The Pregnant Woman: An Everyday Story from Palestine 159


Our corporate and state media deliberately fails to report what is happening daily in Palestine. This account from Reuters three days ago was not used in any British mainstream media:

JERUSALEM // Israeli police shot and killed a pregnant Palestinian woman and her teenage brother yesterday at a checkpoint near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, police and witnesses said.

Israeli police claimed the pair approached the vehicles-only lane at the Qalandiya military checkpoint and tried to carry out an attack. They said the woman was holding a knife and both she and the man walked rapidly towards police and security guards in a vehicles-only lane at the Qalandia checkpoint outside Jerusalem.

Alaa Soboh, a Palestinian bus driver who said he witnessed the incident, said the pair had appeared to be unfamiliar with crossing procedures and were swiftly challenged at the checkpoint.

“As soon as the two crossed, [Israeli forces] started screaming ‘Go back, go back’, and then they began shooting,” he said.

“The first one they shot was the girl, the boy tried to go backward, when they fired seven bullets at him.”

A witness told the Palestinian Maan News Agency that Israeli forces fired more than 15 rounds into the woman’s body.

The Palestinian Red Crescent said Israeli forces denied Palestinian paramedics access tothe woman for medical treatment, the agency reported.

The pair were identified as 24-year-old mother of two Maram Abu Ismail, and her 16-year-old brother Ibrahim Taha. The siblings were from the West Bank town of Qatuna.

The victims’ family, interviewed by Palestinian media, said that Maram was five months pregnant at the time of her death.

No Israelis were injured in the incident.

The military checkpoint where the two were killed is a main ­access point for Palestinians to cross from the occupied West Bank to Jerusalem and has been the site of a number of alleged, actual, and attempted attacks since October.

In the past six months, Israeli forces have killed at least 193 Palestinians, 130 of whom Israel said were assailants.

Many others were shot dead in clashes and protests.

* Reuters

Frankly I do not believe that the pregnant woman was walking towards the heavily armed soldiers openly wielding a knife from a distance. If she were attempting to stab a soldier, she would have concealed any knife, and not called attention by walking in the vehicle lane. Even if the account were true, I do not accept that a group of soldiers could not defend themselves against a heavily pregnant woman with a knife, spotted at a distance and approaching on foot, in any other way than by putting fifteen bullets into her, even if her sixteen year old brother was with her – and witnesses say he was backing away when he was himself shot.

The truth is that Palestinian lives simply do not matter. They did not matter to the Israeli soldiers who callously shot them dead rather than try to discover what was actually happening, and they do not matter to the British media who do not report this, yet find massive room for ludicrous accusations against British supporters of Palestine. Reuters tells us that 193 Palestinians have been killed in six months. These two will be added to the 130 whom Israel claim were assailants, a very large number of whom were in reality not. But even the Israeli figure admits Israel has killed 63 Palestinians who were not assailants, and many thousands more have had their homes destroyed to make way for yet more illegal Israeli settlers.

An everyday story for Palestinians. A terrible personal tragedy for the murdered woman, her murdered little brother, her unborn child and her surviving small children.

And here is the secret. The British media are frightened that you will care. That is why they do not tell you.


159 thoughts on “The Pregnant Woman: An Everyday Story from Palestine

  • BrianFujisan

    Craig… Our old Friend Mary And I Put up Video’s Posts on this many times,,, Long before the Murder ( Caught ) video came out….Coward Evil People

        • Ba'al Zevul

          Wondered where they went. Might the management consider another ‘Still Discussing’ category in which the daily or weekly penalties for being Palestinian can be recorded?

          • Ben Monad

            I’m afraid there is no cure for over-extension for the noobies without a clue, or the veterans with a bun-on about this or that. Imagine management in Scots gubmint.

  • Roger

    Here’s another one from last year

    Prominent Israeli settler runs over 16-year-old girl, then shoots her dead – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/prominent-israeli-settler/#sthash.PKq8LMHa.dpuf

    Settler runs over, shoots and kills 16-year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus BETHLEHEM (Ma‘an) 22 Nov – A prominent Israeli settler ran over a 16-year-old Palestinian girl and then shot her dead [on Sunday], saying that he believed she intended to carry out a stabbing attack at Huwarra checkpoint in the northern occupied West Bank district of Nablus, Israeli media reported. The Palestinian military liaison office identified the teenager as Ashraqat Taha Ahmad Qatanani from Nablus, and said they had notified her family of their daughter’s death. Israeli news site Ynet identified the man who ran over and shot Qatanani as Gershon Mesika, the former head of the “Samaria regional council,” which represents Israel’s illegal settlements in the northern West Bank. After running the girl over with his car and landing in a ditch, Mesika reportedly got out of his car and opened fire on the girl, alongside Israeli forces who also opened fire, Israeli media reported. An Israeli army spokesperson did not immediately respond when asked for comment. No Israelis were reported injured in the alleged attack. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/prominent-israeli-settler/#sthash.PKq8LMHa.dpuf

    Anywhere else, the guy would be in custody on a murder charge, although it doesn’t say if that has happened to the settler, his wiki page seems more interested in his involvement in massive corruption scandal than his murderous activities.

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      Roger, after such incidents of brutal, cold-blooded murder by an ubermensch who regards his victim as sub-human, and the great massacres by the Israeli Death Forces, the Zionists still have the unutterable gall to hiss and spit about ‘incitement’ among the Palestinians, as if the Palestinians should react to their barbarous mistreatment by crawling on their bellies to kiss the Israeli jack-boots, like a pack of Western politicians.

    • arsalan

      To Zionists if she was home sleeping in her bed she still has to die. Exterminating pregnant Palestinian women is key to their attempts to try and keep a Jewish majority in Palestine.

  • East Neuker

    As you have said before, any criticisms of the Israeli government, army or police actions against Palestinians, however justified those criticisms, will raise immediate howls of “Anti-Semitic” against the critic.
    This is being used as a shield by hard liners like Regev, the ambassador. It is also being used as a convenient means of attacking anyone (Corbyn for example) who has spoken up for the Palestinians.
    I suspect certain factions in the Labour Party are using it to try to “take back their party” from the majority of members. The arrogance of that is astonishing.
    The deep UK state sees it as a useful way to damage people they dislike, and to please the Americans.
    How can ordinary people best approach challenging this?

    • Shatnersrug

      As I’ve said else where it’s racism pure and simple to use the good name of Jewish folk and a shield and therefore tar them with the same brush as the foul deeds of a crazed apartheid state is racism pure and simple and if you do it, you’re a racist.

      We would not accept that to talk ill of Iddy Armin was racism agains the African race would we? And we would say That to hate Pol Pot was to hate all Asians.

      The guardian are racists, the Blairites are racists and the BBC are racists.

      It is normal Jewish people that are paying the price internationally for this outrage. And it is the Palatinians that pay the ultimate price for the imorral attempts to bury the cold evil facts.

  • Chris Rogers

    CM Sir,

    May I be the first of the many to attack you for posting this blatantly hostile article, which may upset the sensibilities, and cause irreparable psychological harm to numerous readers who are Zionists. This is probably one of the worst ‘anti-semitic’ attacks launched against Israel and the peace loving Zionists therein, as well as the Tories, Blairites and UK pro-Zionist establishment one has ever witnessed or been privy to read. Indeed, the fact remains the woman was wielding a knife of such a large magnitude that the entire nation state of Israel faced an existential threat, forcing the brave Zionist defenders to execute her before she could kill several million Zionists within Israel itself.

