Not Forgetting the al-Hillis

by craig on September 28, 2012 5:03 pm in Uncategorized

The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.

Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:

the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.

Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.

There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.

But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.

The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?

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  1. Interesting in regards to MH370

    You neither need suicidal pilots nor do you need terrorists on board for taking over an airplane that uses fly by wire systems like it is the 777.

  2. @katie: “If it was taken by the Americans, it will be at Diego Garcia, relieved of its cargo & will shortly show up in pieces somewhere in the Indian ocean.”

    It’s position to be triumphantly discovered by same. Wait for it. And James Cameron is already underway to the site with a submersible and Ultra High Def camera. Slowly, we approach the cockpit windows revealing party girls, vodka bottles and the remnants of evil tobacco cigarettes all floating eerily in the water.

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  4. Yes I did see someone post a Tweet on that find BB.

    It’s a pity RR cannot speak freely during the investigation as they are the only ones who would know the plane had landed & got airborne again, but they are gagged.

    No matter if the plane is re-flagged the engines usually send data every 30 mins apparently,.

    Their reaction when the time comes will be crucial.

  5. @NR: I’ll stick with Tom Clancy, because of the sinking submarine caught on radar that everyone thought was the Red October, but which was not. Doppelganger submarine radar signatures, doppelganger airline radar signatures?

    I once worked in a place that had a street number “666”, but all that happened was that crazy people came in monthly on the day of the full moon and claimed that everyone in the building worked for the devil. Annoying, but not very exciting, really.

    BTW, isn’t the typical ploy in subterfuge (aka what happened to Gareth Williams) character assassination?

  6. Now the blonde in the MH370 story is not South African, either. She “lived in South Africa at the time” and “was returning from a vacation”:

    How hard can it be for this blonde to decide on a country of origin, or a nationality? It’s beginning to sound like she’s a citizen of Fantasy Island. I’m wondering if her connection to Melbourne is kind of like Ben Zygier’s connection to Melbourne.

  7. “I have no reason to make something like this up. It’s not malicious at all,,” she said. “I wouldn’t want to make something up that would potentially hurt people.”

    So ironic, considering her lack of knowledge about where she’s from.

  8. Q 16 Mar, 2014 – 5:19 pm
    “Now the blonde in the MH370 story is not South African, either. She “lived in South Africa at the time” and “was returning from a vacation”.

    Interesting that at least in the CNN story neither of the girls’ age is given, either now or at the time of the incident in 2011. They’re only described as teens.

    Closest I could find in a cursory search was: “Jonti Roos, who is who is currently living in Melbourne during a year-long stay in Australia … The pretty Australian, attended Hoërskool Kempton Park in Kempton Park, Gauteng, graduating in 2010 and also the University of Pretoria in Pretoria, Eastern Cape, South Africa.”

  9. The SETUP for the MEDIA follows that already existing movie script. Of course the truth is different but i bet that they will present that to the general public as their truth:

    As the story of MH370 unfolds, becoming more mysterious by the day, I keep being reminded of a thriller I read four years ago. Bolt Action, a novel by Charlie Charters, is set on board exactly the same plane – not just a Boeing 777, but a 777-200ER. In addition, the plane belongs to the national carrier of a Muslim state, though in Bolt Action’s case it’s Pakistan not Malaysia.The thriller poses the question: What if a plane is hijacked but no one can regain control because the cockpit door is locked? Since 9/11 all passenger jets have bolt armatures fitted to the cockpit door (the Bolt Action reference in the title). The door remains locked during flight and it’s virtually impossible for anyone to get into the cockpit unless the pilot or co-pilot chooses to open it. The locked door is designed to withstand a hand grenade being detonated right outside, a 9mm clip being fired into it at point blank range – even an axe attack. In Bolt Action, the terrorist is a member of the cabin crew, which allows him to access the cockpit where he poisons the pilot and co-pilot, and then bolts the door. The flight in question is from Manchester to New York, but the hijacker has no intention of landing the plane. Rather, his aim is to force the US Air Force to shoot the plane down, martyring everyone on board and advancing the cause of global jihad. The main action of the novel concerns the efforts of Tristie Merritt, an ex-special forces soldier, to get into the cockpit.

  10. Bluebird
    16 Mar, 2014 – 8:01 pm again and again we see the line between literary creativity and practical application fudged or replicated. It’s almost as if spooks have no imagination of their own or need to revert to classical or fictional iconography to provide a sort of emotional crutch.

    The reality (!) today is that there is none. We are wholly dependent on an electronic “reality” that the majority accept at face value without challenge. Subterfuge has been employed from earliest times. It is the lesson of the Trojan Horse. The problem is that it is today far more sophisticated. The message comes to us via a medium over which we have no control. Both event, its replication and transmission are all subject to manipulation and only detailed examination may give rise to doubt that what is presented is accurate.

    Take for example the 1969 moon landing. There is good reason to believe it took place. For example the film taken through the landing craft window appears to accurately reflect the topography of the moon surface. However by the same token, I have been persuaded there was a parallel studio mock-up by the mere fact of variation of shadows that could ONLY be produced by a studio light and COULD NOT have been produced by sunlight. This but only one of the tell-tale signs.

    There is a two way street in America between the creative arts and dark arts. Sometimes the former takes from the latter and vice versa. It was a feature of Chevaline you will remember, all the main “actors” reading from the same “script” that the scene replicated a cop show.

    Even the 9/11 planes cannot be guaranteed to be as the video appears when tested against scientific constants. How can the visual of an aluminium nose-cone of a plane re-emerging through the opposite side of the south tower having apparently passed through a network of steel beams thicker than armour plating be possible? Simply put it defies all logic and physics. What we see must be a lie. If a lie the image must have been modified.

    Once we accept all the other lies, it is not a difficult concept to accept. Once we have accepted the principle that the US Government lies, it is much harder not to be sceptical regarding anything put out about significant events such as MH370.

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  12. Inquiring Minds has this plus. Could be something in it.

    “UPDATE: Exact logic sequence for proving the U.S. air force hijacked the Malaysian airlines flight.

    1. Absent an awacs type system which can precisely monitor a received signal and spoof a return signal (or phase cancel it) you cannot disappear a non stealth aluminum skinned plane from ANY radar system. After vanishing from civilian radars, it remained on military radars that would work better against AWACS. That pretty much says it all.

    2. Iran is an ally of Russia. Russia has Awacs type systems, but would not try to frame up Iran in a terror plot with a fake passport story supported by idiotically faked photos. Russia did not do this.

    3. China and Malaysia also have Awacs type systems. Since it was a Malaysian plane flying with Chinese engineers, it is safe to rationalize out that neither China nor Malaysia did this.

    4. Though the engineers on the plane also worked with stealth technologies such as Awacs, it takes a huge UFO shaped antenna to make such systems work, and Malaysian passenger jets do not have them as a standard feature. This was not a stunt played by Freescale Semiconductors.

    5. Israel wants war with Iran, and the CIA hatching a terror plot with horribly faked photos stands in the evidence pool against the U.S. air force, which is their sex slave.

    6. The obvious motive was military, and a real tie in was the fact that the plane disappeared from civilian radar while at full cruising altitude, but not the military radars. In this case the air force had to choose which radar they would spoof with Awacs (there is extreme difficulty with spoofing more than one system simultaneously unless there is a lucky alignment of signals) and they just hoped the military would not catch on. ONE PROBLEM, the Malaysian military was not as inept as the Air Force thought. PLAN FAILURE.

    7. The Iranian terror plot fits the logic tree well. Since the photos were obviously faked, WHO WOULD DO THAT? WHO WANTS WAR WITH IRAN? No brainer there.

    8. The cell phones are ringing, and the only organization in the world that can say where they are is the NSA. WHY THE SILENCE?”

  13. ….and this from same source

    “So here we have two countries, Malaysia and China, with a top flight electronics engineering firm, Freescale semiconductor, and 20 missing engineers on a vanished plane. I’d say this was probably a military takedown by the United States. And I’d bet the plane was remote hijacked and flown to a runway somewhere. THAT is why the cell phones still ring and you can bet the black op NSA knows exactly where they are. All the modern planes can be taken over via remote, they all have back doors now and the NSA is there only to rape and rob you, they are NOT your friends, you will NOT be told where this plane is.

    The plane vanishing from radar had nothing to do with the plane’s electronics going dead, it most likely had a LOT more to do with an AWACS plane making it vanish from radar and taking it over. AWACS can do that. And if the plane’s electronics went dead that would NOT make it vanish from radar, I don’t know where all the stupidity on this topic evolved, MYLAR BALLOONS HAVE NO ELECTRONICS, AND THEY SHOW UP ON RADAR CLEAR AS DAY. AIRPLANES DO NOT NEED TO HAVE A TRANSPONDER FOR RADAR TO WORK AT ALL. THE TRANSPONDER IS ONLY FOR TELLING GROUND CONTROL THE NAME OF THE AIRPLANE. DEAD ELECTRONICS ON A PLANE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING ON RADAR. if you read an article saying the plane vanished because it’s transponder switched off, run from the writer as fast as your brain can move, that writer is either too stupid to pay attention to or fake.”

  14. This article suggests only the US would have the AWACS capability to interfere with transponders and radar. It appears that the plane never did “disappear” as first announced to the NE of its departure point. Also that there are at least FOUR distinct phases of identification.

    * The first when normal communication was maintained by pilot and transponder until both ceased;
    * The second as it was plotted by civil and military radar for perhaps an hour after “disappearing”
    * the third for perhaps a further three or four hours tracked by at least Malaysian MILITARY radar
    * a further period, probably until aircraft crashed or landed identified by satellite AND more importantly by Boeing/RollsRoyce in relation to automatic engine/flight data. This might have been overlooked the ex-NSA man claims and has given the game away.

    All these phases that must have been known by the Malaysian authorities from the beginning, proves deception from the beginning for what ever reason.

    The ex-NSA source above suggests two or three possible motives for the operation:

    1. interception of the plane to prevent China obtaining critical information/technical assistance from the teams of (defence/computer)
    experts or other material on board;

    2. to build a case of terrorist hi-jack implicating most likely Iran, which if linked to either a crash or other outrage, would influence public opinion against Iran and in support of military attack;

    3. to create increased tension in the region particularly between China and Malaysia.

    He suggests this was a plan hatched between America and Israel to rachet up the Iran stakes. The hijacker individuals photographed as per 9/11 with photo-shopped inter-changeable legs!!! and the Australian/SAfrican/Israeli women and targetting of the pilot and co pilot shouts CIA?Mossad standard implicating balls-up.

    The fact that RR is involved, doing very nicely at the moment thank you, complicates things. Does it play a straight bat or not. Where does BOEING stand? Who is twisting who’s arms and what pressure is being brought to bear to toe the line. Does Britain go along with it or call it a day of supporting big brother Sam and little cousin Abraham particularly after the recent “very successful” Cameron trip. And in the light of MH370 how much is Britain in the know or implicated in the Israeli plans for Iran?

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  16. Has anyone considered asking this team of experts for help in finding MH370? Some of them worked for Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd., or SSTL.

  17. Let the smears begin. The geezer spooks and their media friends can’t get their minds out of the mid-20th-century. Don’t they risk alienating the LGBT community, important in the propaganda war against Putin?

    “Capt Zaharie has “liked” videos by Ibrahim posted on YouTube. Ibrahim was sentenced to five years in jail on gay sex charges on March 7, provoking widescale condemnation across the country.”

    “Capt Zaharie was a keen supporter of Malaysia’s pro-democracy opposition party, whose leader Anwar Ibrahim was sentenced, again, last week to five years in prison on sodomy charges.”

    “Zaharie Ahmad Shah, a father-of-three, was said to be a ‘fanatical’ supporter of the country’s opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim – jailed for homosexuality just hours before the jet disappeared.”

    “Britain’s Daily Mail on Sunday, citing police sources, reported that Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah, 53, was an “obsessive” supporter of Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim, who was sentenced to five years in prison on a charge of sodomy just hours before the Malaysia Airlines plane took off.”

    “Internet posts by Shah, 53, revealed he is an admirer of Ibrahim, a People’s Justice Party leader who was sentenced to five years in prison on sodomy charges that supporters call bogus shortly before the March 8 flight.”

    No further info found on the “teens” Jonti Roos and Jaan Maree, the allegedly Australian citizens living in South Africa.

  18. “In fact, almost no country anywhere uses the lightning fast, easily accessed Interpol database of stolen and fake passports. The US does, and the UK and the United Arab Emirates and … er, no one. It is a huge security hole for terrorists, and a seriously friendly helping hand to human traffickers.”

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  20. @Kenneth Sorensen 16 Mar, 2014 – 9:49 am
    No MSM or even conspiracy pages have suggested the aircraft surreptitiously took on additional fuel in Kuala Lumpur as you reasonably proposed. Everyone is assuming the outer search limits based upon fuel to Beijing, plus an hour or two.

    Another possibility is the plane landed somewhere and refueled. On Friday, two pilots who flew 777s said the shortest runway for landing was 3000-3300 feet, longer for takeoff depending on load. Sunday, the consensus of all TV experts shifted to 5000+ feet for landing. Why the change?

  21. I agree NR, besmirch a character & make him a patsy, they tried it with Zaid.

    Also what happened to the, ‘mumbled message’, ?
    This morning it’s reported that the pilot said ‘all right goodnight’ in a ‘clear calm way ‘ !

    Thanks for the link Tim, although I’m not that technical, it says exactly what I thought was so obvious.
    This story is bent & changed daily just like the Chevaline story.

    This may seem unrelated, but it could add credence to the official story they are trying to weave.

  22. NR

    The minimum length of the runway depends on the weight of the plane both for takeoff and for landing. We dont know its weight because no journalist was clever enough to ask for freight/cargo and for amount of fuel in any of the many press conferences so far. D-notice?

    This is a carbon copy of the chevaline press releases.
    The pilot is the gov ranting muslim character and tech freak like SAH who was such a nice guy to his friends, just like SAH, while all passengers are the poor victims (like SM).
    And then you simply release confusing and wrong messages to the media bit by bit everyday, in order to move their story into an already previously scripted direction.
    Once there is a contradiction and somebody is going to question that contradiction publicly, then their script is going to be updated as if they never had said the opposite.


    First ever cyber hijack!

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  24. @Bluebird
    Israel is unsynchronized with US Bottom-of-Indian-Ocean story and believes plane was hijacked and hidden.

    Or — Israel hijacked and hid plane, will stage an attack on Israel, shoot down, blame Iran, retaliate.

    Or — Flat Earthers finally proved correct and plane fell off edge of the world.

  25. FAA warning 5 months ago regarding cyber hijacking of 777-200.
    What a coincidence! Just another coincidence.–300-and–300er-series-airplanes-aircraft-electronic-system

    On August 21, 2012, Boeing applied for permission to change the equipment to be installed as part of an onboard data network system upgrade on the 777 series of planes.According to information listed in the Federal Register the existing “data network and design integration may result in security vulnerabilities from intentional or unintentional corruption of data and systems critical to the safety and maintenance of the airplane.”The bottom line, according to language in the Federal Register, “The integrated network configurations in the Boeing Model 777-200, -300, and -300ER series airplanes may enable increased connectivity with external network sources 

    This may enable the exploitation of network security vulnerabilities and increased risks potentially resulting in unsafe conditions for the airplanes and occupants.”

    ADB-S and ACAR are among systems on the plane that authorities have acknowledged were possibly compromised in some way.

  26. @katie 17 Mar, 2014 – 8:36 am
    “I agree NR, besmirch a character & make him a patsy, they tried it with Zaid. Also what happened to the, ‘mumbled message’, ?
    This morning it’s reported that the pilot said ‘all right goodnight’ in a ‘clear calm way ‘ !”

    I recall the mumbled message was reported by another pilot who had been asked by Vietnamese Air Traffic Control to try and contact MH370. There’s been no further reporting on that.

  27. Yes it was, thanks for the reminder,NR.

    There’s also no mention of Diego Garcia with all its communication system it had to pick up signals….if innocent,no journalists are asking about the last ping from plane lining up perfectly with that base .

  28. BB.

    I think you said that you had little confidence in the EUtimes as a source,but can ‘all’ this be wrong ?

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  30. An apparent expert speaks: (worth reading)

    “Roger Harris erniebastion • an hour ago
    You are correct — it is referred to as TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness). At 35,000 feet one has about 30-60 seconds; at 40,000 feet it’s reduced to 15-20 seconds; at FL450 it is further reduced to 9-15 seconds (of course, several factors may vary TUC – BMI, alcohol consumption, etc.) The service ceiling for the 777 is 43,100′ — I believe it was stated the aircraft had 7 1/2 hours of fuel so therefore it was light and could have most likely reached its service ceiling. Limitations are based upon the ability to pressurize the cabin. Certification restrictions imposed by the FAA require the bird to reach a safe altitude after initiating an emergency descent from service ceiling within (I believe) two minutes. Of course, whoever was flying the bird wasn’t concerned about regs/restrictions — I’m sure they incapacitated the pax/crew and headed home for high altitude to get max range. Hey, I don’t know I’m just a Gulfstream 550 driver and my last job for 18 months was out of Hong Kong where I flew in the region extensively (and the 550 is certified to FL510) – there has been so much misinformation and disinformation, I’m still scratching my head on this one but with as much power as the Rolls Royce Trent has, it probably could have reached 45,000.”

