The Al-Hilli Conundrum

by craig on September 10, 2012 12:43 pm in Uncategorized

My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.

Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.

In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.

My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?

Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:

From Janesmith101

All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police

Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.

Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.

What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?

As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.

http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html

The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.

Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.

An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.

I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.

I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.

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  1. “It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.”

    Yep, we’re thrashing around in the dark, mostly. But perhaps one bit here, and one bit there, will come together at some stage and there’ll be a lightbulb moment. 😉

  2. That media discourses are all ignoring the possibility it might be a Mossad hit job is enough to make me suspicious. It surely has to be high on the list of possible explanations.

  3. “How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”

  4. My theory.

    The ex-RAF cylcist was said to be just behind the French cyclist Mollier. I think he was shadowing him. I think MI5 knew that there was some kind of meeting between Mollier and Iranian agents. I think the French are very embarrassed by what looks like a worker of a state owned nuclear group selling know-how to help Iran make nuclear warheads. Especially as it highlights the substantial Iranian money invested in France’s nuclear industry. I suspect Al-Hilli, who was Shia and no doubt had mixed feelings about the UK and US after the Iraq war, and who came across Zirconium in his work with micro satellites, was perhaps being used by the Iranians to simply verify the industrial information.

    Whether it was a hawkish Israel taking matters into its own hands, or an Iranian punishment for Mollier or Al-Hilli being double agents, I am not sure.

    On the one hand, the attack is stark and brutal and conspicuous, and involving the murder of French and British nationals. It seems strange that Israel would not liase with its allies to create a more discreet series of arrests.

    But equally, the manner of the attack seems very different to the spate of Iranian attacks on Israeli targets, which are frankly amateur and exclusively involving explosives.

    Also, the fact that Chevalier was the codename for a nuclear weapons project where the UK realised they couldn’t rely on the US to retaliate if the Soveits attacked them, seems too coincidental not to perhaps be a bit of Mossad jiggery pokery.

    This hit, after all, could be seen as the Israelis saying that they can no longer rely on the West to protect it from nuclear annihilation, and that it must go it alone. With the current lot in charge of Israel, one can imagine their line and ours is very different.

  5. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jan/08/iran.observerpolitics

    This is exactly what I mean, and the sort of thing that would have fractured UK and Israeli defense relations to the point where something like the Al-Hilli massacre could happen.

  6. a few years ago many bio scientist died in strange circumstances in UK and Iraq. Israel does not want any arab nation to modernise, they bomb them into the stone age.

    Its great how they have a nice cover story for this recent killing, a family disupte.

  7. Its little known fact that David Cameron once went to south africa to acquire nukes for Israel, he went there with one David Kelly

  8. The stories being bandied around by the mainstream media and official sources are changing faster than new posts were added to the earlier thread – i.e how many bullets each, one or two weapons etc etc. The two ‘facts’ that have remained constant in the face of so much speculation and assumption are the ‘retired RAF’ man who ‘happened upon the scene’ and the dead cyclist who ’apparently stumbled across the attack’.
    I think it’s probable neither of these statements are true.

  9. to see if israeli fingerprints are on this crime, see what sort of news management has occurred and also which day it was done. anyone remember the flotilla that Israel slaughtered, to cover this stroy up , some random person drover around devon on a killing spree this ensured that the israeli crimes were “wiped off” the front page and replaced by crazy Englishman roaming devon.

  10. @Craig, you old Machiavellin shill you! (wink)

    You said: Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.

    The guy would have had to be better than Calamity Jane!

    7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.

    Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.

    Right!

  11. murdermostfowl

    10 Sep, 2012 - 2:05 pm

    Why would agents have a meeting? Library sized amounts of information can be left on a joint newly created email, or on many-gigabyte sized micro-sd under an agreed stone. .

    The only suggestion I can make is that French cyclist has a sample of some new alloy. and ex-iraqi scientist can verify it on behalf of whoever. this idea doesn’t really hang together – wouldn’t he use a lab at home?

    I can believe that grandmother’s face was shot off, and that the police looked for wedding photos etc in the UK in order to verify the passport.

    Was wife wearing a head-scarf which initially covered the wounds?

    Are the bodies still in the car in the helicopter picture in say Photo 3 {http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19540445}

    The caravan looks tree-berth. Mummy and daddy, two small kids and grandmother. Why the ftw/three person tent pithed alongside (see photo 1 above)/

    My big “why oh why?” is the seven-year-old (non-dead, fractured skull, shot through shoulder – lots of damage with a 7.65 unless careful to give flesh wound} Smacking her over the head in order to give her amnesia seems hopeful on their part.

  12. Oh is that so?

    Surrey Police confirm that items found at the home of Mr Al Hilli were not hazardous.
    Sky News

    Yet the mud sticks. Earlier the BBC even had an ex Royal Logictics Corps officer on to explain the intricacies of ‘Improvised Exploive Devices’.

  13. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 2:08 pm

    Copied from old thread and posted to Icke yesterday. 1 shooter would give some substance to this.

    If the French cyclist was cycling towards the car when the gunman from the cover of the trees by the road, steps out after he passes and shoots 5 bullets into his back. The cyclist comes to rest where the tarp right by the BMW is seen later. Assassin comes to the fallen cyclist and 2 more shots to the head.

    But if the assassin has been waiting for the French cyclist he is aware of the family in the BMW. But perhaps the ex-Raf guy is one of the little girl’s ‘good men’ and he is there for their protection while their father is meeting the ‘bad man’-the French cyclist who has been sending metals to Iran for nuclear…. The ‘good man’ becomes a ‘bad man’ when he doesnt just observe but shoots the French cyclist and continues by shooting the only material witnesses. This would only work if he already pre-planned becoming the British cyclist and taking the bike from the roof, but he told the family to put the bike there as it would explain why they went down that road in the first place.

    Perhaps the 4yo was never in the car seat, the 7yo was and the 4 yo was already sitting on the floor by her mothers feet. Who was in the front passenger seat? The ex-RAF guy who protects the family and told them he has to meet the ‘bad man’. While there waiting for the French cyclist the 7yo wants to go to the toilet and gets out of the car.
    The ex-Raf man makes sure the 7 yo girl cant tell the police anything when they arrive.