    (Apologies in advance for tarring any individual in Israel who is opposed to Zionism and the violence the Zionists inflict in the name of Jews and State of Israel, none of which is representative of international Jewry, which itself is endangered by these actions of zionist racists, and bloody murders – no better than NAZIS’s I’m afraid)

    • Jim

      ‘…international Jewry’? You’re not doing Craig any favours with stuff like this I’m afraid Chris. I know it’s an attempt at humour, but you still sound like a raving anti-Semite. Perhaps you are?

      • Chris Rogers

        Jim Sir,

        One does not engage in political correctness, or for that matter do I like referring to a persons religious background, regrettably, one can hardly say Roman Catholic, or Methodist as that would be wrong. What the fuck do you suggest, and please never infer of me, or accuse one of holding any racism. I’m an anti-Zionist, much as I hate the fucking Tories, but alas, you do not call me an anti-semite for hating the Tories do you, which is a political grouping, the same as Zionism is a bloody political movement – it is not a bloody religion, nor is it representative of millions it claims to represent, if only for the fact its founders were European Secularists.

        Anything else sir?

        • Jim

          I would respond if I could make any sense of your incoherent ranting Chris. But the use of idiotic tropes like ‘International Jewry’ makes you sound quite like Hitler. I’m surprised you aren’t able to see it, because any sane person can, very clearly.

  • Silvana

    It does recall the summer of 2014, ‘operation protective edge’ : Tshirts with the logo “one shots kills two”. The pregnant woman is a favourite target as well as the young boy as the future Palestinian male fighter.
    And the media discussin Jeremy Corbyn alleged antisemitism. Lawless world.

    • Chris Rogers

      Silvan,

      The word ‘hypocrisy’ and the UK MSM are one and the same, as witnessed by the witch hunt against those in the UK, and across Europe in general, who are trying desperately hard to prevent these daily horrors. And for our efforts, our Zionist friends and legion of supporters across the political spectrum have the audacity to call us ‘anti-semites’. Fuck them is all i’ll add as most are below contempt and indeed lower than vermin.

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      Silvana, there has from time to time in Israel been some dispute over books, speeches, and various injunctions by orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews where they declared killing civilians, even children and babies, of ‘the enemy’, to be not just permissible, but mitzvot, or good deeds. And the Israel Death Force is more and more dominated by religious fundamentalist and extremist elements.

  • fred

    I don’t see why a British newspaper would cover this story. First of all they would not be able to say they didn’t believe the official account as you did, they would only be able to publish what they got on the wire and they would be forced to also say that there has been a spate of stabbings of Israeli border guards lately or be open to accusations of bias.

    The death of two young Palestinians is a tragic event and should be seen as such, not as a stick to beat the British press with.

    • John Spencer-Davis

      Well, that would be a start, wouldn’t it? And they could comment on it, as CM has done – British media pundits are not known for being slow to assess official credibility and give decided opinions on all manner of matters.

      A pregnant woman and a 16-year old boy, brother and sister, shot and killed by a police force, and that is not newsworthy? Come on.

      • fred

        If it was a police officer, the paper couldn’t say for sure and if they made any accusations that turned out to be wrong heads would roll.

        • John Spencer-Davis

          The Reuters report says:

          “JERUSALEM // Israeli police shot and killed a pregnant Palestinian woman and her teenage brother yesterday at a checkpoint near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, police and witnesses said.”

          Israeli police claimed the pair approached the vehicles-only lane at the Qalandiya military checkpoint and tried to carry out an attack. They said the woman was holding a knife and both she and the man walked rapidly towards police and security guards in a vehicles-only lane at the Qalandia checkpoint outside Jerusalem.”

          I think that would protect the paper. Of course Reuters might be wrong, but on those grounds a paper could never report anything at all, in case it was inaccurate.

          • fred

            ‘The Reuters report says:

            “JERUSALEM // Israeli police shot and killed a pregnant Palestinian woman and her teenage brother yesterday at a checkpoint near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, police and witnesses said.”’

            But the investigation said the police fired into the air and a civilian security guard did the killing. A British newspaper would have to have solid evidence to say they were lying.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            Well and good, so there is a discrepancy between initial reports, and witness testimony, and the internal affairs investigation. Isn’t that in itself newsworthy? What solid evidence do you need? Witnesses contradict the police account in several important respects. Furthermore, the internal investigation says that the police shot at the Palestinians, not just up in the air, but that the bullets that actually struck them were in fact fired by civilian security guards. How likely does that sound?

            (What are civilian security guards in the company of armed Israeli police doing with guns out and firing at Palestinians while the police are trying to carry out an arrest?)

            The more you say, the more worthy of reportage this incident sounds.

          • fred

            “The more you say, the more worthy of reportage this incident sounds.”

            But as I have said, if the British media had reported it they would have had to publish the Israeli version of events which wouldn’t have done the Palestinians any favours.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            That does not mean that it is not worth publishing. And they would be able to publish the conflicting evidence which would permit people to make up their own minds where they believed the truth to lie.

        • Alex Birnie

          Fred, you need to be careful. If you contort any more, you’ll pull a muscle.

  • BrianFujisan

    Old Story

    Evil Cunts Chuck a Knife… Then kill… I have Said… Before Its Young Women…And Young Children Are the Main Targets here

    Can we have Our So Called Hero’s in to teach these fucking Bullying Genocidal Cunts How to treat Children.. Or Stand Against Real Men..Am Sick of this

  • RobG

    I’ve had great difficulty accessing this post this morning.

    Heavy traffic? or something more nefarious..?

    • Darth

      There was an outage at our service provider between about 10:00 am and 10:30 am. We are awaiting a status update on the reason.

      • Chris Rogers

        I know, I admonished Fred for his post, and it then was lost in the ether as a result of said outage, one of several over the weekend I hasten to add!!!!

      • John Spencer-Davis

        I could be completely off base and paranoid, but it does seem to me that the blog goes down more regularly when CM posts something on Israel. I would like to know what the reason was.

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      This “genocide” trope has been comprehensively demolished on this thread (mainly by me).

      In consequence, most posters now talk about massacres, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, etc – the reality of all of which can be argued for or against in legitimate debate.

      There are, unfortunately, still a couple on here who can’t let go of the “genocide” trope; they desperately seek to legitimise their use of the word by adding the adjective “slow”.

      I say to them : get serious. Pudding, over-egging of……Accept defeat.

      Yes, “MerkinScot” , I mean you.

      • laguerre

        Of course, it’s genocide by today’s meaning of the word. Not that I would take today’s meaning as correct, but that’s as it is. The Yazidis have been genocided according to the UN, when only a few thousand have been killed. The rest were forced to convert, or ethnicly cleansed (the Kurds themselves have also been going in for ethnic cleansing of Sunni Arabs, so they can hardly complain). Israel is deliberately trying to destroy Palestinian identity, which is a major part of genocide these days.

        I doin’t much care whether you think you have demolished “the genocide trope”.

        • lysias

          The international tribunal for war crimes in the former Yugoslavia has ruled that there was genocide at Srebrenica. If that was genocide, there has been a lot of genocide committed all over the world.

          • Shatnersrug

            The trouble with the world genocide is it doesn’t allow for a past tense – if you have an intention to expunge an entire race but only manage to kill 20,000 is that still genocide? Was it genocide? Or will it be again if you resume? Is it attempted genocide. Quite simply, the Israeli elite would prefer it if the Palestinians, if not all the muslims of the Middle East – with the exception if maybe the Saudi Royal family – would cease to exist.

          • bevin

            Precisely. And the resident apologist for all evil deeds actually did pirouettes, so excited was he that Karadzic had been sentenced to jail eternally by Mr Justice ‘Roo.
            In the real world these are “double standards” and the only question remaining is whether Habba’s motives are racist or those of a conformist authoritarian.
            As Shatnersrug put it the superannuated pedant in question couldnt demolish a custard pie,. Not without the help of Caterpillar.

