New Norwegian Killing

by craig on July 25, 2011 1:39 pm in Uncategorized

Last night two masked men in military uniform shot dead a 27 year old man in his home in Sandnes, Norway. Nowhere in the mainstream media can I find anybody wondering whether this is related to the massacre in Norway the day before – even though both were killings with guns, (very rare in Norway), and either this guy really was assassinated by soldiers, or both were carried out in false uniform.

Have I turned into a crazed conspiracy theorist, or is this lack of curiosity a little bit strange?

Can this second incident the same weekend in Norway of armed killers in uniforms relate in any way to the “two other cells” of which Breivik spoke in court? I am not claiming to know the answers, but there seem to me obvious questions here and I don’t understand why the media is not asking them.

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  1. YugoStiglitz

    25 Jul, 2011 - 1:52 pm

    Yes. Not really.

  2. I think that Tarpley’s suggestion that the massacre is a NATO linked reaction to Norway’s decision to end its contribution to the Libya bombing campaign, is wildly improbable.

  3. A lot of tweets about Sandnes, but the vast majority are in Norwegian. The few in English are about “Cross Country Skiing – Blink Festival in Sandnes cancelled after two days”. Some links go to brief Norwegian media reports of the shooting but with no speculation that I can see (via Google translate).

  4. Lack of curiosity is sadly becoming the norm. Curiosity is sadly becoming heretical and marginalised.
    Out of interest, have the Norwegian police confirmed that the Oslo explosion was a fertilizer bomb? Forensic analysis of the debris should quickly reveal the type of bomb.
    Just curious.

  5. I’ve just fashioned a hat with last of my tinfoil from the kitchen drawer. So here’s my idea. European governments have tolerated the far right up until now.
    But things went too far on Friday. The man who was shoot in the head was planning something similar and his assassination was preventative and a warning.

  6. But what would fit in with Craig’s conspiracy theory from Tarpley’s article is:

    “As usually happens, these extra shooters were soon expunged from the hegemonic media narrative.1″

    Of course, expunging from life leaves no questions answered. Tarpley’s link asks if there were two or three shooters in the Fort Hood massacre.

  7. Paul Johnston

    25 Jul, 2011 - 2:29 pm

    That he was shot in the head but died later in hospital suggests a slight lack of professionalism on part of the killers or a low calibre weapon.

  8. Low calibre weapons are the choice of professional killers as they deform while penetrating the skull and tumble around within the skull doing a vast amount of damage, the majority of brain tissue can be destroyed, but leave the autonomic region that controls breathing and heart function intact. Death is determined when the heart stops.

  9. “That’s just perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the Universe has that.” – Slartibartfast

  10. “European governments have tolerated the far right up until now.”
    Andy, European governments are all to “the far right”, thats the problem!!!.

  11. “European governments have tolerated the far right up until now.”

    Uh huh.

    EU statistics record 45 “left-wing” terrorist attacks last year and 0 “right-wing” terrorist attacks. But by all means don’t let this get in the way of your narrative…

  12. Craig,

    It is interesting about this new shooting, but there isn’t enough information yet.
    I think there should be questions asked about building damage and ammount of fertilizer needed to cause this damage. Was there a timer? Was it activated by mobile phone? Apparently the island where the shootings occurred was an hour and a half away from the explosion site and a boat is needed to get there. Explosives had been recovered from a car, thought to have been left parked next to the Utøya ferry.

    Have you heard of the sewer work going on near the Oslo government building days before the explosion?

    According to Gordon Duff of Veterans Today, Breivik appears to have quoted verbatim, large sections from the preaching of Theodore Kaczynski in his 1500 page online rant.

    As for the Knights Templar connection, I think the smokescreen of bull and mis/dis-information is descending rapidly.

    I think the Norwegian, Israeli Boycott-Palestinian theme and also the Geller-Tea Party are leads worth following.

  13. what about the testimony given in the Madrid courts after the massive madrid train atrocities?

  14. These posts have certainly brought the Z trolls in. Hasbara? Megaphone? CAMERA?

  15. Nothing wrong with a bit of amateur sleuthing Craig, especially given the wholesale abandonment by our fascist state to pursue the truth on our behalf – if it actually ever did that is!

    And while we’re at it, suggests the very intriguing: “Three men flee scene of fatal crash in Hertfordshire” h t t p ://w w He suggests this case may be linked to a possible killing of Sean Hoare. It may be prudent to watch how this investigation goes. It really shouldn’t be hard to find these men, if the state wants them to be found.

    David Kelly’s death (my money’s on his being assassinated) and other modern happenings (you know that I mean) should make us perk up and engage full in this sleuthing. We’ve all heard the expression “all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to stay silent.”

  16. Another report on the new shooting. This has it as a head injury.
    New Norway violence critically injures 1
    Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:40PM GMT
    Friends and loved ones gather at the Oslo cathedral to mourn victims killed in twin terror attacks from a bombing in downtown Oslo and a mass shooting on Utoya island on July 24,2011 in Oslo, Norway.
    As the Norwegians are mourning the brutal deaths of scores inside the country, another shooting has reportedly left a male critically injured in the southwest.
    The 27-year-old victim was the target of a headshot in Sandnes on Sunday, Xinhua reported.
    He has been placed under medical care, but his condition is reportedly unstable.
    Reports say two men in military fatigues knocked on his door, broke into the house and carried out the shooting. Police are looking for the two suspects.
    Witnesses also saw two men fleeing from the scene in a red Audi car.
    Experiencing its worst instances of violence since the World War II, the country came under shooting spree and a bombing attack respectively on the Utoeya Island in the south and the government headquarters in Oslo.
    Anti-Islam Christian fundamentalist Anders Behring Breivik has claimed responsibility for both attacks, which have together claimed 94 people so far.
    He has described his actions as ‘gruesome but necessary,’ and said he would explain himself at a court hearing scheduled for Monday.
    Breivik has expressed strong anti-Islam views. He has formerly said that he has had several discussions with the racist and anti-Muslim group, the English Defense League, which opposes the spread of Islam.
    A memorial site has been set up for the victims outside Oslo’s cathedral.
    The country’s Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said, “Every single one of those, who we have lost is a tragedy in itself. Together, it is a national tragedy. We are still struggling to come to terms with the extent of the tragedy. Many of us know someone who has died. Even more of us know someone, who has felt at loss. I personally know many, who died.”

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    Comments (18)

  17. Avi of Mondoweiss

    25 Jul, 2011 - 3:42 pm

    You might find this of interest:

    “Terror suspect mentioned ‘two more cells'”

    It is likely that the two individuals dressed in military uniform were tying up the proverbial loose ends. Someone either failed to carry out his end of the bargain or posed a risk to the perpetrator(s).

    So far, evidence points to the fact that the gunman was a part of a larger group, possibly a network spanning more than one European country. Now given the various rallies held in previous months and years across Europe. It is highly plausible there is such a large scale (terrorist) network.

    Time well tell. The British MI-5/6 have offered to assist Norway.

    As an aside, Glenn Greenwald has reported that out of more than 200 terrorist incidents last year, the EU found that only 1 was connected to Islamic groups.

    It’s certainly something worth mentioning to any ignoramus out there.

  18. “Anti-Islam Christian fundamentalist Anders Behring Breivik” – So he isn’t a terrorist then?
    Conclusion: Terrorism is the exclusive preserve of those mad Muzzie Mullahs hiding across the world, under our beds, waiting to kill us all – or so the subtle impressioning goes.

  19. “European governments have tolerated the far right up until now.”

    Uh huh.

    ”EU statistics record 45 “left-wing” terrorist attacks last year and 0 “right-wing” terrorist attacks. But by all means don’t let this get in the way of your narrative…


    I mean their gatherings, EDL demonstrations, for example. Their hate sites.
    Their attacks on Muslims or people they think are Muslims.
    What about this guy? ”on January 15, 2010, Terence Gavan, a former soldier and British National Party member, was convicted of manufacturing nail bombs and a staggering array of explosives, firearms and weapons. It was, Mr Justice Calvert-Smith said, the largest find of its kind in the UK in modern history. The fact that David Copeland used nail bombs to deadly effect in London in 1999 makes this an especially disturbing case. Gavan had previously pleaded guilty to 22 charges at Woolwich Crown Court:
    “Police discovered 12 firearms and 54 improvised explosive devices, which included nail bombs and a booby-trapped cigarette packet, at the home Gavan shared with his mother. He told detectives he had ‘a fascination with things that go bang’, the Old Bailey heard. After the case, head of the North East Counter Terrorism Unit David Buxton said Gavan posed a significant risk to public safety. ‘Gavan was an extremely dangerous and unpredictable individual,’ he said. ‘The sheer volume of home-made firearms and grenades found in his bedroom exposed his obsession with weapons and explosives … Gavan used his extensive knowledge to manufacture and accumulate devices capable of causing significant injury or harm.”
    Lucky Terence Gavan was caught.