    This would explain why the 4yo doesnt know the good men from the bad.

    I want to ask the 2 bricklayers was there a bike on the roof of the BMW, & were there 2 men sitting in the front.
    The green 4×4 turns suspicion to that.
    The lady in the village saw no more than a bad driver on a bad bend but was a convenient diversion, for more leads.

    Why so many shots? The 3 adults killed from the front passenger seat and then shot thru the windows afterwards to cover up.

  14. Join the dots: Cezus is a subsidiary of Areva, and so is Eurodif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurodif) in which Iran remains a shareholder: http://pages.citebite.com/l4i9f7q3cjej

  15. I thought the original “family feud” theory smacked of racism. Whoever floated that theory presumed – somewhat correctly – that a sort of it’s-how-those-Iraqis-resolve-their-differences theme could percolate the media. It perhaps worked for a while.
    .
    As seems to be increasingly the case with these types of stories, it’s on the internet that you find people asking the more pertinent questions. And idiotic speculation is as likely on the internet as on the mainstream outlets. This is a truly wierd case, and anyone mindlessly regurgitating official lines is simply not worth listening to.

  16. DonnyDarko on the old thread posted the coords of the murder location as 45.731048,6.225787 – Google Maps link http://goo.gl/maps/5v3jV

    Anyone disagree with that? Looks about right to me.

  17. Originally Posted by molliemallone
    What a surprise… the bomb squad have left the Al-Hilli home and the cordon lifted!

    Is it just me, or does the ‘workshop’ look like nothing more than a shed? If SAH was worried enough to have electronic locks and some sort of booby trap protecting it (alluded to on BBC news) surely it would have been a bit more sturdy than a wooden shed!

    Re your timeline Anders (thank you for posting it), I have a question…
    If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48, that is only 5 mins, during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired? Has it been reported how far away from the scene of the killings RAF man was when he was overtaken by the cyclist and witnessed the vehicles?

    I would have thought that if he was only overtaken 5 minutes before finding them all, he would only have been a short distance behind Mollier, and therefore would have been able to hear the shots (they were heard by someone else, so no silencer used). Looking at what has been reported, it seems the track was uphill, and looking at various cycling forums, it would seem that a very good uphill speed is about 16kmh (10mph) vs average at 8kmh (5mph).

    If Mollier had been travelling at 16kmh, he would have covered the following distances over the 5 minutes…
    after 1 minutes 267meters (just over 0.16 of a mile)
    after 2 minutes 534meters
    after 3 minutes 800meters
    after 4 minutes 1068meters
    after 5 minutes 1335 meters (just over 0.8 miles)

    If RAF man was travelling at 8km/hr, he would have covered the following distances over 5 minutes…
    after 1 minutes 133.5meters (just over 0.08 of a mile)
    after 2 minutes 267meters
    after 3 minutes 400meters
    after 4 minutes 534meters
    after 5 minutes 667.5meters (just over 0.4 miles)

    If RAF man was only 667.5 meters away from the killing site when he was overtaken, Mollier would have arrived at the site after 2.28 minutes. After 2.28minutes, RAF man would have travelled 320meters, placing him only 330 meters (1/5 of a mile!) behind him, surely he would have heard the shots over that distance?!

    If there was only one gun (as we are now being told) Mollier must have been shot first as he too would have heard the shots being fired over the 30 seconds if he was still cycling up the hill, and surely would have turned around ASAP!

    Sorry it’s so long winded!!

    Absolutely BRILLIANT stuff MM!!!

    during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired?

    I’ve always said, RAFman is lying, I’m a keen mountain biker too, and when someone overtakes me I get annoyed and try and keep up, RAFman would probably be the same being a Type-A Pilot doncha know, so anyways my gut instinct was he wouldnt be far behind.

    Now your brilliant work has placed him at 333 metres (I like 333, the bastards like it too!)

    Great stuff!

  18. The nuclear angle may be misguiding us.

    Fundamentally Al-Hilli was a micro-satellite engineer, working at times for Surrey Satellite Technology. He was also company secretary of AMS 1087 Ltd, claimed to be an aerial photography company. So he knew a lot about small satellite and hi-res observation cameras.

    Iran has an extremely youthful satellite industry, most recently launching the 50-kg Safir-2B into a low orbit. It is obvious Iran would want an small optical spy satellite ASAP. Al-Hilli has exactly those skills, and he has visited Iran. Whether he has any links with Iranian space developers, or not, that seems like it would make him a possible target for some.

  19. Originally Posted by molliemallone
    Thanks Anders, thinking about it… RAF man would have been even closer when the shots were fired as it took 30 seconds to fire all the shots, placing him well under 300m away by the time they’d finished firing!

    Me thinks he’s LYING!

    We’ll have to rename RAFman to =>>> PINOCCHIOman!

  20. MollieMalone’s calculations are based on the assumption that the RAF guy was overtaken by Mollier 5 minutes before he arrived at the scene. (If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48). Where is the corroboration of this? If official statements were made verifying these timings, then MollieMalone’s calculations would be broadly correct, and very telling.

  21. @ Larry Levin Interesting comment about David Cameron and the South Africa nukes.

    There’s more here:

    https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?8933-David-Cameron-amp-the-History-leading-up-to-him

    Fast forwards from there via Gerald Bull, the Iraqi supergun affair, Matrix Churchill etc. etc.

    Those were murky times indeed.

  22. Okay, I think I have the link.

    Chevaline was a project codename to improve the penetrability of the warheads used by the British Polaris nuclear weapons system. This was the first submarine-based British nuclear weapons system.

    In June of this year Iran announced it was planning to develop a nuclear-powered submarine.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/12/us-iran-nuclear-submarine-idUSBRE85B17Q20120612

    Uranium-zirconium alloy fuels were used in the early US nuclear submarine programs, and zirconium alloys were used to clad the reactors powering them.

    Al-Hilli has been credited as designing the galley kitchen of the new Airbus.