          • Resident Dissident

            “And the resident apologist for all evil deeds ”

            Oh you mean like the Holodomor, the Gulags and I daresay Slobo and Karadzic’s antics

          • Mulga Mumblebrain

            lysias, you mean the NATO witch-hunt for former Yugoslavia, surely.

      • Chris Rogers

        Habbabkuk,

        You have a very high opinion of yourself, particularly given you seem to be the ‘self appointed’ arbiter on all and every issue on this website, an opinion nonetheless not shared by too many others I can assure. Indeed, I’m surprised you have never appeared on Mastermind given how you quickly command superior knowledge on all, and everything. Well done that man!

        Not are you now claiming you have dispatched the ‘genocide’ trope, evidently the combined IQ’s of Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein are no match for your own, you then wish to act as an apologist, and question posters abilities to understand what has been happening within Israel and Palestine since 1967, despite the fact that Israel’s own leading historical scholars acknowledge openly terns such as ‘ethnic cleansing’, which was built into late nineteenth century Jewish Zionism from its inception. Notice I’ve utilised the term ‘Jewish Zionism’, given European Christianity has a dark history about its own fundamentalist Zionism, one which resulted in countless slaughter during the Crusades and after – we are hardly innocent are we. But alas, Israel, oh Israel is always innocent. Funny that!!!

        One could go on, and whilst I’m opposed to being called an ‘anti-semite’ if I support justice for Palestine, if this is what racist Zionist desire to call me, its fine by me given the company I find myself in, namely all of the British Left, all self hating Jews, and many notable scholars, who unlike you, actually know what the fuck they are talking about.

        Now, please take your faux-leftwingism elsewhere, or at least have the decency to instruct us all that you are a Zionist and proud of the fact, for which at least you’d gain some respect. But an honest, unbiased arbiter you are not Sir!!!!!!!!!

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          Forgive me for not having read your post to the end but I wonder if you would be kind enough to enlighten me on something.

          You mention Messrs Chomsky and Finkelstein.

          Have they said or written that Israel has committed or is committing genocide?

    • Republicofscotland

      Merkin Scot.

      Habb has an aversion to the word “genocide” in a similar fashion to werewolves and silver bullets, or vampires and sunlight.

      Mention the “G” word and Habb, appears from his cave slabbering like Pavlov’s Dog. ?

      • lysias

        If it were ever determined that Israel has been committing genocide, then every signatory of the Genocide Convention, including the U.S. and the UK, would be obliged under the terms of the convention to do everything possible, including, if necessary, the use of military force, to stop the genocide.

        • lysias

          Which makes his glee over the court’s judgment against Karadzic quite puzzling.

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          That it has not already been so determined might perhaps indicate that no serious player believes in this “Israel is committing genocide” trope.

          Eg, not a single UN General Assembly Resolution.

          (NB – no veto power over UNGA Resolutions…..)

      • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

        Have Chomsky and Finkelstein ever said or written that Israel has committed or is committing genocide against the Palestinians?

        • Chris Rogers

          In the interests of fairness and impartiality, I’ll look into that matter, but I believe the term ‘slow genocide’ has been deployed, but again I certainly will not put words into peoples mouths – I’ll link in should I find source material to verify one way or the other, which is the least I can do – give me a day though as it’s nearly 4.00AM here where I am and I’m now tired.

  • Andy

    Freedland in the Guardian wrote:

    ”As for the notion that Israel’s right to exist is voided by the fact that it was born in what Palestinians mourn as the Naqba – their dispossession in 1948 – one does not have to be in denial of that fact to point out that the US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Argentina, Chile and countless others were hardly born through acts of immaculate conception. Those nations were forged in great bloodshed. Yet Israel alone is deemed to have its right to exist nullified by the circumstances of its birth.”

    Freedland believes killing Palestinians, including pregnant a woman, is justified because other nations have been ”forged in great bloodshed”.

    • John Spencer-Davis

      “Freedland believes killing Palestinians, including pregnant a woman, is justified because other nations have been ”forged in great bloodshed”.”

      I would be grateful if you could show that more explicitly. I am not sure what you are saying can be demonstrated, but I am quite willing to read further and better particulars.

      • Andy

        Israel, it’s creation, is very obviously an on going project, therefore Israel is being ”forged in great bloodshed”.

      • Shatnersrug

        Freedland deliberately attempts to blur acts off ancient history with an outrage of modem history that was committed in the supposed Age of Enlightenment after the worst war known to history.

        He also moves debate away from the current appalling and unjust situation by dragging up the past. The fact is Israel and Palastine could take a leaf from the Good Friday Agreement and settle on a comprehensive ceasefire.

      • bevin

        ““Freedland believes killing Palestinians, including pregnant a woman, is justified because other nations have been ”forged in great bloodshed”.”

        It seems to me that it is implicit, in what he has written and what is well known about the manner in which the indigenous peoples were eradicated from lands which the settlers desired.
        There is no excuse, more than five hundred years after 1492, for not saying of the centuries of heinous crimes committed against the First Nations of America, “Never Again!”
        Freedland, in his haste to exculpate the enormities daily carried out at checkpoints in Palestine, inadvertently allows the mask to slip. And we see, in the person of the man who recently came close to winning election as editor of The Guardian, the familiar face of Colonel Blimp’s evil twin, the unreconstructed racist imperial faunctionary.

          • bevin

            It is really rather flattering to have my own personal troll. Insulting though that it should be the proverbial one trick pony with such a transparent trick.

          • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

            Bevin

            You really gave yourself away when you expressed admiration for Pol Pot, didn’t you.

            Jim is doing us a service by reminding us from time to time.

          • Jim

            It’s not a trick Bevin old bean, you posted, approvingly, a link to Paul Craig Roberts’ insane opinion piece in favour of Pol Pot. It’s pretty cut and dried.

        • Mulga Mumblebrain

          bevin, the colonists in New England, as they set out to exterminate the Native Americans, specifically quoted the Torah/Old Testament and its exhortations to the Israelites to commit genocide against the Canaanites as Divine justification for their acts.

    • lysias

      Those other countries have tried to make up for their racist pasts and to treat all citizens equally. Not Israel.

      What does not have a right to exist is Israel as a self -proclaimed Jewish state. Let it cease to be a discriminatory state, and, as far as I am concerned, it can continue to exist.

      South Africa did not cease to exist. It only stopped being an apartheid state.

      • Lola Sincalir

        There are many non Jews living in Israel. And if you are so against Israel, I do hope that you have investigated everything that you use and consider when you into the Dr’s or hospitals. 99% of technology was invented in Israel. & Some of the major medical advances thanks to the Israelis.

        • bevin

          ” I do hope that you have investigated everything that you use and consider when you into the Dr’s or hospitals. 99% of technology was invented in Israel. & Some of the major medical advances thanks to the Israelis.”
          This is herrenvolk discourse to which I referred above. It generally includes a mention of Nobel prizes. Sheer racism, harmless enough except that there are those who have concluded that such evident superiority justifies the state of Israel doing whatever it likes in this insect filled world.

        • Dave Lawton

          Oh have they.What you mean is they rip off other peoples designs.Having worked in medical research for quite a number
          of years I have seen the ripoff left right and centre.I have seen patents taken out which is a direct copy from a electronics
          magazine.99% Don`t be ridiculous believing in Israeli propaganda.It`s what is called new nation syndrome.

      • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

        Have Chomsky or Finkelstein ever said or written that Israel has committed or is committing genocide against the Palestinians?

    • Herbie

      I saw that desperate attempt by Freedland to compare israel’s ongoing genocide to the European colonial legacy.

      A very risky move, but indicative of the shifting sands of the discourse, where now these Zionist supporters can no longer pretend and hide Israeli crimes.

