What we are seeing in Egypt is counter-revolution pure and simple, military hardliners who are going to be friendly with Israel and the US, and are committing gross human rights abuse.
Western backed counter-revolution is going to be sweeping back across the Middle East; do not be distracted by the words of the West, watch the deeds. It will of course be in the name of secularism. There is an important correlation between what is happening in Turkey and Egypt. I made myself unpopular when I pointed out what the media did not tell you, that behind the tiny minority of doe-eyed greens in the vanguard of the Istanbul movement, stood the massed phalanxes of kemalist nationalism, a very ugly beast. “Secularism” was the cry there too.
Arsalan, much of what you iterate is simply regurgitated Hizb ut Tahrir propaganda. You appear to have swallowed their entire oeuvre.
In the end, whatever you call yourselves (and you can call yourselves the Crack Coke Raving Loony Party, for all I care) your (I speak not, now of you, personally, but of that cult with which you have identified yourself) actions on the ground – in Syria, Libya, Pakistan, elsewhere – is the hard evidence that what you bring to Muslims and others is an age of darkness. Blood and soil is what you bring.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir
Their entire political philosophy is one of avoidance and distorting history into polemic to suit their simplistic world view. This represents a descent into political psychosis.
Arsalan appears to be trying to use the tactics they use on white liberal lecturers and so on in universities whenever they are challenged. It doesn’t work on me and it is patently absurd even to attempt to use those simplistic tactics. I know what they’ve done and I know what they are. I know their arguments and their tactics.
Does not Arsalan’s mode of argumentation remind one a little of that of Alfred Burdett, the white supremacist retired academic who used to post here on a regular basis, when Dr Burdett continued to insist that there had been, “genocide in Leicester”? For Alfred, it was curry and mitochondria. For Arsalan, it is “kaffirs” and a ‘Star Wars’ vision of human history.
This is all toxic nonsense and it must be confronted and opposed in a vigorous and consistent manner.
http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/index.php/EN/bshow/1716
And in the UK, just as the EDL/BNP/NF et al attempt to exploit the racist murders of white people, and deliberately provoke, so too the Islamists attempt to exploit the racist murders of black and brown people for their own purposes. Both these extremist groupings would like to see more murder and mayhem on tribal grounds. They would like to see, ‘Syria’ everywhere. And neither are viable responses to neoliberal economics or the systematisation of imperial war that is both its generator and its instrument.
“You do all this in the way Jim crow America refused to allow blacks on the front of buses using the example of what some African tribes do in Africa.
That is why I call you a racist. It was never meant as an insult.” Arsalan.
What utter nonsense.
Arsalan,
Well, read what I said again:
The difference is stark, Arsalan – Islam is a religion that is peaceful and a billion or so people subscribe to it. Your version, hardline theocratic Islamism, is an abomination of it, a corruption. It becomes undemocratic, violent, and stifles creativity and freedom.
Here you say:
I think you’re getting two issues confused. This is what we were talking about initially, the Egyptian revolution. I took the view that a new government should be formed because people were fed up of the Morsi government, not because of their Islamic faith. I’ve already said that I would respect the result if the Morsi government won a new vote, but you claimed not to believe me.
So, to recap, I am inclined to oppose the continuation of the Morsi government because I think they have no democratic mandate. I am not of the view that they were an Islamist government, and it did not look like they would become one. As I have made clear though, I have not opposed them on the grounds of their faith.
Perhaps, then, this is the problem:
Here you are insisting that, to implement Islam fully, one must have an Islamic state. That’s fine up to a point, if it has the consent of the people. But must it tear down democracy, as a Sharia system would do? Must it focus on veils and beards rather than female education and health statistics? Must it drive out all creativity and entrepreneurialism in favour of purity of religion?
So, again, for the umpteenth time: the word “Islamist” in the context it is being used here is not racist or derogatory. It means a very specific thing: a hardline, intolerant form of religious governance. I appreciate it is used in a lazy context by the hard right and the mass media, and I agree that is unpleasant. If there is a word that we can use instead, I will consider using it, but in the meantime, “Islamic” and “Islamist” is not the same thing, at all.
No, not true. Your permanent appeals to racism cannot be used to justify anything you like, Arsalan.
Some years ago, I spoke for a while to representatives of the local Ahmadiyya Muslim community in Leamington, and I wonder if their message might be interesting to you. They believe that equality, freedom and peace are especially important, and they emphasise it in their teachings.
