The problem with the Geneva Communique from the first Geneva round on Syria is that the government of Syria never subscribed to it. It was jointly chaired by the League of Arab States for Syria, whatever that may mean. Another problem is that it is, as so many diplomatic documents are, highly ambiguous. It plainly advocates a power sharing executive formed by some of the current government plus the opposition to oversee a transition to democracy. But it does not state which elements of the current government, and it does not mention which elements of the opposition, nor does it make plain if President Assad himself is eligible to be part of, or to head, the power-sharing executive, and whether he is eligible to be a candidate in future democratic elections.
Doubtless the British, for example, would argue that the term transition implies that he will go. The Russians will argue there is no such implication and the text does not exclude anybody from the process. Doubtless also diplomats on all sides were fully aware of these differing interpretations and the ambiguity is quite deliberate to enable an agreed text. I would say that the text tends much more to the “western” side, and that this reflects the apparently weak military position of the Assad regime at that time and the then extant threat of western military intervention. There has been a radical shift in those factors against the western side in the interim. Expect Russian interpretations now to get more hardline.
Given the extreme ambiguity of the text, Iran has, as it frequently does, shot itself in the foot diplomatically by refusing to accept the communique as the basis of talks and thus getting excluded from Geneva. Iran should have accepted the communique, and then at Geneva issued its own interpretation of it.
But that is a minor point. The farcical thing about the Geneva conference is that it is attempting to promote into power-sharing in Syria “opposition” members who have no democratic credentials and represent a scarcely significant portion of those actually fighting the Assad regime in Syria. What the West are trying to achieve is what the CIA and Mossad have now achieved in Egypt; replacing the head of the Mubarak regime while keeping all its power structures in place. The West don’t really want democracy in Syria, they just want a less pro-Russian leader of the power structures.
The inability of the British left to understand the Middle East is pathetic. I recall arguing with commenters on this blog who supported the overthrow of the elected President of Egypt Morsi on the grounds that his overthrow was supporting secularism, judicial independence (missing the entirely obvious fact the Egyptian judiciary are almost all puppets of the military) and would lead to a left wing revolutionary outcome. Similarly the demonstrations against Erdogan in Istanbul, orchestrated by very similar pro-military forces to those now in charge in Egypt, were also hailed by commenters here. The word “secularist” seems to obviate all sins when it comes to the Middle East.
Qatar will be present at Geneva, and Qatar has just launched a pre-emptive media offensive by launching a dossier on torture and murder of detainees by the Assad regime, which is being given first headline treatment by the BBC all morning
There would be a good dossier to be issued on torture in detention in Qatar, and the lives of slave workers there, but that is another question.
I do not doubt at all that atrocities have been committed and are being committed by the Assad regime. It is a very unpleasant regime indeed. The fact that atrocities are also being committed by various rebel groups does not make Syrian government atrocities any better.
But whether 11,000 people really were murdered in a single detainee camp I am unsure. What I do know is that the BBC presentation of today’s report has been a disgrace. The report was commissioned by the government of Qatar who commissioned Carter Ruck to do it. Both those organisations are infamous suppressors of free speech. What is reprehensible is that the BBC are presenting the report as though it were produced by neutral experts, whereas the opposite is the case. It is produced not by anti torture campaigners or by human rights activists, but by lawyers who are doing it purely and simply because they are being paid to do it.
The BBC are showing enormous deference to Sir Desmond De Silva, who is introduced as a former UN war crimes prosecutor. He is indeed that, but it is not the capacity in which he is now acting. He is acting as a barrister in private practice. Before he was a UN prosecutor, he was for decades a criminal defence lawyer and has defended many murderers. He has since acted to suppress the truth being published about many celebrities, including John Terry.
If the Assad regime and not the government of Qatar had instructed him and paid him, he would now be on our screens arguing the opposite case to that he is putting. That is his job. He probably regards that as not reprehensible. What is reprehensible is that the BBC do not make it plain, but introduce him as a UN war crimes prosecutor as though he were acting in that capacity or out of concern for human rights. I can find no evidence of his having an especial love for human rights in the abstract, when he is not being paid for it. He produced an official UK government report into the murder of Pat Finucane, a murder organised by British authorities, which Pat Finucane’s widow described as a “sham”. He was also put in charge of quietly sweeping the Israeli murders on the Gaza flotilla under the carpet at the UN.
