- This topic has 110 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 1 year, 6 months ago by SA.
January 22, 2021 at 22:50 #65714glenn_uk
Here’s something interesting :
The Anti-vaxxer movement is nothing new – the denialists have been at it for well over a century. What’s particularly instructive is how the playbook is being used by our in-house denialists right here, providing examples identical to those used to discourage uptake of vaccine against smallpox.January 23, 2021 at 00:56 #65721ET
That link leads to a 404 error.
I think this is the link.
Interesting article, shame that the historical lancet articles are not accessible, or at least I couldn’t get past the pay wall.January 23, 2021 at 01:54 #65725glenn_uk
ET: I am indebted, the link above was indeed wrong. I am unable to edit it, unfortunately.
Here’s another more recent link which does work from the same publication:
It mentions some freak in Wisconsin who destroyed vaccine because he had bought into conspiracy theories:
This particular freak was a pharmacist. Presumably a certain amount of intelligence and education is required for this position, and he must have realised the chances of getting caught were high.
What’s interesting with the new conspiracy theories is that the scope of the ‘plot’ is overwhelming – the people who believe in them (to a religious degree) have to imagine a conspiracy so large, it can hardly even be listed to its full extent.
I’ve tried to go through this with a number of denialists. Consider the sheer range of institutions that would have to be involved, in order to make every country in the world comply with unnecessary regulations, for a non-existent disease, that all medical institutions need to pretend is overwhelming them, down to funeral homes/ undertakers that need to fake a massive workload all of a sudden. Crisis actors in unprecedented numbers.
And this is all so Bill Gates can plant tiny chips into people controlled through 5G, or will alter our DNS in some unfavourable way, or will produce a mass die-off through starvation because of unnecessary measures – take your pick. It doesn’t matter that they are mutually exclusive, they will all be held in high regard by the denialists, and none will take the other to task over that obvious fact.January 23, 2021 at 03:20 #65729ET
Glenn, no need to be indebted. I apologise if my post comes across as a bit cold, it wasn’t meant to be. I found the piece thanks to you. I am still pondering it and trying to find the historical references which I think would be enlightening.
“I’ve tried to go through this with a number of denialists. Consider the sheer range of institutions that would have to be involved, in order to make every country in the world comply with unnecessary regulations, for a non-existent disease, that all medical institutions need to pretend is overwhelming them, down to funeral homes/ undertakers that need to fake a massive workload all of a sudden.”
Yet that is where we find ourselves in 2021. A significant proportion of people see this as “truth.” I have no idea how to combat the non-application of analysis. Bizarrely it reminds me of the sensless football hooliganism in the 80’s. People just want to fight and align themselves with a belief regardless of any integrity of that belief. It’s irrational. I don’t get it but I’ll keep trying to get it.January 23, 2021 at 11:56 #65752Dave
Its easy to understand. There are always extremes, Glen-UK says take whatever’s officially on offer and others are adverse to any synthetic drugs, just like others like processed foods and others won’t eat meat. But the majority, in the absence of virus terrorism, just apply proportionate commonsense and see no sense in suppressing healthy living and cheap therapeutics, to facilitate the disproportionate ‘vaccination’ of entire populations, with experimental drugs, in response to a respiratory virus with a mortality rate of less than 0.1%. Simples!January 23, 2021 at 13:12 #65759SA
“Its easy to understand.” Ignorance is bliss
“There are always extremes, Glen-UK says take whatever’s officially on offer and others are adverse to any synthetic drugs, ” Your definition of extremes is a bit skewed. The views expressed by Glen-UK, ET, Clark and myself are what the majority believe in and what scientists and Doctors and many other professionals believe in through direct experience, through research and through overwhelming evidence. So the views about the virus and its consequences are not extreme, it is your view that it is harmless that is extreme.
” If we are looking at information just like others like processed foods and others won’t eat meat.” When we look for information, we do not change the information, we just act on it for what we think is for our best. But what you are doing is distorting the information in a way that suits you, but this distortion does not change the underlying FACTS that there is a new virus out there killing people. Distortion of facts is not the same as interpreting or acting on them.
“But the majority, in the absence of virus terrorism,” What exactly does this mean? Nothing. The virus exists and we have to deal with it. You can do nothing until you get struck by it and it will then be too late. You can also not observe precautions and give it to others and spread illness and death. And that is the virus terrorism.
