Altered States

by craig on April 18, 2013 11:59 am in Uncategorized

I avoided the Thatcherfest yesterday by flying to Accra, and landed slap in the middle of a State Visit by President Ahmadinejad. Any number of levels of irony there. I am however pleased to see President John Mahama – an old friend of mine – giving out a fairly clear signal he is not going to be a US puppet. That was reinforced yesterday by a high profile announcement from the Ministry of Finance of a new policy aimed at increasing the – hitherto very limited – social benefit from Ghana’s oil and mining industries. Just how much this will amount to in practice remains to be seen, but I am very pleased to see that, as John Mahama’s Presidency in his own right gets underway, the direction of travel may be more radical and aimed at social justice.

Another piece of good news from West Africa yesterday was President Goodluck Jonathan of Nigeria’s announcement of a negotiating committee to try to open negotiations with Boko Haram on the basis of a ceasefire and an amnesty. The committee’s remit includes a specific commitment to look at underlying grievances that had led to the unrest.

Nigeria shows much greater wisdom than the standard Western government line that the state can do no wrong and that all terrorist movements must be crushed by military force – something that often leads into an unending revenge cycle. Insurgency movements are indeed always caused – no matter how psychotic or vicious individual terrorists may be and no matter how evil some of their acts. For any terrorist or insurgency activity to have sufficient support in a host population to have a resilient existence, that population must believe itself to have a legitimate grievance. Ultimately the only way to overcome terrorism is to talk to the terrorists. Which is not to say I think this initiative will succeed; but it is certainly the right thing to try.

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  1. So that’s where you are! I hope you’re keeping well, Craig.

  2. Jaw-jaw versus war-war really is the only way to attempt to find a solution, look at NI.

  3. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Apr, 2013 - 1:27 pm

    Be well Mr Murray.

    Glad to see that some African nations are making steps towards getting on with their lives with no foreign strings attached to their hands. But I doubt that it will continue for much longer. Too many richness is in African soil and
    too little they can do to keep others away. But at least they have managed to elect decent people to govern them.

  4. Craig,

    I agree with much of what you say, but “the standard Western government line that the state can do no wrong and that all terrorist movements must be crushed by military force” has a number of counter examples, including Northern Ireland. (although perhaps it takes the governments some time to realise that there is another way).

  5. Would Ghana’s withdrawal from the US’s sphere be inversely proportional to its approach to China’s, I wonder?

  6. The Thatcherfest is over, so you can come back now. For your next blog, four men who considered using a toy car to deliver a bomb have been jailed for a total of more than 30 years (

  7. @ Paul,

    If I am reading you correctly:-

    ” I agree with much of what you say, but “the standard Western government line that the state can do no wrong and that all terrorist movements must be crushed by military force” has a number of counter examples, including Northern Ireland.”

    Surely, Nothern Ireland is not the “counter example” but an example that says that negotiations and not the shedding of blood accompanied by much military violence – and is not the way forward for humanity.

  8. Interesting post from Craig and good follow-up comments. Komodo’s observation about the rôle of China is particularly pertinent and it would be good to have more details of the various economic deals China makes with developing countries out in the public sphere (although I shan’t be holding my breath).

    I join with Uzbek-in-UK in wishing the Presidents of Ghana and Nigeria well in any initiative they take to keep more of the fruits of their countries’ natural richnesses in their countries and to use those fruits to improve the lot of their fellow countrymen.

  9. Greenmachine

    18 Apr, 2013 - 2:29 pm

    Have just watched John Ware’s documentary on Israel followed by Olly Lamberts’s excellent piece on Syria (C4 last night). Both are excellent thought provoking programmes which I recommend to all. What comes from them both, besides the tragic, jaw-dropping sadness brought about by conflict, is the realisation even in those seemingly intractable situations there must, eventually, come a compromise from all parties without any more resorting to violence for the benefit of ALL the people of those countries. Craig appears to be witnessing that in West Africa currently and the shining examples of South Africa and Northenr Ireland are there for all to see.

  10. Windy Miller

    18 Apr, 2013 - 2:36 pm

    Hi Craig, i wish i was there in Accra.

    It’s very good that Nigeria’s at least trying to solve its problems through talks with Boko Haram, but the concern surely would be that if this is even partially successful then other factions will rush in to take their place. Terrorism, Bribery and Piracy pays handsomely and tribal tensions with jealousies make for a very challenging place to do business.

    With all that in mind and seeing a growing Nigerian presence in Ghana do you feel that as ill gotten gains become more difficult in Nigeria, then the gangs and terrorists will move across borders into surrounding countries.

  11. Craig. I draw your attention to English Knight’s post at 16 Apr, 2013 – 8:57 pm in the previous thread. Could you delete it and make a statement as to whether you are happy to allow “English Knight” to continue posting here?

