There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.
It is impossible to stop evil from happening. Simple low tech attacks by individuals, a kind of DIY terrorism, cannot always be pre-empted. If you try to do so universally, you will end up even further down the line we have gone down in the UK, where people are continually arrested and harassed who have no connection to terrorism at all, often for bragging on websites. These non-existent foiled terrorist plots are a risible feature of British politics nowadays. Every now and then one hits the headlines, like the arrests just before Remembrance Day. Their defining characteristic is that none of those arrested have any means of terrorism – 99% of those arrested for terrorism in the UK in the last decade – possessed no weapon and no viable explosive device.
In fact the only terrorist in the last year convicted in the UK, who possessed an actual bomb – a very viable explosive device indeed, was not charged with terrorism. He was a fascist named Ryan McGee who had a swastika on his wall and hated Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims with no weapons are locked up for terrorism. A fanatical anti-Muslim with a bomb is by definition not a terrorist.
I am assuming that the narrative that Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamists is correct, though that remains to be proved. For argument, let us assume the official narrative is true and the killings were by Muslims outraged at the magazine’s depictions of the Prophet Mohammed.
It is essential to free speech that it includes the freedom to offend. That must include the freedom to offend religious belief. Without such freedoms, the values of societies would freeze. Much social progress has caused real anguish and offence to some people. To have stopped Charlie Hebdo by law would have been wrong. To stop them by bullets is beyond any mitigation.
But that doesn’t make the unfortunate deceased heroes, and President Hollande was wrong to characterise them as such. Being murdered does not make you a hero. And being offensive is not necessarily noble. People who are persistently and vociferously offensive are often neither noble nor well-motivated. Much of Charlie Hebdo‘s taunting of Muslims was really unpleasant. That they also had Christian and other targets did not make this any better. It is not Private Eye – it is a magazine with a much nastier edge. I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants. But once the shock dies off, I do hope a more realistic assessment of whether Charlie Hebdo was entirely admirable or not may be possible. This in no way excuses the dreadful murders.
The ability to say things that offend is an important attribute of a free society. Richard Dawkins may offend believers. Peter Tatchell may offend homophobes. Pussy Riot offended Putin and the Orthodox Church. This must not be stopped.
But that must cut both ways. Abu Qatada broke no British laws in his lengthy stay in the UK, but was demonised for things he said (or even things newspapers invented he had said). Most of the French who are today in solidarity for freedom of expression, are against people being able to express themselves freely in what they wear. The security industry who are all over TV today want to respond to this attack on freedom of expression by more controls on the internet!
I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn, and so we should. But the amount of nuanced thought in the mainstream media is almost non-existent. What will now happen is that conservative commentators will rip individual phrases from this article and tweet them to show I support terrorism. The lack of nuanced thought is a reflection of a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism which has poisoned public life in modern western society.
“Muslims have a duty to obey their just leaders”
Where exactly in either Quran or Hadith does it say? Muslims MUST obey words of God passed to them via the last prophet. Institute of leadership has been introduced since the era of Caliphs to support their power and ensure subordination. Muslims are free from birth and made obeyant by their masters.
Puzzled
“simple arithmetic”
Would have been if we were talking about logs or bricks but sadly we were not. So for me not that simple arithmetic then.
TonyF12
“One way to minimise terrorism in our own countries in the longer term is to avoid meddling in other people’s business uninvited, and stirring up so much hatred.”
So keeping our eyes shut when Taliban beheads women and children (for various reasons) or deny them simple education and keep them like cattle? Or when karimov or him alike butcher hundreds or thousands of people?
Uzbek
OK but not so simple for the Palestinians, that fake 6m arithmetic is causing them a lot of grief.
BTW-By conveniently sidestepping the simple arithmetical truth you are obviously a dershowitzian 2+2=22 type! Even habba will be jealous of such an ability to maradona away from truth.
TonyF12
“What Paris saw yesterday and sees today is not even 1pc of what the Middle East and Ukraine have to put up with every day. Can we at least acknowledge that and reintensify our intentions to eradicate it, starting with our own foreign policy agendas?”
One (just like average BNP supporter) could look at it this way and say that events in Paris would not have happened if France did not accept millions of migrants and refugees over the last 50 years. See. This can be interpreted different ways and everyone can base their arguments on the grounds most comfortable to their views.
