Navalny, Ward, Assange, Snowden and the Attack on Free Speech

by craig on July 25, 2013 4:44 pm in Uncategorized

Russia does not have a functioning criminal justice system at all, in the sense of a trial mechanism aimed at determining innocence or guilt.  Exactly as in Uzbekistan, the conviction rate in criminal trials is over 99%.  If the prosecutors, who are inextricably an arm of the executive government, want to send you to jail, there is absolutely no judicial system to protect you.  The judges are purely there for show.

When critics of Putin like Alexei Navalny are convicted, therefore, we have absolutely no reassurance that the motivation behind the prosecution or the assessment of guilt was genuine.  Which is not to say that Navalny is innocent; I am in no position to judge. People are complex.   I sacrificed my own pretty decent career to the cause of human rights, but in my personal and family life I was by no means the most moral of individuals.  I see no reason for it to be impossible that all of Navalny’s excellent political work did not co-exist with a fatal weakness.  But his criticisms of Putin made him a marked man, who the state was out to get, and the most probable explanation – especially as prosecutors had looked at the allegations before and decided not to proceed – is that he is suffering for his criticisms of the President rather than a genuine offence.

It fascinates me that the Western media view the previous decision by the prosecutors not to proceed as evidence the case is politically motivated against Navalny; but fail to draw the same conclusion from precisely the same circumstance in the Assange case.

David Ward MP has not been sent to jail.  He has however had the Lib Dem whip removed, which under Clegg’s leadership perhaps he ought to consider an honour.  It is rather a commonplace sentiment that it is a terribly sad thing, that their community having suffered dreadfully in the Holocaust, the European Jews involved in founding the state of Israel went on themselves to inflict terrible pain and devastation on the Palestinians in the Nakba.   Both the Holocaust and the Nakba were horrific events of human suffering.  For this not startling observation, David Ward is removed from the Liberal Democrats.  He also stated that, with its ever increasing number of racially specific laws, its walls and racially restricted roads, Israel is becoming an apartheid state.  That is so commonplace even Sky News’ security correspondent Sam Kiley said it a few months ago, without repercussion.  In Russia you cannot say Putin is corrupt; in the UK you cannot say Israeli state policy is malign.  Neither national state can claim to uphold freedom of speech.  Meanwhile, of course, David Cameron announces plans to place filters on the internet access of all UK households.

In the United States, the House of Representatives failed by just 12 votes to make illegal the mass snooping by the NSA which was not widely publicised until Edward Snowden’s revelations.  What Snowden said was so important that almost half the country’s legislators wished to act on his information.  Yet the executive wish to pursue him and remove all his freedom for the rest of his life, as they are doing to Bradley Manning for Manning’s exposure of war crimes and extreme duplicity.

Around this complex of issues and the persons of Manning, Navalny, Snowden and Assange there is a kind of new ideological competition between the governments of Russia, the US and UK as to which is truly promoting the values of human freedom.  The answer is none of them are.  All these states are, largely in reaction to the liberating possibilities of the internet, promoting a concerted attack on freedom of speech and liberty of thought.

States are the enemy.  We are the people.

 

 

 

 

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670 Comments

  1. Press TV’s video article “Google blocks Press TV’s access to its YouTube account”….on YouTube….is still up. (re. mine at 2.13)

  2. Someone 29 Jul, 2013 – 12:26 pm
    “Father of Edward Snowden…denouncing “Orwellian surveillance programs””

    He has moved from calling for his son to come home to campaigning the issues. Good man. Can’t have been easy.

  3. To be honest I am not overly interested in bilderberg attendees. I certainly wasn’t suggesting alexander didn’t attend – I just happened to notice the source in the original link.

    I’m sure the powerful have numerous ways to communicate informally and maybe bilderbrg is an anachronism that will fade as light shines upon it.

  4. Navalny: thoughtful piece here:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7a3c701c-f78b-11e2-87ec-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2aRrSTVFB

    More than meets the eye?

  5. Wired report the US is researching a technology, to be sold as a convenience, that could be described as crowd-sourcing intelligence gathering.

    Wired seem to suggest the hope is that this system, developed by the government, will be widely and voluntarily adopted, led by the business community.

    Phone calls immediately transcribed into text files: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03/darpa-speech/

  6. “I’m sure the powerful have numerous ways to communicate informally and maybe bilderbrg is an anachronism that will fade as light shines upon it.”

    Bilderberg is more like a lightning conductor, in my opinion. There are others of these policy forming groups – the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations, for example – of which we know less, and undoubtedly others of which we know nothing. The fact that the MSM is prepared to publicise the Bilderberg meetings is suspicious and probably means that it is fairly low level as these things go. There are no Rothschilds on the BIlderberg list, for example – they feel it’s sufficient to send their messenger boy Mandelson along.
    Let the masses vent their spleen on Bilderberg while the real business takes place elsewhere.

  7. Flaming June

    29 Jul, 2013 - 6:06 pm

    Ray McGovern on the Edward Snowden case.

    Puttin’ the Pressure on Putin
    By Ray McGovern

    The Obama administration continues to compound the diplomatic mess around former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. The latest blunder was announcing that the U.S. wouldn’t torture or execute Snowden, a reminder to the world how far Official Washington has strayed from civilized behavior, notes ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern.

    July 28, 2013

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35681.htm

  8. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 6:49 pm

    Putin needs the G20 until BRICS is fully operational, June. Plus he’s got his own domestic troubles with dissidence and he doesn’t need another rash of headaches over one person.

    Holder and the other empty suits are busy with other headaches, as well. DOJ has spent 10,000 man hours chasing after the DOTcom guy in NZ, but I think a lot of folks see his assurances that no death penalty and no torture is like the old saying “fool me once…..” and the suit becomes like the Emperors new clothes. Congress is ratcheting up more anti-section 215 legislation and at this point, I think we can declare Snowden’s actions a victory from a public relations standpoint. For the first time since 9/11 a majority of Americans see civil liberties as most important than their so-called ‘security’ from terrorism.

  9. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 6:53 pm

    @ Anon

    “Doug Scorgie at 9:44 pm:

    “Habbabkuk, if you want to start a discussion about political, social or human rights abuses in ANY country please do so. Perhaps there could meaningful intercourse on the subject.”

    There would be little point in that, Doug. What would inevitably happen would be that a Murrayista would find some instance of Western support for that country’s regime in the past, or blame the situation on colonialism, and the finger of blame would be pointed straight back at the West!”
    ________________

    Exactly my thought as well, Anon.

  10. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 7:01 pm

    For those who rely on counterpoint for discussion, it’s deadly to proffer a premise which just might get shot down. Such risk is above their pay grade.

  11. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 7:08 pm

    @ Passerby (and, tangentially, Komodo) – 12h45 :

    “Komodo says:

    Because these are our countries and their allies, and the abuses are conducted in our name. We object.

    An excellent observation. Throughout this thread and others too, the hasbara vermin constantly point out the same feeble, weak, inane propositions; why don’t you talk about this abuse, instead of that?”
    ____________

    Wow, one “pissant” and three “hasbara vermin”, not to mention signs of great emotion in the grammar and structure of your post at 12h45! My comment and Anon’s excellent follow-up comment obviously got under someone’s skin! :)

    Anyway : nobody here is asking you or the other Eminences to talk about “this abuse” rather than “that abuse” – we just wonder why you don’t talk about both.

    The only reason you don’t that occurs to me is that you think human rights are divisible – omportant for the West to maintain, not important for others.

    That’s probably it, isn’t it.

  12. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 7:18 pm

    @ Flaming June (13h20)

    “BREAKING NEWS:Lady Thatcher’s funeral cost taxpayers £1.2 million, according to figures released by the government

    I would have dig a hole here for a fiver and she could have laid alongside the remains of two dear cats and two dear dogs.”
    ________________

    And I seem to recall that you, my dear, at the time, were waxing indignant that the funeral would cost £10 million.

    Some of us tried to tell you, but you wouldn’t listen. It would be a lot less than that, and the Thatcher family would be paying for a lot of it, we told you.

    Time for hat, eating of, methinks. Bon appétit!

    (Likely response from F.J. : “oh, it wasn’t actually me who said that, I was just passing on info from the msm” :) )

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 7:28 pm

    @ Mr Scorgie (14h18) :

    ““The Israeli cabinet has approved a bill requiring any peace deal with the Palestinians to be put to a referendum.”

    Mary, Palestinians living in Israel (“proper”) will get to vote.

    No Palestinians in the West Bank will be able to vote. However all Jewish settlers in the west bank will have the vote.

    That’s Israeli democracy for you.”
    __________________

    Yes, indeed.

    Have you perchance forgotten to mention that President Mahmoud Abbas has said that the Palestinians will also be asked to vote in their own referendum on any peace deal?

    Which seems rather fair to me – both sides to any peace deal will have their say in referenda.

  14. Flaming June

    29 Jul, 2013 - 7:44 pm

    Jackpot again. Three lemons in a row.

  15. Flaming June

    29 Jul, 2013 - 7:53 pm

    There has just been a bad head-on railway accident in Switzerland in which 44 people have been injured.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1121900/swiss-train-crash-44-passengers-injured

    I always believed that Swiss trains were particularly safe but not so according to this article.

    http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Swiss_rail_accidents_raise_safety_questions.html?cid=35219000

    This really is bad news especially coming so soon after the coach accident in Italy and the train derailment in Spain in the last few days.

  16. Israel getting its sticky fingers into India`s communications systems.

    http://thehackernews.com/2013/07/israels-verint-systems-get-contract.html

  17. Earlier today I wrote it needed less than 3,000 signatures to reach the target 100,000 for the Nobel Peace Prize for Bradley Manning. Now it needs less than 200.

    http://act.rootsaction.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=7612&track=MM&tag=MM

  18. doug scorgie

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:04 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    29 Jul, 2013 – 7:33 am

    @ Doug Scorgie (23h53 yesterday):

    “I wonder how much she { ie, Theresa May }got paid for her story.”

    “May I remind Doug of his request posted on the “getting back into the water” thread at 21h06 on 26 July, which read as follows :”

    “When putting points of view forward your opinions must be supported; you should produce your evidence and explain why this evidence supports your point of view; if used, you should always quote sources and give references”.

    “Off you go, laddy.”

    Habbabkuk, how is saying, “I wonder how much she got paid for her story”, putting forward a point of view?

    Your incompetence in logic and argument is breath-taking for all to see.

  19. Flaming June

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:05 pm

    Jonathan Cook on Gibney’s film about Julian Assange.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/29/the-assassination-of-julian-assange/

  20. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:17 pm

    @ Mr Scorgie

    “Habbabkuk, how is saying, “I wonder how much she got paid for her story”, putting forward a point of view?”
    ___________________

    Your point of view, which you express as fact, is that Theresa May “got paid”. Your only question was “how much”.

    Evidence, sources, references to back up your point of view please, Mr Scorgie.

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:21 pm

    @ Flaming June

    £10 million claimed, £1,2 million actual cost.

    How did your hat taste? :)

  22. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!) 29 Jul, 2013 – 8:21 pm
    “How did your hat taste? :)”
    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!) 22 Jul, 2013 – 8:52 pm
    “I think [the dark glasses] give me that rather natty look. If I could add a trilby, I would!”

  23. Flaming June

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:45 pm

    Sorry. I never wear hats unlike the royal hangers-on who spends £thousands and thousands on millinery.

    Plus Plus Plus… we will never know the true cost.

    Margaret Thatcher’s funeral cost taxpayers more than £3m
    Cabinet Office confirms policing and security costs for former prime minister’s funeral in April
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/29/margaret-thatcher-funeral-cost-taxpayers

    Nota Bene Never, ever, believe anything this ‘government tells you.

  24. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:46 pm

    The Manning verdict to be read Tuesday 1 pm EST.

    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/29-1

  25. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:48 pm

    Is that a grey hat, A Node? I’d have thought it were black or white.

  26. You read this here first! (bet your butt you will not read about anywhere else)

    Saudi forces have laid siege, surrounding al Awamia district in Qatif in the eastern provinces, and have been shooting at the residents. The fires started by the fire fight have destroyed many houses, many people are injured and many more dead.

  27. doug scorgie

    29 Jul, 2013 - 8:56 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    29 Jul, 2013 – 8:00 am

    “Free speech operates within the confines of law in all countries.”

    Habbabkuk, some laws are so broadly defined that it gives the police and like-minded magistrates the opportunity to abuse people who they view as being from a different class or have a different political persuasion to that of the state.