    In the offending post Knight suggests that Jews are destined again for the ovens in cattle truck. Not the first time he has suggested that either.

    I also think you should appoint some new moderators.

    [Mod: this has now gone.]

  12. I assume you are not happy about that type of post but at the moment someone could post Mein Kampf repeatedly on your blog with no moderation it seems.

  13. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Apr, 2013 - 4:07 pm

    Has anyone seen the BBC programme about Israel yesterday? Biased towards Israel but sill bearable to watch. Reinforced me in my thoughts that two states solution is less favourable towards Palestinians. One state solution with equal rights for both Jewish and Palestinian citizens should be much more desired by Palestinians, and it would also end Zionist state and transform Israel into modern (and so far the only) liberal state in the region. It is unlikely to materialise in any feasible future but this is what Palestinians need to demand.

  14. It’s great to see independent states trying to find their own way forward, as we’ve seen most spectacularly in south America.

    For years the west has fuelled a fire of terrorism and inhumanity in its client states, the better to control their resources.

    Perhaps it’s more a sign that the West is losing control to some extent.

    You can see here how Thatcher was an enthusiastic exporter of the weapons of terror abroad:

    “‘Although British companies have long sold arms, legally and illegally, to the world’s leading tyrannies… it was Margaret Thatcher who brought a crusading zeal to the task of arming much of the world.

    ‘She became a super-saleswoman, making deals, talking up the finer points of fighter aircraft engines, hard-bargaining with Saudi princes, cajoling buyers and sellers alike.'”

  15. According to who you read Boko Haram, I’m told it means “western education is sinful”, are either just a loose grouping of anarchists or extremists whose intent is a pure Islamic state ruled by Sharia Law.

    Either way i wish the Nigerians good luck reaching a compromise,

  16. Am I missing something anon? Is there any reason why Mein Kampf should not be available to anyone wishing to read it?
    What is the problem with English Knight indicating that he is an idiot intent on shocking other idiots?
    Free Speech may be messy but it is greatly preferable to legal licensing of acceptable language and opinion, or, for that matter, the sort of lynch mob conformity that leads to the denial of platforms to men like Galloway and the approval of persecutions such as that of Assange.
    There are many comments on this blog which seem to be the work of provocateurs and hasbaristers. And it is sickening to have to pick through them to find the real discussion but it is far better that Habbakuk et al be suffered than that anyone be charged with the task of divining who is working for the Tory party, the Israeli Embassy, the CIA or New Labour and winnowing them out.
    The fascists to worry about are not dead Germans but authoritarians who believe that the police should monitor conversations and censor communications.

  17. Habbabkuk has it on authority that Craig Murray only reads a few comments at the beginning of a post and somebody pointed out how he self-moderates at the beginning of a blog-post before going into his bigotry. And I see it’s true. However I notice his last comment on the previous thread was also self-moderated. interesting!

  18. I don’t mean Craig, I mean Habbubkuk. I should have read it back to myself first.

  19. Glad you are well Craig. You missed nothing at the £10m spectacle yesterday. All the fascists and war criminals (well most of them) were there and Cameron even had a dinner at No 10 for some of them on the evening before the main event A lot of catching up was going on. Liam Fox was sorry that there was no representative from the Obama administration. Cameron had a separate meeting with Netanyahu at No 10 but perhaps he was at the dinner too.

    David Cameron hosted a small dinner in No 10 on Tuesday night for funeral guests including Cheney, Baker, Shultz and the Canadian prime minister, Stephen Harper.

    One of the best commentaries I have read comes from the Scot John Hilley who mans a weekly SPSC stall in Glasgow and protests at Faslane against Trident.

    Just to say that I have decided to leave the blog. Having ‘supported’ you here for many years including your giving evidence to the JCHR. hearing you speak at Gaza rallies and your stand against the many many injustices present in the system, I find that my presence here has become intolerable, due mainly to the hostility and slander I have been encountering, including some very unpleasant personal remarks, plus some ganging up from the trolls.

    Even after my last declared post on page 2 of the previous post, I saw that there was continual references to me by name throughout the following three pages. I also noticed that I was being described as ‘anti-Jew’ which is slander. I am not. I am opposed to Zionism, the theft of Palestinian land and homes and the injustices being meted out by the Israelis. See some questions here from George Howarth asked of the Minister for Middle East and Near Asia, who is himself a Friend of Israel, as a illustration.

    I assume that it is my stand on Israel that has attracted this ‘attention’ and it is therefore impossible and also pointless for me to continue. I will not put myself up as some sort of target to be assailed as I have too much self respect for that to happen. I hope that the trolls do not take this fine blog over. I see that the current comments have even been given the seal of approval by the main offender.

    I wish you and the family all the best and friends here.

  20. If some think I’ve gone OTT with the complaint then perhaps I have. Just been very upset with the state of the blog recently and that last Knight crap just got me really upset.

