Defend Stephen Sizer

by craig on January 12, 2013 9:41 am in Uncategorized

Stephen Sizer has been active for many years in areas of humanitarian concern for the Palestinian population. I was with him on my recent trip to Baghdad, and I am convinced he is a good man.

Stephen is a Church of England vicar. He is under huge pressure at the moment as he is under a formal complaint from the Board of Deputies of British Jews to the Church of England on a charge of anti-semitism. This is very serious indeed and could lead to the loss of both his job and his home.

The essence of the long complaint is that he has posted links on his website to other websites which contain anti-semitic material. It is not alleged that he has linked to material which is itself anti-semitic; but that elsewhere on websites linked to there is such material.

That may or may not be true. But in the real world, the idea that in posting a link to an article you are endorsing every other article (which in practice you cannot have seen) on a website is nonsensical and would make much current blogging practice impossible.

That Stepehn is not an anti-semite and has not knowingly endorsed anti-semitism, I have no doubt. But what worries me is the growing bravura with which all critics of Israel or supporters of the Palestinians are charged with the – rightfully – damning slur of anti-semitism.

Just as the government of Israel has lurched to the far right, so “official” Jewish institutions in the UK have abandoned their once notable liberalism. The Board of Deputies used to deserve high respect and be a pillar of reason. It is astonishing to me that it has launched this absolutely unfounded attack on an Anglican priest. The Jewish Chronicle has lurched so far to the right as to be off the scale. There seems to be such a disconnect now between these institutions and the views of the Jewish people I know that I hope this state of affairs cannot last.

A list of those who have written in support of Stephen Sizer can be found here.

The formal process in which Stephen is now enmeshed is not only extremely unpleasant, it is also extremely expensive. He has to employ lawyers for his formal defence. A cardinal rule of this blog is never to ask for money, but I ask you now to donate for the defence fund.

Electronic transfers can be made to account name J Moodey, Co-op Bank sort code 08-93-00, account number 80407856. Cheques should be made out to J Moodey and sent to Mr S Leah, c/o York PSC, PO Box 423, York YO24 4WP.

It is important that we do not allow the victimisation of those who try to defend the Palestinians to proceed apace. Please do donate anything you can; if you feel able to add a comment saying that you have done so, that might encourage others.

Tweet this post

267 Comments

  1. @ Kempe 13 Jan, 2013 – 11:51 am

    You seems to have forgotten your original claim. Allow me to refresh your memory …
    You claimed earlier in this thread:

    “A quick glance at the evidence the BoD website reveals a link to “iamthewitness”, this site has a clearly advertised section on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion which Sizer must’ve been aware of.”

    I pointed out:

    “”Well actually the home page is huge – 31 full-page scrolls top to botttom – and contains 4 columns packed with different media and links. My ballpark estimate is 350 different links. If you scroll down 4 pages, your screen will display a jumbled mix of 20 different photo, video, radio and text links. One of them is a 3 liner saying:

    Text To Audio
    The Protocols
    Stomach Turning Listening

    I could only find this one link among 350 by using Ctrl+F to search the whole page for the word “protocol”. I invited you to honestly tell us how long it took you to find this “clearly advertised section” and by inference suggested that Sizer wasn’t necessarily aware of it. You have responded by pasting a link to a Google Search page. What has that got to do with whether or not “this site has a clearly advertised section on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”?

    I guess you concocted a claim to make Sizer look bad, then when called on it, realised you couldn’t back it up and dishonestly tried to shift the grounds of your claim. I’ve read about this blogging technique somewhere, now where was it …?

    I await your accusations of anti-Semitism next.

  2. “Franky Boyle Comedian Criticised Israeli attacks on Gazza. Within months people found his jokes to be offensive and before long he was booted off Mock The Week. ”

    I think you will find people found his jokes offensive long before that.

    Probably because his jokes were offensive.

  3. Ahem… A jury has found the suggestion that Frankie Boyle was forced to quit “Mock the Week” as not true and libellous.

    They also found that it was not true that he was a racist.

    The Daily Mirror was ordered to pay him £54,650 by the jury/

  4. ‘Made it happen’ is my own damning conclusion Cryptonyme including i must add using Israel’s nuclear destruction expertise.

    In a world of hypocrisy and state secrets I admit it is hard for me to be totally objective and offer irrefutable proven evidence. My exposure to ‘Eyes only’ cables has developed a seasoned cynicism although not without hope for a better, more resourceful and beautiful world.

    As an example ‘Not for South Africa Eyes’ cables opened my eyes to the pretense and deceptive interplay that underscored Britain’s relationship with South Africa, just to maintain key links esp. gold supplies.

    While apartheid was deemed abominable and criminal in SA, America and Britain could not take the risk of South Africa becoming a puppet state of the Soviet Union. [Josef Luns 1984)

    It follows while NATO gave the United States Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic (SACLANT) authority to plan for the protection of shipping lines in the Indian Ocean and the South Atlantic, including surveillance and communications, South Africa, having developed a naval communications centre in Silvermine, with equipment from West Germany to monitor the movement of Soviet ships, was in contact with the British Navy and the United States through Puerto Rico.

    Abdul Minty, Director of the World Campaign against Military and Nuclear Collaboration with South Africa in Oslo discussed military or technical contacts between NATO and South Africa at a private meeting with SA foreign minister Botha; ad interim Israel collaborated with SA to modify, simulation test and finally detonate a nuclear weapon near the British annexed Prince Edward island. Is that the Pinnacle of Deceit?

    Obviously nothing of this was public knowledge at the time, Mr Edward Heath and his counter-austerity inflation bill had gone and with Labour running scared, Thatcher waited to further exploit the British people and South Africa to boot.

  5. Jonathan Fryer. MI something or other? Obviously keeping an eye out on general activities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Fryer

    See Nigel Chism the treasurer of IPRA to whom Fryer is a ‘consultant’.

    http://uk.linkedin.com/in/nigelchism

  6. @N_ 12th Jan 11:33am

    This link is a bit old (sorry). I know that there are non zionists in the Israeli parliament, but I cannot find any links except for this one…

    http://newvoices.org/2009/02/12/0036-4/

  7. By clicking on Kajima Partnerships LinkedIn takes you to Stockley Park, a business park at Heathrow where M&S, Embassy of Canada, Glaxo Smith Kline, Apple and Canon are occupiers.

    http://www.kajima.co.uk/case-studies/stockley_park/

    Kajima themselves are in to PFI and PPP projects. These are some of their investments. Note the predominance of government buildings, schools and hospitals.

    http://www.kajima.co.uk/case-studies/

  8. Spelling mistakes. Sorry!

    beautiful / beneficiaries?

  9. @”A Node”: fwiw, I clicked on the iamthewitess link too: I scanned the first page for about twenty seconds and saw little of immediate concern, then paged down and spotted the link to “The Protocols” (i.e. the PoEoZ), followed by a section entitled “The Complete Synagogue of Satan”, etc. I didn’t need to use an automatic searching facility. I had the page open for less than a minute; it didn’t take too long to get the gist.

