory. (They do not have to use that criterion, each state can recognise on whatever basis it wishes, but that is the usual one cited). This is where the Catalonian Declaration of Independence failed, the Catalan Government never managed to enforce it on its own ground.
There is going to be no process of Independence agreed with the British government. We have to take Independence, not beg for it. At some stage, there is always the danger that the British government may try to react by sending in the British Army to enforce Westminster’s will. If we believe we are an independent nation, we have to be prepared to defend ourselves as an independent state should the worst happen. Calling a confirmatory referendum as the first act of the Independent state would make it difficult for Johnson to justify sending in the British Army to try to prevent it, but we cannot rule it out. Hopefully that will not involve anyone getting killed, but we must be plain that Westminster will never voluntarily allow us to leave and may physically attack us if we try.
I appreciate this may all sound very unpleasant and confrontational.
We have two alternatives now – we stand up for ourselves and our inalienable right of self-determination in international law as defined in the UN Charter, or we grovel before Johnson’s smirk and try various “legal” and “constitutional” avenues in terms of the UK’s utterly irrelevant domestic legislation. Which will get us nowhere, slowly.
The time has come for Scottish Independence. With a referendum denied by no fault of ours, we must seize the moment and take the Independence for which they will not let us vote.
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been
A picture says a thousand words. SNP Leader all smiles together with Alistair Campbell.
Based on the uninformed crap that a lot of posters post on this site about Scottish independence it really is difficult to take anything else they say on other subjects seriously.
Also Craig your comments section is hardly full of people from down south defending democracy in Scotland.
Says it all about their values – a bit like the Nandy and Phillips values from the Labour Party – your democracy in Scotland stopped in 2014 and we will tell you when it is starting up again – but only if you get back in your box and shut up. As Andrew Neil said to Nandy your position on this is the same as the Prime Minister. RedTories get one MP in Scotland and they are surprised. Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems all the same in Scotland – Britnats. Lying Britnats.
Cubby
Don’t complain about the traffic. You are traffic.
Giyane
Your post is a perfect example of the crap I mentioned.
Cubby
In Britain we boil up calves’ feet and use it for glue or neats foot oil. But my wife boils it up and eats it. The PM is a BritNat who wants the UK to stick together. Scotland wants to celebrate its diversity.
I can see nothing to interest myself in Scottish independence unless it sticks a spanner in Tory zionist colonialism.. I write what I think.
Or are you telling me I have to drink the animal bone glue that stinks the house out and my wife drinks.
I can relate to Welsh culture and I am part Welsh but Scottish culture doesn’t interest me that much. Sorry.
It does for sure stick a spanner in Tory zionist colonialism.
Redundant apostophe?
Magic Robot
Redundant apostrophe
Anyway she was eating lamb feet.
Pendant!
Yeah, Cubby if it’s not about attacking some ME country Giyane, Wikikettle and Laguerre lose interest fast.
If I don’t know anything about a subject, then I don’t spout off, unlike some others.
RoS
When the poles swap, Australia will be where the EU is, and Scotland sticking out into the Antarctic. I’m not fussy about the location. Yesterday the BBC was using their intrepid female reporter to blame Assad for the misery of Syrian children, whereas the problem was caused by David Cameron working on behalf of Israel and the jihadist proxies, working for the same.
When the poles change Syria will become Sri Lanka and Israel and its croney jihadists have already devastated that country last year by murdering practising Christians in church. Plus sha change…plus sh’est la shame fucking chose.
ROS
Yes it seems that they know a lot about the Middle East and the Palestinian problem and Zionism but are blind to the injustices in their own backyard. People who think they are savvy but their heads are full of Britnat media propaganda about Scotland.
They should maybe think more about the fact that so many of the world’s trouble spots today are ex British empire colonies denied of their democracy for centuries by Westminster. Just as Scotland is today and in the past.
Just in time for the UK’s answer to Catalonia:
It’s Show Trial Time!
TV cameras to be allowed in Crown Courts in England and Wales
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51110206
Los
There’s cameras every other fucking place …
Do we really need Boris’s facetious sneering grin beamed at us like a Roman triumph in the House of Commons?
We need cameras on the polling stations and an end to postal ballots.. That would soon wipe a few million off his fake majority.. The criminals are the Tories and there will not be any forgiveness or healing in this country until this election fraud is avenged.
I will never forget war criminal Blsir being chauffeured at high speed down the motorway after winning an election.
You little arrogant criminal man reaping your Faustian pact with Zionism. In the end even he realised how much the British people hated him for all the evil he had done.
There is no stopping the war criminal.
‘Tony Blair is to join the crown prince of Abu Dhabi and a Japanese billionaire in a colossal project to move the capital of Indonesia from the waterlogged city of Jakarta to the jungles of Borneo.
Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed will lead a board of advisers including Mr Blair and Masayoshi Son, the founder of the Softbank telecommunications company. The advisory team was announced after the United Arab Emirates and Indonesia agreed $23 billion in business during a visit to Abu Dhabi by President Widodo of Indonesia.’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tony-blair-to-help-indonesia-move-its-capital-from-waterlogged-jakarta-to-borneo-m773b276t
How many shekels in it for him?
Mary
The first of many cities that will have to relocate.
East London included. Politicians like Boris tend to build on the cheapest land in the flood plains.
That’s the land with the biggest mark up for them to siphon off. I wouldn’t have a politician on my committee to build anything. They are only there for the increase in land value.
Perhaps England must preserve the option to relocate London to some area safe from floods and effect of global warming, perhaps in Fife or Perthshire? Invariably, the bulk of plebeians would remain in the huge decaying city (is it what happened to Rio de Janeiro and Lagos?) and a new hygienic city with a much higher proportion of desirable population would be created.
“There’s cameras every other fucking place ”
I think per head of the population in the UK, there are more cameras than any other country in the world.
Of course the court cameras are just bread and circuses for the masses, keep them distracted, Judge Judy, and Judge Rinder, watch the shit and don’t think for yourselves.
The trap laid by the Faustian Anglo Arab Israeli oil dollar for protection pact: let all keep Zionism in their cross hairs to shield the Wahhabi out of the limelight, both domestically and internationally. Israel has little to offer but it makes an excellent bogeyman for any Tom, Dick or Ali.
The Arab oil & gas powers have enormous underground reserves plus the ca$h to keep on supporting the unlimited FED’s U$ dollar bill printingwithout any inflation penalty. In return for being vilified, Israel get US hardware and support – money for “free”. Jews are totally used to be discriminated in Europe and the ME, so nothing new for them. Meanwhile the Wahhabi get to spread their nefarious ideology far and wide: they even got the EU so dumb to open up fully for their young religious immigrants. Imagine, they themselves won’t allow any of these guys into KSA, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Iraq etc., specially not those “Palestinian” Arabs.
“Israel has little to offer but it makes an excellent bogeyman for any Tom, Dick or Ali.”
I would say it has nothing whatsoever to offer the colonised oppressed Palestinians.
Antonym
Bogeyman Zionism
I agree with you that zionism is much less of a problem than Islamism, ie political islam
I don’t understand how israel exercises such a hold on this country’s politicians that they vote for Zionist wars that only benefit israel. Some say Israel can blackmail most cities with dirty bombs, but somehow I doubt that. More likely Israel has the tabs on politicians’ private lives to blackmail them.
Israel is world leader in spy technology, but spying is forbidden in Islam . The legacy of the oppressive ottoman empire is that spying is the norm in Political Islam . The reason why spying is forbidden is that you will see things that you don’t like , which were not intended to be seen.
Political Islam did not intend any of us to see their antics in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain , Libya.