    I’m off.

  21. Chris2 – 18 Apr, 2013 – 6:26 pm

    Well said.

  22. Sorry to hear that, Mary, though I understand. I’m not surprised either, given the spiteful attention you have received.
    I’ll miss your presence and your reliable eye for relevant links. All I can offer in consolation is that you were victimised because your contribution was so valuable.
    I hope you keep an eye on the blog and maybe a time will come when you feel able to return.
    Best of luck.

  23. Mary, you should not go. What you need to do is develop a skin like Komodo’s. These people are not worth your spit. Don’t let them get to you. They try to do the same to me. Mostly I don’t even read what they write and when I see certain names I just skip the comment. It saves time and does not upset me. These people are low-life. You go and they’ve achieved what they want to achieve, a disruption of the common sense exhibited by most who come here. I am not for banning comments. I really do believe in free speech, especially in this age of media-gagging. But I would rather see them go than you. Please stay.

  24. One correction. Alistair Burt is Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs
    The minister is based in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and is responsible for:
    •Afghanistan and South Asia
    •Counter terrorism
    •Counter proliferation
    •North America
    •Middle East and North Africa*
    •FCO finance
    •Human resources and diversity

    * not Near Asia as I said.

  25. Mary – please don’t.

  26. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    18 Apr, 2013 - 9:28 pm

    I don’t know how Craigs health is, or if he is able to monitor the blog with any consistency. But I would like to echo the sentiment that it does seem somewhat abandoned. I appeal to Craig to enlist some help. I’m not sure of the details of Clark’s resignation or Jon’s absence but someone is making the mods job more difficult than need be. Honest disagreements and even acrimony over disshevelled miscommunication is one thing, but the stalking must cease.


  27. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    18 Apr, 2013 - 9:34 pm

    “The other day, Hugo Chavez’ successor Nicolás Maduro beat opposition leader Henrique Capriles Radonski by 2% of the vote. In the days since, opposition figures have sown violence, claiming vote fraud.

    Yesterday, Secretary of State Kerry encouraged a recount.

    Mr. Kerry, in comments to a House committee, said, “We think there ought to be a recount.” He added that he had not yet evaluated whether Washington would recognize Mr. Maduro’s victory.

    This, in spite of a leaked recording of a close Capriles advisor admitting that this result was a political triumph but an electoral defeat.

    This, in spite of the fact that when Bush beat Kerry with precisely the same percentage of the vote in 2004 amid reports of (limited) electoral oddities, Kerry chose not to demand a recount.

    On November 2, 2004, George W. Bush beat John Kerry 50.7 percent to 48.3 percent. Venezuela’s foreign minister immediately (either that night or the day after) recognized the results: “we will hope that in this second mandate we can improve our relations.”

    Fast forward nine years, and Nicolás Maduro beats Henrique Capriles with 50.7% of the vote and the US refuses to recognize the result. “Look, we’re just not there yet,” said a State Department spokesman (who now works for—wait for it— John Kerry). “Obviously, we have nearly half the country that had a different view. And so we’ll continue to consult, but we’re not there yet.”

    Most interesting of all is something James Clapper just said in a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. In response to a question from Richard Blumenthal about whether there had been fraud in the election, Clapper said (my rough transcription):

    There may have been some, but it’s unclear whether it was of sufficient magnitude to merit recount. Right now it doesn’t appear to be.

    In other words, even the intelligence says, whatever fraud there was, it wasn’t enough to affect the outcome.”

  28. Am I missing something anon? Is there any reason why Mein Kampf should not be available to anyone wishing to read it?

    Of course they should. My point was in the word “repeatedly.” It would make the blog hard to read if every second message had the text of any book whether by Hitler or not. The lack of moderation is the problem.

    Anyway I’m away from here. Bad for my health to be truthful.

  29. Hi Mary

    I’ve just signed in after a long absence – I’ll post on the previous thread so as not to clutter things up here (since at the start of this thread, I hope people will be talking about progressive African governance!). Anyway, please stay – I agree we need some effective moderation, and I’ll ask Craig if he will permit it.

  30. Mary – please dont go. As ANODE says you are targetted because your input is valuable.

    As I say repeatedly , the thing is to NEVER reply or refer to the trolls, even indirectly. The best thing is not to even to read any comment by them.

  31. I thought that would happen Mary. your concerns and support for the Palestinian People is Nobel and just cause.
    It suited the troll to twist things as much as possible. all the hounding has been just ugly and nasty, and if you leave it means bad wins over good yet again.

    I hope you decide to stay, and hope you are ok.

  32. @ All,

    This declassified document tells quite a story. Pretty clear evidence, and it gets really interesting from page 8.

    Should make us think a bit more when next we are inclined to us the phrase “conspiracy theory”.


  33. Habbabkuk and Crew.

    You’re clearly intelligent enough people.

