Dreams of Catalonia 131

Good luck to Catalonia today in breaking free from the suffocating grip of Spain. I hope that the Francoists in power in Madrid do nothing to provoke violence.

There may be an important precedent here on how to proceed in the event of the central government refusing to grant a referendum. I was pleased that Alex Salmond came out last week and said that a referendum is not necessarily the only route for Scotland. While that position is undoubtedly correct in international law, I had suffered pooh-poohing from Leadership Loyalists in Scotland every time I mentioned it. Hopefully now Salmond has spoken, the sheep will stop bleating. We do not know how things will pan out with Westminster and we must not close off our own options.

There is one interesting side issue in Catalonia. The astroturf anti-independence organisation Ciutadans (Ciudadanos in the rest of Spain) is a classic creation of Western security services. Its purpose is to counter both Catalan Independence and still more, Podemos, and maintain a secure right wing Spain in NATO. But unusually it is not the CIA that has been in the lead, but the BND, the German overseas security service. This is an outlier for a newly assertive policy by the BND, so the results will be watched particularly closely in the more obscured corridors of Berlin.

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131 thoughts on “Dreams of Catalonia

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  • Ishmael

    Ba’al Zevul.

    No, he totally is confident in his attitude…healthy, fit, and just does not fit in. Even with his shy gay act. No reason for him to keep coming somewhere like a local Telford pub…

  • Peter Beswick

    Well even for me that’s a bit gayist.

    He could be a,b,c,d & a few more but if a bloke started coming in my local and kept himself to himself I would think he was gay, if he wore pink socks I would. I wouldn’t normally think he was a spy but that has happened on a couple of occasions but that’s another story.

  • Ishmael

    And telling me how he was in Greece the other week. Obviously travels and has money. It’s Just totally wrong for here..This is a backwater…

    I tell you I wish I could be convinced, I want to be. I want to see 5 fingers.

  • Ishmael

    Ok I’v just been to the local school to meet a relation. Happed to see a girl who works at the pub (only started recently) she doesn’t know him, nobody seems to know him that I can recall.

    I think people suspect, but the pub let’s stuff go on. So maybe leverage? It’s kinda known for a blind eye and i’v never been that bothered by some minor coke heads.

    ATM I’m a mix of gut wrenching feelings and working out just how angry I am.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Well even for me that’s a bit gayist.

    Think you’re being pink-sockist, myself. However, a very successful diversion from the topic.

    Which may be (a) Catalonia, (b) Scotland, (c) Craig’s ongoing disagreement with the SNP or (d)the wholly unexpected connection between the intelligence services of our NATO allies, pmsl. Spoilt for choice.

  • Ken2

    @ the younger one’ s are not oppose to Independence 16/17 year olds . 18-24 year old slight dip – students from elsewhere. Everyone eligible to vote in a GE election + 16/17 year olds got to vote. There was no residential year qualification. Non residents were allowed to vote – holiday home owners etc.

    There are more elderly voters as a % o the pop. They were lied toabout their pensions. Scottish taxpayers pay for (UK) Gov pensions welfare benefits in Scotland. (Gov) occupation (funds) pensions are paid anywhere in the world. @ Wings over Scotland.

    Total taxes raised in Scotland £54Billion+ Scotland gets £50Billion? Back.

    Total taxes raised in the UK £466Billion. Take £54Billion from £466Billion = £412Billion. Scotland pop 1/12 of UK. £412Billion divided by 11 (rest of the UK – 11/12 pop of UK) = £39Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £90Billion more. Scotland has to hand over £4Billion in interest payments it doesn’t borrow or spend. Scotland can’t put a tax on ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol cutting consumption and saving money.£Billions. Can’t cut Trident saving monies etc. Scottish Gov has few economic powers. Scotland would be £10Billion? a year better off Independent.

