Good luck to Catalonia today in breaking free from the suffocating grip of Spain. I hope that the Francoists in power in Madrid do nothing to provoke violence.
There may be an important precedent here on how to proceed in the event of the central government refusing to grant a referendum. I was pleased that Alex Salmond came out last week and said that a referendum is not necessarily the only route for Scotland. While that position is undoubtedly correct in international law, I had suffered pooh-poohing from Leadership Loyalists in Scotland every time I mentioned it. Hopefully now Salmond has spoken, the sheep will stop bleating. We do not know how things will pan out with Westminster and we must not close off our own options.
There is one interesting side issue in Catalonia. The astroturf anti-independence organisation Ciutadans (Ciudadanos in the rest of Spain) is a classic creation of Western security services. Its purpose is to counter both Catalan Independence and still more, Podemos, and maintain a secure right wing Spain in NATO. But unusually it is not the CIA that has been in the lead, but the BND, the German overseas security service. This is an outlier for a newly assertive policy by the BND, so the results will be watched particularly closely in the more obscured corridors of Berlin.
El Sid
“The west then set up dictatorships in Greece, Spain and Portugal.”
___________________
I was enjoying your post until I came to the above sentence.
You are incorrect as far as Greece and Portugal are concerned and only partially right on Spain.
It is clear that the word “then”, taken together with your preceding text, means that you are talking about post-1945.
The Salazar dictatorship was already well in place in Portugal by 1945. It existed as from 1934 (if memory serves).
There was no dictatorship in Greece post-war until 1967. There were several general elections in Greece post-1945, the first one being held on 31 March 1946 (the Tsaldaris govt.).
You are correct in the case of Spain in the sense that the Franco dictatorship, which was finally established in 1939, was permitted to emerge from its international isolation (but see below*) by the early 1950s in large part through the actions of the USA (which actions coincided with the hardening of the Cold War).
* Interestingly enough, the only countries which attempted to deliver Spain from its diplomatic isolation between 1945 and the early 1950s by refusing to sever diplomatic relations – as demanded by the newly-formed United Nations, were Switzerland, the Vatican and…..Peron’s Argentina, a couple of other South American countries and the majority of the then-independent Arab states.
Hope that helps.
“Meanwhile the Red Tories, are back to lying as usual, shame I had high hopes for Jeremy Corbyn.”
I was hearing how Michelle Thomson gets up and sings three choruses of The Red Flag every morning before she starts on the shady property deals.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1612472.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_09_26
It cost the tax payer £20,000 to find out he was lying.”
fred, are you still on the happy pills, perchance?
“Good luck to Catalonia today in breaking free from the suffocating grip of Spain. I hope that the Francoists in power in Madrid do nothing to provoke violence.”
_____________________
This all about Scotland in reality, isn’t it – I doubt that Craig spent much time in the more-distant past thinking about independence for Catalonia/Catalunya.
I believe that the movement for Catalonian independence is driven largely by economic and financial considerations. There is a strong political tendency in Catalonia – which has at present a (very) large degree of autonomy (doubters can study the Spanish Consitution) – which trades on the feeling that its relatively prosperous economy is being milked to pay for the more backward regions of the rest of Spain. There are strong analogies here with the Italian Lega Nord – not, I suggest, a very inspiring example.
I would also take issue with the second sentence of the extract quoted. What makes Craig so sure that violence – if it occurs (one hopes it will not)will be provoked by Madrid? There is also a strong – and disagreeable – implication in that sentence and the word “provoked” that even if violence should occur elsewhere (ie, in Catalonia itself) it will still somehow be the “fault” of Madrid.
Finally, I should recommend a careful reading of the Spanish Constitution is advised before pronouncing on the legality or otherwise of referenda organised by the autonomous regions of Spain
That doesn’t alter the fact he lied and he wasted £20,000 of tax payers’ money ”
Fred-thats peanuts conpared to the £100 billion trident costs , the unionists are paying for their seat at the top tables…
shame I had high hopes for Jeremy Corbyn.”
So did I, Republic-guess the only way he will progress is to form his own party…………..
I am pleased to report that now it has surpassed the 28 comment rule by 10 and not one genuine government troll has graced the page, just normal nuttering.
Well done everybody, carry on. Craig will tell you wars are not fought by the security services at weekends. Its the Law.