“.. just apply proportionate commonsense and see no sense in suppressing healthy living and cheap therapeutics,”
Nobody is abandoning these simple measures in favour of other medication just for the sake of it. Medication that works continue to be used. If you take the attitude of just natural treatment of disease, you would not be using penicillin, blood pressure tablets and many other medications that have been proven to prolong life and prevent disease.
“… to facilitate the disproportionate ‘vaccination’ of entire populations, with experimental drugs, ” The majority of scientists who know and have done lots of research have reached the conclusion that the actions taken are necessary, but you Dave, and many like you with little scientific background (correct me if I am wrong) think you know better. Apart from such beliefs that are not backed by any evidence whatsoever, why do you think anyone should believe what you say, instead of believing all these experts?
“…in response to a respiratory virus with a mortality rate of less than 0.1%.” The mortality rate from the virus is not 0.1%. To discuss the mortality rate from an ongoing pandemic is meaningless. Focusing only on a nebulous figure of an overall mortality rate misses the fact that the virus causes severe illness in at least 20% of those who get it, and who require hospital treatment which becomes swamped quickly. To understand more about fatality rate, please read this.
” Simples!” over simplisticJanuary 23, 2021 at 14:30 #65763Dave
You should only use quotation marks when quoting specific words and a liberty to include ET in the tag team, who has raised pertinent objections despite apprehension you will gang up on him as an antivaxxer.
Its extreme to promote a new experimental drug and withhold informed consent. There are respiratory viruses every year, and the NHS plans accordingly and can cope, unless incompetence or politics gets in the way, made worse if debate is suppressed by intimidation by BBC/MSM and entourage.
Healthy living is banned with unhealthy edicts to stay in doors and closing leisure centres/gyms. I’m not an expert and ironically that is my immunity to the professional herd instinct to follow the flow, albeit there are 1000s of experts who debunk the official narrative.
Any health service can get overwhelmed, unless they expand their facilities to cope, and after 9 months and billions spent, there’s no excuse for a lack of capacity, albeit the Nightingale hospitals remain empty.January 23, 2021 at 14:58 #65764SA
Do you think doctors and nurses grow on trees or are stacked up in shelves ready for use? The NHS was already short of staff and that was a political problem.
Also you don’t seem to recognise that this is unprecedented. Your denial that this is a serious problem is the reason why you can’t make any right decisions beyond that first faulty step.January 23, 2021 at 17:42 #65771ET
Dave, I haven’t raised objections (to the vaccines), I have noted reasons to be cautious. I posted a reply to your question as to why I thought vaccination was the only realistic way out of this short of just letting it rip. Those cautions remain, namely; It’s a new method of provoking an immune response that doesn’t have a track record, the vaccines were developed comparatively quickly and long term effects (if there are any) are not known and the trial data suggests they reduce your risk of developing symptomatic disease but reduction in transmissibility, conferring immunity or reducing serious disease have not been proven (yet). All of that should be on a consent form.
Nonetheless, given the enormity of the situation, on balance I think vaccines are the way forward. Lockdown measures could work if people were civic minded enough and would only be necessary for a short period of time but alas that is not the case. I give where I live as an example. The 2 initial cases on New Year’s Eve resulted n 52 Sars-Cov-2 cases identfied. With lockdown and people’s co-operation we have no new cases for 5 days now. If that continues to be the case our lockdown will be lifted and we’ll get back to normal. It can work if done correctly.
Dave, you continually point out the crude mortality rate in an effort to trivialise the numbers and the impact covid-19 is having in the UK and globally. Despite clearly explaining why that doesn’t describe the impact of Sars-Cov-2 (or indeed influenza virus) here and pointing out cold hard facts to you there is no comprehension demonstrated on your part. You have taken a position that you will not allow any argument no matter how cogent to shift you. I sincerely hope you never get into a position to influence health care provision.
There are respiratory viruses every year. There are Dave and the NHS endeavours to reduce their impact. Despite their efforts 2020 saw a 13% increase in deaths over the previous year and a similar increase over the 5 year average. That is an enormous increase, one which you totally discount and one which hasn’t happened since the last f***ing world war. At what point are you going to digest those figures?January 23, 2021 at 18:00 #65773glenn_uk
@ET: Not to worry at all about the above post, I did not consider it to be cold in the slightest.
ET: I sincerely hope you never get into a position to influence health care provision.
