Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.
We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.
What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.
Yes, John Goss and yes Mary, everybody knows that the US shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988 and that it was a disgrace. So, the question is if we can denounce the perpetrators of that action, what do we do now about this shoot-down?
Do we start wailing about how poor old Putin is the real victim in this horrific act? Or do we start trying desperately to make the whole picture more confusing than it needs to be? Or maybe it should be denounced in the same terms as you did when the US shot down the IR655?
As for this: “Lack of clarity as to who fired the missile is likely to persist for weeks, at least. Meanwhile, the shootdown provides raw meat for those who will use it to blacken Russia, just as the downing of KAL007 in 1983 allowed the Reagan administration to hype charges that the Soviet Union ‘deliberately’ downed a passenger aircraft. ” (Ray McGovern)
As far as I know the main lines of evidence do indeed point to an accidental shoot-down of MH-17. However, this is not the problem so much as the obvious refusal to admit guilt as well as the cover-up.
Remember that with both IR655 and KAL007 both responsible parties initially tried to deny their involvement and then to try and blame someone else for their act. This seems to be happening right now with MH-17. Lots of Putin fans are rushing to the barricades with all kinds of risible conspiracy theories and BS attempts to deflect attention. This is almost funny given the daily fulminations against venal ideologues that appear in the comments boxes on this blog.
@John(2)
Russia must be aware of the way the global media & powerful governments have worked together, and against such a backdrop they did really well to get a slice of the media with “The First Man in Space”. They wouldn’t have managed that without having a powerful empire. The end of the USSR was the end of more than most of us realised at the time.
“Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile”
I would like to know what evidence Obama is referring to here. If there is any evidence it is not in the public domain as far as I can tell. All we know for sure is that MH 17 exploded and crashed in Ukraine. There is video footage of the explosion and there is wreckage on the ground, as yet uninvestigated. What other evidence is there? (Deleted Twitter accounts don’t count).
Good point about the Iranian airliner. That was in 1988 when the USSR still had a powerful news machine. If the US shot down an Iranian airliner today there’d be no news about it at all. I remember earlier on this thread reading (for the first time) that Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner in 2001 (same year as 9/11). I don’t remember that event getting too much media exposure.
If the US shot down an Iranian airliner today there’d be no news about it at all. I remember earlier on this thread reading (for the first time) that Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner in 2001 (same year as 9/11). I don’t remember that event getting too much media exposure.
If the US shot down an Iranian airliner today there would be a massive amount of news about it.
The shootdown of the Russian airliner is another example of an airliner when those responsible initially denied it then admitted it. I think you will find the same thing will happen with MH-17, except of course that those who are denying the Russian separatists had anything to do with it will be moving on to argue why either it was Ukraine’s fault some other way.
By the way, I was going to mention the previous shootdown of a plane over Ukraine but I expected that any mention of it would lead to people going Isrealibananas over it.
Awk! The Zionists! Awk!
Clintons Reinstigated the Cold War with Russia
by John V. Walsh / July 18th, 2014
Ever more antiwar voices are clamoring for a Stop Hillary Clinton movement in the Democratic primaries – and with very good reason. There are many alarming, indeed frightening, indictments of her tenures as one-half president in the 90s and then as Senator and Secretary of State. Her estranged relationship with truth, her callousness toward human life and her love for every imperial military adventure and regime change scheme are beyond worrisome. They are downright scary.
But the most damning indictment yet of the Clintons on the world stage comes in the book Superpower Illusions by former Ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock. The book came out way back in 2009, but it is worth examining again as we confront the possibility of a return to Clintonism. And Matlock is a man who knows whereof he speaks. Wikipedia gives a summary of his career thus:
Jack Foust Matlock, Jr. (born October 1, 1929) is a former American ambassador, career Foreign Service Officer, a teacher, a historian, and a linguist. He was a specialist in Soviet affairs during some of the most tumultuous years of the Cold War, and served as U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987 to 1991.
[..]