    Could both be targets for designing a weaponised nuclear submarine? Mollier the reactor, Al-Hilli the actual interiors?

  23. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 2:52 pm

    “DonnyDarko on the old thread posted the coords of the murder location as 45.731048,6.225787 – Google Maps link http://goo.gl/maps/5v3jV

    Anyone disagree with that? Looks about right to me.”

    I thought that was on a mountain bike trail but you may be right in which case only 1km from 3km sign and police road-block

    https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=45.731048,6.225787&hl=en&sll=57.746995,-4.687341&sspn=9.759158,19.753418&t=h&z=17

  24. Wonder if there was a GPS destination programmed into the car’s sat-nav?

    Google Navigation says the road is suitable for vehicles and they weren’t at a dead end. Another track that carries on up the mountain side from that point is listed as not suitable for vehicles and I cannot plot a driving route up it. However the route might be suitable for bikes (off-road push bikes, motorcycles possibly?) A main road will be reached after travelling 1/2 mile (as the bird flies – longer on the track as it zig-zags).

  25. chevaline is not only the place in France it is also the name of a British nuclear warhead project!

  26. Yeap – the bikes seem the biggest question now. Was there one on the victims car (would explain the apparent damage to the roof rack). And are we sure the ex-Raf man came on a bike – I hope the french police check to make sure which bike really belongs to which person. There may only have been two bikes to begin with or maybe there was three so where is the missing one. An exchange of bikes would be one way to exchange technology – especially effective if they were very similar bikes.

  27. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 3:00 pm

    On my Google map I failed to correctly mark the 3 km sign, your location appears to be 1.2km away

  28. @nuid

    French say they know how many guns and what type they were and what cartridges

    all they are confirming so far is 43 bullets and 7.65mm

    7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.

    Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.

    Now – if two guns were used, both Beretta 70/71s, it still means each was reloaded 3 times or so…

    Camp site witnesses say they heard 30 seconds of automatic fire

    So that rules out 2 x Berettas

    I suggest one Beretta was used, at least, for accuracy, and another gun, at least, on automatic

  29. @Bajer

    MollieMalone’s calculations are based on the assumption that the RAF guy was overtaken by Mollier 5 minutes before he arrived at the scene. (If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48). Where is the corroboration of this? If official statements were made verifying these timings, then MollieMalone’s calculations would be broadly correct, and very telling.

    =====

    I concur, and I’d also like to know please if anyone has a source for the alleged 10 mins RAFman was alone with the beemer, and whomever else, before he called the cops/ambulances

    I

  30. Aren’t (some of) you forgetting something?…
    The Iranians have decreed nuclear weapons as forbidden. If Al-Hilli was involved in proliferation, it could well be for an alternative foreign power, and not Iran. [A Central Asian states perhaps?]
    .
    I would imagine Iran’s RnD sector is sufficiently advanced that it would not need to gain the kind of information a french Nuclear engineer could furnish – which would very likely (in my eyes anyway) be related to civilian, and NOT MILITARY nuclear technology.
    .
    All this could be a set up to make it LOOK as if Iran has a secret plan. The fact that chatter is suggesting just that, is quite telling I feel.
    .
    And does nobody find it peculiar that with the ratcheting up of anti-Iranian rhetoric to near ‘twelfth hour’ proportions of late, then suddenly this happens?
    .
    Whoever did the multiple, probably professional assassinations, indicates an ACTIVE and rogue agency is at work which is able to operate undetected by the standard intelligence and law enforcement agencies. That is very disturbing, and shows they themselves must be hunted down. But of course this would not happen if it’s authority is sufficiently high, like an agency of a state for example.
    .
    This ‘group’ has the ability to track and hunt down opponents as well as possibly being able to undertake successful surveillance on people who surely must have taken high levels of security and anti-surveillance measures IF they were up to something serious.
    .
    It doesn’t take much thought to narrow the list of perpetrators.

  31. @anon

    Wonder if there was a GPS destination programmed into the car’s sat-nav?

    Google Navigation says the road is suitable for vehicles and they weren’t at a dead end. Another track that carries on up the mountain side from that point is listed as not suitable for vehicles and I cannot plot a driving route up it. However the route might be suitable for bikes (off-road push bikes, motorcycles possibly?) A main road will be reached after travelling 1/2 mile (as the bird flies – longer on the track as it zig-zags).

    =====

    Wonder if a 4×4 could escape that way…?

  32. Vermillion,

    An exchange of bikes would be one way to exchange technology – especially effective if they were very similar bikes.

    “Our ZircAloy(TM) bikes with enhanced MOX core ensure you will never run out of energy even on the steepest climbs.” 😉

  33. straw44berry could you post the cords you think it is then. The coords posted by DonnyDarko match those posted by a newspaper as the google maps coordinates but that could be wrong.

  34. There is a multi-lingual sign which can be seen here on Google Streetview:

    https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=45.731048,6.225787&hl=en&ll=45.757424,6.223021&spn=0.001024,0.002642&sll=57.746995,-4.687341&sspn=9.759158,19.753418&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=45.757424,6.223021&panoid=SQBqpksbidCjqyn8w4Sq-g&cbp=12,200.47,,0,4.93

    I noticed this on the initial TV coverage as it basically says that the road is only suitable for motor vehicles for another 5km. As far as the car was concerned, they were driving a cul-de-sac. However, there appear to by myriad tracks in that part of the valley which would easily be accessible by mountain bike or on foot.

    The average gradient from that point up to where the car was found is about 1-in-16, but some parts appear to be considerably steeper at around 1-in-5, which is STEEP for a cyclist. The height gain is around 300m. One would have to have a very reasonable degree of fitness to cover 5km (3 miles) of off-road track of that sort of gradient at 16km/h, i.e. in less than 20 minutes.

  35. @Vermillion

    Yeap – the bikes seem the biggest question now. Was there one on the victims car (would explain the apparent damage to the roof rack). And are we sure the ex-Raf man came on a bike – I hope the french police check to make sure which bike really belongs to which person. There may only have been two bikes to begin with or maybe there was three so where is the missing one. An exchange of bikes would be one way to exchange technology – especially effective if they were very similar bikes.

