The West and Karimov’s Anti-Terrorism Charade 204


clintonkarimov

Hillary Clinton and John Kerry courted Islam Karimov, Uzbekistan’s brutal dictator, every bit as assiduously as George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld.

kerrykarimov2

The west is interested in gas, gold and uranium, but is still more entranced by the allure of the false gold of Uzbekistan’s “successful” anti-terrorism strategy. Karimov was courted as the strong man who held Central Asia against Islamic fundamentalism. His methods – imprisoning, torturing and killing anybody who appeared religious – were viewed as admirable. That all reputable sources acknowledge that 10,000 people are imprisoned solely for their political and religious beliefs did not matter. That young men can be imprisoned or “disappeared” solely for growing a beard, or for praying five times a day, was viewed as “effective”.

The truth is that western governments wished they could do the same thing. The very first words Karimov ever spoke to me were to congratulate me on the fact that Blair had just instituted detention without charge for terrorism suspects – a prime example of the effect abroad of western abandonment of civil liberties.

But of course banning legitimate religious expression does not halt extremism, it creates extremism through frustration. That is why there are so many Uzbeks fighting with ISIS or the IMU in Afghanistan, why it was Uzbeks who blew up Istanbul airport. Unreasonable repression creates terrorism, which is just the effect of the Prevent programme in the UK – or banning the burkini in France.

Western politicians’ idealisation of Karimov shows the attraction to politicians of the idea of absolute power, and the simplicity of their approach to the complex issues being faced across the globe. The destruction of liberty is not the answer.


204 thoughts on “The West and Karimov’s Anti-Terrorism Charade

1 2
  • Martinned

    It’s starting to look more and more like the so-far-to-the-left-that-they-don’t-have-to-worry-about-ever-being-in-power left criticise the government of the day when they intervene to do something about some brutal dictator, but just as easily when they don’t. Which is it? Should we engage with Karimov/Ghaddafi/Saddam/Assad/Al-Sisi, or overthrow them?

    • Republicofscotland

      We engage with them, when it suits us (West) to do so, and we overthrow them, also when it suits us to do so. In between, we turn a blind eye to their repressive regimes, again because it suits us to do so.

      Meanwhile the indigenous people almost always suffer, morals and ethics don’t come into it, HRW and Amnesty International, can only shout so loud.

      • Alan

        If only you grasped the fact that indigenous people have been stomped on since Christianity began, instead of you just being so concerned about your own particular indigenous people.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Alan September 2, 2016 at 21:35
          ‘If only you grasped the fact that indigenous people have been stomped on since Christianity began, instead of you just being so concerned about your own particular indigenous people.’

          Not really much we can do about Roman Emperors feeding Christians to lions now, is there? But we can do something, even if it is only to protest, against illegal ‘Regime Change’ wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria, and against the bombardments of Gaza, Yemen etc., or ‘Extraordinary Rendition’ and torture by our ‘Civilised’ Exceptionist US ‘Allies’.

        • Paul Barbara

          @ Alan September 3, 2016 at 07:42
          “Not really much we can do about Roman Emperors feeding Christians to lions now, is there?”
          ‘I was actually referring to all the indigenous people who have been exterminated by Christians in their efforts to “convert” them.’

          Not only exterminated, but enslaved, plundered and brutalised – couldn’t agree more. I’ve been involved in Human Rights and Solidarity campaigns since the early ’70’s.

      • Martinned

        Well, that at least has the consistency of a policy that exists for the benefit consistently for our benefit. Nothing is more dangerous than a giant with an unpredictable foreign policy.

      • Martinned

        Well, that at least has the consistency of a policy that exists consistently for our benefit. Nothing is more dangerous than a giant with an unpredictable foreign policy.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Martinned,

      You have just come up in my estimation…though I never thought you were thick…is it O.K. if I use some of what you just wrote to illustrate what I believe (I could of course be wrong).

      You wrote – “It’s starting to look more and more like the so-far-to-the-left-that-they-don’t-have-to-worry-about-ever-being-in-power left”
      I added

      are in Power and they don’t have a clue what to do.

