Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union


Home Forums Discussion Forum Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 61 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #80509 Reply
    michael norton

    There are increasing expressions of concern of new acquisition countries struggling to come to terms with an apparent loss of sovereignty.

    Poland is starting to be daily fined by the E.U. because they wish to tread a different road.

    #80609 Reply
    Clark

    What is Poland being fined for?

    #80626 Reply
    michael norton

    I am not exactly certain but the gist of it is, the Polish Government wish to be the only authority who can offer a job as a judge and be the only authority who can take that job as a judge, away.
    I probably have over simplified.
    But essentially Poland wants to be Supreme in the control of its laws, Poland can not be Supreme over its laws if the E.U. claim higher authority.
    So an impasse is reached.
    As the E.U. imagines itself to be the Supreme Authority over Poland, they are trying to fine Poland.
    Poland will not pay a fine to be Supreme in its own land.
    Some are saying this could end with Poland leaving the E.U.
    Hungary and Slovakia are backing Poland against the E.U.

    #80633 Reply
    michael norton

    The new Polland – Belarus razor-wire-wall may also be part of the annoyance between Poland and the E.U.
    BBC

    “Poland has responded to the influx of migrants by building a razor-wire-fence and sending thousands of troops to secure it. Poland has been criticised for pushing back migrants and refugees at the border. Poland has imposed a state of emergency, effectively banning journalists and aid workers from accessing the border. Last week, Poland was among 10 member states that asked the E.U. to pay for “barriers” to block migrants from entering. But E.U. chief Ursula von der Leyen refused.”

    It seems the E.U. have fallen out of love with Poland. For the E.U. Poland was the BIG Success of the Eastern European acquisition states, almost the only country to have continual growth. Elon Musk chose his site for his Giggafactory to the South East of Berlin, as it is on the main railway line to Silesia, where the Copper and Nickel comes from.
    Many keen Polish workers will work in his factory, Germans now not so keen to do robot work.

    #80651 Reply
    Clark

    Thanks for explaining. I may look this up to see what is happening. Crisis seems to be everywhere.

    #80681 Reply
    michael norton

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1513950/EU-news-Poland-coal-production-fine-employment-morawiecki-latest-vn
    Quote from Poland’s coal producing area “Here for example 3,000 or 4,000 people would lose their jobs in the coal mine and another 2,000 in the power plant.”
    European Union fines Poland €500,000 (£422,447) daily until they shut their coal mine.

    There will soon come a time when the majority of people left living in Poland will say enough is enough, if you keep bullying us we will leave the E.U. You can stick your fines where the sun don’t shine! Many young people have already depopulated Poland by moving to other countries.
    Yet Poland is unique among European nations as not having a recession in 30 years.

    #80706 Reply
    ET

    “Earlier this year, the Czech Republic filed a lawsuit against Poland saying the Turów mine, close to the Czech border, drains groundwater from surrounding areas, expressing concerns about its environmental impact. The ECJ ordered Poland to stop its extraction activities at the mine but the country’s government ignored the order. The Czech Republic asked the ECJ to impose a daily penalty of €5 million but last month the court said Poland must pay €500,000 a day for as long as the mine continues to extract.”

    “The court ruled that the previous 2026 license for Turow had infringed EU laws because it was granted without an environmental assessment.”

    “This ruling is a welcome reprieve for people living on the front line of this crisis, who have been forced to live with the mine gulping their drinking water and undercutting their houses.”

    “The rules are the same for everyone, and they are there to protect everyone.”/p>

    In January, the German city of Zittau, just across the border from Turow, also took Poland to the same court on the same grounds. The Czech government filed the claim after talks with Warsaw were inconclusive.

    So, MN, I don’t think it quite the EU bullying that the hateful express, erm, expresses(?). Both Germany and Czech Republic have tried to negotiate with Poland regarding the lignite Turów mine, which borders both countries, to no avail and consequently brought a case to the Court of Justice of the European Union which was specifically set up for such disputes in order to interpret EU law to make sure it is applied in the same way in all EU countries, and settles legal disputes between national governments and EU institutions. BY signing the treaties all 3 countries agreed to that. Also, the order that Poland is refusing to comply with was for a temporary halt to the extension of mining activities until an environmental assessment was done. If you want to build anything in the UK of any size environmental assessments must be carried out for good reasons.