    As much as many of us decry you lot here there’s damn few of us who would ban you.

    I would like to think that’s a mark of this blog’s tolerance-even when it gets shirty.

    But,if i may…what you and your “organised” crew-and let’s be honest that’s what it is whether you deny it or not-have done since Craig’s blog was announced 3rd most influential political blog,has been nothing but a sinister,stalking attack on certain individuals who,last time i checked,were neither advocating violence or anti-Semitic.

    Pretty nauseating and,frankly,worrying what you guys are doing.

    What i will say,finally Habbabkuk-and cohorts-is this:

    In your,perhaps understandable,fervour to rid the world of your greatest fears and historical enemies,please…?

    Don’t become them.


  34. I always thought NI was ‘resolved’ by the US strangling their funding making talking a way out and save face. So my question is how do you constrain funding of, and access to arms by, insurgencies?
    Maybe guns should have built in planned obsolescence so later, when your funded freedom fighter becomes your terrorist insurgent he can’t shoot you with your own gun and their funds get rapidly depleted?!

  35. I’m not exactly a regular poster here but I read most of the comments and would echo the comments of those asking Mary to stay. Please stay, Mary. That Habbabkuk has been relentless and cruel in his(?) trolling of you, but stay anyway. Don’t let the trolls win.

    In fact, don’t let the trolls post. Being banned from this site is not a curtailment of free speech, while online bullying may well curtail the appetite for speech of those that are bullied, as is happening here right now.

    They’re not here to make their points in a civilised manner, they’re here to disrupt and cause distress. This place should be for discussion, not abuse, and anyone that abuses should be given the heave. They can go and discuss things with like minded individuals somewhere else, in the unlikely event it thrills them to do so.

  36. Mary has been here for a long time and the stalking of her by certain posters is saying that the moderation does not care much of what happens here.

    I would like to thank Mary for her conscientious posts and her support for the struggle of Palestinians against all odds.

    Like Chinese water torture, drip by drip by drip, her resolve has been whittled down with petty insinuations and cyber stalking. If social responsibility is just a word, this blog moderation proofs it.

    Getting a thicker skin is not for all. So who will this interloper target next if Mary’s gone? Is this just about cutting people down? is it aimed at Craig or is it aimed at us, with Craigs knowledge.

    Whatever it is, its downright dirty, seemingly a trait that is acceptable here, odious and pervasive, lingering like a blanket of putrid smoke that refuses to lift.

    Mary’s posts have value to me, they are informative, whilst those who bicker and stain this blog with nothing but ‘their opinion’, some never to post a link, are acting like a gang of school boys on heat.

    Mary, are you really going to let these bullies, not to forget the lax moderation, chase you out of town?

  37. @ Mary:
    ” I see that the current comments have even been given the seal of approval by the main offender.”

    Very embarrassing, that. Colour me embarrassed. But even a troll has to get it right sometimes.

    Jon: do the multiple bag ads above have an Israeli IP?

    Ghana: this prompts a quiet ‘hmmmm?’ :

  38. Certainly, keeping free speech in its entirety on the board gives Craig a distinct moral edge over the Guardian and BBC, which tremble at the thought that recipes for bagels may be construed as antisemitic…..but if a troll is consistently harassing other posters, and using insults and mockery to do so, I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t be ejected. Not that this will stop it registering as something else and returning. So ejecting it in the absence of continuous moderation would be a waste of time.

    Earlier comment re EK – if the troll wants to close this blog down, all it has to do is post ‘Mein Kampf’ repeatedly. It is an insanely boring piece of work.

  39. I’m very sad to see Mary leave the comments section. She provided a very rich seam of links which must have been hard work to provide. I think the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I’ll continue to read Craig’s posts but don’t think I’ll bother with the petty bickering on the comments.

  40. @Courtenay
    Exactly NI saw progress when people decided to sit down and talk.

  41. Just been watching the latest on Boston on BBC….. Why all the Military personnel? Surely what happened is a Police/FBI matter.

  42. @ Jim Mcd :

    Are you sure they’re not National Guardsmen? I find nothing surprising in their presence, in the same way asI f ound nothing surprising (or objectional)in the use of army units to provide security at the London Olympics. You use whatever manpower’s available, surely.

  43. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Apr, 2013 - 11:55 am

    Although quite often I disagree with Mary, I would least want her to leave this blog. She makes useful contribution to the various issues and seems to be passionate about what she believes in.

    The general problem on this blog is (sometimes) that participants (probably due to being very passionate) start insulting each other. Moderators need to be keep an eye on such issues as even freedom of speech needs to have its boundaries. Everyone is entitled to have their opinion, I repeat Everyone. Difference of opinions is clear indicator of that we represent vibrant society where everyone have their own opinion and being able to speak about is what matters. Nobody should have right to abuse someone just because they disagree with their opinion. Abusers need to be excluded. If person cannot argue in civilised manner then they should probably learn to do it first.