      I could illustrate it with the real history of the Neocons for example, but I am not quite sure you are ready for that yet. I do not know if you are male or female…but I am almost certain – you are a lot younger than me…

      If you are a Teenager – I can not but applaud –

      Good Effort.

      Craig also wrote this one liner…

      ” His methods – imprisoning, torturing and killing anybody who appeared religious – were viewed as admirable. ”

      That sentence is full of passion. I have read Craig’s book – “Murder in Samarkand”

      It’s a page turner – very exciting..you can’t put it down – well that was my experience – I bought it from Amazon. Craig might have got about 5p of what I paid Amazon – if he was lucky.

      I read it in The Maldives when it was stormy.

      Just after I got home I did this video of Craig Murray in Westminster at extremely short notice and was amazed that it worked.

      I still haven’t met him.

      “Craig Murray – Torture 1 of 7”

      Uploaded on Apr 28, 2009

      Craig Murray, former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Provides Evidence on UK Government Complicity in Torture.

      http://www.parliament.uk

      UN Convention Against Torture

      Joint Committee on Human Rights

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF9spgagSHI

      Tony

    • Republicofscotland

      Ken.

      “Uzbek president Islam Karimov is said to have died, leaving no obvious successor to lead central Asian country.”

      “Turkey’s prime minister, Binali Yıldırım, revealed the news in a televised meeting with his cabinet, saying: “We send our condolences and share the pain of the Uzbek people.”

      “Three diplomatic sources also told Reuters he was dead, but Uzbek officials have said only that Karimov is gravely ill. ”

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/uzbekistan-president-islam-karimov-dead-illness-a7221366.html

      Is he dead ? And if so why not admit it, stalling for time possibly?

  • Merkin Scot

    Just have to face it Craig, until Clinton stops being ‘guided’ by AIPAC there is no chance of her doing the right thing.
    Obama sounded reasonable until he found out that if he ‘really’ wanted to be President he would have to do as he was told.

      • Paul Barbara

        @ Martinned September 3, 2016 at 13:16
        ‘Wait, the J**ish conspiracy is after the poor people of Uzbekistan too? Why?’

        The same reason Sharon was a bosom buddy of Karimov – I believe Sharon called Uzbekistan a ‘dagger in the heart of Islam’.
        I believe I got both bits of info from Craig’s ‘Murder in Samarkand’, but I’m not sure about the second bit.

        Amazing how the ‘Jihadis’ leave Uzbekistan alone, as well as leaving Israel alone…

    • K Crosby

      Aipac is a proxy, not a lobby.

      PS would someone provide a list of words that the Craig bowdleriser bowdlerises (in a suitably bowdlerised manner) please?

    • Republicofscotland

      Merkin Scot.

      What do me mean by “guided” Clinton’s a hawk, she’s doing it because she’s well paid to do so by her handlers, which includes the powerful J**ish lobby.

      I doubt there’s even a smidgen of political will at the Whitehouse, to anything notable for the people of America. Robert Reich who served under the last Clinton in the Oval office, said that very thing.

  • Alcyone

    Yes, Sky has just reported that the Uzbek Govt, whoever that is, has reported that Karimov dead, finally!

  • RobG

    I know nothing about Uzbekistan beyond what I’ve read in your book, Craig.

    The courting of Karimov by the West sounds like a re-run of dear old Ceausescu in Romania. Margaret Thatcher and many other western leaders feted Nicolae Ceausescu. The Queen even gave him a Knighthood, because although Romania was then a ‘communist’ country, Ceausescu hated the Soviet Union and so became a favourite of the West. One British politician, David Steel, gave a black labrador puppy to Ceausescu as a gift. Ceausescu named the puppy Corbu and loved it so much that he made it a colonel in the Romanian Army. The dog could often be seen being driven around Bucharest in its own limousine, complete with motorcade. Corbu lacked for nothing. The Romanian ambassador in London was tasked to go to Sainsburys every week to buy Corbu’s favourite brand of dog biscuits, which were then flown back to Romania in the diplomatic bag.