I did not intend anyone to be seen in my own bedroom. But political Islam spies on Muslims who dare to expose their political crimes..
Spying is in itself harmless and it enables shopkeepers and governments to detect criminal behaviour. Spying only became dangerous when it is used against political opponents, to stop journalism, criticism , and thought crime.
Political Islam is no different to all politics, I.e. only about power and greed, to the extent of madness and obsession. Muslims ought to follow the quran. If they spy, they are not Muslims imho.
More relevant for independence arguments, the hearings of the UK Supreme Court have been live-streamed on the internet for years.
The court route is a inevtible dead end, its akin to Assange appealing to the Supreme court in America that England should release him.
Yes, like I said yesterday.
But the UK Supreme Court is still a more likely venue for Scottish independence arguments than the English Crown Court.
Martinned
Scotland has its own legal system and courts that follow Scots law. If the UK Supreme Court overrules a Scottish court then it destroys a major article in the Treaty of Union.
They had that problem after the highest court in Scots law ruled Johnsons proroguing of Parliament unlawful. So they avoided that problem by overruling the high court of England and Wales.
When Blair introduced his UK Supreme Court he just sidestepped/ignored this issue.
The UK Supreme Court is also a Scottish court. They have Scottish/Scottish-trained Law Lords especially for that purpose. See, most recently, the court’s judgment in MacDonald and another v Carnbroe Estates Ltd, a case about the Scots law of gratuitous alienations on insolvency, where the Supreme Court overturned the Inner House in a judgment by Lord Hodge.
The Secret Barrister is against: https://thesecretbarrister.com/2020/01/16/televising-sentencing-remarks-is-a-gimmick-that-has-not-been-thought-through/
@But, but.. if they have nothing to hide, then they have nothing to fear.’ That’s the usual line the state takes.
Why so opposed now, Martinned?
Work in law, or something?
I only passed on the Secret Barrister’s opinion, I didn’t say what I thought.
But, since you asked: I think his/her argument sounds persuasive. Without the rest of the trial, there isn’t much point in filming/broadcasting the sentencing remarks, and you don’t want to broadcast the entire trial because it would violate the defendant’s privacy rights and might discourage witnesses.
Why you would think that I would take the “nothing to hide”-approach mystifies me. I have never done so on this blog or elsewhere.
The secret Barrister would be commenting on Criminal Law, which is different from Constitutional Law.
English Constitutional Law appears to be just about protecting the De Facto status quo.
Have any increases in Scottish council tax for 2020/21 been announced?
Aberdeen’s last year – https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/council-tax/view-council-tax-bands
Here my local county council has announced an increase of 3.99% ! Added to which will be an increase in the 11 borough councils’ take.
No budget in Westminster means no-one knows what block grant to Scotland and so in turn to councils, which by Law have to have their budgets set very soon, which may entail c/tax rates remain as last year in many councils.
A question I keep asking, but to which I usually receive childish replies, : How will the UK national debt be split in the event of Scottish independence ? and will whatever is agreed as fair to be transferred to the new Scottish state ? and if that is the case what do you think lenders will demand from the new entities ?
I am fairly neutral on Scottish Independence in principal, but this seems to me to be the one of the biggest, if not the biggest question that has to be answered, and as the Rest of the UK will be affected by whatever is negotiated they will also need to be consulted.
Geoffrey
A good question but just like in a marital divorce it should also include assets not just debts. I wonder why it is always framed in just Scotland taking a share of the massive debts run up by the UK. Approx £2 trillion and still rising.
It will be negotiated. There was no pre nupt in the Treaty of Union so it can be argued that as both partners like in a marriage entered as equals then it should be an equal split of assets and debts. There are of course other arguments – a split based on populations at time of the Union or population split now.
Cubby
It is nothing like a divorce. More like releasing a slave .
Any debts incurred by the English were entirely for their own benefit. Anyway even with slavery the slave owner is responsible for the upkeep or maintenance of their slave. Obviously the London government under this PM is fully committed to ongoing colonialism. Whereas if Nicola Sturgeon had been more gracious to Jeremy Corbyn , she could have got a PM who was not in favour of ongoing colonialism. Easy target , Corbyn, for the political bitches to cut their political teeth on.
Giyane
Labour the party of socialist Lords and Baronesses. There are now more Scottish Labour Lords than elected MPs and MSPs and most of the Labour MSPs got in on the party regional list – a bunch of time serving low flying jimmies hoping to get their bum on a seat in the House of Lords so that they don’t even have to sit upright but can have a sleep and still get paid and never removed by voters.
Democracy for Scotland in the UK is a joke.
The British Labour Party is a joke and Nandy shows the quality of their MPs is abysmal.
Cubby
The fact that labour MPs wouldn’t get behind one of the few of their team who had never been bought , Jeremy Corbyn, says it all.
I suppose by definition those who have Labour sympathies have suffered more sin their lives and might be more prone to being bought. Difficult to buy a man who can afford to splash wine on white sofas.
Who will Nandy practice her teenage rebellion petulance on now. And for that matter where does the spoilt Etonian go after the neocoms have trashed their full list of unwanted Muslim countries for Israel?
More in… not more sin.. .sorry.
Giyane
The British Labour Party in Scotland is the most treacherous Party.
Labour first promised Home rule for Scotland three centuries ago.
They have the nerve to bring this up now and again along with the federalism fairy to solve what they ignorantly call the “Scottish problem”.
The only thing surprising about Labour is that 18% actually voted for them in the GE last month. They got one MP Murray who does a good impression of a Tory in Scotland to get votes from Tories in a Tory area to stop the SNP.
British Labour have not got a clue about Scotland as to how to get back their “Scottish heartlands” as Long- Bailey called it. They are Britnats who think they are our imperial masters.
Yeah Cubby, I think that was the case in 2014, a percentage of movable assets for a percent of debts, after all Scottish taxpayers helped pay for them. However I recall the government of the day saying that they’d retain the debt, and presumably the assets as well, fair enough I say, but don’t forget to take your nukes with you.
ROS
They can also take all the radioactive waste, old munitions that they have dumped all over Scotland.
Cubby, do you imagine it will be negotiated post or pre independence ? The outcome of these negotiations will make a substantial difference to the citizens of an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK. It is probable that lenders will demand a higher interest rate from an independent Scotland (and before a clever clogs says it, the rest of the UK too).
1 or 2 % interest on 8-10% (Scotland’s population )of 2 trillion would be a substantial proportion Scotland’s income. I can see no reason why the rest of the UK would or should guarantee this debt either, or vice versa.
Of course it may well be that lenders see Scotland is an potential economic powerhouse and they may thus be prepared to lend at lower rates than the UK is currently charged, however, lenders may not take that view and demand higher interest payments, in which case Scotland would have great difficulty servicing the debt and providing public services.
As in a divorce, if the assets are split so must the liabilities.
Why should an Independent Scotland be held to pay for debts, when these were incurred over their heads, without having had any input, negotiations or say in it.
For example, why should anybody in Scotland pay for a Hinkley white elephant?
Scotland’s budget deficit is currently £12.6 billion. Every year the SNP add £12.6 billion to the national debt. That’s 40% of the UK total although Scotland only has 8% of the population.
Then there’s the RBS bailout.
Kempe
Try and think about what you are posting. It’s absolute nonsense.
There is no Scotland deficit just like there is no Wales deficit or N.Ireland deficit or England deficit. There is only a UK deficit and a great big UK national debt of £2Trillion.
A country can only have a deficit if it is in complete control of its revenue generating and expenditure i.e. Independent.
Who spends all the money and issues the debt bonds Westminster = UK.
