Shootings in France

by craig on September 6, 2012 10:45 pm in Uncategorized

Let me be upfront: none of my usual contacts, so far, has any knowledge about the very clinical murders in France of the Iraqi origin British Hilli family. I have seen various internet reports of the links of Mr Hilli to the defence industry and that the French cyclist victim was linked to the nuclear industry. I am not immediately concerned that the other cyclist who raised the alarm was ex-RAF; had that fact been sinister, it would have been hidden or he might not have raised the alarm at all.

In short, I really do not know what is happening here and I don’t think normal hierarchies within British security agencies know either. It may be genuinely random, or not. I am not posting to speculate or to spread knowledge, but because unless I do post, commenters will derail other threads to discuss this. Should I discover anything, I will let you know. But we may well never know; we still don’t really know who killed JFK, or Hilda Murrell. There is always an answer, but it is not always known to the public.

No excuse can justify the failure to identify and help the poor little girl who was still alive in the bottom of the car. Discovering if anybody was alive in the car should have outweighed every other consideration for the emergency services. Protocols for the dead will not help them much, whatever they may achieve for abstract justice. The living are easier to serve well, and this was a gross failure.

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479 Comments

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  1. friendly phil

    6 Sep, 2012 - 11:13 pm

    The foolish Hollande is reportedly sending heavy weapons to escalate the fighting in Syria. I doubt this little bit of the US-imagined Middle East cropping up on his own doorstep will give him pause. He doesn’t have the imagination.
    .
    Here’s a video appeal to President Obama, in English, by a Syrian priest. Worth watching.
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5YLC1B3szA

  2. @Craig – Dig the deft suggestion that there are both normal and non-normal hierarchies within Brit security agencies!

    David Cornwell aka John Le Carré suggests there’s a committee in SIS that only includes those believed to be immune from Playing the Sieve to Tel Aviv, but I think that may be wishful thinking on his part.

    As for not playing the sieve to Langley, surely that’s impossible when the head of the CIA’s London Station attends the weekly JIC meetings. I mean where would people even talk to each other?

  3. @ Craig,

    ” we still don’t really know who killed JFK, or Hilda Murrell.”

    And you might add:-

    – or Dr. Kelly

    – or Princess D…

    and more.

  4. If the queen went to Fort Monckton before she flew up to Balmoral, as is alleged, that would give the game away a bit, though.

  5. @N_
    What is Fort Monckton?

  6. This comes from the Mail:

    ‘Last night Philip Murphy, a neighbour in the wealthy village of Claygate, Surrey, recalled how police asked if they could use his driveway to spy on the massacre victims’ mock-Tudor house.

    The retired finance director said: ‘I watched them from the window and they were watching Mr Al-Hilli and his brother.

    ‘I thought they were from Special Branch. They would sit there all day in their parked car just looking at the house.

    ‘When Mr Al-Hilli came out and drove off, they would follow him. It was all very odd. I never told the family they were being watched.’

    The surveillance happened as the invasion of Iraq by US and British forces began in March 2003.’

    Seems as though he knew something.

  7. The Daily Mail has been doing some amateur sleuthing about Saad Al Hilli:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/Lake-Annecy-shooting-Manhunt-assassin-shot-Surrey-businessman-grandmother.html

    For what that is worth, here are some of the spook related claims:

    Engineer Saad Al-Hilli, 50, was born in Iraq and was put under Special Branch surveillance during the second Gulf War.

    It is understood that Mr Al-Hilli has been known to British intelligence officials for around 20 years.

    In 2003, during the U.S. and British invasion of Iraq, officers working with the intelligence services mounted a surveillance operation on his home for several weeks, a neighbour who hosted them told the Mail.

    Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday.

    They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car’s owner was confirmed. According to the French TV station Demain, locals described embassy staff as being ‘military type’ and numbering around 20.

    One neighbour said of Mr Hilli: ‘He’s not Mr Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. I doubt the establishment wanted to get rid of him.’

    Neighbours said he was grappling with a ‘problem’ and went on holiday despite Zainab missing the start of the school term;

    A friend of Mr Al-Hilli spoke of a rumbling inheritance dispute within the family;

    He was company secretary of a Swindon-based aerial photography company, AMS 1087 Ltd

  8. Ruth: They could have been watching everyone with Iraqi origins. A friend (originally from Iraq) felt that he was under surveillance, and the head of the establishment he worked for said that he’d been questioned about him. That’s just par for the course if your not quite “one of us” in this miserable country, not much should be read into that alone.

    I wondered if it was more of this muscular French nationalism, since white-nationalist terrorists activities go very under-reported these days. They only kill at random usually, this might have been something more organised.

  9. Craig,

    If “RAF cyclist” came across a badly wounded, but still alive girl. he may have had no personal moral option other than to get involved. Maybe if all had been dead at scene he cold have just vanished. Just a line of thought. Maybe he was just there by random chance as you think likely.

    The Press hasn’t yet managed to track this guy down yet (or even name him) as far as I can see. The Prosecutor said directly to the BBC, in a live interview, this “RAF cyclist” undoubtedly saved the little girl’s life.

  10. I copied the few commments on the indymedia site, earlier, just after the DA-notice comment from ‘Manchester based Journalist’, but not including the comment of 15:12 quoted by Anon here, concerning General Yossi Ben Hanan (chief of defence at Paris Israeli embassy) picking up three unknown others in helicopter at Chambrey Airport (close to the scene).


    His company

    06.09.2012 13:36
    He was set up by Mi6 in 2007 in a front company called AMS1087 which did aircraft based photography. They were based at the Delta office park in Wiltshire which is built on part of the old ‘Turnstile’ nuclear Command and Control bunker and is still owned by the MoD. He was loaned RAF trainer aircraft at no cost to help him get established as well as pilots and because of these advantages his company originally thrived however once he started to visit Iran in late 2010 he lost a lot of (MoD supplied) private contracts and the business almost collapsed.

    It is interesting that they let him wander around France with no protection even though they knew he was an Israeli “sikul memukad” or high profile target. A deserted country road would have been ideal for the Israeli kill team sent after him.

    Looks like he either outlived his usefulness or went ‘rogue’


    Watching
    The cyclist who found the body was an RAF airman !!!

    06.09.2012 13:48
    What an amazing coincidence that the first person on the scene was a member of the RAF Regiment (the Air Force army branch) who just had to be passing on his bike !!!


    Ian
    British Embassy sends twenty person team to crime scene

    06.09.2012 14:05
    In an unprecedented action the British Embassy in Paris has sent a twenty person team to the crime scene headed by Kara Owen the deputy British ambassador. According to local TV station ‘Demain’ people describe the British Embassy staff as being “military type”.

    There is developing a cover up of massive proportions to protect Israel.


    Remember this day
    Looks like they were attempting to run

    06.09.2012 14:27
    The local police (before they were shut up) said that the family had multiple passports including British, Iraqi, Swedish and UAE. It seems they were travelling cross country perhaps back to Iraq where they would feel safe .


    Drudge
    Defence Advisory Notice is in effect here

    06.09.2012 14:41
    Today at 0750 we received information that a Defence Advisory Notice or ‘D Notice’ was in effect with regard to certain facts about this story.

    No mention of his links to the Security Services
    No mention of his links to Iran
    No mention of his links to nuclear weapons research
    No speculation regarding Israel involvement in the killing

    The only place you are going to read about the real facts of this story are on sites like Indymedia.

    Manchester based Journalist

  11. It seems rt.com is redirecting to a bogus page -news blackout is international, or it’s down.

  12. @ Cryptonym,

    I noticed the same thing.

    It could be just some sort of glitch – or – some type of 9/11 shit about to burst again.
    Who knows?

  13. It is I only

    7 Sep, 2012 - 3:28 am

    I’m sure that it wasn’t MI5/MI6, but a lone right-wing nut, white supremacist.
    It could have been maybe as well Putin? Or Ahmenijad? Maybe Assad?
    Well, I’m sure that it wasn’t Osama ben Laden. He’s been killed by the brave heroic Obomba!

  14. reading reports now. cnn say 7yr old girl was placed in a medical coma because her injuries were so bad. but bbc says she was stable. reports say she was walkin towards the car at one point. weird that she was outside the car in the first place.

  15. only mention of that surname i can find in the cablegate is here – http://cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=07BAGHDAD2819&q=al-hilli

    but different person. maybe could see if related. name on cable is Dr. Muhaned Kareem Al-Hilli (Chief, Chemical
    Department, NMD),

  16. PPS. the above cable is concerning meetings with the iraqis regarding chemical weapons. could be entirely unrelated of course. just in process of research.

    cable details how iraq was frustrated by kurdistan regional gov by obfuscating checks on industry there.

    then there’s a weird note at the end of it…
    NOTE: MOST Deputy Minister Samir Raouf was kidnapped
    from his residence near the ministry August 19. MOST
    officials insisted that our meeting go forward despite the
    kidnapping. END NOTE.

  17. I wonder whether anyone is checking whether any private planes left nearby Geneva airport in the hours after the killings, and where they said they were going?

  18. Why is Frank Gardner, BBC Security correspondent getting involved and even pushing a drug deal scenario? Not to mention David Cameron and William Hague speaking out. I smell a rat. Also, the vehicle wasn’t opened for hours because they feared that glass would shatter and contaminate the scene. Yet the mysterious passing unnamed RAF cyclist did in fact (how?) smash the drivers window open. (why not try the door handle? The Daily Mirror shows the passenger window smashed as well http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shootings-saad-al-hilli-1309482) Makes no sense whatsoever. The killer targeted the victims clinically, there are no bullet holes in the vehicle, yet fifteen (15) “cartridges” are found. Elsewhere “dozens of shell casings”. (Sky news, quoting “reports” quoting Police sources, on the other hand says the bodies were “riddled with bullets”)

  19. Ah, I now see that the Telegraph has reported that the RAF cyclist casually smashed the window and turned off the engine because the doors had been locked. (by whom, locking the girl outside) and elsewhere that the French police could’t open the doors (not because they were locked but to prevent contamnation of the “bullet riddled doors” (except the police deny finding any bullets in the doors….)
    Compare:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9527148/France-shooting-There-was-noise-I-was-scared-said-girl-who-hid-from-killers.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9524537/France-shooting-Father-named-as-Saad-Al-Hilli.html

  20. BBC Radio 4 Today were putting it as a family feud about premises in Baghdad that were sequestered by the Baath regime. They are saying that Mr Al Hilli recently returned to Baghdad to recover the premises. Oh yeah!

    btw are the BBC thick or was this deliberate to discomfort the new leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett, an Australian born agricultural scientist and ex Guardian Weekly editor? Stait introduced her on BBC Breakfast as being in Brighton on the eve of the Green Party conference and that she was replacing Caroline SPELMAN as leader who was their only MP. Ms Bennett corrected him saying that the name was Caroline LUCAS and he made a weak apology. The caption above was reading Live BRISTOL where the conference is happening yet Stait still referred to her as being in BRIGHTON. Wake up Stait and the BBC. Perhaps there is some animus within that is anti Green? Stait looked the idiot. Ms Bennett is streets ahead.

