Forget Faslane 185

With this country’s massive needs in housing and renewable energy, it is typical that the only public spending announcement the Tories wish to make is on more potential for death and destruction at Faslane. The politics of the ludicrous claims on employment creation are risibly transparent. Don’t vote SNP! Don’t Vote Corbyn! This is not an industrial or a services economy, its the WMD economy.

I was frustrated during the referendum campaign by the mealy-mouthed response to the unionists constant carping on about job losses at Faslane. Chucking out Trident will cause job losses. Good. Doing evil should not be sustained as a job creation scheme.

It is like arguing to keep the Spanish Inquisition going because of the workers it employs. Woodcutters gather the material for the burning alive of heretics. Skilled workers lay the faggots and construct the bonfires. Blacksmiths forge fetters and implements of torture. Then the torturers themselves have good steady jobs, and what of the clerks who write down the confessions? Ending the Spanish Inquisition would cause economic disruption.

I think that pushes the parallel far enough, but it is a sad comment on our moral relativism that anyone is allowed to talk of employment at Faslane as a bonus without being roundly ridiculed and socially shamed. As usual Osborne’s numbers are a trick of mostly totaling existing plans over a lengthy period. But even if this was genuine investment, he should be told where to stuff it. Scotland must not be a WMD based economy.

185 thoughts on “Forget Faslane

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  • Alcyone

    John Spencer-Davis
    1 Sep, 2015 – 7:54 am

    01/09/2015 2:08am

    Is it really that important? Do you not have better things to do than concern yourself with how I choose to sign myself off?


    John, that is not a very polite (or rational) way to start the day, is it? After all, you are engaged in the same conversation presently, aren’t you? While presumably you would have us believe that you have superior things to attend to?

    Do you not realise that you stick out like a sore thumb by signing off your name in every little comment, when your identity is already very clear at the outset?

    But the more important point is about your practice of your use of the valediction; sometimes offering ‘Kind regards’ and at other times withholding it. Should we assume that when you are withholding your KR, that you are withholding respect for the addressee?

    As Glenn says (and I know him from here to be a nice enough guy), “is it simply to give you the option to sign off with or without the “Kind regards”, thus indicating how favoured your correspondent should consider himself?”.

    Frankly, I just want to understand whether you consider yourself in some way of being superior. It raises all sorts of questions. Questions of your psychology behind your choices. And since you are a psychotherapist, as I understand it, these questions become all the more important to someone like me, as a student of ‘life’. It relates fundamentally to important aspects like ‘who am I?, or ‘who are you?’, and at a profound level relate to the EGO — What is the ego; am I aware of it; does it have a function; what is its relationship with empathy and compassion? Can I set it aside? Can I observe it; be aware of it…constantly?

    There, you have it, hopefully some important enough and elemental questions.

    Further, what about the relationship of the ego with patriotism and nationalism and all that stuff? Are nuclear weapons a manifestation of the egos’ need for ‘my’ psychological security?

    I sincerely hope you will engage with me in understanding these issues, but for reasons of the ego, I doubt you will. If you are willing to withdraw your impetuous, ill-considered and utterly insensitive statement at the top of the page, addressed to Craig viz asking him to “Imagine being one of the people put out of work.”, I am willing to apologise for any ‘abuse’ directed to you in my earlier comments.


  • Resident Dissident

    “It is telling that Nat’s collaborator on the black taxi app is an ‘Israeli former cyber security office’.”

    Just like it is telling that you ignore Oleg Deripaska whose wealth makes that of Nat Rothschild pale into near insignificance and who has rather closer connections with the Putin regime. Mandelson is also a non executive director of Sistema – a Russian company quoted on the London Stock Exchange (it owns Mr Goss’s favourite toy stop Detsky Mir) whose chairman Vadimir Evtushenkov is worth even more than Deripaska and has in the past been close to Putin and has now kissed and made up after a little contretemps

    But as usual Mary is more interested in the Rothschilds/Jewish links.

  • fred

    “Imagine being one of the people put out of work.”

    Sounds like good advice to me.

    Glasgow has some of the most deprived areas in Britain, not capitalist slums built by Victorian mill owners socialist slums built by 1960s town planners. What would someone who grew up there make of an ex-ambassador from Norfolk saying what Craig said?

  • Resident Dissident

    At least in the old Bennite days we got talk about swords into ploughshares and the Vickers shop stewards project – all we seem to get nowadays is the usual accusations and discussions about signatures at the end of posts. Do people understand that if they want to propose an alternative then the imperative is on them to come up with workable alternatives – the chanting of nihilistic mantras is not sufficient.

  • Mark Golding

    Thnks Mary -Lockheed Martin predictably have a piece of the AWE pie.

    I am interested in passenger privacy using Maaxi, the app lets you book individual seats on regular black cabs, which means you can share your journey with up to five people(strangers) in order to cut down your fare.

    The essential Maaxi database has names, addresses, cc details, journey details i.e. pickup points/destinations/time and some black cabs have cameras – altogether a valuable London wavelength and resource to bolt into Hatzav, Urim and other Unit 8200 ‘appliance’ operations.