      No.

      Now they’re having to fess up but excuse them by saying the Europeans did it too.

      What this discursive tactic also does though, is place Zionism very much at the heart of the European colonial legacy.

      QED, in other words, so far as the debate I was having recently with Israel is concerned.

  • Clive Hulett

    Lately I’ve come to think that expansionism – beyond the boundries of the West Bank and Gaza – is now the (hardly even covert) aim of Israel. The extermination of Palestinians like that of bothersome cockroaches serves little more than to allow the development and testing of Western weapons systems, it is certainly carried out by Israel with impunity. But I fear a greater purpose is dawning.

    • Chris Rogers

      Clive Hulett,

      The Zionist school of thought believes all Jews should reside in Israel, evidently its January 1967 borders would have difficulty housing and feeding 20 million plus Jews if all those with the Right of Return took up the offer, as such, and not desiring to upset the Blog host, we actually have something akin to German ‘Lebensraum’, particularly if global warming is taken into account, much of Israel being below sea level, so a rise of sea levels would erode much of its present landmass, whilst temperatures rises will make much of the ME uninhabitable anyway – so yes, Israeli policy is for a Greater Israel, which means taking land from its semite neighbours forcefully. And how do we know all this, because for the past 30 years Israel has proven it does not desire a peace accord with its neighbours, rather it desires to perpetuate continual conflict in the hope one day to expand its present post 1968 borders, which obviously include lands wrenched from Palestine and Syria, namely the Golan Heights.

      As such, perpetual war and stirring up anti-Jewish sentiment, be it real or unreal, suits our Zionists friends overall policy of a Greater Israel – facilitated of course by its lapdog, the USA. Ain’t geopolitics a bitch!!!!!!

      • lysias

        Lyndon Johnson offered Israel a military alliance. The reason Israel turned down the offer was that an alliance treaty would have required Israel to define its boundaries.

        • Chris Rogers

          Lysias,

          Whilst this is factually correct, after the Arab Israeli War of 1967, militarily speaking, Israel became a valuable tool in the USA’s armoury to defeat Arab Nationalism, this according to the US Archives, as such, no requirement for Israel to define borders given its given cart blanche in the region – although, nearly 40 years later, and with the power of AIPAC, its difficult to say if the dog wags the tail, or the tail ways the dog as far as the USA’s ME policy is concerned, particularly given most of the NeoCons happen to be Zionists.

    • Lola Sincalir

      So, the Palestinians carrying out suicide missions and so on, was what??? and truly I think IF the Israelis wanted to obliterate Palestine do you not think that they could ultimately do so??????

  • Doug Scorgie

    “…and many thousands more have had their homes destroyed to make way for yet more illegal Israeli settlers.”
    …………………………………………..

    You must be more accurate Craig. They are all Jewish Israeli settlers building Jewish only towns.

    There are no Arab Israeli settlers.

    And no, I’m not being pedantic.

    • lysias

      All too many of those Jewish settlers come from my country, the U.S. Where I live in the suburbs outside D.C., I occasionally have the unpleasant experience of seeing a car with a bumper sticker saying “Hebron” in Hebrew letters. Most people, certainly almost all non-Jews, can’t read it, but I happen to have studied Hebrew.

      To see how awful conditions in Hebron are, see the Channel 4 miniseries “The Promise”.

      • Ba'al Zevul

        Are you intentionally inviting Habbabcuk’s derision, Lysias? Clue 1, I can find ten cities called Hebron in the US. One is in MD, next to DC. All, probably, have Jewish citizens, most of whom read and write Hebrew, and are as fond as most Americans of asserting their emotional allegiance to their ultimate origins, sometimes in the appropriate language. (cf. Boston Irish). Clue 2: the presence of the Hebron bumper stickers in DC strongly suggests that the owners live there and not Israel. It costs a sodding fortune to ship a car from Haifa. I could go on, but there’s probably a queue.

        • lysias

          Hebron, Maryland is on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, far distant from the D.C. area and separated from it by the significant barrier of Chesapeake Bay.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            Nevertheless, it’s a hell of a lot nearer than Hebron, Israel.. Do not multiply hypotheses unnecessarily. I imagine a multiply-doctored alumnus of the dreaming spires will recognise that one.

          • lysias

            There would be no reason for a bumper sticker for a Hebron located in the United States to spell the place name in Hebrew letters. There happen to be an Orthodox Jewish synagogue and school within a few blocks of where I have seen this car or cars. It’s perfectly obvious that it is the Hebron in the Occupied Territories that is meant. And the fact that that terribly misruled place is celebrated in Hebrew letters in a bumper sticker signifies, to my mind, support for the awful misrule that Hebron, Palestine has now been suffering for years.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            Yes. It may well signify support for Israel. But that isn’t what you dragged it in to support, which was the allegation that substantial numbers of US Jews are becoming settlers in Israel. Anyway….

            http://i3.cpcache.com/product/1483066471/keep_calm_we_live_in_hebron_indiana_sticker.jpg?color=White&height=460&width=460&qv=90

            More to the point, your point could have been substantiated without blethering about bumper stickers. I can’t find a later figure for the US (+ Canada) than 2014, but in total around 30,000 diaspora Jews immigrated to Israel in 2015, so the North American contingent isn’t that significant.

            http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4605135,00.html

            Not that I can see why they’d want to. The bribe isn’t that good. Israel needs to whip up more FEAR.

            http://www.redressonline.com/2015/04/an-american-makes-aliyah-to-hell-in-israel/

            I am now going to have a nice wallow and release my heroically-suppressed chuckles at the idea of a PhD submitting such sloppy research to back a flawed argument.

        • Chris Rogers

          @Ba’al Zevul,

          I’m waiting for Habbabkuk to meander in and start having a dialogue about global warming, it’s likely impact on Israel’s post 68 borders, and where the heck Zioninsts, and anyone else for that matter, will live in the ME once temperatures start rising, as they are expected to do before 2050 – if models are to believed.

          Can’t help being an environmentalist, as well as a socialist I’m afraid, but such ‘real’ matters do impact greatly what is likely to pan out, excepting of course the slow genocide inflicted on the Palestinians, which is present Israeli State policy, a policy of stave and force the buggers out by economic means.

      • Lola Sincalir

        I cannot believe that I just read that you have the ‘unpleasant experience of seeing Hebron written in Hebrew.’ as a bumper sticker. If they are Jewish why oh why shouldn’t they be proud of where they come from. Your remark in England would be seen as out right racist.

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        “To see how awful conditions in Hebron are, see the Channel 4 miniseries “The Promise”.”
        ________________________

        I hadn’t realised one can receive Channel 4 in the suburbs of Washington DC…..

        • Lola Sincalir

          I am sure you are correct that conditions may be awful in Hebron. I shall ask my two Israeli friends tomorrow as they have recently been there. But as we know documentaries can be made to look like anything you want…

        • bevin

          “I hadn’t realised one can receive Channel 4 in the suburbs of Washington DC…..”
          There are many things that you haven’t realised, please don’t get start listing them.

        • Chris Rogers

          You can presently get C4 overseas usually via VPN, the BBC has cottoned on to the fact, and its now difficult to get iPlayer, but all UK broadcast material can be easily downloaded via Bittorrent via dedicated websites, and its bloody free, also means its advert free if its from Commercial TV.

    • Lola Sincalir

      The other side of the coin is that when Israel left the Gaza Strip, it left behind a complete town with schools hospitals etc and building materials for the Palestinians to continue building their homes. BUT NO< they used everything to build tunnels back into Israel. Why?????