  21. Keep the conspiracy theories coming. They make brilliant reading. I am sure a few more random events will lick into place and we can lay the blame on the CIA and Mosad.

  22. Bill Oldroyd

    7 Sep, 2012 - 7:59 am

    A terrible tragedy for the young children involved and the family.

    This is in danger of becoming a real-life Scandinavian TV detective series. Will there be sub-titles ?.

  23. Britain has every reason to want to avoid an overt Israeli attack in Iran, which then gives Britain every motivation to help Israel covertly and cover it up. This is because if Israel attacks Iran then the USA will support Israel. This will drag Britain into a third Middle East war because of the “special relationship” which is likely to be very unpopular with the public. Muslim extremists would view it as a Jews versus Muslims war and might start a domestic bombing campaign in protest at Britain’s involvement.
    .
    Then if Cameron loses the 2015 election, which is looking very likely, Britain will get a Jewish Prime Minister, Ed Miliband, which will tunr up the heat even further.
    .
    The whole thing stinks and the comments here reinforce that. The drug deal gone wrong looks like a cover-up. It’s a bit clumsy for Mossad though, isn’t it?

  24. An unusual movement of names since 2002 through this neighbour’s house, the neighbour who was adding to the mystery yesterday???

    http://www.192.com/atoz/people/saltman/jack/

  25. Wagon Wheels

    7 Sep, 2012 - 8:25 am

    “I am not immediately concerned that the other cyclist who raised the alarm was ex-RAF”
    .
    Even though the dead Iraqi (“who had been living in Britain since *even* before his children were born”, wow, thanks BBC News) was a defence contractor for um, erm, how can I put this – the RAF.

  26. Solon, and what their nationalities were? It has all the markings of MOSSAD, clinical, cruel and deadly.

  27. Wagon Wheels

    7 Sep, 2012 - 8:34 am

    “Why is Frank Gardner, BBC Security correspondent getting involved and even pushing a drug deal scenario?”

    Frank Gardner works directly for MI6. Just look at the man’s record of previous LIES and DISINFORMATION. No self respecting journalist would carry on in a profession that they were so demonstrably UTTERLY USELESS at.

  28. Whenever BBC ‘Security’ correspondents Frank Gardner or Gordon Correra are reporting on a story, you know the spooks are involved…….

  29. That poor, poor girl. Lying there undeer the body of her dead mother, as quiet as a church mouse, frozen with terror, for eight hours.

    It’s unbearable to contemplate.

  30. @ John Goss : no idea! The thought just occurred that if this was a professional job, one would want to exfiltrate the people involved as speedily and safely as possible, and air transport seems an obvious way.

  31. Alps victims’ neighbour speaks

    A neighbour whose house backs on to the home of a Surrey family shot dead in the French Alps has revealed that the father said something to him before he went on holiday that he would be informing the police about.

    Jack Saltman, whose house backs on to the family home in Claygate, spoke of Saad al-Hilli who had gone on a trip to France with his family.

    Mr al-Hilli and his wife Iqbal and a woman believed to be her mother were shot and killed by a gunman.

    Speaking to Sam Walker on the Richard Bacon Show on Radio 5 Live, he said: “I know one little thing which I am not prepared to speak (about) at the moment. I will tell the police about it.

    “It was something Saad said to me before he went but at this stage I do not feel I can disclose that but I will tell the police exactly what he told me before he left.”

    http://www.bournelocal.co.uk/news/alps-victims-neighbour-speaks-1-4232096

  32. The latest suspect appears to be the brother of Mr Al-Hilli, but you never know because that’s from the BBC.

  33. Murder most fowl

    7 Sep, 2012 - 10:34 am

    The Dauphine-Libere (local paper for area) says that the brother has “handed himself in” to the British police in order to remove himself from being suspected.

    http://www.ledauphine.com/ (French)

  34. If the government did invoke the provisions of the standing D-notice then they are instrumental in covering up the savage and brutal murder of British,French and apparently Swedish citizens and they clearly have information re the perpetrators.So too are the press, tv and other media.

  35. From the aerial photos in the Telegraph you can see the rear tyre has buried itself due to wheel spin in reverse. Presumably this was how the ex-Raf guy found it, with the engine still gunning and in gear. This is surely why he felt he had to switch off the engine. The window would have already been shattered by the bullets but still in place. So easy to make a hole, reach in and switch off the engine.

    Sounds very plausible to me.

  36. @Zoologist “What is Fort Monckton?

    Fort Monckton (“the Fort”) is an SIS (MI6) field ops training place near Gosport on the Hampshire coast. It houses lots of SOE memorabilia, according to Richard Tomlinson, presumably to get the SIS trainees into the spirit of the thing. SIS do liaison training there with the special ops and death-squad type capability they can call on from the armed forces (“Increment”), including from the SAS and SBS.

  37. Who said he had no protection?

    One ‘cyclist’ shot dead; another ‘cyclist’, ex-RAF, straight onto the scene.

    Come on! How much manpower did the assassination team have? Not enough to stop a couple of cyclists 500m away?

    Interesting that it’s the French cyclist who got killed, not the British one. Reminds me of the Princess Diana assassination.

    So the British embassy have put 20 people onto the case! That rather suggests national security.

    Including its media management side. What they won’t want is speculation in France that the British protection looked the other way and, nous sommes désolés, the French guy was just collateral, like Henri Paul. (Paul was the French security guy who got killed with Princess Diana – and before anyone calls him a chauffeur, no he wasn’t a chauffeur).

    The question is not whether he had protection. He obviously had protection. The question is what happened with that protection.

  38. Just as well the post mortems are being carried out by French pathologists rather than one of the British bunglers like Patel and others.

    Listen to Prof Sebastian Lucas on the BBC London News last night.
    9mins 15 secs in BBC iPlayer http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01mgwq7/BBC_London_News_06_09_2012/

    Unfortunately the link expires at 7pm tonight.

    Shorrock is another name that come to mind.
    {http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-438292/Reprimand-Menezes-pathologist-altered-report.html}

    Note that he is still on this list {http://www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/Current_Home_Office_Register.pdf} although there is this note at the bottom. The National Police Improvement Agency should sort themselves out.

    **NOTE: Dr Shorrock is currently suspended by the GMC from undertaking any medical practice for which he is registered for and has therefore been suspended from the Home Office Register. Dr Shorrock is therefore unavailable to undertake any forensic post mortems on behalf of the Coroner or Police.

  39. I’m just waiting for the brother to be found dead as well with 20 bullets in the head – verdict suicide.

    Maybe it really is as simple as a family feud but the press seems to be speculating about absolutely everything except the supposed “facts” allegedly covered by Standing D Notice.

  40. Keith Crosby

    7 Sep, 2012 - 2:19 pm

    I heard it was a dispute about Shergar.

  41. Google translate of Le Dauphiné Libéré live blog.

    9 am 45.’s Brother driver of the vehicle, possibly financial dispute with him, appeared Thursday in the British police to exonerate himself, according to a source close to the investigation, quoted by AFP. The prosecutor Annecy, Eric Maillaud, said to have no “official confirmation”.

    9 am 28. Prosecutor called for caution on this track financial dispute, is querying the gap implied by the fact of “pass a financial dispute with a quadruple murder.”

    So the Prosecutor is asking for caution about the brother story (who may have already spoken to UK police) but the British media is playing that up against the Prosecutor’s wishes.

  42. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 2:40 pm

    Neil

    If you’re looking for conspiracy theories then you need to read Frank Gardiner or indeed anything in MSM.

    They are now inventing all sorts of scenarios based on nothing but their own admitted speculation. Drug dealers, armed robbers, family feuds etc.

    Gardiner even has the cheek to say that those who are following the known facts are the conspiracy theorists.

    I think that the days when MSM could get away with this nonsense are fast coming to an end.

  43. Google translate of http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/09/07/le-procureur-d-annecy-cette-affaire-ressemble-de-plus-en-plus-a-un-guet-apens

    We learned that it is actually 25 shots (not 16 as announced yesterday) that was drawn with one or more automatic pistols.
    Eric Maillaud confirmed that the brother of one of the victims was understood by the British police (note: he presented himself to the authorities), there was a dispute between them and they would same argument.
    The course of the investigation, the judge noted that “cooperation between the two countries is complete.” A police investigator also has to fly to London.
    Just before this interview with the Dauphine Libere and the Guardian, Eric Maillaud received the Ambassador of Great Britain, Sir Peter Ricketts.
    According to our sources, the pressure is very strong in this case the side of the British authorities.

  44. Gardiner even has the cheek to say that those who are following the known facts are the conspiracy theorists.

    Anyone who even considers thinking for themselves, rather than playing the “subject” in the Stanford Prison Experiment throughout their entire life, is a terrorist, conspiracy theorist, rapist, paedophile, and Nazi.

    Talking about facts without allowing the media’s tentacles completely free rein in your brain is the most terrorist act of them all.

    Ain’t that so, CE?

  45. @N_ “the special ops and death-squad type capability they can call on from the armed forces (“Increment”), including from the SAS and SBS.

    …the RAF contribution being from their SD Flight.

    Dunno how good they are at cycling. In the French Alps, for instance.

  46. The BBC have swopped Jon Sopel for Frank Gardner and are going with the family feud.

    7 September 2012 Last updated at 14:17
    France shootings: Possible family row over money probed
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19514794#

    possible….thought to have been a witness….the BBC understands…

  47. Perhaps it was the CIA. If he had been in Iran helping them with the drone they downed. It might just upset the yanks!

  48. For me the oddest thing about this is the beating of the 7 year old girl and her being left alive. I guess the most mundane yet still horrible explanation is to get pin numbers out of the adults (assuming it was a robbery) but that does not seem to ring true. It seems too professional for robbers but not professional enough for a well executed assassination.

  49. Vermilion,

    The Prosecutor said only the very prompt life sustaining aid applied by the British ex-RAF cyclist saved her life. She had been shot and struck multiple times with a blunt instrument. She was left for dead. This doesn’t explain how she then supposedly happened to be outside the still locked car and collapsed just as the ex RAF guy approached.

  50. I think the issue that we should be looking at is why France and not the UK where they live/spend 99% of their time?

    This was obviously planned reasonably well and seemed meticulous in delivery. I suspect it has a strong bearing on the case.

    Somebody wanted them out of the UK first.

    As for this being a family feud (Arabs being savages and all that eh what?) I find that extremely hard to believe. Too much is starting to stink already.

  51. If it was a family feud over an inheritance, why leave the two little girls alive? They’d inherit their father’s share, presumably. And family members would have known that the 4 year old existed, even if the police didn’t.

  52. “The Prosecutor said only the very prompt life sustaining aid applied by the British ex-RAF cyclist saved her life.”

    Maybe it did. But all he did, according to reports, was put her in the recovery position. Hardly major.

  53. “…not professional enough for a well executed assassination”

    Perhaps it was a badly-executed assassination. A botched job. Perhaps that’s why a delegation of security officials were dispatched to the scene so promptly and why there’s a D Notice in force.

  54. Anon

    Thanks for that – I did not realise she had been shot too. Still the most obvious explanation for the beatings (assuming they were before the shooting) is to put pressure on the adults to obtain some information. I guess she was left for dead – again a sign of the killer or killers not being totally professional. Also if it was robbery for valuables or to find say a laptop with information surely the car would have been searched and the younger girl found.