  10. Private capital won’t invest other people’s money (which is all they have to gamble with) in anything in the UK, unless the returns are stupendous, failure or loss guaranteed impossible by taxpayer indemnity. It’s like some extended warranty scheme, payments to which amount to many times more than the cost of simply buying several of the covered appliance, as spares. The average consumer would run a mile from schemes, just as you think our politicians are cunning greedy con-men, they’re proven, not even that but simply thick or think we are.

    I thought Heath’s dire legacy in economics, culinating in the greatest bank robberies ever was bad enough, but had he not started the ball rolling, Thatcher would have been a pushover and quickly made up for lost time. Come back Harold Wilson, even Harold MacMillan, all is forgiven. The only requirement since for the top political job is for the would be PM to be a clueless manipulable lame duck.

    see: Well, how did we get here?

    Surprised at indications that Balls’ of all people ran Blair like a clockwork toy, counter to the obfuscation that he was Brown’s protege, Balls was toying with them both all along.

    I’ve checked the link for incidental Israeli content, “No matches found for ‘rotocols’ but there is this: “Three months before John Smith’s death in 1994, the then shadow home secretary Tony Blair went on a trip to Israel at the Israeli government’s expense. Blair was sympathetic to Israel, had shared chambers with the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, Eldred Tabachnik, and had joined the Labour Friends of Israel on becoming an MP. On Blair’s return from Israel, Gideon Meir, from the Israeli embassy in London, introduced him to Michael Levy, a retired businessman who had become a major fund-raiser for Jewish charities. Levy was ‘dazzled by Blair’s drive and religious commitment’ and the two men became friends. A month later the leader of the Labour Party, John Smith, died, and Blair became leader.”

    Here’s BoD again, he fair gets around does BoD.

  11. @ Macky, enjoy, I have posted your link on to the EDL’s Jewish contingent’s FB page, let them eat sugar.

  12. Nextus

    There is plenty on the iamthewitess site which indicates a hostile attitude to Jews and nearly all of it would be deemed anti-Semitic by BoD. That is not my point.

    I believe Kempe selected PoEoZ as the basis for his attempt to prove Sizer guilty as charged for the same reason as the BoD included it in their ‘evidence’ against him – its an easy smear. You are automatically an anti-semite by association if you can be connected to it. Unfortunately for BoD and Kempe, the connection in this case is so tenuous as to be laughable.

    I would be interested to hear if you agree with Kempe’s description of the link as “a clearly advertised section [….] which Sizer must’ve been aware of.”

  13. Richard Armbach

    13 Jan, 2013 - 6:45 pm

    re Henry Forrester 9.08 pm 2013

    Isn’t it about time we just told them to “go fuck themselves”

    Henry I think it probably is.I guess the only difference between you and I is that I am arriving at the conclusion with the most extreme reluctance.

    Craig that last mathematical test was a bit of a stretch. Keep them simple please.

  14. @ A Node (3.08pm) : fully agree with your analysis of Kempe’s post. But don’t worry about him accusing you of anti-semitism, he won’t – he’s too clever to do that.

    Kempe’s posts deserve careful reading – some of you have called me a shill and a troll, but I suggest that it’s the Kempes who are the dangerous ones on here. A man worth watching.

    Why does the handle “Kempe” always bring Colonel Richard Kemp to my mind? Must be old age.

  15. Totally off topic trivia which will be tomorrow mornings breakfast trivia.

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/pictures_the_queen_sees_the_funny_side_when_bentley_refuses_to_start_after_sandringham_church_service_1_1791021

    Its to be seen whether Stephen can call upon the gods for some divine intervention in his case against the BoD, cause by the sound of it he hasn’t got much support from his own quarter.
    Bentley’s? ….pah.

  16. “Kempe’s posts deserve careful reading – some of you have called me a shill and a troll, but I suggest that it’s the Kempes who are the dangerous ones on here. A man worth watching.”

    I think the reason you get called a troll is because you spend so much time slagging of the other posters and so little time discussing the issues.

    You get called a troll because you behave like a troll.

  17. O/T

    I suspect it might not be long before questions are asked about Aaron Swartz’s death and whether it was a genuine suicide or not.
    He was being persecuted by the DoJ for (admittedly illegal) downloading of academic papers for which the actual authors weren’t getting a red cent anyway. But there’s more:

    “Police found the body of the 26-year-old in his apartment in New York City borough of Brooklyn on Friday, said a spokeswoman for the city’s chief medical examiner.

    “Brooklyn’s chief medical examiner ruled the death a suicide by hanging, but no further detail is available about the mysterious death.

    “Last year, Swartz openly criticized the US and the Israeli regime for launching joint cyber attacks against Iran.

    “The blogger was also vocal in criticizing Obama’s so-called kill list and other policies …

    “Swartz was critical of monopoly of information by corporate cartels and believed that information should be shared and available for the benefit of society.

    “Information is power. But like all power, there are those who want to keep it for themselves,” he wrote in an online “manifesto” in 2008.

    “Based on that belief, the computer prodigy founded the nonprofit group DemandProgress.

    “The group launched a successful campaign to block a 2011 bill that the US House of Representatives called the Stop Online Piracy Act” (SOPA).

    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=63561

  18. Although Rev. Sizer disavows any anti-semitism on his part, I do not find his disavowals credible.

    Here is a quotation from a previous e-mail regarding his blog:

    My experience in reading Rev. Sizer’s blog is that he does not show much sensitivity towards Jews, despite his disavowals of anti-Semitism.

    He always lays the blame for the Israel/Palestine problems squarely on Israel.
    It seems he fails to speak up in support of Jews in the face of anti-Semitic occurrences in your country, as at some recent football matches where there appear to have been anti-Semitic incidents on the part of some fans during matches — whereas, he was quick to speak up on behalf of Muslims after the appearance and dissemination of an anti-Muslim film originating in the USA.
    I have never heard or read on his blog any defense of Jews in the face of official anti-Semitic propaganda disseminated by many Muslim countries such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Pakistan, the UAE, Iran, et al.

    I’m also querying where Rev. Sizer gets funding for all the trips he makes, whether to the Holy Land or other parts of the world — this, to me, seems strange on the salary of a priest/vicar — I’m wondering whether the funding is not coming from some pro-Palestinian organizations when it comes to his frequent visits to the Holy Land.

    My thoughts on the Palestine/Israel problem is that there are just too many people, like Rev. Sizer, meddling in this situation, trying to dictate to Jews and Israel how to behave, while, very often, these same people fail to hold other countries to account for the human rights abuses these countries commit, e.g., (China/Tibet; Turkey/Northern Cyprus; Turkey/Kurds).

    My view is that there is a need for disciplinary action by his Diocese.