Unfortunately, you are going to be disappointed ET – did you see the link Dawg provided the other day? Here it is:
In it, the article quotes:
“[A parent] was shocked when he told her “the government has decided to vastly inflate the seriousness of coronavirus and launch a vastly disproportionate response which will make the cure worse than the disease.”
Cllr Durant said almost no children have suffered from or transmitted the virus and sent her a link to a website which claims the government has acted illegally by enforcing a lockdown.
Stacey told Time 107.5 she was “gobsmacked” by his response and had to read the email twice to make sure it was from him.
“It comes across as if he’s saying that everything we have done is totally pointless and is actually harming our children rather than keeping them safe,” Stacey said.
Our “Dave” is none other than conspiracy theorist, far right activist and all-round denialist, councilor David Durant. As it happens his constituency Rainham has the worst rates of Covid-19 in the country. Coincidence? I think not.
Ironic, is it not, that on a thread that references and details the denialists’ playbook, this Dave Durant is following that playbook to the letter.January 23, 2021 at 18:17 #65776ET
Glenn, I am aware of the previous posts from Dawg. However, I cannot personally verify for sure whether Dave is or isn’t that person. I respond to what is posted here and whether he is or isn’t that person doesn’t really matter (to me).January 23, 2021 at 18:28 #65778glenn_uk
Dave could verify it without difficulty – how about it, Dave? Are those your beatific features in my post’s link just above?
It all gets back to this death-cult that the likes of Dave are enthralled by. Pretend AIDS does not exist, so lots of people can get infected and die. Deny the efficacy of vaccines, and pretend deadly pandemics are harmless. Dismiss the planetary disaster of anthropogenic climate change. Remove regulation preventing pollution – heck, remove all regulations altogether!
I’m not actually joking about any of this. Libertarians, like Dave, want to remove all health and safety, food regulations, the lot. Heck, the market will decide who has the best products – AFTER a whole bunch of people have died from the “bad” products that will be weeded out of the market by consumer choice. Brilliant.January 23, 2021 at 18:40 #65780ET
Speaking of which Glenn. I have some Vit-D pendants I need to offload. They strengthen your immune system, it’s magic. You won’t know yourself. I made them from oily fish and infused them with the summer and winter solstice sun. Special discount for you Glenn at 100 quid, or 3 for 250.
Strengthen the immune system. That’s the answer. It’s amazing how thousands of years of medical innovation passed without thinking of that. How could we have missed that?January 23, 2021 at 19:17 #65783Dave
Being cautious is an objection and sensible when the policy is wholescale vaccination of entire populations of healthy people. And saying vaccination is the only realistic way out of this short of just letting it rip, is just silly, as it has an over 99% recovery rate. Mortality figures are the crude data, but difficult to manipulate.
Why do you need vaccines, when we have already reached herd immunity, as evidenced by the dropping of covid-19 in favour of a new novel virus, covid-20, which is why they want vaccination 24/7, because its already out of date!
The more testing the more Positive tests, but don’t be alarmed as nearly all those testing Positive are otherwise healthy, and the best way reduce the number of “cases” by 50%, is by reducing the number of tests by half, and then you’re back to normal, which is why they don’t do it.
You say “I sincerely hope you never get into a position to influence health care provision”! So you’re happy to replace our NHS with a Covid Health Service? And I think you’ll find the excess deaths this year were due to the lockdown in March, not the latest winter figures, which are the ones you need to digest to avoid alarmism.January 23, 2021 at 19:58 #65787glenn_uk
ET: “Strengthen the immune system. That’s the answer. It’s amazing how thousands of years of medical innovation passed without thinking of that. How could we have missed that? “
Ahh, that’s because the evil pharmaceutical companies have kept it SECRET! They’ve been doing it for thousands of years. Bill Gates put them up to it, back in ancient Greek times. Didn’t you know Gates is thousands of years old? That’s because he boosts his immune system, but he wants to keep it all to himself.
Utter tosh as usual, Dave. You got this “more tests = more cases” from the failed Trump, didn’t you? What both of you fail to understand is that it isn’t positive cases that put people in hospitals and the morgue. The virus is doing that. You know, the virus that you think is so harmless.
How about that GP Dr. Abdullah – did you know him? He died of Covid-19
Why don’t you tell his family it’s all a fake? One of your constituents, isn’t he? My, that was one lucky GP, having such a competent councilor telling everyone they had nothing to worry about.January 23, 2021 at 20:21 #65788SA
How has the lockdown in March caused extra deaths in March at the beginning of the lockdown? What patients are currently filling all the beds in hospitals and why are over a thousand people , yesterday 1800 dying e eryday?
