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ET and MN
Many East Europeans were pleased to join the EU in belief that the EU will curtail our bigots and impose more just governance. For example “Independent Judiciary”. To my understanding Poland’s ruling party is appointing judges close to their agenda.
Claim that we have a common identity clashing with Western identity and values is bizarre IMO. Most of my values are closer to my British friends or Danish etc. than to some of my (bigot) compatriots.
That is why I am not a big fan of nationalism, so called patriotism. Yes nations have some common traditions but we the people are so different.
While living in London I heard so much about “British values” that I start asking/annoying my friends to tell me more about it so I can integrate better and adapt. They could not mention one that it wasn’t either my value or some random European country having the same values.
MN you are welcome to tell me what makes Brits so different(values) from the rest of us.
MN
if you believe that you have more in common/values with the Queen than some East European in B&Q you are deluded.
Does Poland represent East Europe?
Some of us East Europeans are Catholic/Orthodox/Atheist.
Some of us are anything in between Nazis and Commies. (So are you Brits.)
Does the Bulgarians/Slovenians?/Hungarians etc. have the same identity as Polish people?
FPTP is a British value. Winners take it all.
A point well made PE
I think there is a movement to subvert British values.
When I was growing up you would be put in prison for being a homosexual, now it is normal behaviour.
When I was growing up about half the population went to church, now only a few go to church. Far more Moslems go to their places of worship in Britain than do British people go to their places of worship.
Almost all adults were married and only with children of that marriage, living together, that is no longer normal.
We had people hunting foxes on horseback, now no longer legal. You could smoke in public houses, now no longer legal.
Most of our services were provided by the state, mostly no longer provided by the state.
When I was growing up, you just went to the Post Office and handed over five shillings to get your shotgun license, now no longer the case.
Virtually since we joined the Common Market our values have been removed from us, so as to almost be aliens in our own land.
We have forgotten who we are?Michael, most of the whole planet has moved on in those aspects of society. Homosexuality has been around since the first testament, are you seriously saying it should be illegal? Society moves on, at the start of the industrial revolution it was deemed ok to lower 6 yo boys into mines where adults couldn’t fit by ropes. C’mon it isn’t just the EU that has caused this. Legalised divorce, contraception, internet, etc etc has happened the world over.
There are no real British or Irish or any other nationality values but there are human values. There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you are from to an extent as long as it doesn’t lead you to criticise others’ faults whilst at the same time turning a blind eye to the same faults in your own country. Blind nationalism or patriotism is idiotic.
I agree with you on utilities, it’s time they were re-nationalised.
PE & ET I think I am agreeing with PE, that it is probably now pointless to assume many people now what British Values are.
I grew up in an unusually stable period, just after the war, you knew your place and were more or less satisfied. Hardly anybody we knew had much more than us, there seemed to be a commonality, equality. Other than the Poles, there were very, very few people from places other than the British Isles, were we lived.
We had only a coal fire in the living room, no other heating, it was often very cold.
No telephone, no T.V. no fridge, no freezer, no modern equipment. I am sure my mother would have desired modern stuff, had she been able to get it. One thing we did not have was fat people, almost nobody was fat.
So a much fitter, more austere but more stable world for us. Almost no cars. Lots of huge old trees, everywhere.
I suppose then we did understand British Values, I remember we could not play outside on a Sunday because it was the day of rest, that was annoying.Michael
If you miss imprisoning homosexuals and fox hunting than you are Alien in modern world and not only in your country.
Michael
I believe you misunderstood my point. What I was trying to say is as ET wrote
“There are no real British or Irish or any other nationality values but there are human values”
PE I did understand your point, I think.
I have never incarcerated a homosexual and I do not ride to hounds, I have never killed a fox/otter/beaver or badger.
Values probably change over time but what we now have is the British Values being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.
In the past if you went to another country you have to accept their values. Now we the natives of Britain apparently have to accept the values of others.
The Baltic states as well as Poland are rushing to fit razor fences and guard them with troops.
Poland is expecting shooting soon to and from Belarus.“we now have is the British Values being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.”
In what way Michael? Exactly what “British Values” have been trashed? British people campaigned to stop the needless cruelty that was fox hunting. It was entirely home grown. British people campaigned for the recognition that homosexual people have a right not to be discriminated against and against the silliness in the modern era of jailing people for their sexuality. You are doing your utmost to conflate changing societal norms with immigration without saying “it’s all bloody johnny foreigners fault.”