  44. Mary: fwiw, I don’t think you should be bullied off the board either.

  45. Uzbek: well put, thanks – seconded.

  46. One way to encourage your voluntary moderator would be to read what he writes and act on it. Jon wrote (18 Apr, 11:37 pm):

    “I’ll post on the previous thread so as not to clutter things up here (since at the start of this thread, I hope people will be talking about progressive African governance!)”

    so the discussion about moderation should continue from here:

  47. Victor Tashkentskiy

    19 Apr, 2013 - 12:31 pm

    Mary, are you giving up? I am not a permanent stand owner on this blog like many people here are. However, I read it often whenever I am back from business from Central Asia, and your comments make much sense in understanding the current trend of political and social affairs around us. I have lived times in the Soviet Union, and I must say, Britain and other Western countries are sliding slowly into soviet style politics. During the soviets too, many people gave up standing up against injustice and chauvinism of the political right wing. Do not let this happen here.

  48. American puppet or not – this is seriously weird:

  49. Hobnoxious

    Even if Saddam and Mrs T and Tony B were at my door, which I think I can safely say is unlikely, I would give them a cup of tea with full hospitality in a fellow human being capacity. Your technique of personal attacks on an individual is obnoxious, and the criterion for you being deemed a troll.

  50. @ Clark –
    Hesitation may not be a problem with us, but repetition and deviation are endemic…

  51. Uzbek in the UK

    19 Apr, 2013 - 1:29 pm

    Well put Victor. It is sometimes misunderstood and could be quite confusing to Westerners that despite being the only socialist superpower on earth USSR was run by extreme right wing politicians for whom left ideas were just tools of keeping control over the people and resources. Some argue that USSR lasted so long not just because people were giving up, but because numerous Stalin’s purges wiped out soviet intelligentsia in the early days and replaced it with half robots who had knowledge and expertise but lacked intelligence.

    Another thing to mention is that Western societies had their worse times before. Remember McCarthyism in US? Communist scare in Europe?

  52. Being ‘Sorry’ on a blog that attempts to counter tyranny is of course not quite good enough. The success of this effort depends on a number of important factors. Craig Murray has excellent contacts that he can sometimes use to initiate and verify his comments.

    Most times however the best posts are the result of ‘crunching the numbers’ and plain old hard work in digging data or information while following a logical process of collection and verifying.

    Certain ‘base’ documents such as the pdf from Courtenay push home that need to inquire and report using our insight and awareness. That process of course relies on talent, will and perseverance.

    In our blog play-ground nobody dominates and any imperious assault on any of our players is enigmatic to fairness and liberty, is oppressive and must cease forthwith.

    If somebody leaves as a result of harsh treatment then we, as a group, have failed to uphold the point of this place.

  53. Am I the only person who thinks that the Police/Military lockdown of the whole city of Boston to catch one man is a bit overkill? Could this be a practice for things to come for the American people?

  54. Mary, please don’t allow yourself to be harassed or intimidated out of commenting. I for one appreciate your comments and relevant links. I suspect the attacks are being directed by those who find your pro-Palestinian comments and links are just a little bit too effective (and may be being paid to troll).

  55. No Jim – the wheel is turning as our consciousness shifts to another gear; exactly mother(nurture)nature’s intention to ensure survival of her culminating mutation, us!

    That shift means we evolve and here lies a problem. Control becomes anathema to us especially control by fear.

    Laws, regulation, money, fallacious events and trained military/police/territorial army in the discipline of crowd control, have all grown, boosted to hold that new alertness in check.

    Happily a Chief constable admitted if the number of people arrested in a demonstration exceed 10,000 the government falls over-night.


  56. @ Mary :

    Life (unfortunately) teaches us that magnanimity is often perceived as a sign of weakness and turned against the person showing magnanimity.

    Nevertheless, I’m willing – at least for a ‘trial period’ and while firmly rejecting the charges of ‘bullying’ or ‘stalking’ which some people delight in levelling at me – to go easy/easier on you, as I understand that participating in this blog is important to you and it’s not my intention or my agenda to drive you away from it.

    This approach would of course be facilitated if you were to indulge in a bit of gentle self-moderation in the future. Staying more (I don’t expect complete abstinence) on topic and also avoiding irrelevancies such as pointing out that someone happens to be someone else’s “third” wife or the Jewishness of certain public actors or of someone they might happen to be acquainted with, etc, would be helpful in this regard.

    It would also be helpful if some of your supporters showed greater civility : while I would prefer an answer from you if I put such questions as ‘how is this relevant..etc..’, I have no particular objection if one or more of your supporters answer the question for you, provided however that they speak to the substance and moreover do so in a civilised manner (Nevermind, Doug Scorgie et al please note).