I for instance see no foreign policy links with what has happened in Paris yesterday. It was not retribution for any military campaign. It was awful reaction to what civilised people would have considered a joke.
Puzzled
So are you suggesting that if only 1 million were murdered by Nazis, Jews had no right for their own state? And here of course simple arithmetic is very convenient indeed.
Habbaceous border cat-do
It would be good to see some evidence of the obvious false flag in Paris before condemning Hollande for the crime. He has the means, a moped. He has the motive, victim of a woman’s scorn. But I’m not sure he has the commando skills needed ( I think he may be cross-eyed. )
Craig; “I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants”
Are you sure ? How comes then, you deleted two very long threads with well over one thousand comments, all because somebody claimed that somebody else was being a “Holocaust Denier” ?
Funny also that you being such a keen advocate of Free Speech, that you couldn’t even be bothered to check for yourself, and just assumed the accusation was valid !
When the depth (how deep we dont know)of Operation Gladio was uncovered they were found to be responsible for hundreds of deaths and tens of major terror attacks against European citizens.The aim was to scare us away from the evils of Communism.
We are now living in times where the agenda seems to have changed to Islam but the perpetrators are probably the same.NATO.
NATO never shouted Mission Accomplished or said they would cease operations therefore the secret armies and cells are still in place for sure.
They desperately need a boogy man and Islam is perfect.In our midst and all over but never to be confused with good Islam who coincidentally are also all over.
Shouting Alluha Akhbar does not make someone a terrorist even if the French is perfect and as no accent.Terrorists benefit from the best schools and military training that money can provide.
If these guys are caught alive then I might once again begin to believe in terrorists.But until then it all smells rather like reruns of old movies.I know the plot and the ending.
Puzzled
Also, I have just noticed you called me Jew. Do you have any proof of that? or can you at least explain why do you think so? Why would I hide my Jewishness if I was in fact a Jew? I for instance do not think that being a Jew is a crime or a shame. Why would I hide this then?
And Habbabkuk I condemn all killing of innocents whoever commits the crimes.
Uzbek
Bah Jesus warned about you 2,000 years ago !
Jemand 8 Jan, 2015 – 8:15 am : “Many Islamist criminals are known to police and yet police work aimed at preventing foreseeable tragedies is being hampered by liberal extremists who cast Islamists as misunderstood victims of state terror. When police fail to act, the false-flaggers come out with their crackpot accusations that the police were in on the terrorist plots. “
Statistically, it is far more likely that we will die as a result of violence instigated by white Christian politicians than Muslims. Why do you spend so much time warning us about the lesser threat?
The 18-year-old Mourad reportedly turned himself in at a police station in Charleville Mézières, after seeing his name on the list of shooting suspects shared on social networks. He claimed he was in college at the time the massacre took place in the headquarters of the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo in central Paris, reported French iTele.
Two other suspects have been tracked down in the Picardy region of northern France, say sources cited by AFP. The men were traveling in a Renault Clio, they were reportedly armed and wearing hoods, Le Parisien reported.
The manager of a petrol station near Villers-Cotteret commune “recognized the two men suspected of having participated in the attack against Charlie Hebdo,” sources close to the manhunt told AFP.
One of the suspects still at large, Chérif Kouachi, was sentenced to three years in prison in 2008, reported Le Monde. He took part in a Paris-based group that recruited candidates to fight with jihadists in Iraq. He was also convicted on terror charges in 2010.
The ‘Direction centrale du renseignement intérieur’ have a symbiotic relationship with MI5; a section of ‘Direction centrale de la police judiciaire’ is also involved with Britain’s Special Branch.
The intelligence put forward by Britain means the Kouarchi brothers must, no matter what, be sent up the river.
http://rt.com/news/220787-france-mourning-hebdo-shooting/
So are you suggesting that if only 1 million were murdered by Nazis, Jews had no right for their own state?
Of course they had a credible, even compelling, argument in favour of having their own state. But no right whatever under any law but their own, and no right to anyone else’s land, either.
(Were there such a right, we could then start talking numbers.)
On France Info this morning they interviewed a former
Charlie Hebdo cartoonist who had been fired for penning
an (allgedly) anti-semitic cartoon.
