In Conversation With Stella Assange 33

Stella produced these two videos of us as part of her “in conversation” series. Topics include campaigning for Julian with Generation Z, spying and diplomacy, Margaret Thatcher, and state action against whistleblowers.

I love these because they are so relaxed, natural and really not very different to the ordinary conversations we have when not being filmed. They are part of a series and I hope you will subscribe to Stella on Youtube or Substack.


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33 thoughts on “In Conversation With Stella Assange

  • Shardlake

    Most enlightening talks. I should not have been surprised that out of your intake of twenty-two that there were only two of you who had not attended Oxbridge. It’s why this nation is in its current position. Wealthy unintelligent individuals so readily occupying positions of power and influence.

  • AG

    Sry, I already stated this last year, there really should be a biopic about the man in the white sweater.

    Already the second 25 minutes of part 1 when it was posted on 2 weeks ago, were terrific.

    Every sentence about Craig Murray´s “formative years” there was a narrative thrill. This is being confirmed by part 2 now (also the comedy).

    A screenstory cames to mind automatically.
    And I would assume I am not the only one experiencing this while watching.

    Great material.
    One major task would be to carve out from the masses of stories the one best single plot line adequate for a motion picture in the 2020s. With all the caveats of production. You will currently hardly find a pro-Russia movie financeable e.g.

    Or a mini-series for that matter which would offer more time for more stories, think Kenneth Branagh as Boris Johnson in “This England”, or Ewan McGregor as “Halston”. I mean the concept not the tone or the way the people and subject are depicted, to avoid misunderstanding here.

    re: “Our Man in Havana”.

    There is a German movie called “Curveball”, a drama with satirical undertones, about the Iraqi source of the same code name, Rafid Ahmed Alwan, who provided the false evidence for the Iraq War.
    He invented everything as we know and everybody knew it. The movie is not perfect but has its merits. You might wanna check it out.
    intern. Trailer:

    The late former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt (who I never was a fan of) in the late 1990s attended a meeting of German diplomats preparing to take their new posts. There was a young ambitious lad assigned to Moscow. Schmidt asked him about Russian literature. The young man apparently knew nothing. Schmidt politely suggested he might first read a few works by Dostojevski and Tolstoy (what a cliché!) to better understand the country.
    And that was 25 years ago.

    p.p.p.s. any views here on Len Deighton, Eric Ambler, Maugham?

    • will moon

      Hi AG, Ambler’s books from WW2 and prior l found interesting, his later work whilst similar I found less interesting. In his early work in the 1930’s there is a tension present, that mirrors the geopolitical tensions in the 1930’s, the confusion and the ideological conflict. His perspective at this time is very much of “the ordinary, decent citizen”, neither strongly “left” or “right”, his later work is more aligned with the zeitgeist of the Cold War. I found some powerful clues regarding the history of 20th century and the inception of the Cold War in these early work.

      In the “Mask of Dmitros” (1939) there are some very interesting statements regarding the geopolitics of those times, not at all conditioned by the mainstream ideologies. His other work from the 1930’s and early forties contains similar gems but not to the same degree, in my opinion. I read them during 2020-2021 for the purposes of historical research. I don’t believe the time was wasted.

      I have read most of Maughm’s work, it was important to me as part of my education. I don’t believe he found anything to sooth his existential angst – no great mysteries were unveiled to him, according to what I found in his work. I got the impression that knowledge of his early life was necessary for a full understanding of what he wrote about. His upbringing was decent but distant and it is this emotional distance, which is the central motif through which I view his work. “The Razors Edge”(1944) is the novel which I thought most important and the most unusual amongst his output and in this book he comes closest to breaking out of strictures of his upbringing and class. I enjoyed reading his stuff but I can see now that there was a competitive element in my interest – as if his various novels were peaks I had to ascend to enable further development lol – probably had a chip on my shoulder back in those days. “The Magician” (1908) is based on Aleister Crowley and has some powerful themes beneath the plot and the writer benefitted from Crowley being close to him in space and time – I think he may have known him/known of him, socially, and this nearness was tangible and enticing for this reader.