    I agree that freedom of speech should have legal constraints but those constraints must be tightly defined and not open to misinterpretation and abuse by the authorities.

    “Saudi Arabia’s Specialized Criminal Court sentenced a prominent human rights activist to five years in prison on June 17, 2013, based on his writings and exposure of human rights abuses. Mikhlif al-Shammari was convicted of “sowing discord” and other offenses and barred from travelling for 10 years.”

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/22/saudi-arabia-5-year-sentence-rights-defender

    He was charged with actions that are illegal in Saudi Arabia so he is, from what you said above (“Free speech operates within the confines of law in all countries.”) guilty as charged.

    As to Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 there are many detractors:

    “The Public Order Act prohibits such actions if they are deemed likely to cause “harassment, alarm or distress”.

    “A student was reportedly arrested for calling a police officer’s horse “gay”.

    “Senior CONSERVATIVE David Davis said the law – which the government is looking at changing – could have a “chilling effect on democracy”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18084081

    And I’m sure you know this phrase:

    “Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.”

  28. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 9:05 pm

    thx fedup

    http://english.irib.ir/radioislam/news/islam-in-asia/item/87650-saudi-regime-burn-cars-houses-during-operation-to-arrest-rights-activist

    Human rights on the march. Power is not relinquished easily. It must be won

    Mohandas

    “The cry for peace will be a cry in the wilderness, so long as the spirit of nonviolence does not dominate millions of men and women.

    An armed conflict between nations horrifies us. But the economic war is no better than an armed conflict. This is like a surgical operation. An economic war is prolonged torture. And its ravages are no less terrible than those depicted in the literature on war properly so called. We think nothing of the other because we are used to its deadly effects. …

    The movement against war is sound. I pray for its success. But I cannot help the gnawing fear that the movement will fail if it does not touch the root of all evil — man’s greed.

  29. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 9:20 pm

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/28/jfk-second-shooter-documentary_n_3667317.html

    “Addressing the crowd, McLaren claimed that Hickey and other Secret Service agents were out partying the night before Kennedy’s fatal motorcade drive through Dallas. Based on his painstaking investigation, McLaren said, evidence suggests Hickey was not qualified to use the weapon he was holding the morning of the shooting.

    “It was his first time in the follow car, his first time holding the assault weapon he was using,” McLaren said. Producers said the film’s theory is that shots rang out, and Hickey grabbed his weapon to return fire. When his car stopped suddenly, Hickey accidentally discharged his weapon — making him the second shooter, the film’s investigators and producers alleged.”

    Gawd. They keep trying. The problem is, the guy was in the follow car. This is one of the linchpins of the multiple shooter scenario. Zap’s film clearly shows Kennedy was shot from the front, as the physics of impact would force the head forward, not back if the 2nd shot hit from the ‘follow’ car. Try again. I’m sure they will.

  30. ‘Is This The Most Embarrassing Interview Fox News Has Ever Done?’

    “Reza Aslan, a religious scholar with a Ph.D. in the sociology of religions from the University of California and author of the new book, Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, went on FoxNews.com’s online show Spirited Debate to promote his book, only to be prodded about why a Muslim would write a historical book about Jesus.”

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/is-this-the-most-embarrassing-interview-fox-news-has-ever-do

  31. “Is that a grey hat, A Node? I’d have thought it were black or white.”

    I got it from the mad hatter, Ben, extra large size.

  32. Flaming June

    29 Jul, 2013 - 9:36 pm

    29 July 2013
    Car key immobiliser hack revelations blocked by UK court
    Megamos Crypto transponders are built into car keys to disable the vehicles’ engine immobilisers

    Related Stories
    Car hackers ‘drive’ car with laptop
    Car control systems ‘vulnerable’

    A High Court judge has blocked three security researchers from publishing details of how to crack a car immobilisation system.

    German car maker Volkswagen and French defence group Thales obtained the interim ruling after arguing that the information could be used by criminals.

    The technology is used by several car manufacturers.

    The academics had planned to present the information at a conference in August.

    The three researchers are Flavio Garcia, a computer science lecturer at the University of Birmingham, and Baris Ege and Roel Verdult, security researchers at Radboud University Nijmegen in the Netherlands.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23487928

  33. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 9:40 pm

    Pam Geller, as usual is taking the lead on this Dreoilin.

    Jesus was a prophet according to the Quran. Not to mention Moses and the other Patriarchs.

    Islam was a direct descendant of Judaism through Abraham’s concubine Hagar. He was growing impatient with YHWH’s promise of providing the seed leading to the Lamb. He had relations with Hagar and a son was born. Ishmael and Hagar were banished when Sara (Abes wife) finally conceived and birthed Isaac in her 90’s. It’s perfectly appropriate for a muslim to write of the history of Jesus. They have a history.

  34. Phil, 4.31pm

    Interesting link. Seems to cover exactly the same ground, though, that the NSA has been working on since 1997 – perfecting automatic machine-transcription of voice recordings. Uses exactly the same terms – “word salad” etc – they did back then.

    NSA Transcribing Voice 17 Years Ago
    http://rixstep.com/1/20130614,00.shtml

    On US Patent 5,937,422 & ‘Semantic Forests’
    http://rixstep.com/2/20130614,00.shtml

  35. fedup, ben, dreoilin: thanks for links. also suhayl on counterrevolution thread.

  36. Flaming June
    29 Jul, 2013 – 1:20 pm

    The witch is dead!

    “BREAKING NEWS:Lady Thatcher’s funeral cost taxpayers £1.2 million, according to figures released by the government”

    Not according to the Guardian Mary:

    “The overall cost of Lady Thatcher’s funeral to the taxpayer was around £3.2m, the Cabinet Office said on Monday.”

    “In a written ministerial statement, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, a government whip, said the direct policing and security costs were £943,833 and the costs of the funeral itself were £261,976.”

    BUT:

    “The Cabinet Office also confirmed the “opportunity cost” of the policing – the cost of having 4,000 officers guarding the funeral and hence not available for duties elsewhere – was estimated at £2m.”

    AND:

    “More than 700 members of the armed forces were also involved in the event in April, but the Cabinet Office said it did not have an “opportunity cost” for their deployment because this was much harder to calculate than for the police.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/29/margaret-thatcher-funeral-cost-taxpayers

    I wonder if they took the cost of the funeral rehearsal into account as well.

  37. I am looking forward to the internet being restricted.
    To be fair the only real use it will serve is an on line shop.
    Won’t it then be so simple?

    Ps Who likes shopping?

  38. Komodo: Fine points. I recall being challenged about why I wasn’t demonstrating in front of the Iranian embassy, because I didn’t like our own country attacking an unarmed country (Iraq) which had done nothing to us. Neat, eh? If you’re not willing to protest one country for its human rights record, you have no business criticising your own country’s war crimes.

    This highly useful ploy only has a couple of problems. For one, an Iranian might ask why I’m not complaining about my own country. The question itself fails to consider that I might already (for instance, through Amnesty) be calling on Iran to respect human rights.

    But surely, Iran is doing nothing in my name, and is not being run by my supposed representatives. And there are so many countries with bad records from which to choose, not all of them Official Enemies. A lot of the nastier governments are Official Friends, or at least, have no effective official attention paid to them at all.

    As the old saying goes, charity begins at home (and usually stays there). One shouldn’t expect too much else when it comes to protests either, that hardly represents a moral failing.

    *

    Jon: I replied to your message to me on censorship in these forums, btw.

  39. “It’s perfectly appropriate for a muslim to write of the history of Jesus. They have a history.”

    But of course, Ben. Just as a Christian with a PhD in the history of religions would feel perfectly entitled to write about Muhammad.

    The Fox woman just came across as ignorant. What has Pamela Geller got to say? More ignorance and bias?

  40. Why dose it take some folk so long to Pipe up

    Anyway 17 MEPs have written a letter calling on U.S. President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel to free WikiLeaks whistle-blower Army Pfc. Bradley Manning. The MEPs laud Manning for exposing “evidence of human rights abuses and apparent war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan” in accordance with international law.

    “Bradley Manning’s courageous action, for which he has three times been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, was an inspiration to others, including Edward Snowden, who recently revealed massive U.S. government surveillance in the U.S. and also against European governments and citizens.

    We are concerned that the U.S. administration’s war on whistleblowers such as Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning is a deterrent to the process of democracy in both the United States and Europe.

    We hereby urge you to end the persecution of Bradley Manning, a young gay man who has been imprisoned for over three years, including ten months in solitary confinement, under conditions that the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Juan Mendez deemed “cruel and abusive.” Bradley Manning has already suffered too much, and he should be freed as soon as humanly possible”

    http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/european-parliamentarians-call-on-president-obama-to-free-bradley-manning

    John @ 8;01pm.
    Only 200 signatures needed – Most exelent

  41. “That most charming of couples: Nationalism and hypocrisy”

    William Blum’s Anti-Empire Report

    http://williamblum.org/aer/read/119

  42. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 11:38 pm

  43. Fedup @ 8;49 Chilling news indeed.

    i reckon you are spot on when you say we would be unlikely to hear of this anywhere else

    A quick Google search produced only 2 pages of….absoultely NOTHING of this news

  44. Arbed at 9.55 pm. These are really good links. Those of us who have been under the monitor for decades, that is everyone who studied Russian during in the Soviet government, everyone who belonged to animal rights (and human rights) movements and left-wing organisations all fell under the umbrella.

    Bob Cryer MP was doing the same thing as Julian Assange nearly a decade earlier. He died in a car-incident. I keep mentioning Bob, not just because I knew him, but because since his death nobody has questioned why we have Menwith Hill and (now) other US communications’ interception stations. He was singular in his day. I believe he was targeted.

    Although the US holds information on all UK citizens and their histories nobody wants to sign an Epetition to try and bring this to an end. You might as well be honest and say yes I do not want my information to be garnered by US intelligence because they already know who you are.

    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/52312

    I have written to my MP, Steve McCabe, about why we have an American base intercepting our communications. He normally responds. Not with this one. They are all scared shitless.

  45. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    29 Jul, 2013 - 11:48 pm

    “I long for a modern version of the Army-McCarthy hearings of 1954 at which Carney – or much better, Barack Obama himself – is spewing one lie and one sickening defense of his imperialist destruction after another. And the committee counsel (in the famous words of Joseph Welch) is finally moved to declare: “Sir, you’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?” The Congressional gallery burst into applause and this incident is widely marked as the ‘

    I remember that archetypal moment as it was the turning point for McCarthy/Kennedy and the shameless witch-hunts, Dreoilin.

    I think things are getting to that point in Congress and with the American Public. But Nationalism is not just an American problem.

  46. Thanks Ben. I’ll read Geller and head off to bed.

    “But Nationalism is not just an American problem.”

    No, for sure it’s not.

    G’night

  47. Brian, signed and commented.

  48. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    29 Jul, 2013 – 7:08 pm

    “Komodo says:

    “Because these are our countries and their allies, and the abuses are conducted in our name. We object.”

    Habbabkuk says:

    “Anyway : nobody here is asking you or the other Eminences to talk about “this abuse” rather than “that abuse” – we just wonder why you don’t talk about both.”

    We do Habbabkuk; we talk about all human rights abuses on this blog (Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Milton Keynes).

    Habbabkuk then says:

    “The only reason you don’t that occurs to me is that you think human rights are divisible – omportant [sic] for the West to maintain, not important for others.”

    Human rights should not be divisible Mr Habbabkuk but they are. In the United States blacks have less human rights (in practice) then good old American white boys. Guantanamo Bay needs no further comment.

    Arab-Israeli’s do not have the same rights as Jews. Israel operates an Apartheid system not only in the occupied territories but in Israel itself.

    “Former U.S. general: Settlements liable to turn Israel into an apartheid state”

    “Mattis discussed the dangers to Israel’s future and mentioned the settlements as an example. “If I’m in Jerusalem and I put 500 Jewish settlers out here to the east and there’s 10,000 Arab settlers in here, if we draw the border to include them, either it ceases to be a Jewish state or you say the Arabs don’t get to vote – apartheid.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.537867#Scene_1

    “A former South African ambassador to Israel has invited the fury of the Israeli government by describing its treatment of the country’s Palestinian Bedouin community as akin to apartheid.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10130337/Ex-South-African-Israel-ambassador-likens-Bedouin-treatment-to-apartheid.html

    “More than two-thirds of Israeli Jews say that 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank should be denied the right to vote if the area was annexed by Israel, in effect endorsing an apartheid state, according to an opinion poll reported in Haaretz.”