How can the SNP add anything to the UK debt as they do not control Westminster, they cannot borrow and must balance their budget within small limits. So recently you had the situation in the Scottish parliament when Labour were complaining about the SNP not spending the annual surplus the Scotgov had kept for contingencies. Yes that’s right Kempe SURPLUS. Your attempt to allocate billions of deficit to the SNP is just absolute nonsense.
So you are sadly ignorant of the facts or even more sadly you are a Britnat 77th brigade.
PS cannot even be bothered to explain RBS to you.
The same could be said, with equal validity, of the people of England and of Wales.
Or did you think that they had any more say in the matter than the people of Scotland?
Obviously these debts should be scrupulously audited and those which are odious should be repudiated. As to the rest: negotiations would precede equitable arrangements.
But none of these matters concerns the SNP which simply wants to change the names and the flags on the buildings. Think of a gangplank between two ships, one sinking the other less obviously in trouble, and the long mammalian line scuttling from the first to the second.
Cubby Holyrood has control enough over spending to run up this debt. Even the SNP acknowledges its existence.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-scotland/scottish-budget-deficit-at-seven-year-low-but-far-exceeds-uk-average-idUKKCN1VB0SC
Kempe.
All countries borrow, England is up to its eyes in debt, due to mismanagement of taxpayers cash. The Scottish government can borrow a limited amount, currently the SNP government are spending hundreds of milliins of pounds mitigating nasty Westminster policies.
Money that will be saved after independence.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-public-finance-manual/borrowing-lending-and-investment/borrowing-lending-and-investment/
Sure, but the question was why should Scotland be held responsible for its debts. That Scotland is borrowing to provide free prescriptions and tuition might be seen as commendable but it’s borrowing nonetheless.
Kempe.
What a load of tosh, GERS figures which are guessitmates, wouldn’t apply to a independent Scotland the figures are only as part of the union.
A union that foists its percentage of debts on Scotland through its inept management of funds and its policies such as Trident.
Another great reason for dropping this union like a hot potato.
Re the GERS figures at FMQ’s today the FM announced that she’d be launching a white paper that shows GERS for what they really are.
“Sure, but the question was why should Scotland be held responsible for its debts. That Scotland is borrowing to provide free prescriptions and tuition might be seen as commendable but it’s borrowing nonetheless.”
Its borrowing to mitigate disasterous Westminster government policies to protect its people, if that’s not a governments remit then I don’t know what is.
We also pay a percentage of serviceable UK debt that wouldn’t be applicable in a independent Scotland, such as Trident or nuclear subs. Scotland is subsidising the UK’s debt repayments by billions of pounds every year, even though Scotland didn’t run up any of those debts.
You see why Westminster is desperately trying to hold onto Scotland.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-outstanding-balance/
Kempe
Did you even read my post. Either you are thick as shit or you are a propagandist.
The Scotgov or the SNP as you prefer to say could not never ever run up annual deficits of £12 billions or whatever nonsense propaganda figures the UK produces for the hard of thinking and the propagandists. The Scot gov as part of its gov responsibilities has to publush the total nonsense that is the GERS figures. They are created by the UK.
GERS was created by Ian Lang Scottish Secretary of State Tory MP in 1992 before devolution as a propaganda weapon against devolution and independence. Correpondence of his boasting about how it would sort out the Nats as a propaganda tool is out there.
SURPLUS – did you miss that word in my previous post – again SURPLUS. Do you even know what that means.
I cannot make up mind if some people are so stupid or they are at it – yes 77th.
BRITNAT PYRAMID OF LIES
There is the Britnat pyramid of lies. At the very top are the people who think up and prepare and produce the lies. A relative small number of people. The second layer is the people who know they are lies but are happy to support and propagate the lies. A larger number of people. The third and final layer are those people who just don’t have a clue and believe all the lies hook line and sinker. This is by far the largest number of people. Kempe only you know which layer you fall into but you are in one of them.
Well if Scotland can’t run up a debt of its own it can’t show a surplus either and either it’s running up this debt because of mismanagement by Westminster or the debt doesn’t really exist. Make your minds up.
As far as this supposed surplus is concerned it’s nothing of the sort. Scottish Labour protested that Holyrood had underspent its budget (by 0.9%). Not borrowing as much as you’d planned does not produce a surplus. It just means that you’re less in debt.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17719872.snp-government-underspent-its-budget-by-450m-last-year/
The SNP have previously accepted the GERS figures as being accurate.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/21/scotland-2018-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year
Kempe
You really really are dense. If you think the Scottish government can from a budget of approx £33b from the block grant can then borrow another £12-15 billion then you must be suffering from Britnat delusions.
You cannot get to grip with the difference between a Scottish government operating as a devolved government and the nation of Scotland and an independent country and of course the UK gov borrowing money spending it on what the UK wants (mainly in England) and then just allocating it to the devolved nations as it sees fit.
So I have come to the conclusion you are in the bottom layer of the Britnat pyramid of lies. I could never have been a teacher – no patience for dumbos.
Geoffrey
independence could possibly happen in a number of ways or not at all but I would point out to you, however, that the overall UK assets are substantially greater than the UK liabilities. Therefore any reasonable division of both will be favourable to Scotland. Plus Scotland will have a considerable bounty of ongoing natural assets that will backup its currency and help keep lending rates low.
During 2014 referendum Osbourne in his normal ignorant arrogant way said the pound is not Scotlands. The reply was well the debts are not Scotlands.
Methinks it is the Kingdom of England that will potentially have the greater problem and therefore why Westminster is so keen to hold on to Scotland.
Cubby, I see you making many accusations of stupidity and it appears you are a very clever man (I assume); you seem to know the unknowable even ie what the overall value UK assets are against which UK debt is held.
It is a very safe bet that in the event of independence, If say 8% of the UK debt was transferred to Scotland, lenders would charge more.
As you say the rest of the UK may also have a problem too.
Geoffrey
Yes if people are stupid enough to fill their heads full of propaganda from a Britnat media and Britnats without actually challenging the contents then yes they are stupid to do this.
The Britnat media gets a very poor rating consistently in international surveys for honesty.
The Britnat Pyramid of lies exists.
Geoffrey
About £13 trillion against £2trillion of debts.
Where has this analogy of a divorce suddenly come from?
MJ
The Britnat JK Rowling.
Will rest of UK get back the RBS bail out if we are dividing up Sets and liabilities.?
As I remember it the RBS was a PLC when it ran into financial difficulty. It was owned by its shareholders and the debts were no more the responsibility of the Scotland in its name than the Royals. Still it’s interesting that you cling to this notion that was much much put about at the time because I also remember reading an academic report that said the decision to bailout and acquire the the bank was at least in part motivated by a desire to undermine the case for Scottish independence.
I do remember Alex Salmond cheering them on, promising that an independent Scotland would free RBS from Westminster’s ‘gold plated’ regulations and stating that what was good for RBS was good for Scotland. Now it seems what was bad for RBS is bad for England.
https://www.cityam.com/alex-salmond-backed-rbs-s-abn-disaster/
Kempe
Scotland is not borrowing to pay for free prescriptions. Stop propagating lies.
Scotland gets a block grant calculated via the Barnett formula and also now (Recently) raises some some revenue via limited tax powers. It does not go around borrowing because it can’t. It doesn’t have the power to do so – that rests with Westminster. There are NO Scottish gov bonds issued.
Generally the Scotgov has a balanced budget over the years.
The UK spends money on infrastructure in England and then declares it UK spending and allocates part of the spend to England Wales and N. Ireland. The UK can declare any item a UK spend but the Govs of Wales, Scotland N Ireland cannot do the same. All part of the trick to come up with the stupid figures you quote. eg. A massive defence spend is allocated to Scotland, similarly HS2 costs are allocated as well.