    From NR’s reference.

    Agreed NR
    17 Mar, 2014 – 6:09 am there is a concerted and organised demolition job going on aimed at the pilot. Such things NEVER happen accidentally and shame on the spooky, reprehensible, slime-ball perpetrators, whoever they are, who are prepared to stoop so low (never mind the fate of the 200 plus passengers and their families!)

  31. Re. Katie’s ref. worth reading as follows:

    “According to this report, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (also marketed as China Southern Airlines flight 748 through a codeshare) was a scheduled passenger flight from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, to Beijing, China, when on 8 March this Boeing 777-200ER aircraft “disappeared” in flight with 227 passengers on board from 15 countries, most of whom were Chinese, and 12 crew members.
    As we had previously noted in our report “Russia “Puzzled” Over Malaysia Airlines “Capture” By US Navy,” the GRU had previously notified China’s Ministry of State Security (MSS) of its suspicions regarding this flight due its containing a “highly suspicious” cargo that had been offloaded in the Republic of Seychelles from the US-flagged container ship MV Maersk Alabama.
    First arousing the GRU’s concerns regarding this “highly suspicious” cargo, this report continues, was that after its unloading from the MV Maersk Alabama on 17 February, its then transfer to Seychelles International Airport where it was loaded on an Emirates flight bound for Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Malaysia, after first stopping over in Dubai, the two highly trained US Navy SEALS who were guarding it were found dead.

    The two US Navy SEALS protecting this “highly suspicious” cargo, Mark Daniel Kennedy, 43, and Jeffrey Keith Reynolds, 44, were found dead under “suspicious circumstances” aboard the MV Maersk Alabama, this report says, further raising Russian intelligence suspicions as they were both employed by the Virginia Beach, Virginia-based maritime security firm The Trident Group which was founded by US Navy Special Operations Personnel (SEAL’s) and Senior US Naval Surface Warfare Officers and has long been known by the GRU to protect vital transfers of both atomic and biological materials throughout the world.
    Upon Flight 370’s departure from Malaysia on 8 March, this report continues, the GRU was notified by the MSS that they were going to divert it from its scheduled destination of Beijing to Haikou Meilan International Airport (HAK) located in Hainan Province (aka Hainan Island).
    Prior to this planes entering into People Liberation Army (PLA) protected zones of the South China Sea known as the Spratly Islands, however, this report continues, Flight 370 “significantly deviated” from its flight course and was tracked by VKO satellites and radar flying into the Indian Ocean region and completing its nearly 3,447 kilometer (2,142 miles) flight to Diego Garcia.
    In a confirmation of the GRU’s assertion that Flight 370 was, indeed, flown to Diego Garcia, this report says, satellite transmission data analyzed by US investigators showed that this planes most likely last-known position was in a zone about 1,609 kilometers (1,000 miles) west of Perth, Australia in the Indian Ocean..

    Most troubling to the GRU about Flight 370’s “diversion” to Diego Garcia, this report says, was that it was “nearly immediately” followed by some of the top disease scientists and experts from the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CCDCP) embarking to Diego Garcia on at least four flights.
    As to why both American and Chinese disease experts were taken to Diego Garcia where Flight 370 is now known to be, this report says, has as yet not been answered by either of these governments after repeated Foreign Ministry requests for “explanations and clarification.”
    What is to be known, this report says, is that as Malaysia has been forced to admit Flight 370 was, indeed, “diverted” from its flight path as the GRU had previously reported, and as at least 25 nations are now involved in searching for it, it remains a mystery as to what is actually occurring.
    Also known, this report concludes, is that Diego Garcia as a designated ETOPS emergency landing site for flight planning purposes of commercial airliners transversing the Indian Ocean, and as one of 33 emergency landing sites worldwide for the NASA Space Shuttle, it is “inconceivable” that any type of aircraft, let alone Flight 370, can fly anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere without being tracked, monitored and recorded in totality.”

    We should be aware that this is a joint Russian Chinese interpretation. Yet the details are there and seem to be supported by the twin deaths story. If true this appears to be shaping up to a biological warfare scenario. If organised by US/Israel the only likely scenario is a devastating raid blamed on Iran.

    Note the death of the two men in their 40’s has been blamed on “respiratory failure” linked to heroin abuse. Apart from the unlikelihood of both dying same time from same cause, we see again two of previously discussed propaganda features. First demolish men’s reputation then mix in a bit of star quality, Oscar nominated, Hollywood.

  32. If the plane had biological weaponry on board and heading for Beijing – and intended to be diverted by MSS because of their suspicions – then if a plan to create mayhem in China blamed on Muslim faction already blamed for knife massacre had been busted – and America therefore aborted operation and took plane to Diego Garcia !!!!! its got a certain amount of credibility to it.

  33. @NR: The “jaunty ruse” is just that.

  34. @NR 6:09 am: Another commonality with the Chevaline case: SAH was said to have become radicalized on the internet! We must take their word for it. Another commonality with Gareth Williams: the tawdry gay sex angle (and earlier said-to-be interest in bondage by one of the pilots)! Always best if the geezers can put both into one story, which they apparently weren’t able to do for the purpose of credibility in Chevaline. They somehow find it odd that anyone would support pro-democracy causes. They aren’t aware that gay marriage is legal in many democratic countries. The shock of it all!

    The ever-more-buxom Jonti Roos, who becomes buxomer on her FB account, was a teen from South Africa, living in Australia, or an Australian living in South Africa, or someone from/living in Ben Zygier’s hometown of Melbourne. We aren’t sure. We only know that her photographs get buxomer and buxomer over time, especially the one on Facebook. She manages to have virtually no internet profile other than her Facebook account, although most people her age — whatever that is — have an extensive internet footprint. How would we expect geezers to know this? Obviously an oversight.

  35. @Katie 8:36 am: Earlier on, the pilot’s final words were said to be, “Roger that.” Then it was changed. Why the change?

    Remember that disinformation always contains an element of the truth. The difficult part is sorting wheat from chaff and determining who wants what to be known, and why.

    @Bluebird: 9:58 a.m.: Perhaps we shall be told that it all happened like the movie plot I posted yesterday. Geezers are lazy. Why waste a bad movie plot, with poison darts, etc.? Very Austin Powers, baby, right down to the Fembots. Perhaps they will choose the Captain Phillips angle, with all the passengers on the plane being held hostage for a large sum of money, or something even more diabolical, like a country, or part of a country.

    All we know is that very few members of the public are believing the detritus that is being spoon-fed as reality on this one.

    To no one in particular: The South Africa angle makes a person wonder what all those world leaders really were doing at Nelson Mandela’s funeral, aside from taking selfies and looking like they were having a great old time. It never did make sense that a frail man in his 90s could come close to death in June, then hang onto life for many more months. He was extraordinary, but he was a man. There are limits to the power of one.

  36. Another commonality: Chevaline and Trident names.

  37. Very interesting theory by aviation entusiast Keith Ledgerwood. From The Telegraph’s live coverage:

    12.42 Did MH 370 switch off its radar, then “shadow” another plane – flying from Singapore to Barcelona – and land north of India or in Afghanistan?

    It sounds crazy, but Keith Ledgerwood, an aviation enthusiast, has produced these charts.

    Opinion It became apparent as I inspected SIA68’s flight path history that MH370 had maneuvered itself directly behind SIA68 at approximately 17:00UTC and over the next 15 minutes had been following SIA68. All the pieces of my theory had been fitting together with the facts that have been publically released and I began to feel a little uneasy.

  38. Keith Ledgerwood, Money quotation:

    It is my belief that MH370 likely flew in the shadow of SIA68 through India and Afghanistan airspace. As MH370 was flying “dark” without transponder / ADS-B output, SIA68 would have had no knowledge that MH370 was anywhere around and as it entered Indian airspace, it would have shown up as one single blip on the radar with only the transponder information of SIA68 lighting up ATC and military radar screens.

    Wouldn’t the SIA68 flight have detected MH370? NO! The Boeing 777 utilizes a TCAS system for traffic avoidance; the system would ordinarily provide alerts and visualization to pilots if another airplane was too close. However that system only operates by receiving the transponder information from other planes and displaying it for the pilot. If MH370 was flying without the transponder, it would have been invisible to SIA68.

    In addition, the TCAS system onboard MH370 would have enabled the pilot(s) to easily locate and approach SIA68 over the Straits of Malacca as they appeared to have done. The system would have shown them the flight’s direction of travel and the altitude it was traveling which would have enabled them to perfectly time an intercept right behind the other Boeing 777. Here is a picture of a TCAS system onboard a 777.

  39. Much recommended.

    Swissair 111 The Untold Story

    Passenger list:

    How many Bandar al Saud does the House of Saud have? I believe that Bandar Bush is still alive? Was he on that plane’s passenger list or did he setup a representative into that plane early enough?

    MI6 agent should have been on that plane, too.

    Lots of UN people travelling from NY to Geneva on board.
    Plus $ 500 million of gold and diamonds plus a picasso in the cargo of SR111. Of course the valuables were never seen ever again.

  40. @ Tim V 17 Mar, 2014 – 12:52 pm

    So we have junkies guarding the most dangerous nuclear and biological cargoes? They’d be nodding off every few hours. As highly paid ex-military contractors they could certainly afford unlimited heroin. Better to use coke/meth addicts who stay awake for 2 or 3 days, and are paranoid as well.

    Incidentally, before release of the movie “Captain Phillips” members of his crew held a press conference protesting the film, claiming he was anything but a hero. Noted briefly by media and quickly forgotten as the story would interfere with profits of movie studios owned by same conglomerates.

  41. Craig dismissed Ledgerwoods theory earlier today, saying such large jets can’t fly close enough [due to turbulence] as to look like one single blip on a radar screen

  42. I don’t believe we have discussed this story yet:

    Change of course, pilots blamed (partying in the cockpit?), and a crash into a volcano. Pilots were said to have been chatting up the passengers at the time of the crash, and were unaware that they were close to the volcano.

    Any special promotional flights at the time of the “jaunty ruse”…whenever that might have been? We see no in-flight photos, nor illicit passengers seated in the flight deck, nor smoking, just photos of pilots with passengers.

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  44. Maersk suspended its operations to and from Iran in September 2012:

  45. Odd that with the Maersk’s Alabama’s past history related to piracy, the former navy SEALS from Trident would meet their end in the Seychelles:

  46. More:

    The unfortunate history of drones being flown out of a civilian airport. For some reason, the royals have cropped up in this story, too.

  47. @Katie: You’re the only one to mention the mumbled message.

    From today’s Guardian headline: “‘co-pilot spoke last message’ Fariq Abdul Hamid believed to have uttered last words [“All right, goodnight”] to air traffic control at 1.19am, when plane’s transponder stopped.”

    Which conflicts with earlier stories, and no one else points this out. Like Chevaline.

    March 7, 2014, 6:01 p.m. China’s official New China News Agency… said the plane’s last known contact was with Vietnamese air traffic control, and the pilots had not been in touch with Chinese air traffic control.,0,4170115.story

    Published on Mar 09, 2014 8:43 PM: “The Boeing 777 captain, who asked to not be named, said he was flying 30 minutes ahead of the missing aircraft, and was asked to use his plane’s emergency frequency to contact MH370 by Vietnamese air traffic control officials who wanted to establish its location.”

    “The pilot, whose plane was bound for Narita, Japan, told Malaysia’s New Sunday Times: “We managed to establish contact with MH370 just after 1.30am and asked them if they have transferred into Vietnamese airspace.””

    “The voice on the other side could have been either Captain Zaharie or Fariq, but I was sure it was the co-pilot…”

    “There were a lot of interference… static… but I heard mumbling from the other end… That was the last time we heard from them, as we lost the connection.”

  48. Good work ,NR.

    How extraordinary is that & this ; “Those on the same frequency at the time, including vessels on the waters below, would have heard the exchange, he said.”

    Surely proof positive everyone is being sold a pup !

    Why were no jets scrambled ?

    Good to see you running with those links,Tim, there’s so much of this swilling around the net I’m astonished at SKY & other stations are still churning out the same news which is a week old.

    I love the latest, that the plane dropped as low as 5,000ft to avoid radar detection, ha ha…..this to fly over the mountainous region of Pakistan !!!

    Yet the clue is there, that flying that low is usually done by the ‘military’.

  49. Another snippet, BB will find this interesting:

    “Iranian teenager Pouria Nourmohammadi who boarded the missing Malaysian Airlines flight 370 with a stolen passport has a Facebook page. Pouria Nour Mohammadi, 19, and Reza Devalar, 29, both from Iran, used stolen passports to travel from Malaysia to Beijing and then Amsterdam.”


    “Stolen passports carried by two Iranian men to board missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 were used last year by two people applying for visas to work as entertainers in China, according to the head of an entertainment company.”

    Make sure you read the comments.

  50. NR
    17 Mar, 2014 – 3:16 pm Quite! BBC news reports after it went off air it remained “pinging” satnav for a further SEVEN HOURS till 8.11 (except the PM said it was 8.21) Hell wots 10 minutes between friends as we heard quoted at Chevaline. But of course 7 hrs difference is not so easily dismissed (between original crash time and this one. Then there is you ref to the bod who says the radar puts the plane off Vietnam being followed by another before it disappears. Both stories can’t be right.

  51. thanks for those references ppl. My poor take on the event up to the time of writing at if anyone interested.

  52. @Bluebird: If you haven’t seen it, this is from another Craig Murray discussion.
    “kashmiri 17 Mar, 2014 – 10:22 am”
    “There is a word going on among commercial pilots that the plane carried a cargo of 10 metric tons of gold. A Polish airline pilot gave a press interview a few days back and confirmed that this is what pilots are hearing informally. He also said the procedures are such that the pilot learns about the cargo only when signing off at the point of departure, so planning ahead would be very tricky without the involvement of someone above.”

    “In this context, some people point towards the Malaysian transport minister who issued contradictory statements which were in odds with those being issued by Malaysian army and police and seemed to direct the investigations in the wrong direction. That’s of course only speculation. But engine failure, terrorism and planned suicide can already be safely ruled out IMHO.”

    Most of the MSM are now using as their leading pics two which make the pilot and co-pilot especially unattractive, deranged or sinister, when there are many others from which to chose. Recall the Zimmerman/Martin affair, where they persisted in using a photo of a much younger and cuter Trayvon contrasted with a sinister George?

  53. @Bluebird: Another valuable cargo is heroin, something not much mentioned. It’s value is approx. $175,000 per kilo (from the DEA price book – likely exaggerated) while gold is only $40,000 per kilo.

  54. O, NR – don’t get us started with DEA and Heroin and The Zionist Criminal Network . It brings memories of the Israeli art students which prior to 9/11 was trying to infiltrate DEA’s offices, as well Bollyn’s thesis [Chapter II (page 47 in the downloadable PDF) that Zionists long have been engaged in Drug trafficking from South America, and he even launches the controversial theory that concerns for drugs was the reason for the occupation of afghanistan, since Taliban had banned all growing of Opium. It is also well known — and somethinmg that previosly have been discussed on here — that Zionists control the international trade in ecstasy, which is doing so much damage to our young kids.

  55. It’s a very good expression that Bollyn has found – The Zionist Criminal Network. It is something they don’t like, because it equates Zionism with Criminality. It is powerful propaganda, which we can employ to tease Israelis, with the ultimate aim of one sunny day getting this Criminal state shut down. And it will be shut down due to the crimes that its leaders have committed,- and it calls itself a democracy, which means that its people, who have elected them, are complicit too.

    Until it is shut down, we will tease its inhabitants with this reference, and everytime we come across them we will make them understand in no uncertain terms that they are unwanted in the company of all honest men and women.

  56. Tim V
    17 Mar, 2014 – 10:52 pm

    There’s the rub Tim, because the pinging does NOT mean the plane was in the air.
    It’s now established that the pinging will continue for as long as the plane has power, that means auxiliary power on the ground too.
    Flying time ‘could’ have been two hours to DG after they turned, the middle hours on the ground & then the plane airborne again?

    Instead of looking at the wider circle I’m thinking of something closer, once cargo had been unloaded OR something/one taken aboard, are the rendition flights finished,there were many & the CIA were/are very active in that area ?

    They could also have gone a lot further if they picked up more fuel at DG….I believe the pinging would stop when flying over large expanse of sea.

    Take a look here & see the closer flying times from DG, particularly Bangladesh.

    Remember the US are still trying to add drones to their base at DG.

  57. Bollyn thinks that Israel is directly implicated in 9/11. While this is fascinating,- and certainly welcome as a contrast to how the mainstream media portarys the situation – and many of his carefully researched information relating to Israelis in the aircraft business in the US and the like is ceratinly interesting in itself,- I’ve never been prepared to go that far.