    “Three out of four are in favour of segregated roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, and 58% believe Israel already practises apartheid against Palestinians, the poll found.”

    “A third want Arab citizens within Israel to be banned from voting in elections to the country’s parliament. Almost six out of 10 say Jews should be given preference to Arabs in government jobs, 49% say Jewish citizens should be treated better than Arabs, 42% would not want to live in the same building as Arabs and the same number do not want their children going to school with Arabs.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/23/israeli-poll-majority-apartheid-policies

    If you want to justify Zionism Habbabkuk (et al) then engage in an intelligent discussion on the points above.

    If you want to talk about Pakistan; Russia; India; China; Cuba etc fair enough but the subject at the moment is human rights abuses by the west mostly the US and Israel.

    Let’s deal with that first.

  49. “A third want Arab citizens within Israel to be banned from voting in elections to the country’s parliament. Almost six out of 10 say Jews should be given preference to Arabs in government jobs, 49% say Jewish citizens should be treated better than Arabs, 42% would not want to live in the same building as Arabs and the same number do not want their children going to school with Arabs.”

    Actually, this sounds analogous to certain attitudes common throughout Northern Ireland not so long ago. The exclusions and protests reflected a deep schism of cultural mistrust and suspicion. While there are still pockets of ingrained bigotry, the situation has vastly improved. Progress has been made by working together and building some degree of trust – quite the opposite of the kind of resolute demonizing still dominating the Israeli/Palestinian relations and associated commentaries.

  50. BrianFujisan

    30 Jul, 2013 - 1:34 am

    Revolting, and indefensible

    So in this country they arrest you for calling MP’s cowards, which most are, in the usa they raid your home and lock you up for facebook babblings
    Oh, and don’t get into a Quarrel with one of “ours”

    Lawsuit: SWAT Officers Dragged 10-Year-Old from Bathtub, Made Him Stand Naked Next to 4-Year-Old Sister, Terrorized Family
    14 police officers with helmets and facemasks and assault rifles stormed in, family says.

    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/lawsuit-swat-officers-dragged-10-year-old-bathtub-made-him-stand-naked-next-4-year

    WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE NOT BEING ARRESTED IN ISREAL

    This is only a small selection of the representative and typical comments posted under the picture of the three boys in the tent. All of these comments were in Hebrew and have been translated:

    “Disgusting. Burn the tent” – Oriel Diller

    “Eliminate” – Zevika Gvirz

    “Artillery training ‘mistake’ ” – Igor Gonopolskiy

    “Burn them” – Yaron Gringauz

    “May you die garbage Arabs, amen!” – Shahar Dayan

    “Run them over and shoot them. It’s not complicated!” – Elad Sender

    “Take the tent with the people in it, put it on a trailer and dump them back where they came from” – Sharon Carmi

    “A hand grenade inside the tent!” – Dvir Dagan

    “Put a couple of bullets in their heads and we’re done” – Adi Maman

    “Set them on fire” – Yosef Porotzky

    “Fuck them” – Aria Yehudai

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/castrate-them-burn-them-bullet-head-facebook-israelis-react-photo-palestinian

    John great work on the Famous in Planes stats

  51. @Doug – We have been lied to by the “Yorkshire Methodist” that he is also a “good Catholic boy” but methinks habba might just be another Lithuanian with a Scottish accent like Malcolm Rifkind. But Hoffman or Maxwell or whatever his name is, seems to enjoy flying out of Manchester to play volleyball with the DIY trannies on Tel Aviv beach.Might even be a “Lady Porter” in tax exile?

  52. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:22 am

    Doug Ref the cost of Thatcher’s funeral.

    I was asked if I had eaten my hat!

    I said:

    Sorry. I never wear hats unlike the royal hangers-on who spend £thousands and thousands on millinery.

    Plus Plus Plus… we will never know the true cost.

    Margaret Thatcher’s funeral cost taxpayers more than £3m
    Cabinet Office confirms policing and security costs for former prime minister’s funeral in April

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/29/margaret-thatcher-funeral-cost-taxpayers

    Nota Bene Never, ever, believe anything this ‘government’ tells you.

  53. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:59 am

    @Komodo, Brian, Doug and generic Eministas.

    Thanks for addressing Dad’s moan that we only have eyes for western abuses.

    Yes, it does boil down “to the abuses are conducted in our name. We object.”

    @Dad! You are welcome to broaden the debate. Let’s see who else is in the league. We might then be able to compare and see which states come out on top. Your call now.

  54. Habba:

    Douche.

  55. I mean… buying this line…really.

    Have you perchance forgotten to mention that President Mahmoud Abbas has said that the Palestinians will also be asked to vote in their own referendum on any peace deal?

    Which seems rather fair to me – both sides to any peace deal will have their say in referenda.

    1. There won’t be a peace deal. The facts on the ground are established. The US will not pressure Israel to dismantle its illegal settlements or vacate East Jerusalem, far less return Jerusalem as a whole to its status as a multi-faith city or allow free and unrestricted access between the various Palestinian enclaves.

    2. When Gaza voted Hamas in, the Israelis were forced to concede that this was an acceptably free and fair election. Then they not only branded Hamas a terrorist organisation and refused to have any dealings with it, but coerced the US and Europe to do the same. Do you seriously think that any referendum by the West Bank, if not in the interests of European and American Jewish immigrants, will have any leverage at all? If the Jews vote against this hypothetical deal, that will be enough to scupper it.
    2.

  56. That the whataboutry Excrescences are first, foremost & only Trolls, is revealed beyond any doubt by their refusal to argue their “case” for the accusation regulatory posted here iro of an “anti-West narrative”. KOWN did bother some weeks ago now, to state the blindly obvious in response;

    “No, I genuinely don’t believe in the existence of the ‘anti-West narrative’ that you frequently inveigh against. I do think most posters on this thread are united by disgust and anger for much of what the West does, but that is not the same thing. As for the examples you cite – mistreatment of women in India, for example – I think the reason people don’t post on such issues is simply that these things are universally condemned and hardly worth the effort of pointing out on a forum where it can be tacitly assumed most people are on the same page. What gets people’s goat here, I submit without a trace of faux-naivety, is those instances where there is a chasm between the cruel things the west does and the way they are laundered and perfumed by such organs as the BBC.”

    Of course none of the Excrescences even tried to reply, despite repeated requests to do so; the best & all they can do is keep repeating the accusation, mantra like, just like a piece of religious mumbo-jumbo that is too sacred to be justified, and is in fact beyond rational explanation.

    I repeat my own response to KOWN comment;

    “Well said; that people can’t see the difference, it could because of experiencing a mirror projection of their own reflected prejudices, or perhaps even be indicative of some sort of mental disorder, which would also account for why these same people repeatedly insist that others must publically condemn that which only the most unprincipled would ever consider condoning.”

  57. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:13 am

    @Hasbarakuk.

    Come on Dad! Don’t be so shy.

  58. It’s his morning at the Aldi checkout, Sifia.

  59. Sofia, apologies.

  60. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:35 am

    @Komodom.

    No offense taken

  61. heh

  62. Approximately 18% of the West Bank has been designated as a closed military zone for training, or “firing
    zone”; this is roughly the same amount of the West Bank under full Palestinian authority (Area A, 17.7%)….

    Most of the families residing in or near the firing zones are herders, who rely on grazing
    land for their livelihood. They routinely face restrictions on grazing livestock in these
    areas and are subject to substantial fines and/or imprisonment. Reduced access to grazing areas has resulted in increased dependency on fodder and the overgrazing of some areas, both of which contribute to diminished livelihoods.

    Residents of firing zones face a range of other difficulties including the confiscation of property, settler violence, harassment by soldiers, access and movement restrictions and/or water scarcity. Combined, these conditions [others are listed on the page – K] contribute to a coercive environment that creates pressure on Palestinian communities to leave these areas.

    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_firing_zone_factsheet_august_2012_english.pdf

    The map says the rest.

  63. Aparrently health chiefs as well as making a packet have made an admittance regarding the state of yhe NHS care. Included in the statemen apparrently staff are having to cut care time to individuals and make better appropiations .

    @ Glenn uk.

    What’s going on?

    Ps I love shopping too.

  64. How can anyone deny that ethnic cleansing is the objective? Does this look like Israel contemplating a Palestinian state? Answers, Habba. Answers.

    http://nofiringzone918.org/2013/07/29/amnesty-international-appeals-against-eviction/

    …But answer came there none
    And this was scarcely odd, because
    They’d eaten every one.

    {Lewis Carroll: The Walrus and the Carpenter)

  65. Peace process? Two-state solution? What sort of dreamland are we required to live in, Habba?
    Economy Minister and Jewish Home Chairman Naftali Bennett is the latest MK to join a robust list of Israeli government coalition members who have publicly stated that the two-state solution is dead and that the notion of a Palestinian state is a thing of the past. Although it’s no new position for him, Bennett is making it clear that no matter what Prime Minister Netanyahu says or what polls show, the Israel of 2013 is squarely against a two-state solution.

    Bennett stated that ”the idea of forming a Palestinian state in Israel has reached a dead end,” speaking at a settler council meeting Monday morning, comparing the “Palestinian problem” to a “piece of shrapnel” lodged in someone’s rear end; that one needs to learn to live with a pain in the ass rather than surgically remove it and risk becoming disabled.

    Bennett also asserted there is no occupation, since Israeli Jews cannot be occupiers in their own home (echoing the Netanyahu-commissioned Levy Report from nearly a year ago that concluded there is no occupation) and called on Israel to annex Area C of the West Bank. This is similar to what Likud MK and former Knesset speaker Reuven Rivlin said last year: “Today, almost 20 years since Oslo, one could clearly argue that the idea of separating between the nations has failed … Between the Jordan River and the sea, there can only be one state, Jewish and democratic, with a solid Jewish majority.”

    Translation: It’s safe to come out of the woodwork now, lads. Indyk’s our boy.

    http://972mag.com/one-by-one-israels-coalition-members-abandon-two-state-rhetoric/73829/

  66. “Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist’s real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.”

    Ted Kaczynski (who had a fine mind before he lost it).

  67. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 10:59 am

    @Anon. 10 52am

    “Leftists tend to hate anything…”

    “Ted Kaczynski (who had a fine mind before he lost it).”

    What a pity you quoted his later work.

  68. I don’t see anything on the Press TV YouTube later than five days ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/PressTVGlobalNews/videos

    and the story is still up on their website

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/07/28/316016/google-disables-press-tv-youtube-account/

    where they say

    “We have not been able to upload any new videos since early Thursday,” said Press TV newsroom director, Hamid Reza Emadi, adding that Google has disabled the channel’s account without giving any explanation.

  69. Anon, was that quote from before or after Kacynski having lost his mind? Because it makes perfect sense to me.

  70. It’s the assumption that, er, ‘leftists’ (ie people who do not agree with him on the undiluted wonderfulness of global capitalism)…’hate’. In his lexicon, I am not allowed to ‘deplore’, ‘disparage’, ‘censure’, ‘object to’ or just plain ‘dislike’. No, it’s all or nothing. Possibly because ‘rightists’ are incapable of nuance or precision, and they simply think in soundbites? Or maybe hatred is all they understand?

    Now I’d certainly hate, someone, or an entity, who evicted me from my property without compensation, knocked my house down and built his own on the site. Not for his nationality, but for his actions;

    http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20130730/101147.shtml

    I deplore my country’s support for that entity, though. I don’t hate my country, and I don’t hate the West.

  71. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 11:19 am

    Around Nablus more than 2500 olive trees were destroyedh in the first two weeks of June.

    The attackers were protected and the firefighters prevented by, guess which army?

    Is this the prelude to a “Peace Process”?

  72. More on the proposed monster rail network connecting the settlements (and further dividing the Palestinian bantustans):

    The rail project, which has been in development for several years and sucked up several million shekels from the budget, appears, at first glance, to be the flagship plan for a future annexation. After all, what country declares that it intends to invest billions in territory not under its sovereignty?

    Since we have not heard that this plan includes checkpoints at the railway stations, screening and X-ray booths, or any special manpower that will make the Palestinians late for their train every morning, one could conclude that the government plans to grant citizenship to the Palestinian train passengers, and that the train is a means to promote the forthcoming binational state.*

    It’s clear to every intelligent person that the Israeli government is playing a childish game of “If only,” and that this fantasy will be buried before even one meter of track is built. Yet the members of the Supreme Planning Council in the occupied territories agreed to back the program. Who would not have wanted to be a fly on the wall during that weird debate?

