The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.
Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:
A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.
Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.
Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.
We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.
That old argument about explain versus justify. I’m sick of it.
EXPLAINING SOMETHING IS NOT THE SAME AS JUSTIFYING IT.
Condolences to the family of the victim of this brutal murderous attack. Nobody should have to go through a tragedy like this, yet tragically these things do happen occasionally. A few years ago in Canada, in an equally horrible attack, a man was beheaded on a greyhound bus by a fellow passenger whom he did not know. In the end the attacker in Canada turned out to be mentally insane. No matter what reasons the alleged murderers might proffer to explain this murder in London it seems to me that, like the one in Canada, this attack was not rational. Rational people don’t remain at a murder scene, with their hands covered in blood, waving a cleaver, and attempting to justify the crime. I would have to wonder whether the perpetrators of this evil, and any associates, were sane at the time.
“If you think that trying to understand an incident and examine the inconsistencies in the information being released through the official channels, makes a person an apologist for the attack, then you are even more willfully deluded than I thought.”
Bang on, Sofia.
Currently on the streets of Stockholm, Europe has failed yet again.
Europeans drive migrants to despair in Sweden –
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22650267
Swedish people fail to assimilate with muslims migrants –
http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/multiculturalism-blamed-for-violent-muslim-riots/
My money’s on Silverstein and his special thermite paint, Dreoilin….but let’s not go there. Cheney is evil incarnate, agreed.
Nevermind: two disturbed crack ( is this true) users,
Probably not. It was in the Daily Mail and the Sun. But it was also reported by the BBC this morning. Neighbours of Adebolajo referred to the company he kept. Which wasn’t good company.
If this is a tragic murder of Lee Rigby by the suspects I apologise for posting the link below. There is something not quite right about what happened, or the reactions of people at the scene. I am not saying I agree with the Global Research analysis, but there have been many false flags throughout history and what happened is convenient to the government line. Blandly accepting what the media tells us is a trap we must not let ourselves fall into. We must be vigilant.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/woolrich-london-killing-terrorism-or-false-flag/5336203
Sofia
Even if I answered your questions – which I have already explained why they are of little relevance, I don’t think it would make a blind bit of difference and you would just continue in troll rather than listening mode. If you really want to see what I and a few others see as apologies and invalid excuses/reasons for the attack then you will find them if you bother to try and understand this matter from a perspective other than your own – and yes I can understand many peoples anger against the policies and actions of western Governments, it is just that I don’t share there view that such anger is in all cases sufficient justification/excuse/reason for any action which they may chose. Man is not a wild animal and is blessed with the ability to control its emotions.
By all means talk about the general situation in the Middle East – but this thread is about a particular man who has been killed, and would be better employed with thinking about breaking the cycle of violence, rather than continuing the old game of a blames b and b blames a and the using God a or b for justification. Which is perhpas why the Dennis Potter quotes I provide are of such relevance.
More than happy to talk if anyone has anything different to say or is prepared to look at new perspectives and be a little creative – but my guess is that this thread has shed all the light it can on this subject and is now just adding to mental global warming.
More of the usual bollocks from CM of the extremist far-liberal-left attempting to justify the genocidal destruction of the English people and their culture. Brilliantly dissected here by Colin Liddell.
The If you look down the wrong end of the telescope at Woolwich incident what do you see?
1/ A very well articulated justification of Islamic revenge against UK foreign policy but
2/ completely out of context in the current withdrawal of UK forces from Afghanistan and our covert involvement in Libya and Syria’s Arab Springs.
The double-game of Zionist Western and political Islam players in the Arab spring has led us revert/converts to take a very long, hard look at the so-called radical clericals that used to tempt us with whisperings of Jihad in Afghanistan etc. The convolutions of current Islamic jihad politics look more like this:
http://www.theage.com.au/executive-style/strive/qa-with-yoga-expert-duncan-peak-20130503-2ixb2.html
and the Cameron government is part of the game.
A Nigerian Muslim should be streets ahead of myself in understanding the spaghetti bolognese of events in Syria. To me it’s like trying to eat the halal spaghetti without the non-halal mince/cheema.
Let us assume that these guys were being directed full-on both by Muslim clerics and Government bandits working together. The purpose of the event is therefore to divert our attention from the contradictions of Al Qaida and Obama/Cameron and Russia and China and Europe and Saudi and Qatar working together to install a Muslim Brotherhood ( Israeli ) version of Islam in Syria under our noses.