  20. Scouse Billy

    25 Jul, 2011 - 4:22 pm

    At least Tarpley does his research before writing.
    Care to tell us why you consider his suggestion as “widely improbable”?
    Do you think Gladio was put to bed, or have you been “warned off”, Craig?

  21. XXY – “Terrorism is the exclusive preserve of those mad Muzzie Mullahs”
    Very good article on that subject by Greenwald here:

  22. On the BBC website. Double counting?
    Police have now revised down the island killings to 68 but increased the bomb death toll by one to eight.

  23. BBC News have got Alexander Meleagrou-Hitchens (I think he is the son of Christopher Hitchens) from that International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation that Jonathan Paris comes from. He has been ‘analysing’ what lies behind Breivik’s actions and his affiliations. When talking about Breivik’s hatred of Muslims and his attempt to warn of a takeover of Europe by them, he actually included this phrase …Muslims outbreeding the Europeans… as if it was a possibility.

  24. @ dreoilin. You are right. A very good article indeed. Thanks.
    “Terrorism has no objective meaning and, at least in American political discourse, has come functionally to mean: violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes, no matter the cause or the target. “

  25. Scouse Billy

    25 Jul, 2011 - 5:16 pm

    More “wildly improbable” connections from Veterans Today:

    “Norway’s national oil company has decided to boycott Israel because of the violence in Gaza. This is a huge issue with Israel, seen as a threat to their national security and is likely to draw a violent response. A car bomb near their oil company headquarters is very much a standard warning, “government to government” as it were. Adding the slaughter of children to it is a Mossad signature.”

  26. “When talking about Breivik’s hatred of Muslims and his attempt to warn of a takeover of Europe by them, he actually included this phrase …Muslims outbreeding the Europeans… as if it was a possibility.”
    Why do you say, “as if that were a possibility”?
    The overall European fertility rate is 1.45 per woman, i.e. far below the replacement rate, the Muslim rate is said to be three times that. If that is correct, what Meleagrou-Hitchens has said is merely a short-range extrapolation.

  27. Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent
    “… Only 3.2 per cent of Spain’s population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe’s Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys’ names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza. …”
    This is why it seems necessary to consider the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe that will mean not only the extinction of Christianity in Europe but of the European peoples, whose only hope of posterity, according to Sarkozy, is to marry an immigrant.

  28. Scouse Billy Norway also divesting from Israeli construction companies.
    Ivarfjeld is one of those Zionist supporting sites as you can see.

    The Boycott Divestment Sanctions campaign ia having a significant effect on Tel Aviv.

  29. I think you make a good point Craig. If Islamic extremists rather than a far right Christian extremist who hates Muslims, immigrants and “inter-racial” marriages, there would be a lot more attempts to identify people linked to the gunman (there were plenty in most newspapers, who didn’t wait to find out whether it was Al Qa’ida or not – most notoriously The Sun with it’s ‘Al Qaeda massacre’ headline, but broadsheets too).

    The assumption seems to be that because he’s white and not a Muslim he must be a lone nut who acted alone and we don’t need to worry about others. I’m not so sure – there are millions of people in Europe who share his ideology opposing immigration, spouting hatred against immigrants and Muslims and talking nonsense about “uncontrolled immigration” and “the Islamicisation of Europe” (as if Muslim immigrants are all hardline fundamentalists, as if their children and grandchildren won’t be as influenced towards secular values or Christianity by the society they’re moving into as e.g Irish immigrants have been; and as if later generations’ birth rates won’t fall (every past wave of immigration shows birth rates fall for later generations).

    This ideology is dangerous and has been encouraged by the big parties competing to be “tougher” on immigration and Muslims/terrorism (as if the two were the same thing). This has made claims by the BNP and the more extreme members of UKIP and similar parties in the rest of Europe seem credible when they’re not.

    I doubt we’ll hear any calls from politicians or police for Christian churches and communities to do something about the extremists in their midst either, the way we ridiculously have about ordinary Muslims in relation to Al Qa’ida, as if Al Qa’ida had any significant support among Muslims.

  30. ”Only 3.2 per cent of Spain’s population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent.”
    Last time I visited my friends in Spain it seemed as if half the town was populated by Dutch, Germans, Brits, many with young kids. Oh, and I’m sure I saw some suspicious looking blond haired blue eyed types.
    ”This is why it seems necessary to consider the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe …”
    You must be kidding!

  31. The alarmist figures you quote are wrong CanSpeccy and you ignore the fact that Muslims are only 6% of the European population and that their birth rate has been falling (as with most immigrant groups over the generations).

    Even according to the (insanely right wing) Pew research center in the US the Muslim population in Europe increased from 29.6 million in 1990 to 41 million in 2010 – that’s not doubling, that’s not even a 50% increase.

    Europe’s non-Muslim population has been rising in the meantime, so as a percentage of population Muslims are only about 6%.

    The Pew report also found the Muslim birth rate in Europe has been falling and is projected to fall further.

    Apart from that the children and grandchildren of religious immigrants may become less religious as easily as becoming more religious or staying the same and the majority of Muslims in Europe are not fundamentalists.

    The big threat is that we’ll get a double dip recession due to 1930s style austerity policies by governments and that will boost support for deluded ideologies like yours and the Norwegian guman’s.

    I refer to your comment claiming that “it seems necessary to consider the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe that will mean not only the extinction of Christianity in Europe but of the European peoples, whose only hope of posterity, according to Sarkozy, is to marry an immigrant.”

    That is completely out of touch with reality and the fact that a large minority of Europeans believe it and blame anyone less right wing than them for it is considerably more worrying than Al Qa’ida, because the anti-“multiculturalism” extremists are much more numerous than the Islamic fundamentalists in Europe.

  32. Juan Cole:
    ”Breivik’s medieval romanticism, his artificial European nativism, his pan-Christian vision, his hierarchical, racist view of society, all belong to bits and pieces of past dark episodes in European history. It is as though he has picked through the trash heap of history and attempted to resurrect broken icons, toys and ruined weapons. ”

  33. We are told by the BBC that Breivik was motivated in part by the history of the Knights Templar. Graphics taken from his book are shown including an image of St George and his red cross.
    Why then is the mumbo jumbo associated with the British Monarchy and perpetuated in the nonsense of the system of the Orders of St Michael and St George, the Order of the Garter and so on not swept away?
    The bestowing of these gongs and medals along with the silly costumes that the bearers wear keep the system of patronage and preferment alive. For instance the tax exile and Conservative Party funder Lord Ashcroft is a KCMG, Knight Commander of St Michael and St George. Totally ridiculous and outdated. We are a laughing stock.