The GERS figs are worked backwards – starting point – how do we get figs that Scotland has a massive deficit. Designed to be propaganda.
From a speech made by Alex Salmond in March 2008 (and which he’s been trying hard to bury ever since).
” we Scots are lucky enough to have the one of the best brands in the world – a global recognition and affection for our culture that money cannot buy. Take financial services. With RBS and HBOS – two of the world’s biggest banks – Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term. And a growing number of American firms – not least JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and State Street – are discovering that the Scottish financial sector can do anything you can do in London. “
It is a Scottish bank based in Edinburgh,where I believe it built it’s very expensive new offices, I believe Alex Salmond worked there.
“Will rest of UK get back the RBS bail out if we are dividing up Sets and liabilities.?”
Will Scotland get back the trillions of pounds in North sea revenue after independence? Will we get back the 6000 miles of stolen North sea, which means when you look out at Carnoustie from the shore you’re looking at English seas, which are really Scottish seas.
Incidently the English bank Barclays received the biggest bailout of any UK bank, but not from the UK taxpayer.
I should add that it was Westminster that decided their corporate buddies were too big to fail.
ROS
Now that sea border theft really really gets me in a bad mood. Please don’t mention it. I go to Fife on hol to golf a lot and when I tell it to anyone that we are looking out over part English waters when playing golf in St Sndrews people are actually staggered by the brassneck theiving of Westminster – Tony Blair aided and abetted in this theft by Donald Dewer, the first First Minister of Scotland. Labour thieving Britnats down the ages and built in to their DNA – just like lying.
All to try and claim some oil and gas revenues for England. Of course if we are all one big happy family why do this?
The sea boundary is at least 50 miles from St Andrews. You must have good eyesight!
Before the alteration anyone in Berwick upon Tweed could look out over “Scottish waters”. Why is that OK but not the other way around?
Kempe
Yes my eyesight is fine thank you for your concern and yes on a clear day you can see pretty far out to sea.
Your reply about Berwick is a pretty pathetic attempt to justify a change to a sea boundary made to justify thieving oil revenues. The UK defines oil and gas revenues as ex regio – because it can then claim a tiny percentage as belonging to England and the remaining amount to Scotland. It then subsequently in other reports has the cheek to then allocate a population share to Scotland of approx 8%. It’s called manipulating the books – pockling the figures to suit a political narrative.
You may want to exercise your brain and refer to your little book of Britnat excuses to try to justify thieving to explain why it was only on the West coast the boundary was changed.
My answer no oil/gas exporation has taken place on the West coast. I await your answer with anticipation of another good laugh.
Kempe
Still waiting for your answer. Don’t tell me that your little Book of Britnat Excuses didn’t give you a reason for why the sea boundary was changed only on the West coast (where the oil and gas is) and left the East coast unchanged. Are you on the phone to Britnat HQ trying to get some excuse?
Any debt allocation will depend on who, if any, is the surviving state: if the UK as a whole is dissolved (there are no longer two kingdoms united, so the name ‘United kingdom’ is not very accurate) and England and Scotland are two new independent states, then the debt would have to be divvied up by negotiation. That’s unlikely. Because the UK enjoys many benefits of membership of various international bodies and good terms for things like debt, so it is more likely that England would be the surviving state, will remain as the UK, and carry on as normal – in this case, Scotland has no debt and no legal obligation to pay any of the UKs debt (Scotland is a brand new nation again). That’s international law.
So, it depends if England wants to carry on as the uk or not on whether Scotland has any debt. Equally, Scotland could carry on as the uk – but in reality won’t, and in reality there will likely (maybe?) be negotiations on all aspects of shared assets. The ‘bank of England’ is in actual fact the bank of the U.K., and Scotland can also get a share of that, if it has to negotiate on a share of debt, etc.
But don’t imagine that the UK debt is so very bad, most of the debt is owned by the state, yes, and lots of the foreign debt has good interest rates and is in the GBP. Richard Murphy had this article recently:
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/11/23/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-uk-government-debt/
It is by no means the biggest question to be answered in the event of Scottish independence – probably sorting out defence will be the biggest headache. But the main thing is, that if England wants to remain as the UK with all its attendant benefits, and so is the surviving state, then it has the right to all assets and debts – and I would suggest the assets far outweigh the debts – and has very little reason to negotiate on debt when there are a ton of assets up for grabs by Scotland. Scotland though should demand their seas back, and get that trident monstrosity off their land – those will be seriously thorny issues.
It won’t be split. The continuing state, i.e. rUK, keeps the assets ( UN seat,etc) and the liabilities (national debt). We don’t either want or need any of it. See http://www.reservebank.scot.
Tim Rideout
There won’t be a continuing state. The UK ends. Two Kingdoms left. Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England.
It is not a secession or a UDI. The end of a bipartite Union.
So a unelected member of the undemocratic House of Lords, Lord Patrick Cormack, is trying to get his private members bill into law that rigs a second Scottish indyref, in a similar fashion to that of Labours George Cunninghame in 1979. Where the dead counted as no voters.
It’s patently obvious to me that democracy at Westminster is now what they say it is.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18163116.zombie-voters-decide-indyref/
ROS
The Britnats are panicking. If there is never going to be another independence referendum as stated by Alister Jackboot why even bother with this attempt at gerrymandering.
They’re panicking because they know they’ll lose this time, and all that comes with it.
Alister Jack is nothing more than a London puppet, who replaced another London puppet, what he says matters not.
ROS
Alister Jackboot just another Vichy Jock to be used by Westminster then dispensed with or if they have been very good and licked their boots long and hard they get in the House of Lords.
Roll on 2022 one hundred years of Irish Freedom for 87% of Ireland and Unification looking ever closer, thanks to Brexit, the Irish never gave up the struggle, unlike the Scots who did in 1746.
Don’t forget the Brits, like Ian Phoenix et al. who died in the helicopter crash at the Mull of Kintyre who said the struggle was not worth it if the Irish would just do it through the ballot box.
The Irish did do it through the ballot box. A landslide vote back in 1918 in favour of full all-Ireland, 32-county independence. The Brits decided they didn’t like that result so ignored it, eventually carving off some ahistorical sectarian entity called “Northern Ireland,” which Mr Phoenix and the rest of the helicopter boys were administering when they died.
74 years was a long time for Phoenix and “the helicopter boys” who grew tired of administering a failed policy, and flew to their deaths trying to get a more peaceful one.
It’s longer ago now than 74 years, but its creation still makes a mockery of British claims to revere the ballot box. As for the helicopter boys, I thought they were all MI5, Army, RUC — the enforcers of British rule in Ireland?
The ballot only became sacred with the adoption of universal suffrage.
You thought wrong. They were subordinates in MI5, the RUC, Army, and RAF who were murdered because they were off to Scotland on an independent mission, flying a hand-held landing device which had been taken over by their superiors right into the Mull’s Hill of Stone.
There was near universal suffrage by 1918 and it was a landslide vote. All under British terms.
But what was this independent mission you say British spooks were murdered for?
Craig is, of course, absolutely correct. It is deeply to be regretted that our political leaders in Scotland have slipped into something akin to the “no other way” mantra used to rationalise the British government policies imposed on Scotland against our will. The idea that legal validity and democratic legitimacy of Scotland’s restored democracy can only derive from the framework of rules and procedures constructed by the British state is, to those not intellectually hobbled by the “no other way” mindset, self-evidently erroneous. The idea that the Union might be broken whilst adhering to laws devised for the preservation of the Union is, to any rational mind, plainly illogical.