  55. If it turns out the brother is under police protection while the papers print this stuff after the Prosecutor asked them not to – well I’ll be even sicker than usual.

    If he really is a suspect and his whereabouts unknown, why is he not wanted for questioning with the public advised not to approach?

  56. The brother has handed himself in to police in the UK “to clear his name”. His whereabouts are not unknown.

  57. I just bet they dig up and fit up some a lone right-wing nut/white supremacist for this.

    Very fishy indeed…

  58. “Another French police source said the brother of victim, named in British media as 50-year old Saad al-Hilli, presented himself to British police on Thursday to proclaim his innocence and cooperate in the probe.”
    http://www.english.rfi.fr/general/20120907-family-feud-possibly-behind-france-shooting-police

  59. And the French cyclist, Sylvain Mollier, who was shot and killed, was on paternity leave, apparently. The whole thing is appalling.

  60. Nuld,

    The ex RAF guy staunched the bleeding from a major wound according to the Prosecutor yesterday. He also kept vital airways open and kept her breathing.

  61. “The ex RAF guy staunched the bleeding from a major wound according to the Prosecutor yesterday. He also kept vital airways open and kept her breathing.”

    Good for him. All I read was “the recovery position”.

  62. Why hasn’t this ex-RAF guy been named?

  63. Nuld,

    Yes I know French reports say that he has approached police in the UK. But no confirmation of that from officials here yet. Presumably the national newspaper editors probably know if it is true or not. Personally I’d have maybe turned up at a local newspaper office first. I’d also be very worried about my safety if I was an innocent brother right now.

  64. Nuld,

    BBC said ex-RAF guy is under witness protection and all details are being withheld because of this.

  65. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 3:51 pm

    This Jack Saltman chap who is next door neighbour of the family is a former journalist, working for the BBC and Thames amongst others. He’s the guy who told the British police why the father was worried. He hasn’t expanded publicly on this.

    Anyway, he seems to have been involved in making a TV prog about the MLK assassination and has given testimony in court.

    http://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/MLKACT/MLKACTvol07.txt

    May be interesting. May be not. In any event, he’s not unfamiliar with spookie goings on.

  66. I’ve discovered from a David Kelly site that Mr al Hilli was a member of the ba’ath faith just like David Kelly. So if you can find the murderer(s) of Dr David Kelly the two might be the same.

  67. This Jack Saltman?

    An Interview with Margaret Thatcher

    As part of the election coverage an interview with the leader of the Conservative Party, Margaret Thatcher

    Broadcast details
    ITV, 24 April 1979 (27 minutes)
    Production company
    Thames Television
    Medium
    TV
    Genre
    current affairs
    Producer
    Peter Pagnamenta
    Director
    Jack Saltman

    Editor
    Mike Townson
    Presenter
    Llew Gardner
    Cast
    Margaret Thatcher
    Notes
    This Week/TV Eye – Thatcher

  68. “I’d also be very worried about my safety if I was an innocent brother right now.”

    Sure. But not if my brother was a nuclear scientist who had recently started working for Iran and was executed by Mossad. Just saying …

  69. I’m sure his brother will commit suicide while detained,and a threatening note made from cut-out magazine letters will be found on his person reading:

    “Assa lamb, Ally-kum dear brother, you will never get me now I have left for Iraq. Don’t bother to look for me, as I will be travelling along quiet roads and staying in small camp sites, like this one in Annecy [picture included]. Hasta luego, your hateful brother. PS Allah Akbar.”

    His body will be buried in the Mediterranean in accordance with Islamic tradition, and the letter will be destroyed to prevent it becoming a high value auction item on ebay sold to finance Al-Assad’s balaclava-clad, knife-wielding shabiha death squad.

  70. Alex Thomson has tweeted:
    ‘public prosecutor says dispute over money in family is main lead’

    I wonder who pushed the prosecutor in that direction?

  71. Nuld,

    Why? especially if that was true, I’d be terrified of being “suicided” as a convenient “patsy”.

  72. Nuld,

    The Prosecutor has not said that a dispute over money is the main lead. In fact, according to French media he advised that theory be treated with “caution”. Unless he has changed his mind very recently since speaking earlier today.

  73. They didn’t kill the families of the Iranian scientists. I’d say the wife and grandmother were killed because they were witnesses …
    But who knows, maybe the whole thing was revenge.
    Does anyone know if, under Iraqi law, daughters can inherit? Because if they can, there’d be little point in leaving them alive in the event of a feud over inheritance.

  74. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:11 pm

    Does anyone know if this Jack Saltman chap is the neighbour who allowed the spooks to spy on the family from his home and is he also the source of the inheritance dispute story?

  75. Vague Hague Are you connecting with this link to a Jack Saltman, writer, producer, director? http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1306421/

    If so, I see his work for ITV included
    Editor (1 title)
    1972-1991 This Week (TV series)

    – Guns of Baghdad (1991)
    – Gulf 5 (1991)
    – Dover Air Base, Delaware – Where the Dead Come Home (1991)
    – Rain of Terror (1991)
    – At War in the Gulf (1991)
    See all 59 episodes »

    I still think it’s odd that on the electoral roll since 2002 there has been a succession of different people at his address. My link 8.25 am.

  76. Sir Peter Ricketts would be able to tell us everything.

  77. “Why? especially if that was true, I’d be terrified of being “suicided” as a convenient “patsy”.”

    I don’t think Mossad bothers with patsies. Too much trouble.

  78. BBC Breaking News
    FRANCE SHOOTINGS:Cyclist who discovered crime scene told police he saw a four-wheel-drive car driving away

    Any chance he got le numero? ;)

    and

    FRANCE SHOOTINGS:British cyclist who came across crime scene did not hear shots fired – prosecutor

    There is a live press conference from the prosecutor.

  79. MrChucckles

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:29 pm

    From: http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/09/07/le-procureur-d-annecy-cette-affaire-ressemble-de-plus-en-plus-a-un-guet-apens

    “Selon nos sources, la pression est très forte sur cette affaire du côté des autorités britanniques.”

    I bet it is!

  80. Paris Match reports that the french cyclist killed was a metallurgist in the nuclear industry. But lots of coincidences is not proof of anything.

    Google translate: “Sylvain Mollier … Employed for twenty years in the field of metallurgy – the company is a subsidiary of Cezus Areva manufactures zirconium alloys for nuclear power plants … [on] paternity leave … Avid cyclist … had the habit of tackling the climbs of the region”

    http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Sylvain-Mollier-la-mort-au-tournant-426743/

  81. Hi John G,
    I think you mean Bahai.
    David Kelly’s (R.I.P.) killer…wasn’t Blair? Bloody instigator, anyway.

  82. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:43 pm

    Mary

    Yes. That seems to be him. His address is given in the US court testimony I posted above.

  83. Some new faces at the FCO including Warsi’s.

    Rt Hon William Hague MP Secretary of State for Foreign & Commonwealth Affairs with overall responsibility for the work of the FCO.

    Baroness Warsi was appointed Senior Minister of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 4 September 2012.

    Rt Hon David Lidington MP Minister of State responsible for European issues and NATO.

    Rt Hon Hugo Swire MP was appointed Minister of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 4 September 2012.

    Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint is Minister of State for Trade and Investment. Responsible for cross-Government strategy for trade and inward investment.

    Alistair Burt MP was appointed Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 14 May 2010.

    Mark Simmonds MP was appointed Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 5 September 2012.

  84. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:50 pm

    So anyway.

    Were it the case that Mr Saltman is the sole source of the inheritance dispute then that may well be very significant.

    Were he also the chap who allowed his home to be used by the spookies to spy on the family that would certainly be quite interesting too.

    Mr Saltman was quite a senior journalist, indeed a producer and director at a time when journalism was a much more serious business than it is today, and will have been involved in all manner of stone upturning.

    I’d love to know exactly when he became the family’s neighbour.

  85. Prosecutor at live press conference (on Sky News now) says he has no knowledge of ‘inheritance dispute’. Says another police source said there was a “dispute over money”. But he knows nothing of inheritance issues.

    Brother rushed to police station (in UK) after he heard on TV his brother was dead in France. Was looking for information.

  86. Vague Hague,

    “I’d love to know exactly when he became the family’s neighbour.”

    When he was ordered to?

  87. All roads will lead to Iran.

  88. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:07 pm

    The MSM’s conspiracy theory that there was an inheritance dispute has been denied by the brother and the family’s accountant. The brother has spoken to police, according to French prosecutor.

    Hey ho.

  89. David Landy

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:09 pm

    @Jives

    My thoughts exactly.

  90. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:21 pm

    Had to laugh at Jon Sopal.

    Earlier in the day he was spouting on about how quiet and isolated was the area of the killing – how you could spend all day there without meeting another soul.

    Just now he’s saying on reports identifying a vehicle that it could be anything such was the traffic.

    He did at least have the decency to grimace. That’s what they pay them so much of our money for, I suppose – Their acting ability. It certainly ain’t journalistic flair or even the mildest of curiousity.

    Anyway, nice to see that Harry is back in the baby bombing business. You just can’t take people seriously when they’re flashing their bum.

  91. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:36 pm

    Gavin Essler on BBC news still headlining with the inheritance row conspiracy theory.

    Truly disgraceful stuff.

  92. Nuld,

    If the brother is innocent then he is already by definition being used as a convenient patsy by the MSM. Just not a dead one.

  93. A lot of contradictory information seems to have been put out concerning Saad Al-Hilli’s background. I think Dr Kelly was murdered because of his knowledge of the arms to Iraq scandal, super gun, nukes etc. and most importantly he was going to write a book. Does anybody know if Al-Hilli had any connections with the arms to Iraq scandal?

  94. Daily Mail now running with

    ‘I’ve got nothing to do with it': Brother of Iraq-born businessman executed with wife and mother-in-law in front of daughters in French Alps denies there was family feud over ‘financial matters’

    Father named as Saad Al-Hilli, a Baghdad-born businessman who lived with his family in Claygate, Surrey
    He was killed alongside his wife Ikbal and her mother during caravan holiday to Lake Annecy, in eastern France
    The Al-Hilli’s seven-year-old daughter, Zainab, is in a coma after suffering fractured skull and a bullet in the shoulder
    Her sister, Zeena, four, escaped unscathed after hiding beneath her mother’s legs for eight hours
    Cyclist Sylvain Mollier, 45, a father-of-three, was shot dead after disturbing the multiple killings
    British and French police are investigating whether murders were professional hit
    Mr Al-Hilli’s brother denies having anything to do with the killings and insists there was no family feud
    Forensics police examine 15 bullet casings to see if family was targeted by more than one assassin
    Police searching for man in dark shirt driving 4×4 that witnesses saw speeding away from the area

  95. CE soul-brother Neil, in his post of 7.55am (did he get paid overtime?) comes out with the now ususal sneer (I nearly said smear..) about “conspiracy theories”.

    Funny how quite a few “conspiracy theories” in the last century turned out to have been completely accurate when, years afterwards, government record were opened or participants wrote their memoirs or otherwise spilled the beans.