The captchas are getting more and more difficult.January 24, 2021 at 01:58 #65829ET
“Being cautious is an objection”
No Dave, it isn’t. I object to you entering my house is different to you can come in but take your muddy boots off first. Proceed with caution, you know, what your driving instructor might say to you.
” policy is wholescale vaccination of entire populations of healthy people.”
All vaccination programs vaccinate healthy people, that being their raison d’etre. You know, to prevent people falling ill with the disease the vaccine protects against or more precisely to prevent people sufferring the more serious consequences of falling ill with a particular disease. Sub acute sclerosing panencephalitis, secondary pneumonia and other fatal consequences in the case of measles, deafness and sub-fertility in the case of mumps and congenital rubella syndrome with rubella. I could go on about TB, polio, smallpox, and others but you can do your own research. Oh wait.
“as it has an over 99% recovery rate”
And a 1% fatality rate by your figures, that’s 680,000 deaths in the UK alone. Not to mention the 40,000 covid hospital admissions, the 4,000 admitted daily nor the approx 8700 plus who died in the last 7 days. Oh, and there is the 30% readmissions and the x7 times higher rates of deaths in patients who were admitted with covid. And lest I forget, long covid.
“Why do you need vaccines, when we have already reached herd immunity, as evidenced by the dropping of covid-19 in favour of a new novel virus, covid-20”
That is risible Dave, please familiarise yourself with the concept of herd immunity. If we had herd immunity people wouldn’t be getting infected in such numbers. How does covid-19 and covid-20 (your term) in any way evidence anything?
Viruses mutate and that is a huge worry Dave. Your “just a bad flu” killed millions in 1918. The more people infected the more likely there will be a mutation. We cannot know if any mutation will be good or bad news.
“The more testing the more Positive tests, but don’t be alarmed as nearly all those testing Positive are otherwise healthy, and the best way reduce the number of “cases” by 50%, is by reducing the number of tests by half, and then you’re back to normal, which is why they don’t do it.”
OK, so why don’t we just close down all screening programs, breast cancer screening, cervical cancer screening, prostate cancer screening, colon cancer screening, diabetes screening and every other screening program. What you don’t know can’t hurt, innit?
“So you’re happy to replace our NHS with a Covid Health Service? “
No Dave, I wouldn’t be happy with that at all. Believe it or not Dave, other activities still occur. Women haven’t stopped getting pregnant and inconveniently going into labour since last March. Damn them anyway, surely they could just put it off till all this is over. Other inconvenient people have heart attacks, go into heart failure, fall and break their hips or wrists, attempt suicide and all the other things that the NHS has to deal with. Damned inconvenience.
As an aside Dave, you Brits (I am assuming you are British Dave, if I am wrong I apologise) should be damned proud of the world’s best concept for health care provision. It has its faults but as a concept, free at the point of service, it is brilliant. I really wish Ireland had followed the model. I really don’t think that Britian will allow the NHS to be plundered whatever their political persuasion.
“And I think you’ll find the excess deaths this year were due to the lockdown”
Will I? So, what would be the cause of those deaths? You have analysed the figures and you can point me to the excess numbers of other causes of death? Or have all the thousands of conscientious doctors conspired to falsify the death certificates? All the nurses, morticians, funeral directors, lab staff and families of the deceased all conspired to propagate this “great reset.” Show me PROOF Dave. Hard evidence. Numbers.
“not the latest winter figures, which are the ones you need to digest to avoid alarmism”
Alarmism? Do you think that a 13% increase in the death rates in less than 12 months isn’t alarming? What exactly would alarm you Dave? What threshold do deaths have to cross before you take an interest?January 24, 2021 at 03:51 #65840ET
Oh, and Dave have a look at medifacts by seven seas. It’s all you need.
I apologise to Craig and mods for posting a link to a vile ad. But OMG……..January 24, 2021 at 11:09 #65853SA
Many who wholeheartedly campaign for the health benefits of natural cures, including herbal medication and vitamin supplements do not realise the contradiction in their attitude. They often do so because drugs are an establishment thing and that big pharma makes a lot of money out of these ‘unnatural’ drugs. But the drugs that pharma produces are generally useful and have improved health, treat or prevent otherwise fatal diseases such as heart disease and cancer or diabetes, with of course some glaring exceptions, but at least they are carefully regulated and have to undergo rigorous testing and post marketing surveillance. The problem with big pharma is mainly profiteering and also sometimes exaggerating the benefits.