There is no route to independence which does not pass through a point at which there is direct and almost certainly acrimonious confrontation with the government of England-as-Britain. If we are persuaded that the Union is an anti-democratic construct and inevitably and increasingly detrimental to Scotland then we must be prepared to face this confrontation; not only that we may overcome it but that we may do our utmost to ensure that the confrontation does not escalate and that both nations come out the other side with a new form of association fit for modern democracies.
Craig is also correct when he implies that power – real power – is never given but must be taken. We must stop thinking of independence as a nice thing that Scotland might have if only a benign British state would give it to us. We must think of independence as an essential thing that Scotland must take from a malign British state intent on denying it to us.
Better still, adopt the mindset that the Union is a festering injustice which must be rectified.
Murdered Willie McRae comes to mind in all this,
Although we probably won’t get our indyref this year, hearts and minds in Holyroods unionist parties might be opening up to the idea of a indepedent Scotland.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18163172.snp-mp-says-parties-keen-indy/
ROS
You give up too easily. It’s only 16th of Jan. Let’s wait and see what the SNP are made of.
1320 Declaration of Arbroath.
2020 so far a Westminster Declaration that democracy ended in 2014 for Scotland. Democracy ain’t for the Scots in the UK. So if you want democracy in Scotland you know what has to happen.
“Labour MP Lisa Nandy says places “like Catalonia” may provide examples of how to “beat” the Scottish independence movement. So, with police brutality and by locking up elected politicians?”
https://mobile.twitter.com/stephenpaton134/status/1217558374092623874
Jeez oh, so Labour (Lisa Nandy) intends to beat up, shoot and tear gas Scots if they vote for independence, and here am I thinking that only the Tories would think of such a thing.
I guess it depends on who wins their leadership race…
https://politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2020/01/16/labour-s-problem-in-scotland-wasn-t-independence-it-was-corb
Yes Rebecca Long Bailey says she won’t stand in the way of a second independence referendum.
But she would have a Blairite as a deputy again, and says she wouldn’t hesitate with nuclear weapons. Still, she is the best of a very bad bunch in an ever-spinning hate-filled world.
Anyway, it is now too late for Scotland. Any move for independence now will just be dismissed by the world as a highly antiquated and peurile form of nationalism, rather than what it should have been, namely a demonstration against all the evils brought to mind by the word ‘Britain’.
“Anyway, it is now too late for Scotland. Any move for independence now will just be dismissed by the world as a highly antiquated and peurile form of nationalism,”
I’m curious as to how you’ve come to this way out of touch conclusion.
Marmite
Yes she certainly wants a Blairite deputy, which is bewildering. Hopefully she’ll end up with Richard Burgon if she does become leader. Cannot see Labour members wanting a replay of the Tom Watson farce.
Xavi
That’s very kind of her. Pity she will never be in power. Very kind of Clive Lewis as well.
Of course if Labour was not full of Britnats with a colonial mindset from the days of empire it wouldn’t even be a discussion point. It should be a given – the norm – not something to be praised.
Disabuse yourself of that mince! Corbyn was just the latest in a long line of Labour folk who just didn’t ‘get’ Scotland and how it’s view has massively changed, especially since 2014.
They won’t be back in Scotland.
Martinned
Thanks very much for posting this article. I certainly hope Labour takes its advice because it will go from 18% in Dec in the GE to single figures at the next GE.
Sorry to hear that Craig was taken ill after the AUOB rally. Hope he is better and all well now.
https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1216666504781074432
Ah, that explains why he hasn’t blogged yet about the amazing breakthrough of democracy in Russia yesterday.
Yes looks like we’ll be addressing President Putin, as Prime Minister Putin yet again in the near future.
It’s a great we bit of racketeering if you can get it. Look out for China’s President Xi in office for a considerably long time as well.
Republicofscotland,
Yeh well, name any leaders or potential leaders in “The West” who are in the same class as President Putin? I can’t think of anyone. Corbyn didn’t have the courage. All his likely replacements seem even worse.
The only one, I would consider as potentially in the same league is Scottish, and yet hardly anyone voted for him, because he has been almost completely demonised by The Mainstream Media.
The First British Politician since Harold Wilson, who told The Americans to do one – and he did it in The US Houses of Parliament live on TV, when summoned to give account, is George Galloway born in Dundee
Even the Americans said, they had never seen anything like it.
“George Galloway vs The US Senate”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRbMQ4t2Nfo
Tony
“Yeh well, name any leaders or potential leaders in “The West” who are in the same class as President Putin? ”
And which class would that be, on how to remain in power by electing a puppet similar to Medvedev, until you can return as president.
I can’t think of many if any Western country that’s managed that in recent times.
As for Galloways Senate success I’ve seen it and commend him on it, however Galloway advocates independence for every possible new country in the world except the one he was born in Scotland.
Most folk admire Galloways stance on helping the Palestinians and his tireless work in Iraq in the past, however Tony, you’re way off base if you think Galloway has any substantial backing in Scotland politically.
ROS
You are 100% correct about Galloway. Classic Britnat. Rights for everyone but Scotland.
I rember the arse turning up at a Debate for young people during the 2014 ref on independence drunk as a skunk.
The mood of most people here is that they are happy with Putin. He works well. He is much better than those we had earlier.
Probably, someone can’t wait for their chance to take the position, those are not happy. I guess, their feelings are alike Prince Charles’
As to ordinary people, we think very simplistically: if it works, don’t touch it. If the law allows it, then what’s the problem?
” I rember the arse turning up at a Debate for young people during the 2014 ref on independence drunk as a skunk. ”
Like his parents Galloway is teetotal.
Perhaps the retiring Prime minister Dmitry Anatolyevich Medvedev
is being quietly assingned to position of future President of All The Russias,
he has only been president so far for one term, so even under present rules, he is allowed to put himself up for a second term?
Michael,
actually, Medvedev does not resign, but changes his position for the Security Council. I mean it’s not a retirement, Medvedev is still somewhere around.
I’ll tell you a secret, if Medvedev will again be a puppet head for Putin, this will be approved by the Russians. We really want Putin to run the country, and we don’t care how they write it down on paper.
The head of our state is our inner affair, ain’t nobody’s business. Although I understand your desire to gossip, we here also like to gossip about the babushka Queen.
I hope and pray so too.
“Rights for everyone but Scotland”
Translation: same rights for everyone, regardless.
MJ
Bollocks
Wow, yes hope he is recovering well.
“Everybody’s had to fight to be free” – Tom Petty
Independence never occurs with the blessing of the former occupying power. You’ve got to throw the damn tea into the harbor and give the King the finger.
“Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never will. Show me the exact amount of wrong and injustices that are visited upon a person and I will show you the exact amount of words endured by these people.”
― Frederick Douglass
What pomposity – Westminster politics is more untruthful then Scottish politics. Here’s the truth: All politicians are partisan. All push the envelope of truth as far as possible just to score a debating point. And when you combine politicians’ natural proclivity for distortion with professional PR people, the public just don’t stand a chance. Johnstone’s claim Sturgeon and Salmond ‘promised’ the 2014 indyref would be a once in a generation event is no different from Sturgeon’s claim Scottish patients have a ‘legal’ right to NHS treatment in 12 weeks. When challenged the law was being broken daily, she replies no crime is being committed. Brevity prevents me detailing the thousands of other occasions in my lifetime politicians have let down voters. The fact is Sturgeon advocated the referendum was’ once in a generation.’ I and everyone else heard her. Advocated means to publicly support or recommend. Sturgeon used the phrase as part of her sales pitch for independence in a similar way shops use ‘when its gone its gone’ or ‘unrepeatable offer’ and numerous other slogans to drive up sales. Sturgeon used it to thumbscrew votes. Can you imagine if she now claimed it had not been a promise. Andrew O’Neil then asks: ‘So Ms Sturgeon, your word is not your bond?’ Bet she’s wishing now she had kept her mouth shut . If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. Apologies if anyone thinks I’m unpatriotic.
