There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.
It is impossible to stop evil from happening. Simple low tech attacks by individuals, a kind of DIY terrorism, cannot always be pre-empted. If you try to do so universally, you will end up even further down the line we have gone down in the UK, where people are continually arrested and harassed who have no connection to terrorism at all, often for bragging on websites. These non-existent foiled terrorist plots are a risible feature of British politics nowadays. Every now and then one hits the headlines, like the arrests just before Remembrance Day. Their defining characteristic is that none of those arrested have any means of terrorism – 99% of those arrested for terrorism in the UK in the last decade – possessed no weapon and no viable explosive device.
In fact the only terrorist in the last year convicted in the UK, who possessed an actual bomb – a very viable explosive device indeed, was not charged with terrorism. He was a fascist named Ryan McGee who had a swastika on his wall and hated Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims with no weapons are locked up for terrorism. A fanatical anti-Muslim with a bomb is by definition not a terrorist.
I am assuming that the narrative that Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamists is correct, though that remains to be proved. For argument, let us assume the official narrative is true and the killings were by Muslims outraged at the magazine’s depictions of the Prophet Mohammed.
It is essential to free speech that it includes the freedom to offend. That must include the freedom to offend religious belief. Without such freedoms, the values of societies would freeze. Much social progress has caused real anguish and offence to some people. To have stopped Charlie Hebdo by law would have been wrong. To stop them by bullets is beyond any mitigation.
But that doesn’t make the unfortunate deceased heroes, and President Hollande was wrong to characterise them as such. Being murdered does not make you a hero. And being offensive is not necessarily noble. People who are persistently and vociferously offensive are often neither noble nor well-motivated. Much of Charlie Hebdo‘s taunting of Muslims was really unpleasant. That they also had Christian and other targets did not make this any better. It is not Private Eye – it is a magazine with a much nastier edge. I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants. But once the shock dies off, I do hope a more realistic assessment of whether Charlie Hebdo was entirely admirable or not may be possible. This in no way excuses the dreadful murders.
The ability to say things that offend is an important attribute of a free society. Richard Dawkins may offend believers. Peter Tatchell may offend homophobes. Pussy Riot offended Putin and the Orthodox Church. This must not be stopped.
But that must cut both ways. Abu Qatada broke no British laws in his lengthy stay in the UK, but was demonised for things he said (or even things newspapers invented he had said). Most of the French who are today in solidarity for freedom of expression, are against people being able to express themselves freely in what they wear. The security industry who are all over TV today want to respond to this attack on freedom of expression by more controls on the internet!
I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn, and so we should. But the amount of nuanced thought in the mainstream media is almost non-existent. What will now happen is that conservative commentators will rip individual phrases from this article and tweet them to show I support terrorism. The lack of nuanced thought is a reflection of a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism which has poisoned public life in modern western society.
“@ RepublicofScotland Actually the AK takes a 5.56 round, not a 7.62. With a headshot with that type of round I would not expect to see any instant blood. Believe me, I know what I am talking about when it comes to this stuff..”
_____________________________
Frazer.
Erm! I’m not doubting that you know, “Your Stuff” but according to Wiki the AK47 assault rifle takes a 7.62mm cartridge.
Check it out for yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47
Mary, thanks for your response.
Habbabkuk, see? If one is consistently polite and fair, Mary responds.
@Habby
But you know why certain people on here do so label, surely….?
But you know why certain people on here do label insane, all talk of false flag conspiracies, surely …?
“In which way does increased security at entry points to the UK constitute a “restriction of freedoms?”
The same way stop and search does, or the other 1000 ways the state has of taking control over our existence. Almost Always under the threat of violence I may add.
REPOST
There has been a lot of talk on here about the possible “false flag” nature of the Charly Hebdo slayings.
They are, I think, exemplified by John Goss’s “I don’t know the facts”.
So here is a question for commenters:
what proof would the French authorities have to present in order to convince you that the slayings were carried out by Islamic terrorists and were not, therefore, a “false flag” operation?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, you “false flag enthusiasts” are keeping rather quiet, eh? Was the question too difficult for you?
With regard to the talk here of a false flag operation, there’s very convincing evidence that the Boston bombing was such (and I say that as someone who’s not generally into conspiracy theories), and the Paris murders do seem to be turning into a re-run of the Boston bombing.
It’s also worth remembering that the security services have become totally corrupt.