Unlike big pharma (it is of course quite possible that big pharma also has a stake in this under another guise), the vitamin and herbal medicine racket is totally unregulated. It is a thriving industry estimated to be worth $30 billion dollars in the US and 52% of Americans apparently take at least one vitamin supplement. There are no proven health benefits from taking these vitamin supplements if you eat a healthy diet, and targeted use of vitamins may be needed in certain conditions. Moreover these products, other than being unnecessary or useless, can sometimes be harmful. Here are two articles that explain how this is the case.
It is therefore a bit rich of the conspiracy theorists who are deny that the current virus is serious and that vaccines are dangerous, to also believe in taking lots of vitamins that are untested and of little use and for which they pay lots of money to another unregulated arm of ‘big pharma’.January 24, 2021 at 14:12 #65879Dave
Its impossible to be cautious when the plan is mass vaccinating many millions of people, come what may, before the vaccine is redundant due to herd immunity and therapeutics, which it already is. Hence why they downplay informed consent and denounce anyone who mentions side-effects as anti-vaxxers.
I was hoping you would be an honest debater, as I welcome new information, but you’re just point scoring to say 1% is 680,000 deaths. The mortality figure is less than 0.1% and the majority are dying with rather than from covid. I’m sure you know this, and I don’t think you’re claiming its 1% either, so why do it?
And with such a small risk, is it the best policy to vaccinate everyone, rather that particular groups, with informed consent, knowing many will refuse for an array of reasons. Mentioning other illnesses confuses the matter, the question is are lockdowns and mass vaccinations a proportionate response, as a misallocation of resources will impact on other health care.
And your faith in the politicians responsible for this medical and economic devastation, will save the NHS is naive, as once its time to ‘pay the money back’, the NHS will be privatised to the drug cartels and donors to save it.
I assume your not familiar with the PCR test which records many false positives compared to the lateral flow test, which shows otherwise healthy people to be positive, triggering the numbers needed for more lockdowns and restrictions. They know about the false positives, but keep them in the official figures, to manipulate/scaremonger public opinion.
The early deaths were going down, until immediately after lockdown, when you got the March/April spike, followed by few deaths until the rise in mortality as expected in the winter months. The deaths now are about same as 5 year average, it was the deaths during the spike, due to government measures at the time, that accounts for the above average excess figures for last year, which was subject to a select health committee report damming government policy regarding decanting NHS patients into care homes. https://lockdownsceptics.org/
There are many alarming things, including all the figures for the health and economic harm being caused by a policy you appear to support.January 24, 2021 at 17:14 #65892glenn_uk
You keep repeating the same nonsense, Dave.
It’s all been addressed many times, you have no sensible comeback, yet you still repeat the original failed arguments.
What are you, lazy? Can’t remember? Or just deceitful.January 24, 2021 at 19:48 #65907Clark
Lateral flow tests.
A friend of mine works in a care home kitchen. One of his jobs involves seeing the residents’ food orders for each meal. He tells me that meals have dropped from around 60 to around 40 since Christmas, as residents fall ill and die. Many residents who were up and about and chatty are now too ill to leave their beds.
All staff are tested daily by lateral flow test. Staff have been complaining of covid symptoms, but management tell them to keep working unless their lateral flow test shows positive. They don’t want to come in; they’re calling the care home “a covid cess-pit”.
My friend had covid symptoms but the lateral flow test came back negative each morning and he was instructed to keep working. After nearly a week a PCR swab test came back positive. Management turned on him for putting staff and residents at risk.
– – – – – – –
Another friend tells me that a care home in his town has had to close because so many of its residents have died of covid that it is no longer economically viable.
– – – – – – –
Israel has closed Ben Gurion airport to all arrivals and departures. Even those making aliyah – the “Jewish Right of Return to the Homeland” – are denied entry, the first time since the establishment of Israel in 1948.January 24, 2021 at 19:51 #65908Clark
It is incredible to see an elected representative, someone who has supposedly committed himself to serving his electorate, set himself above reality itself. This epitomises what is wrong with politics.January 24, 2021 at 20:15 #65911ET
I see the DVLA in Swansea had significant issues with covid in the work place. Link
“A complaint received by Public Health Wales’s outbreak control team claims DVLA workers were asked to turn off their test-and-trace apps “so that their phones do not ping.”