    I think Israel’s intelligence services knew what was going to happen, and one can discuss if its not a criminality that they did not inform the US authorities. From Israel’s perspective it was enormously important to get the US directly involved in fighting its enemies, and it has since 9/11 gained ‘a new lease of life’, thriving and spinning money and businesses in providing info about all sorts of radical islamists to all the worlds intelligence services, and selling surveillance equipment all over the world.

    A country which always have considered itself to be in a state of war is undoubtedly prepared to go to great lenght, also lenght that people like us living in peace are not prepared to consider. But I still hesitate to go along with the notion that they would actually kill 3,000 people on 9/11 to achieve their aim of getting practically the whole world to join its fight, and in this way get a new lease of life.

    But lets get a fair trial, as used to happen whenever large amounts of people gets killed in a criminality. But we’ve never had that,- and that very suspicious. Bollyn documents how Jewish lawyers, law enforcement officials and judges time and again have shelved any investigation into thoise who knew about what was going to happen. It would be fair to procecute these people, because no matter if Israel had an existential interest in 9/11, it’s not fair to kill close to 3,000 innocents in the process, – not to mentions the hundred of thousands of innocents who hace died in the wake of 9/11 in wars in Afghnaistan in Iraq, and even Palestine and Lebanon, where Israel used the guise of the global “war on terror” — and its new found self confidence .. to clamp down on Palestinians and Lebanese.

  58. Sorensen
    Although i am not really happy with the israel link, i am afraid that i’ll have to agree here.

    Particularly the statement that the stolen passports had been used before for “nightclub dancers” in northern china (translate this with the words “gay male prostitutes”) is another confirmation (for me) that the passports were used by mossad multiple times.

    We know as a matter of fact that mossad was using fabricated EU passports for crimes and we know as a matter of fact that mossad was using prostitutes (both male and female) for crimes, assassinations and espionage before.

    Another warning is blinking when i read israeli newspapers regarding passenger Nikolai Brodskii from Irkutsk.

    Some headlines in israeli news:
    Chabad Jew,
    One of the best reknown good jews in irkutsk.
    Irkutsk Rabbi is crying.
    Brodskii family is a traditional ukrainian jewish family who did so much good for the poor.
    Grandfather built a synagogue in kiev.
    Elite scuba and deep water diver.
    One of the best divers in the world.
    Scuba diving instructor and deep water diving instructor.
    Just returned from a training camp in indonesia/Bali where he had been with 9 fellow divers from the baikal sea (why had they not been on the plane?).

    Then israel media blaming iran for the mh370 plot.

    Now the telegraph pulling the 9/11 script.

    And then the gold.

    Sorensen, here i am 100% with you. This smells like mossad and israel.

  59. One thing i forgot regarding brodskii.

    The website of his diving club had been pulled from the web completely after mh370 went missing. I could find sone old versions in the wayback machine. However, that website did always exist before because there are links of diving club reviews on the web (google) pointing towards exactly his website domain.
    But it was gone after thr crash.

    Now it re-appeared like a ghost with a totally different format and much more professional looks and layout than it had been on the wayback machine before.
    That is making me thinking.
    What did they have to hide from nikolai brodskii’s original diving club website?

  60. @Q: Re Freescale Semiconductors. It’s a rule with almost all companies that key personnel are not allowed to travel together. Not only executives, but hard-to-replace tech people too.

    Here we have some 20 people on the same flight, many of whom are allegedly top engineers.

  61. DM Headline is Daughter Flees Australia. As in a criminal fleeing. “Aishah Zaharie, the missing captain’s daughter, lives in Melbourne and has a graduate degree in architecture from Geelong’s Deakin University.”

    “But Aishah has since returned to her family home in an upmarket Kuala Lumpur suburb, which is just 15 miles from the airport.”

    Yesterday the story was the captain’s family mysteriously moved out of the house the day before the flight. Note another Melbourne connection.

  62. Remember the Zev Barkan Mossad assassin story that was involved in stolen passports in Thailand!

  63. @Katie: “Reports of another pilot contacting MH370 have been discredited.” They don’t explain why.

    “Authorities deny that five other passengers checked in for the flight, but did not board, stating the pax were actually no-shows who never checked in, and that no baggage was loaded for these five pax.”

  64. NR.

    Once again confusion about that;

    “Yes there are issues about passengers that did not fly on the aircraft. There are five of them,” Mr Rahman said.
    “All baggage of passengers not flown on that particular morning was removed from the aircraft.”

  65. It’s amazing what Twitter produces, this date could be significant & the distance is only 460 miles from Diego Garcia;

    ‘Residents of the remote Maldives island of Kuda Huvadhoo in Dhaal Atoll have reported seeing a “low flying jumbo jet” on the morning of the disappearance of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.

    Whilst the disappearance of the Boeing 777 jet, carrying 239 passengers has left the whole world in bewilderment, several residents of Kuda Huvadhoo told Haveeru on Tuesday that they saw a “low flying jumbo jet” at around 6:15am on March 8.’

  66. NR
    Thanks for the daily mail link.

    What i find intriguing in this very emotional and professionally made video (mossad?) is the title song.

    Wizard of Oz

    Girl from Kansas …. you knoe that story, do you?
    Kansas? I remember a chinese family claiming in the early days that the mobile phone of their son was located in kansas ….
    Kansas ….

    I dont trust these videos.

  67. Following the hints given to the media.
    Are we perhaps talking about an OZ experiment here?

    In the field of human-computer interaction, a Wizard of Oz experiment is a research experiment in which subjects interact with a computer system that subjects believe to be autonomous, but which is actually being operated or partially operated by an unseen human being.

    I suggest to consider the mossad links and that video. This is a professionally made video released at the right time.
    I am also intrigued by the melbourne links.
    Everything is fitting together in melbourne.

  68. @Bluebird 8:59 am: Melbourne’s now-famous female “Jaunty Ruse” (perfect name for an Austin Powers/James Bond fembot/girl) could possibly be included in that category. The Ben Zygier saga opened our eyes to what goes on in Melbourne.

    Divers would be handy if a plane crashed into the sea carrying valuable or dangerous cargo.

    Today’s news on the radio was that the U.S. is claiming the pilots reprogrammed the autopilot. Do they mean that the pilots entered coordinates and at some point re-entered new coordinates, or are they blaming the pilots for hacking the computer? Ahem, FADEC systems have a back door. It’s kind of like the diagnostics system on cars, where the mechanic can get into the system but Joe Average driver cannot. Look at what happened with one automotive company:

    There are also such things as electronic warfare planes. Ex-colonel Russell Williams used to fly CC-144 Challengers on electronic warfare and coastal patrol missions. One site accused him of flying such a mission on 9/11, but they had no proof. Recall, if you will, the sex and murder scandal that sent Williams to jail.

    To no one in particular: It is intriguing that the Sukhoi jet that crashed into the volcano in Indonesia also flew lower than it should have, and the pilots were said not to be aware that they were close to a volcano. Russia then accused the U.S. of bringing the plane down to eliminate the competition for commercial airliners in the same size category.

  69. A tale of rendition and the Slovak mafia in the Seychelles:

    According to one comment, the Russian and Chinese mobsters are also doing business there.

  70. I remember reading this story back when we discussed rendition with regard to the Chevaline story:

    Diego Garcia, Seychelles, etc.

    It’s worth noting that Sir Peter Ricketts had a history with Jack Straw. Example seen here:

  71. @PhilPalmer on the Vanishing Plane thread
    17 Mar, 2014 – 11:04 pm

    re: Diego Garcia

    This from today’s Telegraph:

    “12.46 Intriguing new line from The Malay Mail Online.

    Police scouring Capt Shah’s flight simulator – which he installed in his home – have found five Indian Ocean practice runways.

    One is in the Maldives.

    One is on Diego Garcia.

    The other three are in India and Sri Lanka.”

  72. Thanks for this link to the Telegraph, Mochyn. It is very interesting

  73. @Bluebird @Q
    “The Wizard of Oz” also figures big in MK-Ultra programming for mind control — Manchurian Candidates. That leads, of course, to the CIA, old-timey Nazis, Operation Paperclip, and our old friends The Illuminati.

    (Coincidentally Craig’s latest discussion is “The Playing Fields of Eton”. Commentors mention Harvard, Yale and the Illuminati Skull & Bones club with members GW Bush and John Kerry.)

    “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” is also the gay national or international anthem, esp. the original version by Judy Garland, uniting the gay community under the Rainbow Flag.*

    It provides subtle reinforcement for the captain being a militant fanboy of the democratic opposition leader, who as we all know now was convicted by Malaysia only hours before the flight on charges of gay, homosexual sodomy.

    *Anyone know if there’s a theme song for the intelligence community. The pirate community has one but what about the terrorist community.

    On the other hand, “Somewhere Over the Rainbow”, is a nice tune; a favorite family song with no significance?

  74. Judy Garland is Jewish, as is her daughter Liza Minelli. Wizard of Oz is Jewish – (I’ve never understood it, and never bothered to understand it, and has never got a clue why the English speaking world havde been so fascinated about it. When I say: The English speaking world: It is not the ordinary English bloke I’m talking about – but an elite, who are snobbish and has been catering to this “Wizard of Oz” Musical-fiulm, which was groundbraking in many ways, due to the technicality by which it was made, and the technicolor.

  75. Here’s the story Mochyn talked about:

    Cops find five Indian Ocean practice runways in MH370 pilot’s simulator

    KUALA LUMPUR, March 18 ― Investigators have discovered the runways of five airports near the Indian Ocean loaded into Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah’s home-made flight simulator, a Malay daily reported today.

    An unnamed source told Berita Harian that while it was too early to make any conclusions on the new finding, it was still considered an important element in the probe on the whereabouts of the plane and its 239 people.

    “The simulation programmes are based on runways at the Male International Airport in Maldives, an airport owned by the United States (Diego Garcia), and three other runways in India and Sri Lanka, all have runway lengths of 1,000 metres.

    “We are not discounting the possibility that the plane landed on a runway that might not be heavily monitored, in addition to the theories that the plane landed on sea, in the hills, or in an open space,” the source was quoted as saying.

    Although Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein denied yesterday that the plane had landed at US military base Diego Garcia, the source told the daily that this possibility will still be investigated based on the data found in Zaharie’s flight simulator software.
    – See more at:

  76. When people are fascinated with “Wizard of Oz” (Have never seen it and has no clue what its about – but have certain suspicions that it is crafted about commonly felt wishes to find a better world at ‘the end of the rainbow’, and similar trivial stuff) it undoubtely has got something to do with a fascination about finding a better world “atr the end of the rainbow” – which the Jews did find in 1948, when Israel was set up. And this is basically what the film was about. It has basic appeal for everybody wanting to find similar stuff (don’t we all?) But that the Jews found it in 1948 had devastating effects for the Palestinians and indeed for the whole world – which would have been much better off if the Jews instead had stayed in theri respective countries. After all Hitler’s Germany was special, and their was very little reason to assume that anything similar would occur again in its wake.

  77. When I say : “don’t we all [want to find stuff at the end of the rainbow]”, there is (at least) two answers:

    One is – would we at all have given it a thought if Judy Garland wasn’t blowing her lungs inside out about it?

    And 2) What’s all that nonsense about finding this stuff. Only very few succeed in actually finding something – like the Jews in 1948. And look where they are destined.

  78. ‘Asian military officials may be staging a mass cover-up over missing flight MH370, because they do not want to expose gaping holes within their countries’ air defences, a leading aviation expert has suggested.
    The Malaysian Airlines jet went missing 1.30am on Sunday March 9. But it wasn’t until the following Tuesday that the Malaysian Air Force reported they had spotted it on radar over the Strait of Malacca at 2.15am.
    Now Thailand’s military say they detected a plane at 1.28am, eight minutes after MH370’s communications went down, heading towards the Strait but didn’t share the information because they weren’t wasn’t asked for it.’

    Read more:

  79. “Gaps in air defence” !

    More like “gaps in airline/airport security.
    Guess what…. private flying is on the increase again.
    I haven’t stopped this week.

  80. That’s good news for you James, do you think that’s because of this missing flight then ?

    You are the right person to ask something I’ve been wondering about, is it possible for someone in the cockpit to switch off the in flight data which goes direct to the engine manufacturers, in the case RR ?

  81. Katie

    The question you want to know is “why” would you do that ?

    The answer is… that trent engine will send back data.
    It’s an EHM system. The engineers get “alerted” if there is an issue.
    However that means they can (could) look through the data (in this case “the recent transmitted data”) and work out if the engine was in cruise, take off or approach.

    ….and that’s why you see the news reporting “there was no ACARS working”.
    What they mean is, there was no SATcom (and no other channels available to transmit data).

    Because “then” you could see what the engine(s) were doing.

  82. Katie
    18 Mar, 2014 – 7:30 am – point taken. I made similar on Inquiring Minds as follows:

    “Just three other observations: We are told that a full 7.5 hours after the alleged “disappearance” the aircraft was still “pinging” to satellite receptor presumably because it is not, as an American government spokesman claimed “probably at the bottom of the ocean”.

    Wikipedia has this: “The Boeing 777 is Boeing’s first “fly-by-wire” airliner, with “computer-mediated controls” as part of the first entirely computer-designed commercial aircraft. It has a range of 5,235 to 9,380 nautical miles and the 777-200LR is the world’s longest-range airliner and can fly more than halfway around the globe; it holds the record for the longest distance flown non-stop by a commercial aircraft. It has a typical cruising speed of Mach 0.84 (560 mph, 905 km/h, 490 knots) at a cruise altitude of 35,000 ft (11,000 m).”

    Using these figures it is fairly easy to calculate that potentially the aircraft could have travelled up to around 4,100 miles (7.5 x 560) from its point of “disappearance” in the time available. That allows for a wide range of geographical locations.

    A further issue never addressed is why, once it was clear that the aircraft had gone “off-line” in both senses, standard protocol was not followed and the plane intercepted by military aircraft? After all the terrorist possibilities of hi-jacked commercial planes are now well understood world-wide.

    These are suspicious aspects to this story.END.”

  83. I could be very wrong…. but you have to ask “Why did the SIC (Co Pilot) transmit what he did, in the way he did).

    I assume he was leaving one “controlled” airspace for another.
    So where’s was the confirmation of that new frequency he would call ?

    After that reply, the systems were “pulled” and the a/c “appears” to have turned to the West (maybe it did).

    It seems to me a bit much for “pilot suicide”. He already had plenty of sea to go at. Nose fown, throttle up….and away ya go.

    There is something very odd here.
    Hypoxia ? I don’t know.
    Hypoxia and a “shoot down” ? Again possible.
    Hijack ? Could be, but someone knew what they were doing.

  84. Tim….

    And your calculations are based on….
    1. At what altitude ? (thick air ? Thin air ?)
    2. Weight ? (Max TOW is what ?)

    Here we go again !!!!!!!!!!

  85. james, thanks for that answer to katie, as i was wondering about the same thing myself. To wit:

    Reportedly the engines would typically send back data 4 times during the flight: at take-off, when cruise altitude is reached, sometime during the cruise, and at landing.

    We know that two sets of data were received. We heard nothing about the other two, which, as you say would be indicative of what the engines were doing when. We must therefore assume that such data transmission could not be sent once ACARS was down.

    Which is what I think katie’s question was and to which your answer was directed.

    I think we are all learning a lot about how straightforward it is to just “lose” a big plane. or to hijack one, if a pilot was highly skilled and had the mind to do so (not saying it was THE pilot that did it or the co-pilot, just someone very skilled and experienced). I know many – including myself – were surprised that a transponder could even be turned off manually from the cockpit.

    Alas, even more ‘surprises’ will likely be forthcoming, including about the lasting functionality of the “black box’ (that isn’t black).

    What are your theories as to what might have happened, if you care to share them?

  86. NR
    18 Mar, 2014 – 9:28 am 5 non-appearers and I think kidon but then that’s just suspicious me. Be interesting to know the names and locations of those five.

  87. Marlin

    The thing is, the Trent engines (and there are many in operation at one time) are constantly monitored….it is only when there is an “alert” (lets say a lightening strike and one engine surges) is sent to RR Trent “help desk”.
    The data (normal) will be there (but will not be “alerted” to the engineer), so will sit on there database (for that specific engine).

    ACARS is a “burst” and not “time sequenced” whereas engine data is.
    That’s what I have always been led to believe.

    So the engine data WILL be at RR, up until the a/c could not transmit.

    P.S. Non of this data (EHM or ACARS) will tell you “altitude, speed etc….” but from reading the data you can tell what an engine is doing.

  88. Thanks James & Tim.

    I just wanted to know about data the RR computers would have received,apparently they should receive info at 30 minute intervals on how the engines are performing.
    Is that ACARS or is ACARS a separate system just for the airline ?

    I think it should be a closed system & hopefully no way it can be turned off, meaning they would know for sure whether MH370 had actually flown or been stationary for hours.
    We know they are not able to tell us whilst the investigation is underway but the authorities will definitely have been told.

  89. The WH was asked directly if the aircraft was at Diego Garcia. Presidential spokesperson Jay Carney said it was not. Which, translated into common English, means it is.

    For a totally gratuitous dig at the president, “If you like your plane, you can keep your plane.” (For non-US readers, it’s a take off on a slogan for which he’s famous regarding health care.)