    I don’t know to what extent either party in this dispute is right or wrong in terms of the extent or even existence of interference with the groundwater supplies in nearby German or Czech villages and towns but surely if they are claiming that there is it merits consideration and assessment? If it were the UK it would have already been done.

    The Court of Justice of the European Union has supremacy in law in EU countries only in areas in which the EU treaties gave the EU competencies or powers to make law. The European Union is only competent to act within the scope of the powers allocated to it (by the treaties).

    In this case it makes sense. If business can sell into any EU country it makes sense that they have to comply on an equal footing with any regulation of standards or otherwise.

    #80713 Reply
    michael norton

    ET, yes you are correct.
    Personally I do not think ground water should be contaminated.
    Personally I think it is a good idea to greatly reduce our interest in Coal.

    For all my life I have known Polish people and mostly got on very well, with them but they can be stubborn.
    They are not readily bullied |¦| or swayed, they know their own minds.

    They may be coming to a point in time, in which they come to understand, as has the U.K., that the E.U. is a FAT Controller, who does not give a shit about what people in Poland think or want.
    I am not saying this point has yet been reached but it is quickly getting nearer.

    #80758 Reply
    ET

    Michael, if the UK enters into a trade agreement with another country they will agree to abide by certain rules and regulations set out within the trade agreement. An arrangement will be agreed within the agreement to deal with any disputes that arise relating to that trade agreement and its rules. They may agree that disputes are initially referred to either country’s legal systems but ultimately there will also be a final court or arbitation panel to which parties in a dispute can appeal, one which is outside of and has supremacy over either country’s legal system (only in relation to the trade agreement) and which will rule on any final binding decision. There is no getting away from some loss of “sovereignty” in such agreements. Every trade agreement the UK makes with any other country will be the same. How is that different from the EU?

    If I recall correctly, the TTIP, which Trump scuttled by withdrawing the USA from it had provisions for such non-public extra-national courts of arbitration. At least the CJEU is public.

    In the case of the Polish mine you cited, how would such a dispute have been settled in the past? Are so vehemently anti-EU Michael that you don’t or won’t see any reasonableness in the mechanism for arbitrating a dispute such as this one? Remember that all three parties involved agreed to this set-up in a formal treaty. Don’t you think the there is a lot of unreasonable anti-EU bias in the daily express report you cited? I read the report you linked!

    #80769 Reply
    michael norton

    I guess there is a certain perception of climate hypocrisy among the Elite of the E.U.

    Ursula, The President of the European Commission has reportedly flown aboard a private jet on 18 out of her 34 official trips since taking up office in December 2019. Among those trips was reportedly a brief, 31-mile flight from Vienna to Bratislava, which would have taken just over an hour by train. The E.U. official has now been accused of contributing to a “climate disaster”, despite her commitments to slashing planet-warming greenhouse emissions across Europe.

    Then there is the whole shebang transiting between Strasbourg and Brussels, quite often, known as “The Gravy Train”.

    What I do not think the peasants of Europe want is to be lectured to by Ursula or Emmanuel, these persons who live in gilded cages talking down to ordinary people, when they themselves have no intention of cutting back on anything, at all.

    #80778 Reply
    ET

    None of that post addresses any of my previous post. Stop dissembling Michael and answer the questions asked.

    I see Boris also got to Glasgow and will return by private jet. I don’t think anyone should reasonably expect either the British Prime Minister or other high profile public figures to travel in a way that leaves them unsecured and easy targets. C’mon. I can see the hypocrisy in it, for sure, but equally I can see security teams strongly advising against it.

    #80780 Reply
    michael norton

    There is a lot of bullying and a lot of talking down to lesser people and lesser states in the Land of Europe.
    Look how the shameless Germans treated the Greeks, they sawed the legs from under them.
    Now, as Greece is about to become a Hydrocarbon super power the Germans will be licking Greek arses.
    The German economy has stalled, it is riven by indecision, look how they messed about, chopping and changing with the new Berlin Airport. It probably could not have been more chaotic.
    Some econutters are putting things in the way of Elon Musk in Berlin.
    They have become too warm, soft and fluffy in the E.U. greatcoat

    #80812 Reply
    Clark

    Let’s all blame and shame. As we all argue over whose fault it isn’t, our world can burn.