We now live in a mass surveillance state, and in such a state the integrity of everything is open to question.
Clark
“Mary, thanks for your response.
Habbabkuk, see? If one is consistently polite and fair, Mary responds.”
________________
Well, what she wrote at 17h11 was a response, I suppose, but hardly a reasoned answer to the points you made.
There’s been an increase in violence in Yemen over the past month or so:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=yemen
and a large bomb attack on a police academy went off in Sanaa, the Yemeni capital, killing 37, around the same time as the Paris shootings.
These Paris shooters have identified themselves as belonging to an Al Quaeda group operating out of Yemen:
“Terrorists shouted they were from al-Qaeda in the Yemen before Charlie Hebdo attack”
Thanks guys.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11330636/Terrorists-shouted-they-were-from-al-Qaeda-in-the-Yemen-before-Charlie-Hebdo-attack.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900941/Who-Charlie-Hebdo-gunmen-Islamic-fanatics-claimed-Al-Qaeda-Yemen-shooting-12-dead.html
Why is Yemen important:
One of the world’s major oil chokepoints borders Yemen – Bab el-Mandab
“Closing the Bab el-Mandeb Strait could keep tankers in the Persian Gulf from reaching the Suez Canal and the SUMED Pipeline, diverting them around the southern tip of Africa.”
http://www.eia.gov/countries/regions-topics.cfm?fips=wotc&trk=p3
Anyone remember Aden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aden_Emergency
“Yemen is a major global oil transit chokepoint
According to news reports, the attacks on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo were carried out by a Yemeni offshoot of al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP).
AQAP and Yemen figure large in the geopolitical schemes now underway throughout the Arabian Sea region.”
http://tomfernandez28.com/2015/01/07/charlie-hebdo-attackers-were-al-qaeda-from-yemen-islam-religion-of-peace/
@Habba what proof would the French authorities have to present in order to convince you that the slayings were carried out by Islamic terrorists and were not, therefore, a “false flag” operation?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, you “false flag enthusiasts” are keeping rather quiet, eh? Was the question too difficult for you?
It seems unusual to demand the prosecution lay out the argument for the defense.
One thing that I would like to see, though, if I were investigating the crime, is some blood. Let’s see the crime scene pictures showing the blood spattered pavement where the poor fellow is supposed to have had his brains blown out. One would, of course, need proper authentication of the pictures, date stamps, etc. It would also be useful to have the autopsy reports and some information about the coroner or whoever undertook the examination (you know there are people in every field who tend to collaborate with the authorities more closely that perhaps they should.)
That’d be a start.
Good question on Medialens;
“Seems that the attackers got into the Charlie Hebdo office by forcing one Corinne Rey, aka Coco, a cartoonist at the magazine, to enter the security code.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/young-mother-let-terrorists-into-charlie-hebdo-building-after-threat-against-daughter-190057740.html#xIy5aJs
One has to assume that this is the same Coco who is the author of the cartoon Mark D linked to in a previous thread.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6yjZGHCMAAHnH0.jpg
It has been assumed that these were targeted killings of paticular individuals. Question is, given the egregiously insulting nature of Coco’s cartoon, why was she not also shot. Did they not know who she was, did they know who she was and deliberately avoid targeting her for whatever reason, or was their failure to shoot an oversight?”
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1420739113.html
Homeneara*
““In which way does increased security at entry points to the UK constitute a “restriction of freedoms?”
The same way stop and search does, or the other 1000 ways the state has of taking control over our existence. Almost Always under the threat of violence I may add.”
___________________
If your “the same way” is correct, then you are presumably against any border checks whether enhanced or not?
That is the logic of what you write: any border checks are a restriction of freedom.
Relations with Muslims in France have been deteriorating since ex French President Nicolas Sarkozy, decided to ban the burqa.
France has in my opinion been to politically correct, towards Islam in recent years, which has lead to an increase in immigration .
France by far has the largest Muslim population in Europe, with roughly 10% (Circa 2013)of the populus, being of a Muslim persuasion.
A class of cultures is inevitable in France in my opinion, and indeed in several other European countries such as Germany, of which certain cities have already staged mass demos in recent days.
It was Colonel Gaddafi, who said, “We will not have to fight the Europeans for much longer, for in 50 years we will, have flooded their countries with our brothers and sisters, to such a degree, they will become the minority.”