      • AG

        thx Will, much to learn there.
        What few novels I did read by Ambler were in fact pre 40s. The fascination emanating from the very uncertainty you describe.
        The world order not yet set.
        You could argue: if the novel of the 19th century embodied the unfulfilled real-life promises the bourgeoisie had made to the working-class at the turn between 18th to 19th century, then “fantastic” genre fare by Ambler was the last attempt of literature to recall this failed attempt of global revolution by picturing the world order as still alterable and not cast in stone. This is also one aspect that makes them more modern than one might have thought 30 years ago.

        p.s. I forgot that Ambler enjoyed a really long life. He in fact died the same year when France won the Soccer World Cup!
        (or to put it via Monty Python: “And here is the final question for you Karl Marx: “Who won the English Football Cup in 1949?!”)

    • J Arther Nast

      Ag Schimdt was correct. Even for a basic understanding.. Dostoyeveski. Turgenev and Tolstoy,particularly the last chapter of War and Peace are required for even a superfial understanding of what forms Russian understanding.of the world. I would also refer to* A woman in Berlin *By Anomomous who saw close up and personal a wide variety of Russians and tried to make sence of the turmoil in her life.

      • AG

        of course “Anonymous” in Germany became popular only because it bolstered their prejudice that the Red Army was full of rapist maniacs.
        (which btw was not true. Up to this day there is no such proof. As well US and British troops could have been responsible for rapes. Cases are known for all Allied armies in those years. This is due to a survey issued by the German Parliament in more sane times.)

        • Lapsed Agnostic

          Based on hospital records detailing a massive spike in abortion rates in the months that followed the end of World War II, over 100,000 women are estimated to have been raped in Berlin alone, AG – but maybe it was all consensual, maybe your womenfolk were so overjoyed to be liberated from Nazi tyranny by the Red Army that they just forgot to be careful.

          On a related note, I’m still struggling to get my head round why our host is prepared to sleep outside on the pavements of a European capital, in temperatures down to -4 degrees C, in order to accurately report the performative witterings of overpaid lawyers (on both sides) in a trial which, even in the unlikely event that the judges do record a verdict of genocide, will just be ignored by Israel as per – and then a few days later, in his latest ill-advised tweet, is adding more fuel to the Israeli propaganda machine:

          For the avoidance of doubt: rape doesn’t always happen in war. In the Falklands, where over 10,000 Argentine troops (many of them young conscripts) were stationed in reasonable proximity to a number of young women for nearly two months, to my knowledge, there were no cases of rape reported (although there was an informal report of a sexual assault where a woman was strip-searched). There is still no compelling evidence that Hamas & co committed any rapes on October 7th or afterwards. Wasn’t what they did do bad enough?

          • AG

            …to provide trustworthy numbers re: rapes in WWII is extremely difficult.
            One government study summarizes various surveys done:
            However it´s available only in German:

            From that study:

            Helke Sander, who came up with the 100.000 figure in Berlin during the war which you quote and wich is most “popular” has however limited statistcal basis.
            Her study was from 2021.

            A more skeptical one from 2016 has following:

            Here unlike with Sander figures from the West German Statistical Office are taken from 1956, which speaks of 68.000 illegitimate children from under occupation period: fall 1944 to 1955. (West Germany only!)

            Then there is the assumption that 10% of rapes lead to births.
            All in all the study only referring to West Germany, lacking figures from East Germany, comes up with 860.000 rapes for that 11 year period.

            According to those figures the 68.000 illegitimate children had:

            “55 % American fathers, 15 % French fathers, 13 % British fathers, 5 % Soviet fathers, 3 % Belgian fathers and 10 % fathers of other nationalities.”

            With their own statistical model this would result in:
            “190,000 women living in the Federal Republic fell victim to American perpetrators, 50,000 women to French perpetrators, 45,000 to British, 15,000 to Soviet and 10,000 to Belgian perpetrators.”

            The study stresses that any such data has to be taken with caution.
            (p.s. Helke Sander is no sociologist but a movie director.)

            To compare this with Wehrmacht is almost impossible due to the area and huge numbers involved:
            “In view of the 17 million members of the Wehrmacht, 13 million of whom were deployed in the army alone, in view of the duration of the war of almost six years and in view of the large number of theaters of war from Norway to Africa, this undertaking would have been doomed to failure from the outset.”

            How many rapes are there in peace time? Would have been in Germany without WWII? Since rape was not regarded as serious crime and in marriage not as a crime at all. In the FRG rape in marriage has been criminalized as late as 1997.