  90. On a national level there are coupons for hotels and
    car rentals as well as a number of national chain
    stores or online stores. You’ll be able to concentrate much better when you return.
    This sounds obvious in this day and age, but there are still plenty of sites that do not provide this capability.

  91. NR.

    I missed tonights bulletin, but I bet none of the journalists have asked ‘why are you searching for wreckage when there’s nothing coming from a black box ‘ ?

    Surely had there been a crash landing on land or sea, that box would be transmitting signals ?

  92. Katie

    The “simple” answer is… I don’t know.
    It depends on what service contract MAS has with their provider.

    ACARS can transmit frequently OR it can transmit infrequently.
    How much do you want to pay ?

    A very brief “overview”.
    Systems transmit depending on your (the airlines) service package.
    A transmission will go by various “modes”.
    Way out over water… it’ll be sent via satellite.

    NOTE. Any data (ACARS) will not be relaeased until an investigation.
    “thems the rules”.
    So if MAS had “real time” transmission package, then data would be sent more frequently that “30 mins”.

  93. Katie….

    I’ll try and be crystal clear as these things can be hard to explain.

    If MAS could have (almost) realtime data of that flight up until it’s communication systems were turned off, they are not saying (and they can’t).

    They (MAS) appear to be saying they did not have that “realtime data” package.

    They (MAS) are saying that “it is likely” that all comms stopped AFTER the Second in Command replied on the controller (approx 1.30 local time).

    After that time the aircraft “pulled the breaker switches” on their comms.
    They then seem to have (on primary radar) turned West.

    It is claimed that a satellite “pinged” the flight “at a distance of XYZ” which places that flight on an arc (give various altitudes and speed).
    (HOW or WHAT “pinged”, I have not got a clue).

    The “theory” is, the flight descended to “a low level” and continued flying.
    It “avoided” Primary radar (it appears) so it is a guess at it’s speed. altitude and direction.

    I have a couple of theories….but I have not got a clue what has happened.

  94. OK,James. I was thinking maybe it was an obligation of the engine manufacturers, that perhaps their computers attached purely to the engines & the aftercare is theirs & only their responsibility…as part of the sale contract & guarantees…………… sort of thing.

    I assume there’s much confidential information in the Trent engine as RR developed some special bonded metals & design.

  95. James
    18 Mar, 2014 – 8:32 pm well I never! You’ve popped up again after a long absence, to take a predictable “pop” at me. “Here we go again indeed!” Presumably you have been flying your glitterati or illuminati around the world in the meantime? Did you see MH370 fly past by any chance? I think we should be told.

    As to the substance of your criticism, even I, a cyclist, am aware that range depends on multiple factors as much for an aeroplane as for a bike. I use more energy going up hill than down; more with the wind against me than behind; and much more with my girlfriend on the back. I might even go faster at 35,000 feet who knows?

    I thought I would use the bike analogy to make it simpler for you to understand.

    Oh and for the record you obviously missed the point I was making that the calculation was based on Boeing’s average cruising speed and the stated last satellite recognition signal. It gives a rough indicative maximal distance it could have travelled in that time not the actual one. It could have landed a few miles from where it took off for all we know.

    From all accounts, agreement on its actual course, speed, altitude, destination or disappearance is as shaky as me on my bike. But then as always you are so much better informed and so modest with it. I am surprised you have contributed so little to our discussion up to this point.

    Am looking forward to you you solving the mystery at your earliest opportunity and thereby save the rest us further time or trouble discussing the matter.

  96. @all

    I found this summary of various scenarios from aviation expert rather helpful:–swapped–mid-air–haynes-manual-plane-expert-offers-his-theories-135928312.html

    to be sure, it doesn’t tell what did happen but puts likelihood numbers next to various potential pilot actions. It kind of answered some of my questions about depressurization possibilities.


    I saw your suggestion of Hypoxia incapacitating the pilot(s) – either here or on deadzone. There was a theory advanced by an ex-pilot I believe (saw it on The Guardian in the Updates section) that a fire could have disabled various communication sections and the pilot set the aircraft direct for landing at that Malaysian island, but may be they succumbed to smoke or something and failed to land. The scenario was debunked as low probability by many others.

    Tim V, james

    No fighting now, OK? we have a major new mystery here to deal with and most of us are interested in any and all suggestions.

  97. Hello Tim.

    Was I fly “my” glitterati or illuminati around ?

    In the real world we call passengers with money to pay the bills “clients”.
    They tip better that way.

    But I like how you still can use “many, many, many” words to try and have a dig.
    And yet still fail !

    The thing in life that never change hey !

  98. Marlin…..

    To be honest, I haven’t a clue on this.
    On hypoxia, there is a “hilarious” vid on youtube that will show you what it’s like.

    I do the training…but never “bought the T shirt”.

    I’ll try and find the clip for you.

  99. Marlin

    There you go. It’s “funny”, but not….if it happens.

  100. That’s an interesting point Bluebird
    18 Mar, 2014 – 11:53 am. Others have highlighted a particular attachment to and affinity with allegory and allusion and hidden meanings. We saw it at Chevaline. You might have detected it here. It’s always deniable as the imaginings of fevered minds and supportive of a diagnosis of neurosis associated with conspiracy theorising so effective in dismissing opposition. “Yet still it moves”.

  101. @katie: 18 Mar, 2014 – 9:25 pm “NR. I missed tonights bulletin, but I bet none of the journalists have asked ‘why are you searching for wreckage when there’s nothing coming from a black box ‘ ? Surely had there been a crash landing on land or sea, that box would be transmitting signals ?”

    James would know better, but my understanding is the black/orange, crash-proof Flight Data and Voice Recorders, emit acoustic pings underwater and radio signals on land. Aircraft also have (2?) separate rescue beacons which are intended to detach on a crash and emit radio signals.

    If the black/orange boxes are deep in the Indian Ocean, don’t know the range at which they could be detected.

  102. NR

    That place is deep, that’s for sure. And it’s big. Very big.

    If that triple 7 is “somewhere” in there, then they better start looking for Amelia Earhart instead, because that is gone.

    If (IF) it is the case, then I hope they find some kind of wreckage floating …otherwise MAS will pull the search after awhile. No one can pay that much money and keep flying.


    14.3.14 “The aircraft was powered by two Derby-built Trent 800 engines. It is likely that these were being monitored by engineers in Rolls-Royce’s Service Operations Room, in Victory Road.”
    The room monitors every flight in which Rolls-Royce engines are used, 24 hours a day, every day, which means that the company could have data relating to the investigation.

    Citing two unidentified sources “familiar with the details”, the report claimed that data downloaded from the Boeing 777’s engines led investigators to surmise that the plane flew for four hours.”

    13.3.14 “Malaysia’s defense minister denies U.S. investigators’ claims that missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 flew for hours after it left radar screens

    Malaysia’s defense minister denied reports Thursday that the Missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 may have stayed airborne for as much as four hours after it was lost from radar screens, the Associated Press reports.”

    13.3.14 “Erin Atan, Rolls-Royce head of Asia-Pacific and Middle East communications, was unable to confirm or deny the Wall Street Journal reporter earlier when contacted by TIME, citing the terms of sharing information relating to an official accident investigation.

    “We are monitoring the situation, and we have offered Malaysia Airlines and related parties all cooperation from the outset,” she said, naturally raising questions as to why this information, if accurate, was not shared with passengers’ families earlier.

    On Wednesday, U.S. officials told AFP that American spy satellites detected no sign of a mid-air explosion when the jet vanished. Heat signatures from exploding aircraft have been used as a clue in previous incidents but none was spotted in this case, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.”
    june 2009. The driving force behind this service-focused ethos is the Operations Centre. The centre dealing with civil engines support in Derby is staffed by 170 people and there are also centres at Bristol, UK and Dahlewitz in Germany. They incorporate a ‘front desk’, occupied by a small team of experienced engineers monitoring the worldwide fleet, tracking trends and giving customers real-time advice 24/7, 365 days each year. They also hold a larger back-room team, whose key roles are to support immediate needs and to put the tools and processes in place for medium- and long-term technology, engineering, repair and overhaul, and logistics developments.


    EHM is the cornerstone of the Operations Room effectiveness. It uses a range of sensors strategically positioned throughout the engine to record 20-30 key technical parameters several times each flight. EHM sensors are installed in a large proportion of the company’s civil engines fleet and EHM capability is provided for virtually all of the latest Trent family of engines.

    EHM is essentially a technique for predicting when something might go wrong. It is especially useful in industries such as aerospace and medicine where the results of a technical failure could prove very costly indeed – so what EHM aims to do is avert a potential threat before it has a chance to develop into a real problem.

    The EHM sensors in aero-engines monitor numerous critical engine characteristics such as temperatures, pressures, speeds, flows and vibration levels to ensure they are within known tolerances – or, more importantly still, to highlight when they are not.

    The engine is permanently fitted with about 25 sensors. Many of these are multi-purpose as they are used to control the engine and provide indication of engine operation to the pilot as well as being used by the EHM system.

    These are selected to make the system as flexible as possible. The main engine parameters – shaft speeds and turbine gas temperature (TGT) – are used to give a clear view of the overall health of the engine. A number of pressure and temperature sensors are fitted through the gas path of the engine to enable the performance of each of the main modules (including the fan, the intermediate and high pressure compressors, and the high, intermediate and low pressure turbines) to be calculated.

    These sensors are fitted between each module, except where the temperature is too high for reliable measurements to be made. Vibration sensors provide valuable information on the condition of all the rotating components. An electric magnetic chip detector is fitted to trap any debris in the oil system that may be caused by unusual wear to bearings or gears.

    Other sensors are used to assess the health of the fuel system (pump, metering valve, filter); the oil system (pump and filter); the cooling air system and the nacelle ventilation (nacelle is the cover housing – separate from the fuselage – that holds engines, fuel, or equipment on aircraft).

    As engine operation can vary significantly between flights (due to day temperature or pilot selection of reduced thrust), data from the aircraft to provide thrust setting, ambient conditions and bleed extraction status is also used.

    Most modern large civil aircraft use an Aircraft Condition Monitoring System (ACMS) to acquire the data for EHM. This captures three types of reports:

    The first are snapshots, where the sensor data listed above is captured and collected into a small report. This is carried out during take-off, during climb and once the aircraft is in cruise.

    The second type is triggered by unusual engine conditions. Examples might be if an engine surged, or exceeded its TGT (Turbine Gas Temperature) limits during a take-off. These reports contain a short time-history of key parameters to enable rapid and effective trouble-shooting of the problem.

    The final type is a summary, which is produced at the end of the flight. This captures information such as maximum conditions experienced during the flight, and power reductions selected during take-off and climb.

    The Trent 900 is the first engine to be fitted with a dedicated Engine Monitoring Unit as well as the ACMS. This engine-mounted system places a powerful signal processing and analysis capability onto the engine. This is used to look in more detail at the vibration spectrum, which helps to pick up problems with bearings or rotating components. It also provides a flexible computing platform so new EHM software can be rapidly deployed to detect specific problems.

    A critical aspect of the EHM system is the transfer of data from aircraft to ground. The A380 uses the ‘ACARS’ digital datalink system as the primary method. This transmits the ACMS reports via a VHF radio or satellite link whilst the aircraft is in-flight. A worldwide ground network then transfers this data to the intended destination.

    The positive aspect of this system is its robust nature and ability to distribute information worldwide. On the other hand, the size of reports that can be handled are very small (typically just 3kBytes), so the acquisition systems described above need to work within this limitation.

    Future systems are being deployed to increase data volumes through wireless data transmission as the aircraft approaches the gate after landing. This will enable more data to be analysed, but will not be as immediate as ACARS, where data can be assessed well before the aircraft lands again.

    As soon as the individual reports arrive at the specialist EHM analysts OSyS (Optimized Systems & Solutions, a subsidiary company of Rolls-Royce), they are processed automatically. The data are checked for validity and corrections applied to normalise them. For the snapshot data, this is always ‘trended’, so that subtle changes in condition from one flight to another can be detected. Automated algorithms based on neural networks are used to do this, and multiple sensor information is fused to provide the most sensitive detection capability.

    When abnormal behaviour is detected, this is confirmed by an OSyS analyst based in the Operations Centre, before being sent to the aircraft operator and logged by the Rolls-Royce Technical Help Desk. Manual oversight is still an important part of the process, as false alerts can cause unnecessary maintenance actions to be taken by airlines and these need to be avoided.

    Trended data, and data from the other types of ACMS report, are also uploaded onto the Rolls-Royce aeromanager website, so that plane operators can easily view the health of their fleet of engines.

    Note RR do not deny they have the usual comprehensive Trent engine information. You can be sure they would have if they could have to distance themselves from the incident. Neither do they indicate any problems with reception. In the circumstances it may be assumed that RR have full engine information from which can be deduced the time the engines were shut down either catastrophically or normally. From this and other parameters they will know whether the plane crashed or landed normally and the geographical alternatives.

    This is just from engine monitoring and ignoring all other civil and military radar systems on land, sea and air or satellite visual and electronic monitoring. I do no believe the story we – the public – are being sold. “They” MUST know what happened to the aircraft and where it is.

  104. When you know the answer but don’t want to tell, the best option is options. In other words, confusion.'s-tracking-system
    18.3.14 “The former inspector-general of America’s transportation department, Mary Schiavo, says any problem with the plane needs to be resolved because many other planes of that model are used by airlines.
    The new timeline means the plane may have actually been hit by a mechanical malfunction, CNN reports. This could be very significant, because the revision means that the communications systems, which the media were led to believe were switched off before the unconventional sign-off, may have been still working.
    The person saying ‘goodnight’ could have been in charge of a plane that was working totally normally, and whatever happened occurred after that. That raises the possibility that it was a catastrophic mechanical failure, rather than a deliberate human act.
    However, the New York Times reported on Monday the turn that diverted the missing plane off its flight path was programmed into the aircraft’s computer navigation system, probably by someone in the cockpit.
    Rather than manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer situated between the captain and the co-pilot, US officials said.
    The computer is called the Flight Management System. It directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before a flight. It’s not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off.
    A veteran US pilot believes investigators are right to look at the possibility of equipment failure as well as speculation over terrorism and hijacking scenarios. Les Abend, a Boeing 777 captain and writer for Flying magazine, said it’s possible there was a problem serious enough for the crew to have lost control of the plane before a distress signal was sent. Though major electrical and electronic failures are rare, they could prevent critical information from being transmitted, he said.”

  105. Tim V, from the evasiveness of the malaysian officials, the way they kept changing the story – from totally denying the craft flew for ‘another 4 hours”, to non-availability of military data, to data links with the RR engines, to the photoshopped Iranian passengers, to who knows what else – it’s looking more and more like trying very hard NOT to tell things than the opposite. No wonder the Chinese papers have taken them to task.

    Something is very wrong about the way information is and isn’t coming out. I especially liked the thai response when asked why they didn’t share their radar data earlier – “we were not asked”. Is that something for the fairy tale books or not? Mind you, the area of the malay peninsula where the airplane crossed on its westward track was practically in Thai territory! My question is who wouldn’t ask the Thai for confirming data?

    Only two possibilities – they really weren’t asked, in which case the malaysian transportation ministry appears downright misleading (no one can be THAT incompetent).

    Or, they were asked and didn’t want to share, in which case the Thai are lying. I don’t see this to be in their best interest as it would indicate they have poor radar coverage, something they’d surely not want to advertise.

    No other possibilities.

    So I’m leaning to the first possibility – the maysians tried at the beginning to cover-up the westward track. Something about which it is now clear they had military radar indications was the case. They didn’t WANT the Thai to provide too much information is the likely possibility.

    In which case, the question is why. The indications of the aircraft moving west must have been firmly indicated by their own data,even if they didn’t want to share it. So why play ostrich for so many days?

    Again, only two possibilities:

    One, they were embarrassed by their failure to send up planes to intercept the aircraft, or may be the plane was in Thai territory when crossing over, and it’s the Thai who are embarrassed?

    Second, they were “in the know” about something and were playing for time. In which case, it is fair to assume the Thai would have been appraised as well.

    I give these two options a probability of 40% for the first and 60% for the second. There are, again, no other options.

    Suggestions are already being made 9even in The Guardian) that the Malaysian Transportation minister himself is somehow involved. Here and elsewhere, the scenario that some gold was in the cargo and a decision was made to “pirate” it off somewhere (as long as it’s away from the Chinese) which would require collusion from Malay officials (the pilot wouldn’t know till he signs in, see above comment). Same if it was some biologically problematic cargo, as BB intimated here.

    These scenarios looked quite far fetched a mere week ago. now – not so much.

    For indications and hints as to what’s really gone down, I would carefully watch the Chinese reactions. Whatever happened they were not party to it, that’s my own hunch.

  106. Another question to james:

    In your opinion, what could be the reasons for a pilot to take the aircraft to an altitude of 45,000 feet?

    Three possibilities again, right?

    (1) it happened during a struggle for the cockpit and was inadvertent.