    Some details leaked out, including the question of why a line was needed in the sparsely populated Jordan Valley. The response of the planner – that the line is meant to transport tourists from the Dead Sea to Lake Kinneret – discloses the degree to which all those involved in this initiative are disengaged from reality.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.538478

    *couldn’t one? The excrescences could.

  73. I’m nervous about the verdict in the Bradley Manning trial. They’ll be so anxious to make an example of him …

    “That’s an outrageous charge with the greatest potential for dealing almost a deathblow to investigative journalism involving national security,” said Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg, during a news conference Friday. “The interpretation of his motives is an absurd fantasy that he did this for fame or for his own purposes, let alone to give information to an enemy to which he clearly does not adhere a requirement for a treason charge anymore than I did.”

    ‘Manning Verdict May Topple Journalistic Paradigm’

    http://truth-out.org/news/item/17854-bradley-manning-verdict-may-topple-a-journalistic-paradigm

  74. PA bribed to attend?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/07/26/presidential-memorandum-waiver-restriction-providing-funds-palestinian-a

    Still, even if he doesn’t realise what he’s up against with the Israelis, an encouraging gesture from Obama.

  75. Kaczynski wasn’t exactly a big believer in the wonderfulness of global capitalism, Komodo.

    Jemand, I remember reading his manifesto some time ago and was absoloutely bowled over by how he dissects the pyschology of modern leftism. Absolutely everything he writes on it could be applied here to the Murrayistas, whether they be talking of the Gaza ‘concentration camp’, signing petitions to stop birds having their wings clipped, going to protests dressed in orange jumpsuits, or Mary bemoaning various “poor souls”. It could have been written about John Goss, for one!

    Here is his manifesto should anyone be interested in reading it:

    http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt

    I think using pipe-bombs to try and further one’s aims shows a degree of loss of sanity, but it may be argued that Kaczynski was acting rationally and with sanity throughout.

  76. The sole purpose of the civil wars started by UK snipers in Syria and now being started by snipers in Egypt off the roof of Al Azhar Islamic University, between factions of power in Islam, those who acquiesce to foreign power in their Muslim countries, and those who are paid by foreign countries to oppose those foreign powers, is , to gain supply from and control of the copious water supplies of those two countries for the state of greater Israel.

    If the LibDems don’t want to give me their whip, I’m still partial to a bit of strawberry instant whip with raspberries instead of cream.

  77. Opinion shifting on NSA surveillance –

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/29/us/politics/momentum-builds-against-nsa-surveillance.html?src=recg

    “I represent a very reasonable district in suburban Philadelphia, and my constituents are expressing a growing concern on the sweeping amounts of data that the government is compiling,” said Representative Michael G. Fitzpatrick, a moderate Republican who represents one of the few true swing districts left in the House and who voted on Wednesday to limit N.S.A. surveillance.

    Hates the West, obviously.

  78. Kaczynski wasn’t exactly a big believer in the wonderfulness of global capitalism, Komodo.

    I was referring to your beliefs. Ambiguity unintentional, badly expressed. Evidence: most of your posts.

    Kaczynski: What struck me was the similarity of his manifesto to the vaguely-structured rants that emerge when anyone literate, including myself, attempts to record their thoughts on life, the universe and everything for posterity. I have spared the public similar works on a couple of occasions, (a) because I found I was boring myself to death and (b) I realised that obtaining the necessary publicity by killing completely uninvolved people might well prove counterproductive either in the short or the long run.

    See also “Mein Kampf”, in which some obvious truths are also embedded in a torrent of kack.

    Good piece on the West Bank and the doomed nature of the peace process here, btw:

    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2013/07/30/west-bank-settlements-complicate-negotiations.html

  79. Cross posted from Medialens.

    Chris Hedges: Incarceration in America is a business.
    Posted by MikeD on July 30, 2013, 9:15 am

    Poor people, especially those of color, are worth nothing to corporations and private contractors if they are on the street. In jails and prisons, however, they each can generate corporate revenues of $30,000 to $40,000 a year. This use of the bodies of the poor to make money for corporations fuels the system of neoslavery that defines our prison system.

    http://www.newsforage.com/2013/07/chris-hedges-poor-people-especially.html

    The United States has spent $300 billion since 1980 to expand its prison system. We imprison 2.2 million people, 25 percent of the world’s prison population. For every 100,000 adults in this country there are 742 behind bars. Five million are on parole. Only 30 to 40 percent are white.

    Incarceration has become a very lucrative business for an array of private contractors, most of whom send lobbyists to Washington to make sure the laws and legislation continue to funnel a steady supply of poor people into the prison complex. These private contractors, taking public money, build the prisons, provide food service, hire guards and run and administer detention facilities. It is imperative to their profits that there be a steady supply of new bodies.

  80. Anon, John Goss is a good soul despite whatever political or personality differences exist between you two. He is also amenable to shifting ground when presented with compelling arguments.

    Anyway, I did browse over TK’s manifesto some years ago and was impressed with his intelligence. How his ideas translated into homicidal actions, I never discovered. But your quote does effectively describe a certain kind of automatic contrarianism of the Left as a desperate attempt to distinguish themselves from the often cold-blooded egoism of the Right. That’s why I despise both.

  81. I saw a news piece this morning on a couple who were part of the joint action in the High Court against the housing benefit cuts aka the ‘bedroom tax’. Lord Justice Laws has thrown it out but Richard Stein of Leigh, Day & Co Solicitors says that there will be an appeal.

    This is them speaking post the High Court decision.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23503095

    The wife has spina bifida and sleeps in one small bedroom in a special hospital type bed with a special mattress. The other bedroom, also small, accommodates her husband, who is her full time carer, and all the equipment needed for her care. The couple are having £14 a week taken away from them on the basis that they have a spare room.

    The judge in the case was Lord Justice Laws. Shame on him.

    He is a ‘Visitor’ *whatever that means) at Cumberland Lodge, another Establishment nest of preciousness located in Windsor Great Park, Patron HM Queen. The bedrooms there are massive and one of them could accommodate a dozen spina bifida victims.

    http://www.cumberlandlodge.ac.uk/

    The mob in charge http://www.cumberlandlodge.ac.uk/aboutus/People/trustees

    The accommodation http://www.cumberlandlodge.ac.uk/venue/Accommodation+New

    We are now living under a very cruel system.

  82. I, too, am glad you have spared us your diatribe On Life, the Universe and Everything, Komodo, not least because it would have turned into On Jews, Israel and Zionism from about page 2 onwards.

    Putting aside your idiotic comparison with Mein Kampf for a moment, do share with us some of those “obvious truths” contained within it. Is it the bit where he finds out who’s responsible for all the problems afflicting Germany?

    Kaczynski’s manifesto is not a rant. You may disagree with it, as I do with much of it concerning de-industrialization, but he has the modern left bang to rights, which is, of course, why you dismiss it as a rant!

  83. Jemand –

    Clue for us here:

    Ostensibly, the manifesto is a strong critique of contemporary techno-capitalist society. However, if you took a knife to the text, divided it into little passages, you would discover that half of them bend far leftward and could be read aloud without protest in Harvard yard, while the other half bend far rightward and could only be read aloud without protest at Hillsdale College.

    So, you have passages such as this one, which would send heads nodding in every humanities department in America:

    The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world.

    But then comes this curveball:

    One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.

    Like many on the Left, Kaczynski blames technology and ‘the system’ for the sad state of the earth and its inhabitants, yet he suggests that the contemporary Left (the “oversocialized” Left, as Ted puts it) is in fact the system’s most malformed, though logical outgrowth.

    At first, I couldn’t recognize the motive behind the manifesto. Its politics seemed too conflicted. Then I noticed a brief mention in Kaczynski’s Wikipedia article that ties him to the anarcho-primitive tradition, and suddenly the text became more philosophically cohesive.

    More:

    http://technaverbascripta.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/text-network-and-corpus-analysis-of-the-unabomber-manifesto/

  84. Sarah Colborne of the PSC on ‘G4S must be halted in its tracks’

    With the BBC currently considering bids for an £80 million security contract, pressure is growing on the broadcaster not to award the deal to G4S.

    G4S is seen as a key international target for the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement due to its involvement in Israeli prison services and other contracts.

    /..

    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/135957

  85. “Absolutely everything he writes on it could be applied here to the Murrayistas, whether they be talking of the Gaza ‘concentration camp’, signing petitions to stop birds having their wings clipped, going to protests dressed in orange jumpsuits, or Mary bemoaning various “poor souls”. It could have been written about John Goss, for one!” — Anon

    Clearly Anon believes that compassion is a bad thing. We must work to get rid of it.

  86. There seems to have been no clarity on the very first question: Is propaganda a means or an end?
    It is a means and must therefore be judged with regard to its end. It must consequently take a form calculated to support the aim which it serves. It is also obvious that its aim can vary in importance from the standpoint of general need, and that the inner value of the propaganda will vary accordingly. The aim for which we were fighting the War was the loftiest, the most overpowering, that man can conceive: it was the freedom and independence of our nation, the security of our future food supply, and-our national honor; a thing which, despite all contrary opinions prevailing today, nevertheless exists, or rather should exist, since peoples without honor have sooner or later lost their freedom and independence, which in turn is only the result of a higher justice, since generations of rabble without honor deserve no freedom. Any man who wants to be a cowardly slave can have no honor) or honor itself would soon fall into general contempt.

    Adolf Hitler: Mein Kampf, VI, ‘War Propaganda’

    Don’t think you’ll have to try too hard to agree with that, Anon….

    And no, I doubt if my rants would even mention Israel. I focus on it here to annoy and counter the likes of you.

  87. “He is a ‘Visitor’ *whatever that means) at Cumberland Lodge, another Establishment nest of preciousness located in Windsor Great Park, Patron HM Queen. The bedrooms there are massive and one of them could accommodate a dozen spina bifida victims.”

    Yes, Mary, and your bedroom could sleep two homeless people. Your car could be used as an ambulance to convey injured persons to hospital. Why, your house could even be knocked down and a surgery built in place of it. Now I’ve told the follwers of the Craig Murray blog about this terrible injustice, I feel so much better about myself.

  88. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 12:44 pm

    @Komodo. 12 06am

    Re Kackinsky

    “…torrent of kack.”

    When I try to read that stuff I realise that, like poetry, it needs to vocalised. Plain reading it misses so much, but you wouldn’t want to do that voice for too long. You’d scare yourself.

  89. As Hitler said, Dreoilin:

    …where the destiny and existence of a people are at stake, all obligation toward beauty ceases…And since these criteria of humanitarianism and beauty must be eliminated from the struggle, they are also inapplicable to propaganda.. (ibid)

    I’m sure Anon agrees.

  90. Thanks, Sofia. Bit like the Qu’ran, maybe? No, maybe not.

  91. Not the title of a film but a story about two worlds. One – abject poverty and slum dwelling and the other – greed, corruption, theft, exploitation and rich living.

    The tycoon, the dictator’s wife and the $2.5bn Guinea mining deal

    [..]
    In years past, during the dying days of Lansana Conté, the army general who ruled Guinea with an iron grip for almost all of his quarter-century tenure, an Israeli-French billionaire could be spotted similarly holding court at Conakry’s once popular Novotel. Beny Steinmetz, one of the wealthiest men in the world, came here, sources say, with a clear mission. “Beny Steinmetz wanted to make sure he was the closest white man to President Conté,” said one former presidential aide of the president.

    The tycoon also wanted, and successfully obtained, the rights to mine Simandou – a mountain range in Guinea’s remote south-east containing millions of tonnes of iron ore of the highest grade. According to some estimates, the ore from Simandou could generate around $140bn over the next 25 years, more than doubling the country’s GDP.

    [..]
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/30/africa-guinea-mining-bsgr-steinmetz

    I hope the FBI hang the Israeli-French Beny out to dry.

    Ian Cobain is a brilliant journalist.

  92. Komodo, those parts you quote don’t appear to be contradictory unless you hold firm Left or Right political sentiments. The fact that TK didn’t, and you acknowledge that in your closing comment, indicates that he did indeed hold a coherent view of how he saw humanity’s predicament.

    While I have a degree in science and am an enthusiastic user and advocate of technological solutions, I hold the consumer-industrial paradigm of the Western lifestyle in utter contempt for what it has become and fails to address in terms of human destiny and purpose.

    Say, you don’t know where I can pick up a few hundred kilos of nitrogen fertiliser, do you? Anyone? 

  93. @ Jemand.