  19. Gandolfi
    13 Jan, 2013 – 11:12 am

    Cut out the early morning vodka or whatever.

  20. YoMiryam,

    That is truly pathetic. I had no idea that there had been recent anti-semitic behaviour by football supporters – as I didn’t know about it, I haven’t condemned it either, so do you claim that makes me an anti-semite?

  21. Doing nicely.

    Goldman bankers set for bonus windfall as profits rise
    Goldman Sachs bankers are poised for a bigger windfall when bonuses are handed out later this month after the US investment bank enjoyed a stronger 2012.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9797957/Goldman-bankers-set-for-bonus-windfall-as-profits-rise.html

    Network Rail executives in line for £900,000 bonuses
    Network Rail executives will enjoy bonuses of up to £900,000 each next year as passengers struggle to cope with above inflation fare rises.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/9799123/Network-Rail-executives-in-line-for-900000-bonuses.html

    and earlier in the week

    Gas boss forced out with a golden goodbye: As families face ever-rising bills, energy chief is walking away with up to £13m

    Phil Bentley is boss of British Gas which has doubled its prices in 7 years
    Windfall enough to pay typical family’s gas and electric bill for 9,500 years
    Bentley will leave company later this year as part of management overhaul

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2258695/Phil-Bentley-As-families-face-rising-bills-energy-chief-walking-away-13m.html

  22. YoMiryam Hasbara calling! Hasbara calling!

    A little late on in the proceedings though. Must keep up.

  23. YoMiryam

    When I look at Stephen Sizer’s web site I find what you say is not true.

    “But without wishing to minimise the horror of that day, or its collective effect, many, many, more people have, and do, die on a daily basis in other countries ruled by tyrants, oppressed by repressive regimes or torn apart by civil war, especially Christians. The list of countries is lamentably long and sometimes closer to home than we would wish – Somalia, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Tibet, North Korea and Turkey, Egypt, Palestine…”

    Israel has a great deal of influence, influence with governments through lobbies and funding, influence in the media and a huge military might. The only thing that Palestinians have is right on their side. There is a huge imbalance, it is very much a David and Goliath situation. So if the commentaries of people like Rev. Sizer seem unbalanced to you it is because they have to be, they have to be to redress the huge imbalance which exists at the moment.

    I must say that Goliath keeping whinging “it’s not fair he’s got a sling” doesn’t do much to further their cause in my eyes either.

  24. An anti-semite is someone who hates someone of semitic origin simply because that person is semitic.

    I argue, therefore, that it is not anti-semitic:

    To deny the Jewish holocaust.
    To deny the uniqueness of the Jewish holocaust.
    To compare Jewish suffering with that of other peoples.
    To point out that Jews figured prominently in the Bolshevik Revolution.
    To claim that AIPAC calls the shots in the US’ Middle East foreign policy.
    To opposed the existence of the State of Israel.

    Such statements or claims may be controversial or dead wrong and could be motivated by anti-semitism but of themselves are not anti-semitic. Refusing a Jew (or Arab) a job because of their race is anti-semitism. Jailing or attacking a Jew or Arab because of their race is anti-semitism. Prejudicial behaviour is the key to anti-semitism.

  25. YoMiryam: I didn’t hear you speak out against alleged antisemitism in recent football matches. That makes you an anti-Semite, pal, by your own logic. And you didn’t even have the decency to denounce yourself.

    By the way, most of the blame for the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict belongs squarely on the side that’s done the most harm, killed the most people, and occupying the most land I’d say. Wonder which side that might be?

    In the face of zero opposition in US media to Israel’s continued aggression and encroachment of land (not to mention occupation of existing land, building on occupied land which is illegal under International Law, etc. etc.), does Sizer have to add to condemnation of Arabs and lend even further support to Israel? In order to be credible, in your twisted view, I suppose he should do nothing else.

    Israel has – after all – the absolute subservience of America’s political and media class. I mention America because that’s what really matters when it comes to these things, and you are obviously a pro-Israeli, American based stooge.

  26. @YoMiryam – “My thoughts on the Palestine/Israel problem is that there are just too many people, like Rev. Sizer, meddling in this situation, trying to dictate to Jews and Israel how to behave, while, very often, these same people fail to hold other countries to account for the human rights abuses these countries commit, e.g., (China/Tibet; Turkey/Northern Cyprus; Turkey/Kurds).”

    So your logic is unless one criticizes all that should be criticized, then one should not criticize anything at all. What a load of bullshit. No single problem would ever get solved if every discussion on an issue was mangled and diluted with commentary about every other problem. But your comment is not really about this issue because we can see very clearly that you’re just a mouth piece for Israel online propaganda. The real purpose of your comment is to diminish public support for Sizer so that his good work in support of Palestinians will be frustrated with legal problems and professional ostracision through character assassination. How do you pro-Israel flunkies sleep at night?

  27. Excellent interview with Chomsky from AJ, linked through RawStory:

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/13/noam-chomsky-blasts-obama-he-has-no-moral-center/

    Keep catching these. We’ll be missing his takes on current events all too soon, I fear… men rarely live this long. :(

  28. I read earlier that Semetic is a linguistic grouping which applies to the Palestinians and not most Israeli Jews. If so, it is like anti-Gaelic meaning anti-COE in historical conflict between Britain and Ireland. The Irish hostile to British control would have been charged as ‘anti-gaelic’ as Palestinians are charged as ‘anti-semite’ In opposition with their foe they would be coined anti-themselves. Amazing.

  29. Innocent bystander

    14 Jan, 2013 - 4:36 am

    “My experience in reading Rev. Sizer’s blog is that he does not show much sensitivity towards Jews, despite his disavowals of anti-Semitism.”

    Hasbara….Lacking sensitivity does not constitute anti-Semitism. Why do you require “special” sentiment?

    “He always lays the blame for the Israel/Palestine problems squarely on Israel.
    It seems he fails to speak up in support of Jews in the face of anti-Semitic occurrences in your country, as at some recent football matches where there appear to have been anti-Semitic incidents on the part of some fans during matches — whereas, he was quick to speak up on behalf of Muslims after the appearance and dissemination of an anti-Muslim film originating in the USA.
    I have never heard or read on his blog any defense of Jews in the face of official anti-Semitic propaganda disseminated by many Muslim countries such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Pakistan, the UAE, Iran, et al.”

    Hasbara….Israel is the occupier, not the occupied. Why would someone whose religious convictions include ministering to the downtrodden, include praising the perpetrators of said downtrodding? Are you lobbying Rev. Sizer for equal time and attention? Why would he defend Israel’s actions and/or policies of apartheid and suppression of a people he ministers to?

    “I’m also querying where Rev. Sizer gets funding for all the trips he makes, whether to the Holy Land or other parts of the world — this, to me, seems strange on the salary of a priest/vicar — I’m wondering whether the funding is not coming from some pro-Palestinian organizations when it comes to his frequent visits to the Holy Land.”