John Cunningham
Naw you are not unpatriotic just wrong. There was no promise verbally or in writing or advocacy it was a warning that Britnats are borderline fascists and as they see the polls narrowing for independence they will attempt to remove democracy just like they try to gerrymander. Pretty accurate warning if you ask me.
Think about it sensibly please. Why would Sturgeon or Salmond advocate the possibility of never another independence when the polls were showing NO would win. This whole once in a generation is the biggest pile of Britnat shit for some time and that’s saying something.
PS even if they did make a verbal promise or advocacy it would be superseded by the official signed UK document – The Smith Commision.
So I repeat it is nonsense. Anyone who believes this nonsense just likes Britnat lies.
Smooth, Cubby. You’ve got my vote and nae mistake.
John Cunningham
Yep you obviously just love Britnat lies. The only question is where are you on the Britnat Pyramid of lies. I think you are in the middle layer.
Interesting article, Craig. I was not aware of the fact that independence is international law only, though it makes perfect sense if one thinks about it.
I sincerely hope the Scots will have the will and the courage to stick up their spread middle and index fingers (of the outside of their hand, of course) to BoJo and his gang in good ol’ limey fashion and tell them to shove it, then declare independence. Just call their bluff because BoJo, just like his clone father across the Pond, is all talk and no action.
Barbara Tuchman – The First salute, Knopf, 1988. Details the immense importance recognition had on the US War of Independence, European nations, and Britain.
Faced with a rock-solid, adverse precedent such as that which you cite, Craig, shouldn’t any lawyer worth her salt aim to distinguish the particular case? Here, the continuing state of Scotland (“….. thus emphasising the historical continuity of the Scottish state. ‘) could be said to be bound by its treaty, couldn’t it, as must any state be.
ROS. Many in the West would like to see the back of Putin and Russia on its knees again. I am sorry, but the vast majority of people in Russia would want Putin to stay on and carry on securing Russia economically and keeping it Independent of US control. Russia is not our enemy, nor is Iran, not is China. It’s our rulers who tell people like you who to hate and blame whilst screwing you and raping the wealth as quickly as possible. The good news is the rest of the world, slowly is breaking free of US Uni Polar Power and seeing through “Fabricated Truth” and seeking true Independence in their own affairs, politics, economy and trade. Just as Labour was subverted by Blair I fear SNP will be, if it’s not already. Craig has a very different idea of Independence for Scotland than the “Real Politic” that you do.
Wikikettle,
many in the West follow the law and don’t care whether it reflects the real state of affairs. They do not know the very concept of law-making; they perceive the law as a kind of religion. They do not think about the meaning of the event, they calculate how it will be interpreted according to the law. The same people give power to their governments and their presidents have a special law that allows them to kill a foreign General during a peaceful diplomatic mission on the territory of a third country. People even don’t care if it’s murder, they care if it’s legalized.
The same western people accuse Russia of serving its own interests, following common sense and the wishes of the people, as it is with Crimea, or Putin’s presidency.
I can only say, mind your own business.
Well said. All of it!
Tatyana 22.12. The problem we have is that the whole state apparatus is still geared for Neo Imperialism and still trying to subdue the
whole world. In the process of accumulating and hoarding it has lost all the great institutions at home to corrupt political appointments.
Its hubris is so great that it still tries to do what Napoleon and Hitler failed to do. You really have a great leader in Putin and your Diplomat Lavrov towers head shoulders and brain above the little so called ‘what a’ State Dept and our totally useless FCO. You must be so proud that Putin and Iran’s Solemani together stopped the black flag of Isis being raised over Damascus and Baghdad and saved the Christians and Yazidi. The US, UK, Israel, KSA, Gulf States, Turkey and France will go down in history for these wars of devastation and barbarism.
Honestly, I’m not very interested in the causes of this problem, be it imperialism, or hubrisism, or corruptionism 🙂 whatever. I see that something needs to be done with untrue laws and the laws legalizing state’s crime, and I see that there is no effective mechanism for such a change.
I noticed this problem when discussing the Assange case.
Look what’s going on – people believe that Assange has smart lawyers, but don’t forget that the state has no less intelligent lawyers, and the judge also has the right to decide which side is more convincing.
Assange is in prison and people continue going to protests, as if not noticing that this will not help – the court and the government cannot release Assange because of the protesters’ request as they simply don’t have the legal ground for this act.
And on this matter I also commented: I believe that the right for a protest is a legitimate means of “letting the people’s steam off”. It does not oblige anyone of the state power to take any action. Look into the sense of a protest – people gather, people talk about a certain topic, people go home – it is essentially just a theme party!
Instead of believing in smart lawyers or concentrating on protests, I suggested to appeal to the parliament and the government with a demand to develop a separate law to protect whistleblowers, journalists and publishers exposing state’s crimes. I am sure that this could be done under the current anti-corruption legislation.
Then all Assanges and Snowdens and Chelsea Mannings and Ian Hendersons, both current and future, could reveal the truth without fear of the death penalty.
But I see that my proposal did not find support. It is a pity that so much human effort has been spent on protests, while it could have been spent on real improvements in democracy.
Wikikette
Thanks for posting one of many reasons why Scotland has to break up the UK. No more UK. Surely you should be pleased about that.
Best piece I have read yet, I wanted to go down to Westminster and protest but feel this could be futile too.
YES recall all Scottish MP’s and declare Independence, they are not going to let us go easily but surely history tells us we cannot go on bending the knee and touching the forelock to these Hooray Henrys, there is no Union it is dead in the water due to abuse, disrespect. Lying, ALBA GU BRATH. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
“For Johnson to base his refusal of a vital democratic step on such a flimsy pretext is extremely arrogant.”
No – for the SNP to ask for it was arrogant and for the Greens to help them was also arrogant. What’s “democratic” about trying to impose something the majority have said in a referendum, in general elections of both kinds, and in polls, that they Do Not Want? The corrupt SNP are too gutless, too afraid of getting their noses hoiked out of the trough, to risk calling for a Scottish general election. Literally the only thing they can come out with to distract the attention of the Scottish people from how the Partei is treating them, from the crap they’re making people go through in Scotland, is racial hatred. They’re the Scottish equivalent of UKIP or maybe the BNP. Unfortunately there’s a big market for them saying again and again to uneducated morons that the
FEBsare treating “Scotland” with “arrogance”, a statement which for grownups only makes sense if you equate Partei with Volk.It won’t be long before the stickers saying “End English Rule” turn into ones saying “English Out”.
What bollocks, there’s a candlelit vigil outside the Westminster staging post in Scotland, the Scotland Office on Friday, organised and held by English Folk for Scottish Independence.
All are welcome on AUOB marches, last Saturday the flags of St George fluttered among the Saltires, as we marched for OUR common cause.
N
You definitely post the most nonsense on this site and that takes some going when you look at your competition. The SNP have won the last NINE elections in Scotland. Multiple mandates for Indyref2.
Cameron only needed one mandate in 2015 for the euro referendum with only 36% of the vote and a low percentage of the seats won compared to the SNPs 80% of the seats and 45% of the vote. British Labour in Scotland won ONE seat out of 59 in December compared to the SNPs 48 seats and he only won it by pretending he was a Tory.
British state = undemocratic fascist state.
Cubby, at 20.20 you posted that George Galloway was ‘drunk as a skunk’ at at rally in 2014.This is a big lie. He does not drink !
You seem to advocate violence and seem to be a Scottish Nationalist, but to me you seem to be a troll wanting to cause trouble.