    • Monteverdi

      Without being pedantic as they were not invited into the West Bank but are there illegally the correct definition is not ‘ Jewish-Israeli settlers ‘ but ‘ Jewish-Israeli squatters ‘ .

  • Monteverdi

    ” The British media are frightened that you will care . That is why they do not tell you ”
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    I totally agree with you Craig but as you now have correctly reached that conclusion you must logically ask yourself now why ” the British media are frightened that you will care ” and ” why they do not tell you ” ?
    Many of us years ago asked ourselves the same question did our research and came to a pretty obvious conclusion as to ‘ why ‘ ?
    Tragically you continue to refuse to do so defining it on your Blog as a ‘ no go ‘ area of scrutiny or discussion .
    Self-censorship is a slippery slope , an imprisonment of one’s own inquisitiveness and intellect ..

  • Israel

    I sat with an Arab friend yesterday and showed her your blog. She became really pissed off saying that its people like you who create the Palestinian sympathy monster (her words) that needs to be fed more and more as it gets bigger and bigger instead of feeding their need for a responsible leadership that will educate towards peace.
    You have no idea how much damage you do to Israelis such as myself and Palestinians who want to move forward to peace.
    As long as their is conflict there will be violence and neither I and certainly you don’t know what really happened at this roadblock. It also doesn’t really matter just as it doesn’t really matter each time a Palestinian stabs a Jew. That’s what conflict is. Conflict is bad and violent. Pointing it out incessantly is rather pointless – on both sides.
    What matters is how we educate our children to accept each others narratives and to accept each others connection to the common land which both peoples call home. What matters is building a generation on respect and acceptance rather than hate. That is what I struggle for in my society and what my Arab friends struggle for in theirs. They only wish you would get out of their way.
    How comfy for you to sit in your sofa far away and throw petrol on the fire.
    You dangerous pyromaniac..

    • John Spencer-Davis

      Was she upset by Craig Murray’s comments regarding the roadblock? It sounds like that was a particularly sore point.

    • Resident Dissident

      Well said – you will search this blog in vain for a mention of the recent Hamas suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem, but the fact that this conflict results in violence from both sides, or that despite the violence there are still decent people on both sides who are the conflict will be resolved is not something that you will hear.

      • craig Post author

        Err you won’t search in vain for a mention because you and Israel have mentioned it. The beauty of this blog is all sides can argue.

        • Israel

          Craig, I haven’t mentioned anything about bombings against Israelis. The only mention I made of attacks against Israeli’s is that they too don’t matter in this context. A man with a brain tumor doesn’t expect his doctor to be overly concerned about the headaches.
          i get that all these discussions make you feel like the knights of justice and that must all be very exciting for you all. But as I said previously, you’re so off the mark.

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          I think RD meant a mention from you, Craig… 🙂

    • Heiland

      I could scarcely believe I was reading such ridiculous nonsense. Beginning with “As long as their (sic) is conflict there will be violence and neither I and certainly you don’t know what really happened at this roadblock. It also doesn’t really matter..”
      and continuing with ” Conflict is bad and violent. Pointing it out incessantly is rather pointless – on both sides.”

      So let us not ask why there is conflict (a brutal and murderous occupation of Palestine), nor comment upon it (its ok for the racist murders to continue) let us build respect and acceptance (of the status quo?)

      As for sitting on sofas far away, isn’t that what the Israelis do as they watch yet another session of “mowing the grass” in Gaza?

    • Peter Jones

      Israel writes;-
      “You have no idea how much damage you do to Israelis such as myself and Palestinians who want to move forward to peace.
      As long as their is conflict there will be violence”
      (End of quote)

      The damage is done not by discussions on web-sites, but by injustices on the ground – everybody pursues “peace”, nobody pursues justice.
      So long as grievances are not addressed, so long as injustices are neglected there will be conflict. Justice removes conflict. There’s always a “peace process” in the Middle East, but never a justice process. When you deliver justice conflict dies, peace arrives.

      Address grievances, pursue justice, pursue equality, and peace follows in due course. A major key grievance in the Middle East, the original grievance was the expulsion of Palestinians from Palestine, so now natives of Palestine are scattered in refugee camps throughout the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan. The clue is in the name – Palestinians, thus their homeland is Palestine. UDHR Article 13 (ii) says “A person has the right to leave his country and to return to his country”

      The right to return to his country, to go home to his country is an undeniable right that attaches to every human on the planet, to you, to me, to everybody. But not to Palestinians? Why not? The excuse that the country is not called “Palestine” any longer is pure sophistry. For conflict to cease, justice and equality are needed, not sophistry and word-play.

      “What about Jews?” I hear someone cry. Well, what about them? They can stay if they want to live there, but live as equals not as masters. That’s what justice and equality looks like.

      abudina

      • Israel

        Peter, that’s great in theory but I don’t know how much you follow the news, the Middle East gets very complicated very fast.
        One of the reasons so many states in the Middle East have fallen apart is because they were never really countries in the first place. You people (Europeans) drew some lines in the sand and told people they should live together….as you are doing now. Problem is that is didn’t work then and it doesn’t work now. As soon as the crazy despots that were running these countries were toppled all hell broke loose because all the factions hated each other.
        So I suggest you guys (again, Europeans) should stop your patronistic meddling thinking that you decide where borders are drawn and who should live with who. This is a complicated and ancient conflict which will take time. There is no right or wrong side and there is no absolute justice or absolute truth in this world (sorry to burst a bubble – won’t mention Santa).

        • Ba'al Zevul

          As some may have noted in my avatar, I have a very long (and forked – but if you criticise it I am afraid you are forkist) tongue. This gives me a great capacity for distinguishing between linguistic nuances. Which suggests that ‘Israel’ today is not the same person as ‘Israel’ yesterday. And that both Israels are now punting the line that Israel is an earnest seeker after peace: that criticism of Israel is now illegitimate as it hinders the peace process, etc, etc. Ingenious, but very hard to reconcile with the proposed illegal annexation of the West Bank, the documented brutality and irresponsibilty of the IDF, and the other issues raised here, not least the systematic suppression of dissenting views. I’d add that I’ve seen this multiple-identity poster game before, and it sucks. I’d better yet again state that North Korea also sucks, to avoid the charge of singling poor little Israel (the country) out for criticism.

          • Israel

            Lol, whether I am or am not the same person you will never know but you, on the other hand, are the same paranoid dick

        • Republicofscotland

          “This is a complicated and ancient conflict which will take time. ”

          ________________

          Israel.

          Ancient? Pre-1948, Ben Gurion flooded Palestine with Jews, post 1948, they stole the land. Now I make that 68 years, unless my arithmetic has gone awry that isn’t ancient.

          You and your masters want to drag it back to time in memorial, to say “oh we lived here X amount of years ago” if that were the case half the world, is now squatting in lands that don’t belong to them, and the it all becomes historically implausible.

          • Israel

            “Flooded Palestine with Jews”??? what kind of expression is that? you’re referring to people you sick racist ignorant little man.
            As for your claim – How do you think the Arabs came upon Palestine? yes, they colonized it and our land was systematically taken from us and our numbers kept low until we finally had the power to take it back last century.
            1517: “the onslaught was initiated by Turkish troops led by Murad Bey, the deputy of the Sultan from Jerusalem. Jews were attacked, beaten and raped, and many were killed as their homes and businesses were looted and pillaged. Those who survived the calamity fled to Beirut and Jews only returned to Hebron 16 years later in 1533”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Hebron_attacks
            Want more examples or might you go and learn my history on your own?

          • Republicofscotland

            “1517: “the onslaught was initiated by Turkish troops led by Murad Bey, the deputy of the Sultan from Jerusalem. Jews were attacked, beaten and raped, and many were killed as their homes and businesses were looted and pillaged. Those who survived the calamity fled to Beirut and Jews only returned to Hebron 16 years later in 1533”

            _______________

            Israel.