  34. Craig,
    ” Have I turned into a crazed conspiracy theorist, or is this lack of curiosity a little bit strange?”
    The phrase “conspiracy theory” is commonly used to deflect and debase otherwise sound analysis and questioning of suspicious events. If you suspect that there are gaps in the official version, or you discern that the duly declared conventional wisdom on the event is incomplete or logically incoherent – you are a potential “conspiracy theorist”. Maybe one day Craig – you will graduate from the lower school to realise your full potential.
    Subject to correction, the following has come to mind:-
    1. The attack was on a public holiday. Why would a person willing to kill a large number of young people not want to maximise the level of deaths by exploding the bomb or bombs on a day when many, many, more people would be at work in Osolo on a regular work day and be killed? (calculated containment – range of politcal impact – intended European or global impact).
    2. If Brevik is so anti-Muslim – what logic is there in not going directly after the immigrant target – but instead – he opts for a home-grown set of young people who have some political views within a political party that you do not agree with? He, or his cell or group ( if it ultimately turns out that he was aided) at some stage made a decision between the ”political/Norweigan” as distinct from the ”immigrant/race/religion” target – and chose the former. The choice of target tells us much about the orginal source of the operation, not merely in Brevik’s mind, but relative to any associated cell or group. Not to say that ultimately I can find sanity in the mind of a man( or group) that engages in this kind of slaughter – just asking – with the hope that the full truth emerges. ( motive – modus operandi – links to actual or potential fellow operative terrorists).
    3. It remains to be seen what the forensic results show about the bomb blasts. This kind of criminal investigative work is important. What type of explosives? The nature of the physical damage in revealing whether there was one bomb or more?What type of bomb, what type of explosives – where acquired – from whom acquired – purchased alone or with accompaniment by another – if so – who? Information as to whether there were any explosives witihin a building – was it one bomb outside the buildings – if within a building – how did he plant it undetected? What was the overall cost of his operation – and when a credible estimate is obtained – how and where from did he get the money to finance the operation? ( pysical evidence – deducted evidence to estalish single operative or reason to search for associates in the crime). Or –
    4. Maybe, implidedly, as Juan Cole suggests:-
    ” The Crusade, he insisted, was necessary because in ten years Muslims would be a majority in most of Europe and they were raping Christian girls. The fear of brown men raping Norwegian women is of course the ultimate in iconic racism, redolent of Jim Crow in the Old South.”
    The problem started in his penis and moved up to his brain – virility psychosis!( he had delusions that his dick would never be as effective as that of the immigrant men he despised most).
    No conclusions being drawn by me yet – merely ”conspiring” with Craig to get to the truth.

  35. Thanks Andy, that’s an excellent article.

  36. Andy, Re: “You must be kidding!”

    Why must I be kidding? You neglected to say.

    Your inability to do math of Muslim demographics in Europe is not remedied by quoting from Juan Cole.

  37. Mary – ” The bestowing of these gongs and medals along with the silly costumes that the bearers wear keep the system of patronage and preferment alive. For instance the tax exile and Conservative Party funder Lord Ashcroft is a KCMG, Knight Commander of St Michael and St George. Totally ridiculous and outdated. We are a laughing stock.”

    It is a pecking order. An associate of Lord Ashcroft summed it up for me one day over a drink. He said about Ashcroft:-

    ” Michael is a barrow-boy who wants to be a spiv”.

    Some people see themselves in their status ( or lack thereof) – accomplishments ( or lack thereof) – as being lesser beings – so they have to move up the hierarchical ladder as they perceive it. In Ashcroft’s case he has accumulated a mind-boggling amount of wealth and purchased prestige. In Brevik’s case he has elevated himself through mass murder to “Templar status”.

  38. The inability of people like Andy and Mary to grasp that Breivik, whether a pawn in a psyop or a genuine crusader, has a real issue explains why that issue is not going away any time soon and why the risk of an indigenous anti-immigration insurrection or terrorist movement must be taken seriously.

  39. ” “European governments have tolerated the far right up until now.”

    Uh huh.

    EU statistics record 45 “left-wing” terrorist attacks last year and 0 “right-wing” terrorist attacks. But by all means don’t let this get in the way of your narrative…”
    the idea of left or right is dependant upon where one stands on the political spectrum.

    do you know what the criteria is for defining left or right wing by europol?

  40. Deepgreenpuddock

    25 Jul, 2011 - 6:50 pm

    Webster Tarpley has been mentioned a few times on the thread. It might be useful to put a little context into this.

    A few weeks ago I was handed a publication (from about 1985). It came to me through a physician I know, and who I was giving a lift to, as she was temporarily without a car. She had been handed the book by a patient, who thought it was interesting, providing an analysis of the war strategy of the USSR in the mid-eighties. ( I was waiting for her to finish her work so she gave me the document for ‘entertainment’.

    The book looked extremely ‘serious’- it was designed to look like an official intelligence analysis, and my first impression was that it was a government publication.

    I started reading it and quickly developed the impression , admittedly with the advantage of hindsight, that it was written by some very odd people, who were offering the thesis that The USSR was on the point of launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike.
    Their analysis could not have been more wrong. I was rather confused by trying to make sense of something that looked as if it should make sense, but clearly didn’t.

    At one point it launched into a tirade against Henry Kissinger who, at the time, had been suggesting that the USSR was on the point of collapse. the thesis of the book was that the USSR were far ahead of the west in technology and economic power.

    It was, not put too fine a point on it, paranoid nonsense. The language was also actually rather amateurish and on a more critical reading not really like the kind of semi-academic language likely in a publication of any credibility or substance, although at casual glance it may have seemed rather weighty. I became incredulous that such a thing could be the product of sane people but it had all the appearance of a very ‘serious’ report.

    I then got on to Google and did some basic enquiries and discovered that the publication organisation was the front for an independent US politician who offered himself up for election at every opportunity but never actually had any support. (Maybe polling a fraction of what Ralph Nader polls. Can’t actually remember the details). Very marginal indeed.

    It may be worth noting that Webster Tarpley was the lead author of the ‘report’.

    Oh yes, and it might be worth noting that the doctor’s speciality was Psychiatry.

  41. ah right – you’re using figures from Pew quoted in the Telegraph speccy – well the link i posted from Pew is more recent (January this year) than yours (2009) and shows an under 50% increase in Muslim population from 1990 to 2010. So either the Telegraph got the figures wrong or one or both of the Pew reports did. Either way Pew figures wouldn’t be reliable – and even if they were Muslims are not going to be a majority in Europe with only 6% of the population and a birth rate falling much faster than the European average plus secularisation of later generations.

    Far more danger of extremist views like your own agreement with the ideology of a deluded mass murderer becoming too influential.

  42. So what exactly are you trying to say about Breivik, CanSpeccy/Alfred? That there is some VALUE in what he did? WTF is a “genuine crusader” who sprays bullets all over an island full of young people?
    In case anyone is interested, ‘Snowmail’ is saying they’ll be showing an interview by Christopher Dickey with Dominique Strauss Kahn’s accuser on Channel 4 News, which starts at 7pm. In five minutes or so.

  43. Scouse Billy

    25 Jul, 2011 - 6:56 pm

    Mary, thanks for the link.
    Zionist supporter but against Bilderberg – seems confused to me. Then again most people are – confused, that is.
    Meanwhile, the various Orders, Guilds, Livery Companies are no anachronistic joke.
    Here’s a film called Is It Live or Is It Livery, that is thought provoking:

  44. @ Canspeccy…”the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe…” You are dangerous bigot, you should be found and drowned in zionist man milk.

  45. “Why do you say, “as if that were a possibility”?
    The overall European fertility rate is 1.45 per woman, i.e. far below the replacement rate, the Muslim rate is said to be three times that. If that is correct, what Meleagrou-Hitchens has said is merely a short-range extrapolation.”
    lets put it this way in a very crude manner – 60 million non muslims produce at 1% gives us a figure of 600 000 and
    2 million producing at 3% gives us 60 000
    so at what point does the muslim population of 2 million out breed and out number the 60 million?
    and a point beyond that what way has islam or muslims directly affected you. that is what cant you do now that you could before?

  46. Dreolin – yes – that’s exactly what CanSpeccy is saying. He believes all the nonsense about how the 6% of the European population who are Muslims are going to take over and impose Sharia law on us.

    CanSpeccy’s second post in this thread includes the claim that “This is why it seems necessary to consider the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe that will mean not only the extinction of Christianity in Europe but of the European peoples”.

  47. Yes, of course, this guy was shot by Norwegian soldiers. That’s why they were wearing masks and military uniforms. The masks to conceal their identity, and the military uniforms to let people know they were soldiers…. hang on, isn’t there something wrong there? Absolutely barking bonkers…

  48. “This is why it seems necessary to consider the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe that will mean not only the extinction of Christianity in Europe but of the European peoples”.
    the “extinction” of christianity has not needed any islamic or muslim intervention, we have managed to do that all by ourselves. when the state took the place of the church , gave the church the status of royalty and took for itself the power of God.
    european peoples cannot become extinct in scientific terms, they belong to the same race as any other peoples, all people belong to the same human species and the same one race. and if one looks at it in terms of ethnicities, well there are no distinct discrete ethnic populations in europe, there are gradations, a fuzziness of one to the other. that is there is no pure one people, or race , the nazis got their fascistic genetics all wrong.