Sounds familiar on here from recent memory. 😉
I agree Wikikettle George Galloway does not drink alcohol I have met him often including in a London pub where he presided over a Burns night supper. So I wonder who Cubby is and what his game is.
” I have met him often including in a London pub where he presided over a Burns night supper. ”
Galloway addressing the haggis, a famous Burns Supper speech, yet the man can’t even bring himself to recognise his own country’s independence, worst of all he’s sober in the process.
Alas England is full of pretendy Scots such as Galloway.
In fact George Galloway recently defended Scotland’s right to decide its future and to hold a referendum.
https://www.rt.com/uk/478221-galloway-johnson-scotland-referendum/
One would have imagined that this would have if not endeared him at least earned him the right to be spared your racist smears.
Galloway is no “pretend Scot” he is politician who has served with distinction and honour over many years. He has stuck to his socialist principles and, in contrast to the SNP trimmers in Westminster, fought against imperialism. You should be proud to have such a fellow countryman-try and put aside the fact that he is opposed to capitalism. So was John Maclean.
Bevin
I read your attachment. It says “while I personally do not support independence”.
He is still a Britnat trying to force UK colonial control over Scotland. Independence is normal for most countries in the world. So you are correct Galloway is no pretendy Scot he is a British Nationalist.
I will give him credit for recognising the democratic mandate.
Republicofscotland. you have again let the cat out of the bag with this post also. Is being true ‘Scottish’ having to be drunk at Burns addressing the haggis ? George Galloway is part Irish part Scottish and an Internationalist. He does not hate the Irish nor the Scottish, nor the English. What do you mean by “England is full of pretendy Scots”. Indeed England has lots of people originally from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and many ex colonies. These peoples, like me, would like to be accepted as British. The language you are using is very sectarian and dangerous and nationalistic. I however agree that with Craig’s sentiment that Westminster has made us into a rogue state for sure. I fear however that nationalism will be as bad and divisive. My kind of Scotland would not look down English, Welsh, Irish and ex colonial British peoples. You seem to be saying there are real Scots and other type of Scots ?! This does not portend well I fear. George Galloway is always attacked by the MSM, Establishment and Blairites. Now by people like you, just because he believes we are stronger together than apart. Please debate his actual policies and arguments, not smear him personally like Cubby.
GG has no points over independence that have not been debunked before. Besides, we have moved on and I’m afraid George would find few votes here anymore.
Doug Scorbie
You really think that because he does not drink alcohol at times he has never touched a drop. I know what I saw and heard. I couldn’t give a toss about Galloway. Perhaps he doesn’t drink because of nights like that.
I don’t have any game other than golf and watching football but I don’t like Britnats especially Scots Britnats like Galloway who run down Scotland. Galloway is nothing special – plenty of Labour types like him.
If you love Galloway well good for you but Burns would have been sick of the thought of a Britnat like Galloway doing a Burns supper.
Wikikette
I have heard that said before that he does not drink well he was drunk that night I saw it and heard it as did others. Currying favour with religious groups to get their vote.
Back up that statement that I advocate violence where when or apologise. For someone saying I am lying you better back it up or you are lying because I know I do not advocate violence but I do support Scottish indepence as being independent is normal and is the case for the vast majority of countries in the world.
Wanting to cause trouble – yeh standing up for your democratic rights is causing trouble if you live in Scotland. I know I know I’ve heard it all before get back in your box Scotland and shut up
I reckon you are the troll. I wait for your evidence that I advocate violence.
Cubby 00.36 I apologise if you personally saw George Galloway have a drink and was drunk. Craig knows George and has been
given a platform by him many times. Craig has not called George a liar about the drink nor attacked him personally despite George’s views on Scottish Independence. I hope Craig can help us with this ? I also said you ‘seem’ to be advocating violence, using the language of Malcolm X “by any other means.” The significance of which you might or might not be aware of. There is one part of me which would like to see Scotland leave the Union for the reasons Craig gives. There is also another part that sees the arguments against, which George articulates. Please debate these, but at the end of the day, its the people of Scotland who decide. There will be trouble anyway with a huge financial crash coming. In these times politicians historically have always pitted one group against another to deflect blame. So please tune down the rhetorick about the ‘English’. I would love , as I have said before to Hauty, to sail to a Scotland free of WMD, with nationalised industries, control of its own currency, with no free movement from Europe, its politicians not in the grip of big business and Europe dictating its fisheries policy. It was a crime that Thatcher squandered North Sea oil revenue and did not spend it on Scotland. I agree all that.
Wikikette
First of all I did not ask you to apologise about my comments about Galloway. I did not say he was a drunk as in drunk all the time. I commented as I saw him on one occasion which I thought was very poor as he was one of a panel in front of an audience of youngsters as 16 -17 year olds were getting a vote for the first time anywhere in the UK in 2014 ref. He reminded me of the occasion I saw Kennedy the Lib dem on question time. If he was not drunk he did a very good job of appearing so. I did not say I saw him drinking as you say in your post. Try and stick to actual comments I make.
Now I asked you to apologise about saying I advocated violence. You have not done so. Where and when did I seem to be advocating violence? ” By any other means” where and when did I say that? I know I do not and have never advocated violence for Scottish independence anywhere. So why not save us both time and just admit you got it wrong and apologise.
You may share some opinions with me but anyone who advocates keeping Scotland in a subjugated UK Union gets no respect from me.
Wikikette
Still waiting for your evidence that I posted advocating violence. I know I have never so I would advise that you retract and apologise.
The Scottish standoff will not be decided at Westminster
Martin Kettle
Boris Johnson will have to back massive investment north of the border if he wants to hold back the tartan tide
Thu 16 Jan 2020
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/boris-johnson-scottish-independence-nicola-sturgeon-snp
Boris Johnson v The Scots? He would run a mile.
Looking at the SNP strategy, it looks designed to scupper independence. They want money and the status quo in my opinion. Where are they with the demonstrations? What is their plan? It’s abysmal
Ros Thorpe
So you have looked at their strategy but they don’t have a plan – that comment does not make any sense.
“Where are they with the demonstrations”
There was a march in Glasow on Saturday. You know the one Craig was on and gave a speech at – see his post above for the picture.
Where are the SNP with this? Are you really sure they are pushing for independence? I’m not
ROS Thorpe
We will find out what the SNP are made of this year – the 700 year anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath.
Keep up the pressure.
Certainly hope and pray you are raising Assange’s plight at each and every opportunity. Now is not the time to be squeamish or to stand on formalities. The hobbyhorse of a few hot-headed nationalists chasing an unachievable dream pales into insignificance against this bloody murder going on in full sight in our midst.
Re Assange, a few people are asking whether Julian has the best legal team. Aymeric Monville, author-publisher of (‘Julian Assange in Danger of Death’, is quoted as saying:
‘We expected a request for release and it didn’t happen. At the hearing, the defence, for the most part, requested to have more time with their client. All this is very small compared to all that should have been done. Where are the requests to release him for health reasons? Where is the claim for political prisoner status? Where are the complaints of torture?’ (Sputnik news, 15/2/20).
I know Craig has expressed confidence in Julian’s legal team and suggested that they have a sound strategy and we should be patient, but I have been surprised that his team haven’t at least pushed for better treatment. There’s little point in having a smart strategy if your client is dead before the trial begins. Here in Australia, not even convicted serial killers are subjected to conditions as harsh as Julian’s.
Great post Thanks..a shame as Mary’s alerted us that the march cost you some illness..Get well soon
You see..it,s really simples.. we have a Tory gov..who were responsible for the penny pinching that led to Grenfell..