    Westminster has illegally and secretly taken the equivalent of £Billions from Scotland. (Thatcher – 3Million unemployed, interest rates at 15%) Scotland outvoted 10 to 1 at Westminster, only got Democracy in 2000 with Devolution and the establishment of the Scottish Parliament.

    Scotland raises £54Billion in tax (hands over £4Billion to Westminster) The rest of the UK raises pro rata £39Billion. (Borrows and spends £90Billion more) Osbourne is cutting the deficit but putting up the debt by printing money QE. Now getting funds/borrowing from the Chinese (no universal suffrage)

    The Oil sector is being taxed at 55% despite the price per barrel falling by 50%. That is why people are losing their jobs. Westminster associates and Multinationals making vast profits are illegally tax evading through the City of London. HMRC is not fit for purpose. The UK tax Laws are not being inforced by Westminster.

  • Mary

    Did Gideon tell the Chinese to stop dumping steel on the world market?

    The Chinese are the bogeymen according to the MSM and are accountable for the loss of 1,700 jobs at Redcar and the mothballing of the iron and steel works. Its blast furnace is the second largest in Europe.


    Dorman Long>British Steel>Corus>Tata>SSI


    A sad day for those 1,700 workers who have been put on the scrapheap.

  • Ken2

    The EU Union and UK Union are totally different. Different rights, economic responsibilities. The EU agreed contribution comes back in CAP payments and Grants etc. EU has good social Laws etc. As part of the UK Scotland receives the lowest CAP payment of any EU member. Westminster took EU extra funding (for Scotland) and distributed the payment in the rest of the UK.

    The terms of the Act of Union, of being equal treated and fair, has been broken by Westminster. Scotland to have it’s Legal system, Independent Church – Church of Scotland/Education – and shared Protestant Monarch forever. It could only be changed by discussion/agreement/rep from both government. Westminster ‘The Official Secret Act’ and secret, illegal governance. Under Scottish Law citizens are sovereign. Under English Law citzens are subjects of the Crown. Different Legal/Education systems.

  • Peter Beswick

    We have an inalienable right to choose our subjugator. That said heavy price has been payed for that right, millions of lives, trillions of dollars, truth and justice but it was a price worth paying.

  • glenn

    “Did Gideon tell the Chinese to stop dumping steel on the world market?

    Do you really think he’s in a position to tell them anything?

  • Ken2

    The guy in the pub is maybe Aspergers.

    The figures are Scottish figures under UK financial economic figures governance ie Westminster ie cooking the books or fraud. Scotland getting lumbered with rest of UK debt, it doesn’t borrow or spend. Osbourne does the borrowing and spending (printing money/putting up the debt) with economic policies Scotland has no say on. Outvoted 10 to 1. Policies which are detrimental to Scotland and the Scottish economy because Holyrood has limited economic powers.

    The youngest voters 16/17 voted for Independence There was a slight dip In 18-24 year olds. Students from elsewhere getting a subsided education from Scottish taxpayers. There ‘s gratitude? Lies and the Official Secrets Act cover up for Westminster corruption.

  • ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    7:59 am : “If I was to propose dropping 18 nuclear bombs on Scotland . . . .”

    OK, Fred, you’ve gone too far this time, and anyway, you know that sock-puppeting isn’t allowed.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Now all NATO has to do from its headquarters in Brussels is to get European national minorities, transnational minorities, and indigenous minorities fired up similarly for national independence, and the continent would be back in the Dark Ages!

  • Ishmael

    Ps, Thanks for the advise Craig. No matter the truth I see why it may not be a good idea for someone like me to take it up. Guess I don’t know what to do…And I advised the person I impulsively asked about him not to try and find anything out after she suggested she would…Think that pub is now out of bounds. No problem.

    But, God it’s all such a mess. Maybe the blog should come with a ‘may destruct your life’ warning.

    So what, I should just not comment and go away, live in fear of talking openly. I just say what many people say, support causes I feel I should. Such a mess.

  • fred

    “OK, Fred, you’ve gone too far this time, and anyway, you know that sock-puppeting isn’t allowed.”