    Last but not least, I do believe that you need to develop a somewhat thicker skin and not to assume automatically that anyone who criticises one of your posts is a troll intent on disruption; people should be allowed to have a different take on something or query the legitimacy or factuality of one or the other of your posts.

  57. Forced multiculturalism, millitant feminism, free love, sexual degenerousy, egalaterianism,lowering moral codes, displacing virtues, openenly deconstructing tradditionalism,

    All from the left. So what does right wing mean. This is a liberal blog not one that should just adhere a anything goes mentality.

    We were talking about free speach can we not at least adhere to some sort of protectionism; of values that have been dissappearing consistantly in the recent passed.

    No wonder liberalism is now defunct cause it moved so far left it is twisted?

    What’s next polygamy?
    Craig has mentioned he is not bothered, so its a free for all?
    Go to a commune or a succesful state or institution for guidance.

  58. ‘Nevertheless, I’m willing’

    That should read: ‘I promise I’m going to .. in future’ to be even remotely convincing. You are still talking as though there is some validity in your unprovoked personalised comments. Picking on people personally is totally out of order, without a full and comprehensive apology that shows you understand how unacceptable your picking on Mary in a personal way has been.

    Fact is you don’t understand. Your intention is to hurt because you cannot stand listening to truth.

  59. Off topic (whatever it was):
    Ammonium nitrate is known to be unpredictable, and responds to very small levels of impurities by decomposing violently (going bang). Your opinions on the mentality of those who placed a school and an eventide home within a mile of a bulk NH4NO3 storage facility would perhaps be of interest to someone?

    Oh, and if you see a pretty fire burning at a fertiliser plant near you, probably best to get behind something solid…

  60. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    19 Apr, 2013 - 4:05 pm

  61. 3.27 p.m. It’s like the drunken violent husband sobers up and realises his arse might just be out the door.

    “I don’t want to lose you. Actually I’m very reasonable. I’m so caring that I’m temporarily willing to try not to beat you to a pulp again. Not that I ever really hurt you. Couldn’t you try to be less oversensitive when I really gently and reasonably punish you for your misdemeanours? Couldn’t you stop your friends from judging me negatively? Now if you would make more of an effort not to deserve it…”

  62. ‘no matter how psychotic or vicious individual terrorists may be’

    Psychotic means you’re mad but you are unaware of the fact, presumably because you’re own boundaries have been blown apart and you haven’t been able to come to terms with that fact.
    Vicious perhaps implies self-knowledge and pre-meditation.

    Most of what the West defines as terrorism is one stage after that, which is when you realise that the people who have oppressed you will never understand what they have done until they are able to experience being on the receiving end of a similar injustice.

    The discourse that follows is to monitor the degree that the treatment has taken effect on the perpetrators of the original oppression. Not for the original perpetrators to monitor the degree of contrition of the so-called terrorists.

  63. I suggest again that there is a need for an “ignore” button. Then a person can switch off particular individual and need never see their postings again. This also obviates the argument about free speech because it is an individual decision to avoid the poster.

    I don’t know how easy it is to code an ignore button in this system but I suggest to the admin team it would be a good idea. I have been on forums where it is an extremely useful function where there is disharmony.



  64. Sounds great, Julian.

  65. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    19 Apr, 2013 - 4:42 pm

    Cui bono? It sounds vaguely familiar. Do the Russians need help to contain Chechnya?

  66. Ben Unleaded.

    I’m inclined to xxxtreme cynicism when it comes to home terrorism. Aangirfan seems to have fathomed the depths of evil that Western governments are capable of in false-flag violence in order to stay in power. His idea is that the names of the suspects may be genuine but the perpetrators are just actors in collusion with police etc.

    There are some loose cannon in the US neo-con elites, such as Rahm Emmanuel, Hilary Clinton and David Petraeus, who appear to be even more devious-minded in dirty CIA Al-Qaida terrorism, than the present incumbents Kerry and Brennan. If that’s possible. The message of the moment is designed to show that Obama is pootling about with gun control and welfare and is not in charge of the domestic situation.

    In reality US=UK=IS=Russia=China=Saudi=Europe in cutting out the new world order. It’s as relevant to say that the stolen identities used in this false-flag bombing come from Chechnya as from Manchester.

    The world has been put in a pressure cooker of gratuitous violence in order to accelerate the cooking of existing power, by which I mean the rendering of sinewy Western Freedom Values and strong, lean Islamic values into a nice stew of quasi-religious submission to political elites.

    Yongyongyongyongyongyongyong. Keep tinkling your triangles children. the world is far too complicated for you to understand. But we’ll look after it for you, never fear.

  67. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    19 Apr, 2013 - 5:19 pm

    Guano; It reminds me a little of JFK’s assassination. Somehow within minutes of the event, Media outlets had a description and background on Oswald.

    There was just too much info too soon.