Breaking news Pro-independence parties likely to win majority in Catalan elections – exit polls
http://www.rt.com/news/316629-catalonia-vote-independence-polls/
Venceremos!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGazscDbUkI
German intelligence connection with Spain? Reminds me of how close the relationship was between Franco and Admiral Canaris, the head of German military intelligence, the Abwehr, during the Nazi time.
I once had dinner in Canaris’s house in the Dahlem neighborhood of Berlin when I was stationed in that city. The dinner was given by the U.S. Air Force commander, Col. Halvorsen (aka “the Candy Bomber”, from the Berlin Airlift days,) who continued to display photos of Canaris (who was eventually executed by the Nazis) on the walls of the house, which was then assigned to him.
Gosh, you are perfinicky, Troll Bunny:
“There was no dictatorship in Greece post-war until 1967. There were several general elections in Greece post-1945, the first one being held on 31 March 1946 (the Tsaldaris govt.).”
Well, technically, yes indeedy.
But there was that embarrassing moment when your Brit army friends murdered the Greek resistance and drove them into exile and impossed the old order that let Mussolini in, thus the resulting election would technically be regarded as absolutely, totally, really, truly, trust me “democratic”, I swear on the bodies of 12 thou murdered partisans.
Mary
William Hill paid out 2 weeks ago..
Whilst Barcelona is one of my favourite cities it’s many years now since I’ve been in this part of the world; ie, I can’t add much about the present political situation in Catalonia.
So instead sort of off topic, and the latest episode of The Empire Files:
“Abby Martin interviews Chris Hedges on American myths, war and revolt. Hedges explains the ‘folly of Empire,’ the dangers posed by right-wing extremism and the urgent need for a new system.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNlW-S7gzdg
Hedges is the only high profile American intellectual who openly calls for revolution. I’m sure many here are familiar with his views. However, in the above interview Hedges comes out with some new stuff; or so it seems to me.
El Sid
Thanks for your comments on Greece. Do you have anything to say about my corrections concerning what you claimed about Spain and Portugal?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyway, to stay with Greece for now. You write:
“But there was that embarrassing moment when your Brit army friends murdered the Greek resistance and drove them into exile and impossed the old order that let Mussolini in, thus the resulting election would technically be regarded as absolutely, totally, really, truly, trust me “democratic”, I swear on the bodies of 12 thou murdered partisans.”
____________________
Now, firstly, are you talking about the 1944 “ta Dekemvriana” or about the Greek civil war?
I imagine the former since you mention the “resulting” election, ie the election of 31 March 1946 and because the civil war only started toward the end of 1946
If so, then you are incorrect to say that the British army “murdered” the “Greek resistance” and incorrect to say that the “Greek resistance” was “driven into exile”. On the contrary, the “Greek resistance” was very much around – unmurdered – after “ta Dekemvriana” – so much so that a Communist inspired and directed civil war managed to start towards the end of 1946.
Then again, you are wrong to say that the British troops “imposed the old order” : on the contrary, the presence of British troops allowed democratic elections to be held on 31 March 1946. The “old order” which you claim was imposed refers to the pre-war Metaxas dictatorship which, as with most dictatorships,did NOT allow elections to be held.
A further error in your otherwise excellent post is when you say that the “old order” – ie, the dictatorship of General Metaxas – “let in Mussolini”. On the contrary, Metaxas rejected the Italian demand that its troops be allowed to enter Greece – an action which most reasonable people would construe as being the very opposite of “letting Mussolini in”.
+++++++++++++++++
Conclusions: clench your buttocks – focus – get your facts right – reflect before posting – don’t mix it with people who know their history somewhat better than you do.
There may no longer be Moors fighting for una España una, grande, y libre, but there certainly are fascists and mercenaries.
I once dined in the house of a man who who’d dated a girl who’d stepped out with a friend of the (current) Prince of Wales.
Unfortunately, there were no photos of the Prince of Wales on the wall.
I surmise that we are being told that our Transatlantic Friend knows Spanish.
As some of us don’t, perhaps we could have a translation of the expression “una Espana una, grande y libre”?
I know we were given a translation a couple of weeks ago but I for one have forgotten what it was.
Muchas gracias, Amigo!
Catalans vote in election that could determine their northern region’s future as part of Spain
26 September 2015
BARCELONA, Spain (AP) — Voters in Catalonia participated in an election Sunday that could propel the northeastern region toward independence from the rest of Spain or quell secessionism for years.