    (2) it happened deliberately, in which case, we should really wonder why. It must have been of some benefit to whoever hijacked the plane (see also my yahoo link above for the possible reasons, such as ‘getting rid” of the passengers and co-pilot through depressurization – needed for much shorter time).

    (3) some hetherto unknown manoeuver. If so, why?

    Any thoughts?


  107. Amazing thread right here… and 100 pages…well done you lot… and nice to see some of you on the vanishing Plane thread too… Keep it up Good people :)

  108. The author Christopher Bollyn weighs in:

    [my emphasis,links added]

    Are the Israelis Planning Another 9-11 Using the Missing Boeing 777?

    By Christopher Bollyn

    March 18, 2014


    An Israel-based reporter named Paul Alster has a very interesting article on giving an Israeli prognosis about the missing Malaysian Boeing 777. The Alster article is important because it suggests that the Israelis may be setting the stage for a false-flag event using the missing Malaysian plane as a flying bomb in an attack similar to 9-11.

    The article, which follows this introduction, is very revealing because it contains information that indicates that the Israelis may be projecting a terror scenario by planting the ideation in the public mind by using the media. Ideation in this case is the projection of the scenario planned by the terror masterminds who put the idea into people’s heads so that they will blame the targeted foe when their plot unfolds into reality. The following article has comments from Israeli El Al airport “security” veterans that are very similar to comments tweeted by Rupert Murdoch in the past day or two. How interesting that Murdoch and the Israeli airline security people imagine the exact same fate for the missing Boeing. How telling.

    It is important to note that these Israeli El Al security people are the same people (ICTS, Menachem Atzmon, and assorted Mossadniks), who carried out the ideation (Murdoch’s “Lone Gunmen” pilot episode and Arnon Milchan’s Medusa Touch film come to mind) and false-flag attacks of 9-11. This is what the evidence I present in my Solving 9-11 books reveals about Israeli involvement in false-flag terrorism of 9-11. The fact that the same people are now projecting the ideation of the Boeing 777 being used in a terror attack needs to be taken very seriously.

    The game is on. Beware of the very real possibility that the plane may resurface, used as a weapon of terror to cause a provocation that can be used to initiate aggression against a targeted foe – such as the Islamic Republic of Iran. If enough people realize the evil game of deception the Israelis are up to, they won’t be able to pull off another major terror spectacle – and get away with it.

  109. @Katie
    “The aerial search will use infrared technology to scan the ocean surface, Australian Defence Force Group Captain Stuart Bellingham said. “We are not looking underwater at all and we don’t have the capability to pick up black boxes or underwater electronic beacons.””

    US Navy pilot interviewed said much the same, except added that anti-submarine planes such as the P-8 Poseidon are equipped to detect very small surface objects, specifically submarine periscopes.

    The P-8 Poseidon is also be able to drop and monitor sonobuoys, which “might” detect pings from the black boxes, but from how far I don’t know. CNN reports that the pings are very weak and even with a known location hard to detect.

    The P-8 also has an external boom to detect submarines by distortions in the magnetic field, but I doubt an aircraft has much magnetic material in its structure.

    Another problem is the time spent flying out to the search area (1600Km? off Australia) and back, which limits time available for searching.

    Today CNN also reported on the original story about the last contact being with another pilot at the request of Vietnamese ATC. The one that was said to be discredited. Just another mix-up?

    “What Really Happened Aboard Air France 447″ has the recovered cockpit voice recorder translated into English. Unrelated but an interesting read. 2 pages.

  110. Marlin, there’s more on that here,it’s a good summary;

    :From Diego Garcia to Where?

    If suppose we are to assume that the plane was indeed diverted to Diego Garcia, it is reasonable to assume that the plane and its passengers would not be kept there indefinitely. If we are to follow the logic of some devoted conspiracy theorists who are pursuing this on other forums, the plane and its passengers would be flown to the Eastern mainland of the United States, over the Atlantic Ocean to escape scrutiny (and comparatively less distance than the other way around). Of course, the plane’s livery would be painted over. The plane’s wreckage would later be carefully deposited by (presumably by air) on a location far away from Diego Garcia.

    But why are we discussing this here?

    ‘Because the same devoted conspiracy theorists who are pursuing this on other forums have pointed out that four days after the disappearance of MH370, a curious military exercise took place on the Southern-Eastern part of the United States coastline. Fighter jets were reportedly “escorting” a plane. To quote,

    “Members of the South Carolina Air National Guard are conducting an air defense exercise along the coast. Guard Senior Master Sergeant Edward Snyder says people might see fighter jets escorting a civilian aircraft Thursday over the North Charleston and Myrtle Beach areas.

    However ,my posting
    Mar, 2014 – 11:08 am

    With the link for the first Maldive sighting , now being taken seriously by the media, is strengthened & possibly confirms where this MH370 went for refuelling & re-flagging,before travelling further.

  111. Morning NR.

    Yes I’ve tried to learn more about the Blackbox, I wasn’t aware it could only be found in the most basic way of physically searching, there’s no doubt the system needs an upgrade, to think it can only be found by literally hunting for it in this day & age is ludicrous.

    Also after the Air France crash there was a call to extend the lifetime signal from 30 to 90 days,was it ever done I wonder. Why don’t we have a GPS signal sent to computers etc,at the very least it would pin point an area on where to start searching ?
    Immediately the box is dislodged ,before it even hits the water, an alarm could be triggered, similar to a car alarm.

  112. Good morning al-Hilli people. Apologies for not visiting you very often. I wonder if you could kindly make MH370 comments on the new thread on that subject, rather than here?

  113. Hello Craig, yes,we have rather deviated from the original topic. Is there anyway these existing comments on MH370 can be transferred to your other blog thread ?

  114. Agreed Craig, and thanks for popping in. I think people just got waylaid by this mystery. Agree with katie, if there was a way of moving comments to the other blog, that’d be great. If not, people could perhaps reproduce their comments, since I think there were several good suggestions made and links brought in.

    I did post on the other thread a couple of times, repeating posts here and I know Bluebird gave a good summary of his – ever so excellent – theory (right or wrong, it is creative and no less likely than some of the other suggestions we hear).

    Personally, I’m all for getting back to Chevaline and asked to do so before. It’s not like the subject is exhausted or, for that matter, solved.

  115. NR 7.42 ““What Really Happened Aboard Air France 447″ has the recovered cockpit voice recorder translated into English. Unrelated but an interesting read. 2 pages.

    Thanks for that. It’s a chilling insight into how a little incident (a captain popping off for forty winks) can have disastrous consequences for a plane and all its occupants. More than anything else, the disaster appears to be down to an inexperienced pilot in control in adverse conditions, pulling up the nose and thus stalling the plane and loosing control of the plane. He could not understand why despite pulling back on the joystick the plane was loosing altitude. The more experienced co-pilot didn’t take control in time and didn’t realise what his colleague had been doing. The captain returned too late and fatefully didn’t take over. Just reading the transcript is an exercise in empathy and far more heart-stopping than a disaster movie.

    However I think it is pretty clear we have something quite different in the case of MH370 and the situations are not transferable, the simple reason being that we are told the latter was still being detected over seven hours after it was initially said to have crashed into the sea. As with Chevaline we are forced to make the best of what might be disingenuous information and trying to divine what is true and what is not, but no one seems to have questioned that bit of information so we must assume it is reliable. It means that over 7 hours later it was still flying or powered up on the ground SOMEWHERE. It rules out crash or submersion at least up to that point.

    Where the tragic AF447 story is illuminating is the statement that up until the belated retrieval of the black box and consequent flight deck conversation, the only indicative information available was the automatic engine printout sent back to AF HQ. This was enough to determine the plane had crashed and many of the technical parameters but could not divulge the human responses to them.

    So the inference for MH370 is two fold. Rolls Royce Boeing have all the information they require to recreate the flight plan. Probably every variation to engines and cockpit controls has been relayed including crucially take-off and landing. They must know where it has gone and where it set down.

    The other obvious point is that if the plane had crashed they would know beyond doubt it happened. They would surely have said this if it had happened at least. They are hiding behind “commercial confidentiality” which is questionable enough, but surely would not have done so if their technical feedback had confirmed crash?

    Yet again, apros pos Chevaline, we are in the realms of information known to some being with held to all for reasons only known to the “some”. Where so many lives and families are affected the immorality of that is plain to see. (No pun intended) The wider issue with all these things is who has a right to information and who has a right to withhold it for what reason?

  116. …. and on a related point, the reason underwater sonar detection has not been deployed, or at least trumpeted is easy to deduce. Because they know the aircraft is NOT as the American spokesman wanted us to believe, that it was at the bottom of the Indian Ocean. That statement by the way would infer a terrorist event, for why else would it crash?

    The problem with that is that no rational explanation has been forwarded for it. No terrorist organisation has come forward (again similar to Chevaline) We would for causation be back in “lone maniac” territory or state organised event. Was the US spokesman suggesting either of these?

    As I see it, there are a few alternatives. Maybe you can think of more.

    * If valuable cargo was on board it might be convenient to PRETEND it had crashed as cover for theft.

    * Alternatively if valuable cargo was stolen beforehand, it may be useful to crash the plane and pretend the cargo was lost as may have happened with that UN fight off Newfoundland (possibly)

    * Alternatively if it was necessary to prevent expertise of valuable cargo getting to China, detour or crash might have been considered worthwhile.

    * Alternatively as per the Sorensen/Bollyn theory, the operation was just to obtain an aeroplane that could be used in a terror event and blamed on an opponent.

    Whatever the reason (and there always must be one) given the fact that it didn’t crash as initially suggested, rather rules out 2 and 3 and points to either 1 or 4.

  117. Tim V, could you please repost your last two comments on Craig’s new thread please (see the link from Katie above). that per Craig’s request above. We should be considerate to our ever patient host here and I too would prefer this thread be reserved for discussing Chevaline and potentially related events, even though MH370 now commands most of our interest. I know there has been nothing new recently, but that did not seem a deterrent before? Thanks.

  118. Marlin, did do, incidentally before I saw your helpful suggestion. Regards, Tim.

  119. A convenient way of burying the Al Hilli conundrum.

    We conspiratorial types are so easily distracted!

  120. Mochyn69, I am with you on that.

    It is true I’m afraid – the achiles heel of “conspiracy” types, who are attracted to mysteries pote tially involving nefarious goings on by powerful interests (like state secret agencies) is that they get easily distracted, like you say.

    It’s as if the wind blew out of the sails of poor old little Chevaline. Yes, this horse has been beaten much, but I don’t think we have seen the end of the shenanigans, the purpose of which was to bury the ‘story” not to solve the case. Isn’t that why people kept on it for so long? including here and on MZT and now Deadzone (which has also seemed to run out of steam, perhaps for lack of any new information?).

    yes, the MH370 is a great mystery involving that many more people, states and who knows what interests. But Chevaline is still there, the victims remain dead, the official story never came together, suspects are as elusive as rainbows on a clear day.

    I am afraid that in all the hoopla, the Al-Hillis are indeed becoming forgotten. Well, if it’s any consolation, I forgot no notin’.

    Now, were I a true blue conspiracy theorist I might almost conclude that there is intention behind the fogs of re-directions. I think I may go over to the disappearing aircraft thread and see if I can rouse some troops back to the cause, as much as it looks like “old hat”.

    I am almost t

  121. I don’t see the al-Hillis as forgotten. I see the MH 370 story, and its handling, as part of a bigger picture. That is, there are certain commonalities in the way both stories were handled by governments and news agencies. Both involve the shifting sand of “what we know”. Do we “know” anything at all, and why does there seem to be no “fact” at all in either story — nothing verifiable from trustworthy sources? Why is it that the very idea of either Saad al-Hilli or Sylvain Mollier being involved in some sort of espionage (corporate or state) was dismissed as nonsense? It doesn’t seem far-fetched in light of the MH 370 story. What about numerous passports belonging to certain people, altered or unaltered, forged in entirety or not, missing and found? Who was grandma, really? Do we even know whose bodies were found, or if the al-Hillis actually ever crossed the channel? The more we “know”, the less we know.

    These two stories have that in common. Both have the airline connection, and the connection to satellites. It makes me think that both stories are connected. The only thing that can be certain is that the officials in charge of both investigations know a whole lot more than they will reveal, and that decisions pertaining to these cases are being made at a high (top secret) level. Perhaps it was necessary in the beginning to dismiss the airline and satellite connections to the al-Hilli murders, in order to have no one question either one, nor think of how navigation systems for satellites like the ones made by SSTL may be similar to navigation systems in airplanes. Both work together, and no doubt both can be hacked by people with the right knowledge. Did Saad build airline galleys, or was he involved with the navigation systems for commercial airliners, and getting those navigation systems to communicate with SSTL satellites?

    I have not forgotten the al-Hillis. Have you?

  122. Q @ 10:18pm. Good point about the strange ‘equivalences” between Chevaline and MH370. Even though these are not obvious and may be on another level, there are a few “themes” that keeps repeating. Well, you know about my affinity for patterns.

    You may also want to check out Tim V’s comment to me on the Disppeapearing Aircraft” thread. He made an interesting point the gist of it is that we may again be looking at a cover-up where the British may be playing a bit of a “spoiler’ role. he brought up the British Inmarsat satellite “pings” that indicated the flight was ongoing for over 7 hours, something the Malaysians did not disclose for several days, even as they must have known the search was in the wrong area all that time. In fact, there are all kind of strange delays from the officials’ side – see my (somewhat convoluted, as usual) reply to Tim V on the same thread.

    While you are there, you may wish to call some of the troops back “home”? I don’t want to see this thread close down – I know you, Bluebird, Tim V and others put in lots of effort to keep it up and alive (even as I have to periodically absent myself for various length of times), and new information may pop in any moment. Also james has been an absolute sweetheart in that other place. And Katie wis all too coherent and constructive. NR is his/her usual witty informative self and Tim V is, as always, ever-incorrigibly analytic. Nice to see everyone on best behavior….

  123. Did you say “rally the troops”, Marlin? Okay, what do the “troops” have to say about this development, in light of France’s role:

    France tells the UK to do something about Russian oligarchs in London, in order for France to think about doing something about the Mistral contract, maybe, possibly, whatever.

    Is this part of a chess game that connects to Chevaline?

  124. Personally speaking, I haven’t given up on Chevaline either, though in the absence of any new developments or revelations, there is not much to say. We are clearly “second-tier” investigators. Were we able to take the role of journalists (of the old school) or even police detectives things might be different. Unfortunately as we have noted many times, the former largely act as as channels for whatever is put out by official sources (did you notice the repetition of that term “credible evidence” that kept cropping up re. MH370 possible debris that I believe results from orchestration) and the latter is firmly under political/security services control.

    Rank and secrecy are such fundamental characteristics of British policing, and so much depending on them in pay and pension, that “toeing the line” is integral to quasi-military set up. From Constable to Chief Constable and if he or she know what’s good for them, through Special Branch and MI5 in the Home Office.

    There is still the big question hanging? What has that huge British investigation discovered and when will it be revealed? Only Parliament has the necessary tools to enquire if our “free press” is unable or unwilling so to do. Isn’t it time questions were asked of the Home Secretary in the House? Perhaps it is time a public petition was organised?

    “In my book”, the only rational explanation for the total silence from the British side (apart from seeded disinformation) can be matters of national security. However to admit such would obviously beg the question and prove collusion and cover up at least on the French side, and by implication the British side also.

    So we have this state of scarcely believable theatre and we know all theatre is merely illusion to portray or protect greater truths. It certainly seems we have repeat performance in MH370, a plan perhaps frustrated only by a little oversight on the part of the planners – a “bleeping” transmitter in the “bleeping” tail, which the “bleeping” British chose not to keep “beeping” quiet about!

    So in this regard I thought an event from the past illustrates some of the issues we have seen here. The way the British Government works at least. How Parliamentary procedures are by passed when it comes to matters of state security. How figures in the opposition are made to toe the line so that they don’t. How Special Branch is employed to enforce. How the BBC is coerced.

    These events link Chevaline, “Zircon” spy satellites, and secret accounting 25 or more years ago. It is old hat when it was still possible to walk up Downing Street without a semi-automatic or gate in sight, so it would naive to things were now much different or better. It is what makes that “Panorama investigation” so significant as a window into British Government thinking and strategy.

    If you don’t have time to look at all these references, just look at the last which in some ways brings it altogether.


    TopSat (Tactical Operational Satellite) is an Earth observation satellite that was launched on October 27, 2005 alongside the Beijing-1 Disaster Monitoring Constellation satellite by a Cosmos rocket from Plesetsk Cosmodrome in Russia. TopSat carries out imaging with a ground resolution of 2.5m. Much smaller and cheaper than other imaging satellites of similar high resolution, TopSat has been used to demonstrate the feasibility of providing images on demand to portable groundstations, such as might be deployed by the military or by disaster relief organisations.


    TopSat was built in the United Kingdom by Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd, QinetiQ and The Rutherford Appleton Laboratory under the British National Space Centre Mosaic programme. The MOD was the largest single contibutor to the program.

    The TopSat program was highly successful technology demonstrator able to return decent imagery for a knock down price of just £15 million. It was hoped that the UK would be able to build a constellation of these satellites however with present budget cuts the appetite for this seems to have diminished.”