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4120/islamization-france
Canspeccy
“@Habba what proof would the French authorities have to present in order to convince you that the slayings were carried out by Islamic terrorists and were not, therefore, a “false flag” operation?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well, you “false flag enthusiasts” are keeping rather quiet, eh? Was the question too difficult for you?
It seems unusual to demand the prosecution lay out the argument for the defense.”
__________________
I fear you have that the wrong way round:
1/. From everything we have heard so far (including from witnesses)the events at Charlie Hebdo would appear to be a terrorist attack by Islamists.
2/. Some people on here immediately cast doubt on that and started talking about false flags – without any evidence.
3/ I am a kind person, especially with people who need help, whether intellectual or otherwise.
4/. Consequently, I am trying to make it easier for those commenters and more difficult for the authorities : rather than asking them to prove that was a false flag, I am asking them which proof the authorities should furnish on order to convince them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There have of course been no responses except for yours, which you characterise as a “for a start”.
Having started, would you like to continue?
Here’s the Saker’s perspective on Liberal crocodile tears over latest martyrs for free speech:
“So 12 deliberately “soul spitting blasphemers” were murdered and all of France is in deep mourning. The media worldwide does such a good job presenting it all as a planetary disaster that many thousands people worldwide say “I am Charlie”, sob, light candles and take a “courageous” stance for freedom of speech.”
“That is the logic of what you write: any border checks are a restriction of freedom”
Yes, and it seems an obvious fact. That I simply explained further.
“If your “the same way” is correct, then you are presumably against any border checks whether enhanced or not?”
This guess work seems un-nice.
“France has in my opinion been to politically correct, towards Islam in recent years, which has lead to an increase in immigration .”
France had a bit of a habit of colonising muslim countries. Not much point in them complaining that they colonise them back.
Or as Salman Rushdie put it, “The Empire strikes back”
But anyway. That’s not the important story.
The important story is the War on Islam, and why.
Advocates of the “faked shooting” theory, your arguments make little sense, and highlighting details which seem odd does not make up for this. You claim that the video is faked, but complain about the lack of blood. If some organisation wanted to fake such an event, they would have made it convincing. You can’t have it both ways.
Likewise, this can’t be blow-back from the “West’s” wars in the Middle East, and faked, and false flag.
Everyone (including the supporters of the “Islamic Terrorism” theory) should take a few deep breaths and wait until more actual evidence becomes available. But what evidence we have seems to indicate blow-back by trained and (obviously) well armed extremists. While you’re waiting, please ponder upon logical consistency.
Major questions have been raised over Britain’s ability to catch jihadist terrorist suspects returning to the country, after figures showed that thousands of illegal immigrants are disappearing through the UK’s porous borders every year.
The Home Office data, obtained by The Telegraph, show a dramatic increase in the proportion of immigrants who vanish after being stopped at border checks for carrying false passports or incorrect visas.
Seaports handling coach-loads of visitors, and border checks on the Eurostar route at Lille in France, are believed to have been particularly vulnerable to illegal immigrants in recent years.
Figures released by the Government under Freedom of Information laws showed that 3,527 immigrants absconded after failing border checks last year. Only 846 were found, meaning 76 per cent – about 2,700 – remained at large.
………………..
I for one, am all for strengthening, and increasing the UK’s Border Agency, indeed if the UK wasn’t an island, far more illegal immigrants would now be in the UK.
Who knows what past crimes or criminal records these illegals, could posses, or even which country they’re from, as they tend to rip up their passports, making it very difficult for the Home office to deport them back to their country of origin.
Since I got the italics all wrong, let me repeat that last comment:
@ Habby
I fear you have that the wrong way round:
1/. From everything we have heard so far (including from witnesses)the events at Charlie Hebdo would appear to be a terrorist attack by Islamists.
That’s correct. But it would have to have that appearance to be an effective false flag, wouldn’t it.
Not that I’m saying it was a false flag. What I would say though is that since the event has such great political significance, it would be foolish, after 9/11 and sundry other remarkable violent occurrences with massive political implications, not to consider whether it may have been a false flag event.
2/. Some people on here immediately cast doubt on that and started talking about false flags – without any evidence.
Without reviewing every single comment, one can say that Tony_Opmoc provided evidence in the form a a U-Tube videa now removed but available here. Some relevant questions have been raised based on this video, lake of gun recoil, lack of victim reaction to an apparent head shot, lack of blood and brains, etc.