    I’ve no doubt there was equivalent madness in Uzbekistan with Karimov.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Of course, governments of the day only ever intervene in the affairs of other nations from the noblest of motives and out of the goodness of their hearts. They are therefore above criticism. They also refrain from intervening for the same reasons, therefore no malevolent lefties (or anybody else) should ever be so vulgar and ill-intentioned as to question their positions on these matters.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    Craig,

    Great post – but how do you know it was “Uzbeks who blew up Istanbul airport?”

    I’ve been away a lot, and had already largely lost interest in these Terrorist Attacks…but I seem to recall something rather strange about the photography of this one too.

    You see, Terrorist attacks are done for real specific reasons – basically to Terrorise people.

    So far as the people who are in this business of pulling off “Terrorist attacks”, it doesn’t really matter to them – whether its real – they kill lots of innocent people – which they undoubtedly sometimes do – or stage the entire thing….

    Now you may think – why the hell would any Terrorists – want to stage a Terrorist attack – rather than doing it for real?

    Its quite obvious they are all psychos so why sometimes use fake or no blood?

    So far as the vast majority of people are concerned – they can’t tell the difference and believe everything they read in the newspapers and see on TV.

    There are of course potential advantages in faking it – just in case they get got in the act by an honest policeman.

    My Grandson was absolutely great on holiday. Have you got any Grandchildren yet?

    Tony

    • Tony_0pmoc

      I have just noticed Craig’s previous post.

      I held my Mum’s hand as she went straight to heaven.

      If anyone got there she did.

      She was 86 – otherwise much the same story.

      Tony

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Karimov’s been karidov…

    Did our politicians idealise him? I think they knew in detail what a complete murdering cunt he was, regarded him as a useful standard of comparison while happily lowering their own standards – not even they could summon up the horrors he could* – and promoted him nevertheless, as to admit they would even consider dealing with a truthful representation of the man would have damned them.

    Blair in office was particularly supportive, and not just in ignoring ambassadors with consciences. George Monbiot went into some detail in 2003:
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/oct/28/foreignpolicy.usa

    While we must be extremely cautious in assigning Blair any good qualities whatever, I have yet to find any report of his adding Karimov to his income stream after he left government. A dictator too far? Or maybe he just wasn’t invited.

    * for their own people, at any rate. The moral difference was rather vaguer in Iraq.

  • Alcyone

    Say what you will, it is We the People who happily go along calling it the Ministry of Defence, when it is clearly involved in Offence. Admit it, we are fools and we won’t change, inwardly. Yet, we expect outward change. Doubly fools or simply a content Type Zero Global Civilisation, medieval man.

    Now let’s go get drunk, stoned, pray five-times-a-day or once-a-week to the One God or three million or read a lovely story-book or whatever your escape is. FACT is we don’t want to live seriously. How many people will go to sleep hungry tonight around the world. How many people don’t have clean drinking water?

    Craig, we can’t destroy liberty when we don’t have it. One thing I was touched by in the Brexit debates were younger people looking at the problems of a rather poor world. And please there is nothing noble about man-made religions. We’ve only just arrived on this blue planet. It’s only 2016 or 5016 or 1416 when the planet has been around for billions of years.

    Point: Can we be free outwardly, when we not free inwardly, psychologically?

    • Martinned

      Yup, I’m surprised the UK hasn’t re-conquered Ireland yet. Why wage war in faraway places when there is so much closer stuff to conquer?

      • Republicofscotland

        Wel, I suppose it down to the Republic of Ireland, now wise to the ways of perfidious albion.

        Old HRH Droopy Chops, visited the RoP in 2011, the first time a British monarch had set foot in RoP since 1911. Mary McAleese, was the unfortunate president, who had to grin and bear it.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    I understand some of the techniques they use, what I completely fail to understand is why they do it.

    Does having Enormous Amounts of Personal MONEY and POWER do something really exciting to the inner cores of Their Brains?

    If you have like a Million Pounds of disposable income each year – or a Million times that amount…

    wtf do you spend it on to be happy…How many Ferraris and hookers and enormous yachts do you want??

    Do they make you happy??

    Or are you a Malthusian (or related)?