  49. Andrew said: “you should be found and drowned”

    Which makes Andrew sound very much like a homicidal maniac obsessed by vile imagery.

    And while Dreoilin can believe whatever she wants, as she no doubt always does, she would be wise not to believe Duncan McFarlane’s warped interpretation of my view.

  50. Answer my question, Alfred, you coward. Oh sorry, CanSpeccy you coward. I asked you, WTF is a “genuine crusader” who sprays bullets all over an island full of young people?

  51. Wendy you are about right on the demise of Christendom. But you do not understand the meaning of the word “race,” which is a perfectly normal and valid biological term which is quite distinct from species.
    All members of a sexually reproducing species are capable (more or less) of breeding with any other member (of the opposite sex, obviously) of that species.
    A race is an interbreeding population with a distinct gene pool that is more or less separated from other races. The term race is applied in many contexts, including domestic crop species. Thus, for example, before the introduction of GM crops, farmers in Asia saved part of their crop as seed for the next year. Over time, as the result of natural or artificial selection, the population of wheat or rice or whatever in any area came to differ genetically from that in adjacent areas. The different populations are what are known as “land races”.

    The same differentiation has occurred in the human species. The Russians are obviously different from the Chinese, who differ from the Australian aborigines, and within a geographical area such as Great Britain, people differ from one part of the country to another, and thus might for some purpose or other be considered differing in race.
    But what bigots like Andrew should understand (not that I expect him to, and not that I therefore expect him to apologize for his outrageous comment that seems to pass moderation here like a knife through butter) is that I have said nothing about my personal view on the actions of Breivik, which are undoubtedly monstrous.
    What I have talked about is the underlying reality that lib-lefties and mass immigration fanatics like Duncan McFarlane deny. One of those realities is that mass immigration is opposed by the great majority of the population in every European country. So immigration is an issue upon which the reality of European democracy rests. By forcing mass immigration is on the European peoples the elite are clearly intent on subverting democracy.
    In fact it seems most probable that the elite aim is to create one mongrel, deracinated race of helots, without national identity, religion or culture of any meaningful kind — merely the culture that arises as a biproduct of the commercial system.

  52. David,

    It is not me that says they were wearing masks and military uniforms, it is eye witnesses who were inside the house. It is reported in pretty well all the Norwegian media. I agree it is very peculiar indeed. Most likely explanation is that the military uniforms were fake, to explain the carrying of weapons or as part of some group fantasy.

    Are you suggesting the incident did not happen?

  53. When you’re finished wittering, Alfred/CanSpeccy, kindly answer my question.
    WTF is a “genuine crusader” who sprays bullets all over an island full of young people?

  54. ”Muslim demographics in Europe”
    I don’t know how anyone can predict there will be X number of Muslims at some future date, it’s ridiculous. And even if you could see into the future, so what, why should anyone give a damned?

  55. Breivek… is… is a Knob. His political and philosophical ramblings would be riciculous, grotesque, and absurd; if they weren’t so dangerous. That such a little prick can feel proud of his noble act of ‘liberation’ makes one want to vomit.

    The inflated ego, the vanity, the towering pride, the conceit… what a dickhead Breivik is… but then I’ve always thought this about Fascists.

    It’s the romantic, nationalist, mythology, the emphasis on Blood and Soil, and the demonisation of a particular ethnic group, who are deemed to represent all that’s wrong with the world… well we’ve been down this particular, blood-sodden, filthy track in Europe before, and with disasterous consequences to follow, when Europe almost destroyed itself.

    The rise of the Nationalist Socialist right in Scandinavia is a dirty little secret which the elites in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland choose to keep silent about, when in fact the spotlight should be turned on these countries, and the reasons for the rise of the extreme right examined and uncovered. Because, if the extreme nationalist right can achieve power and influence here, then who is safe?

    Once the Islamophobic, nationalist right, become part of the mainstream, as they have done in Denmark, opposing them becomes highly problematic because by then they have become part of the character of the state, and therefore opposition means opposition to the ‘culture’ of the state, a state that has become infected and tainted by Islamophobia and nationalism.

    I used to find Scaninavian ‘exceptionalism’ and romantic nationalism, rather quaint and even amusing, in condecending way; now I find it disturbing and frightening.

  56. @Deepgerre the candidate your referring to is Lyndon LaRouche an ex Marxist (though national socialist might be more apt) who regards just about everything as a conspiracy.Im not sure larouche tarpley his sinister organisation(complete with SS style thugs) gets its money from but it certainly has an inordinately large presence.I can understand why people fall for it as the research can be good but its basically designed to fit LaRouches paranoid megalomaniac worldview.

  57. Come on, Speccy-Alfred, you’re quick enough to snigger at the Irish from behind your monitor. Why can’t you answer a straight question about what you’ve already written? You do realise that being qualified in molecular genetics doesn’t disqualify you from being a racist, don’t you?

  58. Below is some of what the supporters of Israel should know. I have read similar reports hundreds of times before. The solution to the issue of the Occupation of Palestine by Israel must be found. It is at the crux of what we have been discussing.
    26th July 2011
    The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) says more than 80 percent of households in the impoverished Gaza Strip rely on food assistance.
    According to the UNRWA, the Israeli blockade has caused the residents of the enclave to become aid dependent, a Press TV correspondent reported.
    Charitable organizations like the Cooperation Without Borders Association provide food to the needy people in Gaza, the report added.
    “We are trying to help those in need. The livelihood of families that do not have income is very difficult. The international community did not help end the siege, so we do this with the help of kind people,” said Adel Rezeq of the Cooperation Without Borders Association.
    The Cooperation Without Borders Association, which is financed by some locals in the community, provides poor families including the disabled and sick people in Gaza with humanitarian aid.
    The Palestinian Information Centre – 24 July 2011
    GAZA, (PIC)– Israeli occupation forces (IOF) in armored vehicles raided the central Gaza Strip near Breij refugee camp on Sunday morning and bulldozed cultivated land lots, local sources said.
    They added that the IOF troops advanced 300 hundred meters east of Breij and leveled agricultural land amidst heavy shooting, but no casualties were reported. The IOF troops routinely raid Gaza border areas in a bid to impose a buffer zone, a thing rejected by the Palestinians.

    The Israeli regime laid an economic siege on the Gaza Strip in June 2007 after the democratically-elected Hamas took over the administration of the enclave.

    Israel denies some 1.5 million people in Gaza their basic rights, including the freedom of movement and their rights to appropriate living conditions, work, health and education.
    Both on the Australians for Palestine website.

  59. The perverse ‘logic’ employed by Breivik, that the mass-slaughter of members of one’s own ‘tribe’ would somehow act as a wake-up call to rest of the tribe, and alert them to the bigger threat posed by the powerful Muslim menace within, is a bizarre and dreadfully conceited fallacy. It would be grotesque, if so many young and innocent people hadn’t paid with their lives for this Knobheads fantasties.

    What a fool this Breivik really is, Knight of the Templars… my arse! He’s a Dick.

  60. Andrew – I took your comment to be in jest, but I don’t think threats of drowning are helpful! If liberals are to make their case against violence, it might be best to do it without – err – threats of violence.
    Alfred, there isn’t any manual pre-moderation here, although sometimes WordPress does hold some things back automatically (I think if it has more than one link inside the body of the comment). There are no trigger words as far as I know, nor are some commenters more likely to be held back than others. Your views are not more likely to be pre-censored.

  61. I agree with Writeon – how Breivik thought that this would change minds is peculiar, especially given that he presents as highly intelligent (notwithstanding his warped world-view and possible psychosis, I should add).
    The frustration for the anti-immigration right-wing (both on the extreme right and the conservative right) is that Norwegians now will be steadfast in their general openness, and their liberal attitudes to immigration and multiculturalism. Changing that perspective now would look like they were giving in to terrorism. If we analyse the atrocity just in the narrow terms of how much it achieved Breivik’s manifesto aims (and it is difficult to do so given the scale of the murder involved) I suspect over the long term this will be seen as a massive own goal.

  62. There are a number of reasons for the rise of the nationalist right in Sandinavia. It began when the nationalist right made common cause with the those on the left who rejected the attitude of the Social Democrats, and the ruling conservative/economic elites to the European Union and post-nationalism. The central moral and ideological, intellectual idea behind the idea of an integrated and post-nationalist Europe, was simple; turn europe into one country economically so that the costly rivalization between the competing countries, which had led to so much destruction and loos of life, would become irrelevant, and counter-productive. War would become impossible again in Europe, because one would effectively be declaring war against oneself.