            To quote the Highest West German Court in 1966:

            “The wife does not fulfill her marital duties by the fact that she is simply
            uninvolved (…), marriage demands from her (…) a granting in conjugal affection and readiness to make sacrifices
            and forbids indifference or reluctance.”

          • J Arther Nast

            Being old, but with a good memory I remember American soldiers at the end of WWII saying “we fucked them for Hershey bars”
            Not rape of course.

          • Lapsed Agnostic

            Thanks for your reply AG. Abortion was illegal in Germany at the start of 1945, but the law was relaxed in Berlin in the summer of that year. Why do think that was? According to surviving records, in just one of its districts, nearly 1000 applications for abortions were approved between July & October. I have an A grade in A-level maths, so I don’t need Helke Sander or anyone else to tell me what to make of that. I also doubt whether anywhere near 10% of rapes lead to pregnancy: the chances of young women who aren’t on the pill getting pregnant from an act of unprotected vaginal intercourse are only about 10% for a few days around the time of ovulation, and after the age of 30 those chances begin to fall significantly, and after 40 they fall off a cliff.

            Just because you’ve had a child out-of-wedlock between the years of 1945 & 1955 in what would become West Germany and claimed that the biological father was American, French, British, Soviet – or even Belgian – doesn’t mean that you were raped. I doubt whether there would have been many rapes outside marriage in Germany in peacetime. I don’t know about Germany, but rape outside marriage was (and still is) regarded as a serious crime in Britain because most men didn’t want other men enjoying what they regarded as theirs. In the UK, the rape within marriage law was only changed in the Year of our Lord 2003 – one of the few good things New Labour ever did, if you ask me.


            You’re right, Mr Nast, that would be prostitution. There’s a lot of that goes on in Germany to this day (much more than in the UK). I may not necessarily approve of it, but it’s not rape. Are you over 85? If so, well done on making to that age with faculties intact.

          • will moon

            [ MOD: Caught in spam-filter ]

            This issue, of rape attributed to the advancing Soviet Army as it entered “civilised” Europe, is important to Nazi apologists and their fellow travellers. It allows them to continue the Nazi line about “ the Asiatic Judeo-Bolshevik subhuman beast-men” that Nazi propaganda morphed into once the military situation on the Eastern Front became less promising and defeat looked more likely.

            What most don’t understand is the behaviour of Axis troops (barring the Finns) on the Eastern Front in WW2, in relation to the civilian populations they encountered during their “Drang Nach Osten”

            This behaviour was framed by statements like “the Commissar Order” and Hitler’s pre-war dictum, “ In the East we will shoot anyone who looks askance at us”. “Mein Kampf ” spoke of the liquidation of 50 million Slavs with the survivors to be treated as the European or Americans treated non-whites in their dominions ie do what you like.

            In Omer Bartov’s “The Eastern Front 1941-45, German Troops and the Barbarisation of Warfare”, he takes three Wehrmacht divisions of differing character and follows their relationship with the subject populations as delineated in the divisions extant paperwork. The three divisions he chose had considerable documentation available and the results of his analysis make grim reading – these eastern civilians were to worked to death, starved, denied the shelter of their own homes, beaten, shot, hung and of course the unspoken crimes, rape etc.

            By 1943 in the East, the Wehrmacht was holding a front several thousand miles long. Around this front they created “security zones”. This meant cutting down every tree, rubbling every building etc to a depth of 10 -15km for the thousands of miles of the frontline! The people who lived in these buildings were turned out, often into the snow, to die or be subsequently be shot by security patrols for crimes like “wandering about”, “entering the security zone” etc. It was colonial slaughter but carried out on white people, allowable because the Eastern peoples had been dehumanised to a similar degree as the indigenous non-white victims of white settlers all over the globe.

            All allegations of the advancing Soviet Army raping civilians must be viewed through this lens. This is not to minimise any rapes that occurred or to use tit-for-tat (they did it so we can) logic but to remind us that even with a topic so grim, wider ideological considerations are not to be jettisoned, indeed the grimmer the subject, the more vigorous are the attempts to profit from narrative control

  • will moon

    I enjoyed these two chats. The two of you cover a lot ground here

    Mr Murray when you spoke of your contribution to the laws governing the extraction of minerals from the seabed you sounded like “Slartibartfast”, the diffident creator in “The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy”, when he modestly admitted that he had “done Norway” and was, amongst other things, responsible for the fjords along the coastline of the country – whatever, it sounds like a thing you should be proud of.