    More Hasbara….Christian outreach programs are going on all over the world and are funded in a variety of ways. So what if he did receive pro-Palestinian support group money? Do you want to dictate that? Pro-Palestinian money is just as spendable as Christian money….unless you have a problem with Palestinians?

    “My thoughts on the Palestine/Israel problem is that there are just too many people, like Rev. Sizer, meddling in this situation, trying to dictate to Jews and Israel how to behave, while, very often, these same people fail to hold other countries to account for the human rights abuses these countries commit, e.g., (China/Tibet; Turkey/Northern Cyprus; Turkey/Kurds).”

    Even more Hasbara….Israel’s behaviour has come to the attention of the world, not just Stephen Sizer, whose passion and vocation it is to ease the suffering of the oppressed and offer the world his faith based support and ministry.

    “My view is that there is a need for disciplinary action by his Diocese.”

    Discipline for what? Practicing his faith? Why? Because he’s not Jewish? If the CofE fails to support Rev. Sizer and capitulates to this Zio-facist vendetta, not just Stephen Sizer, but all of Christianity and all it stands for is in deep trouble.

    Posting the “wrong” links on the internet isn’t a basis for this action. Choosing who to minister to isn’t a basis for this action. Practicing one’s faith isn’t a basis for this action.

    Some of these “keyboard hasbara warriors” like Hoffman, Millet, Levick, and Arkush(BOD mouthpieces), have taken this internet propaganda war way too far. I often wonder if there’s a correlation between how loud and often anti-Semitism is screamed and how inhumane and indefencible Israel’s policies are? Maybe it’s just a case of “a good defence being a good offence”?

    A final thought….my Grandmother had a saying that seems applicable here…”Hate the sin, love the sinner”. How it applies to Israel is this: Her policies are the sin, her people are the sinners. This warped misuse of the label of anti-Semitism is just that…a misuse. Stephen Sizer doesn’t hate Jews. He just doesn’t support Israel’s policies nor condone her conduct in the world. The love he has for his fellow man is apparent, no matter their race or creed.

    Maybe an investigation into the persecution of Rev. Stephen Sizer should be commenced?

  30. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 4:44 am

    re YoMyriam

    Anyone can have as much anti-Semitism as they want. All they have to do is quit speaking English, adopt a private language in which the expression means what you mean by it and abracadabra….. Just substitute YOUR concept of it for THE concept of it……..

    Stand on any random street and ask a hundred random people what they understand by the expression and I would bet Hull City’s chances of winning the Champions League that Israel wouldn’t get a mention.

    When the Board accuse Rev Sizer of anti Semitism they have quit speaking English.

    I have read Rev Sizers major works twice just to double check. Not the merest slightest hint of a negative attitude to Jews in many tens of thousands of words….anywhere. Rather the opposite.

    Rev Sizer is not the first, only or last victim of the intimidation he is suffering at the Boards hands.It has to stop. Sadly I think Metrognome is right, in that perhaps only a determined libel action from someone will do the trick.

  31. “”YoMiryam —– My thoughts on the Palestine/Israel problem is that there are just too many people, like Rev. Sizer, meddling in this situation, trying to dictate to Jews and Israel how to behave, while, very often, these same people fail to hold other countries to account for the human rights abuses these countries commit, e.g., (China/Tibet; Turkey/Northern Cyprus; Turkey/Kurds)”””

    Oh please, that “you’re always picking on Israel” whining is just so childish. Has it ever occurred to you that the Zionist state gets more attention than other crimes against humanist simply because it is given unconditional support by the Zionist occupied governments of USA/Canada/Australia/UK/France/etc. ??

    Your Zionist propaganda is exposed by the following “dictate to Jews and Israel how to behave”. “Jews and Israel” — How can you generalise about Jews when many many Jews are anti-Zionist and anti-Israel. Just like many Muslims are anti-Islamic terrorists.

    Trying to make Jews and Zionists and the Zionist occupying state of Israel is so crass and outdated now. It’s soooo 20th century.

    As soon as the Zionism is removed from Palestine so Jews, Muslims and Christians can once again live in peace the better! And my friend that is pro-semitic!!!

  32. I think any British politician who has sworn loyalty to another country should be barred from holding public office.

    It’s no wonder Cameron has no qualms about shafting the people of Britain if his loyalties are elsewhere.

  33. William Hague talking about arming the Syrian rebels.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_commons/newsid_9783000/9783755.stm

    Shouldn’t our government’s priorities be with our young people sleeping in shop doorways not overthrowing the enemies of Israel?

    Can’t afford benefits for the disabled but we can afford to supply Al Qaeda with guns.

  34. “William Hague talking about arming the Syrian rebels.”

    Ever since the North Wales paedophile ring story resurfaced after a two decade hiatus he has been hiding from the public. Occasionally his masters order him out of the darkness to point his pale, weak, feeble finger at Mr Assad, just as they ordered him to do the same with Gaddaffi. He then scuttles back into the darkness before anyone notices that he’s been creeping around. The media compliantly publish his latest nonsense without question and he lives for another day.

  35. Nevermind; “@ Macky, enjoy, I have posted your link on to the EDL’s Jewish contingent’s FB page, let them eat sugar.”

    Full kudos for that, but as suspected there’s no way they would let any negative link/comment last more than a few seconds on their page.

  36. O/T

    Production is stepped up in China for the Middletons’ Little Prince and Little Princess ranges.

    eg http://www.partypieces.co.uk/little-princess-napkins.html

    BREAKING NEWS:The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge’s baby is due in July, St James’s Palace confirms

  37. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 11:22 am

    There is not much in the way of ” they ” in the EDL Jewish Division. There never really was, and such as there was diminished further when Roberta Moore fell out with the EDL and pitched her tent on Victor Vancier’s Jewish Task Force porch. The real issue is the links and associations between these people and a wing of the Zionist Federation.The crazies in this wing were not strictly speaking members, the links are informal.

    The real horror is that the Bod, the ZF and the JC have long been in possession of all the facts and they have simply ignored these facts and indulged and tolerated this wing.

    So the Board complaining to the Church about the ludicrous alleged ” racism ” of Rev Sizer is not only wrong, wrong and wrong again it is hypocrcy of the highest order.

  38. Here’s the blog’s official troll and shill again (me, apparently).

    Lack of logic displayed by many of the above posts. Various people say “oh, don’t engage with Habbabkuk, don’t feed the troll and then he’ll go away”. But you don’t seem to apply the same logic when it comes to answering someone like YoMyriam.

    Or do you seriously believe you’re having a “discussion” with YoMyriam? That there’s the slightest chance of your arguments convincing her? You know your own position, you can recognbise YoMyriaml for what she is – so why the flood of posts addresssed to her?

  39. @ Fred (8.59am) : absolutely agree. Recently a Hungarian politician (admittedly a far-right one) called for Hungarian politicians who also had Israeli citizenship to be publically identified. Naturally, this caused considerable indignation in the usual quarters.