The political Macchiavellian team have selected a pair who are happy and well rehearsed in the rhetoric of the war on terror, while the game has long been exposed as a fraud. Boston tried to get people thinking about the red herring of Russia and Chechnya. This tries to get us thinking about the red herring of
Pakistan, Syria and Iraq.
What is happening in Syria at this moment is different. This war is being led by ultra Orthodox Jews, Christians and Muslims to Roman Catholicise and suppress religious freedom and subjugate us to the New World Order pact. This is an end game for Zionism because it can only obtain recognition as the “Pope” of the new world order when it is partnership with and in the reflected glory and truth of Islam.
As Mark Golding stated yesterday, all this gives more power to the madmen in charge. It is in their interests to focus the public’s mind on the moral inconsistencies of the war on terror, in order to lure us grain by grain into the snare of their insane plan for us.
Sofia
You have perhaps been taught that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction – may I introduce you to your reaction he is called CanSpeccy.
Canspeccy
U can go back to kip.
John Goss; Not buying into false-flags at this point, but I do want to know what your Security Services knew.
The unavailability of guns and explosives in the UK could have been the reason such weapons were chosen as the only option.
But I do find it strange that this mimics the horrendous video-captured carnage in Syria .
April Showers, 2:53 pm:
I live near Writtle near Chelmsford, Essex, and I’m nearly under one of the approach routes for passenger jets. I can watch them arrive from assorted directions, and assemble themselves into a regular stream descending across London. I think they use different routes on different days, because some days there are lots of planes, and on other days, none.
Thanks for your concern but I did not mean you Sofia. I was addressing someone else here whose comments were seized on by your ‘Dad’ to have little dig at me.
RD I do not have a ’cause’ other than for truth and justice. What was the point in raising Dennis Potter’s views on religion? The message in his play ‘Blue Remembered Hills’ was that there is innate cruelty in all of us especially when we are in a group.
We had a rather useless physics teacher and I can’t remember what it was that someone said that made her cry. I still feel shame that I, as a fourteen year old, went along with the class and did not speak up for her.
Might have guessed that Alfred/Albert aka Canspeccy would turn up with his bile.
Clark Would it have been Braintree that was mentioned? I can’t remember now. The flight went towards Slough, then Watford and then eastwards before returning. Both news station used the small graphic here produced by Flight Stats.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67795000/jpg/_67795453_heathrow_bird_fire_flightpath_624.jpg
Clark That was Flight Aware not Flight Stats.
This is a larger version on Sky News.
http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/5/24/239461/default/v1/flight-path-for-online-1-522×293.jpg
~~
I was just thinking what terrible jobs paramedics, police, mnortuary staff and pathologists have to do. Apparently the cause of death cannot yet be confirmed for the dead soldier.
Distressing too to see and hear his bereaved wife and relatives. I hope that it was their wish to go through the experience of a press conference two days after the awful event and not anyone else’s.
They wouldn’t have done this if it weren’t for our foreign policy – this has to be a fact. That said though, ultimately you have to take responsibility for your own actions. They are a pair of lunatics and deserve all that’s coming to them. The earlier comment about the machete was crass.
I have a real problem with the word ‘Heroes’. This is not to demean the job that soldiers do, or what their families go through, but they are not heroes to me, just pawns in the Bush/Blair game.
Though they acted in the name of Islam, I believe, I don’t believe that they can in any way be representative of the Muslim community. I do believe however that the same community needs to do more to out these young extremists. Leaders need to stand up more often.
Clark
Planes use the wind direction at the runway as a reason for changing their flightpaths. But you knew that anyway. Like politicians, if they get a little opposition it gives them more lift.
” I do believe however that the same community needs to do more to out these young extremists. Leaders need to stand up more often.”
They do, but they have a hard time getting good publicity from our MEdia friends.
http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/Terrorism-Broader-Middle-East/Buncombe-Andrew/Muslim-seminary-issues-fatwa-against-terrorism
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/05/muslims_do_speak_out_against_terror.html
If you get as far as taking direct action, in my opinion you have allowed yourself to be a pawn/patsy, take your pick. If you want to change the world you have to win others over to your opinion or join the umbrella of others.
There is exactly the same slack attitude in Islam circles as there is in the UK army which April Showers described earlier. At low ranking levels you are not considered to be responsible for your actions if you are carrying out orders. So you have to be 100% confident in your leaders that they are competent, knowledgeable, trustworthy and do not spy, lie or bear false witness. Most fail the test.