British politicians elected by British people have passed all the relevant legislation. I hardly think that most immigrants from war torn parts of the world give a flying fuck about fox hunting. They just want to be safe. You want to blame everything on “other people” and take zero responsibility for anything yourself. Britian, and any other country, is in the place it’s in because of the politicians that were voted in by eligible-to-vote citizens.
ET, I am in the place I want to be, that is the place I was born.
Looks like Eastern Europe is getting ready for an invasion.
What the Poles do not want is to be swamped by outsiders.
According to what I just heard on the News, NATO and the E.U. will now be backing Poland to stop the migrants entering the E.U. from Belarus.
Belarus is asking Russia to protect Belarus.
How did these migrants ( they say many are Kurds from Iraq) get in to Belarus, some are saying, they flew in from Turkey.
That would suggest there is trouble being caused by both Belarus and TurkeyEvading the direct question you were asked again MN. You are dissembling.
“we now have is the British Values being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.”
In what way Michael? Exactly what “British Values” have been trashed?
That question has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in Belarus, Turkey or anywhere else.
Human values evolve with time. The ‘British values’ of the past few centuries are far removed from those of today. In my opinion Britain has been successful because of this evolution and adoption of some of the best of these values, but of course remain far from perfect.
You will not try to sell me that the ‘hostile environment’ of Priti Patel are ‘British values’. Far from it. The best are tolerance, acceptance of past mistakes multiculturalism and leading with some innovations. I always marvel how much more advanced we are than say France in some aspects of legislation and observance of such things as health and safety.
One of the worst side effects of Brexit is that we have lost this leadership of steering Europe towards these processes, and in fact are enacting a reversal of many of the innovative ‘British values’ that have been gained over the last two centuries.
ET, the title of this conversation is “Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union”
that is what I am trying to think about. If the U.K. had not voted for Brexit, we presumably would be rushing to Poland to help the Poles? We certainly helped the Poles during and just after the war, I grew up with some of them.
Of course I understand that over time, moral values change. We no longer are required to practise archery, each week.
We are no longer expected to go to church, each week. People no longer have to be quiet and modest on a Sunday. We no longer have the death penalty. We no longer have an empire. We no longer have conscription.But over the last half century we have been invaded.
I am not saying this is all bad, most has probably been beneficial.
On Friday I was in A&E with broken ribs and a nicked lung, the consultant was an Indian chap, he told me, he had been in the same job for 28 years. He could not have been more caring, he even rang me at home, Sunday night, to check on me and badger me to contact my G.P. service on Monday.
The vast majority of people who come to the U.K. do so because they want a good life and they do their best to fit in.But hundreds of thousands, do not want to fit in. They want us to change and their pressure is relentless.
They make me quite uncomfortable, I fear for our future, that we will be forced to lose our identity.FRANCE24
“Over the last 24 hours, police have detained over 50 people near Bialowieza after they illegally crossed the border,” Tomasz Krupa, spokesman for the Podlaskie regional police, told AFP, explaining that two separate groups of migrants were involved, some of whom had evaded detention.
“The situation is not calm,” Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak told Polish Radio on Wednesday, adding that smaller groups of migrants were now attempting to breach the border of the EU and NATO member.”
The government of Poland is getting ready to ask NATO to help, saying that they “feel” Mr. Putin is behind this mass influx of Asian Migrants into Belarus.
I suppose, what this does show that there is almost nothing that can be done to protect the borders of the E.U. No Middle East people just turn up on the shore of the English Channel, E.U. countries have let them through, as they know they want to get to the U.K. Whatever your views on human rights, it ought to be possible to consider the rights of the indigenous Europeans, to be allowed a view, that they do not to be swamped by people from outside.
If you do not let that view be heard, you will have revolution.
The people of the Baltic States and of Poland and Hungary and Austria and Switzerland, mostly, do not want this invasion.
What to do about it, is the next question, it does seem that soon NATO will be drawn in.“ET, the title of this conversation is “Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union”
MN, in multiple posts in this thread YOU made you brought up “British Values” and how YOU believe those damned immigrants are undermining “British Values.” Now you are using the term “invasion.” There are no such “British values” any more than there are Irish, French, German, American or any other nationalised values. If an Irish person brought up the spectre of “Irish Values” I’d be just as sceptical and scoffing because I know that they and you cannot name a single value concept that can be said to be peculiarly nationalised. It’s a rhetorical political tool that appeals to the worst kind of patriotism. Similar and used in the same way as “ordinary working people’s values,” “Christian (or insert religion here) values” and many other examples.