    However, I think the idea of publically identifying UK politicians and high level civil servants who do have dual citizenship (whether Irish, Israeli, American or whatever) is an excellent one, which could only bring greater transparency to the political process. Most foreign countries would probably have no problem with this either, I imagine.

  40. Habbakuk

    Your participation in comments on this blog is welcome.

  41. “So the Board complaining to the Church about the ludicrous alleged ” racism ” of Rev Sizer is not only wrong, wrong and wrong again it is hypocrcy of the highest order.”

    The links between the Zionists and the EDL doesn’t lower my estimations of the Zionists any, it does, however lower my estimations of the EDL somewhat.

    The IDF are using the children of Gaza for target practice in blatant breach of the terms of the cease fire and bulldozing Palestinian homes in the West Bank to make way for illegal Jewish settlements. Compared to the Zionists the EDL are veritable saints, if they have any sense they will sever all links with Zionism or they will be getting themselves a bad name.

  42. @YoMiryam,

    You’ve received a lot of criticism for your comments, but I for one would like to give you a big thank you.

    You’ve united this blog more than it’s been for ages. Old foes have put aside their differences to unanimously condemn your post. You have inspired a show of support for the Rev Sizer which he will find very gratifying and you’ve undoubtedly increased the number of donations to his fighting fund. The eloquent defence of the Reverend triggered by your comments must surely have swung the balance in his favour amongst the dont-knows reading this blog. The carefully composed rebuttals of your remarks have clarified my own thoughts on the matter greatly, and I look forward to using some of these new ideas in future arguments with Zionists.

    Thank you also for the clear demonstration of how the defence of Zionism relies upon bluster and threats, and how easily it can be destroyed by reasoned argument. It was helpful of you to point out that you had merely copied and pasted the bulk of your post from elsewhere, thus underlining the difference in commitment between supporters and opponents of Zionism. I am encouraged me to redouble my efforts in support of the beleaguered Palestinian people.

    Please post again.

  43. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 12:03 pm

    Koff

  44. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 12:04 pm

    @ fred

  45. Craig; “Your participation in comments on this blog is welcome.”

    Perhaps you should try engaging in a rational debate with Habbakuk to see if you still feel the same way.

    Richard Armbach; “There is not much in the way of ” they ” in the EDL Jewish Division”

    Just for clarification, the “they” I was reffering to, was to the controllers of the FB page.

  46. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 12:46 pm

    @ Macky ok thanks for the clarification

    Macky I am banned from Harry’s Place,CifWatch,BBCWatch,and Millet’s blog to name but a very few. It doesn’t bother me and I don’t bother trying to sneak back in on a change of user name.It just seems stupid to me to have a party line and run things so that people are just in effect talking to themselves. If someones idea of a blog is somewhere they go to for affirmation I am happy for them to get on with it.

    I think there is a case for saying bye bye to someone that is persistently hijacking the topic and wilfully hijacking the topic, abusing or threatening others and turning the blog into a zoo. Then the blog becomes worthless.

    On a cursory glance Habbakuk doesn’t seem to fall into any of those categories.And while rationality is good so is a bit of irrational emotion once in a while. Right Fred ? :o))

  47. On January 7, the Christmas day in Egypt, the Imam of the mosque in Tahrir Square area and many from his mosque walked to the church to visit and to celebrate Christmas with the Christians in Egypt.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CxTAOEkzUCs#!

    In Britain the EDL and BNP attempt to divide us with hatred and violence at a time when even mother earth is herself unstable with climate change and her resources depleted. When we pan out to the world view an irrational snap-shot of conflict appears framed by the show-downs between China and Japan as their warplanes tail each other, between America and Russia as their ships converge near Syria.

    Back in Britain discontent has passed germinating, a growing anger of government ineptitude is causing riots in Liverpool and in Ireland the cold cinders of unity are glowing once again. In these times we look towards the sun to dispel the shadows.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CxTAOEkzUCs#!

    The tortoise trusted the scorpion on his back crossing the deep river. They both died mid-crossing when the scorpion stung the tortoise. Before death the tortoise cried – why? – now we both will die. The scorpion replied, I had to, I am a scorpion.

  48. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 1:07 pm

    Nice One Angrysoba

    I love this song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSrusP5SZI4

    and I even more like this sorta kinda song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGgfuwbTmUM

  49. “However, I think the idea of publically identifying UK politicians and high level civil servants who do have dual citizenship (whether Irish, Israeli, American or whatever) is an excellent one, which could only bring greater transparency to the political process. Most foreign countries would probably have no problem with this either, I imagine.”

    The problem here isn’t dual citizenship. The problem is the politicians who in their younger days were very ambitious and would do anything to get to the top so they went down the crossroads and signed the pact.

  50. @ Craig : thank you, I do appreciate your comment!

    @ A Node (12.01pm) : an excellent, ironically polite and above all elegant and intelligent post, which I recommend should become a kind of standard reply for future hasbara posts like Yomiryam’s. By the way, I very much agree with the notion that much of this hasbara is a question of bluster and attempted intimidation; although I’m not exactly holding my breath, it would be interesting to see the reaction if people (falsely) accused of anti-semitism were to respond with a cheerful “yes, absolutely, and I don’t have much time for the [ here you insert your own preferred nationality or religious group] either”. Who knows, if enough people reacted thus and in sufficiently ironical mode, whether the air wouldn’t go out of this anti-semitism balloon very quickly.

    Finally, re my comment on the declaration of dual nationality, in practice this could be done easily for MPs through the Register of Interests. How to apply it to high civil servants needs a little further thought.

  51. Great choice, Fred!

    By the way, as I brought up the sad anti-Muslim bigot Brigitte Bardot recently, I think it might be nice to remember her in better days. With Serge Gainsbourg:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY9PY4r83p8

  52. Saw yours after posting mine, Fred.

    Of course, you’re right, there’s all the others as well. But I do think that someone who actually holds another nationality (or fails to renounce another one) has somehow gone one step further – if only symbolically – in terms of commitment to that foreign country. The other – and surely wider – category referred to by Fred are mere mercenaries in comparison. And making dual nationality a matter of compulsory public declaration and knowledge would surely send a salutary signal to the individuals involved.

    PS – come to think about it, why not make it a legal requirement that a politician or high civil servant should NOT have dual nationality? Nobody forces someone to enter politics or the civil service, after all.

  53. Habbakuk: Recently a Hungarian politician (admittedly a far-right one) called for Hungarian politicians who also had Israeli citizenship to be publically identified. Naturally, this caused considerable indignation in the usual quarters.

    Yes, it is quite natural when people get outraged by fascist parties such as Jobbik zeroing in on Jews or Gyspies in Hungary. Of course, for people like Jobbik, Jews and Gypsies are not “real” Hungarians.