    ====

    I thought of that yesterday, if RAFman found, say, a memory stick, he could have taken off the seatpost and dropped it in the downtube, pop the seat back on, would the French check before SDECE arrived? I doubt it. SAH apparently did have an MTB strapped to the roof of the beemer, per the camp site folks. If RAFman is lying, and was always at the RV in the trees, after the 1. cock-up, or 2, hit, he for whatever reason decided to stick around, did he rip the bike off the roof (as the roof supports look damaged) and then make up a story about having an innocent bike ride. But then, what did he do with the damaged roof supports, if there were any, hard to tell from photos. He could have give them + other evidence he wanted to collect either to the 4×4 or the motorbike.

    IF they existed at all, I understand we only have RAFman that saw them at all?

  36. “I noticed this on the initial TV coverage as it basically says that the road is only suitable for motor vehicles for another 5km. As far as the car was concerned, they were driving a cul-de-sac. However, there appear to by myriad tracks in that part of the valley which would easily be accessible by mountain bike or on foot.”

    Yes, I saw that too. Which is why I have always referred to it as a dead-end, other than for walkers or cyclists (or, one assumes, motorbikes.)

  37. “Yes, I saw that too. Which is why I have always referred to it as a dead-end, other than for walkers or cyclists (or, one assumes, motorbikes.)”

    It’s also why I asked, which direction was the 4×4 and the white car supposed to be going in when seen? And if they were coming down, who saw them going up? And what direction was this green 4×4 supposedly going in when the RAF guy saw it?

  38. My last point.

    If Iran was involved in this massacre involving young children, there would be a considerable political incentive to promote this, both in the West and in the Israeli press, as this would add to the general case that Iran is a terrorist state not to be reasoned with, and war is a potential necessity.

    If Israel was involved, it could be a massive potential embarrasment, as a supposed ally kills UK and French nationals with impunity, and without their intelligences knowing very much at all. It would stoke anti-Israeli feeling and damage any potential case for war with Iran. There would be a considerable political incentive to bury this and shift the blame onto other more mundane and domestic suspects.

    Which one does reality tally with?

  39. Is that hasbarah, barkbat?

  40. The second, obviously.

  41. I don’t think ak-Hilli was involved in some kind of bogus activity to help Iran acquire nuclear weapons or to meet smn related to such alleged activity. I also don’t think he would take female members of his family to “a trip” which he knew would be dangerous (if he was in bogus activity to help Iran), considering he had knowlwedge of satellites, he probably would know he would be under surveilllance for such activity.
    So, i believe, the main target was a Frenchman, al-Hilli turned out in a wrong place at a wrong time. RAF man should be questioned. He is the one who knows more here. Military style execution in such a short period of time and the killer dissappears. Smells rat. Smells Israhel.

  42. @Lwtc247

    Aren’t (some of) you forgetting something?…
    The Iranians have decreed nuclear weapons as forbidden. If Al-Hilli was involved in proliferation, it could well be for an alternative foreign power, and not Iran. [A Central Asian states perhaps?]
    .
    I would imagine Iran’s RnD sector is sufficiently advanced that it would not need to gain the kind of information a french Nuclear engineer could furnish – which would very likely (in my eyes anyway) be related to civilian, and NOT MILITARY nuclear technology.
    .

    =====
    As I think Barkbat has stated, what if it were a nuclear sub design? Or this new satellite SAH was working on that can see through clouds? Etc etc. The pair had a very wide skill set, and access to all manner of mainframe computers, with access passwords etc.
    =====

    All this could be a set up to make it LOOK as if Iran has a secret plan. The fact that chatter is suggesting just that, is quite telling I feel.
    .
    =====
    Yes THAT and the fact that our 4th estate is NOT mentioning the dreaded M word, sayanim, and kidon teams.
    =====

    And does nobody find it peculiar that with the ratcheting up of anti-Iranian rhetoric to near ‘twelfth hour’ proportions of late, then suddenly this happens?
    .
    =====
    Well it’s on the cards Iran will be attacked sooner or later, that has been the PNAC plan all along, and they haven’t veered off course yet.
    =====

    Whoever did the multiple, probably professional assassinations, indicates an ACTIVE and rogue agency is at work

    =====
    You’re yalking about Jason Bourne’s TREADSTONE now, lol. But you could very well be right, because unless the 20-man spook panic scramble was just a fake, a tell, then the brits were caught by surprise…
    =====

    which is able to operate undetected by the standard intelligence and law enforcement agencies. That is very disturbing, and shows they themselves must be hunted down. But of course this would not happen if it’s authority is sufficiently high, like an agency of a state for example.
    .
    This ‘group’ has the ability to track and hunt down opponents as well as possibly being able to undertake successful surveillance on people who surely must have taken high levels of security and anti-surveillance measures IF they were up to something serious.
    .
    It doesn’t take much thought to narrow the list of perpetrators.

    =====
    Yes a small’ish list.

  43. Matt,

    That sign is 3.6km away from the coords posted by DonnyDarko (by road not straight line). Google Nav still insists that was not a dead end.

  44. speaking of terrorists Craig,

    I wonder how many undesirables have been subject to incarceration in our mental institutes, feed a plethora of drugs or chemically lobotomized?

    better still I wonder how many visits to such premises have been by our secret services?

    As a country we should hold our collective heads in shame or am i being too cynical?

  45. Just noticed how far up the road into the forest the car was if Mr Al-Hilli was being dropped of for a cycle or even a meet and swap then he could have been dropped nearer the village and cycled the rest of the way (keeping the rest of the family out of it). Maybe the family were to be extracted (to where I don’t know). As I’ve mentioned before there are helicopter flights around that area (for viewing Mont Blanc I have heard) and there are flat areas above that road that could land a helicopter.

  46. “That sign is 3.6km away from the coords posted by DonnyDarko (by road not straight line). Google Nav still insists that was not a dead end”

    You’re right, I measured the 5km from Armand. The first 1.4km is a height gain of around 70m. My point about fitness levels / speeds / gradients still stands though.

