North Korea – Trident A Complete Irrelevance in a Genuine Nuclear Standoff 75


The situation developing on the Korean Peninsula is close to the fulfilment of the nightmare scenario. A genuinely crazed regime, controlling a serf population, is on the verge of acquiring viable weapons of mass destruction.

It must be stressed that North Korea is not there yet. It is one thing to create a static nuclear explosion. It is quite another to miniaturise the mechanisms down to warhead size, with a viable trigger and reliable delivery system. It is understood North Korea has enough material for about five warheads. Its missiles are erratic. It has no missile ready mechanism.

How to deal with North Korea is an extremely difficult question. It has a regime which is completely despicable. Wishing it would behave well is pointless. Evidently the attitude of China – which appears still to see the continuance of the regime as preferable to the consequences of its collapse – will be crucial. There is no good solution. I am sorry to say that I tend to the view that least evil may have been done if we had not offered palliative aid to save North Koreans from the consequences of a disastrous form of communism.

Put harshly, if we had let large numbers of North Koreans starve to death, at some stage – and I realise a very late stage – the remnant would realise the regime wasn’t doing such a good job after all and string the Dear Leader up. That would have been horrible, but less horrible than the possibility of a war with nuclear elements which could engulf the whole peninsula and have the potential to become at least a US/China proxy conflict.

But I want this morning to concentrate on just one aspect of the problem in relationship to what the UK can do. That is to point out that the Trident missile system, for which New Labour are committed to buying an incredibly expensive replacement, thus smashing the Non-Proliferation Treaties – is absolutely no use whatsoever.

A casual observer dropping in from Mars would look at the UK’s massive nuclear arsenal, compared to the size of the country and its economic problems, would look at New Labour plans to replace our nuclear arsenal with something still more massive, and conclude that Gordon Brown was much more of a crazed militaristic nutter than the Dear Leader. And perhaps the martian might have a point.

Those who argue for Trident 2 no longer make a public case that we need to be able to obliterate Moscow, St Petersburg and Ekaterinburg. They tend rather to emphasise that we need to be able to deter rogue states which acquire nuclear weapons.

But now we actually do have the hawks’ favourite scenario playing out before us, and what use is our massive nuclear arsenal in this situation? Have you seen a single commentator refer to our Trident missiles as a factor? Of course not. They are, in point of fact, the most expensive chocolate teapot in the world, and quite possibly the universe.

Indeed, where are our Trident missiles targeted this morning? Do they still point at St Petersburg, Moscow and Ekaterinburg? Have they had the Pyongyang coordinates fed in? Two of our Trident submarines will be at sea today. What are their instructions? The truth is, the question is the world’s most expensive irrelevance.

The problem with deterrence theory is that you cannot deter a madman, particularly one who is going to die very soon anyway and may think a mass immolation sounds glorious. Let us look at the ultimate worst case scenario. North Korea somehow gets five warheads onto missiles, and fires them – let’s say at Seoul, the US and Japan. So this really is the worst case scenario, let’s say in two or three cases neither the missile nor the warhead malfunctions. The result is hundreds of thousands dead and environmental devastation.

Do we then obliterate North Korea with nuclear weapons and kill tens of millions of people and create untold further environmental damage?

North Korea poses the problem of asymmetric nuclear warfare. It may soon possess a very small number of low quality nuclear missiles, but is potentially mad enough to use them. That madness means that our possession of vastly more and vastly superior nuclear weapons does not deter. North Korea has the potential to be the nuclear State equivalent of the civilian suicide bomber, who can inflict casualties on the most sophisticated army in the world. We have got some understanding of the dilemmas posed by asymmetric warfare. What we have here is just vast difference of scale; the asymmetry remains.

Let me be plain. I am not predicting any of these disastrous outcomes. I am running through the very scenarios that are used in theory to justify the spending of huge sums in my taxes, and those of my children and grandchildren, in government borrowing mind-blowing money to acquire Trident 2.

North Korea shows just how pointless that is.