    A total Religious Maniac – Determined to impoverish your own people – your own indigenous tribe – where you occasionally live…whilst bombing the fck out of the rest of the world – and don’t even nick their stuff….???

    I personally find you very elite people extremely strange.

    Can someone provide some explanations – and don’t go into all this satanic nonsense – though it seems they might do that too…???

    wtf was that coming out of a Swiss Tunnel?

    Jesus – you guys are not very nice – though I thought your Paris performance was a slightly brighter shade of dire. Not as Good as Black Sabbath in 1970 though. Even their photography was better.

    I saw them in Manchester. They come from Birmingham.

    “Black Sabbath – “War Pigs” Live Paris 1970″

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3b6SGoN6dA

    Tony

    • RobG

      Tony, I too have never been able to figure out the absolute obsession for money that consumes a large part of the human race. What people will do to obtain money – to the detriment of everything else – is quite breathtaking.

      Maybe the good folks on this board will be able to provide some links to thoughtful articles about this subject.

      • Alan

        Yes! Such people are not only clueless, but are destined to a rude awakening some day in their future.

      • Alan

        Indeed Mick, you are so right. Look how haunted he looks in every photograph. May he live to a ripe old age haunted by his own demons.

    • John A

      Did you see Black Sabbath at Belle Vue? I saw them there and it must have been around about 1970. Great except for the mandatory and tedious drum solo that seemed to go on forever and ever.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Even hated Hillary never mentioned Karimov in her book, Hard Choices, only the importance of getting Uzbekistan on board the Northern Supply Network for vitally supplying the West’s forces in Afghanistan.

  • Anon1

    Had the West ostracised the Karimov regime and imposed sanctions against it, it would have become one of the darling regimes of the far-left on here. All its crimes would have been ignored/denied/excused. Boilings alive would be Nato propaganda against one of the last few free and independent nations standing against Western imperialism. Putin’s support for the regime would be entirely understandable, justifiable and necessary to counter Western aggression. Karimov would be a hero. Bevin would be singing his praises! And excusing his crimes. The cotton industry raised the country from poverty. The dictator was a benign one, raising the literacy levels and provisioning education and healthcare for all, just like it said in the newspapers. Andijan was a Western-backed…. etc…. etc….

    • glenn_uk

      Got any evidence for that – examples of a lefty-lionised dictator who was anywhere near as bad as Karimov?

      • bevin

        Glenn don’t confuse the poor fellow. He has no idea what evidence is.
        Lies, smears and insults are his thing.

        • glenn_uk

          I’d like to get a bit of honesty out of Anon1. Buoyed with success from Brexit, I wondered – hoped – that examining some basic prejudices Anon1 holds might prove worthwhile.

      • Loony

        There is no shortage of people comparable to Karimov – mostly they are not lionized they are simply of no interest to the western chattering classes.

        For examples try Teodoro Obiang, Yahya Jammeh, Paul Kigame, Idris Deby,and Omar Al-Bashir,

        …and of course if you want an example that exactly fits your request for a lefty lionized dictator comparable to Karimov why step forward one Robert Mugabe.

        Looking ahead to the future you can always try to imagine what a Hillary Clinton presidency may look like.

        • glenn_uk

          Loony, you completely misread this entire conversation – sorry. Anon1 posited that even someone as filthy as Karimov would have been hailed by lefties, if he had been an Official Enemy of the West. Read it please – it’s just above.

          I don’t think anyone on the “left” likes Mugabe since he went insane either.

          Do you know any leftie who actually likes La Clinton, other than in comparison with the outright fascist she’s running against?

          • Loony

            Glenn – Why it was only a couple of weeks ago that Mr. Murray invented his own agricultural statistics for Zimbabwe and claimed that reliance on actual statistics was to support a “racist myth” There is no shortage of evidence to support the argument that Mugabe and his economically destructive policies continue to attract the support of western liberals.

            You manage to prove my point for me. There is no evidence at all that Trump is a fascist. However by labeling him a fascist immediately prior to comparing him with Clinton enables Clinton to be perceived more favorably than an analysis of the facts would support.