3/ I am a kind person, especially with people who need help, whether intellectual or otherwise.
4/. Consequently, I am trying to make it easier for those commenters and more difficult for the authorities : rather than asking them to prove that was a false flag, I am asking them which proof the authorities should furnish on order to convince them.
There have of course been no responses except for yours, which you characterise as a “for a start”.
Having started, would you like to continue?
The above comments are as far as I would like to continue for now. All I would assert definitely at this point is that we should remain open-minded until the evidence or lack thereof, including perhaps the testimony of the the last water-boarded witness. is known.
If a moderator would remove my comment at 6.43 pm, that would be appreciated.
[craigmurray.org.uk – done. Two other comments of yours and one other were misidentified as spam by the software – all now displayed]
Re: False flag versus murderous Muslim extremism
For those who may not have followed my link above to the Saker’s commentary on the Paris shootings, here’s his peroration:
So what is going on here? I will tell you what – the EU 1%ers are now capitalizing on these murders to crack down on their own population. Sarkozy already met Hollande and they both agreed that new levels of firmness and vigilance need to be implemented. Does that not reek of a French 9/11?
So no, I am most definitely NOT Charlie this morning and I am disgusted beyond words with the obscene display of doubleplusgoodthinking “solidarity” for a group of “caviar-lefties” who made their money spitting in the souls of billions of people and then dared them to do something about it. And I am under no illusion whatsoever about the fact that cui bono clearly indicates that the French regime either organized it all, or let it happen or, at the very least, makes maximal political use of it all.
But most of all, I am disgusted with all those who play along and studiously avoid asking the right questions about all this. I guess they really are “Charlies” all of them.
I am not.
Uznek in the UK
Not sure where your reading comes from. My point is precisely that both Charlie Hebdo and Pussy Riot should be permitted to do what they do. Whether that is admirable or not opens up issues of moral relativism which are too seldom addressed.
Habbaceous border cat-do
“any border checks are a restriction of freedom.”
Sorry to question your traditional freedoms. I’m not going to stay up all night just to pepper your backside with .22 air rifle pellets. Just do what you’ve got to do. Live and let live. Tolerance. Neighbourly love. Fuck up the Middle-East under our noses. One day we’ll clean up the mess you continue to do.
Macky
I don’t see that as a contradiction. I do not think opinions should be banned. People who want to have holocaust denial websites should be permitted to do so. But I don’t have to have them on my personal blog. Just as I think Charlie Hebdo should be allowed to do what they do, but I would not want much of their material on my blog. As for Pussy Riot I find them extremely decorative and think there should be more of them everywhere.
“The important story is the War on Islam, and why.”
________________________________
Herbie.
A good question with a mutli-faceted answer required, the why of course means many different things to many different people.
Take European countries for instance, I suppose many EU citizens may feel their way of life is threatened, others see Islam as a religion of non-tolerance, others again may feel, that in particular Muslim immigrants are taking their jobs (even if they are low paid jobs).
Other Europeans may feel that, Islam isn’t an inclusive religion, some may feel that they’re frightened of Muslims (Due to media reports) even if it is over blown.
As for the War on Islam in the Middle East, it appears to be an orchestrated attempt by the west led by the chief culprit, the USA, to put in place puppet governments, and of those countries who show descent, they shall remain in constant turmoil, through civil war, in which one side will be backed by the west.
After killing twelve people, the shooter performed the civic duty of picking up a stray shoe that fell off the car onto the road. WTF, they are very disciplined these mossad marksmen, its a tradition that stretches way back to the grassy knoll !! The two Algerians will be found dead, just as the scooter shooters Algerian double. Now if somebody analyses the DNA of the 18 year old “accomplice” who was NOWHERE NEAR the shooting, it might just be that of a yemeni sephardi ?
that we Train terrorists is Fact
that we train them on u.k Soil is also fact, then they are sent back to help in our illegal acts of Terrorism in Libya, Syria, Ect.
From a piece in G.R. By Joachim Hagopian
Long ago even prior to 9/11 the neocon game plan still being acted out today was to wreak havoc in the Middle East and North Africa, taking down one regime after the next, plundering oil rich lands for Exxon, Shell and BP, carving up and devising chessboard pipelines to Europe while isolating and cutting off Russia and Iran oil and gas routes, waging the blood for oil conquest for global hegemony at the murderous expense of the darker skinned human population that happens to be Moslem.