    I just post the facts, the referendum survey results and the Scottish government’s fiscal data.

    However the incredibly biassed moderation allow he Nationalists to respond with personal attacks and accusations.

    What does that say about the integrity of Craig Murray in particular and Nationalists in general?

  • ------------·´`·.¸¸.¸¸.··.¸¸Node

    “I just post the facts”
    Well, you’ve got a sense of humour. I’ll give you that.

    However the incredibly biassed moderation allow he Nationalists to respond with personal attacks and accusations.
    Oop, I spoke too soon.

    P.S. I’m not a Nationalist. I’m an SNP voter.

  • Habbbabkuk (scourge of the Original Trolls)

    Ba’al Zevul

    “And telling me how he was in Greece the other week.

    Ask him if he’s Habbakuk.”

    There’s only one Habbabkuk on here, Ba’al.

    That’s Habbabkuk with three “b”s by the way (except when it’s with only two).

  • Jon

    Fred, my understanding is that where an item is deleted by mods other than Craig, they exercise their own discretion. There is certainly no directive to permit abuse one way but not the other – and as you know Craig tends towards a policy of letting things through.

    I don’t know what has been deleted in this case, but you have a long history of extremely aggressive and personal abuse on this board, so you don’t much have a leg to stand on. Moderators are generally unwilling to hear that “the other boy started it” – abuse is abuse, and I think more of it should be deleted, not less. It is usually not possible to work out who originated a particular piece of animosity.

    Aside: I recall Richard Murphy has an extremely strict policy on his blog, and the result is that people who are knowledgeable on the topic of tax reform are able to discourse without having to deal with persistent disruption. I don’t know if it would work well here, since the format is much more free-flowing, but we should note that permitting all speech has the paradoxical effect of shutting down free speech, since the gems get lost amongst all the vitriol.

    (FWIW I am quite happy to read links opposed to Scottish Independence and/or the SNP, but you have really tired out this old hobby horse, and you may not find many converts to your cause if you are not yourself willing to be open minded).

  • lysias

    Very illuminating article on the Catalan election in Politico by freelance journalist Jan Marot (given his name, I wonder if he is Catalan), Seven Takeaways from the Catalonia Election, with this very interesting paragraph:

    This is a massive jolt for Spain, and, foremost, for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy and his People’s Party (Partido Popular), who obtained only eleven seats in the Catalan parliament. Their strategy of spreading fear of the consequences of secession among Catalan citizens failed, as the results indicate. Madrid is running out of options, and should now allow a formal referendum in Catalonia, letting the Catalonians themselves decide on the language of the question. Rupture may not necessarily be the final outcome, as we have seen in Scotland. Nevertheless negotiation, and real dialogue, is key, beyond populism and stubbornness. But when and by whom? Rajoy, it would appear, has disqualified himself in the eyes of the Catalan public; and he could be replaced soon after Spain’s general elections in December.

    Perhaps it would make more sense for Rajoy to resign right away? Can he or the king call for early elections?

  • lysias

    A comment to that Politico piece gives an answer to those who are saying that the separatists did not get a majority of the voteL

    The independentists are 48% but the unionists aren’t 52%, they are less than 40%.

    CSQEP coallition (10%) have federalists and independentists on their lists and are pro-constitutional process in Catalonia regardless Spain let them do it or not.

  • lysias

    Leader Pablo Yglesias of Podemos says that, if he wins the next Spanish elections (scheduled for December), he will call for a referendum in Catalonia that will clearly define Catalonia’s legal status and in which he will support a no vote to independence. http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/politica/elecciones-catalanas-2015-reacciones-directo-4543748

    El líder de Podemos, Pablo Iglesias, se ha comprometido a convocar un referéndum en Catalunya si gana las elecciones generales con una consulta clara e inequívoca que defina la relación jurídica que los catalanes quieren tener con España, y en el que defenderá el ‘no’ a la independencia.

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