    But the nationalist right and large sections of the left saw the creation of a european super-state as a direct threat to the national state which they believed was the primary, or even holy, platform on which the ‘volk’ and their ‘unique’ culture sprang from. No nation, no volk.

    Coupled with opposition to the European Union was the second threat, the threat from the Muslim immigrants, who first came as cheap labour, and then, astonishingly, decided to stay. A new tribe on the block with a different religion, different skin colour, and a ‘challenging’ culture. The new jews.

    As in Nazi Germany, the threat posed by Muslims is a fantasy, but a useful one, precisely because it’s a fantasy and therefore extremely flexible as it isn’t subject to the normal rules of logic and reality.

    What’s shocking is that the language and rhetoric used by modern Scandinavian politicians and others who reek of Islamaphobia, is strickingly similar to the language used by the Nazi leadership in relation to Jews. The extraordinary emphasis on the primacy of ‘culture’, for example.

    Scandinavian elites are very conceited and regard themselves as being ‘moral super-powers’ compared to the more brutal and old-fashioned western imperialist powers. The idea of Scandiavian exceptionalism and superiority is deeply ingrained… and insufferable. I remember one particular example, when a politician on election night was singing the praises of the virtual unigueness of Scandinavian democracy, reminding his supporters that they were, after all, the least arrogant and most humble people in the world, aren’t we?

  63. In that context, Jon,
    A much re-tweeted tweet:
    G.W. Bush, 9/11: “We’re gonna hunt you down.”
    Stoltenberg, 22/7: “We will retaliate with more democracy”.

  64. Edwin Stratton

    25 Jul, 2011 - 8:46 pm

    Craig, I have a friend in the town next door, very familiar with Sandnes. She tells me there are biker gangs in the area, and that attacks on each other aren’t unheard of. She translated the term ‘military fatigues’ to ‘army surplus, just like you get in Camden’. She says it’s unconnected to Oslo or Utoya, perhaps a Hells Angel turf war incident.

  65. technicolour

    25 Jul, 2011 - 8:50 pm

    CanSpeccy/Alfred’s classic tactic of attempting to present a virulent and vicious philosophy as rational fact has wasted hours of people’s time here. In a way I’m pleased to see him showing his true colours (‘genuine crusader’ indeed) but in another find it so sickening and distasteful that I’m tempted to wish he’d been moderated at birth: into a decent, honest sort of person, preferably.

    The Pew report is indeed utterly flawed: did quite a bit of research on it, which I will pull up when I have time. The worst thing about its existence, though, when one comes down to it, is that even starting to combat its mixture of false assumption and disinformation forces even normal people to sound like racists, since its basic premise is racist. Otherwise, I fear that people who want to fabricate despicable things about other people are hardly likely to be persuaded by real facts: look at old ‘CanSpeccy’ here. Generally, I second Andy.

  66. … and as to multiculturalism, well, I think the very idea, or ideology of the monoculture, the nation as a state, the ‘volk’ as the exclusive and holy basis of the state; is an incredibly dangerous… quasi-religious…myth. What strikes me about Breivik is his collosal arrogance and his massive ignorance. Half-baked ideas, half-understood concepts. A bizarre mismash of Ayn Rand’s rabid ultra-liberalism and Dan Brown’s Da Vinci codes, with a bit of Tolkien thrown in for good measure!

    Imagine filling one’s head with this crap, turning pulp-history into an ideology, and then going on a ghastly killing spree to project oneself onto the central media stage… I’m going to write my manefesto on the subway walls using the blood of innocent children, to force people to see and understand how serious a thinker I am!

  67. “Wendy you are about right on the demise of Christendom. But you do not understand the meaning of the word “race,” which is a perfectly normal and valid biological term which is quite distinct from species.”
    there are no races in human species : scientific fact. Genetics informs us of that fact: there is not enough difference between different peoples for the status of race to be conferred upon any imagined distinct peoples.
    im afraid youre living in lala land if you think that the human species has anything other than the one race we all belong to.

  68. technicolour

    25 Jul, 2011 - 9:05 pm

    Wendy, thank you.

  69. Technicolour,
    I’m smiling at your “moderated at birth”. And you’re quite right, he has wasted hours here in the past.

  70. Scouse Billy

    25 Jul, 2011 - 9:18 pm

    David Cameron’s loyalties lie where exactly?
    “For those who are sensitive about mention of Israel, it is worth emphasising that this article is not about the rights or wrongs of Israel as a nation or its people – our interest and attention is directed to David Cameron, Britain as a Sovereign nation and the Conservative Party. In particular we believe that the British public are entitled to know and understand what their Prime Minister is doing – especially where National loyalty, conflict of interest and treason are concerned.”

  71. Edwin Stratton

    Thank you. I hope you are right, but that all sounds a little complacent. Do these bikers generally wear this army surplus stuff (if so its a different bike culture) and do their attacks on each other often include shootings? It’s a damn strange sounding sub-culture.

    Looks like an extremely nice middle class house in the photo.

  72. Alfred/CanSpeccy,
    I think it is fair to say that the phenomenon in Norway is illustrative of how the tunnel-vision of the internet and the wide availability of websites dedicated to (even non-violent) extreme perspectives lend support to deranged individuals such as Breivik.
    But I wondered given the ways in which you have talked about race in the past, you may have declined to appear on these threads. Previously, you described immigration as a ‘genocide’ – knowing full well the impact of such a loaded term. You refer to Duncan – who has a history of writing nuanced and historically well-informed articles here – as a mass immigration “fanatic”. Worryingly – notwithstanding your condemnation of his violence – you refer to Breivik potentially as “a genuine crusader”. It is precisely this kind of black and white thinking – replete as it is with extraordinarily inflammatory language – that lends metaphorical ammunition to lone madmen.
    > In fact it seems most probable that the elite aim is to create one mongrel,
    > deracinated race of helots, without national identity, religion or culture
    > of any meaningful kind — merely the culture that arises as a biproduct of
    > the commercial system.
    I don’t see why you think that is the most probable outcome. But again, even the language you think in (“mongrel”, “deracinated”) is extreme, angry, uncharitable. This is fuel on the fire, and not helpful. It lacks nuance.
    I debated direct democracy with Evgueni on another thread, and my main objection to it at that point was that it could give rise to a tyranny of the majority – presently towards Muslims. I hear what you’re saying about democratic wishes, but given that you would assert the media is deliberately biased, would you not consider that people’s views about immigration are at least in part a function of the propaganda they have been subjected to? You would assert, I imagine, that the media – being under the control of the elites of which you speak – is mainly liberal and pro-immigration. But it can be shown that the largest media outlets (predominantly Murdoch’s) are very right-wing and aggressively xenophobic – Fox News in particular, and to a substantial degree The Sun also. Even the nominally respectable Daily Telegraph in the UK checks what Migration Watch thinks whenever it can, and I see the BBC is again giving the BNP a fresh platform.
    The media rush to link the atrocities in Norway to a non-specific “Al-Qaeda” further illustrates this phenomenon – “was it the Muslims”? So, I would contend that if the media wasn’t so good at stirring up race-based sentiment, support for anti-immigration policies and complaints against multiculturalism would fall dramatically.
    In any case, given that the media carries such aggressive xenophobia, how do you square that with what you say is a pro-immigration elite? Either the global media are the elite, or are under their control – and yet the media are pursuing the opposite line to what you believe the elite wants.

  73. Writeon,
    Those of us who voted against joining the EEC, and against subsequent treaties, were concerned about issues other than defending the ‘volk’. Admittedly, Ireland had not been independent for very long, and it seemed a bit much to throw it away, given all the lives lost in achieving it. But women like me who had young sons were worried about a common defense policy. We did not want to see our sons drafted into a European Defense Force. And in the early days, we were assured over and over that it would never arise …

  74. Technicolour/Dreoilin
    > And you’re quite right, [Alfred] has wasted hours here in the past.
    I think it is better that Alfred can be open with his views even if some believe they are hateful and poisonous, so that they can be discussed and criticised openly. Just imagine if Breivik had presented his ideas on a liberal blog some years ago – if people had involved him in a genuine discussion, perhaps some switch might have been thrown (or not thrown) in his head, and history would have played out much less violently.