    After all, no one should care that our only home burns so long as it was someone else’s fault! It’s important to get our priorities right; we all know God was bluffing when he said he could read our hearts, we each need some plausible excuses when we turn up at the Pearly Gates. It was them not us, it was him not me.

    But the children will still be on Earth, coping with the fire we lit.

    #80815 Reply
    michael norton

    Well I am very keen on lizards and snakes and newts and bogs.
    I spend some of my time trying to restore bogs.

    But some people in Germany are using lizards as their excuse to hinder Elon Musk from getting on with his battery car plant in Grunheide. What is more important?
    All lizards will not be wiped out.
    However if Germany is to wean off Coal, it probably does need battery tech.

    #80824 Reply
    ET

    You are still evading the specific questions I asked you Michael. What has the new Berlin airport got to do with how the EU works? Nothing. I would point out how long the third runway at Heathrow has been going on. That is internal politics which has nothing to do with how the EU is formulated.

    Will you be so vociferous about the UK’s loss of sovereignty when or if they sign a trade agreement with USA? Do you think the daily express accurately reported on the Turow mine dispute or did they dress the article with deliberate anti-EU bias? Do you still think the EU tried to ban bent bananas? 😀

    #80837 Reply
    michael norton

    Hi ET.
    Well, as you might expect, the Daily Express writes that everything Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg and Liz Truss do is fantastic. They also write that almost everything that Emmanuel and Ursula do is aggression against Dear Old Blighty.
    You have to take it all with a pinch of salt. The Polish Government are set against the E.U. Yet Poland has done quite well out of membership of the E.U. Possibly they were under the yoke of the Germans, then under the yoke of the Russians.
    Maybe they would have done better to remain Independent. You are of course correct ET that if they wish to stay within the warmth of the comfort blanket of the ET, the MUST do as they are told. The U.K. has offered an example of a get-away-state. Will others go over the wall. Who knows.

    I also realised, as I was writing about the Berlin Airport that runway three is taking decades to get done.
    Boris was at one time going to rest on the concrete in front of the bulldozers.

    #80838 Reply
    michael norton

    ET, I do think that most Coal mines should be closed, for several reasons, as you say groundwater contamination, subsidence, dirty air, lung disease for the peasants who work underground, too much Carbon ending up in the atmosphere but it is a dangerous and old fashioned industry but it was what really got the Industrial Revolution to take off like a skyrocket, that in itself has left the World overpopulation and dirty and degraded.
    One day Poland will get off Coal, maybe 2070 like India?

    #80846 Reply
    michael norton

    I am not saying, this theory is the case but I’ll put it out.

    Why didn’t Elon Musk put his gigaeurope plant in Polish Silesia, why base it in Germany?

    On the face, he would have made more money, were it to be based in Silesia. Elon could have paid lower wages in Poland.
    Great transport hub, biggest copper mine in Europe.
    https://www.pgi.gov.pl/images/stories/przeglad/pdf/pg_2004_08_2_11a.pdf

    “During the last half century, after the discovery of large copper deposits near Legnica, Poland has become a major producer of copper and silver.”

    Other than Russia, Poland seems blessed with metals.
    It is also said Poland has Lithium.

    Did Elon think Poland was at the exit door of the E.U.?

    #80854 Reply
    ET

    Michael, you continually frame everything the EU does as some kind of evil other entity imposed and imposing its dibolical will. It isn’t. The EU is an agreement by treaty between the member states, an agreement in which there are mechanisms for resolving disputes and an agreement that member states knew what they were signing before they signed up to it. In any trade agreement or treaty there are always mechanisms that are outwith national courts to deal with disputes. It can’t be any other way, in principle.