    I despise loathe is a much more suitable term of utterance.

    Soryy to be a piss ant.

  94. Jemand, I’d say he held, like most of us, a confused picture of the human predicament. The comment isn’t mine, but from the link. It’s a POV…and just as guilty of categorising K, as K is of categorising, for the convenience of his preconceptions, people he doesn’t agree with. Labels.

    Who said this?

    What, for example, would we say about a poster that was supposed to advertise a new soap and that described other soaps as ‘good’?
    We would only shake our heads.
    Exactly the same applies to political advertising.

    Clue: [ibid]

    He’s a mine of information on the topic. Should be required reading in yeshivas.

  95. “Clearly Anon believes that compassion is a bad thing. We must work to get rid of it.”

    For all her dislike of Mary, Dreoilin is in fact far more similar to her than she would like to think, as the absurd statement above illustrates.

    Needless to say, Dreoilin, questioning what motivates the particular brand of compassion you choose to display on these boards does not mean I think compassion is a bad thing, or want to get rid of it, but it does allow you to promote yourself as the compassionate one and feel better about yourself.

    Let’s see what Kaczynski has to say about this:

    “Generally speaking, the goals of today’s leftists are NOT in conflict with the accepted morality. On the contrary, the left takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as its own, and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle. Examples: racial equality, equality of the sexes, helping poor people, peace as opposed to war, nonviolence generally, freedom of expression, kindness to animals.”

    Back to the comparison with Mary, her textbook response to my reply to her above would be something along the lines of “Clearly Anon wants to get rid of disabled people”.

  96. Nothing wrong with holding apparently contradictory views. Mark of an intelligent person, someone once said. Uncompromising supporters of Israel/Palestine take note.

  97. Generally speaking, the goals of today’s leftists are NOT in conflict with the accepted morality. On the contrary, the left takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as its own,

    Anything wrong with that? Left adopts mainstream position, yes? Accepts consensus, no?

    and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle.

    Bit missing here: should add “when it violates that principle”, I think. There’s not much point even for a comic stereotype lefty (they tend to be intellectuals, you know, and think about things, lefties) in accusing the RSPCA of intentional cruelty to animals, is there?

    Examples: racial equality, equality of the sexes, helping poor people, peace as opposed to war, nonviolence generally, freedom of expression, kindness to animals.”

    With which, as a mainstream member of mainstream society, you have already admitted you agree.

    You’re floundering.

    What Dreoilin linked.

  98. “questioning what motivates the particular brand of compassion you choose to display on these boards does not mean …”

    How many “brands” of compassion are there?
    Could you enumerate them please?

    And I don’t “dislike” Mary. I think she could “unbend” a little, now and then. Which is completely different from “disliking”.

  99. ” I focus on it [Israel] here to annoy and counter the likes of you.”

    So there we have it, ladies and gents. Komodo’s obsession with Israel is all a show, to annoy me (it doesn’t, though it probably annoys lurkers) and counter me (I’ve never expressed any support one way or the other).

  100. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 1:46 pm

    Don’t respond to him/her Dreoilin. He/she and others are only here to disrupt and divide.

    I think that it is some kind of badge of honour to be picked out by name by one of these trolls.

  101. …only here to disrupt and divide.

    Seems to be unifying these days, FJ. Law of unintended consequences. By lumping people together as a common enemy, you get…a common enemy. Hitler missed that point, too.

  102. don’t know if anyone has been following this:

    Zimbabwe voters’ roll ‘in hands of suspect Israeli company’
    A secretive Israel-based firm – accused of manipulating past elections in
    the region – is alleged to be involved in managing Zimbabwe’s voters’
    roll…
    Eddie Cross, a Zimbabwean opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) MP
    who has proved to be well informed on security matters in the past, told the
    Mail & Guardian that he had been informed by security sources that the
    company, Nikuv International Projects, is working on the roll at Defence
    House, the headquarters of the Zimbabwe Defence Force. The MDC also alleged
    that Nikuv was a front for the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad, although
    it offered no evidence to support the claim…
    On its website Nikuv says that the company focuses on projects for
    “governmental sectors” and initiated its activities in Africa in 1994 in
    Nigeria. It had “since expanded its activities to Zimbabwe, Zambia, Ghana,
    Botswana and Angola in IT and additional areas like agriculture and
    security”….
    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-12-00-zim-voters-roll-in-hands-of-suspect-israeli-company

  103. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 2:01 pm

    Thanks Someone. Even those owning their homes or renting do not feel secure.

    1 in 4 in early fifties worried about losing home
    Richard Brooks \ Age UK
    Published on 30 July 2013

    Nearly a quarter of people in their early 50s are worried they’ll be forced to leave their homes because they won’t be able to keep up their mortgage or rent payments according to Age UK’s Economic Tracker.

    The figure from a poll of 971 people aged 50 or over across the UK is a barometer of the financial confidence of a demographic group, who would traditionally be expected to be at the peak of their earning power. Instead the tracker poll shows only 38% of people aged 50 plus say the future looks good for them.

    Age UK believes the results paint a worrying picture of a generation of ‘tomorrow’s pensioners’ beset with financial worries, including potentially finding themselves homeless.

    Concern over staying in work

    A key concern for many is keeping or finding a job. Nearly half of all unemployed men and women aged between 50 and 64 (46 per cent – 191,000 people ) have been out of work for more than a year with reducing prospects of finding a job despite being expected to work longer before they receive a State Pension.

    Research shows that it is harder for someone aged 50 and over to get back into the work place than for any other age group. Studies also show that they are more likely to be made redundant when compared with workers aged between 29 and 49.

    /..
    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/latest-news/1-in-4-in-early-fifties-worried-about-losing-home/

  104. Mary, I only respond to them when I’m in the mood. For my own entertainment really.
    Good point by Komodo.

    Look at this. It’s enough to make one throw up.

    “Mock The Poor — The Conservative Media Solution To Poverty”

    “As fast food workers in 7 cities walked the picket line fighting for better wages and working conditions the conservative media turned its focus towards a solution to help lift up our working men and women out of poverty — mock them.

    “To respond to the day long strike, Fox trotted out Richard Berman, failing to identify him as a highly paid consultant to the food and beverage industry. He proceeded to threaten fast food workers, claiming if they demanded incomes allowing them to live above the poverty line, the only solution would be to replace them with iPads.”

    More http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/07/30/mock-the-poor-the-conservative-media-solution-t/195125

  105. 13:00 GMT: “In a twist of irony, a US senator is lobbying for today to be declared ‘National Whistleblower Day’ in honor of the revolutionary-era Continentall Congress’ very first whistleblower protection law on July 30, 1778.

    “Anything we can do to uphold whistle-blowers and their protection is the right thing to keep government responsible,” Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley said on Monday. “If you know laws are being violated and money’s being misspent, you have a patriotic duty to report it.”

    http://rt.com/usa/manning-verdict-live-updates-770/

    Verdict 17:00 GMT

  106. Komodo, you are misunderstanding what the author is getting at. His analysis is of the psychology of modern leftism – it is not a discussion of what ought to constitute right or wrong in a society. Most of us – one would hope the vast majority of us – believe that war is wrong, helping the less fortunate is good, and so on. What the modern left does is to hijack these ideas and try to adopt them as its own, focuses its indignation selectively along political lines, and, believing it has established moral superiority, characterises dissenting views as cruel, inhumane, lacking compassion. Witness Dreoilin’s reply to me. She accuses me of wanting to “get rid of compassion”, because I dare challenge some of the phony compassion on display here (I say phony, because as has been noted it always follows selected political lines). Note, the fall-back is always on established norms – ie, compassion is a good thing, I am showing compassion, Anon challenges me, he therefore hates compassion. We see this time and again in the comments here. For example, anything not wholly critical of Israel is seen as supporting the murder of Palestinians. There is no middle-ground – you either conform to their twisted morality, or you do not, and are consequently an imperialist, racist, fascist, whatever. And I would add that this is why the modern left in general hates Christianity, because it sees the established moral code therein as a rival that must be adapted and distorted to fit leftist agendas.

  107. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 3:15 pm

    Poor brave young Bradley Manning. I feel so sorry for him. I think we all know that Judge Lind will take a pound of his flesh on behalf of the evil US EmPyre.

    Bradley Manning trial verdict – live coverage

    LiveJudge to rule on the case of Bradley Manning, accused of ‘aiding the enemy’ by leaking military secrets to WikiLeaks
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/30/bradley-manning-trial-verdict-live

  108. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 3:19 pm

    At firat I thought ‘What a horrible headline’. Then I read on :)

    http://www.politicsworldwide.com/why-is-there-so-little-anger-about-all-these-scroungers/

  109. “She accuses me of wanting to ‘get rid of compassion'”

    No, I said, “We must work to get rid of it.”

    [It’s called ‘sarcasm’.]

    As for ‘phony compassion’ and ‘twisted morality’, what I see coming from the right (particularly in the U.S. – which the élite in the UK is now so busy emulating) is NO compassion and NO moral compass, despite so many of them claiming to be Christians.

    You do talk tosh.

  110. Anon

    Where’s the list of different “brands” of compassion that you referred to and I asked you for?

    Can’t make it up?

  111. Anon, you are correct about the hijacking of issues on the basis of compassion, monopolising the moral high ground on those issues and falsely depicting opposing points of view as ‘morally bad’ because they are demonstrably less ‘compassionate’, as if ‘compassion’ is the primary or exclusive factor in the formulation of public policy and social responses to desperate problems.

    Compassion is defined as “sympathetic pity and concern for suffering of others”. I see no value in standing around and feeling sympathy for someone who is suffering while others rush to his aid. By itself, compassion is an emotional indulgence, not a solution to relieving humanity of its most pressing and agonising problems. Feeling compassion doesn’t make anyone superior – it is the motivation to act and succeed in helping that we can admire most.

    Australia is facing a Federal election soon and the politics of ‘compassion’ has raised its ugly head in the problem we are experiencing in managing and processing of aslyum seekers. Some people have been journeying by boat, usually from Indonesia, and over a thousand souls, many of them children, have been lost at sea due to overloading of unseaworthy boats.

    As a result, Australia has to send warships thousands of kilometres, sometimes into Indonesian waters, to mount sea-rescue missions because Indonesia, with its population of 300M, couldn’t give a shit about people drowning 5km off their coast. These missions cost millions of £££££ in a budget of *billions* to process unauthorised arrivals of so-called asylum seekers, money that would be better spent on fighting disease, hunger and peacekeeping in global black spots.

    There are a lot of lies being told about this issue with claims of inhumanity, lack of compassion, cruelty, and a host of demonising emotional terms being levelled at both the government and the opposition who have announced strong policies on managing a massive spike in unauthorised migration by sea. The Labor party played the ‘compassionate’ card in 2001 and the result was over a thousand people dead at sea.

    The Greens, who I have voted for at both the federal and state levels for the last eighteen years, has been leading this charge. What do they say about people dying at sea? It’s Australia’s fault. I will never vote for them again.

    Let me give some advice to anyone who wants to argue with someone who takes the moral high ground on an issue – don’t! You can’t win. The best solution to a problem is NOT the most compassionate one, but the most effective one. Ask how many are willing to open their homes to the homeless – not many, it turns out.

    No offence to the good people here who do the right thing, but let’s leave the word ‘compassion’ out of it. It’s not about you and your emotional needs, it’s about the needs of those who are suffering.

  112. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 3:59 pm

    Interesting that the House of Lords goes into recess today. The House of Commons pushed off for their hols on 18 July so why did the Lords continue meeting for another 8 days? For the £300 a day attendance allowance each member of the lords claimed presumably.

    http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/about-lords/lords-allowances/

    They have been waffling on today about the EU and are now discussing ‘Orders and Regulations’.

    http://services.parliament.uk/calendar/#!/calendar/Lords/MainChamber/2013/7/30/events.html

  113. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 4:02 pm

    @Anon. 2 44pm

    Can you link us to even one time a poster here has suggested, “…anything not wholly critical of Israel is seen as supporting the murder of Palestinians.”

    Thanks.

    That was quite a read.

  114. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 4:06 pm

    The mention of Papua New Guinea as the final destination for Australia’s /asylum seekers/illegal immigrants, as recently decided by Rudd, is omitted above.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/election-2013/island-locked-and-loaded-for-first-png-flight/story-fn9qr68y-1226688380868

  115. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 4:22 pm

    @Jemand. 3 56pm

    Lets do a simple exercise.

    Take two groups of randomly chosen people.