  75. Sure, Jon. No problem.

  76. Jon, I agree. CanSpeccy/Alfred; regrets for sounding intemperate.

  77. Dreoilin,

    You might like this – film by Captain Sherlock/Abeldanger on the narco-(tapeworm)-economy and its history:

  78. For the hard of thinking:

    Canspeccy’s reference to the possibility that Breviek might be a “genuine crusader” is, as unsavoury as it might seem, an entirely valid one.

    Tt doesn’t matter what YOU think Dreolin (or me, or anyone else) – if BREVIEK himself thought he was being a “crusader” – no matter how misguided or insane that sounds to you, me or anyone else – then yes, that would validate him as being a “genuine crusader”.

    Clearly CanSpeccy, when writing his original reference to this “genuine crusader” aspect assumed a certain degree of intelligence in the people likely to read it. Looks like he underestimated the “intelligence” of a number of the readers here.

  79. For underestimated, please do read “overestimated”: I’m not past being a thick cunt myself sometimes.

  80. @Martin, I don’t think it is invalid or deliberately biased to read “genuine crusader” as having a note of praise to it. Alfred will hopefully elucidate.
    Incidentally, I don’t think it is fair to label people with whom one disagrees as unintelligent – there was good reasoning behind this particular response, even if it turns out that Alfred has been misunderstood. My view is that it is best to assume intelligence as well as good faith of ideological opponents – since we’re all searching for the truth, presumably, even if we come at it from different angles and directions.

  81. “we’re all searching for the truth, presumably, even if we come at it from different angles and directions.”

    Jon, this place attracts many disinfo shills – hadn’t you noticed ;)

  82. Martin:

    Yes of course it matters what Dreoilin thinks, or indeed, what you think, about Britvik. What I think is that the man was clearly insane; but not only do I think this, his actions prove it. He may have considered himself a ‘genuine crusader’. I am no more obliged to treat this view seriously than I would accept a statement by Suharto claiming to be working on behalf of indigenous peoples. It is so plainly, empirically wrong.*

    Your theory that people are not what they ‘are’ but what they believe they are is an interesting one, however. Equally interesting is that ‘CanSpeccy’ would urge this point of view (or as I prefer to call it, double think) on a board already sickened by the action itself.

    By the way: “I’m not past being a thick cunt myself sometimes”

    Is that a good thing?

    *Unless, of course, one takes the view that the Crusaders were an insane bunch of greedy ruthless religious fanatics, and I doubt all of them were.

  83. I agree, Jon. I have made the point several times over the past two days that people who run websites which provide background ‘hum’ to the Far Right need to take responsibility for the words they write, since clearly they seemed to have formed part of the reiforcement and echo chamber of this mass murderer’s ‘journey’, though of course we are still learning the facts.
    I think it best that people are open about what they think and are challenged, equally openly, on this. I don’t think, however, that a political blog is a therapeutic service; I am not suggesting that you were inferring that it was.
    I do think it disgraceful that some of these people – and I detect a frisson of this in relation to the specific contributor to whom you alluded – seem almost to be gleeful that this massacre has happened, as though it somehow renders some of sort of (bogus) credibility to their untenable, unscientific and, frankly, (and I say this again becasue it needs to be said) racist, positions. I do not read any evidence in the writings of this contributor of sincere condemnation of this act. I think that everyone can see this, clearly, and accordingly, viscerally now as well as (that which one already knew – and which Duncan’s and others’ excellent, evidence-based posts underline) intellectually, can deduce the extreme pole whence the contributor’s arguments and world-view emanate. This contributor’s approach is fairly typical of a certain segment of the web-centred Far Right.
    I openly confronted the contributor around Christmas-time and refused to let go because I felt it was time to call their bluff, to stop beating around the bush, to stop playing around with elegant words and call it out for what it is.
    The Norway massacre is not some new and exciting, clever or heroic manifestation; it is simply second-rate ‘brownshirt’ Nazis doing what they’ve always done.

  84. “if BREVIEK himself thought he was being a “crusader” … then yes, that would validate him as being a “genuine crusader”
    Is that what your ‘intelligence’ is telling you, Martin? So, if I think I’m a pink lizard from Venus, that validates me as a pink lizard from Venus?
    I see.
    Leaving that aside, what Alfred said was, “The inability of people like Andy and Mary to grasp that Breivik, whether a pawn in a psyop or a genuine crusader, has …”
    He made no reference to what Breivik thought, or how he saw himself. He posed three possibilities as to what he WAS.
    Scouse Billy, thanks for the recommendation. I’ll probably go off and have a peek at that now, as arguing before bed tends to keep me awake. :)

  85. In fact, since ‘a bunch of greedy ruthless religious fanatics’ accurately describes certain elements of the far right perhaps calling this person a ‘crusader’ was not so far off the mark, after all. CanSpeccy, perhaps I should applaud you for condemning him, his ideology and all the people who would exploit it with such a damning parallel.

  86. “He posed three possibilities as to what he WAS”
    Correction, two.

  87. “if BREVIEK himself thought he was being a “crusader” – no matter how misguided or insane that sounds to you, me or anyone else – then yes, that would validate him as being a “genuine crusader”.”

    Um. Crusader ? It rather depends what you mean by “genuine”, doesn’t it ? Or did he actually think he was conquering Jerusalem ?

    If he thinks he’s a crusader, that validates him as such ? And I’m the Queen of Sheba.

    It is a waste of time, because nothing changes.

  88. Good point technicolour – the forerunners of corporations were partnership agreements between two or more knights on crusade on how they would split the loot up.

  89. Dreoilin, lol Horlicks beats arguing at this time of night.
    Watne Madsen has a piece on NATO, the NWO’s mafia enforcer:

  90. Canspeccy/Alfred likes to start futile arguments that he can win.
    The core argument that he will defend this time is that immigration is unpopular with a majority, so if it isn’t curtailed, we can expect more atrocities such as this.
    Alfred, be straight, use less words, gain respect – time is valuable.

  91. Martin – you either aren’t familiar with CanSpeccy’s views (which include the belief that immigration to Europe is “uncontrolled” (it’s not, there are detention centres and deportations across Europe) and that immigration to Europe is “genocide” of the “indigenous peoples”) , or else you share his bizarre beliefs.

    In the context of his previous posts in other threads and the ones in this one in which he says “This is why it seems necessary to consider the possibility that Breivik is exactly what he says he is: a crusader fighting a Muslim takeover of Europe that will mean not only the extinction of Christianity in Europe but of the European peoples”, there’s no reasonable interpretation other than that CanSpeccy/Alfred shares Breivik’s paranoid beliefs about how the 6% of Muslims living in Europe are going to outbreed and outnumber us (even though even the Pew research says their birth rate is falling faster than that of other Europeans) and then impose Sharia law on us.

    That’s just an updated version of 1930s anti-semitism applied to Muslims and immigrants rather than Jews.

    Your implication that we don’t understand the subtleties of Alfred’s point is not convincing – there are no subtleties. He believes the Muslims are going to impose Sharia law on all of us in Europe based on dodgy statistics and dodgy assumptions.

    People with his beliefs are far more dangerous than Al Qa’ida are to the majority of Europeans who believe in democracy, tolerance and the continued co-existence of different cultures, races and religions (nothing new in that). They’re more dangerous because there are more of them and they influence the policies of the big parties towards condemning “multiculturalism” (their new code-word for people with different skin colours or religions and marriages between them and white Europeans).

  92. Duncan, watch it; you’re inviting an avalanche of “I never said blah blah blah, show me where I wrote blah blah blah” from Alfred. That’s what he does.

  93. “an avalanche of “I never said blah blah blah, show me where I wrote blah blah blah” from Alfred. That’s what he does.”
    Well, plus he starts by saying “it is said that blah blah blah”, rather than “blah blah blah”.