    I am quite happy that there are robust food and hygiene standards across the EU and that said standards are enforced by some EU institution, equally, across all member states. If every member state could interpret the rules and regulations as it suited them then it wouldn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

    For sure, it’s not perfect, no trade agreement is, but it is and has been beneficial for many countries and many individuals seeking redress particularly workers’ rights. The current Polish ruling party is seeking to gain the support of anti-abortion and anti-gay sentiment. They do not want to abide by the anti-discrimination tenets of EU law, to which they signed up. They have politicised the judiciary so that they can get their legislation past the constitutional courts. That is interfering with one of the three fundamental arms of government and is diminishing the inherent checks and balances on the executive arm. It’s a power grab by the current ruling party. Do you think that is reasonable? Would you be happy if a UK government tried the same?

    The EU is correct to see the dangers in this and rightly pointed it out to Poland’s current government. I guarantee you that the Catholic Church is lurking somewhere in the background much as it did in Ireland until very recently.

    #80865 Reply
    michael norton

    “Caveat emptor”

    that should be foremost on the outside of the tin that holds the E.U. rules.
    When the United Kingdom joined some forty years ago, we were joining the common market, once in, it got more and more involved, untill we came to understand, we no longer wanted to be involved.
    Poland is on an outward course, it is diverging from E.U. norms.

    All I am suggesting, is that after being controlled by Germany, they were then controlled by Russia.
    Perhaps, they should not have joined the E.U.?

    #80873 Reply
    michael norton

    Germany is still the largest producer of lignite, the most damaging type of fossil fuel.
    https://dbpedia.org/page/Legnica

    I do not know but I will guess that the fossil fuel known as lignite is named after the city of Legnica (Lignitium) in Silesia?
    “The Black Triangle”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Triangle_(region)

    Perhaps Elon Musk was also put off Silesia by the Lignite?

    #80890 Reply
    michael norton

    “Michael, you continually frame everything the EU does as some kind of evil other entity imposed and imposing its dibolical will.” ET November 3, 2021 at 18:38

    Well, I am sorry to say, that, that is how it sometimes looks to me.
    It has been decided by some of the E.U. Elite, not least “the higher echelon” of France that the U.K. must be punished for democratically leaving the European Union. We must be “Lesson des Autres”

    they do not want anyone else going over the wall

    #80992 Reply
    Pigeon English

    MN

    “It has been decided by some of the E.U. Elite, not least “the higher echelon” of France that the U.K. must be punished for democratically leaving the European Union. We must be “Lesson des Autres”

    Why did you expect reward? (cake and eat it)
    Are you so exceptional?

    Brexiters were right that EU is protectionist and now they complain! Is this cognitive dissonance?

    Don’t you remember BRINO (Brexit in name only) rejected by everyone?
    Don’t you remember WTO deal?
    Don’t you remember “we hold all the cards” and other slogans (Brexit means Brexit, Get Brexit done, Oven ready deal and some others that make me sick)

    Every factual warning was Project fear and Studies were ignored.

    Polexit is the Polar opposite to Brexit. No one in Poland wants to leave the EU!

    Why are you and Brexit papers so obsessed with EU?
    You are a 3rd Country like Morocco or Albania or China and should be treated the same according to WTO rules. You have a Trade agreement with the EU and that’s it. Some things are covered and others are not.

    Looking forward for the EU to take back EURO Clearing!

    What I don’t understand is why the Government does not issue 100,000 visas to India for Lorry drivers or butchers etc.

    #81033 Reply
    Pigeon English

    EU had one slogan and sticks to it:

    Keine Rosinenpickerei fur Großbritannien

    “no cherry picking for UK”

    What bit UK doesn’t understand?????

    #81038 Reply
    ET

    A 30yo pregnant woman dies in a Polish hospital because treatment was witheld due to their anti-abortion laws. This is almost exactly what happened in Ireland which subsequently galvanised the public to support changing the laws there.

    “Following the tightening of the abortion law in Poland due to the 2020 ruling of the constitutional tribunal, there remains only one ground for an abortion which would have applied in this case: endangerment of the life or health of the mother,” Budzowska said. “However, it is hard for the doctors to apply this in practice. They do not know if they make the right decision when this real danger occurs. If they carry out an abortion too early and the prosecutors then decide that there was no danger to the mother, they can face up to three years in prison.”