Troy Austerity.. = Thousands dead Money in the Tory coffers
War on the Disabled = thousands dead.. money in the Tory coffers.
Now, I care not if readers watch PM,Qs on Wednesdays. . But from us Scots perspective, it’s ALLWAYS a disgusting display of venom
Directed at Scotland ( SNP ) ..The Open Racism – ” GO HOME ” Ect
Now, if you will.. consider for a second, that Scotland was costing London Billions per year ( a lie- as the opposite is true )
Why hold on to such a money draining Nation.. ???
As I said.. It’ s Simples – Reasources -..And I Don’t just mean Oil And Gas…and the Stolen Seas
Brianfusijan
The Glasgow march is a fair distance and it was wet the whole time so if you didn’t have decent waterproofs you could get in trouble. I heard Craigs speech and I did think he was a bit more subduded than other times. Hopefully he gets well soon.
With regards to Johnston the great liar at least this time at PMQs he only stated that Scotland was the highest taxed nation in the Uk rather than in the whole of Europe. My question – is a scaled down lie a better lie or is a lie just a lie. Because they are both lies.
Brian. I have just read that Johnson has appointed a woman to the Moore Bick inquiry who received a £71,000 donation (via a charity) from the cladding manufacturers, Arconic. YCNMIU.
Boris Johnson vows to look into his pick for Grenfell inquiry
PM named Benita Mehra last month, but it has emerged that she had links to cladding firm
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/17/boris-johnson-vows-to-look-into-his-pick-for-grenfell-inquiry
‘The prime minister met representatives of the Grenfell community at a pre-arranged visit to Downing Street on Thursday night shortly after it emerged that Benita Mehra was previously president of a charity that received a £71,000 donation from the philanthropic arm of Arconic, the US firm that made the panels found to be the main cause of fire spread.’
‘Grenfell Tower
For the £11 million renovation of Grenfell Tower, Arconic provided one component of the cladding, known as Reynobond PE aluminum composite panels, to Omnis Exteriors. Reynobond PE was not the most fire-retardant option. On 26 June 2017, short time after the Grenfell Tower fire which resulted in the death of 72 people, Arconic issued a statement that it would no longer sell its Reynobond PE (polyethylene – aluminum composite cladding) for use in high-rise buildings. The company said this is applicable worldwide due to the difficulty of being sure that its material would be used in a way compliant with building regulations in various countries. An inquiry into the fire in 2018 found that the cladding, which incorporated polyethylene material within, was the primary cause of the spread of the fire.The fire resulted in several lawsuits against Arconic.’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arconic
Brilliant – let’s do it !
Absolutely right. It is demeaning to keep asking for what will never be given and does not need to be given by anyone other than the people of our own sovereign state. Have we really become a nation of cowards? No? Then we must take our own future into our own hands.
John Sharp. Yes and your own currency ?
Yes.
“We should assemble all of Scotland’s MEP’s, MP’s and MSP’s in a National Assembly and declare Independence on the 700th Anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath, thus emphasising the historical continuity of the Scottish state.”
There is an implicit hope that UK lacks the equivalent of Francoist structures that would arrest participants of the putative National Assembly, and were the mutinous convention assembled abroad, arrest the participants upon return. I guess that may be the case…
But how could the Scottish Parliament take control of the Scottish regiments in the British army? That is the only way they could prevent military suppression by Johnson. At the moment independence is only supported by about 50% of Scots so many in the Scottish regiments may not go along with it..
“Westminster Cannot Block Scottish Independence”
Oh yes it can. The reality of what happened on 12/12/2019 has obviously not sunk in. Boris’ pitch has been very cleverly planned and executed whilst his public buffoonery was distracting everyone. Despite loosing all parliamentary votes in his preelection period and then sacking the rebels, thereby reducing his majority to minus 40, he confidently called a general election which he must have known he would win and by a rather incredible 80 majority. During the elections Boris also made sure that he regarded parliament as an impediment to his wishes and would do everything to undermine its legitimacy as it had gone against the ‘will of the people’. He also made clear that he wanted to tinker with the judiciary and constitution to his advantage. Now with a huge majority he has a mandate to rule by dictat.
Either Boris was bluffing and got away with it or he knew the process was fixed. For him something like Scottish indipendence is a mere inconvenience which he can easily dismiss.
There is no parliamentary route to getting Scottish indipendence or anything else important for that matter. Resistance has to be outside parliament.
Boris’ disdain extended to avoidance of scrutiny by the press and public which he was allowed to get away with. This disdain will now be a feature of how he treats parliament as an irrelevance.
The danger is now also accentuated by the recent US assassination of Soleimani and his governments backing for this action and the more recent E3 further wrecking of the Iran deal. International law has also now been declared redundant.
SA
Satan’s plan is weak. He wants to scare you with poverty and loss of control. Johnson’s apparent power comes from faking the election results. He only has one idea, which he he has painstakingly memorized, that if he threatens the EU they will cave in OR our import only economy is paid for by the people.
He doesn’t have any other ideas other than cheat and bluff. Like the white sofa, if he fails he buys her another one. Arrogance. Ignorance and happenstance.
He has a rather snide sneer which masks absolute terror at being discovered a charlatan. Oh, yes, he has another plan, to smokescreen his failures with Zionist colonial war. He can do that without consulting parliament and all the blood and wreckage will be on his miserable hands. Like Cameron and Libya or Blair and Iraq.
If that’s what you call brains, how do you manage to get up in the mornings?
“Oh yes it can.” Really? I thought Craig’s argument was that Parliament’s, and the government’s, was not obligatory. Everybody knows Johnson won’t agree. But he may be forced. He’s a notorious U-turner, only he absents himself when it comes to the point.
Craig’s assumptions are that the EU will recognise an independent Scotland because they loath the U.K. But loathing and realpolitik are two different things. Macron and Merkel certainly have not much admiration for trump, but have agreed with U.K. to sink the Iran deal because they were told to do so on pain of tariffs imposed otherwise. Also recently the German minister of defence was making noises about continued close cooperation with U.K. post Brexit in defence matters. There is also the small matter of the nuclear deterrent in Faslane and NATOs dependence on it. Even if Europe decides to back Scottish indipendence Trump will not want his ally in the UN snd coalition of the willing weakened with such a division.
There is also the assumption that secession will occur followed by a ‘confirmatory’ referendum. This assumes that the vote will be to leave the union but this cannot be guaranteed. What if the vote goes the other way either because this is a genuine poll or because there has been much manipulation? After the greatly unexpected result of 12/12 nothing can be guaranteed.
BTW it is not that I am not in favour of indipendence for Scotland. I wish them good luck the state of British politics and the way it is manipulated and is deeply flawed and in terminal decay. It needs reshaping and modelling but I am not sure Scotland has a strong hand here.
“Craig’s assumptions are that the EU will recognise an independent Scotland because they loath the U.K.”
I don’t think that’s what he says, nor is it true. The EU will accept an independent Scotland because the French will advocate it. It’s the ‘Auld Alliance’, and I can tell you the sentiment still exists in France, though not as strong as it used to be. I have witnessed it personally. And the Spanish won’t object, they have said. The case won’t be the same as Catalonia, once Britain has Brexited at the end of January. Everybody is fed up with Britain and its behaviour, so no great sympathy.
I wouldn’t be too afraid of Trump’s bluster; all you need is a little diplomatic subtlety to get round him.
The real issue to my mind, as an outsider to the issue, is whether the independentists are willing, feel themselves strong enough, to go against Westminster, and that judgement I don’t feel qualified myself to make.
Of course a referendum can go either way, evidently. That’s why Johnson chose an election rather than a second referendum. More fool LibDems and Labour for allowing themselves to take the bait.