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75 thoughts on “North Korea – Trident A Complete Irrelevance in a Genuine Nuclear Standoff

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  • eddie

    MJ – journalist weren’t allowed into Gaza either and yet you had plenty to say on THAT subject. It shows you up frankly. And perhaps you could tell me why the video is “Islamophobic”? It is from an Islamic website. If I put up a video of a fundamentalist Christian flogging a young girl would that be Christian-phobic? Please think before you write such dire nonsense. Is the Pakistani army “Islamophobic” for fighting agains the Taliban in the Swat valley? Perhaps the truth is that the government of Pakistan has finally realised that it is hosting a medievalist, fascistic grouping on its territory. You and KevinB seem to be blood brothers or sisters in your racist, anti-Semitic fantasies about dark forces and conspiracies. Time to grow up.

  • MJ

    eddie:

    “journalist weren’t allowed into Gaza either”

    True, but there was a lot of media coverage because a lot of news nevertheless got out.

    My point was that you provide links only to videos that show Islam in a bad light. If you have any anti-Christian ones stashed away you never tell us about them.

    “It is from an Islamic website”

    Self-hating Muslims no doubt, so best pretend they don’t exist eddie.

    When have I ever said anything that was anti-Jewish or racist in any way? I am neither of things and rather object to the accusation.

    Pointing out that the Bank of England gave several million pounds-worth of Czech gold to Hitler has nothing to do with “dark forces and conspiracies” and rather a lot to do with historical fact.

  • eddie

    MJ – “A lot of news got out” – nonsense. No independent journalists got into Gaza. Don’t you remember Jeremy Bowen standing on the border? Any news was heavily censored by both sides, so how was it that you were able to reach such precise conclusions about what was happening in Gaza and yet not about Darfur or North Korea? The truth is that you aren’t bothered about human suffering in those places. You are only interested in human suffering that fits in with your world view about the USA being the root of all evil and of “dark forces” controlling power politics.

    I will happily post videos showing a group of Christians flogging a young girl, but I am afraid I have yet to find them. If you can, please do tell me. To post such a video would not be “anti-Christian” it would be “anti-a group of men flogging a young girl”. I hope you can understand the distinction but perhaps your moral and ethical bias has blinded you to fundamental issues of right and wrong.

    “Self hating muslims” – oh dear, would that be like the self-hating Jews that you get so agitated about? Perhaps they are actually Muslims who don’t like seeing young girls being flogged by a group of men, or do you think there are no decent Muslims?

    Your comment “Rothschild controlled bank of england” speaks volumes and tells me all I need to know about your view of Jewish people and Jewish financiers. It would not be out of place in a BNP leaflet. The libel that the Jews were somehow involved in their own fate in the Holocauset is the biggest blood libel of all.

  • KevinB

    Thanks Craig,

    It’s not really about ‘bankers’ as such.

    It is about getting people to recognise the fact that we are all being manipulated by an elite whose agenda is the advancement of their own, not our, interests.

    I believe this elite enjoy their influence because of a great error that decent peoples have allowed to be inflicted on them.

    We have allowed privately owned corporations to create our money for us and charge us interest for the privilege of doing so.

    This was and remains a catastrophic error. The ‘elite’ whoever they are, enjoy the power this system affords them.

    If we remove this power, their ludicrous power and wealth will automatically fall away and we stand some chance of creating a decent world for our children to grow old in.

    If we allow this system to continue I believe that whatever else we do, we will remain slaves of debt (which most of us already are) and subject to the whims of (let’s look at history and not mince our words) a truly evil bunch of self-serving sh*tbags.

    So, for instance, the ‘MP’s expenses’ scandal might be diverting and instructive…..but it is not important.

    John Pilger published an excellent article today about our political system. Here it is:

    Britain: the depth of corruption

    John Pilger ?” May 28, 2009

    The theft of public money by members of parliament, including government ministers, has given Britons a rare glimpse inside the tent of power and privilege. It is rare because not one political reporter or commentator, those who fill tombstones of column inches and dominate broadcast journalism, revealed a shred of this scandal. It was left to a public relations man to sell the “leak”. Why?