  47. Anon

    “Matt,

    That sign is 3.6km away from the coords posted by DonnyDarko (by road not straight line). Google Nav still insists that was not a dead end.”

    ===

    One early report mentioned that a barrier was open – it did not make sense to me at the time but maybe the road is closed sometimes(in winter or when forestry work is being done). Given the barrier was open it seems all this talk of dead ends is misleading. Maybe the barrier was closed and one of the involved parties opened it…. which would make a good ambush point. Perhaps the 7 year old daughter left the car to open it.

  48. Any blood spatter experts here?

    This just posted at Icke, I must say I never thought about blood spatter, surely the remaining windows should have been drenched, the front windscreen etc…

    Originally Posted by tien an
    25 shots fired….two head-shots each adult…and not one blood-stain visible on upholstery or
    what remains of window glass.

    What are the chances of that?

    tian an.

    Anders – latest is 43 shots…

  49. Can someone post another link to the photograph (taken from above) of the car please?

  50. murdermostfowl

    10 Sep, 2012 - 3:48 pm

    Apparently the telegraph claims it as theirs?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9533266/France-shooting-al-Hilli-family-neighbours-allowed-home-after-bomb-scare.html

    (Repeat question) Does anyone know when this was taken – before or after the bodies were removed?

    I can’t find a version that allows considerable enlargement.

  51. Thanks v much

  52. Does this look like a track you’d casually drive a BMW up on a family holiday?

    http://www.panoramio.com/photo/675653

    Here’s the sign I was referring to:

    http://www.euronews.com/images_news/img_606X341_0709-annecy-murder.jpg

    Aerial shot of BMW:

    https://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01580/French_Shooting_1580531a.jpg

    Doesn’t that look like tarmac at the bottom?

  53. Anyone see blood spatter here? I see what looks like a small patch on the left hand seat, middle left smashed window…

    http://www.oddonion.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/0aec1__62750010_62744761.jpg

  54. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:03 pm

    So given the BMW is hard up against the embankment, was the tailgate already open when it was reversed?

    Looks like it would be impossible to open it where it rests as it would meet the undergrowth as it opened?

    Also looks like the rear passenger window is down suggesting daughter no 1 who got shot was pushed through that and instructed to run?

  55. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:05 pm

    Coordinates of the sign where the Police Road block is

    45.75746,6.223035

  56. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:07 pm

    Just south of there with the junction of Route du Moulin

  57. Murdermostyfowl,

    Highest res version of photo I can find https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/08/article-2200388-14DEF9C4000005DC-848_638x624.jpg

    =============

    Look very closely.

    The front driver’s RHD half of the windscreen looks to be rather clearly shot out, or caved in, be my guest, with shattered glass all over the instrument pod. I don’t see any blood but the res is not that good.

    Glass on the inside, lots of it on the dash, not on the bonnet.

    Plus, what appear to be two round white marks on the screen, as if a body hit it, or a sledgehammer was taken to it.

    Anyone agree about the front windscreen? If so, how did this happen?

    RAFman didn’t cave in the front window (still intact), when the driver’s side already has two holes in it per the official story of how SAH was shot.

    Ditto the front pax side, 2 holes as in at least 2 bullet holes. RAFman didn’t go in that way.

    That is getting crazy.

  58. A point made by TomRudko above rings true to me. What man would take his family, his children, to a clandestine meeting that involved anything as dangerous as many suggest here? This strongly suggests to me that Al-Hilli had no understanding he was doing anything untoward.

  59. (1) Speculation about a treff in the woods makes some sense given the al-Hillis seem to have waited an hour in an otherwise uninteresting spot, but what man takes his children to a potentially dangerous meeting?
    (2) Probably al Hilli was the target, not the cyclist: he and his passengers were executed with great professionalism at close range (almost complete surprise), whereas the cyclist was clearly shot at greater range, implying he was not the primary target, merely a witness.
    (3) It’s much harder to be accurate with handguns than people think, even at close range. To perform a series of triple taps into three people in a vehicle with not a single misplaced shot bespeaks a lot of training and experience.
    (4) I would have guessed two killers given that only one person escaped from the car, but I don’t know what has been confirmed. The 7.65mm ammo is suggestive – used in small concealable handguns, but 25 rounds fired means at least three, more likely four mag changes for a single weapon. That is, unless a small SMG were used, like a Skorpion. 7.65mm is much easier to moderate (silencer) than 9mm, because most 9mm is supersonic. 9mm would be preferred for stopping power, but you’d choose 7.65mm for a quiet “surprise” close range hit.
    (5) “Almost complete surprise”: position of vehicle suggests driver saw it coming and tried to reverse away from man/men producing guns. He was disabled before he get into Drive. This is consistent with vehicle bumping backwards into bank, and depth of rear tyres implies car (if automatic) was spinning its wheels in Reverse, possibly right up to ex-RAF witness killing engine. (May explain why he felt turning engine off such a priority.)
    (6) Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children, as should (we hope) any Western wet affairs types: this level of brutality is more like that of Colombian or Albanian blackhats, and since their involvement seems unlikely, certain Arab agencies spring to mind.
    (7) Very hard to fit family row/inheritance feud into this scenario. The stench of politics and intel/paramilitary involvement is unmistakable.
    (8) IMHO, we will learn more about al Hilli’s history and activities that will begin to shed light on this.

  60. “Does this look like a track you’d casually drive a BMW up on a family holiday?”

    I think on balance that may be a photo of a different track, given that there’s tarmac on both of the other two photos I linked to. Looks like the road / track of tarmacked at least as far as where the car was found. Still have to be pretty fit to cycle up it in 15-20 minutes though.

  61. This guy interviewed on BBC 5 live, is some sort of ex-detective, turned crime writer/investigator. Was over in Chevaline for 24 hours. He has apparently no interest in the occupations of al Hilli or the French cyclist. But he says that it “couldn’t be” a professional ‘hit’ because the killers went back down the hill. He says you can take the turn in the road and carry on by car for 20 miles (but he doesn’t say where it ends up).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtLgnAaM9Ws&feature=youtu.be

  62. Straw44berry

    I make that sign 3k away as the crow flies from the coords posted by Darko. These cords seem to match those given in other sources showing overhead google maps.