    Anyway, if one is willing to consider ALL hypotheses (and you are, Neil, aren’t you..) then I don’t quite see why the hypothesis of a targeted killing should be dismissed out of hand.

    Probably only a lot more info on the murdered man’s background and activities (when exactly did he come to the UK, under which circumstances and with what status, what was the precise nature of his work, was he in touch with foreign powers, etc, etc) will lead us to the correct hypothesis.

  96. Villager, you’re right. I quickly pasted that which probably means the source got it wrong too. There is a big difference with the Bahai faith and the Ba’athist party. Thanks for the correction.

  97. John, pleasure–small matter.

    Btw, the Canadians have decided to escalate the game and close their embassy in Iran. Who’s next? Sorry, for the distraction, but now that Iraq is “done”, Afghan’s deadline fast-approaching, let’s all get ready for Iran.

  98. I’ve just watched the BBC news – this was the lead item but during the entire report the words “Iraq” or “Iraqi” were never used, except briefly once on a map of Europe where the country was one of several highlighted. The commentary over the map said that the victim has “business interests in Baghdad”.
    Despite saying that there are “lots of lines of inquiry emerging”, the only theory mentioned was the family feud. Looks like our famous “free media” are being firmly gagged.

  99. Nuid, apologies for referring to you as nuld :-)

  100. @ Vague Hague

    The address given in your 1999 court document was sold in 2007.

    The following document is from 2012
    http://www.capelfieldsurgery.co.uk/website/H81109/files/Enclosure_1.pdf

    which does indeed abut the address of the deceased.

  101. According to an Iraqi doctor who declined to be named, Saad Al-Hilli was working with British Intelligence agents trying to persuade Iraqi commanders to issue instructions to their forces in the field to surrender before the US-imposed 2003 deadline for President Saddam to leave the country expired. An attempt was made to isolate those in Saddam’s immediate circle in Baghdad and negate orders they would give to Iraqi commanders situated in bunkers elsewhere in Iraq.

  102. @Monty W

    …which (2012 doc) was last sold in October 2005

    The address of the company,33 Foley Road KT10 0LU, seems to be the accountants but is given as the address of Ikbal Al-Saffar, rather than 26 Oaken Lane.

    The only source which names the wife as Ikbal Al-Saffar is the Scottish Daily Record

  103. “According to an Iraqi doctor who declined to be named, Saad Al-Hilli was working with British Intelligence agents trying to persuade Iraqi commanders to issue instructions to their forces in the field to surrender …”

    Which would mean he had enemies in Iraq

  104. “apologies for referring to you as nuld”

    No worries :)

  105. Sad to see the caravan parked up. The Al Hilli home. It was last sold in 2004.

    http://goo.gl/maps/n5TfT

  106. Chaff is being spread: Jack Saltman, the neighbour, on how ‘Special Branch’ used his driveway…well how did he know they were Branch? I mean come on… For one thing, Special Branch doesn’t even exist any more under that name!

  107. Statement from Surrey Satellite Technology, a private limited company now owned by Astrium, an EADS company.

    http://www.sstl.co.uk/news-and-events?story=2054

    Astrium {http://www.astrium.eads.net/en/our-partners/}

  108. Yes indeed Nuid and I am trying to establish an Al-Hilli connection to Chalabi and also ‘curveball’ – Chalabi is connected to the Al Wefaq National Islamic Society which has connections to Hezbollah.

    Chalabi is possibly coordinating intelligence from Syria to Iran.

  109. My first thought when reading about this was that maybe the family witnessed an accident, someone knocking cyclist off then finished them off with gun, just as family round corner in car and see what’s happening, they try to back away but get stuck and are shot so they can’t be witnesses to attack on cyclist, little girl gets out and tries to run away but is shot, beaten and left for dead, attackers lean into car through smashed window to make sure everyone dead, at same time leaning on central locking, they miss little girl hiding and drive off before anyone else arrives.

  110. My half baked made up conspiracy theory is that the victim was on the run, taking a holiday when the kids are supposed to be back at school, camp near switerland, rendezvous with someone before breaking for the border. Intercepted.

    And made up stuff #2 – the reason why the girl wasn’t found was because the first handler on scene had been told that all targets had been neutralised and so no need to open the car to confirm.

    Can’t make up stuff #1 – how can the other girl be outside the locked car, shot and beaten?

    Questions I find interesting #1 – how far must the RAF cyclist have been behind the french cyclist who got shot for it all to happen before he caught up.

  111. N_

    Not quite sure what your point is.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about what you call the police/spook liaison outfit. Mr Saltman will have known them as SB throughout his working life. Who cares what they’re called.

    He seems to have been quite a substantial journalist in his day, with all that that entails and fond of uncovering political “scandal”.

    He’s not just the usual neighbour that turns up of these occasions.

    Do some research.

  112. makes ya proud init.
    der bbc and der telegraph say may bee der bruver dunnit over a dispute about a house in spain.
    or car jacking gone bad..maybe drugs.
    maybe frank mi6 gardner says we may never no innit.

    funny old world perfect location the french are useless and are very good at cover up’s.
    mi6,mossad job using the tried and tested method the double tap mozambique drill.

    how lucky of RAF hero on a push bike sounds like a bad script from midsomer murders.
    just happened to live in the area never heard gunshots but was riding around a car park.
    all that lovely landscape and he is hanging around a carpack.
    the dead man worked for the raf and the raf found him with a hole in the head.
    but it must be the brother cos der bbc say’s he is a suspect.
    funny old world .

  113. @Mary
    Small coincidence…the CEO of SSST of Guildford who surprisingly volunteered that Al-Hilli was a contractor there, Dr Mike Perkins, is a member of the Footdown Esher Fifteen. (Claygate being part of Esher). Another surprising member of this select group is the Deputy Chief Constable of Wiltshire, Mike Veale, whose police jobs have always been in the West country. Al-Hilli’s other firm was in Wiltshire (Swindon).
    http://www.footdown.com/4463/how-footdown-helps-matt-perkins-to-be-a-better-leader/
    Another Perkins’ company at the same address in Guildford is DMC INTERNATIONAL IMAGING LTD

  114. @N_ – thanks for the explanation – hadn’t heard of the place.
    You said “If the queen went to Fort Monckton before she flew up to Balmoral, as is alleged, that would give the game away a bit, though.”.
    I didn’t get the joke.
    Still don’t actually :-(

  115. Further coincidence….
    One of the directors of Surrey Satellite Technology is none other than Air Marshal Sir Joe French….September dossier, Chief of Defence Intelligence, Invasion of Iraq, JIC, Hutton Inquiry etc etc.
    Appointed 30 Sept 2011.
    Founded by Professor Sir Martin Sweeting OBE FRS.
    http://blog.sstl.co.uk/uploads/Sweetingbio.pdf

  116. SSTL aims to disrupt Russian and Chinese intelligence gathering over Syria. Once Russia/China are blinded a drone will be sent into Syria to disperse WMD (nerve agent/bio weapon) over a large population centre. Syrian government will be blamed and NATO will have it’s pretext for an all out attack. Simples.

  117. some rumours from tartus area suggest a russian orderly move from land to sea.
    looks like putin has heard some bio gas intel or is running away anyway.
    maybe he will draw a line in the sand or in the tarmac just outside moscow when nato come calling to free the poor pussy riot innocents.
    nothing to do with oil or gas just about the freedom to allow pop singers to abuse themselves in church without being arrested.

  118. Hello all, and Craig!

    I have been HOT on this case for the last two days.

    I have been archiving info since the DA notice.

    I have hoovered up much info since the guillotine came down, far too much to list here.

    I believe my due diligence will blow your mind:

    As you all know, all is not what it seems.

    Start here: page 2 to the end

    Heavy stuff, but easy to digest!

    http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221659&page=2

  119. Anyone else puzzled why the “Swedish mother-in-law” is never named? These people would all have had passports with them, either at the campsite or on their person.
    Daily Mail: “Police praised the bravery of the ‘nerves of steel’ shown by the British cyclist who telephoned for help on the day of the shootings, and who has been ‘unable to sleep’ since Wednesday’s attack”

  120. Felix I put this on the Derailed thread by mistake.

    8 Sep, 2012 – 7:33 am
    Good digging Felix. Keep that spade sharpened.

    Footdown sounds like a club for runners but it gives me the creeps.
    Seems to have a common purpose feel, combined with the meme of entrepreneurship and ACPO for good measure. I do not like clubs.

    See Mike Roe, another senior copper. http://www.footdown.com/about/meet-the-team/mike-roe/

    I still keep thinking of the little girls left behind without a Mummy or Daddy.

  121. I was looking to see whether the mother-in-law lived at the address. It is strange that Mr Al Hilli’s wife is not on the electoral roll. There are only entries for him and his brother.

    http://www.192.com/all/search/?sk=0bae894a-c7b5-475d-ac99-ff012eef9f14&location=Claygate&looking_for=Hilli

  122. Surrey Police, involved in this case, were considering joining a joint initiative with West Midlands Police to hand over some of their functions to private firms including G4S. This plan was dropped like a hot potato when the G4S Olympics fiasco was revealed but cost £801,500.

    Surrey council tax payers are now left with a £160,000 bill. The Home Office and West Midlands police are sharing the remainder, ie over £320,000 each. What a farce and what a waste of public money. Well done St Theresa and the two Chief Constables concerned. The Surrey Chief Constable Mark Rowley who started it off is now at the Met as an Assistant Chief Commissioner having failed to get the job as head of the National Crime Agency. There’s a name to conjure with.

    Source Surrey Advertiser 7 Sept and Oct 14 and 21 2011.

  123. @Mary : speaking from personal experience, I wouldn’t perhaps read too much into the strange things you sometimes find on the electoral rolls – on checking out, in the past, my own entry and those of some family members I found all kinds of names of people I’d never heard of and who certainly didn’t live there. Cock-up rather than conspiracy, I should imagine.

  124. @Vague Hague N_

    Not quite sure what your point is.

    It was there in the first line: Saltman is spreading chaff.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about what you call the police/spook liaison outfit. Mr Saltman will have known them as SB throughout his working life. Who cares what they’re called.

    I hope you’re not believing too much of what he’s saying. This guy will know his SB from his SIB, for sure.

    He seems to have been quite a substantial journalist in his day, with all that that entails and fond of uncovering political “scandal”.

    I know.

    He’s not just the usual neighbour that turns up of these occasions.”

    I’d expect someone to pop up locally and do the job he’s doing. You’d be surprised how many ‘loyal’ types with MI6 or MI5 records there are around.

    However, you’re right.

    Saltman worked on the Martin Luther King case, etc.

  125. Anyone else puzzled why the “Swedish mother-in-law” is never named?

    The elderly lady in the car is unlikely to be the mother-in-law. The 4-year old daughter Zeena has apparently identified all the occupants of the car, except the elderly lady, whom she did not know.

  126. Click here for some info on Jack Saltman’s family background.

    A few Jacks get mentioned there. The one who’s been gobbing off about Saad al-Hilli is, and who produced the documentary on Kurt Waldheim and the mock trial of James Earl Ray (still in jail for the MLK assassination, a crime of which many believe him to be innocent), is described in the article as the son of Solomon Saltman.