  • Pan


    N.B. It is not my intention to attack or defend anyone here in this comment.

    I am simply a student of logic.

    1 Sep, 2015 – 9:55 am

    “Do you not realise that you stick out like a sore thumb by signing off your name in every little comment”

    “I just want to understand whether you consider yourself in some way of being superior”

    —OMG, next we will have someone accusing commenters who use personalised avatars of somehow being elitist. (I mean, don’t personalised avatars “stick out like a sore thumb” even more than a ‘signature’?)

    “Should we assume that when you are withholding your KR, that you are withholding respect for the addressee?”

    —Should we assume that when you withold the valediction “Sincerely,” you are being insincere?

    “is it simply to give you the option to sign off with or without the “Kind regards”

    —Apparently, you have already decided that that option is independent of the presence of a ‘signature’.

  • Salford Lad

    @JDman 6.55am
    The miners and other unions were heavily criticized in the 70’s .and 80’s for going on strike. The reasons for the strikes were for fair compensation for their labour and suspicions that the Tories had plans to decimate the mining industry.( later proved true) .
    The part of the narrative that is untold is the black hands of the banking industry in this debacle. A little financial history is required to shine a light on this story, bear with me.
    In 1971 Nixon withdrew the USA from the Gold standard, set up under the Bretton Woods agreement of 1946. Reason being the costs of the Vietnam war and the depletion of Fort Knox gold reserves due to imbalance of trade with Europe.
    This action removed the restrictions on banks to create credit. The floodgates were opened for easy loans and mortgages.
    The result was inflation in the region of 18% .
    This obviously eroded the purchasing power of the working mans pay packet.
    Labour unrest followed, as workers agitated for pay rises to counter this loss and the resultant rise in prices thru’out the economy.
    Today the Financial crisis we are undergoing, is directly related to the uncontrolled creation of credit by the banking industry.
    Until this ability to create credit and issue it as debt by private banks is restored to our Govt, we will continue this crisis.
    Money issued as debt is a weapon of extortion and plunder, as we witness today in Greece.

  • Mary

    Good links to Deripaska and Mandelson. Thanks RD although I know you are only using them to hammer Putin, again.

    Did you see him working out? Impressive. I can’t see Gideon or Dave being able to do the same.

  • Mary

    Good lateral thinking Mark to see through that.

    btw Gabi Campo does not sound like an Israeli name. Maybe he’s the Israeli operative who picked up Mordecai. Poor man. In prison en plein air like the Palestinians.

    ‘The Israeli government decided to capture Vanunu, but determined to avoid harming its good relationship with Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, and not wanting to risk confrontation with British intelligence, determined Vanunu should be persuaded to leave British territory under his own volition. Israel’s efforts to capture Vanunu were headed by Giora Tzahor.[35]

    Through constant surveillance and analysis by Mossad psychologists, the Mossad found that Vanunu had become lonely and eager for female companionship. Masquerading as an American tourist called “Cindy”, Israeli Mossad agent Cheryl Bentov befriended Vanunu, and on 30 September persuaded him to fly to Rome with her on a holiday.[36] This relation has been perceived as a classic honey trap operation whereby an intelligence agent employs seduction to gain the target’s trust—a practice which has been officially sanctioned in Israel.[37][38][39] On the day Bentov met Vanunu, the Israeli Navy electronic surveillance ship INS Noga was ordered to the Italian coast.

    The Noga, disguised as a merchant ship, was fitted with electronic surveillance equipment and satellite communications gear in its superstructure, and was primarily used to intercept communications traffic in Arab ports. As the ship was heading from Antalya in Turkey back to Haifa, the captain was instructed in an encrypted message to change course for Italy and anchor off the coast. The Noga arrived off the Italian port city of La Spezia and anchored in international waters, just outside Italian territorial waters.

    Once in Rome, Vanunu and Bentov took a taxi to an apartment in the old quarter of the city, where three waiting Mossad operatives overpowered Vanunu and injected him with a paralyzing drug. Later that night, a white van hired by the Israeli embassy arrived, and Vanunu was carried to it on a stretcher. The ambulance drove out of Rome, down the coast to a pre-arranged point.

    Vanunu was transferred to a waiting speedboat, which then rendezvoused with the waiting Noga anchored off the coast. He was brought aboard the Noga in total secrecy. The crew were told to assemble in the ship’s common room and lock the door as Vanunu and the Mossad agents were taken aboard. The ship then departed for Israel. During the journey, Vanunu was kept in a cabin, with Mossad agents taking turns guarding him. None of the Noga’s crew was allowed to look at the prisoner.

    On 6 October, the ship anchored off the coast of Israel between Tel Aviv and Haifa, where it was met by a smaller vessel to which Vanunu was transferred. The vessel then took Vanunu to the shore, where he was taken into custody and questioned by Mossad interrogators.’

  • fred

    @John Spencer-Davis

    You once gave me some advice now I’ll give you some. Nip it in the bud and tell them to FOAD as soon as they start making it personal or they’ll be having their fun leading you by the ear for ever more.