    Gogle Sat Nav is happy to plot a car route from the sign to the spot – 3.6km driving. Google Sat Nav is also happy to plot an onward route from there (but not up the smaller track that starts up the mountain from the small “car-park”).

  63. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:19 pm

    Aren’t the marks on the screen just from someone shooting from the drivers side inwards, ditto the smaller hole in the passenger side front door glass?

    Suggesting that who ever had been in the front seat had left before things kicked off, either older girl – or pretend RAF man?

  64. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:22 pm

    “couldn’t be” a professional ‘hit’

    Turned out to be a *very* professional hit as almost everyone died and the killers have vanished into thin air, and the authorities seem unwilling to investigate it properly.

  65. Milton

    agree with some of that but the fact is neither of the children were killed (presumably after seeing the 7 year old they would have guessed the 4 year old was about)so perhaps the assassins were only expecting Al-Hilli and balked at slaughtering the children but “had to” knock the 7 year old out because she was screaming or something after shooting her to stop her running off. So maybe still a “western” (what are you implying here about arabs?) intelligence agency with some qualms about killing children.

  66. Keith Crosby

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:24 pm

    May I suggest a healthy degree of scepticism to rumours that non-existent Iranian nuclear ambitions are part of this? We wouldn’t want to give the zionist entity a pretext for even more terrorism now would we?

  67. The photos on oddonion.com are credited NI Syndication.

    Now, we all know who NI are, don’t we? Or that yet another red herring??

  68. @phil

    Anders7777 said this yesterday:

    Why would Saad al Hilli take his wife, kids and mother-in-law along to a clandestine rendezvous to exchange intelligence or materials? That makes no sense.

    =====
    Yes it does because who would think he was up to something, he took the family for a day out in the Alps. He sees Sylvain, he sez I’m getting out to stretch my legs, they have a meet on a mountain bike trail away from the car. I doubt for one minute he thought he would be ambushed or he wouldn’t have gone there. Apparently the family went there every year, a caravan, a property in France et cetera. If it was a proper rendezvous I would wager he planned on a quick walk whilst the women looked after the children.

    Of course this is all supposition. But nobody can deny the facts ref Sylvain’s employers and SAH’s.
    =====

    Suhayl said this yesterday:

    Re. the question of why he took his family to the remote possible rendezvous, one ought to point out that families – including children – are used often for cover in espionage activity. Read Corinne Souza’s excellent work on the subject – her father was an Iraqi SIS agent for many years, so she writes from experience.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baghdads-Spy-Personal-Espionage-Intrigue/dp/1840187034/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347178840&sr=1-1

  69. Someone in France (unknown to me) is tweeting me (and others) with the word zirconium. Also talking about ‘To see if they have recovered from zirconium from Ugine in France Alps’. Ugine is the site of CEZUS.
    http://www.areva.com/EN/operations-977/cezus-ugine-melting-and-forging.html

    May not be relevant. Do you have to recover from contact with zirconium?

  70. @Milton:

    “Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children, as should (we hope) any Western wet affairs types….certain Arab agencies spring to mind.”

    Two questions immediately spring to mind from your sentence:

    Why would a state which willfully kills children with war and sanctions hesitate to do the same with special forces?

    Why do you think an Arab agency would be more ready to kill children than others?

  71. “Turned out to be a *very* professional hit as almost everyone died and the killers have vanished into thin air, and the authorities seem unwilling to investigate it properly.”

    Yes, my thinking exactly.

  72. @Anders7777 et al
    There is a very full timeline in French at
    http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
    Oddity: the absence in the timeline of unnamed the wife of Sylvain Mollier raising the alarm there. In fact this fact comes only from the Prosecutor who spread the rumour that the cyclist was the wrong person in the wrong place (Huff Post link 6 sept)
    Sylvain Mollier semble avoir été au mauvais endroit, au mauvais moment. Il est la seule victime non britannique de la tuerie de Chevaline.
    Ce père de famille, originaire d’Ugine, près d’Albertville en Savoie, était parti faire un tour de vélo, mercredi, du côté du lac d’Annecy tout proche. Il ne s’est pas rendu dans cette zone peu fréquentée, boisée et sans issue par hasard.

    Il avait pris la direction de Chevaline avec la ferme intention d’en découdre avec « une bonne petite montée ».
    En ne le voyant pas revenir, sa compagne a donné l’alerte.
    Sylvain Mollier venait d’avoir un fils, en juin dernier. Employé chez Cezus il était en congé parental. Ce quadragénaire était père de trois enfants.

    No mention of the wife there. This is what the Huff Post writes:
    His wife, worried when he did not return from his cycle ride, alerted the authorities, without making a link to the killings.

    She went to a local police station with a photograph of her husband. Officers quickly made the link and her husband was identified as the fourth victim.

    He found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time, Annecy prosecutor Eric Maillaud said.. Is this from the prosecutor?

    No interviews forthcoming from the wife – she is not a witness to anything one imagines. No doubt gagged.

    Notice also the deputy Mayor of Ugine, Michel Chevallier, who knew Sylvain Mollier and relayed the news to his wife, allegedly, on Wed 6 September lays out the official narrative:
    “Dans ma tête, je vois Sylvain arriver en vélo et une personne lui tirer dessus parce qu’il a été témoin d’un massacre”, raconte l’adjoint, ajoutant : “il serait passé peut-être cinq minutes avant, il serait tranquille, cinq minutes après, il aurait été le premier témoin de ce massacre, mais aujourd’hui il serait avec nous pour parler de ce massacre”.

  73. from reports it appears that al hilli (or someone) tried to reverse the car out of the lay-by (tyres sank deep into the mud) would make sense if the road ahead was blocked(4×4)and there was no escape from behind.
    .
    so many “qualified” people in such a small area .. is this place popular with this type of tourist .. or is it just another “conspiricists” coincidence?

  74. @Dave

    Aren’t the marks on the screen just from someone shooting from the drivers side inwards,

    =====
    They don’t look like bullet holes to me though, they kinda look like someone tried to break the widow with something
    =====

    ditto the smaller hole in the passenger side front door glass?