    Drop them onto two identical islands, both of which contain all the tools and resources to meet human needs.

    Group A are required to respond to each other with compassion 75% of the time.

    Group B are required to respond with compassion 25% of the time.

    Leave them for a year, then return. But on the way you are required to place bets on which group is in better condition.

    If you were a gambler, which group would you put your money on?

    Isn’t compassion/empathy a vital survival trait for us at this stage, now we have so much more power than ever to screw things up on a scale never imagined before?

  116. Flaming June/Mary is again lying as an unstoppable, compulsive liar about my country.

    The PNG solution was not specifically mentioned by me because it did not have to be mentioned. I referred to “strong policies” and that implied everything that has been reported in the media.

    But as expected, she fails to express even a scintilla of compassion for the children who breathed water into their lungs as their short lives were extinguished at sea. You see, it is more important for her to be seen parading her bleeding heart than caring about the real causes of tragedy. And it seems she thinks it’s better to drown at sea than be offered a safe haven in PNG (as if Australia OWES the world a place in our land).

  117. Sofia KN,

    I don’t bet on anything other than a sure thing.

    Let me ask you this –

    Who would you bet on if Group A expressed compassion 100% of the time and Group B only 75% of the time?

    Does this hypothetical exercise, absent of any real evidence, prove anything?

  118. His analysis is of the psychology of modern leftism

    He’s a mathematician ffs. His analysis is of his own thoughts and feelings. And they’re confused.

    You’ve missed my point, too. Or you’re saying it’s ok to adopt the prevailing morals but not to say or do anything about them, for that will earn you the lofty censure of the excrescences?

    Anyway, off to the buzkashi game. I have a bet on the Taliban Turtles.

  119. “80 percent of U.S. adults face near-poverty, unemployment, survey finds”

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57595861/80-percent-of-u.s-adults-face-near-poverty-unemployment-survey-finds/

  120. Has anyone provided accomodation to a poor homeless person yet?

    *sounds of owls hooting*

  121. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 4:45 pm

    @Flaming. 3 19pm

    Call me a bleeding-heart, but it I can’t help getting all emotional when I hear a journalist attacking scroungers like “… the pregnant young woman, who has been unemployed for months, receiving hundreds of millions of pounds in state hand-outs on top being allowed to live rent free in a 20 bedroom house, which was re-furbished by the taxpayer at a cost of £1M.”

    Thanks. I needed a laugh after those “torrents of cack.”

  122. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 4:56 pm

    A compassionate take on Manning….no cack or chung.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/who-is-bradley-manning

  123. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 5:20 pm

    I had the same irrational and hostile reaction from Jemand when I dared to mention the abominable treatment of the aboriginal people by the Australians, quoting John Pilger whom I take to be a most reliable source.

    Watch The Rabbit Proof Fence and Samson and Delilah and be moved. Also read this.

    July 22, 2013

    The PNG Solution

    Harshness Before Sense
    by BINOY KAMPMARK

    This is patently sinister. Manus Island, in Papua New Guinea, is destined under the “regional agreement” between PNG and Australia to become an expanded detention centre which may house upwards of 3000 individuals. (Shades of an Asia Pacific Gulag Archipelago come to mind.) These individuals might well have been processed quietly through Australian channels by Australian authorities. If it had been news, it should have been embedded in the back pages. But this Labor government is desperate. Very desperate. So much so that anyone without a visa who arrives in Australia will never (emphasis on the word never) settle in Australia.[1]

    Those are the words of a “restored” Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Rudd has made it clear that the Refugee Convention, ratified in 1951 is an anachronism on stilts. Nothing new there – he parrots a long standing lament of wealthy states who would rather wish the convention might be done away with – or at the very least “revised”.

    Much of this behaviour on the part of the prime minister is probably histrionics – to change the convention through the channels of the United Nations would require General Assembly approval. Poorer states are unlikely to be joining richer states in attempting to curb global flows of individuals – for them, the richer the state, the greater the burden by necessity.

    [..]
    As Marina O’Sullivan of the Castan Centre for Human Rights explains, domestic violence is rife.[3] Ethnic tensions are ever present. The “human rights” infrastructure is simply not in place. Then there is that matter of the High Court, which found in 2011 that arrangements of this sort violated international refugee obligations.

    Should he win the elections, will Rudd care? This is hard to know given the distinct hollowness of Australian politics. Australia is a land jam packed with regulations, controls and a mania for “security”. Its electoral system, at least in so far as it determines the fates of governments, hinges on marginal seats in the outer suburbs – the “Rooty Hill” factor. But this policy, unless it is challenged in the High Court, risks making Australia not merely an inept international citizen, but a callous one whose words at international law are empty sentiments rather than genuine policy.

    Binoy Kampmark was a Commonwealth Scholar at Selwyn College, Cambridge. He lectures at RMIT University, Melbourne

    /..
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/22/harshness-before-sense/

  124. “I see no value in standing around and feeling sympathy for someone who is suffering while others rush to his aid.”

    No, Jemand. But this is a blog, there is no CCTV to see what people are doing (when they’re not writing here), and no access to people’s bank details to see what they might be donating to good causes.

    All we can see is when people express sympathy with the plight of others.

    What I’d like to ask you is,

    Do those who rush to the aid of others feel no compassion?
    Or do they rush to others’ aid because they feel compassion?

    Why does it have to be either feel compassion OR go and help people? why not both?

    —————-

    Sofia
    about
    “… the pregnant young woman, who has been unemployed for months, receiving hundreds of millions of pounds in state hand-outs on top being allowed to live rent free in a 20 bedroom house, which was re-furbished by the taxpayer at a cost of £1M.”

    https://twitter.com/irlpol/status/362174194663952384/photo/1

  125. Anon writes, “Most of us – one would hope the vast majority of us – believe that war is wrong, helping the less fortunate is good, and so on.

    Sometimes, not always by any means. The majority of Americans believed war with Iraq was right, despite Iraq having never done us any harm. The majority of our representatives in the UK thought war was right too. In fact, there’s rarely a war the right wing _doesn’t_ like – as long as they’re not personally involved, of course. Most people in the UK have welcomed the majority of wars we’ve fought in the last 100 years. But most Americans cheerfully endorse the US attacking of a tiny, unarmed country too, wherever it occurs, even though they’ve never heard of it before and couldn’t find it on a map.

    Helping the fortunate is not seen as a good thing by the right either. Oh, they’ll make weasly arguments about dependency cultures, etc., but will oppose every last thing that assists the working man. Indeed, “cheap labour” is at least a major component of every policy the right puts forward. “Welfare queens”, “scroungers” and so on our very popular whipping boys. Haven’t you noticed?

    So while your premise might sound good as a lazy assertion, it doesn’t really stand a popularity test when you get to any specifics.

    Anon continues: “What the modern left does is to hijack these ideas and try to adopt them as its own, focuses its indignation selectively along political lines, and, believing it has established moral superiority, characterises dissenting views as cruel, inhumane, lacking compassion.

    What is there to “hijack”, if you think they are majority views anyway? Why should what you’d have as a majority view on compassion suddenly become “phony” when exhibited by the left?

    That’s what makes lefties unpopular – going against warmongering, and opposing the demonising of the poor – which is hardly hijacking a notion for popularity.

    Your view is actually rather comical, in a sad way. You’re proposing that a majority view is only voiced by the Left, yet they’re the one group that doesn’t believe in it! That’s right – the Left puts their entire concerns on only for show, while the Right that _does_ believe in these fair-minded principles holds policies that work in the opposite direction. Your logic/view is so convoluted that only a madman could have threaded such a twisted mess and called it a reasoned argument. Oh yes… it was inspired by Kaczynski, no wonder!

    *

    You have so much pent-up distortion and – frankly – anger pent up in your 2:44pm post it’s too much to unpack without going overly long here. For instance, Christianity is seen as a rival for a moral code, therefore its attacked because we lefties can’t stand the competition! That’s great, it’s so daft I just have to chuckle.

    For a start, any genuine practitioner of a moral code will be incorporated and welcomed by the Left – not attacked. If you think the real Christianists (not just your harmless CoE types) have any relationship to the teachings of Christ, let alone morality, you are seriously misinformed. If you think the implementation of Christianity (or religion generally) through the centuries has done us any good, you are also badly mistaken.

  126. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 5:48 pm

    Frack off Lord Howell (Gideon’s father-in-law)! The ConDem equivalent of Marie Antoinette.

    George Osborne’s father-in-law has declared fracking should happen in the North East of England because it is filled with “desolate areas”.

    Lord Howell of Guildford, whose daughter Frances is married to the Chancellor, drew gasps of astonishment with his comments in the House of Lords on Tuesday.

    He claimed the controversial form of gas production could take place in the North East without any impact on the surrounding environment.

    Environmental campaigners called the declaration “jaw-dropping” and Labour claimed it was further proof that the Tories are “out of touch” with ordinary Britons.

    The Tory peer, who was energy secretary under Margaret Thatcher, argued that the same approach on fracking should not be taken in all regions.
    /..
    http://news.sky.com/story/1122219/lord-howell-frack-in-desolate-north-east

    http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/lords/lord-howell-of-guildford/993

    PS He has since apologised for any offence caused!

  127. Oh well said, Glenn.

  128. Typo: I’d put “Helping the fortunate is not seen as a good thing by the right either” above. Meant to say “… helping the UNfortunate”, obviously. I don’t usually respond to my own typos – usually it’s obvious what was meant, but that one did require clarification.

    Because the Right actually thinks helping the already fortunate _is_ their job, with “fortune” being the operative component of the word, by funnelling tax-payer money at their investor-class cronies, and relieving them of their tax duties. All the while, the Right denounces the poor for taking so much from the hard-working rich, increases the tax burden on the poor, and works to deny them as many state benefits as possible.

  129. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 5:56 pm

    @ Ben. 4 56pm

    Thanks. It gives a good idea of the person behind the name.

    @Dreoilin.

    “WOMAN HAS BABY

    LOL!

  130. Still no expression of sympathy from Flaming Mary for the children who died at sea.

    @Dreoilin, the compassion competition on this blog serves no useful purpose but to arbitrarily divide those who think they care the most from those who think they know the best.

    My statement re standing around wasn’t a metaphor for all of us on this blog. It was literal – ie people who stand around in the street saying “Ooh, that’s terrible, my how sad” while others rush over to help. Do those who rush to offer aid feel more compassion? I don’t know. Does it matter what they feel as long as they help? As we sometimes say, “actions speak louder than words”, or “words are cheap”. Perhaps actions are all that count in measuring compassion, so all this blustering over who expresses more compassion than who is utterly pointless.

    It’s possible, Dreoilin, that some of the world’s best doctors are psychopaths. I don’t know this to be true, but I can imagine a selfish doctor who is determined to win accolades for his great work in saving lives might not care any more than you, me or the self-professed bleeding hearts of humanity on this blog. But again, it’s not about unfalsifiable claims of feeling compassion that’s important, it’s the awareness of suffering and the development of workable solutions. You can’t run a hospital full of crying nurses.

  131. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:06 pm

    Glenn; so true. Right-wingers wince with obvious pain if you should mention the concept, noblesse oblige. Denial is a powerful substitute for compassion.

  132. Found not guilty of aiding the enemy!!!
    Thank goodness

  133. Sofia KN,

    Still waiting for a reply re your bet.

  134. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:12 pm

    “If you think the implementation of Christianity (or religion generally) through the centuries has done us any good, you are also badly mistaken.”

    It’s more a failure to implement the principles of Christianity, which has made it appear a failure glenn

    The Founder’s biggest challenge was not the streetwalkers and Publicans of his day, but the religious hypocrites who didn’t want to get the message because it was inconvenient.

    There are lots of ‘Cafeteria’ christians who choose a schism based upon their predispositions. That’s not the way it’s supposed to work.

  135. Thanks Dreoilin…. I haven’t been paying so much attention lately, I admit, but Anon (who he?) seems to have gone off the deep end today. Quoting a bit of Ted Kaczynski and arguing that he had a point here or there is one thing, but here Anon seems to be challenging us with Kaczynski’s words as if they were received wisdom!

    If that were not bad enough, Anon now decides to make sweeping generalisations and assumptions about the Left that would make Thatcher blush (if she wasn’t red-faced enough already contending with the fires of hell), and builds a teetering column of baseless assertions to arrive at a completely insane conclusion. No wonder these people eventually start lobbing bombs about if they’re capable of that sort of reasoning.