Through personal testimony from a friend I have learned that community nurses in a certain part of the UK have also been told to turn off their contact tracing apps whilst at work.
The mind boggles.
Meanwhile, we have had no new cases for 6 days now. Effective government, effective border controls and a willing civic minded public (mostly). Two people have been jailed for breaking restrictions.January 24, 2021 at 20:35 #65913ET
Extensive clinical evaluation from Public Health England and the University of Oxford show Lateral Flow Tests are accurate and sensitive enough to be used in the community, including for asymptomatic people.
“Q17. Will this testing regime remove the need for staff who have been exposed to a positive Covid-19 case to self-isolate?
No. Government self-solation advice should be followed at all times. This test does not remove the need to self-isolate.”
Point the above out to your friend Clark so he can point it out to his employers.January 25, 2021 at 09:51 #65950SA
Those who go on about overall mortality rates miss a very important point. The age related mortality rates are
Age – Mortality Rate (%)
- 80+ year old – 14.8
- 70-79 years old – 8.0
- 60-69 years old – 3.6
- 50-59 years old – 1.3
- 40-49 years old – 0.4
- 10-39 years old – 0.2
- 0-9 years old – no fatalities*
So the mortality rate is above 1% even for those who are 50-59 year old.January 25, 2021 at 10:43 #65953Clark
Hmmm… From ET’s link:
– “Forty different lateral flow devices were put forward, of which nine met the criteria to continue to full evaluation. Six made it to the third phase, and the Innova SARS-CoV-2 Antigen Rapid Qualitative Test, the test being used in the Liverpool pilot, is nearing completion of the four-stage process.”
Maybe the care home is using a system that didn’t even make it to evaluation. The following article was written since the above clinical evaluation was completed:
– Covid-19: government must urgently rethink lateral flow test roll out
– Plans to widen roll out risk serious harm
– BMJ Opinion – January 12, 2021
– “In the Liverpool pilot study, 60% (95% CI 48% to 71%) of infected symptomless people went undetected, including 33% (19% to 50%) of those with high viral loads who are at highest risk of infecting others.  Among students in Birmingham, only 3% (1% to 16%) of those who would have tested positive on PCR were detected. ”
There seems to be plenty of wiggle-room for employers desperate to keep a business afloat, and care homes are highly threatened at present. People have a tendency to latch onto reassuring results, and then there’s the “not my fault” urge; “we used the tests in good faith”.
The problem underlying all of this is the current economic system that sets everyone and every business into mortal competition with their peers – and I do mean mortal; if you run out of money you lose access to food, fuel and shelter.
But in any sensible assessment, the people are the economy, and we all share our primary common interests against the virus. In many cases covid-19 is making the system’s inherent combat more desperate, more intense. Just like the climate and ecological crisis, people and organisations in competition can become each other’s own worst enemies, making problems many times worse than needs be.January 25, 2021 at 10:57 #65958Dave
“So the mortality rate is above 1% even for those who are 50-59 year old”.
At last: Correct and a big jump thereafter.
And so a proportionate health policy would respond accordingly, action to protect those at risk. The failure to do so is because the government is using virus terrorism to pursuing different political objectives, to remove democracy (the populist revolt), to wreck the health and economy of Britain to entrench the powers and privilege of the ruling 1%. It looks like they will cancel the May 2021 elections too.
Those who believe the current policy is to protect the vulnerable elderly, ignore the years of underfunding for adult social care, ignore the initial elderly deaths due to the lockdown, to provide the numbers to fuel a panic, and must think nothing odd about how billions have miraculously been found to fund PPE contracts for government family and friends and suppress therapeutics.January 25, 2021 at 12:06 #65975SA
According to ONS ( see link below) there has not been the large number of deaths in care homes in the second wave as in the first.
You may well like to look at the overall figures of excess deaths for 2020 in this report and see that about 80,000 extra deaths have occurred which is about 14% increase in deaths over the average of the last 5 years.
I think you would agree that if for example you were told that there was a 14% increase in the deaths due to say road traffic accidents, that there will be a huge outcry wouldn’t you? But of course you don’t seem to think that those above a certain age need to be saved.