    When you spoke of “ Officers” motivated by cash, two questions came to mind. Phil Agee spoke of the CIA being “Capitalism’s Invisible Army” and I have extended the analogy to MI5/6 etc.; in my crude understanding, that too is an ideology – Gordon Gekko said greed is good. Also would it not be possible for a country say one of those oil-rich monarchies, like Oman or wherever to “buy” their loyalty by giving loads more cash? What binds these elements and secures the status quo? I am not trying to disagree but I am wondering how such mercenary tendencies are harnessed by the corporate state if self-interest is paramount? Are you saying they are pirates who happen to be sailing in the same direction as the people who run the country?

    • Sam (in Tiraspol)

      Oman already *is* a bought-and-paid-for colony of Britain. The UK operates several sites there, including outposts of GCHQ which sit on the high-flow data cables that connect most of the Arab world. The UK also does a heck of a lot of “free” training for the Omani military.

      However, it must be understood that there is a long history of Britain treating Oman as a de facto/actual colony, so the ties between the ruling Omani elites and the ruling British elites are quite deep.

      In reality, the monarchy of Oman is despised by the actual people on the ground who live there, so the whole situation is just a house of cards waiting to fall (same could be said of Bahrain and Qatar as well).

      • will moon

        Thanks Sam (in Tiraspol) for your contribution.

        Oman is hardly ever in the British news. I was suprised, when looking at a map of Yemen at how big the country was – almost the same size as Yemen yet it has hardly any media presence, I can’t help wondering if this by accident or design – probably design, so Brits don’t realise that this country is so very closely linked to Britain – a colony in Britain’s “low key” 21st century empire.

        How stable is this monarchy Sam? Do you think it has future?

  • Madeleine Love

    That was great. Thanks to both.
    I said on Stella’s substack, where the transcription of the first video was posted, that ‘someone’ should compile a book of prescient Julian Assange quotes – as a fundraiser if nothing else, and to get his words into desk calendars.

  • frankywiggles

    Very interesting and enjoyable. I would like to have heard more details about that psychological examination for the Foreign Office. If its purpose is to weed out people with human values like empathy what sort of questions are they asking .. what are the correct answers .. and how did you succeed in passing??

    The use of these psychological tests does help to explain why there have been no objections from FO officials (let alone resignations) over Britain’s role in genociding Palestinians. It also suggests that such examinations are mandatory for would-be politicians and employees of state-corporate media. Strictly sociopaths and psychos only please.

  • Blue Dotterel

    A very interesting interview. The seeming lack of empathy for others in the FO is concerning from my point of view. I suspect this lack may be the same in the UK’s judicial system, which does not bode well for the Assange hearing next month.I suppose we can only hope for a non-political outcome, however unlikely.

    In any event, Stella was interviewed a few days ago by the “Due Dissidence” duo Keaton and Russell, on the “Jimmy Dore Show”. Nothing in it that we do not know from Craig’s reports, but good to know that Julian’s plight is still being kept alive on various other sites.

    • Crispa

      I rather wonder what the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office actually do. To judge from their recent emails its main preoccupation is adding people to its Sanctions Lists, which now include nearly twenty thousand people. It has also spent millions in (successfully) defending its placing of Brit Graham Phillips on the list. Julian is certainly up against it.

    • Tom Welsh

      “The seeming lack of empathy for others in the FO is concerning from my point of view”.

      Very true. Kafkaesque bureaucracy. One is tempted to ascribe it to Realpolitik – but that entails policies aimed at pursuing one’s own interest. It is very hard to see that any policies pursued by HMG in the past 5, 10, 20 or more years have conduced in any way to the British public interest.

      Perhaps to the interests of certain people, though…

  • Brian Sides

    Private Eye have an interesting article FLOG OF WAR on Israel breaking humanitarian laws

    In it they compare David Cameron’s lack of action with Margaret Thatcher’s actions in 1982, when Israel invaded Lebanon resulting in an Israel arms embargo that lasted till 1994.