  125. Q
    22 Mar, 2014 – 1:55 pm your references illustrate the hypocritical and largely fatuous statements that have come out of Brussels and Washington. The fact of the matter they are largely huff and puff. Having inflamed the internal situation in the Ukraine rather than waiting for upcoming elections that would probably have seen the current crook leader voted out, it has effectively come to an accommodation over Crimea with the hope that Putin won’t keep marching West. For him not to, Europe will have to pull back on its demands unless Ukraine is to be split down the middle in a Hitler/Stalin type deal. The reality of the modern world is that countries are so interwoven economically, it is hard even to distinguish “national interest” at all. For a principled stand, France, Britain and Germany all stand to loose vast sums. France would loose its arms deals, Britain its London property market, Germany its export market. Of course these are just examples. Further afield, America is in hock to China to maintain the value of the Dollar. So any “international incident” is multi layered and far from simple. The interpretations and reactions are highly nuanced and may not reflect the understandings behind closed doors. What for example are the Americans saying to the Chinese in secret about MH370?

  126. The same vested interests keep the events at Chevaline hushed?

  127. Indeed Q. That is certainly what I have thought was the only reasonable explanation for the lies and cover-up on the French side and silence on the British. I expect you noted the convoluted issues with just spy satellites in which SSST has such a paradoxically prominent yet inconspicuous role. Britain/America/France/Germany/Italy; co-operation/competition/obstruction/sabotage even.

  128. Linda at Deadzone has posted an update to the prosecution of BFM TV for the pictures showing the crime scene of the killing.
    A complaint was filed in early March by family lawyers Sylvain Mollier.

  129. What about reposting a link to that BFM TV report, because I did not catch it at the time, and others — who just enters briefly here — probably also missed out on it.

  130. Bluebird , here’ something for you to investigate. Who and of what ancestry is Mr. Patrick Onel? This is so clever, because the Mint had the right to use these sophisticated machines, because they were also doing legitimate minting.

    Dutch counterfeiting ring’s £30m swindle behind decision to replace £1 coin

    Detectives believe that the ring, which was supplying British crime syndicates, is the largest and most sophisticated the UK has ever seen.

    The revelation of the operation’s scale came as Chancellor George Osborne announced that the £1 coin was to be replaced with a 12-sided design to help deter counterfeiting.

    One industry source said: “This [counterfeiting] operation has been going on since at least 2006 and it is estimated that they have been producing around £4m worth of £1 coins each year, if not more. This is certainly the biggest operation the UK has seen, both in terms of scale and sophistication.”
    In November last year, the Dutch anti-fraud officers raided the premises of a firm called the European Central Mint (ECM) and arrested the owner, Patrick Onel, 49, after discovering machines capable of producing hundreds of coins per minute. A man aged 67 was also arrested on suspicion of forgery and of possessing 3kg of cannabis.
    Dutch police are understood to have found machinery capable of producing the master dyes used to make £1 coins, something that has never been seen before in UK forgeries.

    Italy’s elite finance police, the Guardia di Finanza, are understood to be involved in the multinational investigation. Italy is believed to be the source of up to 80 per cent of the EU’s counterfeit euro banknotes. A recent EU audit of vending machines in Naples revealed a very high percentage of counterfeit coins.

    “I am not sure that the FIOD [the Dutch anti-fraud agency] realised quite what they had come across when they raided the company’s premises, such was the sophistication of the technology …. Investigators are beginning to realise that this company had widespread connections with the UK and, by implication, must have been supplying many different criminal syndicates.”

  131. I don’t know if it’s there anymore Kenneth they got into trouble for publishing photos of the crime scene .
    You can try searching here

  132. Gone from here as far as I can tell just a message “video does not exist.”

  133. Is that to say that nobody in this digital age we live in, has PVR'ed it? Try to ask at deadzone.

  134. Mine just posted on the other site as it suggests a rationale how the two events might be connected so relevant to both threads.

    Kenneth Sorensen
    23 Mar, 2014 – 4:39 am I’m glad you liked my little discussion or “rant” as James kindly describes it. Clearly what is meat for one is foul for another. I wonder why? I have seen some early contributions from “James”. He seems a reformed character these days.

    My aim, if aim there was, to show how with time the issue of satellite detection has become a hot political potato, that is also used as a bargaining chip as with Britain contributing hundreds of millions to American assets so that it can get access, whilst not being wholly comfortable with the dependence. Falklands was the warning bell that encouraged “Zircon”. It can’t quite go it alone but it is moving that way.

    Zircon as you probably saw, was the second time big expenditure was with-held from the Commons watchdog. The first was Chevaline – upgrading with multiple warheads the Polaris missile – in complete secrecy. So rather neatly Chevaline the missile is linked to Chevaline the massacre. Why? Because apart from obvious vocabulary, the direct descendent of Zircon, abandoned on cost grounds, is the latest generation of “Topsat” from 2005 onwards.

    It is Topsat that connects in to Saad al Hilli through both the Rutherford Laboratory and SSST for which he worked. Qinetiq (see: incorporates multiple links to the US through the Carlyle Group and takeovers. It even had CIA Director George Tenet on the board between 2006 and 8! The firm has had significant security, hacking and personnel issues. Its operating bases were amazingly close to SAH’s at one time, although there is no overt direct link except through SSST.

    So now the link with MH370. A topsat satellite gets the “pings” for 5 hrs plus after last radar contact. All those Freescale employees off to China. Is it a CIA imperative to prevent satellite technology getting into “enemy” hands. You bet your bottom dollar it is. Apparently SAH had much more computer work info. than he should have. Yet the laptops were not taken? The only explanation if this was the object of the exercise, is that the attackers were satisfied information could no longer be transferred.

    Now we hear (ty BB) B777 had strange problems twice previously whilst coincidentally on the QL route. And that the plane from 2007 had fail-safe anti hi jack but conversely subject to external military over-ride. And that the “crashed into the sea” explanation might have worked were it not for the “pings” and the “military radar”.

    Could it be a CIA operation? First if it wasn’t hi jack or suicide, and there’s nothing it appears to support either, then State involvement becomes more likely, and of the possible states, the US most likely on the basis of both capability and motivation. It also has clear previous both on black ops, using aircraft to transfer kidnapped individuals and of intercepting civil aircraft. It also can furnish similar cases of aircraft that ostensibly disappear over its own territory. Nor is it averse, it has proved averse, if it considers it necessary to sacrifice innocent civilians in aerial attacks in Europe in the 80′s and elsewhere since with its drones. 9/11 proved it was capable of literally anything, even against its own.

    Globally it is arguably the most advanced in drone and intercept technology. The US Government has intimate connections and control over its main aircraft manufacturers, including Boeing. It has Indian Ocean assets to which a plane could be flown. It has a large naval presence in the Indian and Pacific Oceans with fighter and awacs.

    From a strategic point of view China and Russia are holding hands and form a formidable and only opposition to American/Israeli plans in the middle east (Syria/Iran) and eastern Europe (Ukraine). It must therefore be of primary importance to limit the ability of both to control and utilize space. Particularly when military conflict is becoming increasing likely. (Syrian fighter shot down over Turkey today, military manoeuvres on the Russian?Ukrainian border!)

    In respect of wreckage photos, and in search, it is noticeable the US appears to have taken a “back seat”. The satellite photos are apparently provided by Australian, French and Chinese equipment NOT US although it must have the means. Further it was reported the US had actively WITH-HELD the information/intelligence that was available to them. They have released no radar information from Garcia that must have registered if a large plane had flown that abnormal route.

    Then there are the anomalous sightings and events: the two security men from the Maersk Alabama and its cargo. The removal of Ukrainian gold by plane to the US. Reports of low-flying civil aircraft over Pacific Islands. The announcement of a passenger plane with fighter escort on the eastern seaboard of the united states all in a corresponding timeframe.

    All this and a satellite/aircraft related killing in Chevaline that neither the French or the British are prepared to unravel because of the international ramifications and I think you have a pretty strong circumstantial case that this was a CIA organised black op. But then, as James will no doubt tell me in no uncertain terms, what do I know?

  135. or fowl even! (oh dear slip of the brain)

  136. The latest events have me asking what were the recent arrests about?
    The Annecy police must have had this guy on their radar so why arrest in Feb 2014?
    If the plan was to run down the non-investigation until people like us died ofF from year after year of murky misinformation, why arrest anyone? Let it lie?

    * Were the French responding to outside pressure to provide results?
    * Did they have a local tip off, perhaps as a result of the release of the e-fit?
    * They didn’t appear to really have anything on him in the end. It must have been a long shot to bring him in and sweat him without having anything concrete – The guy was on the job, he knew how that would work. So why not sweat him quietly? Why have Maillaud announce it to the whole planet, if there was a strong likelihood nothing would come of it?
    * Why did Maillaud get back on his Cheval(ine)? Didnt he retire from the case last Autumn at the press conference?
    * Did they wait until the municipal police had fired him so as to distance the authorities from this suspect? The dismissal charge was pretty unbelievable. It wouldn’t be brought against anyone who was generally towing the line, hard to prove too.
    * Was this a way of bringing him in line – giving him a scare – so as not to give up something he knew? (He doesn’t appear to have been charged with the arms trafficking they were boasting about) If they reliably needed his silence though, why not just suicide him?
    * Maybe there are others that are being sent a message
    * Perhaps people in the forces played some part of this operation back in 2012. (Police and Forestry?) Perp(s)were known to the French and the cover up was part of keeping their name out of it.
    * Perhaps the Nazi cop got carried away, stopped the Al Hillis to give them some old fashioned racist hospitality, SM intervened and he snapped, blew SM away then, since he may have ID’d himself, he had to take everybody out. His right wing friends got him extracted and that was what the cover up was always about? Something I have reluctantly toyed with but cant quite buy.

    I predict that these arrests will be the last chapter in this mystery for a long time. MH-370 has already sucked some life out of the issue here at CL, even though there is significantly less info on that than this, and will likely remain so.

    Maybe we should spend 50 posts summarizing the data and outlining the various categories of solutions from most to least likely, as some have already provided.

  137. Intp1, with regard to your speculation on whether that last arrest of ED was meant to “send a message” –

    Bluebird on the previous page (can’t go look for the comment now, but it was in response to my query) has laid out some possibilities, using this line of deduction.

    ED, he suggested, could have been the one supplying the Luger, so he knew.

    The builder – Fillion-Robin filed for bankrupcy last year. perhaps helped along a bit for supplying undesirable time “data”, necessitating the famous 3:15pm picture at Drousard which then meesed up everything.

    The murder at Lathuille is another “curiosity’ with possible tie-in.

    Then later, a strange attack at FBM offices, the outfit that published those pictures.

    BB may be right on all or part, but I liked the way he strung it all together.

    And I agree with you, Intp1 – there is great interest in making Chevaline away. Even here, among dedicated conspiratorialists, interest wanes when a still greater mystery comes along, like MH370. Now conveniently ditched in the Indian ocean, one of the deepest and remotests parts. Just like Chevaline was “ditched’ and buried in fog.

    Actually, whether the case goes away completely into the cold files or not, depends on whether the british desire it to disappear. As you know, Tim V and I believe that there is every indication that whatever happened in Chevaline irked the brits no end, and they (whoever ‘they’ are) have every intention of needling the French periodically (and probably whoever else was involved).

    Unfortunately, that’s really ALL there seems to be pushing towards a resolution of the case. Mollier’s family has little interest, it seems, in finding out anything, and the Al Hilli family – well, the sister got the kids to look after and perhaps the quid-pro-quo was to not press too hard on resolutions.

    The absolute silence of the british regarding their investigations is really a scream for attention, even as the french ‘bungling’ of their side of the investigation has a ‘made for the cameras’ theatrical feel about it. A scream and a laugh – that seems to be all the Al Hillis and Sylvain Mollier deserve from the PTBs. With only a few conspiratorially-minded, somewhat querrelous individuals, thinly spread the world over to care. And even they can only keep it up so long.

    Quite the tragedy, really.

  138. ver at the Natural News site, there is an article on MH370, and how past news stories will soon be scrubbed…sound familiar?

  139. Proposal:
    In the spirit of the title of this string, and specifically to provide for those children, a summary of possibilities, if and when they want to find out more, without wading through, just at this site, 26,000 posts.
    I.e we create a summary, a list for comparison of the reasonable, candidate solutions – Outlining Pros and cons.

    We could put it in a shared file, with responsible contributors filling it in as each possibility is reviewed. Or maybe there is a smarter method? Later we could talk to Jon about somehow publishing it here or linking it within this site. Goal, to have ready in weeks rather than months?

    Marlin, Tim V, Im asking you (and any other serious contributors) if you are interested in helping to implement and shape such an initiative, which for me personally would represent some kind of closure, pending significant developments.

  140. Now that we’re hearing about Inmarsat satellites (, I would like to point out the other 1990s technology used to track ships:

    Ironically, Saad al-Hilli worked for SSTL, which developed satellite systems to tap into the AIS system.

    One of those satellites was launched into orbit in July 2012, with payload performance testing completed by mid-October 2012. As we recall, the incident at Chevaline occurred on September 5, 2012. The exactView-1 (EV-1) satellite was expected to begin full commercial operation in November 2012.

    From the Guardian article above:

    “After its creation, Inmarsat’s maritime role rapidly expanded to providing connectivity for airlines, the media, oil and gas companies, mining and construction in remote areas, and governments.

    Privatised at the end of the 1990s, it was floated on the stock market in 2004, and now focuses on providing services to four main areas: maritime, enterprise (focused on businesses including aviation), civil and military work for the US government, and civil and military work for other governments. The US is the largest government client, generating up to a fifth of its revenues of about £1bn annually. The firm employs about 1,600 staff.”


    This is how you get things done.

    Just had an email back from a “well known French regional newspaper”.

    I informed them that “it would appear that someone was using an obituary photograph of a deceased person publish (under copyright) in their newspaper”.

    You’d never guess what they said !?!?

    They said…. “they wish contact the proprietor of the site to exact the IP address”

    They didn’t inform me of the action they wish to take…but the reply was rather swift !

    Ya shouldn’t use “dead people” as avatars ! Maybe Ken can inform us of waht action they take…. or Jon may do that ? Or Craig ?

  142. @Jon

    Can you inform us when “a French newspaper” contact you with regard the usage of a dead persons picture by “Ken”.

    Dying to find out how French media laws work….when requesting IP addresses.

  143. Jon, just for the record – the rest of us could care less what avatar Kenneth uses. We care about content of posts, that’s all.

    Furthermore, that particular photo we are not even sure belongs to Frederic Brun, who was reported killed in a strange car accident not long after Chevaline. This particular photo could have been included in the obituary as sort of an “inside” code to individuals in the know – to go along with a rather starange poem, on which many here spent hours trying to figure out. When it comes to Chevaline, nothing is what it seems, and we definitely do not know whether that particular photo ever belonged to one, Frederic Brun, or was imported from somewhere.
    Hope no effort will be spent on silly requests by any poster here, whether or not they take offense to some other poster.

    As for posts and posters, several in the past put up posts that were blatantly offensive, or deliberately pick fights with others, and there was quite a bit of spam too (hardly a surprise given the length of this thread and the subject matter). By rights, it is those posts that should be removed, for propriety’s sake and to keep things as ‘clean’ as feasible. Little tiffies between posters are best ignored – or at least that’s my preference..

    I am not sure, BTW, that it is illegal or even wrong to use a picture of deceased individuals as avatar. For example, how about a photo of Queen Victoria? after all she is and has been for quite some time quite deceased. What about princess Di? or Richard the III? or perhaps someone to be cherished as a memorium?

    Anyways, best to ignore, is my recommendation.

  144. Intp1 – 10:15am. I think that’s a great idea and am willing to lend a hand. A summary of all that’s gone on and the different theories proposed would be a great contribution, IMO. Hopefully between several of us, we can maintain a certain amount of objectivity 9and, of course, civility), whether or not a particular piste is anyone’s favorite. the non-favorites have their uses too, after all.

    I have, for some time been actually collecting some of those theories but it’s not in a readable or easy format yet (haven’t had the time). My list included even a few theories I felt had merit from MZT people, like Max’s (who did contribute the novel and original “double trip” concept). It most assuredly includes a couple of versions of the “extraction” theory, for completeness sake.

    I also agree that this is a good time to embark on such an effort, given the current lull with nothing new happening, even as the “authorities” seem hell bent on releasing as little information as possible.

    One suggestion: in the past, Lars, on MZT collected a matrix of known facts about the principals on that blog (there was some argument, I recall on whether to “copyright” that; may be they did something because at the moment, it is not visible, to my knowledge). I have independently, for a time, prepared something similar (but using information primarily from this blog) in the form of a matrix, but didn’t finish it (time…again). I could dust that off and toil a bit to complete – at least with regards to the key personalities. This could serve as a kind of “prologue”.

    Personally, I wish we could combine forces with Max and Lars, now on Deadzone, but reckon that may be complicated, as we “evolved’ on different blogs with different outlooks.