    =====
    Well there are 2 holes so I would think 2 or more bullets on pax side…
    =====

    Suggesting that who ever had been in the front seat had left before things kicked off, either older girl – or pretend RAF man?

    =====
    Like the pretend RAFman bit, as in, they were waiting for Sylvain to arrive, then RAFman does the hit, with help from others.

    If Zainab was in the front pax seat (I still don’t know for sure about the child seat arrangements, or who was in the back, wife or Zainab?), she had stepped out of the car for some reason. The official story says she was not in the car when the shooting started, so, a stray bullet?

    I still think the front driver’s half of the windscreen looks caved in or shot in?

    Any more opinions?

  75. @Dave

    “couldn’t be” a professional ‘hit’

    Turned out to be a *very* professional hit as almost everyone died and the killers have vanished into thin air, and the authorities seem unwilling to investigate it properly.
    =====

    Yes you can always count on the BBC to give airtime to the sayanim types…

  76. So…4X4’s…surely SatNaV fitted a standard on exactly these types of vehicle.

    Should be easy enough,then,for the authorities to comb the SatNav datbanks with these co-ordinates for a specific time-window..

  77. Sorry if it’s been posted already .. I can’t keep up and “work” at the same time ..
    FWIW –
    http://islamic-intelligence.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/lac-dannecy-affaire-al-hilli-la.html

    Bing Translate: –

    “Lake Annecy: Case Al Hilli, the gendarmerie and the Attorney of the Republic Maillaud covered the commando of killers from the Lyon suburbs, this is a military operation which has taken a ‘Arab’ working and knowing a tiny part of the design of the aero-space shield of NATO-Israel.

    Contrary to what reported in the anglo-French corrupt media, Saad Al Hilli was in fact under British protection because he was working on the design of new systems GPS of firing missiles and the harmonization of guidance systems and inter-operabilites European aero-space shields of NATO. The Iranians, the South Koreans, Chinese, Russians possess already plans for the militarization of airspace, and Western aero-space architecture are in fact Israelis who have provided the technology plans and some of the European plans East, against Chinese billions. Israel as it does not provide any details of his ‘iron dome’.

  78. >> The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. <<

    One key feature of this program is that scientists are killed on the basis of what they *know* rather than what they *do*. Their current work is not as important as the level of knowledge that they have attained. If the Israelis believe a scientist has the knowledge to help the nuclear weapons programme — even if they are not engaged in any manner with such a programme — the scientist is killed.

    This comes straight from the mouth of an IDF general. He was quite open and matter-of-fact about it.

  79. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:39 pm

    from reports it appears that al hilli (or someone) tried to reverse the car out of the lay-by (tyres sank deep into the mud) would make sense if the road ahead was blocked(4×4)and there was no escape from behind.

    He may have been going for drive, but only got as far as reverse before being shot – remember park reverse neutral drive, it’s gone into the bank hard enough to dig in a bit, but not hard enough to crash?

  80. of course not to forget al hilli also worked for the uk intel agencies against saddam in blairs war ..

  81. This is not a wind up.

    Perhaps the NYPD officers currently in London can help out. They seem to be ubiquitous. In Israel, France, Germany, and other places.

    NYPD Opens Up New Bureau–in Israel
    Mayor Bloomberg’s “personal army” heads to the Middle East. What could go wrong?
    http://www.alternet.org/hot-news-views/nypd-opens-new-bureau-israel

  82. “Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children”

    What Phil said, 10 Sep, 2012 – 4:30 pm

  83. @Jives – no, probably not. Location searches are usually stored in Satnav memory, but otherwise Satnavs don’t usually keep a record of ongoing position. This requires more storage and software than these very simple computers have, and is done deliberately to reduce the cost.

    Also – I’m sure you already know – Satnavs only receive a signal, so there is no record of their position on the satellite side.

  84. @Anders777

    Yes, my point was possibly naive. I suppose I simply cannot empathise with people who play these games. Such cruelty is hard to imagine.

  85. I’m not the only one to think it odd that the initial police didn’t check the bodies for sign of life;

    “Forensic experts said the first job for police who arrived at the crime scene should have been to check for survivors.

    But it could be that the first officers called to the rural beauty spot in the French countryside simply ‘panicked’ when confronted with the horror.

    In the UK, a doctor would be called to certify death – doing so, in this instance, could have alerted officers that the child was alive amidst the carnage in the car.

    Jim Fraser, professor of forensic science at the University of Strathclyde, said the first responsibility for officers confronted with such a crime scene is to check the victims for signs of life.

    It has been known for victims even with gunshot wounds to the head to live for hours and survive if they get emergency treatment.

    He said: ‘The overriding responsibility to the first responder at a crime scene, in the UK, would be to ensure that all individuals present are accounted for, their health and welfare, with an initial but thorough look at the crime scene.’

    Prof Fraser said of such multiple death crimes: ‘It’s a pretty horrible scene – not for the faint-hearted.’

    Forensic experts say it is a fiction to think murder scenes are preserved in pristine condition until they are examined by crime scene investigators.

    Only after police have carried out their duty to preserve life and certify death do they ‘freeze the scene’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html#ixzz2658gG4Z5

    Hope it’s just bizarre procedure rather than something more sinister.

  86. @Milton

    (1) Speculation about a treff in the woods makes some sense given the al-Hillis seem to have waited an hour in an otherwise uninteresting spot, but what man takes his children to a potentially dangerous meeting?
    =====
    See my post just now on this, it is quite common. It also suggests he was NOT worried about this meet, if it was a meet. He felt safe, did RAFman make him feels safe?
    =====

    (2) Probably al Hilli was the target, not the cyclist: he and his passengers were executed with great professionalism at close range (almost complete surprise), whereas the cyclist was clearly shot at greater range, implying he was not the primary target, merely a witness.
    =====
    I don’t buy that, Sylvain could have been sprayed from a distance. The hit team may have been waiting for him to arrive, then take out all but the kids. Bad timing, Sylvain arrived whilst Zainab having a toilet break? Zainab takes a stray bullet? Pistol whipped, but no more. Someone had a conscience.