    The answer lies in a deeper corruption, which tales of tax evasion and phantom mortgages touch upon but also conceal. Since Margaret Thatcher, British parliamentary democracy has been progressively destroyed as the two main parties have converged into a single-ideology business state, each with almost identical social, economic and foreign policies. This “project” was completed by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, inspired by the political monoculture of the United States. That so many Labour and Tory politicians are now revealed as personally crooked is no more than a metaphor for the anti-democratic system they have forged together.

    Their accomplices have been those journalists who report Parliament as “lobby correspondents” and their editors, who have “played the game” wilfully, and have deluded the public (and sometimes themselves) that vital, democratic differences exist between the parties. Media-designed opinion polls based on absurdly small samplings, along with a tsunami of comment on personalities and their specious crises, have reduced the “national conversation” to a series of media events, in which the withdrawal of popular consent ?” as the historically low electoral turnouts under Blair demonstrated ?” has been abused as apathy.

    Having fixed the boundaries of political debate and possibility, self-important paladins, notably liberals, promoted the naked emperor Blair and championed his “values” that would allow “the mind [to] range in search of a better Britain”. And when the bloodstains showed, they ran for cover. All of it had been, as Larry David once described an erstwhile crony, “a babbling brook of bullshit”.

    How contrite their former heroes now seem. On 17 May, the Leader of the House of Commons, Harriet Harman, who is alleged to have spent £10,000 of taxpayers’ money on “media training”, called on MPs to “rebuild cross-party trust”. The unintended irony of her words recalls one of her first acts as social security secretary more than a decade ago ?” cutting the benefits of single mothers. This was spun and reported as if there was a “revolt” among Labour backbenchers, which was false. None of Blair’s new female MPs, who had been elected “to end male-dominated, Conservative policies”, spoke up against this attack on the poorest of poor women. All voted for it.

    The same was true of the lawless attack on Iraq in 2003, behind which the cross-party Establishment and the political media rallied. Andrew Marr stood in Downing Street and excitedly told BBC viewers that Blair had “said they would be able to take Baghdad without a bloodbath, and that in the end the Iraqis would be celebrating. And on both of those points he has been proved conclusively right.” When Blair’s army finally retreated from Basra in May, it left behind, according to scholarly estimates, more than a million people dead, a majority of stricken, sick children, a contaminated water supply, a crippled energy grid and four million refugees.

    As for the “celebrating” Iraqis, the vast majority, say Whitehall’s own surveys, want the invader out. And when Blair finally departed the House of Commons, MPs gave him a standing ovation ?” they who had refused to hold a vote on his criminal invasion or even to set up an inquiry into its lies, which almost three-quarters of the British population wanted.

    Such venality goes far beyond the greed of the uppity Hazel Blears.

    “Normalising the unthinkable”, Edward Herman’s phrase from his essay The Banality of Evil, about the division of labour in state crime, is applicable here. On 18 May, the Guardian devoted the top of one page to a report headlined, “Blair awarded $1m prize for international relations work”. This prize, announced in Israel soon after the Gaza massacre, was for his “cultural and social impact on the world”. You looked in vain for evidence of a spoof or some recognition of the truth. Instead, there was his “optimism about the chance of bringing peace” and his work “designed to forge peace”.

    This was the same Blair who committed the same crime ?” deliberately planning the invasion of a country, “the supreme international crime” ?” for which the Nazi foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged at Nuremberg after proof of his guilt was located in German cabinet documents. Last February, Britain’s “Justice” Secretary, Jack Straw, blocked publication of crucial cabinet minutes from March 2003 about the planning of the invasion of Iraq, even though the Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas, has ordered their release. For Blair, the unthinkable is both normalised and celebrated.

    “How our corrupt MPs are playing into the hands of extremists,” said the cover of last week’s New Statesman. But is not their support for the epic crime in Iraq already extremism? And for the murderous imperial adventure in Afghanistan? And for the government’s collusion with torture?

    It is as if our public language has finally become Orwellian. Using totalitarian laws approved by a majority of MPs, the police have set up secretive units to combat democratic dissent they call “extremism”. Their de facto partners are “security” journalists, a recent breed of state or “lobby” propagandist. On 9 April, the BBC’s Newsnight programme promoted the guilt of 12 “terrorists” arrested in a contrived media drama orchestrated by the Prime Minister himself. All were later released without charge.

