Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union


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  • #81214 Reply
    michael norton

    FRANCE24

    “Over the last 24 hours, police have detained over 50 people near Bialowieza after they illegally crossed the border,” Tomasz Krupa, spokesman for the Podlaskie regional police, told AFP, explaining that two separate groups of migrants were involved, some of whom had evaded detention.

    “The situation is not calm,” Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak told Polish Radio on Wednesday, adding that smaller groups of migrants were now attempting to breach the border of the EU and NATO member.”

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211110-poland-accuses-putin-of-masterminding-belarus-border-crisis

    The government of Poland is getting ready to ask NATO to help, saying that they “feel” Mr. Putin is behind this mass influx of Asian Migrants into Belarus.

    I suppose, what this does show that there is almost nothing that can be done to protect the borders of the E.U. No Middle East people just turn up on the shore of the English Channel, E.U. countries have let them through, as they know they want to get to the U.K. Whatever your views on human rights, it ought to be possible to consider the rights of the indigenous Europeans, to be allowed a view, that they do not to be swamped by people from outside.
    If you do not let that view be heard, you will have revolution.
    The people of the Baltic States and of Poland and Hungary and Austria and Switzerland, mostly, do not want this invasion.
    What to do about it, is the next question, it does seem that soon NATO will be drawn in.

    #81224 Reply
    ET

    “ET, the title of this conversation is “Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union”

    MN, in multiple posts in this thread YOU made you brought up “British Values” and how YOU believe those damned immigrants are undermining “British Values.” Now you are using the term “invasion.” There are no such “British values” any more than there are Irish, French, German, American or any other nationalised values. If an Irish person brought up the spectre of “Irish Values” I’d be just as sceptical and scoffing because I know that they and you cannot name a single value concept that can be said to be peculiarly nationalised. It’s a rhetorical political tool that appeals to the worst kind of patriotism. Similar and used in the same way as “ordinary working people’s values,” “Christian (or insert religion here) values” and many other examples.

    I have asked you to cite any “British value” and cite a “British Value being trashed by newcomers to these Isles.” You won’t because you cannot, you know there are none such. Yet here you are doing your damnedest to stoke anti-immigrant sentiment.

    #81230 Reply
    PigeonEnglish

    Michael

    “ET, the title of this conversation is “Eastern Europe struggling to adjust to loss of identity in the European Union” that is what I am trying to think about””.

    And then you go talking about different issues.

    So what values do Eastern Europeans struggle to adjust in EU? Please don’t say homophobia and racism!!!

    And what British values were trashed by EU citizen migration to UK?

    Polish are very religious and by anecdotal evidence they are filling Irish churches 😏.

    #81237 Reply
    SA

    This article in CP is pertinent to the current discusssion.

    CounterPunch: Xenophobic Attitudes in France, Sweden, Germany, and Poland – by Thomas Klikauer and Meg Young (10 Nov 2021)

    I see MN has now resorted to terms such as invasion and swamped. Ah the pure values are being adulterated by the impure foreigners.

    #81246 Reply
    michael norton

    If the wishes of indigenous Europeans are not to even be considered, then goodbye democracy, for it will no longer have any meaning. Scream all you want about human rights, let them come.
    This, you turkeys, is why Brexit was voted for. People have had enough of the invasions, of values being imposed from elsewhere.
    Yes, modest immigration of people that are wanted and needed but the indigenous populous do not want to be swamped.
    Just because the Remainers want to move from country to country to country and see no borders, that is not how the majority see it, it is not how the majority want it.
    The majority may not be as loud as University Educated Elites but does that mean their voice should not be heard at the ballot box. If you educated people know you are right and the lesser mortals are wrong, then revolution will be coming or total subservience to the woke. Then the flood doors will be broken for good.

    #81276 Reply
    Pigeon English

    Michael, can you answer what values were destroyed by EU migration!!!!!!!!!

    What are the values that EU migrants wanted to impose?

    #81291 Reply
    michael norton

    PE, The short answer is no.
    As others have said it is quite difficult to be precise.
    If you have always lived in an area with not much influx, then you feel your area is being swamped, maybe you feel that is wrong.
    However if during the same time scale, the last half century, you lived in an area, where hardly any new people came in, I doubt you would be bothered.
    So, I agree, it is more about personal perception.