It seems that some speech is freer than others.
The blogger Tarzie, O Rancid Sector Of The Extreme Left, takes your nuance and says:
I Do Not Mourn the Deaths of Racist, Imperialist Provocateurs
DomesticExtremist
According to this Gawker history of Hebdo a columnist got fired for writing about Sarkosky’s son.
Resident Dissident, 7:28 am:
This highly specific claim is not the one I made. However, I do remember that British Special Forces disguised as “islamic” extremists were unmasked in Iraq planting roadside bombs. Prior to that US government had specifically ordered torture in an attempt to generate false confessions that such extremists were operating in Iraq. So clearly, when no such extremists really exist, “our side” goes to the trouble of faking their existence.
My claim is more general, that “our side” funds, trains, arms and uses such extremists. These extremists then go beyond the specific missions that “our side” specifically commissions.
The most obvious example is the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, trained and armed by the US and directed against the forces of the USSR. The Mujahideen then transformated into al-Qaeda. More recently, a bunch of such extremists gathered in Benghazi, Lybia, and provided a convenient pretext to wage war upon and decimate Libya; there were many calls to “arm the rebels”, the arms to be supplied by Saudi Arabia – we now see the tragic results. Even more recently, a similar sequence of actions was initiated against Syria; vast amounts of US money have been channelled through one of the smaller Gulf Monarchies, I believe. This latest brainwave has blessed us with ISIS.
Resident Dissident, I would be hard-pressed to spare the time and energy to find links to back up the above, but I believe it all be well-documented; maybe other commenters will assist me. Do you dispute any of it?
You do write some very good stuff but it’s usually spoiled by the attitude you adopt towards people who don’t agree with you. Examples abound.
For sure, America’s and England’s war of terror is ridiculous and unjustified. And Rushdie is a vile man.
Homophobe? What’s that? Someone who fears their own kind? It’s a daft word. Many people dislike others for many reasons – that’s their choice and they shouldn’t be stigmatised. Most normal men aren’t comfortable with queers, or gays, or whatever the fashionable word is just now.
Your experience should tell you that if you seriously piss people off, they’ll react violently. Violence is sometimes justified, don’t you think? From what I’ve seen here, you support Muslim violence against Israel. Correct me if I’m wrong. I seem to recall that you urged it in one of your posts. Probably a crime.
In fact, Israel is a state which is race-blind. They will welcome Somalis, Russians, Tunisians, Brits, ……, absolutely anyone who is Jewish – so you might want to think about that.
Anyone who mocks Muslims in public is an idiot looking for trouble. Likewise, any person who mocks Ian Paisley in certain parts of Belfast is an idiot looking for a hiding. Do such people deserve violent treatment? Well, the answer shouldn’t be ‘no’ without thought. If you offend people with words, are they not ever entitled to react with violence?
If I met you in a bar and you called me a pleb cunt, I’d punch you. What’s wrong with that?
If you told a man that you were planning to burn his wife and children then he’d probably be justified in acting. Words cause actions – that’s what they are for.
By the way, I don’t think Scotland or Berwick will be good for you. Northerners don’t easily accept people like you. Just a hint. Take it or leave it. Margate might be a better option – and if you really, really, desperately want to be an MP then you could just join UKIP.
Neil Barker, 1:50 pm:
You are wrong. Craig supported Palestinian fighters in Gaza against Israeli forces invading Gaza and attacking Palestinians.
Craig has repeatedly condemned violence by Palestinians against Israeli civilians.
Neil Barker 8 Jan, 2015 – 1:50 pm : “In fact, Israel is a state which is race-blind. They will welcome Somalis, Russians, Tunisians, Brits, ……, absolutely anyone who is Jewish – so you might want to think about that.”
http://www.irinnews.org/report/94819/israel-the-tribulations-of-being-an-ethiopian-jew
Mary, 8:46 am: I watched the video you linked to. A number of points I ask you to consider:
1) The video repeatedly claims “false flag” in the title captions, yet the rolling captions are implying the event was staged or faked and thus not an attack of any kind, false flag or otherwise.
2) The video shows (or fakes) the shooting of one man, but reports indicate twelve deaths.