    Something is changing in Britain that gives cause for optimism. The British people have probably never been more politically aware and prepared to clear out decrepit myths and other rubbish while stepping angrily over the babbling brook of bullshit.

    http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=534

  • VamanosBandidos

    Craig,

    Noting that;

    A- I am not glamorising “Dear Leader” in any way, or shape, or attempting to gloss over his sins, also will not be attempting to try and bury his appalling human rights record.

    B- “Dear Leader” has been using the threats of Military action by the US as good as US has been portraying him as a mad man to all and sundry around the world. In fact the symbiotic relationship between the opposing parties, would make fro an almost hilariously funny comedy, were it not for the seriousness of the situation in the Korean Peninsula, and the potential resultants of fallout on the wider world.

    Whereas;

    Also I would not in a months of Sundays expect the “zombiefied” population of the DPRK to be able to rise up and get rid of “Dear Leader”, and his ilk. Seeing as the condition of these people, and their fear of the outsiders which has been confirmed time and again, renders the population hopelessly unprepared for any kind of mobilization against their government. Which is further aided by a most repressive regime of suppression through legions of secret police, to hold steadfastly to the lines of thoughts of the interested parties thereof.

    However considering that;

    A- Colin Powell, during many of his early visits (circa 2002, onwards) to Japan was pushing the Japanese government to repeal the laws concerning the use of Japanese Military solely as a defensive/peace force, with a view to moving the Japanese Martial Resources in the direction and aims of the US.

    B- recollecting the embarrassing episode of return of the; Japan Maritime Self-defence Forces (JMSDF or Kaigun), ie. The Japanese Navy assets, leaving the Persian Gulf theatre of war for their home waters, amidst the ongoing fighting in Iraq, and Afghanistan, due to the Japanese parliament failing to reach and agreement on renewing the term of the stay of the said naval assets.

    Krauthammer on North Korea: It’s time for Japan to go nuclear

    http://tinyurl.com/re5cqg

    Neo-cons come out guns blazing

    By Jim Lobe

    http://tinyurl.com/qdbyp8

    For those wishing not to sully their computers with venturing into the following dubious site;

    http://tinyurl.com/p5r72z

    here is the points of interest;

    Japan’s Future

    #”But since the July upper house poll, he has refused to consider an extension of the anti-terrorism law that allowed Japanese maritime forces to provide thousands of gallons of fuel to coalition ships operating near Afghanistan. This was a puzzling move, since the election had focused on domestic issues. Mr. Abe, however, had declared his intent to get the renewal passed, otherwise Tokyo would have to withdraw its ships from the Indian Ocean starting on November 1.#

    To be continued;

  • MJ

    eddie: “No independent journalists got into Gaza”

    No, but lots of reports got out from people already there – medical staff, aid workers etc. This was often more telling than Bowen or any journalist could have come up.

    “Self hating muslims” – oh dear, would that be like the self-hating Jews

    That’s right. A little joke at your expense eddie.

    “Your comment “Rothschild controlled bank of england” speaks volumes and tells me all I need to know about your view of Jewish people and Jewish financiers”.

    Eh? It tells you nothing of the sort. It is surely of historical interest and significance however that the family most associated with Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel should, whether by accident or design, have a hand in Hitler’s rise to power. Also in staying there by the way: I G Farben, the petro-chemical company that produced synthetic oil and rubber for the war effort and which used labour from Auschwitz, was partly owned by the Rothschilds. There is nothing remotely racist or anti-Jewish in pointing this out. It is simply a fact.

  • eddie

    KevinB – lending money and getting interest on it is as old as mankind. What on earth do you propose in its place? If I lend you anything I would want something in return or do you believe in a perfect form of altruism? Perhaps this is all tied up with your Jewish fantasies. If you know anything about the history of the Jews you will know that in many countries they were not allowed to do anything other than lend money.

    I laughed at your commment, “the elite, whoever they are” – ha ha. It’s like a little child being scared of monsters in the dark. You say the world is controlled by dark forces and elites and you can’t even name them. Laughable.

    Pilger is an idiot and Herman denied that a massacre took place at Srebrenica. He is an historical revisionist of the contemptible sort.