Islam places full responsibility on the individual for all their actions. If they put their shoulder to a cause they get the full reward or punishment for that result. So they have to think pretty carefully which side their going to back.
Some people on R4 this morning described soldiers as serving their country. WTF? Stopping the truth of Islam from spreading is really useful, isn’t it?
RD.
Sidestepping the question again. Give me strength!
Wouldn’t knowing the extent of the violence inflicted by both parties be important in providing a context within which these terrible events are taking place.
I beleive you and your pathetic conformity-enforcers don’t answer because you know that to put down the relative numbers being slaughtered would give the lie to all the fairy-tales you expect people to swallow.
How in hell can we break the cycleof violence when we screw our eyes up tight to the reality of the carnage being done for so long in our names and with our tax revenues. These would surely be better spent within our own communities?
As regards the consistent patronising, self-righteous and intellectually superior tone that drips from your posts. Well excuse me while I throw up.
I know you are likely not firing the guns or missiles yourself, but by seeking to justify the slaughter called the “War on Terror” you surely have some of the lakes of blood on your hands.
April Showers
Don’t you think that in Blue Remembered Hills that Potter wasn’t also making the point as to how religous beliefs are used as support for the inate cruelty? I agree that there is inate cruelty in ALL of us – but perhaps you need to recognise that it isn’t just limited to one side of a particular argument and that it doesn’t always come from the same quarter.
I think you will find that many here have had a particular moment when they realised the importance of pursuing what they see as “truth and justice” – mine came when my Dad got lost when driving through Glasgow and I saw the conditions that other kids lived in the now demolished Gorbals – so please don’t assume that your version of “truth and justice” is the only one in existence.
Sofia
Yep and I beat my wife and kids too – talk about a straw man.
As for the “the consistent patronising, self-righteous and intellectually superior tone that drips from your posts. Well excuse me while I throw up.” – just think about it
‘So two men just murder a soldier, hang around to be arrested and that doesn’t seem a little odd to you.’
It’s seems odd to most ‘reasonable’ people, but perhaps these guys were anticipating gettin’ shat by de feds (a la Mark Duggan), and thereafter enjoying their ration of 72 virgins for the rest of eternity ?
@Guano
“Let us assume that these guys were being directed full-on both by Muslim clerics and Government bandits working together.”
As they say garbage in, guano out.
@ Scourge :
“If someone burgles a house it is usually to steal items to sell, perhaps to feed a drug habit, perhaps to pay off debts or just to supplement a low income.”
———
Yes, thank you for that insight.
You may however (just about) recall that you wrote that there were “reasons” – and then, “main reasons” why the killing took place and you gave pne “main reason”.
You may also (just about) recall that I asked you what the other “reasons”/”main reasons” were.
I’m now again inviting you to inform us all.
Off you go, laddy!
The Scourge ‘fesses up to Fedup :
“I was under the influence of liquid refreshments when I read his original comment.”
Not for the first time, I should say 🙂
Souces : Scourge posts passim.
MDJones briongs put his trump card :
“So two men just murder a soldier, hang around to be arrested and that doesn’t seem a little odd to you”
————
To which I would say : no odder than someone wearing a suicide belt blowing himself up together with his victims.
“Once more unto the Breach.”
Hurrah Hurrah Prince Harry s going to wah,
To win back home a medal from his Pa
Our feudal relic s off to kill
Those Afghan chappies-such a thrill.
And will he wear his Nazi gear?
Oh will he ever never fear.
What a hero in a chopper
Happy as a sales day shopper
Picking victims just like sweaters
He will show them we’re their betters.
Tickerty boo and don’t yer know
Burning babies give quite a glow
When Hellfire missiles strike their home
For they’ve not got an iron dome!
Infanticide and Genocide
What fun that Hell is on our side!
Hurrah Hurrah Prince Harry s going to wah
To bring back home more booty for Papa.
C.I.A. estimates of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth – 2/3 Trillion dollars. Alan Greenspan on Iraq “It is regrettable that it is not politically expedient to state that the Iraq war is about oil” We murder millions for money,strange that anyone might object? The stench of hypocrisy is overwhelming and my most sincere condolences to the family of Lee Rigby,another of the bliar’s victims.As to our so called judges, to Nuremberg with the lot of them. Media Lens speaks more sense than others.