    But if you were in the second world war, as was my father, your war, after in was over and you moved home, might have been a very, very different war from others.
    One of my great uncles was put in a lobster pot for six weeks by the Japanese, he survived, after a lot of his bowels were removed. How do you compare that?
    I doubt that uncle was accepting of Japanese.

    #81295 Reply
    ET

    “As others have said it is quite difficult to be precise.”

    That is because they don’t exist. Now you bring up the second world war. You didn’t fight in it Michael, you were not there. Aside from the very few WW2 veterans still alive neither were the rest of the planet’s population.

    “The majority may not be as loud as University Educated Elites…………..”

    What other ridiculous tropes will you bring up Michael? “British values,” WW2, University Educated Elites, wokeness, Invasion, swamped……………football is coming home?

    You have your views Michael, or rather, those of the Express. Stick to them and ensure you don’t get exposed to anything that might challange them. As I have asked before, just why in hell are you reading Craig Murray’s blog if not that you don’t agree with the Express’ views?

    #81297 Reply
    michael norton

    ET, PE

    I am not sure I was the first (on this conversation) to mention British Values.
    I know it is a phrase dangled out by the likes of government ministers, when they try to give a miasma,
    that we are all in it together.
    I was trying to agree, that maybe, now, it would be very difficult, to write down a list of British Values.
    Values are changed, everytime you get innundated/invaded.
    Going back to the time of the last Storegga Slide, about 8,200 years ago, in essence, that was mostly the end of the Mesolithic.
    The people who lived in and around the North Sea ( perhaps half of all people in Europe at that time), got innundated, drowned, their ways of life lost. Newcommers came from the Fertile Crescent bringing Agriculture.
    The world Agriculture, includes culture. Implying a totally different way of life, no longer the free and easy life of marsh boating/fishing catching eels and goose eggs. Never ending hard graft, often under command.
    Each invasion since, even if the locals were not killed, was a new, enforced culture change, a new subservience to the incommers.

    #81301 Reply
    Pigeon English

    I understand that you are racist and xenophobe and that is how you are. But what annoys me is your justification with meaningless slogans and your intellectual dishonesty.

    Couple of examples

    – your great uncle in lobster pot by the Japanese and yet you hate China

    – you use Regime so much and yet you never mention Corruption in UK politics.

    – Royal Navy and British Empire imposing your values in the past and now It’s not a problem for you

    – Being part of EU bad but Nato good

    – Taiwan is in theory Chinese territory but you object to Chinese planes flying close to it and you approve of the Royal Navy patrolling there

    – In the 70’s you went to West Indies to lure labour to come to Britain.

    – Many in the world were British subjects and they took the opportunity to go to the “Motherland”😂

    #81307 Reply
    Pigeon English

    “Each invasion since, even if the locals were not killed, was a new, enforced culture change, a new subservience to the incommers”

    MN

    I would disagree!

    Culture were always mixing.

    Were your ancestors invaders or Indigenous?

    Why are you Christian? Did you impose it or Christianity was imposed on your ancestors?

    #81309 Reply
    michael norton

    As far as I have been told, my great uncle was working in Shanghai, when it got overrun by Japanese, at some point, they put him in a lobster pot. He lived and eventually, after the war, moved to Africa. I expect after that he had as little to do with the Japanese as possible.
    Regime is often used to mock the Americans, as they use Regime for any country, that does not bow down to them, like Syria.
    The Royal Navy has been in existence for 600 years, in the U.K. it is known as “Senior Service”
    Yes, it is what allowed the British to have a World Empire. We no longer have a World Empire or an Emperor but we still have the Royal Navy, with the Nuclear Option carried by the submarines known as Vanguard SSBN.
    Yes, Taiwan is populated by Chinese people, many of the Chinese Nationalists, who once controlled China but fled to Taiwan under Chiang Kai Shek to escape the Communist Regime.
    The Taiwan people, think they are the proper Chinese people, the Communists are improper Chinese people.

    #81379 Reply
    ET

    The Irish Times ran a piece today bigging up Ireland based on the 2021 IPSOS Global Trends Survey.

    One of the questions highlighted was: “In my country, there is more and more conflict between people who don’t share the same values.” As we have been referring to “values” I wondered how IPSOS defines values. In their 2020 Global Trends Survey, downloadable here, on page 28-30 of that .pdf they go into more detail about what values they surveyed than they do in their 2021 blurb. I am not sure I agree all the specific things they refer to as values are actually values conceptually but it’s a starting place for discussion. Ireland was included in the survey for the first time ever this year so I guess that’s why the Irish Times is getting all excited.