  • McDuff

    Au Contraire, North Korea is proof indeed that nukes are a good deterrent strategy. The US has been a lot more respectful to the North Korean regime ever since they got them.

    Of course, our deterrents don’t matter because we’d just rely on the NATO missiles anyway. But failing to fund Trident 2 would have upset some wealthy people the PM has lunch with, and we cannot possibly have that.

  • avatar singh

    About korea let me ask this simple question-why shoudl korea not have nulcear bombs with long range missile when britian had one stolen from the americans and americans had one stolen from the Germans. atleast koreans did on their own.

    This is what i wrote way back in 1998 at Indian nulcear test and that applies to korea aswell.

    may 1998.

    Nuclear test was

    needed firstly because then there will never be another gulf-war like situation and even if comes

    the result will be very opposite of what happened in gulf war.Secondly also

    to give sense of pide and honour among thirld world and not only India.

    Remember that it is the same bastard b.b.c. and anglo-american media who

    led a propaganda for nuclear armament of britain and for american missiles in britain.The same british gave a overwhelming

    support to their p.m.when she said in ’82 that she will be ready to bomb soviet union.Forget

    the fact that britan was a mouse campared with soviet power.But that irrational utterance got

    her popularity soaring and media ensured that the small opposition was

    virtualyy eliminated.Not only micheal foot but also kinnock was made villain.and the same briitsh prime minsiter said that if mr. foot wins then the generals will have something to say about this-in other words she was inciting military coupe in uk if foot wins-though media made sure that there was no chance of foot having any support anywhere.Such are the english race.this present british p.m. is

    more right wing than any right extemist party in India and he had to flex his musles(on back of americans) in gulf.If

    it is all right for a third rate country like britain to flex muslcle then why not for India? Do not

    underestimate duplicity of shopkeepers, race like english-with out history,class culture or taste.They

    through their british agents(and that includes all british and english language media )they make

    foreign and domestic and economic policy of america and through america of the world. They destroyed Russia

    with false promise of so called free market so that they can sell drugs(alcohol and cigattetes) to starving russians. Suddenly

    they feel campasion for the poor of india who might have had the money spent on nuclear bomb? When did they

    ever care about their own poors who have always been crimanalized . No this

    rubbish must be stopped.In argument of britain getting borrowed american nuclear bomb it

    was said by the same media the even the huge money spent is worh while because even 10 times more

    spending on conventional weapon is not equivalent to one nuclear bomb.

    The same is true of India. This must be understood clearly and said clearly-

    The biggest enemy of India(and for that matter of all non anglo-american race)is england and america.

    In fact India must make a military pact with China and try to get rid of anglo-american influence

    out of asia.

  • avatar singh

    uk trident missile is itself a case of proliferation by the united states. because us kindly gave to uk at nominal fee the missile and bombs -itis not of uk making.

    besides britian had stolen the bombs tehchnologty from america which had stolen it from the hijacked german scintists.

    for that reason alone britan has no leg to stand on nonprolioferation -it itslef is beneficiary of nuclear proliferation by america.

  • HappyClappy

    Never mind wasting time with trolls like; eddie.

    Anyone frequenting this site more than once, will soon recognise the reactionary, suck up, lickspittle, that this eddie troll is, further, he is not worth even a single electron to be disturbed, never mind billions of these little wonders of our universe getting inconvenienced.

    Pity the carbon foot print that the likes of eddie leave behind, if only there was a culling order for these serfs from their Malthusian Masters.

    Get this one;

    The news trickling out from Macedonia, of them all places (don’t forget Camp Bond Steel);

    Breaking: US Army moves to DEFCON 2

    http://tinyurl.com/pxpee6

    DEFCON 5~3 ……

    DEFCON 2

    This refers to a further increase in force readiness just below maximum readiness. The most notable time it was declared was during the Cuban Missile Crisis, although the declaration was limited to Strategic Air Command. It is not certain how many times this level of readiness has been reached.

    DEFCON 1

    This refers to maximum readiness. It is not certain whether this has ever been used, but it is reserved for imminent or ongoing attack on US military forces or US territory by a foreign military power.