    I know Q is a whiz at finding lost comments and other information and of course, bluebird is the resident research department for all things that go far and wide into individuals’ histories and connections. He may not be too inclined though for the laboriousness of a summary effort, but surely won’t mind if we use the results of his research as data points.

    Tim V and NR have been quite engaged on the Disappearing Aircraft thread. I’ll see if i can “ping” either (assuming they got their SATCOMS “on”).

  145. @Marlin 12:24am
    Agree wholeheartedly – like you say I couldn’t care less. However I do find personal attacks, threats and bulling offensive.

    (btw I don’t think CM, Jon etc are in the business of disclosing posters details without being forced to. This site is hosted in The Netherlands (where online privacy is protected and even big media can’t get their way in getting sites blocked for copyright reasons) – I suspect there is a reason for that choice of hosting!)

  146. @ Marlin
    27 Mar, 2014

    Any input on format?
    My thought was a spreadsheet, to keep it simple.
    Here are some ideas for headers of columns:

    *Candidate Solution
    *Evidence for
    *EXPLAINS only if
    *Does not explain or Evidence against
    * Evaluation Score/Grade of likelihood of idea taking into account evidence reliability/probability/corroboration

    The ideas could be organized in general category groups e.g. Lone Nut, Intelligence Operation etc.

    There could be other tabs listing the whens, wheres, whos for reference.

    At this moment this is brainstorming with normal brainstorming rules but personally I do want to keep it simple because I don’t have the time to help organize anything too cumbersome and complicated.

    Anybody else has ideas at this time, please pipe up.


    27 Mar, 2014 - 11:16 am

    This site was moved to hosting in the Netherlands to avoid British libel law:

    The hosts never taken pages down due to any libel threat,, but I don’t think they’ve ever been asked for server log details.

    This site has no special security arrangements; normal server logs are kept. Traffic is unencrypted (ie. http not https) and thus can be read en route. The DNS chain involves companies in the US as well as the EU, so you have to assume that the NSA can make a list of every page you visit:

    It’s also possible to work out the e-mail address you submit from the Gravatar traffic; this is a weakness in Gravatar.

  148. Marlin

    All I can say is….

    If I was a family member and saw the photograph of my son or brother, being used in such a way….then I likely would be “none to happy”.

    You know what “the French” can be like. A tad “touchy” about such things.

  149. James, one of the points I was trying to make is that the photo MAY NOT be of the deceased person. Yes, it was in the obituary but you may recall (I think you were around then) of the huge discussion we had over the strangeness of that obituary. The photo may be emblematic of the weird things going on with Chevaline – we here – and on MZT at the time – and on david icke – could never confirm it was Frederic Brun.

    Just to jog memory further – it was said then that Brun was in the hairdressing business, like Lydia Ringot, Mollier’s ex-wife. I do recall pointing out that the photo did not look like very hairdresser-like – stated as one who has gone to not a few hairdressers. There was something way off about it for me. My hunch was that it was one or the other – either he is in the hairdressing business OR that’s his actual photo. Not both.

    I thought at the time that’s why kenneth decided to use that photo as avatar – as a reminder that nothing is/was as it seems and that someone was/is playing games with us all. I don’t think it was meant as disrespect to the actual individual who may have passed away, whoever it was that died in that accident.

    I understand you don’t like kenneth Sorenson. While some of his posts do raise eye brows here and there (when he wanders a bit off on one of his tangents) he could also make himself quite useful (remember? he used to import comments and information from CM into DI, when people were worried they were messing around with news items and scrubbing information off the internet. And vice versa – he’d alert us to things posted on that blog as well.

    Let it go James. In truth any of us (myself included) would be considered a bit peculiar for even keeping up with Chevaline after all this time, so personally I try to stay away from throwing stones at glass houses. The conspiracy theorizing “business” attracts all types – that’s just the way it is. If your pilot friends knew of your little hobby here, for example, they’d probably raise some eye brows too. Not to mention my own friends, family and colleagues.

  150. Intep1, 11;10Am.

    like the spreadsheet idea. I’ll comment a bit more later when time permits.

    In the meantiome, one question n- how and where can we post the spreadsheet so that it is accessible easily while maintaining everyone’s preferred annonimity? I think there’s a web site for that – but personally I never tried this before.

    The idea should be that people can add information and/or question it – but also I believe it’d need someone(s) to have override editorial privileges. Just to make sure there are not too many pointless tangents and/or messing around with the information to make it unwieldy.

    Ideas/suggestions welcome.

    Where the heck is Tim V? surely not gone to the south Indian ocean looking for debris, I hope….

  151. The photo is of the late Frederic Brun you just need to know where to look to proof it

    There is a difference between Frederique and Frederic – usually between 1 and 4 inches long when flacid

  152. For what it’s worth, I think it’s illegal in France to take & publish someone else’s photograph without permission.
    So therefore using an image as an avatar,without permission,probably is too.

  153. Katie,

    What’s in France stays in France. I am aware they have somewhat peculiar attitude to copyrights and public disclosures but this blog is not published in France or by a Frenchman. neither is David Icke. And kenneth is not french per his own admission, and many of us are neither. So whatever. If Brun or family members do not wish that photo to be used, they should be the ones to say so, whoever and wherever they are (not that anyone from Chevaline ever talks about anything, do they?**). As far as I can see it is public property, once published. Perhaps if someone objects to use of the published fascimile as avatar, they should step up and prove that it does indeed belong to said dead individual, and make a legally binding request to prohibit its use. By all means, I would love to hear any requests/opinions that the late Frederic’s family and friends might have.

    DDT, too criptique for me. How about a little hint? what I said was that the photo is EITHER of Frederic OR he is not a hairdresser, because the two do not correlate so well. But yes, most of us here have failed to connect the photot to the individual, though I do vaguely recall there was somewhere a picture thought to be of Brun that we looked at. Can’t remember the time frame though and this blog is way too unwieldy by now to search through.

    ** Note in passing; i think we may be excused for being a bit sarcastic when it comes to family members of deceased people in Chevaline/Ugine. We have seen absolutely not the slightest evidence that anyone in Sylvain Mollier’s family ecares that much that he met such a violent end, and/or have ever lifted a finger to help find the perpetrator(s). For a relatively well off family like the Schutz’s they should have put up a reward, if only for appearance’s sake. But perhaps they – like all the good people of Ugine/Chevaline – they couldn’t be bothered to as much as say a single good word on his behalf. At least Frederic (not Frederique!) got a half-way decent – if enigmatic – obituary. What did Sylvain Mollier get? a dry looking note about the funeral. Not a single word of praise or sorrow.

    So we suspect that Frederic at least had a friend or two. Certainly Saad Al Hilli had several friends who spoke well of him. But Sylvain? not one! I always found that rather puzzling. If a mere philanderer be he, his death from unnatural causes still deserves an epitaph or two. No one should be that forgotten. Sometimes I get the feeling that the only ones who care a hoot about either Sylvain or Frederic are us, online detectives and conspiracy buffs. And that i find kind of sad. Quite so.

  154. @katie – you may be correct – but that is in France – not The Netherlands where this site is hosted, or even Denmark where the image may have been posted from.

    Assuming the image is their copyright, does anyone really image a French media company will spend money trying to enforce copyright, on a image that has no real commercial value, in The Netherlands. Take a look here if you want to see the official Dutch attitude to the internet:

    To my mind this smacks of mock outrage to try and get petty revenge on another poster because of a personal dislike. (for clarity I’m not suggesting you, Katie, are doing this)

    For the record:
    1) I usually disagree with most of the views posted by Mr Sorensen.
    2) I don’t advocate violating copyright
    3) I don’t advocate using photos of living or dead private individuals without permission

  155. “It turned out [Thailand] actually bought the satellite from the French (EADS). This satellite (“Thaichote”) was purchased and is managed by GISTDA, Thai’s space agency. But the technology is the same as one that powers the French satellites that provided images of the “12 pieces” floating in the ocean reported a few days before.”

    Above from a comment elsewhere. The French have superior satellites? Or the best Russia has are monitoring Pussy Riot, US ones are watching Miley Cyrus and satellites of the UK are all tasked with tracking paedophiles and roma who might possibly just maybe have been within 30 miles of Our Maddie some long years ago in Portugal.

  156. @intp1 – Have you considered setting up a wiki?

    Would be an ideal platform for what you want to do.

  157. @Marlin
    27 Mar, 2014 – 8:36 pm

    So, again Im open to ideas from anyone but my idea would be to keep document(s) on a sharing site like google docs. Im not a big fan of google recently but they are free and stable.

    We could discuss each candidate solution here publicly, and canvas for input. We can also ask for ideas that people have for solutions or that they may remember from 10000 posts ago or from other sites.

    From the input and their own ideas the editors can add the data in the “Evidence for” and “Only if” etc. fields and rank the ideas for likelihood.

    This would be during construction of the document. Anybody could view it but a few people (3 ?) would have editing rights. There could also be a private sandbox version for work in progress.

    The selection of editors is up to the existing ones. It would not be an elite club and not be the only source of ideas, rather functional in that editing work has to be done and also subjective voting on ideas. It looks like Myself and you at the moment (I agree that TimV would be good if he wants to (for his grasp of the timeline alone) but it should be based on demonstrated analytical contributions, integrity, minimal belligerence and most importantly, the highest degree of certainty that they are not “water muddiers”.

    The rankings are arbitrary, subjective and arguably not needed but if we create a ranking system of likelihood, say 1-10. if an idea doesn’t even reach the lowest ranking of say unlikely (estimated 1 in 1000) but not impossible, it isn’t recorded. The rankings should be an average from votes of the editors. Keeping in mind 2 opposing concepts: a) That the true solution could easily be an unlikely one since after years of discussion we don’t have a clear favorite. b) We don’t want to waste limited time on crazy, unsupported by anything, theories.

    When the document has reached maturity with most ideas exhausted, discussed and ranked, we can either leave it on the share website or, I have noticed that CraigMurray has some document links in another subject string. We could ask Jon if this string could have such a document posted.

    Getting the editors in touch and maintaining privacy is tricky, but I have some ideas on it. Each one would have to supply one e-mail account.

  158. Bleb
    28 Mar, 2014
    Re a personal Wiki
    Yes I heard you could do that but I know not how it works. I will look into it.
    Thanks, do you have practical experience of one?

  159. I’m afraid that the likelyhood of this succeeding is very small. If ten people were committed to this, it might succeed. But we only have Marlin and Intp1 committed to this, so the chances of this succeeding is very small. But Intp1 can start by translating that video that Marlin didn’t understand. That’s a start. Intp1 likes to translate and he has time on his hands- so: Go on an translate1. This is also a confidence building measure. When you have translated this piece that Marlin didn’t understand, he will have the required goodwill to engage in the proposed page.

    But if you’re goimg to do it, I propose using Google.sites, where everyone with a google account can contribute, and the administrator — say, Intp1 — can at any time delete inputs. But very fewq will be interested, so there is no reason to fear any vandalism. This is always the problem, when people set up individual websites; There are 10 billio0n websites in the world, and the very reason that we are assembled here, is because there are others. If you go on you’re own, there really will be no other than Intp1 and Marlin. I’m not saying this to deter yoy, but in order to knock some realism into your

  160. Bluebird

    Here’s a very interesting BBC documentary from 2011 about the braking of ‘Tunny’, or the German Lorenz dechyphering system. It’s the first time I ever hear of this,- and indeed a full account was first given as late as 2006 – so that might explain why you, Bluebird , also never have heard of it.

    The remarkable thing is, that the British were able to warn the Russians about the impending Battle of Kursk – how the Germans planned a pincer-movement, and the complete order of battle! Soi the Russians weere ready – and from there on started the 2,000 kilometer retreat all the way to Berlin. I assure you, I thought I knew everything there was to know about WW2, but this is the first time I hear it. Because it was a secret – pretty much until 2006, when the first book by Jerry Robert‘s collegue appeared.

  161. Intp1 – Google document share is effective and relatively easy to use, though my experience is limited on the details. the main issue i see is that there is this aversion to Google these days due to privacy issues.

    Wiki, as suggested by Bleb is an option – I never used that one either and have to look into the details of how easy it is to use. Of course, it’ll have the same privacy issues as Google. From cursory reading it’d also seem that the best features on it are available for pay.

    I know there are other options available, some more secure than others, but need to take a bit of time to research and think through the platform issue. Perhaps over the week-end.

    Regarding editors and editing – agree with all that you say – 3-4 would be a good number — we may lose some potentially good help due to the need for an e mail, but I don’t see that as a big problem. Your criteria for editing as pointed out are right on the money, but willingness to lend a hand may be the biggest issue. As I see it, it does kind of boil down to analytic types who care to dig a bit through past suggestions and scenarios and can keep their own personal preferences under control. Do you think there’s any merit in asking among the ex-MZT people whether any would like to participate? especially if we don’t have enough volunteering from here? I liked both max and lars – for their willingness to plow through a process and ability to stay focused. That despite the fact that I disagree with the outcome – and was never able to decide whether the preferences shown and reluctance to consider scenarios more broadly were due to an agenda or just a personal preference for certain type of mystery modeling.

    regarding criteria for ranking: I can put some thought into that as I’ve had some experience with risk modeling and failure analysis. no need to make too complicated, but the devil is in agreeing on details of likelihood criteria.

    Take for example the “extraction” scenario. It has several strokes going for it, including dearth of photos of some of the principals and, of course, the weirdness of the aftermath, with Zeena found so much later and Zainab recovering so very fast from such grievous wounds. My estimate, disregarding motives, the likelihood based on “conflict with known facts” would be, say, about 40-50% (meaning, there are only a couple of OBSERVABLE facts that would be difficult to explain, such as the embalming and the children). However, if we include the criterion of COMPLEXITY as a weighting factor (ie, the many who’d have to be in the know, plus need for “actors” etc), the probability will have to be significantly cut – to something just under 10% (that’s my own estimate). Which is low but not negligible.

    For this part of the exercise (ranking and likelihood probability), I could make some specific proposal pretty quickly to put out there and see if people agree.

  162. Sorry ppl to have neglected this thread. I’m afraid the other and inquiring minds has soaked up all my time concentrating on the lost plane. It seems to take me hours to produce anything or even just read the posts. Having been asked to transfer, I immediately got attacked by whoever goes under the name of “James” in a particularly nasty and personal fashion. He adopted the same tactic on here from the beginning so I regard him with considerable apprehension, aware that as one of the most prominent web sites, agencies must apply at least a watchful eye if not an active participation.

    Now you may or may not have seen bang up to date reports that Grenoble prosecutors (this time) are investigating the photo leaks which apparently came from police sources. Strangely when I tried accessing the afp ref. it came up “oops!” Ifound it elsewhere as here:

    BMFTV are in their sights from whom other outlets copied before they withdrew them under pressure I believe. It appears the French police were seriously embarrassed by them. I’m afraid I was one who drew obvious conclusions from them that disproved police stories, in fact strongly suggest a police fabrication that they have never explained. Typically authority tackles the truth providers rather than the criminals that put out lies.

    It would be ironic wouldn’t it, if the only prosecution after 18 months of intensive police work was the person who allowed us to see the post-killing scene. There are of course many more telling photographs that as yet have never seen the light of day. I hope the gendarmes won’t take a leaf out of the Metropolitan book of tricks. Who did release that little tid bit btw. Not mor tit for tat I hope.

  163. We now have it on record that the two latest photos showing the moribund Mollier were police photos. On the assumption if he lay there untouched the other victims were still in the car (including or excluding Zeena depending on whether they were taken afternoon or next morning) the car occupants certainly show. This may of course be simply light reflection/refraction and the slumped position of the bodies. If it was morning it would have to mean that they left Mollier lying there all night – a bit unlikely i would have thought though the undertaker vans going up and back in the morning seems to support it. So if afternoon photo the rather chilling thought that Zeena was still in the back. Note in contrast to late morning photos by DM there are no white suited gentlemen which tends to support the idea it was before they arrive. In contrast someone has taken the trouble to mark out all observed bullets and/or used casings.

    After all this in relation to organising stuff, one has bound to be specifically the proven lies of the police and why they considered it necessary. For example their claim shooting started at the top of the layby when the aerial photo flatly contradicts and rules it out.

    I really need to go to bed.

  164. that was meant to be DON’T show. I’m tired….

  165. NR 1:28am “The French have superior satellites? Or the best Russia has are monitoring Pussy Riot, US ones are watching Miley Cyrus and satellites of the UK are all tasked with tracking paedophiles and roma who might possibly just maybe have been within 30 miles of Our Maddie some long years ago in Portugal.”

    That was very funny NR. Your wit is sorely needed to lighten up these weighty happenings and dastardly deeds lurking in the shadow of our civilization.

    Why, it could even all be true!

  166. Tim V – regarding the photos and BMFTV: it’s been my theory that the photos were in the files and were made available to the british investigators as well, which is the side that released those two Mollier photos. Just like the family picture at drousard.

    This would fit rather well into the tit-fot-tat theory.

    In which case the french police investigation into the “leak” will come up with not much on the French side, though they might pick someone to scapegoat just to show they are doing something.