  54. Thanks, Habbabkuk. I’m an admirer of your style too, usually.
    When you comment on the issue of the day, you are generally right on the mark, i.e. I agree with you :), awesome in your debating skills, and witty with it.
    I encourage you to stay positive and resist the temptation to be sidetracked into personality duels.

  55. @ Angrysoba : I take note of your comment, but fear that it’s an attempt to deflect the argument…..or even tar is with the brush of …anti-semitism :))

    Whether or not Jobbik is a “fascist” party (some would say it’s a nationalist party) and whether or not it considers Jews and Roms to be “real” Hungarians (it would argue that the jews and Roms have self-defined themselves as nationalities and so cannot complain if some see them as not being of Hungarian nationality), the suggestion made by the politician in question was that politicians should, in the interests of transparency, declare whether they had a second nationality or not.

    Needless to say this was immediately distorted into “all politicians had to declare whether they were Jewish”.

    Not quite the same thing.

    So to stay with the substance of my post, does Angrysoba think that my suggestion(please read it again carefully and do not distort it) has merit or not?

  56. I don’t think it matters where someone was born, it’s where their loyalties are that matters.

    I would have no problems with someone who emigrated to Britain serving in the government so long as they were serving British interests.

    Someone born and bred in Britain who has sworn loyalty to another country is a different matter.

  57. @Fred – quite agree (cf Professor Lindemann to take one example from the many). But in the case of an immigrant, let him then renounce his original nationality (where he doesn’t lose it automatically) as en earnest of his new loyalties. As to someone British by birth, well, the positive act of going out and formally acquiring a second citizenship would seem to demonstrate, ipso facto, that loyalties were at best …divided.

    To be noted that we’re only taking about (national)politicians and high officials in the service of the state; by reason of his status, we are not interested in the number of nationalities held by the man in the street, which is none of our business.

  58. * talking, not taking.

  59. From Medialens

    Is Oscar-nominated 5 Broken Cameras an Israeli or a Palestinian film?
    Posted by The Editors on January 14, 2013, 2:22 pm

    Jonathan Cook comments via his Facebook page on the story below:

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/oscar-nominated-5-broken-cameras-israeli-or-palestinian-film

    It is in itself quite extraordinary that Israelis are getting so excited about the possibility of winning the Oscar for best documentary this year after claiming as Israeli two of the five final nominations (more on that below). Both offer savage indictments of systematic malfeasance by Israel in the occupied territories. Gideon Levy notes the chutzpah here:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/chutzpah-for-the-course.premium-1.493568

    But equally outrageous is the fact that Israel is being allowed to take the credit for 5 Broken Cameras, a film shot exclusively by a Palestinian film-maker in his village in Palestine, as if it were a national product of Israel. We’ve been here before, with Israel selling felafel, humus and tabouleh to the US and Europe as Israeli dishes.

    The silver lining is that, if more people see 5 Broken Cameras as a result of thinking it is Israeli, it may reach the audiences who most need their prejudices being challenged. The downside is that that same audience may come away from the experience with the illusion reinforced that the making of such a documentary proves how democratic and tolerant Israel really is.

  60. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 3:51 pm

    The downside is that that same audience may come away from the experience with the illusion reinforced that the making of such a documentary proves how democratic and tolerant Israel really is.

    Except for the 5 broken cameras

  61. doug scorgie

    14 Jan, 2013 - 4:22 pm

    Zona Norte, why did you choose the name of a Mexican brothel area in Tijuana known for not only adult but also child prostitution?

  62. Thanks to Richard Armbach for the link to his “Hoffman Chronicled” page. In which he notes that Ise Liebler (intelligent version of and friend of Hoffman) is mentored by Jonathan Pollard, editor of the JC (which may explain the JC’s increasing hysteria))
    For your entertainment, Richard, if no-one else’s:
    http://www.jewdas.org/2011/07/stephen-pollard-uncircumcised/

    (I hope there’s nothing antisemitic on that site or both Craig and I will be excommunicated)

  63. Sky News have just had a Dr Peter Neumann on justifying the ‘intervention’ in Mali. He also demonized the ‘islamists’ there. No mention that we are supporting a ragbag of their military who took their power in a coup d’etat.

    His CV. http://icsr.info/about-us-2/staff/peter-neumann-director/
    Enough said.

    This is an example of what happens under the existing regime.

    http://lubbockonline.com/filed-online/2012-09-10/16-muslim-preachers-moderate-sect-killed-mali-en-route-religious-conference

  64. @Richard Armbach, I see we share a sort of badge of honour re Harry’s Place; deeply ironic that they are do deluded that they like associating themselves with Orwell, and even more ludicrously ironic that they use his “”If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear”, as their Site’s logo. ( I wonder if Angry Soba is still a regular there, as he strikes me as the sort of person who could never be banned from there !?)

    Anyhow perhaps I should have used “honest” instead of “rational” when referring to the problem of debating with Habbakuk, but for me it’s the same thing, because when a person continuously chooses to misunderstand or bizarrely distorts, it’s either a deliberate derailing tactic, or the person is unbelievably stupid, and it’s obvious to me, & at least four other regular Posters here (see the tail-ends of The Disappearance of Craig Murray & the The 3.2 Million Euro Lardon threads), that Habbakuk is not as stupid as he would like to appear.

    I note that on this thread Habbakuk is on his best behaviour so far, however I fear this is another shill debating tactic, which will soon revert back to usual troll mode, but I do honestly hope that I’m proved wrong.

    (Oh, yes Fred did come across as a bit irrational to me also, when I tried to debate the nature of “Hate” with him recently; apart from that, he seems like a nice guy !)

  65. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 5:48 pm

    Macky my experience here is recent and I note your greater experience of him. But we can only type as we see. Of course what we see can change o))

    And Fred is clearly on the sidw of the angels. I took his point.

    Harry’s Place is a racist cess pit coated with the flimsiest veneer of respectability.

  66. “(Oh, yes Fred did come across as a bit irrational to me also, when I tried to debate the nature of “Hate” with him recently; apart from that, he seems like a nice guy !)”

    So does it give you a feeling of superiority sitting there passing judgement on everyone?

    I’m starting to see why Habbakuk feels he has to tweak your tails now and again.

  67. A horrible example of the requirement for racial purity in Tel Aviv at New Year here.

    Shades of Kristallnacht?

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/disturbing-new-video-israeli-jews-assaulting-africans-tel-aviv-new-years-eve

  68. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 6:37 pm

    @ komodo

    Ha Ha thanks. I visit Jewdas but missed that one. Those guys are a hoot. The funniest bit of that one was the editorial in which the first letter of each word spelt out ” I am sorry Desmond will you have me back. ” Though I guess folks would need to know a bit of Pollard history to get it.