Using terrorist mercenaries comes in handy to fight US Empire’s proxy wars where bulk deployment of more American troop invasions from a war-weary nation would not be tolerated. So 1400 US military “advisors” to coordinate the fake war against ISIL in Iraq also becomes the flimsy excuse to go after Syria after all. Taking down Assad in Syria is still the flimsy excuse to then go after Iran, the final Middle East conquest. Of course taking down Iran remains the ever so worn out excuse to also go after cold war enemy Russia [again]. This deceptive strategy and bottom line agenda masquerades as the actual US presence throughout the Middle East. Only by now the world is onto US Empire aggression. The humanitarian rhetoric of lies will no longer work as that game hand’s been played too many times before. No one will be fooled any more, not even the Americans.
Notice how every time the US government is about to be fully exposed in another boldface lie, this one being that ISIL is our sworn enemy, another wag the dog “terrorist” incident suddenly comes along to divert world attention. This time it was three heavily armed and trained gunmen in Paris attacking the office of the French satire magazine Charlie Hebdo, tragically killing twelve people. Of course like the US, France is notorious for arming and funding al Qaeda terrorists. The French foreign minister just accompanied McCain to Syria in their meeting with the ISIL “enemy” there. Questions of speculation over the government’s potential involvement in another false flag are being raised.
Not only does the attack temporarily take the heat off another sinister US foible being unraveled, it also gives strength to the war on terror, pumping up the rationale for creating yet more anti-terror laws, more totalitarian oppression in the name of national security and more anti-Moslem hatred around the globe. Though today’s attackers were French citizens, the anti-immigration and anti-Islam sentiment raging throughout the Western nations seems ready to boil over. All this of course conflict and violence is just what the oligarchs have ordered, using their age old winning formula of divide and conquer, always to blind people into hating and blaming other groups as scapegoats. The latest current events sweeping the headlines are part of the banking cabal’s design to create war, destabilize and destroy nations and economies and impoverish, kill and reduce the global population.
Mary.
Cheers for that TTIP link
Good piece, Craig. I’m inclined to think this was a false-flag on some level but will keep an open mind for now.
It is particularly strange that these supposed Al Qaeda terrorists took so much effort to conceal themselves for the attacks and then left their ID in the car. It suggests to me the people on the run aren’t the same people pictured outside the Charlie Hebdo office but decoys of some kind while the real murderers fled the country.
Why would these shooters be so keen to identify themselves as a specific Yemeni group?
Is it only Yemeni muslims who are offended by anti-muslim cartoons?
How did the police so quickly identify those believed responsible?
Why are all these muslim terrorists always hard-drinking, whoring, coke-sniffing western types who get remarkably upset when their “religion” is criticised.
Why have they always been known to the spooks for eons?
Why are they always conveniently dropping identifying documents about the place and telling us who they are?
And anyway, isn’t this easily offended muslim thing becoming a bit of a cliche?
Why are people so stupid as to fall for precisely the same trick every time?
We create instability in muslim regions because it enables us to intervene and control oil supplies. An addditional benefit is that it enables us to destabilise regions bordering Russia and China.
Simple and straightforward.
Missed this part out Can Speccy.
‘Are some victims more equal then others?
So 12 deliberately “soul spitting blasphemers” were murdered and all of France is in deep mourning. The media worldwide does such a good job presenting it all as a planetary disaster that many thousands people worldwide say “I am Charlie”, sob, light candles and take a “courageous” stance for freedom of speech.
Crocodile tears if you ask me.
The Empire’s freedom fighter
The fact is that the AngloZionists have carefully and lovingly nurtured, organized, armed, financed, trained, equipped and even directed the Takfiri crazies for decades. From the war in Afghanistan to Syria today these murderous psychopaths have been the foot-soldiers of the AngloZionist Empire for decades. But, apparently, nobody cares about their victims in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Chechnia, in Kosovo, in Libya, in Kurdistan, in Iraq or elsewhere. There these liver-eating murderers are “freedom fighters” who get full support. Including from the very same media which today is in mourning over Charlie Hebdo. Apparently, in the western ethos some victims are more equal then others.
And when is the last time somebody in Europe shed a single tear over the daily murders of innocent people in the Donbass whose murder is paid for and directly directed by the western regimes?’
http://www.vineyardsaker.net/i-am-not-charlie/
This is the new website link. There are 70 comments on the article.