    The French are being all upset IMO is because they have to be – if the inter-agency conflict theory is right (and Tim V’s I believe is in agreement on this), then these photos represent a very serious “shot across the bow” – a warning to the french that they are being watched.

    That’s the context I think that would fit your point above, Tim V. Because they indeed serve to disprove rather conclusively, that the shots started at the top of the car park. Basically giving the lie to all the recreations done by Le Parisien and other publications, upon cue from the French police. Furthermore, the photo from above of the scene with Mollier moribound shows the much disputed car tracks rather clearly. They DO NOT match with the BMW’s final position, no matter how hard people try to fit those in. Yes, katie thought the car could have executed a circle AND THEN backed into the final resting place in a straight line. Alas, that just is so unlikely as to justify dismissing the possibility out of hand. Absolutely no need to back in this way – what under a hail of bullets from a “lone” gunman, and with those who suggest such as scenario not allowing for the presence of another car at the martinet perhaps blocking the way. Sure, one could suggest that there was somehow an attempt to pick up Zainab on the way, if she was still outside, but that’s grasping at straws.

    I am positively amazed that there are still people who continue to maintain that there was a reverse manoeuver executed by SAH in the face of all evidence and logical reasoning. Oh well…

  167. @Intp1 – “do you have practical experience of one?” (wiki)

    No, but I’d be willing to try.

  168. @Intp1 – I’ve now read your and Marlins other posts – you seem to have it well in hand with Google docs. I think keeping the editors to a small group is the way to go and those you propose would be best

    Some observations:

    You have touched on on trust and privacy. I think this might be the biggest problem in initially setting this up.
    Trust – One trusts the Intp1 one reads on here but how does one know the “Intp1″ who contacts you is the “real” Intp1?

    Privacy – There should not be a need for people to publish their real email addresses on here.

    Maybe you are ahead of me on this but my thought would be that the “editors” would agree who they are on here and then establish private contact maybe by using a disposable email service such as

    1) Intp1 invites, say, Marlin to be be and editor and establish private contact
    2) Intp1 publishes a disposable email address on here for Marlin to use
    3) Marlin publishes a disposable email address on here for Intp1 to use
    4) You both wait for an agreed time period during which the real Intp1 and the real Marlin could challenge any fake email posted by a “false Intp1/Marlin”. (I realise this process could be spoilt be those with malicious intent)
    5) After this period you respond to the corresponding disposable email addresses with your private email plus a check phrase or number.
    6) You each post on here the check phrase or number you have been given.
    7) Again you wait for a agreed time during which the real person could challenge the posting as being from a fake. (again open to maliciousness)
    8) After this time period you each have the private email of the other with some degree of confidence the person you are talking to is the same person that posts on here and you have not made your private email public.
    9) Repeat as necessary to add more to the group.

    Maybe I’m just paranoid and the above is way too complex or flawed in concept.


    The other thing you may want to think about is “take down” or censorship
    by, for instance, the French authorities or other interests. I assume Google Docs would come under U.S. law. I know the USA snoops but do they censor? As touched on regarding avatars, The Netherlands is an excellent place to host content in that respect.


    Invite the ex MZT people to contribute by all means (I don’t think they will though!) but don’t invite as editors. I do think their theories should be considered and included even if they don’t directly contribute.


    I’m going to lie down in a darkened room after that long post!

  169. Having trouble accessing these threads over the past few days, and cannot go beyond the first page of comments in the Disappearing Aircraft thread. Comments and pages, like aircraft, also disappear.

  170. Bleb 2:44am – that was quite a Tour de Force! thanks for the effort – hope you recovered by now Thanks for the referral to Mailinator – didn’t know about them.

    I checked a few options as alternatives to Google Docs and I must say that, so far, Google seems much easier to use for a novice, has various features including spreadsheets and word documents, and is free for the basics. Also, Google does not care all that much about strict “copyright” or “privacy” rules as certain European countries, so we would probably be able to use the information gathered from any number of sources. For the sake of courtesy, I would however like tto make sure Craig has no objections to such a summary based primarily on information gathered and suggestions made on this blog. He doesn’t have to bless it but it’s only fair to ask.

    The downside: one has to have a gmail address to go with Google docs which would then be the one attached to all Google interfaces. Needless to say gmail is as gmail goes – and Google has already said it reserves the right to trawl through the e mails for commercial purposes. But I am not sure that would be such an issue when the number of users is small.

    To your question Bleb, the US snoops on pretty much everything, but it does not seem to censor all that much. Why should it when it’s easier to just sweep it all up for a rainy day? still, this could be an issue.

    I do agree that a non-US server/provider would be the best, and if one could find one in eg, the Netherlands, all the better. The problem is there are quite a few purported services out there, and they each have different capabilities. If anyone could recommend a specific service that’s both reliable and useful that would be great.

    My suggestion would be that if we wanted to embark on this summary exercise sooner rather than later, then Google doc would be a good place to start. I’m pretty sure it could be all moved elsewhere later, if a better option materialized.

  171. Q, 8:11pm – too bad you have trouble loading. No issues here. This one thread always takes a while because it’s so voluminous.

    Any thoughts on the Summary exercise Intp1 suggested?

  172. @Marlin – Yes you are probably right, better to make a start than try for perfection.

    BTW – for mailinator you would need to use the cloaked address feature otherwise there is no security.

    “Mailinator has introduced a “cloaking” feature in which every recipient name has a cloaked identifier starting with “M8R-” and a string of characters. Mail may be sent to either the original recipient name or the cloaked name. Mail will only go to the mailbox for the original recipient name, and the cloaked address will always have an empty mailbox. For example, the recipient name wikipedia (“”) will also have the cloaked address M8R-as16dx (“”). Mail sent to the cloaked address M8R-as16dx will go to the destination mailbox wikipedia, while the M8R-as16dx mailbox will always be empty. There is no way to translate the cloaked address into the destination address.”

    Also on another subject: I’ve suspected for a while it is mini-bar raiding (not deprivation) that is to blame!

  173. Bleb, you may be right about the mini-bar. Coupled with company deprivation…

  174. Bleb & Marlin, I have just seen your replies, RE: photos in France. My point was that apart from the moral aspect, using & ‘publishing’ a photo of a French man without permission will surely have copyright . But if Sorrensen wants to take that risk it is his problem.

    I’m not sure what it is you want to achieve with this new site INTPL, does it need to be as complicated as this discussion would seem to be making it ?

    Do you simply want to store information with easy access for ‘members’ with a simple search engine ?

    What is wrong with a WordPress blog & using their ‘pages’ ?

    This site is so basic, the search facility hopeless with no edit & WP offers much more.

    They don’t have to be public.

    I ran a private site for ‘like minded’ people which worked well for 6 years,all you needed was an invite & a password.

    Privacy was through a Gmail address dedicated to the administrators for the site.

  175. Katie,

    Re Intp1’s proposal – it’s not a blog but an organized summary of the different scenarios, hopefully ranked according to criteria still to be developed. The way I understand it, it won’t replace this blog, but rather organize the many bits of information gathered in one place. read his entry and you’ll see where it’s going.

    I liked the proposal because i too see a need to have the bits of information sorted in one place and mostly, the different scenarios laid out in something like a common basis. We all have favorites and we all made suggestions. But given the unwieldiness of this forum with nearly 20,000 posts, good luck at finding anything by anyone.

    As for participation, Intp1’s idea was to have anyone contribute who wants to, but keep the number of editors to a relatively small number.

    Right now, we are still talking about the format and the platform. I thought Intp1’s idea of laying out the information on a spreadsheet is what’s needed to do the first organization, which means a platform is needed with that capability. Once it gets going it wouldn’t be all that complicated, but there are privacy issues to sort out as well as manageability.

    I doubt all that many will be interested since this involves some work, and also require applying a fair degree of impartiality. Not an easy task by any means.

    Intp1 – correct me if I’m wrong on any of this.

  176. @Q 30 Mar, 2014 – 8:11 pm
    “Having trouble accessing these threads over the past few days, and cannot go beyond the first page of comments in the Disappearing Aircraft thread. Comments and pages, like aircraft, also disappear.”

    That’s weird. All 6 pages of Disappearing Aircraft work for me and apparently others who are active. If you have another browser installed try that. Or try clearing all browser caches and cookies.

  177. Marlin, yes I understand that…but not spreadsheets !

    My thinking was not that people write blogs, but they could post comments in the blog format which means photo’s,HTML,edit,a good search facility & nesting comments too .
    Yes it could be used as a sort of annex….all the things that cannot be posted on this site can be posted & read over there & archived.

    WP,have so many extras,but still free,like menus & pages in addition to the main body of a blog if everyone is free to post it makes a lot of sense,as long as people stay with topic .
    The other alternative is administrators take & archive all from here & no one else has input but a read only site,is that the idea ?

    I agree about the work, at one time I was running three sites at the same time with a variety of posters, so I don’t underestimate that.

    Another thing I found that there were lots of promises for help at the start but like all voluntary work,it usually ends up with just one doing the most,hence my self imposed retirement.

    Then there’s the problem of agreement amongst administrators…………..I’d say three at the most.

    However I do think it’s a good idea, something is needed to enhance the experience of this sleuthing lark . ;-))

    Any way that’s my two penneth.

  178. I took a long weekend so here is a summay of my response to various contributors

    There is this aversion to Google these days due to privacy issues. Agreed, but I ask myself how much privacy is needed? Anything that will be on the summary is already public on this site.

    Bleb/Katie: A subject specific Wiki: So, as I look at that I see that this consists really of setting up a web site with various Wiki like options. That is an option but wasn’t my original intention. Because, I don’t envision it as a discussion site with an improved database capability that takes up the baton from here. I see it as a way of summarizing the relevant discussion to date as an addendum, or annex plus summary. So that in years to come the essence of these discussions in terms of where we got to regarding solutions is summarized.
    Researchers, amateur and pro, personal connection or no, don’t need to struggle so much with, what the hell was going on in this blog? Did they get anywhere and where? If there are some further developments like the recent arrests, they could be added but if not, then it serves as a précis, a monument if you like of the core work here.

    Katie, same applies to a WordPress site. Maybe it is because I have been involved with setting up my own business site and a site for a local club recently, I know how it can suck you in to much more work than you envisaged. A spreadsheet is nowadays a basic tool that is not beyond most and gives some un-refined search-ability but also has inherent organization, so that folks can browse through with easy understanding of the logic of how it is laid out. A word-processing file is harder to organize with continuous updates and can be subject to an over-run of waffle. Only the editors would need to know the ins and outs of how it is operated, but we could also have other folders with backup data, e.g. photos, video, links at the time, lists of people, items, other relevant data, maybe a timeline document. I personally don’t want the vehicle to be “private” since no-one would be able to find the information.

    Ex-MZT people: might be an option but I have not hardly looked at the other sites so would require a lot more research by me to get comfortable.

    Marlin: The devil is in agreeing on details of likelihood criteria. I hear you and have felt your anticipated pain before but this isn’t a system requiring procedural consistency or has regulatory oversight, It is openly and admittedly subjective; at the end the day i) Most of the inconsistency will come from personal gut feeling ii) This will be dampened by averaging of evaluations iii) The likelihood grade is not that important to the concept. Perhaps only important when deciding if a concept makes the cut for being included.

    “COMPLEXITY” the Occam’s razor factor could/should be taken into account. If a number of situations need to be true, Possible if this and this and this need to be true, that naturally multiplies the none-likelihood, just like rolling more & more dice to get multiple sixes.

    Privacy – There should not be a need for people to publish their real email addresses on here: Agreed absolutely, I agree that temporary e-mails could be a useful part of establishing contact but, I believe, in order to log into Google docs you need a consistent e-mail address, so for the Google docs option, each editor would need an alternate, non-temporary e-mail. The e-mail address alone would be known to the other editors (and Google- so that might be a downer for some but see top of post) This process would also be considerably aided if this site provided a small amount of initial cooperation but I don’t want to get too bogged down in this at the moment.

    Censorship by Google: Personally I don’t think this string and it’s digestibility is currently that important to those who would ask Google to suppress but there would be backups on each editors machine AND, if we could eventually get a file to be click and open-able on this site, it would have all the safeguards that apply here.

    Craig has no objections? I think if he did he could say so or make it known in some way (my intention would be to start with contacting the site privately) but maybe it’s a question best not asked publically & directly?
    To me this is just like summarizing public articles from newspapers. It is public domain information and it is for public consumption without a commercial end?

    So, Having opened this up, I am thinking to start to narrow focus on some aspects.
    Google docs seems to be emerging as a least worst option.
    Marlin, you and I seem to be the most enthusiastic so far and I am comfortable with you especially in the most important criteria. There needs to be at least one other but maybe we need to start to build something more concrete to prove the concept to others. Do you. a) Reciprocate in terms of comfort level and b) Are you happy to try to establish some anonymous,off-line contact?

  179. straw44berry

    31 Mar, 2014 - 3:18 pm

    Just an idea, on Icke you could exchange e-mails using Private Messages.

  180. straw44berry

    31 Mar, 2014 - 3:20 pm

    *e-mail addresses

  181. Just doing a bit of “catch-up” here Marlin
    24 Mar, 2014 – 7:19 pm. Ref. your and my view on the tit for tat thing just one point I shared somewhere but will repeat for your, and anyone else’s consideration – I’m not sure it’s that significant but there we go. Hogan Howe was in front of the Home Affairs Committee (I think) and about the same time that incredibly embarrassing information slipped out about destroying all the Yew Tree documents in 2003. What we don’t know is why after ten years the information slipped out NOW. Was it only recently discovered by our own recent Savile enquiries or was it some other source. Don’t suppose the note to the papers was in French by any chance???

  182. Sorry Intp1
    25 Mar, 2014 – 10:15 am only just seen your suggestion. Good idea but not sure we are set up for co-ordinated stuff. No doubt both the British and French teams did this months ago if they were at all genuine. I wonder if they compared them? The police are in a hundred times better position what is reliable evidence and what isn’t to start with. Just take the BMX5 story. There is no obvious reason why this was presented as a fresh appeal on Crime Watch six months later, if it was the forestry guy who reported it right at the beginning. Of course another six months was to elapse before we were told it WAS the forestry guy who had seen it on Panorama. Up to then it could have been anyone. Not until then had the foresters been directly linked time wise at least to the killings. The French could have denied the story but they didn’t. Perhaps they hadn’t worked through the consequences I described at length. Of course there is a difference to us knowing and it being GENERALLY known for which the press have to publicise it. The implications of the Panorama programme were never explicitly developed and as far as I am aware no paper did either. Was this under direction or just sloppy journalism. The fact that Maillaud has never explained how TWO sets of forestry vehicles and staff either side of the killing and passing it, could be regarded as being uninvolved one way or another is deeply suspect.

  183. Bleb
    28 Mar, 2014 – 9:16 am that would seem to be a very good idea to get the ideas out there. As a techno-phobe I have no idea how to do it. Have tried amending subject matter on a totally different subject without success. And presumably there would have to be some precautions against it being subverted or incorporating factual errors. If you know how good luck to ya.

  184. Intp1
    28 Mar, 2014 – 10:31 am one possibility might be to just “round robin” a draft document by e-mail to trusted contributors on a strictly personal and confidential basis. There are some who have proved themselves to be reliable and “uncontaminated”. Others less so. The circulation list would somehow have to be agreed on a consensus basis I suppose. If peoples names were going to bee attached they would all have to be able to approve the final document. Tricky at a distance but possible. Like a snowball rolling down the hill, it could grow organically. Everyone could have a distinctive type script and tag so at a glance it could be seen who was contributing or suggesting amendments, to what. The final editing would probably have to be left to one (you or Marlin?) before being posted. The thing might start with a basic template of theories 1 2 3 etc to which people might add pros and cons. Just a suggestion.

  185. Thought I would re-post this one from the other thread as it summarises a point i made way back about both SAH and SM. Make of it what you will but at the end of the day people do things for REASONS, and presumably the more risky the “thing” the more persuasive the reason. I hope “ben-scott” doesn’t mind!

    Ben-Scot NON-Collaborator
    29 Mar, 2014 – 5:35 pm”Katie; As you know, the pilot had exploitable weaknesses.

    “A 1998 document describes typical foreign intelligence recruitment against citizens with access to sensitive technology.[5] “Hostile intelligence services begin the agent recruitment process by scrupulously collecting information on persons who are connected to industry, RDT&E laboratories, government institution staffs, military bases, and design organizations”. A candidate for recruitment usually fulfills the following criteria:

    They must be in a position to provide information of real use to the hostile intelligence service, either to steal or copy S&T information, to communicate secret information by word of mouth, or to recruit new agents.

    There must exist motives by means of which an individual can be recruited:

    Financial considerations/greed (transcends all other motives)


    Blackmail/hostage Situations (used in USSR but very infrequently in United States)

    Appeal to emigre’s national pride

    Exploitation of an emotional involvement

    False flag approaches

    Exploitation of an American’s naiveté


    Ideology (which is no longer the motivation it was during the Cold War; the Soviet service changed its emphasis to concentrate on sympathy for “persecuted” elements of American, or other targeted, society)

    Of course Cointelpro has a mirror image.

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