The question any decent journalist should be asking him is “Sir Desmond De Silva, how much did the government of Qatar pay you for your part in preparing this report? How much did it pay the other experts? Does your fee from the Government of Qatar include this TV interview, or are you charging separately for your time in giving this interview? In short how much are you being paid to say this?”
That is what any decent journalist would ask. Which is why you will never hear those questions on the BBC.
A Node, nice haiku. My favourite is still John Cooper Clarke’s:
To write a poem
in seventeen syllables
is very diffic . . .
Sofia, Mark, could not agree more with:
Italics“The land belongs to those who’s forefathers have lived on and worked on it for generations and no one, not even the UN, has the authority to take it from them, no mater how convenient. Palestine was taken from the Palestinians by force, that is not legal.”
Why does a statement of the obvious like that make some visitors here take the piss? Thanks Mark. 10 31pm
Pity them. They feel they have a job to do.
A Node thanks for the link. It was definitely a strain of US anthrax used in the letter bombs. That’s been proven. That the Israelis were also involved is highly likely.
I’ve just posted A Node’s link on a Dr David Kelly Facebook page to which I subscribe. My computer went mad with an unforgivable whirring noise. I suspect they do not want this knowledge out in the open. What have the Yanks got on China and Russian to stop them putting an end to this global nonsense that has cost so many lives?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PquqlX8wnT0
Off to bed. Catch up tomorrow.
Jophn Goss, from the PressTV article that you linked to:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/02/14/288935/britains-forgotten-war-crime-of-wwii/
This is what Anon and Habbabkuk are complaining about, and they are right. It was Nazi propaganda, and the true figure was about one tenth of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
There are other instances of PressTV recycling Nazi propaganda; I seem to remember seeing some there myself.
Various people should stop and think. The argument has become so polarised that “which side” people are on matters more than whether they’re right or wrong.
There are a lot of interest groups who like to play with the numbers, Clark.
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2004/0901-Buchanan.html
“BEGUN BY THE British, air terror was perfected by the Americans. A few weeks after Dresden, General Curtis LeMay’s B-29s went into action over Tokyo. Nicholas von Hoffman describes what happened:
On March 9, 1945, 179 American bombers, armed with incendiary bombs intended to torch the wood-and-paper Japanese capital appeared over Tokyo, a city with population density of 135,000 per square mile. All went according to plan. Tokyo was consumed by fire so ferocious that the heat boiled the water in the lakes and ponds, cooking those who fled to safety there like human lobsters. Official American figures put the death toll for that night’s raid at 87,000 people. Nobody knows what the true number is.
What is the moral difference between burning alive 87,000 people with incendiary bombs from five miles up-and burning to death 187 Czechs in a barn at Lidice?
In the documentary Fog of War, former Defense Secrefary Robert McNamara, who worked with LeMay on the plans to incinerate Japanese cities, says the general came to the conclusion that “if we’d lost, we’d be prosecuted as war criminals; and I think he was right. LeMay, and I, were acting like war criminals.”
Dresden was a cultural hub, but the LeMays of the World would like you to think it was also a military target with manufacturing bases. The attempts to sector the bombing into merely military targets seems an imaginary revision of the facts.
Resident Dissident, here, I guess we’re all adults. Go easy ’til you get used to it, there’s a delay, it can be ten minutes before you feel anything, so just have a bit…
<0~~~~
‘Right or wrong’ is too often on the side of the victors who record the histories. ‘Nuff said.
Yong Sofia, Mary, and any other Ladies oot there… Sorry for my lapse in decent wording…. But A Node has to bear some of the Blame …As his Wetware E.T device malfunctioned…. And that’s because he chose the Denzien’s of The LMC… ( The Magellanic Cloud)..When he should have spent a few more bob on the artifacts of the SML…
A Node
magic Haiku…Cheers Love writing Haiku…. and yes John…trust me Japanese to come up with such wonders of Literature.