            Yes the Jewish people were persecuted, so were black people, and indegenious American indians, and indigenous South Americans and Oceanic peoples.

            If however the above mentality of yours is anything to go by, then there’s no hope, harking back to the 15 hundreds, that the lands were stolen from the Jews is just pathetic, utterly pathetic, tbose other indigenous people suffer similar.

            By your twisted logic, half the world is squatting on lands that don’t belong to them, and ergo, the rightful owners should somehow feel bitter and betrayed that hundreds or thousands of years ago the Romans or Greeks or Turks in this case stole the lands from the rightful owners.

            Its an incredulous claim, one that, most people would laugh at. If that’s the basis for the current state if affairs regarding Israel and the squatting on stolen land, it doesn’t hold any water.

            Finally to get you to see the error of your ways. In your above paragraph swap out the Jewish people for Palestinian people and now who’s the Turks?

          • Israel

            Republic, by Ottoman law the Jews were limited from owning property (and from visiting their sacred sites – upon which the Muslims kindly built their own Mosques – occupation anybody?). I remind you that the Ottomans ruled Palestine up until the British mandate.
            By your logic the game is rigged against the oppressed minority who can make no claims while the Arabs who colonized and grabbed the whole of the Middle East by the power of the sword get to keep the prize.
            Nice.
            By the way, 500 years ain’t so long – I remind you that the African Americans, the Native Americans, the native Australians and many more are also still to this day paying the price for injustices perpetrated 300 and more years ago.

    • nevermind

      Children in Israel were once educated together until the Butcher of Sabra and Shatilla put an end to it.
      It is the only way Palestine will have a future, because old minds such as yours, israel, advocate training child soldiers, as much as Hamas is.
      You both should be disarmed and made to live together. jeez, building a wall of all things, what a devious idea that was.
      It did not work in China,Berlin, nor will it work along the US Mexican border, so what prat had this scurrilous idea we never now.
      Do you think that drilling for the resources belonging to Syria in the Golan is throwing petrol on the fire.

  • Monteverdi

    The last sentence of your blog Craig is both true and correct . Why then Craig can you not take the next logical step and ask yourself why the British media should shy away from such stories ? Who or what do they fear to censor themselves in this manner ?

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Do please let me know if you find one. Seems a bit odd that you can break a law without even a definition of what it is you are doing when you break it.

    • Chris Rogers

      Monteverdi,

      I’d not mind, but could the buggers, that is Regev et all, actually show me examples of ‘anti-Jewish hatred’ here in the UK, as far as I was concerned, my country, namely the United Kingdom, went to War with Germany to save itself, and Europe from a very nasty character – other forces were at play, specifically the maintenance of the balance of power within Europe, but the fact remains hundreds of thousands of left-wingers, trades unionists and leftist did not join the Military Service after 1938 to further the UK’s Imperial interests. And I know this because I was lucky enough to grow up with those that actually did the fighting, many being lifelong Socialists.

      It’s a witch hunt and a leftwing stitch-up and a very crass one at that.

    • Babushka

      A Game set up long ago, lucidly described in Shirley Hazzard’s Defeat of An Ideal, on the self-destruction of the UN, in which Roy Cohn is named on Team McCarthy within the UN.
      As the twig is bent…

  • Republicofscotland

    It’s a terrible atrocity, but it will continue until the US can be persuaded to stop bloody vetoing UN articles and resolutions against the Israeli actions.

    At present Israel has a carte blanche to kill as many Palestinians as it sees fit to do so. The hector known as the USA will allow it to do so.

    • Israel

      Look how many Assad is killing every day. His army is a fraction of what Israel’s army is. If Israel has a carte blanche to kill as many Palestinians as it sees fit to do so it obviously doesn’t see fit to kill so many.
      By the way, fun fact: over the past 100 years of conflict less than 100,000 Arabs have been killed in the Jewish-Arab conflict – including combatants, civilians and soldiers of Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian (and a few more) armies that participated in wars against Israel. Less than 100,000!!!
      In comparison. Since 2011, in just 5 years, over 100,000 people have been killed in the Syrian civil war.
      I served in the Israeli military and our orders were always of the highest moral standards. There will always be bullies, criminals mistakes and people who get too nervous too fast. But just look at the numbers. 63 non-assailants in 6 months out of how many encounters between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians? 600,000? 6 million? lets take the lower – 600,000, that would make it 0.01% of encounters between Palestinians and Israeli soldiers end in a death.
      I hope these calculations aren’t too cold for this audience. Every death is tragic to that we all agree.
      But the IDF in which I served, a military facing one of the most complex situations in the world certainly does a honorable job. The numbers speak for themselves. Hardly a carte blanche to kill as many Palestinians as it sees fit to do so
      Listening to Craig throwing around numbers is like watching an infomercial that tell me 8 of 10 men prefer Gillette. I expected more from this crowd.

      • Chris Rogers

        Israel,

        Do you for an instance believe any of the tripe you write and post here. Do you think for an instant that the extensive readership of this Blog lives in total ignorance at events in the ME, the instigators of said events and the results of said events, if only since 9/11?

        May I seriously suggest you take your tripe and opinion to a Blog that deals with Middle east Military matters and US Foreign Policy, a Blog hosted by and authored by a former US Army government advisor to the US Government on Middle east matters, and a former veteran of the Vietnam War, which hardly makes him a Liberal, or peace-monger.

        Heres the link to the Blog in question and good like in trying to post tripe their old bean, because you will be eviscerated and treated with the contempt you deserve, alas, they really are the experts, so I’ll leave that pleasure to them if you have the guts to exhibit your opinion on the Blog: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/

        • Israel

          Chris, I understand I’ve walked in on a private party of people who have no interest letting the facts confuse them, but nevertheless…
          Beside saying tripe over and again would you like to perhaps address the issues I raised?
          Given that a conflict is bad, people suffer and people are killed.
          What data supports that “Israel has a carte blanche to kill as many Palestinians as it sees fit to do so”?

          • Chris Rogers

            Which year shall we start with after 1973, although the early incursion into the Lebanon quickly springs to mind, post the Egypt-Israel Peace Accord.

            Of course, if I just confine myself to the USA to begin with, we’d fill most of the Blog.

            Or, if you’d like, we could discuss Post 9/11 ME and Israeli interference, culminating in your master trying to undermine the Iran-US rapprochement, which funnily is none too popular with your masters – although, if you fundamentally disagree with your masters, then I believe you are at the right place. Which is and which timeline shall we focus upon.

      • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

        Your figures come as a welcome blast of reality, Israel.

        You could also have mentioned how many Arabs have been killed by other Arabs in the mostly bloody dictatorships and lesser tyrannies that surround democratic Israel.

        You figures remind me a little of what I often have to repeat on here in response to those mindless comments of Israeli “genocide”, viz. : it is a strange “genocide” which see the population of the alleged target group increasing year in year.

        • Republicofscotland

          Habb.

          Diverting to Arab killing Arab, doesn’t , change anything, why would anyone believe figures posted by an alleged ex-IDF soldier.

          • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

            Hardly diverting, RoS – Israel was talking about Arabs killing Arabs in Syria, wasn’t he?

            Think before writing.

          • Republicofscotland

            Habb.

            Yes he too try on his whataboutary, god loves a trier, I’ll give him that . ?

      • bevin

        ” I expected more from this crowd.”
        O suspect that you didn’t. You have been insulting our intelligence since you got here. Why not go and try this ‘kind killer’ persona on some other audience.

        • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

          You – and many of your peers – have very little intelligence to insult.