  94. Hi Suhayl,
    I agree with all of that.
    > I think it best that people are open about what they think and are challenged, equally
    > openly, on this. I don’t think, however, that a political blog is a therapeutic service
    This raises the important point – which odious views in general ought to be “openly discussed” versus denying them the oxygen of publicity. I am in quandary on that, I suppose. I engage here with one or two folks even though I think their views are potentially dangerous – for the reasons already stated – since I think some understanding between liberal/left and their right-wing positions might genuinely come about. There is also the possibility that one can try to encourage another person to see what logical tests their views pass or fail.
    On the other hand, getting the EDL or the BNP on Question Time may be a mistake, since such nationalist groupings get an electoral fillip regardless of how badly the panel member fares during the debate. I can see why the British socialist left generally adopts the No Platform policy (though interestingly I went to a national SWP meeting some years back, and found that central committee members shut down any attempts to discuss it).
    So yes, what views should be engaged at blog level is a difficult call. Certainly, my conjecture that Breivik might have been positively influenced had he engaged outside of his warped part of the internet is an extremely long shot. It is more likely that a man capable of shooting so many people is very ill indeed, and no amount of exposure to moderate perspectives would dissuade him from his terrible intent.

  95. But Jon, as I’ve said before, I really do admire your patience, calm rationality and sort of all-round Bodhisattva thing.

  96. When I read that Breivik was said to have been active on the blog, Gates of Vienna, it rang a bell with me; about three years ago I posted a pro-Palestinian comment on a YouTube clip, and I received a nasty personal message in my YouTube in-box as a result;

    “thegatesofvienna (3 years ago)
    You disgusting anti-semite pile of shit.
    Take your foul mouthed Jew hating Hitler arselicking carcass and go spew your filthy vomit elsewhere.
    There’s no place for repulsive anti-semite trolls like you on this site.”

    As you can see the message was from somebody called “thegatesofvienna”, and having just check, this account is still online;

    I am somewhat relived to note that this person is registered as being in Austria rather than Norway, as it would be quite disquieting to think that I had attracted the attention of a future mass murdering psycho.

    Apparently the Website that Breivil is said to have been an occasional commenter to, appears to be this one;

  97. Someone said: “The perverse ‘logic’ employed by Breivik, that the mass-slaughter of members of one’s own ‘tribe’ would somehow act as a wake-up call to rest of the tribe, and alert them to the bigger threat posed by the powerful Muslim menace within, is a bizarre and dreadfully conceited fallacy.”
    Which is why, my initial assumption, which I am still inclined to, is that the Breivic atrocity was a psyop intended to intimidate and discredit the 50% of Norway’s population who oppose immigration.
    However, I also considered whether the crime was in fact exactly what the perpetrator claimed it to be, and if so, what that meant.
    I concluded with this:
    “If Breivik acted alone, he is a madman with a warped genius of the highest order. If his action was a state crime, Europe is surely headed for a very dark age of tyranny.”
    But perhaps Dreoilin and the other big brains here have a better explanation like, maybe, “the Jews did”. If so let’s hear it.
    But in any case, there is absolutely nothing I have said here or elsewhere to justify targeting me with cretinous and obscene abuse. But then for some people here, a reason appears not to be a necessity.
    As to those who cannot understand that if you destroy a nation as a hereditary, religious and cultural entity, you are undertaking precisely what Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term, called genocide, I cannot help them. I have provided an explanation (, I cannot provide an understanding.

  98. Deepgreenpuddock,
    Yes, indeed you are right about Tarpley. The perennial presidential candidate you refer to is Lyndon LaRouche who believes that Obama is an agent of the Queen of England whose sinister scheme is to flood the US with drugs as revenge for the war of independence. Tarpley is typical of a lot of conspiracy theorists in that making wrong predictions and having his analysis shown to be completely false never stops him from being believed every time he writes a new bit of nonsense. He reminds me of those preachers who declare the world will end soon and yet still manages to go back to full congregations even after the prophecy doesn’t come true.
    And yes, Wayne Madsen appears to be very similar.

  99. So CanSpeccy admires this piece of shit terrorist garbage, Breivik, and gushes about him being a “true crusader”. Well, he certainly had similar delusions in calling himself a Templar knight. It certainly doesn’t surprise me that CanSpeccy would be on the same page as it seems Breivik went after a frequent target of Canspeccy’s rages – liberals and he was also concerned with the destruction of the “indigenous race” of Europe. I wonder if Glenn has any comment on his erstwhile ally as I repeatedly warned him of Alfred’s politics even as Glenn raged against “teabaggers”.

  100. I know that sticking to the original subject isn’t very fashionable round here, but what the hell … I thought a translation of the Norwegian article from up top might be helpful.
    start with the httpcolonforwardslash bit that’s liable to get you into ohnomoderation, then follow it with
    Well, allright, a shorter link might have been helpful, too, but these things only go so far, y’know.
    It’s astonishingly (to me) good, but still only a stupidmachine job. What I mean is, “He was shot by the police unknown persons, said Føyen” is probably not the sense of what was actually written, and maybe isn’t even a transparent admission of foul conspiracy … (*evil grin*). On the other hand, it amused me enough to make me decide to post it.
    Good night

  101. At least two terrorists behind Norwegian youth camp massacre – Witnesses

    Witnesses of Friday’s mass killings in the Norwegian youth camp say there were two terrorists as the shootings were coming from “two different places on the island at the same time ,” Norwegian VG paper reported on Saturday.

    Several young people who survived Utoya’s massacre, told VG paper that the shootings were coming from “ two different places on the island at the same time .”

    “ I believe that there were two people who were shooting ,” VG quoted a 23-year old Alexander Stavdal.

    The witnesses described the second man as a 180-centimeter tall, dark-haired man with Nordic appearance with “a pistol in his right hand and a rifle on his back .”

    – ‘ The shooting came from all different directions ,’ she added.

  102. Thanks Jon for your eloquent rebuttal os the smear directed at Duncan, I also very much value his excellent research and articles here and on his own site. I absolutely reject the labels the media is using for an organised rightwing terrorist, until they have done their work and laid open the connections and allegiances and and, its all reaction, nothing else.
    Instead the EDL’s top man is getting lots of publicity, on Newsnight, on Radio 5 live just now, just as Nick Griffin got half an hour for his unopposed non ballanced rants some years back, they are actively helping to spread these outrageous racist views, call it for what it is.

    Why has our media forgotten to balance these protagonists who, like canspeccy/Alfred, answer with platitudes and skirt around the issue?
    After years of letting rabid footbal supporters organise themselves into the EDL, their combined criminal record in years must be bigger than their membership, there is still no police officers countering their arguments, answering questions as to their efforts on the righwing spectrum, to the poiont that these terrorist supporters,imho thats what you are canspeccy, are allowed to issue veiled threats on Newsnight and get away with doey eyed references to the Crusades.

    ‘this could happen here in five or ten years time’, he said, he clearly felt special, like a puppy following his runt brother who daren’t be associated with his incontinent behaviour.
    Norways 22% that vote for rightwing parties is also an indication as to how protracted and skewed the investigations are likely to be, more like pulling worms.
    I think his masonic connections will be hushed up by the intentions here, there and everyhwere to call this the actions of a madman, a psychopath,loon.
    Thats a soppy response and I hope the parents who lost their children will do their own digging, come together and demand that the state opens up these creepy crawlies amongst them.
    We have been far too soft with these knuckle draggers, under the disguise of democratic discourse, this european terror virus has flourished and turned into a disease.

    The peculiarity is that they have a lot of support by the MSM and christsians, as they call themselves, but they daren’t say so at this time, still waiting for Prince Phillip to open his mouth defending freemasonry.

    Thanks for all the excellent links, we have a great team here.

    Now lets think progressive, because the combined story is hopefull, Murdochs demise and a newfound realism, coupled with falling tabloid sales, as expected, leaves britain with a window of political opportunity, for the next ten years or so chances exist for alternatives to flourish, its beginning to look like the mistrust and suspicion of Government police and politicians could translate into a new political dawn.

    The EDL has recognised this and we should too.

  103. “But perhaps Dreoilin and the other big brains here have a better explanation like, maybe, “the Jews did”. If so let’s hear it.” — Canspeccy/Alfred
    Don’t you dare try to smear me, you coward. You have never seen me write “the Jews did it” on this blog, or anywhere else, about anything. Including nine one one. So go stuff your anti-semitism smear. Along with your talk of genocide, which is patent nonsense in the context in which you use it. I live in a country where every effort was made to wipe out the culture of the indigenous people. We have never termed it genocide or attempted genocide, for obvious reasons. And for you to be sitting over there in Canada (or anywhere else) walloping on about the potential genocide of the British people via immigration (as you have done in the past, and as you are doing now about Europeans) is nothing short of daft.
    I question your sanity. But for now I’m done with you.