He gets to the point right away in the preface to Superpower Illusions: “The Clinton administration’s decision to expand NATO to the East rather than draw Russia into a cooperative arrangement to ensure European security undermined the prospects of democracy in Russia, made it more difficult to keep peace in the Balkans and slowed the process of nuclear disarmament started by Presidents Reagan and Gorbachev.”
That is a severely damaging condemnation of the Clintons, one of historic dimensions, as we see now as events unfold in Ukraine, with one of Hillary’s protégés, her State Department spokeswoman, Victoria Nuland, very much in charge of the U.S. intervention there. Matlock was so appalled by the Clintons that he changed his political affiliation: “After I retired from the Foreign Service, I left the Democratic Party early in the Clinton presidency. I felt that President Clinton… lacked both the vision and the competence to take advantage of the opportunity the end of the Cold War and the breakup of the Soviet Union provided. That opportunity was nothing less than a chance to create a world in which security tasks could be shared, weapons of mass destruction reduced rapidly and barriers to nuclear proliferation raised.”
/..
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/07/clintons-reinstigated-the-cold-war-with-russia/
Ангрысоба:
I meant that, although it would be reported, there would not no pointing the finger at one country on the “global” media, least of all the US. Would you disagree with this?
I keep reading (various websites and Twitter accounts) that the bodies on the ground are in a state of decomposition that they shouldn’t be if they’d just been killed when the plane was “shot down”.
I have no corroboration, other than seeing photos of people near the wreckage holding cloths to their noses.
Can anyone suggest why this would be?
“I meant that, although it would be reported, there would not no pointing the finger at one country on the “global” media, least of all the US. Would you disagree with this?”
Yes, I would disagree.
Fair enough! I hope you are right.
A compilation of research/info/reports etc is here.
Not sure what it all means yet, but I suspect monkey business is going on, with the McCain war drums beating….
Dreoilin,
Check the link I posted ^, there is some info/reports concerning these claims…
“Can anyone suggest why this would be?”
The bodies wouldn’t be decomposed, they would be burnt.
The smell of burnt flesh is as repulsive as that of decomposed flesh.
Thanks Bert.
I was just watching this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Fr7cvqZr8
which is suggesting that there was an explosion on the ground alright, but no sign of anything falling from the sky beforehand. No smoke trail, no burning debris, nothing. Looked more like a building being blown up.
“The bodies wouldn’t be decomposed, they would be burnt.”
But people are not saying “burnt”, they’re saying decomposed. And drained of blood.
Talking of untrustworthy US investigations into disasters, I was browsing free non-fiction audiobooks and came across “The 9/11 Commission Report”. Shurely shome mishtake?
http://www.booksshouldbefree.com/genre/Non-fiction
A building being blown up?
Then why did the rebels go to such lengths to fake a crash site?
https://www.google.com/search?q=mh-17+crash&tbm=isch&ei=CG7KU-XHJ4Wl8AWXwIFI#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=QeFwjV58QR0vDM%253A%3BY1ARv59IeJaUMM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thestar.com%252Fcontent%252Fdam%252Fthestar%252Fnews%252Fworld%252F2014%252F07%252F18%252Fmh17_ukraine_claim_to_have_found_crashed_malaysia_airlines_planes_recorders%252Fmh17_crash_site.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thestar.com%252Fnews%252Fworld%252F2014%252F07%252F18%252Fmh17_ukraine_claim_to_have_found_crashed_malaysia_airlines_planes_recorders.html%3B545%3B365
“Then why did the rebels go to such lengths to fake a crash site?”
I have no idea, Angry. I’m just pointing out some things that seemed odd.
Maybe the disappeared MH370 was in a hanger there. In storage, like. For a false flag. 🙂
And why aren’t you posting under your original handle?
Did you think Ангрысоба would confuse us?