Secessionists have long pushed for an independence referendum, but Spain’s central government has not allowed one, arguing it would be unconstitutional because only it can call such a vote.
Sunday’s election is for Catalonia’s 135-member Parliament, located in the region’s capital Barcelona. Secessionists argue that if they win 68 seats, the result would give them a democratic mandate to initiate a split from Spain that could include a unilateral declaration of independence.
The central government of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy says it will use all legal means to prevent Catalonia from breaking away, an exit European leaders warn would include ejection from the European Union.
Polls have forecast a slim win for the pro-independence parties. But they also indicate that the leading bloc of separatist parties “Together for Yes” will likely need the support of the extreme left-wing CUP to cobble together a majority of seats needed to launch their push to sever century-old ties with the rest of Spain.
Associated Press
http://www.fresnobee.com/entertainment/article36708213.html#
Gosh Bunny, you are busy.
Double pay on Sundays?
Are you unionised in your outfit? Lucky Bunny.
Yeah, you’re right, my history’s not as fine as yours, but I am busy watching the election results.
However my statement still stands: your lot “liberated” Greece from the Germans, then initiated the slaughter of the Greek resistance in order to establish control over the Med. You call that democracy, well I remember somebody shouting Freeman Moxy as they entered Baghdad.
Ha El Sid. No 3 here. Steve Bell speaks in Dubyaese.
http://www.theguardian.com/arts/pictures/image/0,8543,-10305016798,00.html
You fool El Sid wot you heard was Fermin (Kaye) Locksley, you have carried this hate around and it doesn’t even belong to you, give it to has no nads he can’t get enough of the stuff
Mary
Can we start again?
Brown’s the new red
Good news from Catalonia!
With 97% of the vote in, ALL 7 party lists are declaring victory.
That’s Spain for you.
The spread here:
http://elecciones.elperiodico.com/resultados/autonomicas/2015/catalunya/?_ga=1.65688686.1917034703.1359193673
‘Separatists have won a clear majority in Catalonia’s regional parliament – raising the prospect of a declaration of independence from Spain.
The Together for Yes group of secessionists scooped 62 seats in the 135-member assembly in the country’s northeastern region, while the radical left pro-independence Popular Unity Candidacy party won another 10 seats, official results showed.
Both parties have pledged to unilaterally declare independence within 18 months.
The separatists want to impose their own constitution and form an army, central bank and judicial system.
Acting Catalan regional government leader Artur Mas told supporters: “We won.
“Catalans have voted yes to independence.”
He added: “There are two victories tonight, one for ‘Yes’ and another for democracy.”‘
http://news.sky.com/story/1559884/separatists-win-majority-in-catalan-elections
http://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/scotland-independence_-6.jpg?w=330&h=220
Ay Carmela is such a great song that I really ought to provide a Youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fko5fYIBJFU
wow, its the new catwalk of avatars, posing for best prose?
I gave a link to Wikipedia in an attempt to explain ¡Una, Grande y Libre!, but it has been deleted. Let me give the link again, with this explanatory sentence preceding: ¡Una, Grande y Libre!
The astroturf anti-independence organisation Ciutadans (Ciudadanos in the rest of Spain) is a classic creation of Western security services. Its purpose is to counter both Catalan Independence and still more, Podemos, and maintain a secure right wing Spain in NATO. But unusually it is not the CIA that has been in the lead, but the BND, the German overseas security service.
Interesting comment from Craig here which begs the question- to what extent is the BND defending Germany’s ‘security interests’ when according to some reports its primary function is to assist the activities, and thus the agenda and interests, of America’s NSA ?
http://www.dw.com/en/report-bnd-nsa-collaboration-deeper-than-thought/a-18425290
O/T Cameron is messing in Somalia under the guise of peacekeeping with the UN. There is no stopping his global domination aspirations – moving on to S Sudan next.
‘British troops for Somalia peacekeeping mission
1 hour ago
Somalia’s government is battling al-Shabab for control of the country
Dozens of British troops are to be deployed to Somalia to help peacekeeping efforts to counter Islamic militants, David Cameron has announced.
Up to 70 personnel will join a United Nations contingent supporting African Union troops fighting al-Shabab.
Up to 300 could also be deployed in South Sudan over time.’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34376652
And 13 photos of that moon.
http://news.sky.com/story/1559969/blood-red-supermoon-eclipse-wows-skywatchers