Juveniles writing
Graffiti upon a Wall
To displace, a cyberspace.
I agree with Fred that quibbling about numbers is meaningless, and with Resident Dissident who I think condemned all such massacres of civilians – but this thread is too horrible to go back and check.
In John Goss’s position I’d have admitted my mistake.
I do not believe that Resident Dissident is Black Jelly – it’s obvious that Black Jelly is the same person who’s been coming here for years trying to decrease the number of victims of the Jewish Holocaust.
Resident Dissident did misquote John Goss; I expect it was just a mistake, but Resident Dissident should have noticed it when Fred mentioned it.
Habbabkuk and Resident Dissident got a lot of criticism for pressing John Goss to acknowledge the misinformation in the PressTV article, but they were right.
Things have got pretty far from sanity.
Funny thing is the only two live performances I’ve attended, Blind Faith (1969) and solo as here in 1985 were his most commercial periods, but he still manages the R and B edge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd7p-SrdyCI
Kool Ben… Next Saturday its off to Glasgow.. The Australian Pink Floyd are in town –
This Girl is a Catholic Priest…. She is famous for her angel voice…And in tears selling her house to the Ethiopan famine..hotline….and for ripping up the pope’s foto on LIVE tv… SHE IS REAL Irish Butter…. Check her oot here –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNwXFnqBzHg
Clark
Thank you.
LAPD Travels To Israel, Falls In Love With Drones And Mass Surveillance
by Rania Khalek on February 16, 2014
The HoverMast-100, an Israeli surveillance drone that the LAPD hopes to add to its arsenal. (Image source: Sky Sapience website)
The Jewish Journal has an incredible write-up on the Los Angeles Police Department’s recent visit to Israel.
For nine days early this month, eight of the LAPD’s highest ranking officers toured Israel on a trip organized by LAPD Deputy Chief and commander of the Counter-Terrorism and Special Operations Bureau Michael Downing, and headed by LAPD Information Technology Bureau commander Horace Frank.
While it’s unclear how much the trip cost taxpayers, Frank told the Journal that the trip was financed with “grant funding that was available for us to look at emergency technologies and best practices.”
Since 2001, the US government has doled out tens of billions of dollars in federal grants to local and state police departments in the name of fighting terrorism, so it’s likely that the grant that paid for the LAPD’s Israel trip came from DHS.
/..
http://raniakhalek.com/2014/02/16/lapd-travels-to-israel-and-falls-in-love-with-drones/
As Alison Weir says, If Americans Knew…….
We are good at bending the truth and telling tales and even utter fabrications all of which dispel any truth be it good or bad in the minds eye just is
Terrible news from Syria if only Britain could help bring peace. Open diplomacy needed.
Regarding numbers there is denial and disagreement on the big numbers Economic growth.some want capitalist some don’t socialist !
Understanding how economic growth is relevant to our well being in an egalitarian sense would perhaps alter how we spread the planets wealth and our efforts could be capitalised for the good of all humanity.
That saying we should start at the bottom and help he most needy.
Clark. 12 56am
You are a lovely man I know, and sometimes we don’t talk nicely to each other here, but WTF?
Why are you trying to be so even-handed?
As though quibbling about numbers means that people who defend actions like this and this are not cheerleaders for brutality or mass murder.
If burglars break in to my house, beat and kill some of my family, take our stuff and throw us out I would expect common sense as well as rule of law to motivate my neighbours in bringing them to justice and getting us back home.
I don’t want to get into pointless civilized discussions as to whether they killed one or three of my siblings.
You seem to be appealing for some kind of moral equivalence in this dialogue between victims and perpetrators.
The troll crows that he outed me. Some self congratulation there. I don’t suppose that there’s any chance of an acknowledgement that he persecuted me and caused hurt for many months. A weaker person than me might have succumbed as we read of cruel cyber bullying (which is what it was) and its tragic effects.
Trolls should think very carefully.
Clark, I agree that the article is misleading, and probably intentionally misleading. However, to take one sentence out of the context of the whole article is also misleading. It starts by saying:
“More than 500,000 German civilians and refugees, mostly women and children, were slaughtered by Britain’s saturation bombing in 1945, one of the worst massacres of all time.”