  68. Well done Guano – a ‘simmering’ thought 😉

  69. “In my opinion, my children were set up by the secret services because they are practising Muslims,” Anzor Tsarnaev told the Interfax news agency today from the North Caucasus Russian city of Makhachkala.

  70. “Aangirfan seems to have fathomed the depths of evil that Western governments are capable of in false-flag violence in order to stay in power. His idea is that the names of the suspects may be genuine but the perpetrators are just actors in collusion with police etc. ”

    …and of course he can back that up with evidence…

  71. KingofWelshNoir

    19 Apr, 2013 - 6:15 pm

    I would like to echo some of the comments about Mary and the trolling. I don’t post very often here but am a regular reader and have observed with distaste Habbabkuk’s persistent, spiteful and obsessive campaign of harassment directed at Mary. I’m not sure if it amounts to stalking but it is certainly bullying and deliberate. I don’t believe this latest offer to ‘go easy’ on her (which implicitly admits the charge of bullying) is prompted by magnanimity. Rather I suspect he is a bit taken aback by the response from the silent lurkers who have come out of the woodwork to post in support of Mary. I would urge you, Mary, not to leave, but I would understand why you might decide enough is enough. Being singled out like you have been is very unpleasant.

  72. @ Kingof WelshNoir:

    “Rather I suspect he is a bit taken aback by the response from the silent lurkers who have come out of the woodwork to post in support of Mary”

    Yes, sure, all half dozen of them. I’m totally cowed.

    What I said in the first sentence of my post already seems to have been borne out. Nevertheless, I’ll suppress the urge to reply in a robust way to the Guanos and Haemaglobins and await Mary’s reactions as manifested in her posting (or non-posting) since all of this is supposed to be about her, isn’t it, boys?

  73. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    19 Apr, 2013 - 6:46 pm

    Don’t matter whether 6 or 60. You’re just one…or is it two……three?

  74. KingofWelshNoir @ 6:15pm

    Wot he said. Couldn’t agree more.


    Silent Lurker

  75. I can’t see what Mary ever did apart from block quote the BBC. She rarely offered anything original and seemed to be plugged into a permanent drip-feed of news media. When confronted, you saw her stalinist side, cold as ice, like you’d taken on the Politburo.

    That said I will miss her for her gardening updates and her delightful taking apart of annoying women in the public eye.

    I think Komodo should make his move soon as they’d make a great couple. What better way to silence the habbamonster than to have love flourish between his arch-Eminences?

    Ps, Tom Welsh was a great contributor.

  76. unless of course that’s just someone pretending to be him …

  77. I imagine that everyone on this blog is now attempting to absolve these two Muslim terrorists of killing that child and other people. Just like you don’t believe that 19 Arab Muslim terrorists committed 911. What’s your favorite evidence of a conspiracy regarding these two brothers? Is it as good as your very dumb claims regarding your 911 inside job nuttery?

  78. Chechen President Blames U.S. Upbringing For Boston Suspects’ Acts: ‘Look For The Roots Of Their Evil In America’

  79. What’s your point Dreoilin? Kadyrov is a massive human rights abuser and is in Putin’s pocket. Of course he would say something like that. You really need to think through these issues better.

  80. “You really need to think through these issues better.”

    Did I say I agreed with him? I posted it as an item of interest.

  81. You gave voice to the man who probably killed Anna Politkovskaya, because it was consistent with your anti-American hatred.

  82. “I suggest again that there is a need for an “ignore” button.” — Julian

    Good idea. I could use it on Jon Pelfrey.

    But I don’t know how easy it would be to set up – as you said yourself.

  83. Repeat the phrase ‘radical islamist cleric’ several million times then feel free to attach to any Muslim who opposes the workaday slaughter routinely visited on Muslim countries.

    Photo of dead boy from Boston makes front cover of Guardian. This bombing was horrible. Do the dead kids of Gaza or Waziristan ever make the front pages of our newspapers? Of course they don’t.

    In the same paper, Abu Qatada is labelled as a ‘radical islamist cleric’ by Owen Bowcott. I’ve never read a single essay by AQ, or heard one of his ‘fiery’ speeches. I doubt Mr Bowcott has either. But like a good churnalist he repeats the phrase.

    Why is Abu Qatada a hate figure? Because of some black and white slo-mo footage with some ominous music?

    Answers please.

  84. Consumed with a belief is not a human disorder of course, it is a disposition that stupefies reasoning even in the face of an observable truth…

  85. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    19 Apr, 2013 - 10:28 pm

    Remember this?

    “A US citizen has been charged with planning to fly explosive-packed, remote controlled airplanes into the Pentagon and the Capitol in Washington.

    Rezwan Ferdaus, 26, was arrested and charged with the aerial bombing plot and attempts to deliver bomb-making materials for use against US troops in Iraq, US Attorney Carmen Ortiz said in Boston.