Suhayl Saadi
21 Jul, 2013 – 8:44 am
The blood soil is already there. the secularists didn’t need people who believe in all of Islam to slaughter their populations.
You sound like Karimov, isn’t that the excuse he uses to slaughter his population?
And this isn’t about any particular group. Because you reject any ruling by Islam. You have a trancated ISlam, where you have selected the parts of the Quran that you would consider Islam from the parts you call Islamism.
We can call you, a Karimov without a state, and Karimov is exactly what you would be if you had one.
Don’t pretend to try and box me and say “you are them”. When you reject not just all political groups that are guided by Islam, but also non-political movements that are guided by Islam.
Jon.
democratic mandate is only what you say it isn’t isn’t it?
It is the will of the tiny minority that lost the election and not of the majority that won it?
It is the will of the ones that agree with you?
That brings me to how you view ruling by Islam. It is you and sahal that say anything but secularism is bloodshed. it is I that say the opposite. Most Blood is on the hands of the secularists.
And when it comes to you stating what the majority of Muslims are, it is amzing you pick a tiny sect which everyone but themselves regard as outside of the fold of islam.
Just as what you say about vertues of secularism is false. As can be seen by viewing every effort to enforce secularism on the Muslim world.
What the Qadyanis say about themselves is also false.
“equality, freedom and peace”
Where was their belief in Equality and freedom? They were founded during British rule in India, in which they supported colonialism and opposed the independents movement.
And where is their belief in peace, when they join the BRitish Army and give their full support to British wars.
These are just slogans. But the reason they are reguarded is non-Muslims is the fact they believe in a Prophet after Mohummed pbh, when Muslims believe he was the last and final Prophet.
SS and Jon
it is very dishonest of you to try an indicate my views are that of a tiny minority while yours are the views of Muslims.
Remember this thread is about, people who believe in the fact that the religion of the people should have a say in the running of the state winning the election by a massive margine. When it comes to the upper house, it was more than 80%.
To say that isn’t a democratic mandate, is hypocrisy and dishonesty.
To say that you believe in democracy but not the election that elects people who YOU wouldn’t have voted for is hypocrisy.
But what I call racism, is your attitude, that the Egyption people are so thick that they would all just vote for some people, not knowing they are what you call Islamist, and then before the ink is dry, say, “oh shittt, ticked the wrong box”, and then a millitry coup is the will of the people.
And Jon, it is you that says Muslims that believe in the parts of the Quran that talk of affairs of state are bloodthirsty. All Muslims believe in all parts of the Quran. the fact that Muslims are not what you say ruling by Islam is, doesn’t mean they don’t believe in ruling by Islam. It means you are wrong about what you call “islamism”.
I don’t really believe you and SS are wrong, I believe you are lying.
Arsalan, you are entirely correct. Succinctly put.
Although I would further expand; through respect for self-determination and autonomy of the “lesser men/savages/Islam-ists/etc” the knock-on effect/domino effect will be a more responsive mode of governance in the West. ie when two million people march on London, the government just simply does not ignore them and still go to a war of its choice to kill millions of Iraqis and then prevaricate it has only killed one hundred thousand Iraqis.
It is lamentable that whilst “liberals/benign reactionaries” on this board and elsewhere are too busy suppressing/denouncing the political aspirations of the “lesser men/savages/Islam-ists/etc”. They are paving the way for the nonsense to be pumped out by the various “nice men on the telly”. Who put a spin on dictatorial conduct as “strong leadership”, my fucking foot. Alas “strong leadership” is the pay off, of trying to civilise the savages. Eventually we all become savages to be civilised by our “betters” whom have reasonable ground to dictate to us all through “strong leadership”.
I forgot!
Arsalan,
There, fixed it for you 🙂
Can you fix “Islam-ism/ists” for us too mate? 🙂
Jon, you stated that “Islam is a religion that is peaceful”. Do you know of examples of religions that are not peaceful? Can you advise what criteria might be used to determine whether a religion is peaceful or not?
Jemand – Censorship Improves History
He wont answer it honestly I will.
No religions are peaceful except one.
Only one religion calls for pacafism. It isn’t Judaism, it isn;t christianity, as i am not a lying hypcrit I will admit, it isn;t Islam.
It isn’t Bodhism.
The only religion that is peaceful is Jainism.
But even Jains fought wars. Not just wars of defense, but also wars of agression and conquest just like everyone else.
It is humans that are violent. Islam does not say turn the other cheeck. No religion except Jainism truely does. But even they don’t practice it.
What Islam does is provide rules of war. It tells us when we must fight and when we must not.