  127. If it was an assassination, maybe the female line were the targets for some reason. Just speculating.

  128. Oops – sorry – of course James Earl Ray is not still in jail; he died in 1998. I was getting my wires crossed with Sirhan Sirhan, the Palestinian guy who is still in jail.

  129. @MJ
    I now notice that the “mother-in-law” is named in a few select places – eg The Sun and now the Daily Mail
    The Scotland Yard Blogspot (all one word)is gathering a nice file of stories and inconsistencies. The latest blogpost there notes the Mother-in-law,as reported,Suhaila Al-Allaf of Hålvägen 6, Tumba, a suburb of Stockholm. Who put the name into the public domain?

  130. N_ However did you find that? Don’t the Jews love their genealogy. So boring and self obsessed. You should have warned us that it was 33125 words!

    I found these mentions of a Jack Saltman and some others which were not relevant.

    I forgot to ask Manny about his brother Solomon; I had heard vaguely that he had a son who had made a name for himself in television. Sometime later I checked the British Museum catalogue and discovered that Jack Saltman had written the script for a television play on the notorious Waldheim. Returning to Manny – I was beginning to feel more and more like an inexperienced barrister cross-examining a reluctant witness. His replies became crisper and icier. I wished him a Happy New Year, not “reciprocated”, and rang off. Later I drew up a table incorporating the information given by Miss Kalson and Manny and posted it to him, asking for his comments, amendments and additions. My strong suspicion that he wouldn’t reply was justified. I think he was trying to convey to me: “None of you ever had time for us when we needed you. And now, thank God, I don’t need you at all and won’t be bothered with you”.

    and

    In view of the frequent spy-scares at the time, Izzy was playing with fire. The affair dragged on for some considerable time. In the end, Izzy and my grandfather were partially successful. Izzy was in fact drafted into the 11th Lincolnshire Regiment (as appears in the British Jewry Roll of Honour), but was allowed to serve his time within the confines of the United Kingdom. So he, too, had a “good war”. What a contrast to poor Jack Saltman, who could of course have claimed exemption on similar grounds !
    ~~~~~
    The latter Jack was killed at Ypres in WWI.

    Thanks anyway.

  131. The guy who produced the Kurt Waldheim documentary is the same Jack Saltman who lives in Claygate. Son of Solomon Saltman.

    He must have made quite a few connections doing the James Earl Ray mock trial documentary.

    He also gave evidence at the 1999 civil trial, at which the jury decided that James Earl Ray did not shoot Martin Luther King. The transcript of that trial is here.. That’s definitely the right Jack – he even gives his address in Claygate.

  132. @Mary : speaking from personal experience, I wouldn’t perhaps read too much into the strange things you sometimes find on the electoral rolls

    Spot on Joe- if Mr al-Hilli had a Swedish mother in law his wife was very likely a Swedish citizen as well. Swedish citizens resident in the UK have no right to vote in UK general elections- they may only vote in Euro elections and (after they’ve been on this list for 10 years)they also acquire the right to vote in local elections. In all probability therefore, the wife wouldn’t appear on the main electoral roll.

  133. Old Mark. I also have the same rights as his assumed Swedish wife, and I’m on the electoral register, marked with a K.
    What was so special about the elderly Swedish victim that nobody dares to name her?

  134. I thought Swedish citizens living in the UK could vote in local elections without there being a years of residence rule, but am ready to stand corrected!

    They can also vote in EU elections, but only if they fill in a special form giving up their right to vote in EU elections in their country of citizenship.

    Residents in the UK who are citizens of EU member states Ireland, Cyprus or Malta can vote in any UK election they want.

  135. Hilli assassination: If true and a d-notice has been placed, then we can say there is more than meets the eye. Fact that the main so-called trusted papers/websites (BBC, Telegraph guardian etc) are pushing out stories to do with robbery-gone-wrong, brothers involvement or Baath party connections..means we will never be told what actually happened and its simply a cover up job now…the actual killers will never be found..even if they were known, or get to be known, by French/Uk authorities. This is the world we live in…creating perceptions and controlling people via news/media outlets which only push out facts to placate. Sadly I hope not, but this will be a case where in time we will be told the bizarre murder was never solved.

  136. Why were the family at the end of a road that only continued as a trail that only walkers or two wheeled vehicles could use (the mother in law was 74 – ok she could be a fit 74 but a walk seems unlikely – the father did not look like a walker either – I know mention of picnic spot has been made but it doesn’t look like one to me – I think you have to go up a long way from that spot to get nice views of Mont Blanc or the lake). It looks like some sort of an arranged meet-up where the party they were meeting could leave by motorbike knowing they could not be followed by car – either the family’s or anyone following them in a car – especially as there are a lot of trails in that forest! But then why all the family?

  137. Sorry to sound pessimistic but…

    The suspicion in this is huge, and there are many curious facts listed above. Investigations may or may not bear fruit, but what will become of it?

    Dr Kelly, J.C. De Menezes, even the entire Iraq war and literally countless other events – all despicable crimes, leaving a trail of clues that are diligently followed by a few. The real villains never answer for it. The headlines dry up and so does public interest, leaving it a footnote in history that no longer even needs ‘deleted’ as the mere utterance of it marks you out as a conspiracy nut.

    It’s fascinating to follow the clues in this case, but I fear that’s all it is – a game of amateur detective with no real outcome.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying people should quit pulling this apart, and with urgency before the traces are kicked over and the official narrative is settled upon, but is anyone following this with more than merely a sense of outrage – does anyone actually expect any justice (real justice, not the stringing up of a fall-guy) could ever emerge? Does anyone even imagine that it will affect future actions, beyond the culprit’s ‘lessons learned’ in how to erase people with less public fuss while retaining the message that is being sent?

  138. anyone happen to know if Mr al-Hilli was Sunni or Shia?

  139. The important point, so far as Islamic politics is concerned, is that some Muslims claim that if the victim was neither in the safety of (UK) guest hospitality or (Iraqi) home hospitality, murder is more acceptable. This ignores the emphasis the Qur’an constantly places on assisting the traveller.
    N.B. US=UK=IS=political Islam in the New World Order.

  140. “anyone happen to know if Mr al-Hilli was Sunni or Shia?”
    .
    If the family was really from Hilla, then he will have been Shi’a. Probably a Baghdad Shi’a, whose family came from Hilla.

  141. From the Press Conference 3 pm

    All four were shot twice in the head.

    The search of the Al Hilli home is being carried out by the French with the co-operation of the British police. Is that lawful?

    All family members will be questioned including Mr Al Hilli’s brother.

    The French prosecutor (a magistrate) is very choosy about the questions he answers. Gets a bit stroppy if he doesn’t like something.

    How does he know that the family ‘had a very long trip through France’. Being followed perhaps.

    The questions are mostly inaudible to the translator and she says ‘inaudible’ frequently.

    ‘Excellent co-operation with our British counterparts’.

    He doesn’t know if there will be burials. Implication that there will be a cremation?

  142. I just posted on Yahoo about the story being given a D-Notice and someone (a journalist) posted back confirming there had been a d-notice served. His post was removed within 2 minutes.

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/alps-shooti…mt-container-b

  143. 1. CEZUS Ugine employee and bicyclist found dead at scene.

    2. Problem discovered in 1998 with zircaloy cladding produced by CEZUS. Incomplete cladding not revealed until 2000.

    [link to http://www.wise-paris.org

    3. Some of the tubes with faulty cladding may have found their way to market.

    [link to http://www.wise-paris.org

    4. Did any of the faulty cladding end up in Japan, specifically Fukushima?

    5. What did the dead bicyclist know?

  144. The first thing I thought of was Jack Drummond and his family, on aug 4/5 1952, Jack his wife and daughter were murdered at near enough the same place. There has been speculation this years that it was a professional hit. Drummond was a scientist and for years he had been voicing concerns about how dangerous pesticides were.

    He was a much respected and decorated scientist, at the time of his death he was “Apparently” working for Boots, and was researching cures for tropical diseases, whatever he was working on, Boots scrapped the project after his murder.

    I read the book “the Vitamin Murders” about the killing years ago, a French peasant was set up for the murders. Drummond invented the word vitamin, it was he who first really documented the various nutritional benefits of various foods, and for years he was scathing in condemning pesticides as dangerous to human health, and destroying the nutrition of the food.

  145. Is it just me or was that not one of the most bizarre press conferences ever. Very little new info … lots of no answering … lots of “attitude” and excessive verbage … reducing expectations of any result … magistrate giving the impression of having been bollocked by higher ups and told to cut the flow of info to virtually zilch. He even got worked up about the British giving out too much info!! I know he as been stroppy in the past especially about the reports of a white car but this was something else.

  146. Most reassuring from Hague. NOT.

    France Travel Advice

    This advice has been reviewed and reissued with an amendment to the Travel Summary (multiple murder near Lake Annecy). The overall level of the advice has not changed; there are no travel restrictions in place in this travel advice for France.

    (see travel advice legal disclaimer)

    Travel advice for this country
    Travel Summary
    Safety and security
    Local laws and customs
    Entry requirements
    Health
    Natural disasters
    General
    Travel Summary (back to top)

    The multiple murder near Lake Annecy on 5 September is now the subject of a French police investigation. We have no information to suggest that there is a wider threat to British nationals as a result of this tragic incident. We are continuing to monitor the situation closely. If you are in the area, you should follow the advice of the local authorities.

    http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/europe/france1

  147. It also emerged yesterday that Mr al-Hilli had recently become involved in a bitter legal dispute over an inheritance worth more than €1.2million.

    Family friend Zaid Alabdi said: “He told me he had employed lawyers and was involved in a dispute over a lot of money.”

    Iraqi-born Mr Alabdi said the al-Hilli family regularly took summer holidays at the same French campsite.

    [link to http://www.mirror.co.uk

    It appears he’d been living in fear of his life for quite a few months according to his neighbour.
    And as an attempt was made to take the whole family out, it’s more than likely an inheritance issue. Which is what his fear was related to.
    Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9977516

    Why just pistol whip the girl then? She was shot in the shoulder. Did they run out of bullets? They could easily have broken the girl’s neck or slit her throat. And of course they also missed the OTHER girl, who would survive to collect her inheritance.

    Remember, there is a UK govt D notice out forbidding any UK editor from revealing all the sensitive nuclear etc information on this thread.

    The brother is now being set up as a patsy, whilst Mossad or whomever get away with another hit, and no diplomatic incident results.

  148. General Yossi Ben Hanan (chief of defence at Paris Israeli embassy) has been flown from Paris to Chambery Airport according to Press TV. Chambrey is only a short drive from the site of the killing. He was 20 minutes on the tarmac before he left with three extra passengers. The helicopter flew on to Geneva
    Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22864183

    Quelle surprise!?!?! So the Kidon team comprised three. Pretty much as I thought.

    NB

    IF TRUE THE ABOVE COULD BE MEGA IMPORTANT

    A KIDON TEAM IS A MODSAD ASSASSINATION TEAM

    POSSIBLY BEING FLOWN TO DIPLOMATIC SAFETY

  149. Now the story is being pushed that this is to do with money/family:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19514794

    Wow – that’s taking a family feud to extreme lengths.