  136. @Dreoilin, thanks for the news re Manning. I wasn’t expecting it but then, this case was more about getting a relationship between Manning and Assange+Wikileaks on the formal legal record for subsequent action against Assange – the real target.

  137. Thanks for all the great links and opinions, I feel humbled. Have been painting non stop for about a week, feels like Ramsgate all over again.

    In preparation for another night around the fire of facts, anguish and distortion, can I offer you all an instant sleeping pill for the early hours of the morn.
    I do not need it anymore as hard physical work works better for me.

    So you get ready, rest your wary head and play this. 1min 27 second of it should do.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgY_XWPhxos

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgY_XWPhxos

  138. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:15 pm

    A lot of Journos just got a reprieve.

  139. Glenn_uk

    If you want an example of deep end flipping out, visit the counter-revolution thread and read Fedup’s posts.

  140. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:20 pm

    Guardian;

    What we know
    Information is still filtering out of Fort Meade – we will have a full report from Ed Pilkington shortly – but for the moment, this is what we know:

    • Bradley Manning has been found not guilty of aiding the enemy

    • Manning has been found guilty of five espionage charges

    • He has been found guilty of five theft charges

  141. Jemand,
    I was not aware of any “compassion competition” on this blog.

    All I see are those who express compassion — and those who call that compassion ‘phony’ with references to ‘twisted morality’. It’s very offensive, actually.

    “thanks for the news re Manning”

    Yes, I assumed they’d throw the book at him and give him a life sentence. But I don’t think so now.
    He’s been found guilty of about 15 or so charges to which he had pleaded guilty. I haven’t heard anything about a sentence yet, but I’ve heard 20 years **mentioned**.

  142. Ah Ben, you can keep us informed!

  143. Sentencing to begin tomorrow, according to Sky. That concur with what you’re hearing Ben?

  144. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:25 pm

    @Glenn. 5 44 and 5 53pm

    I can understand privileged right-wing parasites thinking their entitlement to our taxes is a good thing.

    What baffles me is the “clever” apologists and the obviously willing crowds who line the streets to wave plastic flags (made in China) and, when they can, give their votes to privileged right-wing parasites.

  145. Tweet from Wikileaks

    Manning faces 136 years on the charges he has been convicted of today. Dangerous national security extremism from the Obama administration.

    (I’ll shut up now)

  146. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:33 pm

    Yes Dreoilin.

    Ed Pilkington ✔ @Edpilkington

    BREAKING #Manning facing poss top sentence of at least 130 years in military jail #WikiLeaks
    10:18 AM – 30 Jul 2013

    But the judge says she’s gonna give him credit for time tortured, er served.

  147. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 6:44 pm

    Alexa O’Brien @carwinb

    Spec II, Charge II Guilty to his LIO plea for 793(e) Collateral Murder #Manning

    I attempted to find the charge in UCMJ, but nothing augers well. I assume this is the extra jail time for the CM video. This was the most damaging revelation from the perspective of the authorities.

  148. Flaming June, 5.20pm

    I’ve just read this article from yesterday on the imminent Bradley Manning by Binoy Kampmark (who is the No 3 in the Wikileaks Party Victoria Senate election team):

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/07/29/the-manning-trial-rests/

    On the verdict itself, of course everyone’s relieved about the Aiding the Enemy and Garani video charges (the two big lead-ins for the Grand Jury indictment of Assange/7 founders and associates of Wikileaks) but Alexa O’Brien sums it up as she tweets after outlining the other 19 convictions adding up to a potential 136 years’ jailtime:

    Alexa O’Brien
    @carwinb

    I am going back into the funeral of a young man. #Manning

    https://twitter.com/carwinb/status/362263029141876737

  149. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:05 pm

    It is a type of funeral. How else can we calculate the sacrifices of young men like Manning and Snowden. Their autonomous lives have been relinquisshed, just like a soldier who falls on a grenade to spare others.

  150. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:08 pm

    The Family’s statement;

    “While we are obviously disappointed in today’s verdicts, we are happy that Judge Lind agreed with us that Brad never intended to help America’s enemies in any way. Brad loves his country and was proud to wear its uniform.

    We want to express our deep thanks to David Coombs, who has dedicated three years of his life to serving as lead counsel in Brad’s case. We also want to thank Brad’s Army defense team, Major Thomas Hurley and Captain Joshua Tooman, for their tireless efforts on Brad’s behalf, and Brad’s first defense counsel, Captain Paul Bouchard, who was so helpful to all of us in those early confusing days and first suggested David Coombs as Brad’s counsel. Most of all, we would like to thank the thousands of people who rallied to Brad’s cause, providing financial and emotional support throughout this long and difficult time, especially Jeff Paterson and Courage to Resist and the Bradley Manning Support Network. Their support has allowed a young Army private to defend himself against the full might of not only the US Army but also the US Government.”

  151. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:18 pm

    @ Komodo

    “I don’t hate my country, and I don’t hate the West.”

    _____________________

    You are a bare-faced liar.

    You also hate Israel, and I’d say – judging by your latest frenzied series of posts – that you hate the good people who make you aware of your hatred.

    **************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  152. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:20 pm

    Must’ve hit a raw nerve.

  153. Re Manning verdict.

    Charge of “Aiding the enemy” was problematic vis-a-vis the constitution and supposed freedom of the press provisions. It was best for the Whitehouse to drop it.

    Sentencing will require imprisonment severe enough to make other would-be whistleblowers rethink any idea of doing likewise but not so severe that it feeds anti-US propaganda. I think the Whitehouse got burnt by this case and want to see it behind them. How it affects Snowden, I’m not sure. Ten to twenty years is my guess with maybe a generous parole term, maybe a reduction in sentence on appeal.

    In relation to Assange & Co. I’ll be interested to know how some of the findings will feed into the process of formulating charges by the DoJ, if they don’t already have a sealed indictment.

  154. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:26 pm

    @ Jemand

    “Anon, was that quote from before or after Kacynski having lost his mind? Because it makes perfect sense to me.”
    _________

    Thank you for that quotation, which makes perfect sense to me too.

    As to whether he said it before or losing his mind : even if he said it after losing his mind, it still sounds saner than most of the ravings coming from the keyboards of the Hate Brigade of Eminences :)

  155. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:28 pm

    Amnesty Int’l statement. They got this one right.

    https://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=20904

  156. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:31 pm

    “Margaret Thatcher’s funeral cost taxpayers more than £3m
    Cabinet Office confirms policing and security costs for former prime minister’s funeral in April” (from the Frequent Poster, now)

    Back at the time, the F.P. was busily quoting msm which talked about £10 million.

    Then, very recently, she quoted a source which talked about £1,2 million.

    And now she’s quoting £3 million.

    Tomorrrow….?

    ******************

    La vita é bella, life is good!

  157. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:41 pm

    @ Mr Scorgie:

    “If you want to talk about Pakistan; Russia; India; China; Cuba etc fair enough but the subject at the moment is human rights abuses by the west mostly the US and Israel.”
    _______________

    And that, I think, sums it up in a nutshell : “the subject at the moment”.

    As decreed by Komodo, Flaming June and most of the other Eminences, not forgetting your good self of course.

    So you are not really interested in human rights abuses as such, you are simply interested in human rights abuses (which certainly exist) committed by the West and Israel.

    Thank you for coming clean about that.

    *******************

    La vita è bella, life is good! (combat selectivity, laziness and hypocrisy)

  158. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:43 pm

    Will Amnesty International and HRW now designate Bradley Manning a prisoner of conscience? They have failed miserably so far.

    HRW: “Who is Bradley Manning?”
    Posted on June 7, 2013 by youreallbowlsofsoup

    On Wednesday June 5, 2013, Amnesty4Manning asked supporters of Pfc. Bradley Manning to participate in CALLS FOR MANNING- a day to pick up the phone and call local Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch branches. The objective was to gather information on how the two largest human rights organizations assess human rights violations, Manning support, and why he has not been recognized as a political prisoner or prisoner of conscience.

    Several participates reported to the Twitter account @Amnesty4Manning that Amnesty International representatives would ask for their name and email address promising to get back to them at a later time. Many callers were referred to the press release Amnesty issued the first day of Manning’s court martial. Some told @Amnesty4Manning that their calls went unanswered or straight to voice mail.

    The following is the account of a Manning supporter who phoned US branches of Human Rights Watch:
    /..

    http://amnesty4manning.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/hrw-who-is-bradley-manning/

  159. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:47 pm

    The LGBT’s have failed to support Manning sufficiently, as well. I think his small stature and boyish looks don’t make for a good PR face.

  160. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:48 pm

    @Hasbarakuk. 7 18pm

    Dad!

    Re the Evil Lizard:

    “You are a bare-faced liar.”

    You also hate Israel, and I’d say – judging by your latest frenzied series of posts – that you hate the good people who make you aware of your hatred.”

    When you put it like that, how could any sane person would not be persuaded?

    Now I understand what the University of Haifa means by “public diplomacy”.

    Awesome!
    .
    .

    BTW what’s your take on the Bradley Manning verdict?

  161. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:50 pm

    OK. Forget the “would”.

    …how could any sane person would not be persuaded?

    You de man Dad!

  162. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:54 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    “Clearly Anon believes that compassion is a bad thing. We must work to get rid of it.”
    _______________

    Come on, although I disagree with much of what you say, you strike me a fair-minded person. I don’t think Anon believes that but I do think he believes that compassion is not – how can I put this politely? – a certain element in Flaming June’s, or Komodo’s, or X’s character. And I agree with that belief.

    (And for what it’s worth, clipping one wing of caged birds is horrible).

  163. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:55 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    I should have written “..a CENTRAL element..”. Sorry.

  164. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 7:57 pm

    On this day in 1778….

    “The law passed by the Continental Congress on July 30, 1778, declared that it was the “duty of all persons in the service of the United States, as well as all other the inhabitants thereof, to give the earliest information to Congress or other proper authority of any misconduct, frauds or misdemeanors committed by an officers or persons in the service of these states, which may come to their knowledge.”

    It was passed unanimously in response to a whistleblower, Marine Captain John Grannis, who presented a petition to the Continental Congress on March 26, 1777, to have a commander of the Continental Navy, Commodore Esek Hopkins, suspended after he tortured British sailors who were captured.”

  165. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:04 pm

    @Hasbarakuk.

    Dad!

    The afternoon’s “torrent of cack” receeds down the plug-hole of blog history, seamlessly replaced by “an endless stream of drivel”.

    “…you are simply interested in human rights abuses (which certainly exist) committed by the West and Israel.
    Thank you for coming clean about that.”

    Sorry, I didn’t quite get the logic to that one. Can you explain in short words and give some proper examples to illustrate?

    Does Hiafa Uni teach you to be immune from embarrassment?

  166. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:05 pm

    The Busted Flush wears on, and on.

  167. Jemand, 7.21pm

    In relation to Assange & Co. I’ll be interested to know how some of the findings will feed into the process of formulating charges by the DoJ, if they don’t already have a sealed indictment.

    My guess: The Garani video as link for direct conspiracy charges against Wikileaks in this Manning trial was always a long shot; the evidence simply wasn’t there (didn’t stop them trying, though). Now they’ll just use the Jason Katz version for the Grand Jury indictment instead. Re the Aiding the Enemy charge – well, you only had to listen to how many times Major Fein spat the words “Assange” and “Wikileaks” in his closing arguments to know what the game was there. But they were hampered by the fact that Manning got out in his plea statement that he’d approached the Washington Post and New York Times first before heading to Wikileaks, and they were forced to admit the charge would apply equally to the Washington press corps if they’d been the ones who carried Manning’s leaks when Judge Lind queried it. I think the First Amendment implications and the fact that Aiding the Enemy applies to “anyone”, not just military personnel, therefore forced her Not Guilty verdict there. Kinda curious as to her reasoning for the Garani video, though – given she must be aware how much the US Govt wanted that one for the Assange Grand Jury case. It’s not like she hasn’t waved through plenty of convictions here for which the prosecution didn’t really offer sufficient evidence too.

    It’s via the Espionage convictions, and follow-through conspiracy charges against Assange that he is genuinely exposed to the death penalty. I think it’s under section 793(d), IIRC. Here, latest Congressional Research Service report on Criminal Prohibitions on the Publication of Classified Defense Information, from January 2013:

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/R41404.pdf

    Stratfor’s theory on how this could be done was to get the extradition done on criminal computer charges (for example, the CFAA) then declassify the death of an intelligence asset, somehow link that death to Wikileaks’ publications, and add to the charge sheet. The 793(d) becomes a death penalty offence if publication leads to the death of US HUMINT assets.