This figure may also be an exaggeration. How does anyone know? That the bombing killed mostly women and children is almost certainly true. There is so much propaganda from all sides that nobody listening to MSM can believe anything nay more. Even historians have their own agendas on this and quote figures that support their particular stance. But that sentence:
“More than 260,000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted after British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) assaulted Dresden. “
What the sentence could be construed as saying is that that the RAF and USAAF counted more than 260,000 bodies and body parts over raids in Germany following the assault on Dresden. But I agree, whether intentionally or not, it does mislead. Nevertheless I return to my first argument that if you and your family are a victim of war or torture figures are not important. To many who comment on this blog their purpose is not to debate but to point score, and to one, the one who appears to believe in torture, I would never apologise. His morals are below my contempt. And others who believe the US has a legitimate right, against worldwide opposition to have an embargo on Cuba and a gulag at Guantanamo Bay their opinions too fall below my contempt. To all others, including Brian Fujisan, I apologise if my comments were misleading.
Growth of Racism and Religious Extremism in Israel: A Challenge to Friends
Feb-13-2014
Repeatedly claiming that Israel is “Jewish and democratic” — and demanding that the world recognize it as such — does not make it so. It is sad to see American Jewish organizations, which have been vocal in opposing all forms of racism and intolerance in our own society, turn a blind eye to the growth of racism and intolerance in Israel, which they seem to support no matter what it does. This is not being a good friend. Friends don’t let friends drive drunk which, unfortunately, Israel now seems to be doing. What does this blindness about what is happening tell us about the real values of Israel’s vocal American supporters? They owe us an explanation.
Allan C. Brownfeld, editor of ISSUES, the journal of the American Council for Judaism
(WASHINGTON, DC) – In a thoughtful new study guide issued by the Israel/Palestine Mission of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), a question is asked which few have thus far been willing to pose: “Given the liberal values shared by many American Jews and the long, proud tradition of Jewish participation in the struggle for human rights worldwide, why has there been so little outrage expressed at Israel’s human rights abuses of Palestinians in the decades since Israel’s founding?”
Paul Krugman, Princeton economist and New York Times columnist, offers a personal answer: “The truth is that like many liberal American Jews—and most American Jews are still liberal—I basically avoid thinking about where Israel is going.”
Beyond this, Krugman points to the high price for speaking out, which is “to bring yourself under intense attack from organized groups that try to make any criticism of Israeli policies tantamount to anti-Semitism.”
/..
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/february132014/israel-prejudice-ab.php
Mary, the trolls are not interested in people’s feelings. When the blog restarted it looked like it might be returning to the good old days until “they” returned. Ignore them! It is the only way. But if only one of the decent people who comment here entertains any one of them they have won a victory of sorts in that you could be doing something useful with the time you waste on addressing their futile arguments. Ignore them! Let them talk amongst themselves.
The naivety and this attempt at political opportunism by Clegg are astounding.
‘Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg tells BBC documentary about prospect of coalition with Labour after next general election’
Doesn’t the hollow man know that he’s had it? I have heard of ‘clutching at straws’ but he is just ridiculous.
Nick Clegg says Lib Dem-Labour coalition possible
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26222407
The most prescient comment on the whole of this blog is from Craig Murray himself when in response to ESLO wrote:
“ESLO
It is plain the intention of the commissioners of the report is not to investigate atrocities in Syria, but to push again for Western military intervention. Part of a strategy which will next involve a staged breakdown of the Geneva talks.”
With all the trolling that has being and is going on it would have been possible to miss Doug Scorgie’s comment and link yesterday: 16 Feb, 2014 – 10:18 am
“Syria talks: UK and France blame government for collapse”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26213826
As Doug said:
“So, by insisting on changing the agenda and demanding something that the opposition know is unacceptable to the government side, the talks collapsed.
It’s a common tactic and the western media will report dutifully that it was the Assad government side that caused the failure of the talks.”