    Not sure I believe the DA Notice now, as it would have no affect on international press. Although a lot of sites seem to be refering to it, the only source seems to be the IndyMedia story, by an anon writer. I’ve asked those I know in the press and the media and they’ve heard nothing about this, including some that run social media for big media corps, and who normally receive this sort of info.

    True about the DA notice, but I suspect that there is indeed one in effect. Look at how many spooks were scrambled – 20. A top Israeli landing very near the scene by helicopter, and spiriting out 3 presumably fellow Israelis to Geneva? The deceased former Iraqi nuclear expert well known to the Brit security services who had at least once in the past staked out his house. Nope, I’m satisfied the DA notice is real.

  150. Technology swap?
    or
    Wrong place at the wrong time…

    don’t fcuk with the french, brits or mossad
    :/
    Quoting: BuggedOut

    They were all in the remote woods..

    The Iraqi’s (Drones, aerial technology) (AMS 1087)
    The French, Nuclear fuel, Zirconium (Cyzus)
    The Brit, (Royal Air Force)

    Now, why they met, is another question…

    Why? How about this:

    [link to http://www.liveleak.com

    Sounds like Zircaloy has a long history of failure. Who could be making the fuel rods for Iran?

  151. General Yossi Ben Hanan (chief of defence at Paris Israeli embassy) has been flown from Paris to Chambery Airport according to Press TV. Chambrey is only a short drive from the site of the killing. He was 20 minutes on the tarmac before he left with three extra passengers. The helicopter flew on to Geneva
    Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22864183

    Quelle surprise!?!?! So the Kidon team comprised three. Pretty much as I thought.
    Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21335503

    [link to en.wikipedia.org]

    Head of SIBAT, the Israeli Defense Ministry’s developing countries defense assistance division. Is France a developing country? Not.

  152. @Mary

    Muslims aren’t allowed to be cremated. They must be buried before the next sunset after they have died.

    E.g. after Dodi Fayed was murdered with Princess Diana and Henri Paul in Paris, shortly after midnight, his body was flown back to Britain and buried on the same day.

  153. SAH worked for SSTL:

    “Surrey Satellite Technology Limited (SSTL) is the world’s leading small satellite company, delivering operational space missions for a range of applications including Earth observation, science and communications. The Company designs, manufactures and operates high performance satellites and ground systems for a fraction of the price normally associated with space missions, with 500 staff working on turnkey satellite platforms, space-proven satellite subsystems and optical instruments.”

  154. http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/29/s…kicks-in-21-m/

    Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd. (SSTL) has plans to beef up planetary monitoring capabilities with its new NovaSAR satellite, and the company just received £21 million from the UK government to make it happen. NovaSAR works using synthetic aperture radar, so it can see through clouds (unlike optical satellites) and offers its services for £45 million — or 20 percent of the cost of existing space radar platforms. With governmental funding in hand, SSTL can begin to develop and build its first such satellite, and the plan is to put it in orbit in two or three years. If NovaSAR does what it’s been designed to do, SSTL hopes it can sell and launch enough of them so that any place on earth can be under its gaze in less than 24 hours. We’re all for improving disaster relief efforts, but if you spy these sats overhead on a clear night, we recommend keeping an ear to the ground in case they’re guiding an army of Alpha Dogs your way.

  155. Irony of the word “chevaline”, in light of what has happened near Chevaline, France:

    [link to http://www.cnduk.org

    [link to en.wikipedia.org]

    CND HERE

    http://www.cnduk.org/information/bri…valine-scandal

    Notice the word chevaline above

    It is where the hit took place!

    CND Special Report: The next Chevaline scandal?

    This report has been assembled by Alan Simpson, MP for Nottingham South and specialist staff (William Peden, CND Parliamentary Officer and Louise Edge, CND Press Officer) from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND), based on research undertaken over the last five years.

  156. “General Yossi Ben Hanan (chief of defence at Paris Israeli embassy) has been flown from Paris to Chambery Airport according to Press TV. Chambrey is only a short drive from the site of the killing. He was 20 minutes on the tarmac before he left with three extra passengers. The helicopter flew on to Geneva”

    Where is the source for this? There is no mention of it on Press TV. People are just making up stuff at this stage.

    There is one aspect of this which I haven’t seen mentioned – where was the 7 year old girl sitting in the car and how did she get out of the car? The four year old has said that she was sitting in the back with her mother and the other woman, so that would only leave the front seat free for the 7 year old. A 7 year old should not be in the front seat of a car. And in the pictures, the passenger door is closed and the window is more or less intact – so how did she get out, if the car doors were locked? Was she in the car at all, or did the parents go there to collect her? If so – why bring the rest of the family.

  157. Now the story morphs into a motorbike at the scene.

    Again it reminds me of Diana, a white UNO, and a motorbike … Actually I am now getting shivers down my back, as in my fictional novel, I used all my research about the Diana Dodi assassination, on that there are credible reports that a motorcycle overtook their Merc, and fired a black ops laser-type light, into the driver’s eyes, blinding him.

    Anyhoos this is the report:

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news…e-3222375.html

    Snip

    A MOTORBIKE may have been used by the killers responsible for gunning down a British family in a French Alpine beauty spot, it has been revealed.
    A British cyclist, who is a former RAF serviceman, has told police he saw a green four-wheel drive car and a motorbike speeding towards the scene before he arrived, police said today.
    It is the first suggestion of another vehicle being involved other than the 4×4.
    The British witness, who gave a seven-year-old girl first aid at the scene, arrived after a French cyclist overtook him and was shot dead. His body was found near the British-registered car.
    “He has a keen sense of observation. This could help us greatly,” a source told French channel M6.
    Eric Maillaud, Annecy prosecutor, told the local Dauphiné Libéré newspaper: “This case looks more and more like an ambush even if we are not sure this is the work of a professional.”
    French authorities were today investigating a possible family involving Saad al-Hilli, who was shot dead with his wife while on holiday, French prosecutors said today.
    Mr al-Hilli, 50, was named as the owner of the BMW discovered in a car park near Chevaline in Haute-Savoie.
    The French authorities said the killings appeared to have been carried out by a professional hitman because of the accuracy of the gunshots.
    Mr Maillaud said a “family drama” had not been ruled out.
    His wife Iqbal, 77-year-old mother-in-law and a passing cyclist were also shot dead.
    The couple’s seven-year-old daughter Zainab and her four-year-old sister Zeena survived but the older girl remains in hospital.
    “This seems to be credible information coming from the British police,” Mr Maillaud told a news agency.
    Police were also expected to appeal for witnesses today after one described a dark green 4×4 vehicle at the crime scene, which was discovered by a British cyclist.
    The rider, a former RAF serviceman, would have almost certainly seen the killer or killer’s car as it fled, a police source said.
    There is only one road to and from the crime scene, and the only other route would be through the mountain on foot or bike, he added.
    However, Sylvie, an inhabitant of Chevaline, the village nearest the crime scene, told BFMTV she was almost knocked off her bike by a panic-stricken motorist in a white car on the road leading to the forest just after the attack.
    “There was a very steep, dangerous bend and a person came round it the other way very, very fast, he was coming straight toward me and only just missed knocking me over,” she said.
    “He appeared to be in total panic and not in control of his vehicle. A white vehicle, a [Peugeot]. I saw it was a dark-haired man with a black shirt or sweater.”
    Detectives have asked for international help from British and Swedish authorities to gather evidence to identify the victims.
    A spokesman for Surrey Police said: “Surrey Police is currently assisting the French authorities and liaising with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office following the deaths of four people near Annecy in southern France yesterday.
    “This is an ongoing investigation being carried out by the French Police and we are unable to confirm any details about the incident.”
    More information also emerged about the quadruple murder this morning, revealing Mr al-Hilli, his wife and mother-in-law were all killed with two bullets each, indicating the work of a marksman.
    Iraqi-born engineer Mr al-Hilli was shot first in the forehead before a second “coup de grace” shot was aimed to ensure he was dead.
    Witnesses reported hearing just 30 seconds of gunfire and police on the scene found 15 spent bullet casings, with no stray bullets.
    The French cyclist, who arrived at the scene after overtaking a British rider, was shot five times after being “in the wrong place at the wrong time”. He was named as 45-year-old father-of-three Sylvain Mollier.
    Eric Maillaud, the Annecy prosecutor, told BFMTV last night: “All the victims died from several bullets, several shots, and all have at least one bullet that has been shot in the head.
    “All avenues are being considered, the most sordid, a family drama … All avenues are being explored.”
    Autopsies on the bodies were taking place today.
    Yesterday, it emerged Mr al-Hilli had expressed concerns to a neighbour before leaving for Le Solitaire du Lac campsite in Saint Jorioz.
    Jack Saltman, 67, said: “He did say something to me which gave me cause to worry a little bit. Before he left he came round and saw me and asked if I would keep an eye on his house.
    “It may be totally irrelevant if this was to be a terrible murderous killing.
    “But I have told the police and if it is relevant they will have it and if it is not relevant then no one will ever know.”
    Mr Saltman refused to elaborate further, but said Mr Hilli’s fears were “definitely not political”.
    Zainab, a pupil at Claygate Primary School, was said to be “stable” in an induced coma in hospital in Grenoble after operations on her fractured skull and a gunshot wound to her shoulder.
    Her younger sister, Zeena, was being looked after in a psychiatric hospital after spending almost eight hours hiding in the car with the bodies of her parents and grandmother.
    Mr Maillaud said she was interviewed last night but had been unable to give officers any more details.
    “We must treat with extreme caution the statements of a traumatised girl,” he said.
    François Daoust, the director of the National Gendarmerie’s Institute of Criminal Research, defended the investigators who failed to find Zeena, 4, when they arrived at the scene.
    “Firefighters and an emergency doctor arrived first. The doctor found four deaths: one cyclist and three adults in the car. He also noted the presence of this girl seriously injured outside. He absolutely did not see this little girl, who was hidden. He also heard nothing,” he told Le Nouvel Observateur.
    “The doctor had distinguished no sign of life. The police also filmed in the car, through the window, and nothing was visible on these images. There was no noise, no movement, and they did not even know that another child was missing.”
    He said that no mistakes had been and no French police procedures would be changed.
    “The mistake is to believe that a crime scene must be processed in minutes in an emergency, and samples can be rushed. It’s not possible. It would jeopardise the investigation,” he said.
    “We will not change protocols due to exceptional circumstances. We have never encountered a case like this, it is totally unique.”
    Mr al-Hilli, who was born in Baghdad, came to Britain with his parents in the 1970s to escape persecution from Saddam Hussein’s Baath party.
    They lived in Pimlico, central London, where Mr al-Hilli’s father, Kadhim, also an engineer, set up his own factory.
    The family moved to a house in Clay-gate in 1984, which became Mr al-Hilli’s own family home when he married his wife, a dentist, and had children. His mother died 10 years ago and his father died last year.
    His brother Zaid, whose family live in nearby Kingston upon Thames, was unavailable for comment but a relation declined to discuss the deaths.
    By Donna Bowater and Henry Samuel Telegraph.co.uk

    End snip

    COMMENTS by anders7777

    1. A British cyclist, who is a former RAF serviceman, has told police he saw a green four-wheel drive car and a motorbike speeding towards the scene before he arrived, police said today.