        • Israel

          Bevin, don’t worry – I’ve been getting as good as I’m giving. Last time I felt this insulted I was trying to knock some sense into the Combat 18 crew…

          • Suhayl Saadi

            Interesting, ‘Israel’. Was Combat 18 an MI5 vehicle/’honeytrap’, or was that just a silly rumour? What d’you think?

            After all, it has been alleged that the British Army’s FRU worked closely with some Unionist terrorist groups in Northern Ireland, allegedly to project state terror with deniability.

            This opens up a potentially fascinating thematic area, an octopus, one might say, an organism with many very sticky limbs and suckers in many pots. The British establishment consists of deeply pickled imperialists.

            For example, one wonders why exactly the Moazzem Begg trial was stopped after all that public money, police resources, CPS work had been expended. Was it because MI6 were actively working with Jihadists to facilitate the presence and resourcing of fcertain groupings in Syria? What d’you think?

            Thanks.

        • Resident Dissident

          Don’t worry Israel Bevin is an old Marxist who has a “lets ignore the killing” type of persona in respect of the old Soviet Union – insults from that quarter are just like the proverbial water of a ducks back. This blog has a history of driving away people from the Ukraine and former Soviet Union who offer knowledgeable and first hand accounts that challenge their prevailing narrative – please don’t be similarly intimidated, if you have something of interest to say please say it there will always be some who appreciate it.

      • Republicofscotland

        Ooooh! Looks like I hit a nerve their Israel.

        “Fun fact” what kind of sick fun do you guys have, oh I remember pulling old sofas onto hillsides to watch a Israeli hightech airforce bomb unarmed civilians in homes schools and hospitals.

        Your “whataboutary” regarding Assad doesn’t cut it, Assad doesn’t have America as a financial backer and UN bully, to boot, Israel does. You sound rather proud of the “fun fact” that ONLY 100,000 have died, but then again that’s probably your IDF training and mentality kicking in.

        You make it all sound as though Israel is the victim here, that somehow after usurping and butchering the Palestinian people, post 1948, which still continues in illegal settlements and border crossing killings (mostly unjustified). That because decades have passed and the US is still your play ground bully ready to step in at a moments notice, that the Palestiniann lands are now legally yours. Theyre not, nor are the Golan Heights.

        Have you ever stopped to think that other nations recognize Israel, (167,I think at last count) not because they approve, but because, to disapprove would incur the wrath of American foreign policy.

        • Ba'al Zevul

          If he wants to talk about Arabs killing Arabs, fine. But this thread is about Israelis, our devoted, lol, allies and aspirants to EU membership, not only killing but ethnically cleansing, Arabs. The beacon of democracy in the Middle East which does not extend full rights to half its citizens*,and/or refuses to extend legally -mandated protections to the inhabitants of territory its army occupied, if you prefer. The country which is first in line for Western military technology and isn’t worried about passing it on to the Chinese. I could go on, and very well might.

          *estimated, end of this year. No wonder we’re pushing aliyah , eh?

        • Israel

          Republic, I see you’re not very good with reading comprehension. The point wasn’t Assad, the point was the relatively small number of Arabs killed in the past 100 years. Hardly a murderous regime…
          The Assad example was just to show what a crappy military can do if it wants to do some killing – imagine what Israel would do if it actually wanted casualties.
          Hope I managed to simplify a little for you…

          • Republicofscotland

            Israel.

            Oh I get the picture alright, maybe, the low death rate if can call 100,000 low, was partly down to WWI when the British tricked the Arabs into fighting the Ottoman empire. Of course back then Balfour promised you Palestine didn’t he? A kind of 1st party promising a 2nd party, lands that belong to a 3rd party.

            Don’t get me wrong I’m not greatly enamoured about Arabs in general, but, you guys, snuck into Palestine on trains , albeit on many occasions to flee perescution from the Nazi’s, which I understand. But to then violently usurp the Palestinian peoples lands, killing many in the process, and declare the land as rightfully yours, well is it any wonder, there are feeling of animosity in the region.

            Fast forward 68 years and you still haven’t managed to broker some sort of peaceful coexistence, and to boot you’re still stealing land that don’t belong to you.

            Yet here you are bitching and whining that the Arab world opposes Israel, tell me have you done anything to abate their views of Israel?

      • nevermind

        He’s is not killing anybody on the Golan heights, yet, but he’s feeding Israeli hospitals with IS fighters who are willingly supporting the Zionist land and resource steal and effort there.

    • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

      RoS

      I don’t know what a “UN article” is but I do know enough about the UN to be able to say that no one can “veto” a UN General Assembly Resolution.

      • Republicofscotland

        UN Resolutions against Israel Vetoed by US
        from September, 1972 to May, 1990

        1. ….condemned Israel’s attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria…”
        2. ….affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and
        equal protections…”
        3. …condemned Israel’s air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of
        innocent civilians…”
        4. ….called for self-determination of Palestinian people…”
        5. ….deplored Israel’s altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an
        international city by most world nations
        and the United Nations…”
        6. ….affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people…”
        7. ….endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people…”
        8. ….demanded Israel’s withdrawal from the Golan Heights…”
        9. ….condemned Israel’s mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza
        Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations…”
        10. ….condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram
        al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem…”
        11. ….urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw
        from its invasion of Lebanon…”
        12. ….urged sanctions against Israel if it did not
        13. .withdraw from its invasion of Beirut…”
        14. ….urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation
        of Lebanon…”
        15. ….condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and
        Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace…”
        16. ….deplores Israel’s brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal…”
        17. ….condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli ‘Iron Fist’
        policy of repression….”
        18. ….denounced Israel’s violation of human rights in the occupied territories…”
        19. ….deplored Israel’s violence in southern Lebanon…”
        20. ….deplored Israel’s activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity
        of Muslim holy sites…”
        21. ….condemned Israel’s hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane…”
        22. ….deplored Israel’s attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the
        civilian population of Lebanon…”
        23. ….called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the
        rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a
        leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations…”
        24. ….urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel’s shooting of civilians,
        called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN
        auspices…”
        25. ….condemned Israel’s… incursion into Lebanon…”
        26. ….deplored Israel’s… commando raids on Lebanon…”
        27. ….deplored Israel’s repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the
        human rights of the Palestinians…”
        28. ….deplored Israel’s violation of the human rights of the Palestinians…”
        29. ….demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and
        allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel’s crackdown on the Palestinian intifada…”
        30. …called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands…”

        Source. (Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions, 1998 pages 192 – 194).

        • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

          Can’t you read, RoS?

          I said UN General Assembly Resolutions; your list refers to UN Security Council Resolutions.

          The former cannot be vetoed by anyone (despite your claim to the contrary).

          • Republicofscotland

            Habb.

            Oh I do apologise, so I take those ones don’t count then, silly me.

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        To fair to the UN.

        UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992

        “1. Resolution 106: “… ‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid”
        2. Resolution 111: “…’condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people”
        3. Resolution 127: “…’recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem”
        4. Resolution 162: “…’urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions”
        5. Resolution 171: “…determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria”
        6. Resolution 228: “…’censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then
        under Jordanian control”
        7. Resolution 237: “…’urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees”
        8. Resolution 248: “… ‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan”
        9. Resolution 250: “… ‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem”
        10. Resolution 251: “… ‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in
        defiance of Resolution 250”
        11. Resolution 252: “…’declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital”
        12. Resolution 256: “… ‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation””
        13. Resolution 259: “…’deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation”
        14. Resolution 262: “…’condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport”
        15. Resolution 265: “… ‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan”
        16. Resolution 267: “…’censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status
        of Jerusalem”
        17. Resolution 270: “…’condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon”
        18. Resolution 271: “…’condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem”
        19. Resolution 279: “…’demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon”
        20. Resolution 280: “….’condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon”
        21. Resolution 285: “…’demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon”
        22. Resolution 298: “…’deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem”
        23. Resolution 313: “…’demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon”
        24. Resolution 316: “…’condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon”
        25. Resolution 317: “…’deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon”
        26. Resolution 332: “…’condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon”
        27. Resolution 337: “…’condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty”
        28. Resolution 347: “…’condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon”
        29. Resolution 425: “…’calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon”
        30. Resolution 427: “…’calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
        31. Resolution 444: “…’deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces”
        32. Resolution 446: “…’determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’
        to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention”
        33. Resolution 450: “…’calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon”
        34. Resolution 452: “…’calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories”
        35. Resolution 465: “…’deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist
        Israel’s settlements program”
        36. Resolution 467: “…’strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon”
        37. Resolution 468: “…’calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors
        and a judge and to facilitate their return”
        38. Resolution 469: “…’strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not
        to deport Palestinians”
        39. Resolution 471: “… ‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth
        Geneva Convention”
        40. Resolution 476: “… ‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claims to Jerusalem are ‘null and void'”
        41. Resolution 478: “…’censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem
        in its ‘Basic Law'”
        42. Resolution 484: “…’declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian
        mayors”
        43. Resolution 487: “…’strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility”
        44. Resolution 497: “…’decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and
        void’ and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith”
        45. Resolution 498: “…’calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon”
        46. Resolution 501: “…’calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops”
        47. Resolution 509: “…’demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally
        from Lebanon”
        48. Resolution 515: “…’demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to
        be brought in”
        49. Resolution 517: “…’censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that
        Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon”
        50. Resolution 518: “…’demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon”
        51. Resolution 520: “…’condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut”
        52. Resolution 573: “…’condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO
        headquarters
        53. Resolution 587: “…’takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from
        Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw”
        54. Resolution 592: “…’strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit
        University by Israeli troops”
        55. Resolution 605: “…’strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human
        rights of Palestinians
        56. Resolution 607: “…’calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to
        abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
        57. Resolution 608: “…’deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported
        Palestinian civilians”
        58. Resolution 636: “…’deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of
        Palestinian civilians
        59. Resolution 641: “…’deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians
        60. Resolution 672: “…’condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram
        al-Sharif/Temple Mount
        61. Resolution 673: “…’deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
        62. Resolution 681: “…’deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
        63. Resolution 694: “…’deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure
        their safe and immediate return
        64. Resolution 726: “…’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians
        65. Resolution 799: “…’strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for
        their immediate return.
        (Former Congressman Paul Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions: Facing the Facts about the U.S.
        Israeli Relationship, 1998. Pages 188 – 192. These the 65 Resolutions passed against Israel
        are more than all the Resolutions passed against all other countries combined).”

  • Lola Sincalir

    Interesting that it is never reported that Palatine was daily inflicting rocket attacks etc on Israel. And how about saying then, that the Israeli hospitals a quite full of palestinians being treated for all sorts. Though I do not condone the happening at the check point.

    • Chris Rogers

      Lola,

      I thought the Iron Dome Missile Defense Shield deployed at great expense to the US and Israeli public purse was supposed to protect Israelis close to the Palestinian non-occupied lands from the odd mortar and rocket attack – these weapons being extremely low tech and inaccurate, with quite a low casualty rate – I think more being killed in daily traffic accidents than by any low tech bombardment ( I believe our colleague Habbabkuk will correct me here if I’m wrong with these figures.)

      However, most posters are aware of this, and most will condemn the indiscriminate killing of anyone, be that Palestinians or Israeli’s.

      But, lest we forget, fortress Israel is the most heavily armed nation within the Middle east, with the highest number of tanks, mobile artillery, aircraft and helicopters at its disposal, all backed up by US arms and munitions stock piled within Israel. Oh, and it has a nuclear capability that its quite willing to use if an existential threat were to present itself, of which, the Palestinian mortar and rocket attacks certainly does not constitute.

      Perhaps if the Palestinians were treated as equals and a Peace Accord signed such outrages would not occur, but alas Isreals present leadership seems determined to blame its victims and hold off on any Peace Accord indefinitely. Obviously, the Israeli’s themselves could elect politicians committed to Peace and a just settlement for all involved in this intractable issue, regrettably there is much ‘talk the talk’, but little ‘walk the walk’.

      What would your advice be, for obviously the IDF could go in again and kill 100,000 of the buggers, thus stoking up more understandable hatred, or your elected politicians could end the strife tomorrow, given the Palestinian leadership, and the Arab World in general are agreeable to the Two State solution that has been on the table for 30 years.

    • nevermind

      yes Lola, the fear of unguided rockets is real, you never know whether they blow up on the launcher, land in the sea or hit an innocent bystander, what is worth is the fear these simple rockets cause in the political leadership and how they use these simple devices to spread horro and terror amongst those who immigrated to Israel.

      Thanks for admitting that the hospitals are full of wounded Palestinians, so are your prisons, many of them children who are being kept away from their parents for days on end, and for what? for running away from the IDF fearing to be blamed for stone throwing.

  • Lola Sincalir

    All I can say is that there are so many ignorant writers on here it defies belief. And interesting how those ignoramuses cherry pick their arguments.

    • Chris Rogers

      I note the arbiter of what constitutes and does not constitute anti-semitism is at it again, now doubt after having a chat with his good colleagues Freedland, Cohan, Mann and Wallis-Simons.

      Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with this Poem again Habb, which is quite apt for such a censorious individual like yourself who hides in the shadows: http://hmd.org.uk/resources/poetry/first-they-came-pastor-martin-niemoller

      And full text, as would not desire to make a Naz error would I!!!
      First they came for the Communists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Communist
      Then they came for the Socialists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Socialist
      Then they came for the trade unionists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a trade unionist
      Then they came for the Jews
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Jew
      Then they came for me
      And there was no one left
      To speak out for me

    • Ba'al Zevul

      Tell you what, Lola. When you start acknowledging the significant contribution Palestinians have made to Israel, such as, say, cleaning its swimming pools, building its settlements and infrastructure, freely providing firewood from their olive groves to entertain the settlers, and supplying valuable target practice for the IDF, then you might have demonstrated a point about cherrypicking. Until then I don’t expect you to defend Palestinians: don’t expect me or anyone like me to defend Israelis. Fair? Or would it be antisemitic even to suggest this?

      Exceptionalist.

    • Chris Rogers

      Lola,

      By the way, Palatine was the name of a compilation album released by Factory Records in 1992 in the UK, among the bands represented are a fair few that support Palestinian causes, in which case, are they banned from being played in Israel for fear of radio stations being accused of being anti-semitic?

  • Sami

    The mainstream media is now almost entirely controlled by the patrons of Israel..

    • arsalan

      If the Israeli Police did release the video Zionists would accuse the Israeli Police of being Anti-semites and self hating Jews.
      As they do with Israeli soldiers who dare to admit what they did in anyway that doesn’t justify their own actions.

  • arsalan

    This is nothing unusual. Zionist say the thing that they fear most is the demographic threat. They expelled or exterminated 80% of all Palestinians so Israel could be both “democratic and Jewish”. And now they target pregnant Palestinians to make sure they don’t give birth to things which will stop Israel being both “Jewish and democratic”.

  • John Ramsay

    I would like to post the link to the original Reuters report but cannot find it anywhere. Does anybody have the relevant URL please?

    • John Spencer-Davis

      I could not find it either, I am not sure it is on line. I have had to rely on secondary sources.

Comments are closed.