Note the troll who believes in torture was straight in after this trying to change the subject. Let’s try and get the blog back on topic. I know I have been guilty too.
John. 8 40am
“Mary, the trolls are not interested in people’s feelings.”
But they are John, and they think and plan very carefully so as to find the best ways to upset peoples’ feelings. That’s how discussions are derailed and diverted in defence of the indefensible.
As for the relentless tartgeting of Mary, it’s clear what didn’t kill her sure hade her stronger.
Mary you’re a star. Keep plenty of A node’s Scroll-a-Pest on hand. You’ll need it for certain.
I find it interesting that while Mary is happy to point to the words of valid words of Paul Krugman as to why liberal Jews are muted in their criticism of the Israeli Government which can be found in full on his NYT blog over two years ago when he praised Beinart’s brave blog, is that we find no bravery here from Mary or others in wanting to make a stand against the clear anti-semitism of Dieudonne. In fact there are even those such as a Node who are more than happy to enlist racists such as Dieudonne to their anti-Zionist cause.
Those who bother to read what people actually say will also note that Resident Dissident joined Krugman and Beinart in acknowledging that the techniques and actions of some Zionists go beyond that which is acceptable – and I will happily add my name to that list. But where are the equivalents among our resident anti-Zionists?
It is quite possible to support a cause while also accepting the point that its supporters do unacceptable things – and the intelligent realise that such acknowledgements are necessary for the development of the trust that will be required for any peaceful reconciliation.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/the-crisis-of-zionism/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0#
John Goss
Re my comments on the Syrian talks – perhaps you should read the article from Robert Fisk that I also linked to, which takes a different view from Craig’s as to the purpose of the the Qatar report – namely to put pressure on Russia to bring its client regime under control. I have always thought that this is the way forward – but Putin clearly has other more pressing things on his mind at present.
Yes ESLO I saw the Fisk piece, which actually Mike linked to, and the disturbing photographs, and commented on Qatar’s record as a proponent of human rights. But Craig called it. You didn’t. I think you should acknowledge that.
ESLO
By the way Fisk asked a question:
“Does Qatar now hope to divide Syria’s alliance with Russia and Iran with similar evidence of Syrian government mass murder?”
He does not exactly share your view. Qatar, awarded the 2022 World Cup because of its wonderful record as a free state, is a great example of democracy at work. But Assad, like Bush, Obama, Blair and Cameron have all presided over regimes that believe in torture to get the results they want. Russia appears to be the only country that wants peace in the Middle East and North and East Africa. That is not to say it does not historically have a poor human rights record too. But the main warmonger of the twenty-first century is the Israeli-backed USA. Thank God the Russians, or someone, took out the Israeli missiles, or perhaps we would already have that war in Syria.
Muhammad Mursi is now accused of Spying on the Egyptian people as well as the trumped-up charges of terror attacks. When a Western government spies on its citizens it can use the information, twist it and give it to its other clients which control citizens’ ordinary lives, such as employers, police, mosques, schools, and government agencies.
Superpowers of all political colours turn these clients into actual governments, making a Police State, an Islamist State, a Politburo State, or in the case of Assad, a Torture State’. We the fellow citizens of the world must recognise that the superpowers are primarily responsible for creating this oppression.
If Mursi was spying and oppressing, USUKIS created his power they and should be held to blame. As a Muslim in the UK I am surrounded by mini-Mursis who work with the security agencies against freedom of expression and freedom of belief. Islam is indistinguishable from the intelligence services in the UK, as it is in the war in Syria.
I just wonder if we can rely on the assumption that the global superpowers will keep little UK as part of the management team, being run from leafy/ sewagey Surrey, with our traditional freedoms very tightly controlled as at present, or whether we might soon become one of the NWO’s oppressor client states, run from Baghdad by Muqtadā al-Ṣadr or by Prince Bandar in Tel Aviv.
“John. 8 40am
“Mary, the trolls are not interested in people’s feelings.”
But they are John, and they think and plan very carefully so as to find the best ways to upset peoples’ feelings. That’s how discussions are derailed and diverted in defence of the indefensible.”
Well, yes, I agree Sofia. This is why we should en bloc deaf them out.