    So that means RAFman was overtaken by a French cyclist, a 4×4, and a motorbike

    All in a f**king hurry!

    No mention of a white car

    No doubt that was at the head of the trail…

    2. Mr al-Hilli, 50, was named as the owner of the BMW discovered in a car park near Chevaline in Haute-Savoie.

    Is this whacking to do with the word CHAVALINE???

    Bearing in mind the campaign for nuclear disarmament paper posted, and the wiki article.

    Is this the subtext of the killings? CHAVALINE?

    3. Eric Maillaud, Annecy prosecutor, told the local Dauphiné Libéré newspaper: “This case looks more and more like an ambush even if we are not sure this is the work of a professional.”

    Yes it does.

    4. However, Sylvie, an inhabitant of Chevaline, the village nearest the crime scene, told BFMTV she was almost knocked off her bike by a panic-stricken motorist in a white car on the road leading to the forest just after the attack.
    “There was a very steep, dangerous bend and a person came round it the other way very, very fast, he was coming straight toward me and only just missed knocking me over,” she said.
    “He appeared to be in total panic and not in control of his vehicle. A white vehicle, a [Peugeot]. I saw it was a dark-haired man with a black shirt or sweater.”

    So we have a dark green 4×4 – sounds like a British MOD Landrover to me – could they be that stupid?

    We have RAFman plodding up the hill

    We have him being overtaken by Sylvain, with huge links to all the dodgy nuclear industries on this thread

    We have a white car lying in wait

    We have RAFman being overtaken by a motorbike

    Anyone ever see the Charles Bronson film “The Mechanic”? Quite apropos ref motorcycles…

    5. Witnesses reported hearing just 30 seconds of gunfire and police on the scene found 15 spent bullet casings, with no stray bullets.

    Now this is interesting!!!

    Just exactly WHO are these “witnesses”???

    Found 15

    Today 25

    NO STRAY BULLETS!

    and apparently NO BLOOD EITHER…

    and as of last night 30 MAGIC bullets

    6. Yesterday, it emerged Mr al-Hilli had expressed concerns to a neighbour before leaving for Le Solitaire du Lac campsite in Saint Jorioz.
    Jack Saltman, 67, said: “He did say something to me which gave me cause to worry a little bit. Before he left he came round and saw me and asked if I would keep an eye on his house.
    “It may be totally irrelevant if this was to be a terrible murderous killing.
    “But I have told the police and if it is relevant they will have it and if it is not relevant then no one will ever know.”
    Mr Saltman refused to elaborate further, but said Mr Hilli’s fears were “definitely not political”.

    Anyone here heard of SAYANIM???

    Saltman/Saltzman is Jewish name.

    David Saltman – Name Popularity – WhitePages.com
    names.whitepages.com/california/…/ …
    There are no WhitePages members with the name David Saltman. … It is a very popular Jewish name, but is almost equally common among Gentiles in the English-speaking world.
    Family Facts for: Saltzman
    http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname...
    Saltzman Name Meaning. Jewish (Ashkenazic): occupational name for a producer or seller of salt, from …
    SALTZMAN – saltzman meaning – Jewish Genealogy
    http://www.hebrewsurnames.com/SALTZMAN
    SALTZMAN family genealogy and meaning of the Jewish surname SALTZMAN.

    Someone said last night this dodgy geezer was an attention HO, lol.

    I think he was bang on.

    Why should this murky individual pop up in the spook Telegraph and elsewhere, misdirecting things???

    Eh???

    SAYANIM

    Mossad’s One Million Helpers World – The Occidental …
    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/…/Webst...
    26 Mar 2010 – The Labour government’s Jewish (but not necessarily Zionist) Foreign Secretary … This denial of Mossad’s million helpers among Diaspora Jewry studiously failed to …
    Sayanim – Israel’s and Mossad’s Jewish helpers abroad
    radioislam.org/islam/english/…/sayanim. …
    Sayan; Hebrew: helpers, assistants) is a term for a Mossad operative recruited from among the Jewish …
    By Way of Deception – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org/…/By_Way_of_ …
    Ostrovsky claims that Mossad has access to Jewish helpers all around the world called sayanim…

  158. Al Hilli worked on a covert “Iran nuclear program” operation set up by MI5, but in fact he was a double agent working for Iranian security, the Mossad learned of this, and sent documents to Iranian security regarding his real identity, they in turn massacred the family.

    Above from another site, mi5 are removing everything!

    Story changing rapidly. The dead cyclist is said to have worked for a metal manufacturing company. Speculation about the al-Hilli family says they might have been victims of a robbery by a gang of thieves, or witnessed a drug deal.

    [link to http://www.telegraph.co.uk

    Can we assume that the British Embassy’s deputy head of mission in France attends the crime scene for every murder of a British resident in France?

    Cat. Out. Of. Bag.

  159. SSTL is part of EADS (European Aerospace Defence Systems). Think of Hakluyt/Shell/BP et al. Al-Hilli may well have been privy to some very interesting work.

  160. @Anders7777

    Is there a proper source for the Yossi Ben Hanan story?

    It’s doing the rounds as sourced to Press TV. I checked the Press TV website yesterday, and again today, and found no reference to it. In fact they do not appear to be covering the al-Hilli killings at all.

  161. The Yossi Ben Hanan story originally appeared as a comment on Indymedia. It had a link to the Press TV story. However when I tried to check the link was “Not Found”. If someone made up the story they also made up a Press TV URL.

    Fiction or pulled by Press TV after they posted it?

  162. The Yossi Ben Hanan story originally appeared as a comment on Indymedia. It had a link to the Press TV story. However when I tried to check the link was “Not Found”. If someone made up the story they also made up a Press TV URL.

    Fiction or pulled by Press TV after they posted it?

    Pulled. DA NOTICE here, they have their own reasons there.

    Craig, is there any reason some of my posts were not published?

    The ones on SAYANIM and a Kidon team being exfiltrated?

  163. Sorry my fault, they are there, cheers!

    Yes the press conf was just for show, it is clear they want to bury this story.

  164. Was Sylvain meeting SAH in the woods to swap mutual data? Was RAFman tailing Sylvain, and yes he was overtaken, but what are the odds, eh??? IMHO Sylvain was also a target, and the hit happened at a meet.

    Maybe.

  165. This was the URL given for the Press TV source. The comment containing the link (and all other comments) were taken down by Indymedia.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/06/260069/Yossi

  166. Yes N_ I do know about Muslim burials before sundown the same or next day but this French prosecutor seemed to imply that there was some doubt about a burial. I thought cremation so as to get rid.

  167. murdermostfowl

    8 Sep, 2012 - 5:21 pm

    A possible scenario – all my own invention.

    Family has Father and Mother-in-law (72 years old) in front; mother and two kids in back. Murder squad – two or three – pull guns and stop them because the squad wants some information – name of Iraqi contact, secret formula. Four year old hides and is hidden by mother under her skirts; squad order seven year old out of car and mother in law into back so they can deal with father. Seven year old is smashed over head to persuade father to co-operate (quietly – they don’t want visitors).

    Into this comes French cyclist; he promptly tries to escape to get help (or even more bravely, tries to interfere). Squad react and kill him – bang, bang, bang. While gang is distracted, At same time, father flings car into reverse; gets stuck in bank. (My car automatically locks if I go more that 5mph; does his BMW?)

    Squad have to get out now; anybody who heard shots may interfere or call police. Execute everybody; bullets to head. Enough times to kill. Same for seven year old child (already looking half dead), and off squad goes. In comes RAF guy (my army training made me better with gunshots than with sickness!); he saves kid and calls police. Would squad now need a quicker way out of France.

    In passing the translator at the Press Conference isn’t very good (e.g. peur is fear, not fury). Every sympathy; I hate simultaneous translation; much better to leave the original and add subtitles afterwards.

    I will now go back to reading Agatha Christie.

  168. Yes stick to AC, lol, this area is NOT that isolated, cars come and go, hikers, bikers, it is NOT a place to start torturing a child in front of a family, the father for a start would be far too traumatised to give any hurried coherent information. No dice whatsoever on this theory.

  169. A Colonel Mark de Tarle is conducting the ‘search’ of the Al Hilli home with other officers and some from the Surrey police. In view of their terrible record including the Milly Dowler case, I can’t think the latter will be of much assistance. What is going on?

    Anyway, this Colonel is head of the National Gendarmerie. His previous position was Colonel of this regiment. An army colonel running the gendarmerie??

    68e régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique

    Un article de Wikipédia, l’encyclopédie libre.
    Le 68e régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique est une unité de l’armée de terre française. L’actuel régiment est le dernier des régiment d’artillerie d’Afrique encore en activité et est l’héritier des régiments d’artillerie d’Afrique et groupes d’artillerie d’Afrique. Il est à ce titre dépositaire des traditions de l’artillerie d’Afrique et autorisé officiellement depuis 1993 à porter des attributs spécifiques rappelant cet héritage[1].
    (14e) 1999 – 2001 : colonel De Tarlé

    http://encyclo.voila.fr/wiki/68e_r%C3%A9giment_d'artillerie_d'Afrique

    Algeria comes to mind.

  170. This was the URL given for the Press TV source. The comment containing the link (and all other comments) were taken down by Indymedia.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/06/260069/Yossi

    It was also on pinkfish, but swiftly taken down as the DA notice kicked in. If it is true that SAH was indeed a bouble agent, and Mossad betrayed him to the Savak boys, then it kinda fits – the current presstv dearth.

  171. “Algeria comes to mind.”

    Inspector Clouseau comes to mind…

    All sides want this buried.

  172. Al Jazeera Sept 8….(police – UK or French? – crawling over the Claygate house in protective suits)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIXLlUZzY7o

    “..may have been a racist attack of some sort..”
    Oh yeah!

  173. If it was something very simple like a password or a name the father would have been able to give that information quickly. A quick “persuasive” smash of the child’s head doesn’t take any time either.

    Not that I am saying I think that is what actually happened but it still seems possible to me.

    I don’t have enough info on the site myself to know the likely length of time the killers thought they had.

    If I had been in the car I would have started voice record on my phone if I had a chance. Don’t risk video record in case the light comes on alerting the attackers. No attempt seems to have been made to check the mobiles of the victims for many hours after the attack. I have heard it reported there is no cellphone coverage at the location, except by satellite phone. So they couldn’t call for help even if anyone tried to.

  174. French news item here today
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssb1yAE6_hw
    Notice the presence of (ex) Scotland Yard detective Kevin Hurley as expert, who was also given exposure elsewhere on the case by SkyTV, and who “investigated the murder of an Iraqi dissident in Notting Hill in 1986″ , from Thallium poisoning allegedly, pushing the Iraqi exile hit [improbable, just like Norman Baker tried to blame the hit on Dr Kelly on the same groups….]
    Incidentally, Mr Hurley has an iron in the fire: he is running for police commissioner in Surrey.

  175. greenblob32

    8 Sep, 2012 - 6:48 pm

    @ Anon:
    If there was no mobile phone coverage at the site, how did the ex RAF Officer manage to call the ambulance for the injured girl?