  • Alcyone

    “—OMG, next we will have someone accusing commenters who use personalised avatars of somehow being elitist. (I mean, don’t personalised avatars “stick out like a sore thumb” even more than a ‘signature’?)”


    “Should we assume that when you are withholding your KR, that you are withholding respect for the addressee?”

    —Should we assume that when you withold the valediction “Sincerely,” you are being insincere?”


    Context is everything.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    11:31 am

    I’m sorry, I do not remember the advice I gave you, but I hope you found it good.

    Thank you, much appreciated.

    Kind regards,


  • John Goss

    “As for the Ukrainian regime being openly Nazi in sympathy and fascistic in its daily practices – perhaps you could explain how said regime yesterday voted for decentralisation of power against the voices of the extreme right wing elements in Ukraine.”

    Could only be written by the plonker of plonkers.

    Poroshenko was called to Germany to be grilled by Hollande and Merkel to abide by Minsk 2 and grant certain autonomy. Neither he nor the fascists in the streetsof Kiev (2 killed yesterday) want them to have autonomy. That was evident to most before he went – the absence of Putin was the big indicator. Somebody in Europe has some common sense.

    Your lot (US/UK/Ukraine) have created a failed state where before there had been unity for 90 plus years. You should hang your head in shame!

  • John Spencer-Davis


    Your contributions are much appreciated, and I’m quite happy for you to reach your own conclusions,

    I don’t think I have seen you post before. If you are new, please do bear in mind that what goes on here may have a history, and how I sign my name may not be what this is fully about.

    Kind regards,


  • Macky

    Of course Faslane should be shut down; not only is it part of the Military Industrial Complex, which spreads death & destruction in order to make a few people very rich, but it’s also part of the Nuclear Industrial Complex, which is even more insidious as it endangers the whole planet, so again that a few people can become very rich.

    There is a wealth of literature & studies that have research these two malign “Complexes”, one such study, conducted by Robert Pollin and Heidi Garrett-Peltier at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, concluded that an economy focused on peaceful priorities would employ many more Americans than an a war focused economy. In their study they said: “This study focuses on the employment effects of military spending versus alternative domestic spending priorities, in particular investments in clean energy, health care and education . . . We show that investments in clean energy, health care and education create a much larger number of jobs across all pay ranges, including mid-range jobs and high-paying jobs. Channeling funds into clean energy, health care and education in an effective way will therefore create significantly greater opportunities for decent employment throughout the U.S. economy than spending the same amount of funds with the military.”

  • Je

    The British establishment have a naive view that Trident is an invulnerable system and also that its independent – even though it patently isn’t.

    The US can pull the plug anytime. We’ve recently heard how security at Faslane is a farce. And there’s poor protection for the submarines once they’ve left it.

    It reaks with vulnerabilities and it’ll cost £100 billion. The assumption is the Russian will play cricket – when the one certainty is they wouldn’t.

  • Pan

    John S-D,

    I get the feeling that moisture behind the ears takes years to evaporate in this forum.

    Still, when I feel strongly enough about some topic that arises, and at the same time qualified by what I hope is a not-insignificant degree of informedness, then I will throw in my ha’penny’s worth.


  • Mark Golding

    Interesting Mary – Without appearing precocious and as a warning to others maybe: some time ago now a beautiful young woman looking distraught was sitting on a step in an underpass I was walking through. As I approached her she looked up and said she had lost her door-key, could not get in to her flat and had left meat roasting in the oven. I looked around and saw a bunch of keys about a metre from where she was sitting. I picked up the keys, gave them to her and she insisted I should accompany her to the flat which was ‘just round the corner’ in an adjoining street to share a meal (roast dinner).

    I politely declined more than once as she insisted saying “I’m really grateful let me at least return your good will to help me in some way, pleeeze” a coffee, a drink, a smoke…

    The flat was empty a week later and I never saw this women again.

  • Pan

    @Blair paterson
    1 Sep, 2015 – 1:19 pm

    Pull up a search engine (I recommend and put in keywords:

    Government + revolving door + big business

    That should provide you with plenty of reading, and begin to reveal the answer to your question.

  • glenn

    Saint Fred : “You once gave me some advice now I’ll give you some. Nip it in the bud and tell them to FOAD as soon as they start making it personal or they’ll be having their fun leading you by the ear for ever more.

    And how’s that working out for you? Your tactic has shown you up as being oafish, foul-mouthed and abusive. If that was your aim, congratulations are in order.

  • lysias


    No, I never met Feynman. I was a classicist, not a physicist.

    I just happened to be working at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton at the time, and going to the memorial service was a way of paying respect to a member of the Institute community.

  • Habbabkuk (la vita e' bella)


    “France and Germany totally ignored it and modernised their mining industries,….”


    That gives – whether deliberately or inadvertently – the impression that France and Germany have thriving mining industries.

    Let me correct you. They do not and have not had for years. There is no (coal)mining in France any more and in Germany there are only a couple of dirty lignite coal mines left (in the former GDR).

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