I have asked you to cite any “British value” and cite a “British Value being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.” You won’t because you cannot, you know there are none such. Yet here you are doing your damnedest to stoke anti-immigrant sentiment.
Michael
“ET, the title of this conversation is “Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union” that is what I am trying to think about””.
And then you go talking about different issues.
So what values do Eastern Europeans struggle to adjust in EU? Please don’t say homophobia and racism!!!
And what British values were trashed by EU citizen migration to UK?
Polish are very religious and by anecdotal evidence they are filling Irish churches ?.
This article in CP is pertinent to the current discusssion.
CounterPunch: Xenophobic Attitudes in France, Sweden, Germany, and Poland – by Thomas Klikauer and Meg Young (10 Nov 2021)
I see MN has now resorted to terms such as invasion and swamped. Ah the pure values are being adulterated by the impure foreigners.
If the wishes of indigenous Europeans are not to even be considered, then goodbye democracy, for it will no longer have any meaning. Scream all you want about human rights, let them come.
This, you turkeys, is why Brexit was voted for. People have had enough of the invasions, of values being imposed from elsewhere.
Yes, modest immigration of people that are wanted and needed but the indigenous populous do not want to be swamped.
Just because the Remainers want to move from country to country to country and see no borders, that is not how the majority see it, it is not how the majority want it.
The majority may not be as loud as University Educated Elites but does that mean their voice should not be heard at the ballot box. If you educated people know you are right and the lesser mortals are wrong, then revolution will be coming or total subservience to the woke. Then the flood doors will be broken for good.Michael, can you answer what values were destroyed by EU migration!!!!!!!!!
What are the values that EU migrants wanted to impose?
PE, The short answer is no.
As others have said it is quite difficult to be precise.
If you have always lived in an area with not much influx, then you feel your area is being swamped, maybe you feel that is wrong.
However if during the same time scale, the last half century, you lived in an area, where hardly any new people came in, I doubt you would be bothered.
So, I agree, it is more about personal perception.But if you were in the second world war, as was my father, your war, after in was over and you moved home, might have been a very, very different war from others.
One of my great uncles was put in a lobster pot for six weeks by the Japanese, he survived, after a lot of his bowels were removed. How do you compare that?
I doubt that uncle was accepting of Japanese.“As others have said it is quite difficult to be precise.”
That is because they don’t exist. Now you bring up the second world war. You didn’t fight in it Michael, you were not there. Aside from the very few WW2 veterans still alive neither were the rest of the planet’s population.
“The majority may not be as loud as University Educated Elites…………..”
What other ridiculous tropes will you bring up Michael? “British values,” WW2, University Educated Elites, wokeness, Invasion, swamped……………football is coming home?
You have your views Michael, or rather, those of the Express. Stick to them and ensure you don’t get exposed to anything that might challange them. As I have asked before, just why in hell are you reading Craig Murray’s blog if not that you don’t agree with the Express’ views?
ET, PE
I am not sure I was the first (on this conversation) to mention British Values.
I know it is a phrase dangled out by the likes of government ministers, when they try to give a miasma,
that we are all in it together.
I was trying to agree, that maybe, now, it would be very difficult, to write down a list of British Values.
Values are changed, everytime you get innundated/invaded.
Going back to the time of the last Storegga Slide, about 8,200 years ago, in essence, that was mostly the end of the Mesolithic.
The people who lived in and around the North Sea ( perhaps half of all people in Europe at that time), got innundated, drowned, their ways of life lost. Newcommers came from the Fertile Crescent bringing Agriculture.
The world Agriculture, includes culture. Implying a totally different way of life, no longer the free and easy life of marsh boating/fishing catching eels and goose eggs. Never ending hard graft, often under command.
Each invasion since, even if the locals were not killed, was a new, enforced culture change, a new subservience to the incommers.I understand that you are racist and xenophobe and that is how you are. But what annoys me is your justification with meaningless slogans and your intellectual dishonesty.
Couple of examples
– your great uncle in lobster pot by the Japanese and yet you hate China
– you use Regime so much and yet you never mention Corruption in UK politics.
– Royal Navy and British Empire imposing your values in the past and now It’s not a problem for you
– Being part of EU bad but Nato good
– Taiwan is in theory Chinese territory but you object to Chinese planes flying close to it and you approve of the Royal Navy patrolling there
– In the 70’s you went to West Indies to lure labour to come to Britain.
– Many in the world were British subjects and they took the opportunity to go to the “Motherland”?