  176. What was so special about the elderly Swedish victim that nobody dares to name her?

    Good point Nevermind. Like most of us on this thread, I assume a D Notice is in operation which puts under wraps ‘sensitive’ information- notice how little detail is given in UK reports (compared to French reports) about the nuclear connections of the local cyclist who was also murdered. Perhaps the al-Hilli in laws have connections the PTB would not like to reveal to the great unwashed at this point,lest ‘conspiracy theories’ flourish after the names are released.

  177. greenblob32

    8 Sep, 2012 - 6:49 pm

    [Mod/Jon: fixed other post]

    …sorry, mistyped: “how” not “who”

  178. @ Anon:
    If there was no mobile phone coverage at the site, who did the ex RAF Officer manage to call the ambulance for the injured girl?

    – A very good question if the report is accurate. If just a local blackspot just moving a short distance might get a signal. If he had a satellite phone with him then that’s most certainly unusual.

    Should be possible to check coverage maps for the area. Anyone have the coordinates handy (preferably as a link) for Google Earth/Maps?

  179. Thanks Felix. I knew his name rang a bell. I will not be voting for him or any of the others for that matter.

    Hurley is of the hang ‘em and lock ‘em up persuasion.

    http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/People-want-ex-coppers-military-Police/story-16733490-detail/story.html

  180. Meant to say. Spot the references to Baghdad and Iraq!

  181. Not beyond the bounds of possibility I guess that a genuine ex RAF guy who spent a lot of time cycling in remote areas might have one of these http://www.g-comm.co.uk/product/102_9555-prepaid-airtime-iridium-satphone.html

    Specifications

    * Dimensions: 143 mm (L) x 55 mm (W) x 30 mm (D)
    * Weight: 266g (9.4 oz)

  182. If an intelligence agency were planning an assassination surely in order to get away with it they would need to carry it out at the right time i.e. when there would be another plausible reason for the death other than assassination. Dr Kelly’s suicide was put down to him being depressed about being named as the source for the revelation of the sexing up of the dossier. Did MI6 then use as a screen a family dispute to remove Al-Hilli because he knew something?

  183. @Anon @Anders7777

    Thanks for posting the alleged Press TV URL.

    The rightmost part of the URL, namely ‘Yossi’, doesn’t look accurate. It’s too short. Other Press TV URLs starting ‘http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/06/’, followed by a number, end with a much longer string, usually containing 4 or 5 words summarising the headline.

    The second rightmost part, namely the ‘260069’ after the ‘http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/09/06/’ suggests that if it was posted, then it was posted early in the day. Numbers for other articles I’ve found for 6 Sep 2012 range from 260077 to 260213.

    It’s well known that Indymedia are spooked up to the nines (in fact, they have been since the very beginning) and they don’t like anyone saying anything against Israel, except maybe that they should improve their human rights policy (!)

    I have come across articles in major news sources which implicate Israel in terror attacks and which are very quickly removed, in one case with another article being assigned the same URL as the removed one. So I keep an open mind on this alleged article. If it existed, someone will soon find it and post a screenshot.

    Incidentally, Press TV, as well as being used for certain purposes by Iranian intelligence, also put out some stuff recently that I thought sounded as if its source was Larouchie.

    Speculation aside, what we know is that intelligence agencies post chaff in cases like this. Remember the two versions of the list that Richard Tomlinson was accused of publishing?

    We also know that someone will now have a very nice list of people who have used certain search engines to look for information concerning this alleged article.

  184. I doubt it was the brother, listening to his denial, and coupled with his deceased wives brother stating he was a gently guy who wouldn’t hurt a fly I am inclined to believe him. Additionally it makes no sense to connect him with an obviously well planned attack.

    Armed robbery? Unlikely if the family were Middle Class Brits from Tunbridge Wells, almost impossible once you factor in all the connections.

    The Iraqis? No, as they simply have enough troubles, internal strife and looking after their own backs to send out a team to do this – they also lack the competence and even co-ordination – FFS the country is in total disarray – completely unrealistic.

    UK/US? No – they could have done this far more discreetly and with no mess and in so many ways far closer to home with little comeback. Also I doubt they would gain any advantage and huge potential losses. I would find it almost impossible to believe they would shoot/beat a child either.

    This leaves likely Israel/Iran. Going by the planning Israel put into the Hamas Dubai killing I think one can assume they are extremely competent and they know exactly what they are doing. This discounts their involvement in what looks like a messy state of affairs. But they are targeting Iranian Nuclear Scientists (and our man was likely sympathetic). If I were a betting man though I’d err on the side of caution here.

    Iran? They don’t have a history of this sort of thing as far as I know. As such I find it hard to believe.

    Retired RAF Officer? Probably straight up. But why did it take him 10 minutes to call the services after finding them? 10 minutes is a HUGE amount of time. Did he make any calls before calling the emergency services?

    Whoever did this obviously wanted to send a message, else, a bomb under the car/car accident (for example) would be a far easier and less troublesome scenario. But message to whom?

    The location of the attack was I reckon meticulously planned out to allow a quick exit and with little or no witnesses at short notice as I think our man only decided a few days before the trip to go on holiday to somewhere he’d never been before. Was he meeting handlers who turned out to be his assassins?

    This is truly a bizarre case.

  185. When I first tried the URL and got “not found”, I assumed it had maybe been accidentally truncated during cut and paste. But then I couldn’t find it with a search.

    Curiously a google search for that URL earlier showed it quoted nowhere at all on the net any more but it was still in my history. It seemed to be immediately after it was posted to Indymedia that the thread was pulled.

    I thought I saw the text of the alleged article (rather than the summary now posted) but if I did see that somewhere, I can’t find it now.

  186. “IMHO Sylvain was also a target, and the hit happened at a meet.”

    This might explain why (e.g.) the Israelis waited until the two men met to kill both of them rather than killing al Hilli on his own in the UK – if al Hilli was a double agent working for Iran. Maybe they wanted to confirm that they were meeting and exchanging information before they took action. They may have killed the entire family (as they thought) as a warning to others thinking of doing the same. It’s not necessarily a messy operation if the eight year old was down with three skull fractures and they assumed she was dead. And didn’t know about the four year old in the back of the car, or maybe didn’t care about her too much.

    The only fly in the ointment for them would have been the impending arrival of the ex-RAF man – but they got away anyway, without being identified. So they’d be happy enough. Were they taken to Geneva airport by helicopter by General Yossi Ben Hanan? He had three extra passengers in his helicopter when he left? That would allow for two in a car and one on a motobike.

    The four year old claims not to know the older Swedish woman. But it’s not impossible that the grandmother (assuming it was a grandmother) hadn’t met the family for 3-4 years. If she had met the family when the four year old was only one, the four year old wouldn’t remember.

  187. I searched yesterday on PressTV for “Annecy”, “France” “shooting” etc and found absolutely nothing.

  188. “But why did it take him 10 minutes to call the services after finding them?”

    He’s supposed to have been staunching the eight-year-old’s bleeding and making sure her airways were open. And then there’s the business about him smashing a window and turning off the engine.

    From the rear wheel it looks like the driver was frantically trying to reverse. The road doesn’t go anywhere (only suitable for bikes and walkers) so he could only escape in one direction.

  189. @Anon

    Yes, truncation could be it, but it would be extremely unusual for a Press TV URL of this kind to contain the name of someone who is not much better known than Ben Hanan. I looked at several for the given date, and the only name I found of any kind was “Blair”!

    This looks fake.

    But my training says to keep an open mind! :-)

    Does anyone reading this believe that they saw the Press TV page referred to?

    If so, please get it out of your cache and save it, preferably as .mht, post it somewhere, and post a link to it here.

    (BTW according to Haaretz, Hanan is chief of the Israeli Defence Ministry’s delegations across Europe.)

  190. @ Anon:
    If there was no mobile phone coverage at the site, who did the ex RAF Officer manage to call the ambulance for the injured girl?

    SEMAPHORE

  191. I was thinking this afternoon about this tragic family and that if we in the West had not inflicted sanctions and multiple wars on Iraq and other countries in the region for decades on end, and if we had not armed Saddam, Mr Al Hilli and his wife and young family might be leading a fulfilled life in Baghdad.

    This garbage was in the Guardian today.

    ‘Did the Iraq Dossier Damage Democracy?’

    Charles Falconer: ‘Part of the issue about the use of force in Iraq is that, ultimately, we didn’t have a consensus in the country to support it, and once force was used against the wishes of a huge section of civic society, all the things said before became a proxy for going to war with a divided nation. It’s the price you pay for going to war without proper support.’

    Yes, to hell with democracy…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/07/did-iraq-dossier-damage-democracy

    Related:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/12/iraq-dossier-case-for-war

  192. Thanks N and all for the detailed feedback.

    It is extremely odd the presstv have gone silent on this. Unless the rumour is true about an Iranian hit following Mossad informing them of a situation brewing. There is no doubt an experienced team did it, and my bet is a Kidon team based in Europe. It certainly looks to me like a rendezvous and an ambush, and I think there were two targets, SAH and Sylvain.

  193. I also note the Swedish press seems unconcerned that an alleged Swedish citizen, (possibly two) has been assassinated in France if the name Al-Allaf is correct.

  194. “I would find it almost impossible to believe they would shoot/beat a child either.” Durak, 8th Sept 2012, 7:33pm.

    Everything in your excellent post makes sense, I think. But surely, hired assassins/ex-Special Forces mercenaries will kill anyone they need to/are paid to, regardless. Think of how they operate in Africa and elsewhere. What I mean is, those who operate as hired killers for the USA/UK/all other countries are pretty similar to one another – sometimes they are acting for one state, then another, then another. They are all a bunch of [insert syncretic multilingual expletive of choice and make it bloody, won’t you?] It’s not ‘Munich’ (the film) where the girl picks up the bomb/’phone and the (after all, they have a heart) MOSSAD operatives stop. These people, for example, massacre entire villages and then blame it on some other grouping. They are the Tonton Macoute.

  195. I wouldn’t take it as necessarily true that the unnamed ‘ex-RAF’ guy was on a bicycle.

    Either as a member of a protection unit, or as a member of the assassination team, he may have got stranded in the area solely because of a fuck-up.

    If he was Brit special forces, that would explain why he hasn’t been named.

    It would also explain why he had, er, a better than usual communications capability.

    Not that I necessarily believe that last bit. If someone is interested in checking the mobile phone issue, why not go to the main French phone companies’ websites and check for coverage at those coordinates?

  196. The thing about 10 minutes before the call to emergency services might be one of those details that in the end proves not strictly correct. If he was running around checking firstly that it was safe to approach, then secondly, on all the people to see if they were alive and needed CPR, etc. and trying to save the girl, it might well have taken him a few minutes – experienced ex-military, possibly used in the past to dealing with battlefield trauma – to call. Maybe he was screaming for help, who knows? Then, who knows, maybe he had difficulty getting a signal. We don’t know. I wouldn’t read too much into, or get tied-up in, these details.

    The key question, it seems to me, is, precisely what was Mr Al Hilli working on and what connections might he have had?

  197. Even if you cant get phone signal in areas does the emrgency services number not always work?

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