  104. @Canspeccy/Alfred, your suggestion that Dreoilin might be anti-Jewish is entirely baseless, as you know. Play fair.
    I made a lot of reasonable points above – and without any abuse at all! – so would be pleased to hear your response. In brief:
    The use of the word “genocide” given the context in which most people understand it, regardless of who coined the term; the use of fire-n-brimstone language about race that lacks suitable sensitivity and necessary nuance; the dilemma of accepting anti-immigration sentiment without taking into account race-based propaganda in the media, particularly Islamophobia; and why the media is taking an opposing stance on race given the pro-immigration views that you maintain the elite hold.

  105. Suhayl – thanks :)

  106. re:translations from the Norwegian, and Craig’s piece upstream on media laziness – it only takes a couple of clicks from the given starting point to see a piece on how Gro Harlem Bruntland (sp ?) was on that island that morning, and how the killer had intended to get there earlier … I’m a little suprised it wouldn’t have been thought worth at least a mention.

  107. Dreoilin You said to Can Speccy/Alfred (Why did he change his name btw?)
    I question your sanity. But for now I’m done with you.

    The latest on Alfred’s site –
    How Big Pharma Is Driving People Mad
    Drugs and Madness: Image source.
    According to the US National Institute for Mental Health, at any one time, approximately 5% of Americans suffer from a serious mental illness, while Mental Health America estimates that 54 million Americans suffer from some form of mental disorder in a given year. Thus, during their lifetime, one may assume that a large proportion and perhaps a majority of Americans suffer some form of mentally illness. This is a startling realization and suggests that in America, and most likely other Western nations also, mental illness is now epidemic.
    Just joking Alfred!

  108. Jon,

    direct democracy looks very attractive to *minority* political groupings precisely because they realise that through issue politics is how they can realistically have the best chance of achieving their aims, an overall majority being out of reach. A limited alliance of left- and right-leaning groups as well as religious groups and environmentalists is how the initial introduction of DD could come about.
    The reason these disparate groups of people can all imagine that DD would be beneficial to their causes may be routed in human psychology. It has been shown that people over-estimate how representative their views are of the majority views. CanSpeccy, I think, believes that DD in the UK would lead immediately to blunt anti-immigration policies being introduced because he believes this is the will of the majority in the UK. You also think there is a danger of this. I think the danger is overstated, for the following reasons.
    In our current political reality, the only political tool available to us is to vote for one party or another, with associated broad policies. Small details of policy are not discernable in elections for practical reasons, in effect this is an extremely crude political tool. We can only talk about simple things like that party is broadly pro-immigration and this party is anti-immigration and so on. As they say, if your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. People who are not racist or nationalist are nevertheless left with a difficult choice – if they are concerned about the effects of immigration, they must choose a pro-immigration or an anti-immigration party, depending on how concerned they are overall in the context of everything else that is going on. This is polarising, there is no room for subtlety. Arising directly from this is a frustration that is felt by many at being unable to express their preferences at the ballot box directly. People rebel against this impossibility by adopting more extreme views than would otherwise be the case.
    But the situation is radically changed under DD because a lot more fine detail can be debated and balloted. A crude yes/no to immigration is not the only question that can be balloted. People are not blind to this and consistently reject blanket immigration bans, preferring instead more sophisticated approaches. The positive effects of open debate that precedes the ballot also must not be underestimated.
    I think the effects of media bias can be profound, but not in the way you suggest. People in the main appear to be very resilient to openly displayed bias in favour or against a position (a fact noted by Chomsky amongst others). The far more dangerous type is the bias by omission of views or topics from discussion altogether. This is how the incredibly unfair status quo is really maintained – land property a sacred ‘right’, money supply in private hands OK, no democracy in the workplace ‘good for business’, UK government ‘democratic’… So long as these things are not questioned prominently, they remain ‘true’. This is another discussion, but for now I just wanted to say that probably the papers exploit the polarisation on the immigration issue rather than create it in the first place. Whatever sells more copies, without upsetting the sponsors, right? To analyse further, some of the elite structures will be very much in favour of immigration – those benefiting from cheap labour, those benefiting from increased demand for housing and services, those benefiting from increased demand for money supply. Undoubtedly some policy-makers will be hoping that immigration will prove at least a partial solution to the problems of aging population and public pension liabilities. None of these people will feel threatened by immigration in their exclusive neighbourhoods and in their places of work.
    Finally, some satisfying mental imagery – for every misguided Ayn Rand preaching right-wing person there would be a misguided left-utopian person and together they would cancel each other out at the ballot box. Given the chance, the people of the UK as a whole, in their collective wisdom, would continue the unbroken record of conservative (small ‘c’) voting patterns as evident in other places around the world where democracy has already advanced beyond the purely representative.

  109. Thanks evgueni. My purpose in referencing our discussion wasn’t to attack DD, or you, but to put it to Alfred that the ‘majority views’ of which he speaks are influenced by propaganda, and accordingly he cannot claim that they have been arrived at entirely democratically. That important point still stands regardless of how the deliberate or accidental biases are injected.
    Your view that DD would be a much more subtle mechanism for espousing ones views democratically makes complete sense, I agree.
    I concur also on the dangers of bias by omission, a powerful source of confounding the ideal of providing a perfect set of information by which the electorate can form their views. But I struggle to agree with the suggestion that people in the main are resilient to (say) newspaper editorials, which can either confirm an already selfish-world view, or lead one to it (depending on one’s character). Today the Sun has a leader on supporting Osbourne’s “getting the economy back on track” which of course is right-wing for “carry on cutting”. For the Sun’s target socio-economic and class readership to support that, which in varying amounts I think they would do, demonstrates the extent to which the corporate media deliberately uses false consciousness to achieve its political aims.
    Still, I am open to challenge on it – I realise I haven’t provided a source for what I believe. Would you happen to know of any items of research that look into this sort of thing?
    Anyway, I don’t want any of this valuable discussion to distract from the fact that Alfred has not yet replied. I still eagerly await his response to my questions!

  110. Jon,
    I was not reflexively jumping to the defence of DD. I thought this was a chance to continue our earlier discussion without appearing too off-topic :)
    My point about ineffectiveness of open bias in the media was in part from personal experience of living in the USSR. Most people had a healthy distrust of the Soviet press and TV/radio broadcast stations. People talked amongst themselves. The other reason for doubting the effectiveness of propaganda is a consistent theme in Chomsky’s writing where he contrasts the results of public opinion polls in the USA with the predominant message in the US media on specific points of foreign and domestic policy. The US public appears to be consistently and overwhelmingly anti-war, for a two-state solution in Palestine, for universal medical care etc. This despite the propaganda.. Sorry I cannot give a more specific reference than that right now.

  111. Mary,
    Here’s one “seriously disturbed” American:
    “Glenn Beck in firing line after comparing Norway shooting victims to Hitler Youth”

  112. Ah, yes – I’d read somewhere (similarly, no reference) that the ordinary person’s view in the USSR was that the press cannot be trusted. I sense that that feeling was much stronger given the overt media control than it is here, where the control is a bit more subtle and much more indirect.
    Yes, you’re right on Chomsky, and Michael Moore says much the same: the two business parties are consistently offering politics well to the Right of the views of ordinary Americans. Good point.

  113. This turned up on NRK a few hours ago

    Roughly, this article says that the police are now looking for a man in his 30s with alleged links to a bikers’ gang called Bandidos.
    A man in his early 20s has already presented himself to the police, but denies any guilt.
    Police now fear retaliatory action from the criminal circles to which the murdered 27-year-old belonged.
    The report is cited as coming from the Stavanger evening paper.

  114. Jalaluddin Morris

    28 Jul, 2011 - 5:36 pm

    Now let’s put things in perspective: : The 2011 Norway attacks were two sequential terrorist attacks against the civilian population, the government, and a political summer camp in Norway on 22 July 2011. : “Another vehicle used by Breivik to reach the island following the bombing, was meanwhile registered as having passed a road toll the next day.” : New Norway violence critically injures 1 (Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:40PM GMT)
    “Reports say two men in military fatigues knocked on his door, broke into the house and carried out the shooting. Police are looking for the two suspects.”

  115. Daniel Rodger

    29 Jul, 2011 - 8:01 pm

    [Mod/jon: off-topic, deleted]


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