  • mark

    In this clip, via Newsy, Abraham Denmark, an East Asia expert, states: “Militarily the North Koreans – qualitatively – are very poor. Most of their equipment is very outdated… their soldiers are malnourished and not very well trained. But what they lack qualitatively, they make up for quantitatively. North Korea has over a million soldiers.”

    North Korea is an impoverished, seemingly military-obsessed nation.

    http://www.newsy.com/videos/northern_exposure_the_korean_threat

  • Richard

    Could be talking out of my arse but I kinda assumed North Korea was a bit of a narco state like Burma – plus, obviously trades in any thing that it can add value to.

    It certainly must have cost a bit to make the bombs – sure some of it could have been quid pro quo but they’re getting their money from somewhere. Hmm… dodgy.

  • Courtenay Barnett

    Craig: you say, “A casual observer dropping in from Mars would look at the UK’s massive nuclear arsenal, compared to the size of the country and its economic problems, would look at New Labour plans to replace our nuclear arsenal with something still more massive, and conclude that Gordon Brown was much more of a crazed militaristic nutter than the Dear Leader.”

    Isn’t the real picture as follows:-

    1. The UK, as does the US, and a number of industrialised nations have deliverable nuclear weapons capability.

    2. The known result of use of these weapons is MAD ( mutually assured destruction).

    3. The rational decision is that the nuclear weapons not be deployed against any nation ( especially another nuclear armed nation).

    4. The result of one nuclear nation attacking another with its nuclear weapons is that the country attacked would retaliate and deliver a counter strike that would inflict levels of damage the initial aggressor would not be willing to accept as the risk run of a first strike. Thus, the two nations remain at a standoff and avoid war as much as possible ( e.g. The Cuban Missile Crisis).

    5. If 1 to 4 above is an accurate summary ?” then comes the question ?” why do the nuclear powers continue to build more nuclear weapons, knowing full well that they cannot “rationally” use same in a war. Is it that these powers are irrational? I suggest not.

    6. The reasons for building these WMDs, I suspect are:-

    1. Economic reasons related to the way in which the military-industrial complex functions in the world.

    2. Reasons of having intimidatory military force at hand ( e.g. China without the bomb, is not the same as China with the bomb ?” in the world’s scenario of geopolitics).

    There are more issues at hand, but the two (2) above ( crudely stated)

    should summarise why the big powers hold these weapons. Reason one ?”

    economic. Reason two ?” politics.

    So ?” if the big boys in the world have these reasons ?” why then does North Korea pursue these weapons?

    A. There are two “Koreas” with their own history over the course of the post World War 11 era, and one, South Korea, finds itself more associated with the US; while, the other finds itself affiliated with China. The politics and reasons behind the division of Korea is important to give the present issues historical context.

    B. There was a mid-1990s Geneva Agreement with the US, subsequently nullified, and there was an admission by North Korea of its nuclear programme.

    C. North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty in 2003 (something the US had done some time before ?” and ?” related to this observation is a sister treaty seeking to avoid the militarisation of space).

    Point: No good example coming from the US for responsible international behaviour.

    D. There have been crippling economic sanctions imposed on North Korea.

    E. There have also been efforts at international agreement to demilitarise the Korean Peninsula.

    The basis reason why North Korea seeks to have the nuclear weapons ( putting aside any consideration of the eccentricities of its “great leader” or the extreme poverty of its people) is that the regime sees more opportunity for negotiating to advantage by having the weapons ( as a bargaining chip) rather than be subjected to terms without this chip in hand.

    That I believe sums up two things:-

    1. The lunacy of countries such as Britain and the US spending more and more on these undesirable and ultimately “useless weapons” ( if either nation is seriously concerned about human survival on planet earth); and

    2. The lunacy at 1 above being matched by a logic that says ?” it is better to negotiate in a mad world by having some equivalence of mad weapons as bargaining chips to hand.

    To my mind, if there was any sanity to the processes that have been here outlined, there are steps which should be taken at the global level, and these would rationally included:-

    i) A return to the NPT by all nuclear powers ?” US and Israel included.

    ii) Global reduction of these WMDs.

    iii) Commitment to operate within treaty obligations, and not encourage or support proliferation. It would have to be the US to take the lead, Russia and China to follow, and the likes of the UK, Pakistan, India, Israel would through international and good example be obliged to fall in line.