Sheltering a part of the community is a temporary measure and would rely on a very hypothetical situation where socially we form self contained silos with no interconnections. In real life, those above 70 will have families and grandchildren who go to schools and so on. So you want to condemn those above a certain age to a life of solitude.
You also, like a lot of posters who use false low figures for mortality, seem to ignore that illness due to the virus is also considerable and loads the health system. You keep on repeating that this is because there is not enough funding for the NHS but as I pointed earlier, training of doctors and nurses just doesn’t happen overnight and you can’t build a health service to cope with all emergencies, you need to have a better way of managing and dealing quickly with pandemics. But since you start with the firm knowledge based on nothing, that this is not a dangerous pandemic, then I am afraid all the rest of your deductions are worthless.January 25, 2021 at 12:39 #65983Dave
You share a remarkable lack of self awareness or dishonesty as those who say their support for the inhumane and counter-productive lockdowns is to save lives, when they clearly haven’t stopped people dying, and have made things far worse, “but of course you don’t seem to think this matters”. Do you deny effective therapeutics are available to treat this illness?
For years the NHS policy has been to reduce bed numbers and operate at capacity, and anticipate for extra capacity during the winter months. The problems this year are not due to a lack of capacity, but a mismanagement of resources and virus for political reasons and Labour Party support for this shows they have forsaken the many for the few.January 25, 2021 at 13:07 #65985ET
“Do you deny effective therapeutics are available to treat this illness?”
Yes, categorically so. There are no specifc treatments. (apart perhaps from immunoglobulin treatments which remain experimental)
“You share a remarkable lack of self awareness or dishonesty as those who say their support for the inhumane and counter-productive lockdowns is to save lives, when they clearly haven’t stopped people dying, and have made things far worse,”
That is your opinon Dave. My opinion is that there would have been far more deaths and morbidity if nothing had been done. Also, I thnk people would have self imposed lockdown type measures, they’d have behaved in a manner likely to reduce their risk.
“For years the NHS policy has been to reduce bed numbers and operate at capacity, and anticipate for extra capacity during the winter months.”
“think nothing odd about how billions have miraculously been found to fund PPE contracts for government family and friends”
That this happened is corrupt. Not so much that the money was found (presumably by borrowing) and PPE was required, but how and to whom the contracts were awarded.
A virus is a virus Dave. Regardless of politics.January 25, 2021 at 13:16 #65987SA
I have tried hard to refrain from name calling but since you accuse me of dishonesty I would like to politely return the compliment and say that it is you who is deceitful.
Best wishes.January 25, 2021 at 13:31 #65988SA
Do you know what happens when people are admitted to ITU? Do you know what it is like to be gasping for breath? Do you think these are trivial matters? Are you implying that people are dying because of lockdown causing these symptoms, or do you think that those writing death certificates are so dishonest that they write cause of death according to government instructions?January 25, 2021 at 14:15 #65989Pigeon English
If there were no lock downs and other measures, the number of deaths would be much higher.
Estimates are that only 10% of population have had Covid and we have 100.000 dead.January 25, 2021 at 14:23 #65990Pigeon English
BTW according to monitoring site euromomo.eu England had Extraordinary high excess deaths in week 1 and 2.
Is that again coincidence?January 25, 2021 at 16:21 #66000Dave
“if nothing had been done”.
A straw man as encouraging voluntary common sense, focussed health care and therapeutics is doing something proportionate and combined with theraputics, effective. Whereas closing the NHS and economy is disproportionate and causes its own harms.January 25, 2021 at 17:24 #66005SA
“A straw man as encouraging voluntary common sense, focussed health care and therapeutics is doing something.”
That is not only a strawman, but a very wishy washy one at that. What exactly do you mean by focused health care and voluntary common sense? Also you seem to ignore my questions above, any guess why?January 25, 2021 at 18:59 #66020Dave
“Also you seem to ignore my questions above, any guess why”?
Because you’re shroud waving.January 25, 2021 at 19:02 #66021Dave
“Do you deny effective therapeutics are available to treat this illness?
Yes, categorically so. There are no specific treatments. (apart perhaps from immunoglobulin treatments which remain experimental)”
Y.O. Tech Lab – Is this True? “Dr Simone Gold – The truth about the CV 19 vaccine” (YouTube, 56m 08s)January 25, 2021 at 19:30 #66023SA
I am not shroud waving. You have no answer. Be honest.