    Currently there is a new piece of legislation before the Polish parliament to increase the penalty to life and equate aiding or abetting an abortion to murder.

    #81075 Reply
    Pigeon English

    ET and MN

    Many East Europeans were pleased to join the EU in belief that the EU will curtail our bigots and impose more just governance. For example “Independent Judiciary”. To my understanding Poland’s ruling party is appointing judges close to their agenda.

    Claim that we have a common identity clashing with Western identity and values is bizarre IMO. Most of my values are closer to my British friends or Danish etc. than to some of my (bigot) compatriots.

    That is why I am not a big fan of nationalism, so called patriotism. Yes nations have some common traditions but we the people are so different.

    While living in London I heard so much about “British values” that I start asking/annoying my friends to tell me more about it so I can integrate better and adapt. They could not mention one that it wasn’t either my value or some random European country having the same values.

    MN you are welcome to tell me what makes Brits so different(values) from the rest of us.

    #81076 Reply
    Pigeon English

    MN

    if you believe that you have more in common/values with the Queen than some East European in B&Q you are deluded.

    #81083 Reply
    Pigeon English

    Does Poland represent East Europe?

    Some of us East Europeans are Catholic/Orthodox/Atheist.

    Some of us are anything in between Nazis and Commies. (So are you Brits.)

    Does the Bulgarians/Slovenians?/Hungarians etc. have the same identity as Polish people?

    #81089 Reply
    Pigeon English

    FPTP is a British value. Winners take it all.

    #81093 Reply
    michael norton

    A point well made PE

    I think there is a movement to subvert British values.
    When I was growing up you would be put in prison for being a homosexual, now it is normal behaviour.
    When I was growing up about half the population went to church, now only a few go to church. Far more Moslems go to their places of worship in Britain than do British people go to their places of worship.
    Almost all adults were married and only with children of that marriage, living together, that is no longer normal.
    We had people hunting foxes on horseback, now no longer legal. You could smoke in public houses, now no longer legal.
    Most of our services were provided by the state, mostly no longer provided by the state.
    When I was growing up, you just went to the Post Office and handed over five shillings to get your shotgun license, now no longer the case.
    Virtually since we joined the Common Market our values have been removed from us, so as to almost be aliens in our own land.
    We have forgotten who we are?

    #81099 Reply
    ET

    Michael, most of the whole planet has moved on in those aspects of society. Homosexuality has been around since the first testament, are you seriously saying it should be illegal? Society moves on, at the start of the industrial revolution it was deemed ok to lower 6 yo boys into mines where adults couldn’t fit by ropes. C’mon it isn’t just the EU that has caused this. Legalised divorce, contraception, internet, etc etc has happened the world over.

    There are no real British or Irish or any other nationality values but there are human values. There is nothing wrong with being proud of where you are from to an extent as long as it doesn’t lead you to criticise others’ faults whilst at the same time turning a blind eye to the same faults in your own country. Blind nationalism or patriotism is idiotic.

    I agree with you on utilities, it’s time they were re-nationalised.

    #81106 Reply
    michael norton

    PE & ET I think I am agreeing with PE, that it is probably now pointless to assume many people now what British Values are.
    I grew up in an unusually stable period, just after the war, you knew your place and were more or less satisfied. Hardly anybody we knew had much more than us, there seemed to be a commonality, equality. Other than the Poles, there were very, very few people from places other than the British Isles, were we lived.
    We had only a coal fire in the living room, no other heating, it was often very cold.
    No telephone, no T.V. no fridge, no freezer, no modern equipment. I am sure my mother would have desired modern stuff, had she been able to get it. One thing we did not have was fat people, almost nobody was fat.
    So a much fitter, more austere but more stable world for us. Almost no cars. Lots of huge old trees, everywhere.
    I suppose then we did understand British Values, I remember we could not play outside on a Sunday because it was the day of rest, that was annoying.

    #81113 Reply
    Pigeon English

    Michael

    If you miss imprisoning homosexuals and fox hunting than you are Alien in modern world and not only in your country.