    I think you will survive linking to Jewdas though several of them did get arrested a while back for a stunt they called ” The protocols of Hackney ”

    Here is one for you…inspired by Jewdas. I have dug it out from a lot of stuff we have hidden because we want to keep the site as clean as possible for the moment. Don’t want visitors to be distracted from the immediate task at hand if you get my drift.It will be visible til noon Tuesday.

    http://hoffmanchronicled.wordpress.com/honathan-joffmans-application-for-chief-rabbi/

  69. Richard Armbach

    14 Jan, 2013 - 6:41 pm

    By ” clean ” I mean uncluttered

  70. Sorry Fred, but I always tell it as I see it; anybody giving a view on anything is passing judgement; that your defensive reflex has caused you to seemingly defend trolling is troubling; I repeat my last unanswered Post to you on the Hate topic, in a the hope that you can reverse my increasing unease that I may have been a bit premature in describing you as only just a ”bit” irrational:

    (@Fred, I’ve just remembered our little discussion on Hate which I rudely abandon due to New Year travels, and had completely forgotten about to now !

    “Well logically the ones that hated the Nazis feared the Nazis therefore they are probably expecting a knock on the door from the black shirts”

    Sorry, but that’s a cop-out; I repeat the scenario: in view of the likelihood of a campaign of threats & bribes aimed at those sheltering Jews, would you feel safer sheltering with those who professed to disliking the Nazis, or with those who were obviously filled with loathing & hatred for the Nazis ? In other words, who would be most likely to turn you in ?

    “If they hate Nazis chances are they hate Jews as well.”

    Very bizarre comment ! I thought that the opposite would be true !)

  71. “Sorry Fred, but I always tell it as I see it; anybody giving a view on anything is passing judgement; that your defensive reflex has caused you to seemingly defend trolling is troubling; ”

    We are here to pass comment on Craig’s blog entries not each other.

    In my book passing judgement on other users IS trolling.

  72. Since you all are keen on video’s this one has scratched up over half a million hits in less than a week, a slight parody on a very popular issue.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Znpt_Umixcs

  73. @Fred, “In my book passing judgement on other users IS trolling”

    Really ?; is this a very rational view to hold iro a Public Blog where Posters naturally will interact with each others views ?!!

    On this very thread you posted “You get called a troll because you behave like a troll” (directed at Habbakuk), so would it be fair to call you hypocrite as well as a bit irrational ?

    Perhaps it would be better for you not to answer, as you only seem intent on self-incrimination !

  74. Macky

    That’s right, Habbakuk acts like a troll when he’s slagging off other users and so do you.

    Do you understand yet because I don’t see how I can make it any simpler for you?

  75. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    14 Jan, 2013 - 8:28 pm

    Hey, don’t we have enough atavistic proto-humans to vent our spleen on? The word ‘troll’ is a semantic pit with plenty of offal to stew in it’s own juices. I guess it means what we want it to mean. Anger is a killer when it remains bottled up, so release it on worthy grudges. :)

    But, don’t quote me on that.

  76. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    14 Jan, 2013 - 8:30 pm

    Komodo…..howzit hangin’?

  77. Ben, are you anti-semantic or something? Disgraceful!

  78. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    14 Jan, 2013 - 8:46 pm

    God forbid, glenn. Semantics is my life.

  79. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    14 Jan, 2013 - 8:47 pm

    pretty pathetic, eh? :)

  80. @Fred, I’m actually persevering with this because a) we seem to mostly agree on topics, b) I don’t think you are a troll, but perhaps somewhat “confused”; so I feel a brief recap is needed; we recently had a little debate about the nature of Hate, here are the last few of the exchanges;

    _________________________________________________________________________________________
    Macky: “I rather suspect that those who successfully fought against Apartheid in South Africa, were acting from more than just a feeling of dislike.”

    Fred: “No doubt they were but that doesn’t mean that the feelings extended to hatred”

    Macky: “Let’s examine your absolutist position on this further: Say you were a Jew in Germany during the Nazi period, and you needed to go into hiding by seeking shelter with one of your German neighbours; those on the left, you know don’t actually like the Nazis, but the one on the right, you know for a fact detest & passionately hate the Nazis: who would you choose to protect you the most if the Nazis started to threaten or entice people to turn hidden Jews over ?”

    Fred: “Well logically the ones that hated the Nazis feared the Nazis therefore they are probably expecting a knock on the door from the black shirts. The safest place would be with the neighbours who just didn’t like the Nazis, less likely they will get a knock on the door and if they aren’t scared of them they have no reason to give you away.
    Avoid people who hate, they are emotionally unstable, no telling what they will do. If they hate Nazis chances are they hate Jews as well.”

    Macky: “@Fred, I’ve just remembered our little discussion on Hate which I rudely abandon due to New Year travels, and had completely forgotten about to now !

    “Well logically the ones that hated the Nazis feared the Nazis therefore they are probably expecting a knock on the door from the black shirts”

    Sorry, but that’s a cop-out; I repeat the scenario: in view of the likelihood of a campaign of threats & bribes aimed at those sheltering Jews, would you feel safer sheltering with those who professed to disliking the Nazis, or with those who were obviously filled with loathing & hatred for the Nazis ? In other words, who would be most likely to turn you in ?

    “If they hate Nazis chances are they hate Jews as well.”

    Very bizarre comment ! I thought that the opposite would be true !”
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    Now on the basis on your replies, I thought that your reasoning was a bit irrational, and rather evasive, especially as you never replied following my last post.

    Fast forward to this thread, and somebody (Richard Armbach) posting to me, makes an aside with a jokey “irrational” comment directed at you, & in replying to this person on the main point, I also add as an aside that on the strength on a recent debate between us, to me you also came across “as a bit irrational” but also added “he seems like a nice guy”. Your surprising reaction to this was to accuse me of acting “superior” & “passing judgement on everybody”, and suggesting that somebody that you have just previously judged as a troll (Habbakuk), was justified in his trolling !! And now you are equating me on par with Habbakuk and calling me a troll !

    Your over the top reaction reminds me of your “Avoid people who hate, they are emotionally unstable”, except that you seem to have proven that it’s irrational people that are emotionally unstable !

    I really don’t wish to take-up too much space on this thread discussing this, and although you may not think you are the slightest bit irrational, unstable or hypocritical, the record is here in black & white for anybody interested enough to examine it.

  81. “@Fred, I’m actually persevering with this because…”

    Suit yourself, persevere away.

  82. Anti-semantic or something?

    Glenn you really do have a way with words. That’s my laugh for the evening!

    I was feeling pretty grim after watching the video Mary linked earlier (Animals!)–thank you Mary.

    Still a bit sombre but was good to have a laugh.

  83. Macky, at the risk of, as someone said, “re-importing” old conversations, my recent experience with Fred is that he is very stubborn and when confronted with hard logic will be deflective. So don’t waste your time. Some of us like to close arguments and, ideally, reach agreement but for that to happen ego needs to be set aside. If even one out of twenty of us could actually do that, we could change human consciousness.