I’m not saying all Muslims obey these laws. Even some Muslims who claim to follow Islam find excusses round these laws, just as jains play games with their scripture when it comes to war. Muslims are not perfect, But Islam is.
It’s pretty the party line from Hizb ut-Tahrir we’re getting here from Arsalan and FedUp. Passerby/Cryptonym must be on sabbatical. Check out their website and you’ll see what I mean.
“I don’t really believe you and SS are wrong, I believe you are lying.” Arsalan.
Nice.
The only other poster who regularly has referred to me as, “SS” is Dr Alfred Burdett, the Canadian white supremacist whose main argument was that there had been “genocide” in Leicester, England, commited by Indians against the British.
I most certainly am not, ‘SS’.
The key question, it seems to me, is, who really is advocating the policies of the blackshirt?
Fcuk off man if you cannot be arsed to write a proper rebuttal, then skip coming here and throwing a line or two, only yo fuck off and get on with finger banging Mary Jane rotten crutch.
This will be of course Moded away but your shite will be left smeared all over the board.
Trying my fucking patience!
Delightful, Fedup. (Your personality in a nutshell, I might add.)
———————–
The question I’m asking myself, is, what has happened to the Arsalan we used to know? Has be been “converted”? Is he now another (type of) person with different beliefs?
I never before saw him being so rude, or so aggressive, or for that matter, so voluble.
Or, expounding the kind of stuff he is now.
And Arsalan, to call people “liars” who are debating with you in good faith here, is just not acceptable. For starters.
Suhayl Saadi
21 Jul, 2013 – 3:05 pm
Khilafah isn’t the private property of HT. The Hadith are the words of our Prophet pbh not of any group.
Abu Bakr, Umar Uthman and Ali were not members of HT, they were companians of the Prophet pbh. The Umayad, Abasid and Ottomans were not members of the group, they existed long before.
Again you enter dishonesty, well, at least you were honest about being a communist, thanks for that.
Dreoilin
I am still the same person. I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with me. It is dishonesty and hypocrisy which I don’t like.
Others on this thread have said they do agree with the millitry coup. I didn’t take issue with them, because they did so honestly and without hypocrisy. Admiting that they don’t believe in democracy.
Fedup: that’s plainly abusive, as well as featuring (nonsensical) strains of sexual violence. Rather unpleasant, surely? I am inclined however to let it stand, as readers need to see the characters involved in this debate when they reveal themselves.
My invitation to hear something about your background, “perhaps with some non-identifying detail”, still stands. I think having people here say something about roughly where they live, or their broad political worldview, or what they do for a living, is useful. The suggestion is extended to Passerby and Cryptonym too.
What is the point. I can’t prove it anyway unless I give information revealing who I am like my address and bank account details.
By not giving any information about myself. I only need to prove the points I make and not details about my private life.
Anyway, one bit of information I will reveal. I am Muslim. It is ramdhan. I should be spending it in worship and not on forums. Bye, I might be back after eid.
Arsalan, I’m not of the view that giving personal information is of help, but non-identifying information sometimes adds some colour and human reality. Me, I’m sitting in a cafe in Birmingham, England at the moment, listening to Feist on headphones. That reminds me: if I need cheering up, I watch this – it is completely childish, and I love it. It’s even better if you know her material – she’s clearly willing to goof off and not take herself too seriously! If you have kids, put ’em in front of it.
I sense this discussion is coming to a close, so thanks for sharing your thoughts, even if we didn’t come to agreement. Enjoy Ramadan, and I hope at least that – even if it has felt like an onslaught – you have taken food for thought here. Best wishes to you.
Why is there a need for my resume?
At this late stage?
What late stage?
1- You assumed I was religious.
2- I have lent a hand to the under dog that needs to be helped.
3- There is a huge respect deficit to human rights, that is my rights, your rights, and everyone else’s rights.
4- The collapse of the USSR only helped the virulent “capitalists”* (ie plutocrats, oligarchs, and feudal overlords) to be emboldened (using one of their own stock phrases) and further erode our rights.
5- With the levels of illiteracy of 78% in Pakistan the only way forward is through organic organisations crystallised around their Islamic faith, whilst ensuring against the Deobandi and Wahhabi influences.
6- Vested interests in security and mayhem will stop at nothing to spike the progress of these societies. Tere is lots more profit in murder than life. Killing happens so quick and not much planning is needed for it, a speedy return on the capital deployed. Life needs lot more patience and effort and then there is the emergent competition from the stable societies that would complicate the rule of the said fuckwits. Those whom verily believe they have an entitlement and a divine right to remain at the “apex”.