    #81121 Reply
    Pigeon English

    Michael

    I believe you misunderstood my point. What I was trying to say is as ET wrote

    “There are no real British or Irish or any other nationality values but there are human values”

    #81162 Reply
    michael norton

    PE I did understand your point, I think.
    I have never incarcerated a homosexual and I do not ride to hounds, I have never killed a fox/otter/beaver or badger.
    Values probably change over time but what we now have is the British Values being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.
    In the past if you went to another country you have to accept their values. Now we the natives of Britain apparently have to accept the values of others.
    The Baltic states as well as Poland are rushing to fit razor fences and guard them with troops.
    Poland is expecting shooting soon to and from Belarus.

    #81179 Reply
    ET

    “we now have is the British Values being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.”

    In what way Michael? Exactly what “British Values” have been trashed? British people campaigned to stop the needless cruelty that was fox hunting. It was entirely home grown. British people campaigned for the recognition that homosexual people have a right not to be discriminated against and against the silliness in the modern era of jailing people for their sexuality. You are doing your utmost to conflate changing societal norms with immigration without saying “it’s all bloody johnny foreigners fault.”

    British politicians elected by British people have passed all the relevant legislation. I hardly think that most immigrants from war torn parts of the world give a flying fuck about fox hunting. They just want to be safe. You want to blame everything on “other people” and take zero responsibility for anything yourself. Britian, and any other country, is in the place it’s in because of the politicians that were voted in by eligible-to-vote citizens.

    #81187 Reply
    michael norton

    ET, I am in the place I want to be, that is the place I was born.

    Looks like Eastern Europe is getting ready for an invasion.
    What the Poles do not want is to be swamped by outsiders.
    According to what I just heard on the News, NATO and the E.U. will now be backing Poland to stop the migrants entering the E.U. from Belarus.
    Belarus is asking Russia to protect Belarus.
    How did these migrants ( they say many are Kurds from Iraq) get in to Belarus, some are saying, they flew in from Turkey.
    That would suggest there is trouble being caused by both Belarus and Turkey

    #81191 Reply
    ET

    Evading the direct question you were asked again MN. You are dissembling.

    “we now have is the British Values being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.”

    In what way Michael? Exactly what “British Values” have been trashed?

    That question has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in Belarus, Turkey or anywhere else.

    #81200 Reply
    SA

    Human values evolve with time. The ‘British values’ of the past few centuries are far removed from those of today. In my opinion Britain has been successful because of this evolution and adoption of some of the best of these values, but of course remain far from perfect.

    You will not try to sell me that the ‘hostile environment’ of Priti Patel are ‘British values’. Far from it. The best are tolerance, acceptance of past mistakes multiculturalism and leading with some innovations. I always marvel how much more advanced we are than say France in some aspects of legislation and observance of such things as health and safety.

    One of the worst side effects of Brexit is that we have lost this leadership of steering Europe towards these processes, and in fact are enacting a reversal of many of the innovative ‘British values’ that have been gained over the last two centuries.

    #81203 Reply
    michael norton

    ET, the title of this conversation is “Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union”
    that is what I am trying to think about. If the U.K. had not voted for Brexit, we presumably would be rushing to Poland to help the Poles? We certainly helped the Poles during and just after the war, I grew up with some of them.
    Of course I understand that over time, moral values change. We no longer are required to practise archery, each week.
    We are no longer expected to go to church, each week. People no longer have to be quiet and modest on a Sunday. We no longer have the death penalty. We no longer have an empire. We no longer have conscription.

    But over the last half century we have been invaded.
    I am not saying this is all bad, most has probably been beneficial.
    On Friday I was in A&E with broken ribs and a nicked lung, the consultant was an Indian chap, he told me, he had been in the same job for 28 years. He could not have been more caring, he even rang me at home, Sunday night, to check on me and badger me to contact my G.P. service on Monday.
    The vast majority of people who come to the U.K. do so because they want a good life and they do their best to fit in.

    But hundreds of thousands, do not want to fit in. They want us to change and their pressure is relentless.
    They make me quite uncomfortable, I fear for our future, that we will be forced to lose our identity.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 61 total)
Reply To: Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union
Your information: