Dreams of Catalonia 131

Good luck to Catalonia today in breaking free from the suffocating grip of Spain. I hope that the Francoists in power in Madrid do nothing to provoke violence.

There may be an important precedent here on how to proceed in the event of the central government refusing to grant a referendum. I was pleased that Alex Salmond came out last week and said that a referendum is not necessarily the only route for Scotland. While that position is undoubtedly correct in international law, I had suffered pooh-poohing from Leadership Loyalists in Scotland every time I mentioned it. Hopefully now Salmond has spoken, the sheep will stop bleating. We do not know how things will pan out with Westminster and we must not close off our own options.

There is one interesting side issue in Catalonia. The astroturf anti-independence organisation Ciutadans (Ciudadanos in the rest of Spain) is a classic creation of Western security services. Its purpose is to counter both Catalan Independence and still more, Podemos, and maintain a secure right wing Spain in NATO. But unusually it is not the CIA that has been in the lead, but the BND, the German overseas security service. This is an outlier for a newly assertive policy by the BND, so the results will be watched particularly closely in the more obscured corridors of Berlin.

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131 thoughts on “Dreams of Catalonia

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  • Resident Dissident

    “Acting Catalan regional government leader Artur Mas told supporters: “We won.

    “Catalans have voted yes to independence.””

    No they didn’t the pro independence parties did not obtain a majority of the popular vote.

    And to call the party voted into power in Spain as a whole “francoist” is frankly just an insult to the voters of Spain – who know rather more than Craig what being a “francoist” actually means.

  • Peter Beswick

    Wots the point of borders?

    Hadrian and Craig thought/think they were/are important, the line between life and death used to be, well natural but since Cameron decided to get a twit to fire a Hellfire missile thought a taxi window and Kill a British person (not Scottish) even that line (life and death) has been defiled.

    What good are borders, they proved a point between East and West Germany but I am not sure what that point was. And why would you want the good people of Burnmouth and Berwick more constrained than they already are?

    Is it beyond the wit of men (ignoring gender lines for the moment) to find other ways of controlling the serfs without drawing lines and killing?

    If I was to propose dropping 18 nuclear bombs on Scotland rather than draw a thicker line I would get funny looks (I wouldn’t turn funny looking) but I could put up a good case that it would reduce the overall suffering in a 70 year period for both Scots and the English. But no the line drawers are not imaginative enough to see that improving things comes second to changing things they don’t like (and don’t understand what it is they don’t like and don’t understand or want to think through the consequences of their lines).

    If you are going to play by politicians rules you need to know why they are doing what they do and how you go along with it satisfies their desires.

    But if there are to be lines and that is inevitable can we have a thicker, armed one between Lancashire and Yorkshire (both sides want it) and by thicker I am not referring to Craig’s ideas?

  • Alcyone

    27 Sep, 2015 – 11:54 pm
    I gave a link to Wikipedia in an attempt to explain ¡Una, Grande y Libre!, but it has been deleted.
    Lysias, the ‘moderation’ here seems to be more like ‘editing’ based on personal ‘like’ and ‘dislike’.

    I made an innocuous comment about the (off-topic) commenter at 5.33pm that he did not know anything about change management. Deleted! But the off-topic remains!!

    I’m beginning to get the feeling that there may be some special protection for the Nationalists and select Eminences. And then look at the inane stuff at 9.50/53pm !!

    Oh well, I like to observe it as it is. I bet this comment will self-destruct well before you wake up.

    Finally, thanks for your help on my quitting smoking. I’ve managed a week now with vaping–coming along well now, it’s a great alternative to smoking.

  • Alcyone

    Also, I had left a very brief comment, well before 10pm, to the effect that the ‘dream was soon to be a reality’. On-topic, as I had just put the phone down from speaking with a friend in Spain who mentioned that free-Catalonia folks had won the vote. I didn’t have to spell it out. My brief on-topic message was clear, but no, deleted!

    Heavens know what passes here for ‘. moderation’

    It is irritating, but I think I’m gonna learn from JC, who doesn’t ‘do irritation’. Great.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Coincidentally, I’ve just been reading “Operation Mincemeat”. After which it doesn’t seem odd at all that the BND’s working in Spain. Still. It’s to be hoped that they are no more competent than the Abwehr.

    Just like Scotland, Catalonia’s finances need work. I’d say this will be the deciding factor in any move for independence, not German subversion.

  • Ken2

    Franco used (hired) the German airforce (Hitler) to bomb the Basques (Catalonia) In bitter Spanish Civil War. Spain has only been a Constitutional monarchy (Universal suffrage) since Franco died. Relatively new Democracy.

    The majority of voters in Catalonia did not vote for a Referendum on Independence. The majority voted NO. 2Million voted YES out of 5.4Million voters (80%) turnout. 7.5Million+ Pop.

    There is more support in Scotland pro rata as a %, and rising. It only needs a 5% swing in Scotland Very achievable with the younger voters increasing.

    Catalonia/Quebec and the Scottish Independence Movements are different. Too different to be similar. Catalonia/Quebec are being used as a sublime message against Scottish Independence Movement. I.e. too wee, too poor, too stupid, too weak etc.

    Catalonia/Quebec and Scottish Independence Movement are very different Dufferent economies, different Laws, different cultures, history, and traditions Different geography, different population, different autonomy. Too many differences to be similar.

    There have many Independence Movements in the world. Most of them succeeded, successfully.

  • Ken2

    Catalonia – Vote on whether to hold Referebdum. Two million who voted Voted YES, out of 5.4million (total electorate or 80% turnout?) Pop 7.5Million. There is something wrong with the statistics. Something is being lost in translation. A majority of electorate did not vote YES to a Referendum on Independence.

  • Mary

    For those in denial. From the BBC website 1 hr ago.

    Catalonia vote: Pro-independence parties win elections
    1 hour ago

    Pro-independence parties in Spain’s Catalonia region have won an absolute majority in regional elections.

    The main separatist alliance and a smaller nationalist party won 72 seats in the 135-seat regional parliament.

    However, the pro-independence parties fell just short of getting 50% of the vote, winning 1.9 million out of 4 million ballots cast.

    The separatists say the victory gives them a clear mandate to form an independent Catalan state.

    Spain’s central government in Madrid has pledged to challenge any unilateral moves towards independence in court.’



  • Ken2

    Catalonia 7,5+ pop- 1/5 of Spain 40Million. Scotland 5.5Million. 1/12 of UK pop 62Million. Different economies, Laws, equal Union?, different economies, history, traditions, culture, political system. Different local/central autonomy, different geography etc. Spanish/UK Gov both corrupt.

  • Ken2

    4Million votes cast out of 7.5Million pop. 1.9 million YES party – 2.1 million NO party. Lower turnout 50%? Catalonia must have a different voter/base registered to vote. Or non Spanish citizens or non EU citiens can’t vote? Or some catagories of residents in Catalonia are not getting to vote? Different criteria.

    Ref Scotland 3.6 voters out of 4Million electorate – 85% turnout 2Million NO. 1.6Million YES – higher turnout. Higher voter base as a % of pop than Catalonia? Or more kids as a % of pop of Catalonia.

    In Scotland all legible voters resident in Scotland as per GE got to vote.

  • nevermind

    Oh those nasty germans again, first it was Volkswagen, now its catalonia….

    Well, its all good and chumping to want democratic rights for others, does this not preclude that one has to have an understanding of what democratic rights entail?
    maybe experienced democratic rights like a warm shower whilst others are having election victories using such rights.

    How about helping our youth parliament representatives to campaign on this issue, because the Greens and New ‘People’ party of Corbyn dare not mention fair proportional voting just in case it upsets their applecart.

    The Tobin tax alone will not persuade Greens to vote Labour, who knows what will be left of a principled agenda, the waffling has already started.


    And Catalonia will have to realise that as long aas the North is providing 25% of Spains economic recovery, which is the strongest recovery in Europe,according to Craig, Madrid will not be persuaded to change the Constitution to allow regional secession.

  • Ishmael

    Best wishes Catalonia.


    Whatever happens from here onwards I have no intention of killing myself, I love my life (aside from state oppression and it effects, which as of this morning i’v become acutely aware of…

    I think I may need some help or advice. I really never thought coming on this blog, especially me being a largely nobody ‘stone-head’ would create such interest in the state, but it appears they are all over me….

    It’s most certain one or more people have been coming to my local pub…..I feel sick…Someone say something nice to me please.

  • El Sid

    Total ppopulation of Catalonia 7.5 million (men women and children + foreigners living here)

    Only 5.5 million have the vote. (EU citizens have the vote in EU and municipal elections, not in national or regional ones)

    Turn out 77.44%

  • Peter Beswick

    And today’s disyllabic award goes to Ken2

    Scotland, I hear, doesn’t want glory riches or honour (just as well) but freedom alone.

    Or to rephrase autonomy and independence.

    OK supposing you get it, including freedom from Europe which I am assuming you want to choose to do but if Britain chooses for you that would be wrong.

    What are you going to do with your freedom? Are you going to sell it to Scots politicians for a promise? Because selling out to Scots thieves is far better than giving way to English ones.

    Will you remain in NATO or will you sell out to the Russians, you have to decide who you want to imprison you, who you give your taxes to so they can drink champagne whilst you make do with your 60/-. Will you allow outside investment and tell the investors they will have no part of the profits?

    Do you even have an idea of what “freedom” means today other than thumbing your nose at the English.

    There is no freedom, you relinquish that when you vote, if you abstain you have no right to it.

    It is even more simple for the Scots than “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose” meaning when you’ve got nowt choosing carries no risks.

    Normal Scots like normal English have nowt choosing separation from England (which incidentally more English want than Scots by numbers and percents) is like a flea jumping from one dog to another.

    Change the political system and you may get a glimpse of freedom.

  • Ishmael

    ps, I really hope i’m proved wrong, BTW. But think i’ll just be proved stupid for not catching on sooner (though I did suspect something up)..The guy just doesn’t fit in. And after a few drinks he let things slip. It’s clear he’s not local.

    I can’t believe the state is doing this to innocent people. I guess it’s because i’m an easy target. No obvious power. But hell, most of the UAF etc etc, are far more militant and active than me. I’m barley even an activist.

    How do I tell the family, do I tell the family? I know i must leave this house soon. But iv nowhere to really go, hostel? I can’t bring this on my family anymore…. I’m at a bit of a loose end here atm so any words would be nice.

  • Peter Beswick


    The opposite happened to me when I came accross Craig’s blog, they stopped following me.

    But seriously if you think that you may be in the slightest bit paranoid, stop using blogs, give the weed/drink a rest and seek help if things don’t improve..

  • craig Post author


    Are you OK? If you feel very bad, it’s best to be with whatever friends or family you can access. It is quite possible that a bloke you know down the pub is not being straight about his identity, but there are many more explanations for that than his being an agent of some kind. I advise against taking it up.

  • Ishmael


    It’s a bit late for that now. I can sometimes be paranoid, but I try and avoid it and think/see the best in people.

    Sorry…Just too many things have now fit into place, and it’s more a result of me actually not smoking much at all atm…No don’t worry about that, I’v quit many times before, and i’ll certainly not be going back now.

    But something tells me it’ll not be easy getting a UK passport. I fully expect an invite to ‘discuss things’ soon.

  • Ishmael

    Thanks Craig. I’m sure he’s not being straight up, never comes’s in with friends or makes any. In fact I know he’s lied to me about his address. But I saw him coming out of a more local house recently ..I actually confronted him on this but I think he may not remember saying he lived in a place quite some distance, This was mouths ago while walking out of the pub together and toward home, We parted company right near the house he came out of the other day, but he implied he still had to walk a distance previously …

    Thank’s again. I guess I need to speak to my folks, or it’ll help. They are just getting on for this kind of thing. We don’t need this,,,grrr….I’ll be ok.

  • Peter Beswick


    Your life sounds tricky at the moment, feeling vulnerable is horrible. Bloke may have his own problems, steer clear of him if you can.

    I hope things get settled soon

    Best Wishes

  • nevermind

    Ishmael, I’m sure you have reassured him somewhat, should he really be a stooge, he would not expect a devout Mulslim to go drinking in pubs much.
    There 101 explanation for a random bloke in a pub, relax.

    @ Peter B. and his multicoloured raincoats, you addressed this at ken2 door.

    “Will you remain in NATO or will you sell out to the Russians, you have to decide who you want to imprison you, who you give your taxes to so they can drink champagne whilst you make do with your 60/-. Will you allow outside investment and tell the investors they will have no part of the profits?”

    So its NATO or the Russians for you is it? You could not even contemplate that those countries who once cooperated in the Hanse, and who protected their trade with ships, fought pirates and all that, could today endeavour to defend Europe, a balancing weight between two evils so to speak. I’m sure that between the French, Finns, Germans, English and Scotts, who knows, Sweden, Norway and Switzerland might also see a point in defending peace in Europe, we might be able to rustle up some hardware and organise around common political aims and objectives to make it work?

    Even Independent states need to feel safe, so whatever happens to the EU, would it not be far better, for the powers that are, to diffuse the two tower blocks and amalgamate to form a third.

    Europe’s history is entwined, we have warred and scrapped for hundreds of years. Now after a long propseropus period of calm and peace in Europe, shattered by cold war solutions after Tito’s death and NATO’s world wide application as an arms window and policeman par excellence, there are now voices who open up old wounds, for their purpose and goals, who are perpetuating terrorists as a justification for their war on terror, who make out that everything is white or black, only.

    I argue that a third block in geo political terms is desirable and could balance what is currently out of kilter.

  • Ishmael

    “There 101 explanation for a random bloke in a pub, relax”

    What ‘random bloke’ with no friends after over a year, NEVER seen him come in with anyone or leave with anyone?

    + Up-to-date political views, thinly masking an obvious authoritarian mindset. “Jeremy is a bit of a joke” Then refuses to give any political preference when pressed on his own, except to say he’s not a socialist.

    Pull the fucking other one. This is Telford ffs…

  • Peter Beswick


    They are not raincoats they are jerkins and the vermin in your Ned has not gone unnoticed.

    I see what you did, got round the 911 embago and introduced a third block but if I remember rightly that fell down whilst the BBC were rewriting history.

    I think if war machines were there to keep the peace wars wouldn’t happen.

    I’ll consider your solution carefully but will wait until I hear what Putin has to say at the UN today, I think the US is going to be in for a shock which means Cameron will jump.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    What ‘random bloke’ with no friends after over a year, NEVER seen him come in with anyone or leave with anyone?

    Less unusual than you appear to think. He may be (a) really boring and no-one wants to talk to him, (b) gay, (c) clasping some deep personal tragedy inside him and living out a private nightmare, or (d) only there for the beer. To name but a few.

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