    Craig: Having a crazy North Korean attack in mind, you also said, “Do we then obliterate North Korea with nuclear weapons and kill tens of millions of people and create untold further environmental damage?”

    Rationally, we can’t go down that road. But, since the WMDs are a global reality, what we should all be doing is having a serious look at i), ii) and iii) above and hasten to what has to be a position of “global sanity”. The global arms industry; the profits generated from weapons productions; the false philosophies of “security” and the supposed need for maximum force of armaments post- 9/11 ?” all serve to fuel a public mind-set that ends up supportive of governments deeply immersed in the nasty business of the international arms trade. Do not expect to see this line of reasoning in any sustained way, being expressed in the Guardian,

    Times, Independent or any of the corporate media. The sad truth is that there is a nexus between main stream media and a sustenance of the orthodoxy of supporting the arms trade. Informed public opinion and a well organised, sustained campaign for disarmament can begin to make a difference. There are rational and necessary steps to be taken in exposing the lie in the suggestion that all these further expenditures on arms is really going to make an iota of difference to some motivated terrorist, or will make us safer. Arming up to fight the terrorists and rogue nations, has become the new post cold war rationale for increased expenditures on arms. End result ?” more and more of taxpayers money is spent on building arsenals that simply cannot be used!

    So, “Do we then obliterate North Korea with nuclear weapons and kill tens of millions of people… ?” No, we do not ?” instead, we kill the WMDs production, along with the philosophies that led to their production, and act rationally to reduce global arms production, and seek in a timely way to avoid the global catastrophe which use of such weapons would inevitably lead to.

  • eddie

    Edo “A journalist…is a person who practices journalism, the gathering and dissemination of information about current events, trends, issues, and people while striving for viewpoints that aren’t biased.” Wikipedia. If you agree that Melanie Phillips is a journalist I will agree with you that Pilger is too. Otherwise let’s just agree that he is a polemicist who distorts the facts to match his distorted world view. He may be a hero to you but he is a creep to most thinking people.

    Jaded, who mentioned the Federal Reserve? Not me. I questioned MJ’s dubious reference to the “Rothschild controlled bank of england” a phrase that is both irrelevant and untrue.

    MJ I am still waiting for those links to the videos of Christians flogging young girls. Have you found them yet? Perhaps you will admit that drawing attention to a video of the Taliban flogging a girl is not Islamophobic?

  • tony_opmoc

    Strong possibility that the magnitude 4.7 seismic event that occurred on 25 May 2009 and the 4.3 seismic event that occurred on 9 October 2006 and were claimed by North Korea to be Nuclear Tests…Were Not Nuclear Tests.

    I think the US would know if they were. They tend to be rather good at spotting such things.

    Check out http://earthquake.usgs.gov/ for details. They state “the USGS cannot positively identify the seismic event as a nuclear test”.

    I suspect that the US has done a deal with North Korea for the benefit of the Israeli’s and their desire to attack Iran. Its all about propaganda and is bullshit.

    Craig meanwhile is close to approving the starvation of Millions of North Koreans on misinformation.

    Its amazing what crap is served up for public consumption – yet how easy it is to get much closer to the truth by a simple Google search that takes less than 5 minutes.

    Tony

  • Abe Rene

    The key to North Korea may be China, which may exert a stabilising influence despite the North Korean nuclear programme, all the more if the Chinese themselves are alarmed at recent events. Barring invasion or attempted attacks on Kim Jong-Il, therefore, using Chinese mediation may be most likely to bring benefit in the situation. If in addition Kim Jong-Il passes away and there is a change for the better comparable to that following the deaths of Stalin or Hoxha, so much the better.

  • Courtenay Barnett

    This news item found today after doing a google search with the entry “Latest news North Korea”:-

    May, 27th Tokyo:

    May, 28th Washington:

    ” North Korea Threatens to Attack South, Calls Truce Ending Korean War Invalid Washington Post – Thu May 28, 12:00 am ET

    TOKYO, May 27 — North Korea vowed Wednesday to attack South Korea if ships from the North are searched as part a U.S.-led effort to stop vessels suspected of carrying missiles or weapons of mass destruction. It also declared that the truce that ended the Korean War in 1953 was no longer valid.”