    “The Irish are the least likely of the 25 countries surveyed to feel that we have too many immigrants in our country, or to hold the belief that there is more and more conflict on our island between people who don’t share the same values.”

    Go us 😀

    #81389 Reply
    michael norton

    Boris Johnson has chaired a COBRA meeting today and they have announced the threat level to the U.K. moves up to Severe.
    In case anybody does not know blowing up stuff near to hospitals is not British values.
    A few years ago there was a car bomb driven close to a Glasgow hospital, the driver got a hard beating from members of the public.
    I would call that British Values.
    British values is wanting our British ways of life to continue as peacefully as possible.
    The opposite of British values is planning and setting bombs to inflict terror on the populated of the U.K.



    [ Mod: This blog is not to be used as a platform for anti-immigrant sentiment, Michael. You have been posting content of that nature for a very long time. There are other recent comments from you in the same vein that have not seen the light of day. As Craig put it: “To precis Michael’s reply … he wants it to be respectable to be a racist.”

    Craig discusses the racist nature of opposition to immigration in the following threads:

    To paraphrase Craig’s pub metaphor in the discussion under the article “Blog Housekeeping Point” (25-04-2017): people who put the blame for socioeconomic problems on immigration will be banned from the premises.

    You are being excluded for repeatedly infringing the “no racism” rule. You have received more cautions (for racism, amongst other things) than any other commenter. You have been given final warnings and been suspended more often than any other commenter. (If you recall, one of the conditions of lifting your suspension earlier this year was that you should refrain from making “any attribution of blame on the basis of nationality, ethnicity, or culture”.) You have also been responsible for more deleted comments than anyone else in the history of the blog, by a considerable margin. It’s time now for that ongoing cycle to stop. ]

    #81390 Reply
    Pigeon English

    E T

    I am pleased that East Europeans did not trashed/impossed their values upon your’s. We behave in Ireland unlike in UK where we take over the whole communities and march the English at gun point to Catholic or Orthodox Churches or out of the Pub!

    OMG GDP per capita Vs England is embarrassing🤩!

    I have no doubt that with BJ and Brexit Britain will catch up!

    BTW what means slogan “Build Back Better” I am not sarcastic.

    #81391 Reply
    Pigeon English

    EU imposing sanctions on Belarus and Russia is fine but them retaliating with cutting the Gas supply is anything from unfair to act of war. It is always the other that have to turn the other cheek! Maybe the Belarus should ask for millions or billions like Turkey to keep migrants away.

    #81409 Reply
    ET

    “In case anybody does not know blowing up stuff near to hospitals is not British values.”

    A good example MN. Is there a place on the planet where people value blowing stuff up near a hospital? The answer is, of course not. Aside from the very tiny minority of terrorists who see benefit in this kind of action I would think that close to 100% of the entire planet’s population would see this as a heinous and callous act. “Not blowing up stuff near to hospitals” is a universal value held by pretty much everyone in the world and is not exclusively a British, nor any other nationality’s value.

    #81428 Reply
    SA

    It is OK however to blow up hospitals as long as it is done from the air and by people who share our values of enforcing democracy by bombing.
    Also ‘Western values’ I believe include bombing civilians in Baghdad to achieve ‘shock and awe’ and Baghus.

    #81431 Reply
    Pigeon English

    S A

    Since the MODs don’t like sarcasm I will try to refrain from it 😥.

    What I find pinnacle of our arrogance is asking our leaders whether bombing/sanctions were worth it – Blair and Albright – and of course they always answer Yes. There is never a poll what the bombed, sanctioned people think!

    Everything is “just” collateral damage! Democracy works in mysterious ways.

    #81437 Reply
    ET

    “Since the MODs don’t like sarcasm I will try to refrain from it 😥.”

    They have done you a favour PE. There has been more than one occasion when people have made similar sarcastic comments online and have had a visit from the anti-terrorist Police with I believe some prosecuted and convicted of an offence. We all know it was sarcasm but better safe than sorry.

    #81453 Reply
    Pigeon English

    E T

    I will try to remember your sensible advice on this site and even more on social media or other sites.

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