    Is this the same Margaret Thatcher that ordered the sinking of the Belgrano, killing 323 many young recruits?

  • Republicofscotland

    This is very disappointing at this crucial time.

    “But at this moment, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and his legal team are preparing for a major hearing on February 20 before the High Court of the Justice in the United Kingdom. They view the hearing as a final opportunity to save him from extradition to the United States, where he was charged with violating the Espionage Act in 2019.

    Assange needs press freedom organizations, especially those with U.S. headquarters, to strengthen their stand against the charges from the Justice Department. However, for another year, CPJ excluded the imprisoned former WikiLeaks editor-in-chief from their database of jailed journalists. ”

    • will moon

      AG if you were from Britain, I doubt you would have forgotten” The Wicked Witch of the West’s” fuhrer-like catchphrase

      With the benefit of hindsight, “there is no alternative” actually meant “ there is no alternative to making the super-rich wealthier” – she was a programmed dolt (politically speaking) dancing to the tune of unseen backers. With her creepy human resources philosophy, “ Is he one of us?” and her social policy directed at “the enemy within”, she was a slavish servant of oligarchy yet she is seen in some quarters as a strong leader!

      I, and most people I know would be happy to dance (amongst other activities less artistic!) on this woman’s grave

      Mr Murray says she was decent with him, (despite not remembering his name). I have no problem with this – one can only take people as one finds them but I will always remember her as a stealer of lives, a destroyer and Jimmy Savile’s best mate. The modern bureaucratic state’s worst crimes are often anonymous but she put her media persona front and centre, making it clear who was “responsible” for the policies her government implemented, even those policies were the standard wish list of the wealth-extremists since the dawn of modernity – the hedge funds and the billionaires and their fellow travellers – the vile masters of mankind, as Adam Smith styled them.

      • AG

        I remember one of my professors used to talk about how nice it was to have dinner with Albert Speer. Who, as he never forgot to add, was a very cultured man.
        As has repeatedly been pointed out on this blog (not least by Mr. Murray himself) the wickedness and brutality by people is in no relation to their private and personal conduct and demeanor.
        Even in crazy places like Communist Romania (which had nothing to do with Communism) under Ceausescu the elite sent its off-spring to special private schools in Switzerland or France.
        This marriage of culture and money make it likely that dictators´ children are students at the same institutions as rich liberal natives in GB or the US.
        This is no news. But is conveniently forgotten these days. When “democracies” turn out to cause the most deaths and violence on the planet. Nasty truth.

        • will moon

          I am under the impression that recent scholarship has been unkind to “ Inside the Slave State” and Speer’s other literary offerings. The doings of “the Fighter Staff” have come more clearly into focus. The case for Speer’s primary complicity in slave labour and genocide is easier to make than it was at the war’s end and in the post-war period – also it must be hard to hang a good dinner guest!

          Vaguely related but I read a searing account of the use of slave labour at Mittel-Bau Dora, the extension of the tunnels in the Kohnstein and the various underground facilities required by the 3rd Reich. I have forgotten the name and author unfortunately but in the book I read there were crude sketches of the tunnelling work done by an artistic participant, they were powerful – images of incredible descriptive power – the closer to the light source the figure is in the drawing, the more viable chance of survival the worker had and the drawings portray this as the darkest figures are forlorn, despairing shapes with little identity who died at fantastic rates of extinction. These people performed the heavy manual labour required by the tunnelling process.

          • AG

            From today´s POV the major issue is the way how capitalist logic behind historic cases like “Dora” are handeled in relation to slave and forced labour today (e.g. child labour on cocoa farms, think Nestlé or Hersheys).
            This proves complete negligence on the part of historic scholarship.

            Memorial institution “Mittelbau Dora” due to academic professionalism and compartmentalization would never engage in cross-over scholarship and research of such a “bold” kind.
            But it´s true also for less daring comparison like this text on the official “Mittelbau Dora” site, which is of course member of the network of Holocaust related VIP bodies in Germany:

            “(…) Donations for victims of Nazi persecution in Ukraine

            The current war in Ukraine has left many people in great need. Among those suffering are the survivors of Nazi persecution. Now more than ever, they need our help to ensure that they have the basic necessities of life such as warmth, food and medical care, but also to support reconstruction work.