    The issues on the table are real, the dangers are real, the solutions, with a sense of honesty and reality – might now be considered – given the reality of these kinds of issues.My points about the global arms trade are now brought into sharpe and direct focus. Recall the “Matrix Churchill” indicent in the UK? Want to hear you Craig – given the realities of what is fast unfolding. Over to – worthy of your comment, experinece, and thoughtful inpiut – right Craig? – over to you.

    PS. Give me some good news Craig – tell me I am incorrect in believeing in the reality of what I am reading – with all your diplomatic experience – is someone flying a “false flag”?

  • Courtenay Barnett

    SORRY ?” SENT TOO SOON. MY APOLOGY FOR THE TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS I MADE EARLIER. I HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THOSE WITH THIS RE-POST. THE THOUGHT ERRORS REMAIN ALL MINE.

    This news item found today after doing a Google search with the entry “Latest news North Korea”:-

    May, 27th Tokyo:

    May, 28th Washington:

    ” North Korea Threatens to Attack South, Calls Truce Ending Korean War Invalid Washington Post – Thu May 28, 12:00 am ET

    TOKYO, May 27 — North Korea vowed Wednesday to attack South Korea if ships from the North are searched as part a U.S.-led effort to stop vessels suspected of carrying missiles or weapons of mass destruction. It also declared that the truce that ended the Korean War in 1953 was no longer valid.”

    The issues on the table are real, the dangers are real, the solutions, with a sense of honesty and reality – might now be considered – given the reality of these kinds of issues. My points about the global arms trade are now brought into sharp and direct focus. Recall the “Matrix Churchill” incident in the UK? Want to hear you Craig – given the realities of what is fast unfolding. Over to – worthy of your comment, experience, and thoughtful input – right Craig? – over to you.

    PS. Give me some good news Craig – tell me I am incorrect in believing in the reality of what I am reading – with all your diplomatic experience – is someone flying a “false flag”?

  • eddie

    Tony

    The US has done a deal with North Korea? What fantasy island do you live on? Where is your evidence? If you idiots think that google provides the answers to your fantasies then you are no better than the nutballs I saw at Speakers’ corner last Sunday, all being laughed at by their sane compatriots.

  • Edo

    eddie, “most thinking people”.. what? like you? Don’t make me laugh. Cognitive Dissonance – look that one up on Eraserpedia and see where it gets you.

  • Clark

    Hi All,

    while the discussion seems to be raging on this topic, I suspect that a few regulars may have missed Craig’s previous entry on the 27th…

  • Tony_opmoc

    eddie,

    It’s to NK’s domestic advantage to give the impression that they have nuclear arms and have tested two – but the first was almost certainly not a nuclear device or if it was it went fizzle, and its highly probable that the second went likewise. You may believe everything you read in the Daily Express, but I take such “news” with a pinch of salt.

    With regards to your views that Jews/Israel are not in control of the Worlds financial system – then I kind of agree with you but with some reservations.

    It’s International Globalists who are in control of the agenda, and whilst some of them may come from a Khazar background and may have connections to both Eastern Europe and Israel, they only influence rather than control it. They do however have far more influence over the political, economic and media systems in both America and the UK – than is healthy for either America or the UK. I do give them credit for achieving such influence but think this is largely due to weakness and corruption within the American and UK elites that are skillfully exploited.

    At the moment the entire World is in a precarious state, and in great danger of descending into poverty and civil war which would be disasterous. This is largely due to the elites trying to maintain a Capitalist system based on perpetual growth which is unsustainable in a finite world – unless they go through the process of crashing and destroying much of the World and its population every 50 years or so.

    This is not a sensible way to control World affairs as it turns the Planet into a living hell.

    There are far more sensible solutions but our first problem is to find away of removing power from the insane psychopaths like Kissinger, Brzezinski and Co who are intent on completing their genocidal agenda before they themselves drop dead.

    Tony

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