    ”The conduct alleged today shows that Mr Ferdaus had long planned to commit violent acts against our country, including attacks on the Pentagon and our nation’s Capitol,” Mr Ortiz said.

    During the alleged plot, undercover FBI agents posed as accomplices who supplied Ferdaus with one remote-controlled plane, C4 explosives, and small arms that he allegedly envisioned using in a simultaneous ground assault in Washington.

    However, ”the public was never in danger from the explosive devices, which were controlled by undercover FBI employees,” the FBI said.

  86. “I imagine that everyone on this blog is now attempting to absolve these two Muslim terrorists of killing that child and other people”

    Over here, we have this curious notion of ‘innocent until proven guilty’.

    Total Obama strikes: 299
    Total US strikes since 2004: 351
    Total reported killed: 2,586-3,379
    Civilians reported killed: 472-885
    Children reported killed: 176
    Total reported injured: 1,255-1,405

  87. Those first lines

    “I imagine that everyone on this blog is now attempting to absolve these two Muslim terrorists of killing that child and other people”

    were of course a quote from a previous poster.

  88. NB: the piece Dreoilin linked to shows the reality of a Kadyrov – who can say this:

    “Terrorism must be fought everywhere. We know this better than anyone. We wish all the victims a [speedy] recovery and share in Americans’ grief” (sic)

    while accused of this:

    “He is an extremely cruel man,” Politkovskaya told Ekho Moskvy radio in an interview broadcast shortly before her death. “I have met several people who told me that Ramzan Kadyrov personally tortured them in his home in the village of Tsentoroi.

    “They [the witnesses] said that Kadyrov and the other man with him used very elaborate torture. For example, they peel narrow strips of skin off a person’s back. This is the sort of torture you would call medieval brutality.”

    Read more:


    Thanks Technicolour you are an asset here.

  90. @ Dreoilin :

    “Did I say I agreed with him? I posted it as an item of interest.”

    People tend to post claims or opinions with which they agree. If you only posted it as an item of interest then it might have been better to have said so.

    Further, you write in support of an “ignore” button, saying that you could use one on Jon Pelfrey. That wish does nothing to reassure me as to the robustness of your argument since it appears to demonstrate an unwillingness to listen to(and if necessary, contest) points of view with which you are in disagreement.

  91. “People tend to post claims or opinions with which they agree.”

    This is, if you’ll excuse me for saying so, a reductive, rather absurdist point of view. It has the dubious merit of stifling debate and discussion, if taken to its logical extreme, but apart from that, it leads nowhere. Obviously, things depend upon the people (and they are real people) here who post. I’m sure if Dreoilin wanted to defend Karymov, for example, she could/should feel free to do so: what she actually said was that she posted the comment out of interest – and it was, indeed, interesting, given that an accused torturer was defending the right of the US to ‘fight terrorism’.

    ‘There are more things in heaven and earth, Habbakuk, than you dreamt of in your philosophy’ perhaps. If a blog comment section is anything, it is for movement and procession of thought?

  92. John Robertson

    19 Apr, 2013 - 11:49 pm

    I am another almost non poster who would not like to see Mary leave, but can understand after the abuse and bullying from the troll.
    Julian’s idea would be good, although I just skip over the troll when the name appears.

  93. On the other hand, some posters do indeed link to pieces they ‘agree’ with, of course. I guess you’d have to ‘know’ the people here (always a strange feeling in cyberspace, hence the inverted commas) to know when someone is linking to something hideous as an attempt to promote it, or not.

  94. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev may be dead – his twitter(FBI) feed said ‘gunshots’ shortly after my own tweet appealing for ‘Dzhokhar’ to give himself up.

  95. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    20 Apr, 2013 - 12:22 am

    Manhunt still extant, Mark.

    This is interesting…..

  96. I welcome Mary’s input … provided it is actually her own writing rather than lengthy cut-and-pastes from the MSM wrapped in sly insinuations. Too much, sometimes. (I occasionally wondered whether I’d typed “” in the address bar.) Why not just type the topic, give the links (preferably condensed into a daily digest) and let the personal snark stand on its own?

    Fwiw, I think Habbabkuk’s challenges are often well-founded, though he frequently ruins them with disturbing overtones of misogynistic bullying.

    Jon’s approach is exactly right, imho. Moderation should be limited to spam deletion only. This is an arena for open debate about the issues raised by Craig Murray. Despite some people’s best efforts, it isn’t a member’s club or a social forum for people to have personal chats (or scraps), nor to gang together and exclude opposing voices. Frankly, the flagrant verbal abuse and even physical threats that have been directed at the nay-sayers, is more disturbing than the original offences. Please read Lord of the Flies, and cogitate on the theme for a while.

  97. Close to death – ‘Dzhokhar’ tweet – ‘This is it…..(deep breath)’

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