7- The same is true of Afghanistan, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Dubai, Saudi, Somali, and so one. Swaths of humanity effectively sentenced to a stagnant existence without ever achieving any of the potential the is locked in such a vast human asset.
8- Their rights, are our rights! Our rights are their rights! For disrespect to their inalienable rights is disregard for our inalienable rights!
* Capitalism is a misnomer, for Capitalism to exist there is a need for free markets, the current rigged and fraudulent markets, and heavily regulated workers rights are anything but capitalism, a more accurate phrase perhaps could be measured slavery of autonomous slaves
Arsalan 21 Jul, 2013 – 2:34 pm
“It is humans that are violent.”
It is always worth remembering that most people live not being violent. Kropotkin argued there is considerably more cooperation than violence in nature and that cooperation produces excellent evolutionary outcomes. Attenborough peddles the law of the jungle as a framework to justify greed and war. So good news, it’s a dog lick dog world.
http://www.complementarycurrency.org/ccLibrary/Mutual_Aid-A_Factor_of_Evolution-Peter_Kropotkin.pdf
Different folks different stones and birds in the hand 🙂
I relax thus don’t forget to turn up the bass and fire up the volume.
Here is some more pump up the volume.
“Fcuk off man if you cannot be arsed to write a proper rebuttal, then skip coming here and throwing a line or two, only yo fuck off and get on with finger banging Mary Jane rotten crutch.” FedUp, 4:21pm.
Yes, I think that pretty much sums up the Islamist stance whenever subjected to serious challenge. Perhaps it ought to be left in place as a testament, a reference, an historical lexicographical monument that cannot be demolished.
Do have a peaceful Ramazan (and yes, I spelt it with a ‘z’). Good morning, peace be upon you and thank you.
SS
you sound like a Zionist who has just killed a bunch of Muslims in Ramadhan.
“Do you remember a peaceful Ramadhan”.
🙂
Lets be clear on this, that statement just like pretty much all your statements are an attack on Islam, and all Muslims. Not who you call Islamists. Muslims that believe in the parts of Islam you have rejected because they don’t fit in with your idiology.
It is all about imposing your ways on people you see as lesser humans isn’t it?
And then you pretend to be the one with the moral high ground.
Passer has never said he is Muslim. Well even if he is non-Muslim that shouldnt stop you using him as an example of Islamist should it. Remebering you did use the racist language of non-Muslim white south africans against non-Muslim black south africans, to say Islam and Muslims are bad, didn’t you?
What challenge? Is this another version of the fucking Schrödinger’s Cat? The challenge is seen by you and not the rest of us?
All you have done is to point your finger and let rip; Islam-ists, Islam-ists, Islam-ists, Islam-ists, Islam-ists, ……….. Hizb ut-Tahrir, …. Islam-ists!
If your political sensibilities find religion a threat, it is a sure-fire certainty that you will not be making much progress in among the religious demography which you are trying to convert to your political philosophy.
What is the fucking difference between your diatribes and the EDL’s; we are not against Islam, we just hate fucking Muslims?
For the umpteen time I am not a religious person, will you stop rounding up on me as an “Islam-ist”!
Peace be upon you both (all), Arsalan and Fedup (Passerby, Cryptonym…).
And here, we are told in sonorous tones that the ‘z’ in Ramazan is “an attack on all Muslims”. Naturally! Not only is ‘Z’ is for Zion and Zebedee, and “ziofuckwit”, it’s also Persian, for Khuda’s sake, and so really doesn’t fit the party line.
“And which end of the egg do you crack open every morning?” Dr Gulliver asked the Islamist.
“The Muslim end,” replies Anjem C, as he digs into his honeypot and pulls out a piece of albumen whose shape miraculously spells the Holy Name of The Security Service.
Peace be upon you both.
What are you smoking mate? Pass the bung to the next guy along, this shit isn’t doing your comments any good! 🙂
There are four “Z” and differing pronunciations there of in Arabic, and it is not Ramadan but Ramadzan (but here in UK it has come to be D), however the variances in dialects could also pronounce it RamaZan, However what has this got to do with the rest of the shit you have gone on about?
The reliquary that yields this sort of relics is a Christian and Hindu precept, but which secret service are we talking about? Prism, GCHQ, NAS,ISI, there are so many of these bastards and you playing twenty questions is not helping, it is late at night.
However what any of this crap has to do with our lines of debate?