3) The section you quoted says that the man was shot directly in the head, and that there should therefore be a lot of blood, similar to the mess from shooting a watermelon. However, the video shows that the gun barrel was pointing short of the man’s head. A puff of dust from the ground suggests that the round probably ricocheted off the pavement into the man’s neck.
Mary, in all I find the suggestions of the captions added to this video to be highly deceptive.
Good to hear from you Suhayl, I hope you have not just come for a quick cup of tea. tried to contact you last year before I came for a quick visit, but failed to get in touch.
Your points are well made although they fail to describe the whole picture. Waziristan, north and south, have been under drone attack for more that two years, a massive army operation along the border with Afghanistan raised many villages to the ground, many innocent civilians have died, no doubt some of them families of known terrorists, but nevertheless innocent.
Add to that ISI’s incestuous relationship with all things terrorism, their use of terrorists to do their dirty work, and you have chaos as described by you.
The cool calm and serene mood these attackers were in leds me to believe they’d done it before, indeed, when captured, we should check whether our very own special forces trained these chaps.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/war-against-isis-british-troops-likely-to-train-syrian-rebels-nearly-three-years-after-similar-plan-failed-9771432.html
The problem is revenge and some people are so poorly educated that a little wind up is enough to get them to commit an atrocity.
One must condemn the killing of innocent victims and I will do so when this has all been investigated, these quick fix media comments, all ready and chiming in at the right time, from here, there and everywhere are suspiciously common these days, as if expected.
Charlie hebdo was as vile as the french comedienne Diodonne, trying to provoke and up the anti and the extraordinary sales figure CH gained after reprinting their previous slurs on Islam seems to have been a lifeline for this magazine. Their mistake was to introduce the prophet Mohammed into the equation, although radical in his times, today he’s the prophet for all Muslims, not just the moderate ones. But their bad habits does not mean free speech should be curtailed.
I call Baghdadi evil and detestable, and I could not stop him killing me if he so wished. This killing, bloodless as some say I shall keep my mettle and wait to hear what is proposed to us as’ the facts’, as much as I would still like to hear about MH17.
@Bevin, thanks for that succinct piece about NATO gone awol, could not agree more, many radical actions have been provoking radical actions, the self perpetuating mechanism of the war on terrorism the west has adopted for our love of oil and profits.
Finally, thanks for writing this, Craig, when we should be talking Berwick strategy on the previous thread, it had to be said and your comparisons are fitting.
An atrocity – it does go without saying.
But remember. Twelve dead equals two or three days’ worth of road fatalities in the UK. Half of those will be pedestrians and cyclists, not involved in using powered vehicles. Half will be elderly or children. Victims.
How much do you value your freedom to use powered vehicles, and all the goods and services delivered by them? Exactly which freedoms do you think should be curtailed?
Yes well said Nevermind – Craig took the time to write this piece which was indeed subtle and well, nuanced.
Clark at 3.15 p.m. I sincerely hope that the person on the ground is an actor. But for me the video all seems too well created, following the gunmen and actors to probably the only place the guy could lie down without being out of camera shot. The puff on the pavement I would suggest is in front of the man’s head. Since bullets ricochet forwards I cannot see how a bullet, if it was a bullet, could hit the ground in front of a man’s head and then hit his head. I would also contend that the angle of the gun is wrong being above and beyond the actor’s head. I am convinced that You Tube have taken the video down because they do not want people drawing the same conclusions as me. But I would be interested in other people’s thoughts.
Israel is a state which is race-blind. They will welcome Somalis, Russians, Tunisians, Brits, ……, absolutely anyone who is Jewish…
And no-one else. I take it we can assume the usual intentional confusion between Judaism the religion, Judaic the race (some allege) and Jewish the wonderful culture – but if you don’t wear a kippah, friend, you’re nobody. And if you’re Ethiopian and do wear a kippah, as pointed out above.
Clark, I agree with what you say about the overstatement of it being a false-flag event. The creator has tried to convince viewers that it is a faked event from the start. At the end there is the message that he will let viewers draw their own conclusions. But I’ve tried to ignore that. The only people I have seen killed on film are people in the Donbass region of Ukraine. That is a really messy sight. But I concede that the weapons are much heavier. So I just don’t know whether there would be no blood.