@Bert: hadn’t thought of that. but this news item did disappear rather quickly:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28313285
Also, Ron Paul seems to be dropping hints:
http://rt.com/usa/174008-ron-paul-malaysia-ukraine-crash/
For the useless idiot
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117921/refugees-ukraine-thousands-have-fled-their-homes
“is because you are still angry with me for exposing your duplicitous nature as being ESLO by day and Resident Dissident by night and weekends, and shamefacedly praising one by the other and vice versa.”
Don’t give a damn to be honest as I know the true facts of my relationship with ESLO and you don’t. Being called a fascist and insinuations about my family is something else.
Dreoilin: Maybe the disappeared MH370 was in a hanger there. In storage, like. For a false flag. 🙂
:O
Ah, I wondered when that idea might make its appearance. The thing that makes that unlikely, among many other things, is that some of the videos that were released showed passports of the dead from MH-17 being held up to the camera. And we know that those aboard have disappeared.
Did you think Ангрысоба would confuse us?
No, not at all. I think I changed my handle way back during the threads on Yanukovych leaving and Russia taking over Crimea. I posted in one or two threads using both Latin and Cyrillic and thought it was obvious to others that it was me. When I came back the other day I noticed that I was still Ангрысоба and thought there was no need to change it back for a thread related to Russia.
How are things, anyway? I hope you are well. 🙂
Mechanism of Provocation
NKVD Officercassad_eng
July 18th, 23:03
From that which can be now said for sure.
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/30000.html
~~~
PS The smell of burning flesh is horrible btw.
I see that the realms of fantasy are being entered into.
Bodies are being recovered and taken to nearby morgues.
http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2014/7/19/324274/default/v1/rebel-and-officials-1-626×352.jpg
Looks pretty real to me.
http://news.sky.com/story/1303759/rebels-accused-of-taking-bodies-from-wreckage
I’m grand, Angry, thanks.
I raised the disappeared MH370 for fun, really.
But I read something else which I thought was interesting. (Speculation, again.) Some guy said that people he knew in the aviation industry told him that Boeing had sold Malaysian Airlines several 777s with faulty transponders, which identify the planes as military. He said there had been at least 5 previous episodes of misidentification. That in each case the country concerned had sent up military jets to check out the MA plane, identified it as civilian, and left it alone. He said they don’t contact the pilots in these cases.
He also said that that theory had surfaced in regards to MH370 but quickly vanished as it would have meant accusing 2-3 regional countries – in the area where the plane initially disappeared.
A lot of conspiracy ideas floating around.
But the US weren’t doing very well in getting Putin to “bite”. Now they’re throwing the book at him. I find it suspicious.
Although, yes, there can be accidents. And coincidences.
Dreoilin: But I read something else which I thought was interesting. (Speculation, again.) Some guy said that people he knew in the aviation industry told him that Boeing had sold Malaysian Airlines several 777s with faulty transponders, which identify the planes as military. He said there had been at least 5 previous episodes of misidentification. That in each case the country concerned had sent up military jets to check out the MA plane, identified it as civilian, and left it alone. He said they don’t contact the pilots in these cases.
I don’t know anything about these things but what I would suggest is that if these 777s were flying around with transponders identifying themselves as military somebody other than those who presumably shot them down would have mentioned it by now to Malaysian Airlines if nobody else. But anyway, “some guy said that people he knew…told him” is a low bar when it comes to accepting theories about 777s flying around squawking military codes without Malaysian Airlines knowing about it.
“But anyway, “some guy said that people he knew…told him” is a low bar when it comes to accepting theories about 777s flying around squawking military codes without Malaysian Airlines knowing about it.”
Yes, agree. Just throwing out the interesting stuff I read last night, in case any of it rings a bell with anyone.
There’s another one: Apparently it’s a fact that Ukrainian military brought a BUK missile battery into the Donetsk region only a matter of days ago. There is speculation that they were test-firing it, and doing so incompetently. Apparently the same military brought down a plane by accident before, in the Black Sea.
(I think I’m done with the theories now)
Normal flying height for Malaysian Airlines 777s is 35000 feet (fact). So why instructed to fly, and tracked as flying, at 33000 feet? In terms of what happened, even sceptics should see this as suspicious.