    (3) It’s much harder to be accurate with handguns than people think, even at close range. To perform a series of triple taps into three people in a vehicle with not a single misplaced shot bespeaks a lot of training and experience.
    =====
    Very much so

    (4) I would have guessed two killers given that only one person escaped from the car, but I don’t know what has been confirmed. The 7.65mm ammo is suggestive – used in small concealable handguns, but 25 rounds fired means at least three, more likely four mag changes for a single weapon. That is, unless a small SMG were used, like a Skorpion. 7.65mm is much easier to moderate (silencer) than 9mm, because most 9mm is supersonic. 9mm would be preferred for stopping power, but you’d choose 7.65mm for a quiet “surprise” close range hit.
    =====
    Mossad and Skymarhalls use this round and Beretta 70 types for this reason.

    Also, 43 bullets, not 25.

    (5) “Almost complete surprise”: position of vehicle suggests driver saw it coming and tried to reverse away from man/men producing guns. He was disabled before he get into Drive.
    =====
    Not too sure about this, wheels do seem to have dug into the bank, if driver panicked in reverse, then dies, engine may have been left screaming in reverse. RAFman was determined to switch the engine off, for some reason, rather than tend Zainab.

    This is consistent with vehicle bumping backwards into bank,
    =====
    But no dents at front of beemer, so it wasn’t bumped back, blocked I would say yes…

    and depth of rear tyres implies car (if automatic) was spinning its wheels in Reverse, possibly right up to ex-RAF witness killing engine. (May explain why he felt turning engine off such a priority.)
    =====
    Someone gave details of the beemer rear diff, car may have been kinda bouncing as the electronics coped with spinning wheels

    (6) Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children, as should (we hope) any Western wet affairs types: this level of brutality is more like that of Colombian or Albanian blackhats, and since their involvement seems unlikely, certain Arab agencies spring to mind.
    (7) Very hard to fit family row/inheritance feud into this scenario. The stench of politics and intel/paramilitary involvement is unmistakable.
    (8) IMHO, we will learn more about al Hilli’s history and activities that will begin to shed light on this.

    Great stuff!

  87. Two sets of buildings at the top of the slope – reachable by the mountain path from the murder location (but not for cars).

    0.8 km from cords http://goo.gl/maps/A8dbL

    1km from cords http://goo.gl/maps/zSxug

    Anyone know what they are?

  88. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:49 pm

    Like the pretend RAFman bit, as in, they were waiting for Sylvain to arrive, then RAFman does the hit, with help from others.

    They all set off, collect pretend RAF man on the way, so both kids and both women end up in the back, either they drop off RAF man down the road a bit to watch from the undergrowth, or with an hour to wait he nips off for a pee.

    Next up Frenchman arrives on his bike, before much else happens, killer appears – shoots Frenchman, then before BMW has chance to escape, shoots driver, giving wife time to hide smaller girl and push the other one out of the open window, she gets shot from over the car, explaining why killer missed head and just hit her shoulder, kills women, does the old double tap thing to make sure everyone is really dead, and then either out or bullets or getting short of them, uses pistol butt to try to kill girl, before doing a bunk.

    Raf man gets back to find dead bodies all over the place, and needs 10 minutes to speak to HQ and try to come up with an excuse for being there, spots bike on top of car, perfect excuse…

  89. I just want to state that I have been dropped off for hikes or bike rides at close to the area where the assassination occurred and would never expect someone to drop me so deep in the forest .. i still think that the fact of the whole family so far into the forest is relevant. The road is tarmaced but still a bit of a hassle to navigate not an easy drive as it bends and switchbacks. Bikes tracks branch off at earlier point.So either the family wanted to pass through the forest maybe to escape to Switzerland or Italy and make it difficult for followers. Or some kind of extraction.

  90. “So…4X4′s…surely SatNaV fitted a standard on exactly these types of vehicle.

    Should be easy enough,then,for the authorities to comb the SatNav datbanks with these co-ordinates for a specific time-window..”

    No such thing, a Sat Nav is a self-contained device which only receives radio signals from GPS satellites, it does not transmit.

    They might be able to trace who was in the area through mobile phone records, but given the remoteness of the spot and the steepness of the valley that mobile coverage would be non-existent:

    http://opensignalmaps.com/index.php?lat=45.6349&lng=6.2052&initZoom=11&isHeatMap=1

    That said, if the killer(s) had a phone switched on as they headed back towards Chevaline, they should have connected to the local tower at some point having not been connected previously (out of signal range). The phone records could be scoured for such info.

    Map of local mobile phone towers:

    http://opensignalmaps.com/index.php?lat=45.7419&lng=6.2239&initZoom=12&isHeatMap=0

  91. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:53 pm

    “I’m not the only one to think it odd that the initial police didn’t check the bodies for sign of life”

    If they though the car had a boot full of nuclear material, might that explain why they checked for signs of life with a helicopter, and waited 8 hours for a special team to arrive?

    Why check for signs of life with a helicopter when you can just walk up to the car?

  92. @phil

    I hear you. Good coppers have to think like a crim would.

  93. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:55 pm

    “So either the family wanted to pass through the forest maybe to escape to Switzerland or Italy and make it difficult for followers. Or some kind of extraction.”

    If it’s true that they waited for an hour, they could have just have driven to Switzerland in that hour, which is a safer place, the motorway or deep in the woods?

  94. “He may have been going for drive, but only got as far as reverse before being shot – remember park reverse neutral drive, it’s gone into the bank hard enough to dig in a bit, but not hard enough to crash?”

    It was a British car, much more likely to be stick-shift (or ‘manual gearbox’ as we call it) than automatic.

  95. Jon, Sat-navs now can be mobile phone network assisted (faster position locking, remote tracking etc) and can download sat location data over the net rather than slowly from the sats) and many can record your journey onto a flash memory card if asked to do so.

  96. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:02 pm

    It was a British car, much more likely to be stick-shift (or ‘manual gearbox’ as we call it) than automatic.

    OE04WJZ BMW 3.0 – must be an auto.

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