            You can donate via our aid network for victims of Nazi persecution!(…)”

            E.g. there is no word of Gaza. Naturally. (And I am sure there never was anything comparable to even more remote current Third World massacres.)
            And the same highly respected scholars like Wolfgang Benz with whose books on WWII. I grew up would (or did) make the case against Sout Africa at the ICJ.
            That double standard is just insane.

            So we probably know what Speer ate for breakfast. But we are incapable to transfer scholarly insight where transfer would save Hundreds of Thousands of lives (if we apply my criticism beyond Gaza).

            And it is virtually impossible to address this madness in Germany officially.
            In any meaningful way.

            sry if this went off our topic.

  • AG

    (with friends like these…)

    “Julian Assange Excluded From Jailed Journalist Index Again”
    by Kevin Gosztola

    “The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) released its census report for 2023. Three hundred and twenty detained or imprisoned journalists were counted by the press freedom organization, as of December 1, 2023.”

    Assange is not in that report.

    They argue:
    ““After extensive research and consideration, CPJ chose not to list Assange as a journalist, in part because his role has just as often been as a source and because WikiLeaks does not generally perform as a news outlet with an editorial process,”
    “Yes, there have been many articles about our position on Assange. While you’re free to disagree, our position has been clear, transparent, and consistent for years.”

    “Indeed, CPJ’s position has been clear. The organization has been consistent in their exclusion of Assange from the press freedom organization’s annual census.
    It is debatable whether the organization has been transparent. To my knowledge, the “extensive research and consideration” that they did to decide that Assange is not a journalist has never been shared with the public.
    Also, it remains puzzling how a press freedom organization led primarily by journalists with experience in newsgathering can insist that Assange is a source. He has never held a security clearance or a position in the U.S. government that would give him access to classified documents.”

    CPJ makes no sense.
    Unless there are factors we don´t know about.

    again Gosztola:
    “I asked CPJ if they have come under pressure from officials within the U.S. government and that is why they will not acknowledge Assange is a jailed journalist. After all, if the Chinese or Russian governments detained someone like Assange, that person would almost certainly be included in CPJ’s index.

    The press freedom organization disregarded this portion of my request for comment.”

    In contrast:

    “Reporters Without Borders (RSF), has included Assange in their year-end round-up of detained journalists for three years in a row.”

    “Yet despite approving Deloire and Vincent for a visit before they traveled to the facility, the prison warden denied them access when they arrived. (Though for whatever reason, RSF does not list the U.K. or U.S. as having any detained journalists in their custody.)

    Assange is and will always be a detained journalist so long as the Justice Department pushes onward with this political case. It is too bad CPJ staff cannot get past their professional hangups and include him in their annual index. It would strengthen their opposition to the prosecution in a way that would give their advocacy even more clarity.”

    p.s. There is so much horror going on. So why make things even more difficult being such stickler to nonsense like the CPJ in a case so much beyond any doubt. That´s not professionalism. That´s moronic. And it hurts everyone. Including CPJ.

    • Courtenay Francis Raymond Barnett


      ” It would strengthen their opposition to the prosecution in a way that would give their advocacy even more clarity.”

      Indeed – but – political expediency. HUH?

    • Mr Mark Cutts

      ““After extensive research and consideration, CPJ chose not to list Assange as a journalist, in part because his role has just as often been as a source and because WikiLeaks does not generally perform as a news outlet with an editorial process,”

      Anyone who digs out a whopper of a story or revelation is a bit more than a “source”.

      Chelsea Manning was the “source”, Julian Assange was the journalist, and Wikileaks was the online newspaper.

      Cat stuck up tree is a story but it’s not a jailable offence. Not yet anyway.

      Does it depend on who you are grassing up? Definitely.

      By the way, all the Whistle blowers I’ve seen in the MSM on TV all have to appear anonymously for fear of ‘reprisals’. It looks like you only get jailed if you are un-anonymously whistleblowing.

      So, you are free to reveal something but only on condition of anonymity? Therefore if Julian had have put the info in Woman’s Weekly Letter Page and called himself Deirdre from Bradford he might have avoided jail?

      The truth is that it was the info that was revealed which showed the US and its politicians in their real light and the US Spooks and politicians didn’t like it. Showing up the US.

      They are continuing the ‘real light’ business currently and it’s all on TV and the internet. Right in our faces.