    And have heaven on earth rather than finding it in some afterlife as all organised religions would have us do.

    I wonder how useful blogs like this are that give us the illusion that we could collectively change something when the change has to come from within. It doesn’t cease to surprise me how much conflict gets created in this microcosm and so little agreement. But that seems the way of the world and the society WE have created.

  84. “Macky, at the risk of, as someone said, “re-importing” old conversations, my recent experience with Fred is that he is very stubborn and when confronted with hard logic will be deflective.”

    Well at least I don’t have to resort to slagging off other users.

    But if you lot don’t stop talking about me I’m going to start, ever seen a flame war? You wouldn’t last two minutes.

  85. Well, the muscular (let’s be kind to it) brand of Israeli nationalism is losing the argument, that much is obvious. You can’t argue with overwhelming firepower and hundreds of dead children. It’s kinda hard to put a counterveiling spin on that one. And so sympathy for Israel is melting like snow off a dyke, as they say in certain parts, even among its allies.

    The lesson that you don’t shit where you eat seems lost on them. Why can’t they see the pointlessness of what they’re doing? Why can’t they stop the manifest oppression, the control-freakery, and the destabilsing of other powers? Come to peace, for fuck sake, and stop snarling at your neighbours.

  86. La Zona Norte Respetable

    14 Jan, 2013 - 11:42 pm

    @Doug Scorgie – “Zona Norte, why did you choose the name of a Mexican brothel area in Tijuana known for not only adult but also child prostitution?”

    Anti-semitism is all anyone talks about here…..

    Actually, I am coming to you live from a well-off suburb north of Buenos Aires.

    Yours sincerely,

    The poster formerly known as “Zona Norte”

  87. ” But if you lot don’t stop talking about me I’m going to start, ever seen a flame war? You wouldn’t last two minutes.”

    Super-stylish. Was one right about the ego? Hit the e-spot?

    Well Field Marshal Fred, you didn’t really ‘listen’ to my complete comment, perhaps because you’re more used to speaking than listening, a finer, more sensitive art. My comment above makes it clear one doesn’t like conflict. Manage your ‘self’ as you will, its ‘your’ shoddy little affair.

  88. @Villager, yes the Ego & Religion seem to have a lot in common, the need to believe in being right, in knowing best, or that that my righteousness is not just self-righteousness but the ultimate pure righteousness etc… reminds me of the brief dialogue you had with Vronsky on the Church of Fear thread, in which to paraphrased what he said, that Religion gives people the confidence to go out and do what they have to do, secure in the belief that they are invulnerable. Vronsky’s “invulnerability” is presumably based on the apparent certainty of these people’s convictions in their particular religion/ belief/moral systems, and for me this is nothing more than delusional arrogance. I respect people’s right to hold religious/moral beliefs, only because I know that the most devote, are truly enlighten, and so when pressed enough will ultimately acknowledge that actually there is no certainty, devote Christians will speak of the Divine Mystery, for devote Muslims it’s expressed as the Will of Allah, both basically admitting that no human can ever know the mind of God, which I think is exactly what Socrates meant when he stated “I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance”, in other worlds it is beyond our human comprehension to understand the mystery of the Human Condition. Those who cannot accept this fact, and insist that they know the Truth,and/or they are right, are the ones to be most feared

  89. La Zona Norte Respetable

    14 Jan, 2013 - 11:58 pm

    @Mike:

    Israel is a spoiled, immature, and aggressive nation. Things got immensely worse after 9/11 when the United States fell lock, stock and barrel into the trap of believing that she and Israel shared the same enemies. Israel has learned that there are no real consequences for stealing anyone’s land or defying the UN. I suspect that at a political level, no one really likes Israel but there is so much residual guilt from WWII preventing Western leaders from speaking the truth about Israel’s appalling behaviour. Our leaders are great at bombing the hell out of defenseless nations like Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan but are as meek as doormice when it comes to confronting Israeli collective punishment.

    So here we are, nearly 65 years after the creation of the state of Israel and as far away as ever from a just solution for the Palestinians. For me anyway, the creation of the state of Israel will go down in history as one of the biggest diplomatic blunders ever.

  90. You gotta laugh. Syria is off the menu, for the time being, so all of a sudden Mali is a “serious concern” for UK Ltd’s blue managers, while the French are already in there doing a Libya. Without US involvement, taking out Syria ain’t on the cards so the entente diabolique has turned to a medium-sized turkey-shoot meal bucket instead. It doesn’t matter who’s in charge -Blair/Sarkosy/Obama/Hollande/Cameron – the main course is the same.
    What is it good for? Absolutely nothing (except shareholder profit).
    “Why do I lie to myself?”
    Bring on the drones…

  91. Possibly La Zona. But it exists, and it isn’t going to go away. You can’t change the past, only the future. Hopefully, Israel will change.
    You gotta hope, right?
    Hope?

  92. La Zona Norte Respetable

    15 Jan, 2013 - 12:20 am

    @Mike

    I think we are beyond any kind of peaceful solution. I regret to say that I see a disastrous ending for Israel. Can you see the removal of 400,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank (and growing) without which there is no hope for any peace. The stupid United States is praying that Palestinians will one day just accept “the facts on the ground” but every indication is that the Palestinians and their allies are becoming more not less militant. Israel’s nuclear arsenal is an irrelevance because the so-called Samson option will result in the mother-of-all conflagrations. Even if Israel manages to annihilate several Arabs capitals it sure as hell won’t feel like victory, of that I am sure.

  93. I recommend Jonathan Cook’s latest article, dated 14 January, on http://www.counterpunch.org (“How 20 tents…”)

  94. La Zona Norte Respetable

    15 Jan, 2013 - 12:38 am

    @Habbabkuk:

    Good article.

    – Following the Israeli raid, that point was made eloquently by Mohammed Khatib, one of the organisers. “In establishing Bab al-Shams, we declare that we have had enough of demanding our rights from the occupier — from now on we shall seize them ourselves.” –

    Good on them!! These protesters are under no illusions about US so-called even-handedness which is the sickest joke of all. To hell with the rubbish “Peace Process”. Mass non-violent action such as this is the only thing the Palestinians have left but it may already be too late.

  95. Macky, i stand on the line between the Known and the Unknown.

    And now as i turn out my light perhaps a little visit to the latter. Who knows?

    More tomorrow. Wish you all a good rest.

  96. Villager: ” It doesn’t cease to surprise me how much conflict gets created in this microcosm and so little agreement.”

    I know, and it’s enough to make one despair. But at least site/blog this doesn’t solely consist of the mindless splat-stick/ slanging-match/ insult and idle threat trading that makes up the content of most online “debate” these days, a competition of attaining sides and putting down or frightening off adversaries. It’s not quite that bad here yet. In truth, it’s remarkably civil and reasonable (my best efforts aside).

    *

Powered By Wordpress | Designed By Ridgey | Produced by Tim Ireland | Hosted In The Cloud