    This explains why all those top pollies kept screaming the words “blood on their hands” over and over back when the Wikileaks releases were coming out, and why David Leigh’s excretable libel “he said ‘they’re informants, they deserve to die'” was so venal, reckless and dangerous. Bear those two quotes – Stratfor’s and Leigh’s – in mind as you read that section in the Congressional report and you’ll see what I mean.

  168. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:19 pm

    ” But they were hampered by the fact that Manning got out in his plea statement that he’d approached the Washington Post and New York Times first before heading to Wikileaks, and they were forced to admit the charge would apply equally to the Washington press corps if they’d been the ones who carried Manning’s leaks when Judge Lind queried it.”

    Yes Arbed. I suspect this was staged to have such an outcome. Obama has publicly stated that we need a watchdog press, but I think he regards only major outlets which are loathe to lose their precious access to government sources, as true members of the Media. Congress is supposedly working on a Shield Law to provide some solace to the lapdogs.

  169. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:29 pm

    per my last comment.


    James Ball, the Guardian’s data editor, writes that “the Obama administration didn’t merely go through the motions” in pursuit of Bradley Manning; military authorities “imposed a charge that should have sparked far greater alarm than it did”.

    They argued that by talking to the media, Manning had “aided the enemy” – a charge tantamount to treason, which can carry the death penalty (though this was not pursued in Manning’s case).

    This is not so much the beginning of a slippery slope for a democratic nation as a headlong plummet. A guilty verdict would have redefined the media – from outlets such as WikiLeaks to bastions of the establishment like the New York Times – as proxies for the enemy. It would have ended any distinction between a traitor selling military secrets to the highest bidder and someone speaking to a journalist on a matter of conscience and for no reward.

    By finding Manning not guilty on this dangerous charge (though guilty of espionage and theft), military judge colonel Denise Lind has pulled the US back from the precipice – for now. But that outcome does not alter the fact that such a charge was sought by prosecutors in the first place.”

  170. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:31 pm

    @Ben. 7 57pm

    Re the “duty of all persons in the service of the United States, as well as all other the inhabitants thereof, to give the earliest information to Congress or other proper authority of any misconduct, frauds or misdemeanors committed by an officers or persons in the service of these states, which may come to their knowledge.”

    I don’t mean to cause offence, but where I come from we assume that (stereotypical) Americans don’t do irony.

    How very wrong we are!

  171. I think we can all agree that human rights are for the victims of Western, or Western-aligned, aggression. Everyone else can go stew because the injustice you are suffering does not fit in with the Murrayistas’ anti-West narrative. Bare-faced liars and hypocrites, the lot of you.

  172. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:34 pm

    @ Jemand :

    “You see, it is more important for her to be seen parading her bleeding heart than caring about the real causes of tragedy.”
    _____________

    Obviously, Jemand, because caring about the real causes of tragedy (in the case of refugees from Indonesia, that one-time leader of the “non-aligned world”, the abuse of human and economic rights by the govt of Indonesia) might – oh, horror! – lead her to having to criticise a non-Western govt. And that would never do, would it.

    You and Anon have really got the hypocrites and Eminent Selectivists on the run this time, keep it up!

  173. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:35 pm

    Sofia; Add to that, a knowledge of History. Irony is just a rusting metallic substance and denial is a river in Egypt.

  174. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:41 pm

    It may of course be mere fancy on my part, but is there not just a slight, sour smell of disappointment in the posts from the Eminences that Mr Manning has NOT been found guilty of aiding the enemy?

    I expect the the same smell will become evident should Mr Manning gets less than the 120 years or whatever that have been thrown around on this blog in the last few hours.

    *******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  175. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:43 pm

    That’s your only contribution to the issue of Manning? What sentence would your sense of justice demand?

  176. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:47 pm

    WIKILEAKS CASE:Website founder Julian Assange condemns verdict, describing Bradley Manning as a ‘hero’

  177. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:50 pm

    Reporters without borders have issued a statement on the Manning verdict:

    The information that Manning allegedly passed to WikiLeaks – used by newspapers such as The New York Times, The Guardian, Der Spiegel and Le Monde in coordination with Julian Assange’s website – included revelations of grave abuses in the ‘war on terror’ launched by the Bush administration.

    The ‘collateral’ fatal shooting of Reuters employees by a US Army helicopter in Baghdad in July 2007 is a well-known example. Should this reality have been concealed from the U.S. public and international opinion? Which was more serious – committing such crimes or revealing them to the public?

    The conditions in which Manning has been held, his unfair trial and the lack of transparency during the hearings speak volumes about the fate reserved for whistle-blowers and the way the rule of law is being flouted. Edward Snowden would have every reason to fear persecution, as defined by the Geneva Conventions, if he were to return to the United States.

  178. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 8:51 pm

  179. “It may of course be mere fancy on my part, but is there not just a slight, sour smell of disappointment in the posts from the Eminences that Mr Manning has NOT been found guilty of aiding the enemy?”

    Exactly my thoughts, Habbabkuk. There is certainly a tangible sense of disappointment over on RT, where they were were clearly hoping for Manning to be bound and gagged and sent to the gas chamber. One has to have one’s prejudices confirmed!

  180. Flaming June

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:10 pm

    No crime is too large or too small for the crooked bankers to commit. Remember B.Liar has a financial connection to J P Morgan.

    JP Morgan pays $410m to settle US energy case
    JP Morgan chief executive Jamie Dimon has been trying to improve the image of the bank

    Related Stories
    JP Morgan to advise on bank sale
    JP Morgan boss wins shareholder vote
    JP Morgan makes record profit

    JP MorganChase’s energy unit has agreed to pay $410m (£268m) to settle charges from the top US energy regulator that it manipulated energy markets.

    The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) agency alleged JPMorgan’s trading practices drove up prices for electricity, mainly in California and the Midwest.

    The fine is the second largest penalty in FERC history.

    /..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23506803#

  181. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:10 pm

    Media not out of the woods. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/30/bradley-manning-verdict-bad-news-for-journalists

    “The Manning verdict had plenty of bad news for the press. By finding Manning guilty of five counts of espionage, the judge endorsed the government’s other radical theories, and left the journalism organization that initially passed along the leaks to the public, Wikileaks, no less vulnerable than it had been before the case started. Anyone who thinks Julian Assange isn’t still a target of the US Government hasn’t been paying attention; if the US can pry him loose from Ecuador’s embassy in London and extradite him, you can be certain that he’ll face charges, too, and the Manning verdict will be vital to that case.

    The military tried its best to make life difficult for journalists covering the Manning trial, but activists – not traditional journalists – were the ones who fought restrictions most successfully. Transcripts weren’t provided by the government, for example. Only when the Freedom of the Press Foundation crowd-sourced a court stenographer did the public get a record, however flawed, of what was happening.

    That public included most of the press, sad to say. Only a few American news organizations (one is the Guardian’s US edition) bothered to staff the Manning trial in any serious way. Independent journalists did most of the work, and did it as well as it could be done under the circumstances.”

  182. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:12 pm

    ‘exactly my thoughts’

    The tag-team high-fives. TV wrestling is fake too.

  183. “but is there not just a slight, sour smell of disappointment in the posts from the Eminences that Mr Manning has NOT been found guilty of aiding the enemy?”

    Póg mo thóin, Habbabkuk. You’re as thick as manure but not half as useful. Take your feckin ‘sour smells’ elsewhere. And take Anon with you.
    Just because you dissemble here doesn’t mean everyone else does too.

  184. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:16 pm

    @ Ben Franklin (20h43)

    “That’s your only contribution to the issue of Manning?”
    ___________________

    Just trying to adjust my level of debate (almost but not quite) down to yours, my Sage friend.

    Example :

    “Must’ve hit a raw nerve.” (your contribution to my post on Komodo’s previous outburst of hysterics)

    ******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  185. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:20 pm

    So, you have nothing to add. ‘Natch!

  186. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:20 pm

    @ Dreoilin

    It’s gratifying to see that Mary’s couple of hurt remarks some while back have had the effect of bringing you firmly back on side.

    I have to hand it to Mary, she’s got you lot sussed out :)

  187. Anon – “Exactly my thoughts, Habbabkuk. There is certainly a tangible sense of disappointment over on RT, where they were were clearly hoping for Manning to be bound and gagged and sent to the gas chamber”

    Classic DIY tag team instructions from the manual written in herzliya !! Why even 911er ehud borg would be proud !

  188. What did Manning actually achieve other than dumping a load of classified government material online? The “Collateral Damage” video was indeed shocking, but it had already been reported on. And what has Wikileaks actually achieved, other than monumental amounts of self-publicity? In every country, what Manning did would be deemed a seditious act and dealt with accordingly, and, in most cases, much more severely. I have much more admiration for Snowden, who revealed something worth knowing. That said, Snowden’s big mistake was in ‘revealing’ US spying on foreign governments. He should have stuck with PRISM, and by doing so would have avoided accusations of treachery.

  189. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:31 pm

    @ Ben

    And what are you adding to the debate, other than covering up your disappointment with the verdict by spewing out garbage every 20 minutes or so (20h19, 20h29, 20h50, 21h10…) designed to put the US in the worst possible light again?

    ******************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  190. Sofia Kibo Noh

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:36 pm

    @Dad! and Team

    Póg mine too while you’re about it, the lot of you.

    Then go and do something useful with your lives.

    You are bloody useless at disrupting this blog.

    All you do is demonstrate the bankruptcy of the misery-dealing elite agendas that you peddle.

    Why can’t we have a half fit-for purpose bunch of trolls?

  191. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:37 pm

    “And what are you adding to the debate, other than covering up your disappointment with the verdict by spewing out garbage every 20 minutes or so (20h19, 20h29, 20h50, 21h10…) designed to put the US in the worst possible light again?”

    Praise from Caesar.

  192. LOL @ Sofia

  193. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    Still on the theme of disappointment, sour smell thereof:

    Just suppose, for a moment, that there were to be a just and fair outcome to the forthcoming Israel – Palestine talks.

    What on earth would the Eminences do?

    Well, of course, they would – using their superior knowledge – say that the outcome is not really just and fair at all.

    And then, a second thought. Supposing – oh, horror of horrors! – the Palestinians and the Israelis endorsed the outcome in their referendums!

    What then?

    I predict one of two outcomes :

    – the Eminences would commit group suicide

    or

    – they would finally have to start blogging on injustices and violations of human rights elsewhere (Russia, China, Africa, South America, the Indian sub-continent….).

    It’s a terrible thought and I’m beginning to wish I hadn’t thought of it at all.

    **********************

    La vita è bella, life is good!

  194. Honestly if sewage satanyahu were to turn up again at the UN Podium with the kind of see through yarmulkers this two man tag team are wearing, he may be laughed out of the Plenary session just like madoffs wife was in Judge Chins court with her “I am having to pay for his security out of my own money” !! More worryingly such shameless yiddery is a sign the millennial blowback must be near, and with it vast collateral damage.

  195. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 9:57 pm

    Habbacack is quite upset at my lack of Nationalistic pride as though that’s a defining measure for members of the human race. A love of one’s country is a terrible thing. It’s a Patriot Game for fools and scoundrels who have little else in their bag for humanity and themselves

  196. Ben Franklin, 8.29pm

    Is this the article by James Ball you’re talking about?

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/30/bradley-manning-trial-enemy-not-guilty

    Hmmm. Presumably this article is James Ball’s attempt to appear to have been a supporter of Bradley Manning all along.

    Oh, the hypocrisy.

    I thought this bit was particularly piquant:

    By finding Manning not guilty on this dangerous charge (though guilty of espionage and theft),

    Which conveniently leaves out the fact that it was James Ball’s own spiteful “accidental” leaking of the Wikileaks Non-Disclosure Agreement he did/did not sign (delete depending on which version of the story/confession of Ball’s you believe) on Twitter, which the US government used as evidence of the “value” of all those theft charges against Bradley Manning they’ve just convicted him on.

    The maths: That’s a potential 45 years out of those 136 to which James Ball has made such a “supportive” contribution.

    More details here:

    http://wikileaks.org/IMG/html/gibney-transcript.html#4004

  197. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Jul, 2013 - 10:39 pm

    I think it was a tweet on the live thread (Guardian) but I didn’t know he apparently displeased someone, Arbed Murky circumstances around the ‘signing’ and intent. If he’s a burrowing worm, he hasn’t turned yet AFAICT. His work shows fairly consistent support, but I’m not reading between the lines yet.

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