          • glenn_uk

            Loony: So no widespread support that you can point to then. Now I get to say “you managed to prove my point for me”, since that annoying little rejoinder is so in vogue.

            Give it another try. Name anyone as bad as Karimov that has widespread support from lefties – the point you jumped in to support.

            You don’t see anything fascistic about Trump either, huh? Blatant racism, fervent nationalism, promising mass deportation, jingoism, sexism, a highly aggressive superiority – none of that sounds fascistic to you. Fascinating.

          • Loony

            Glenn – Hillary Clinton (a liar a warmonger and a thief) is the Democratic candidate for President of the US. She enjoys mainstream media support and will garner millions of votes in the election. That would appear to satisfy any reasonable definition of “widespread support”

            Mussolini defined fascism as the being the merger between state and corporate power. As Mussolini was a fascist I am content to accept his definition. None of the attributes you ascribe to Trump are relevant to this definition of fascism, and so it remains the case that there is no evidence to describe Trump as an “outright fascist”

            I note all of the attributes you ascribe to Trump are intended to be pejorative. Why might this be? Why not compare the actions and words of Trump to those of Clinton and ask yourself which one, based on an objective analysis, is the most unpleasant duplicitous and dangerous candidate.

        • Resident Dissident

          We can of course add Ghadaffi and Assad to that list. And if we count Galloway as being on the left rather than the far right then Saddam will also count.

          • glenn_uk

            I was looking for evidence of you mate Anon1’s point – none of the people you mentioned attract widespread support from lefties, apart from Castro, and even you surely wouldn’t claim Castro was as bad as Karimov.

            Sorry to see you apologists for the far right struggling like this, but hey – it’s your claim, not mine. Up to you to prove it.

          • Resident Dissident

            “none of the people you mentioned attract widespread support from lefties”

            Perhaps not now – but they all have in the past – and all of them still have their admirers even today among those who claim to be on the left.

            As for Castro – how many do you think died in his gulag? Perhaps the we can see if the comparison with Karimov stands or not?

    • Habbabkuk

      Once again, Anon! hits the nail on the head.

      The West gets rid of the brutal Saddam Hussein – bad!!

      The West does not get rid of the brutal Mr Karimov – bad!!

      • glenn_uk

        Next you’ll be denouncing the fall of the Soviet Union for putting Karimov in power in the first place. Oh wait, you can’t do that can you? So is Karimov good or bad, in your view – should the Soviets have remained in power? One has to be good, and the other bad – right?

        That’s the trouble with simplistic messaging.

        • Martinned

          The fall of the Soviet Union is what put Karimov in power? How do you figure? In a quod non sense, sure. But by that logic, gravity put Karimov in power too.

    • Resident Dissident

      Bevin may not be singing Karimov’s praises but Putin certainly is.

      “Vladimir Putin said that the death of a “true leader” whose “name was inextricably linked to every major landmark in the country’s independent history” was a “heavy loss.”

      But what is even more concerning is this comment on Russia Today regarding IUzbekistan’s future direction of travel

      “Karimov’s departure leaves in question the stability of Uzbekistan, a country that shares a southern border with Afghanistan and struggled against jihadism in the 1990s. Uzbekistan’s traditionally neutral stance in world affairs may also change under a new leader.”

      It is pretty obvious where the recent closer links between Russia and Uzbekistan are going. My guess is that the new mafia head in Tashkent will be bowing his head to the capo di capos pretty soon.

  • Alcyone

    LOL Sky News is now saying that a statement that Karimov was dead has now been withdrawn.

    The Inheritors’ power struggle must be getting vicious.

  • Alan

    “The very first words Karimov ever spoke to me were to congratulate me on the fact that Blair had just instituted detention without charge for terrorism suspects”

    Yes! And the Labour party was wildly cheering him on.

  • mike

    Love it how the BBC are calling him a “strongman”.

    We all like a strong man, don’t we?

    Saddam and Gaddafi were tyrants – the wrong sort of strongmen. Iraqis and Libyans (and Syrians) are MUCH better off without them. Who needs electricity, water, food and medical care? They’re vastly over-rated compared to freedom and democracy. But at least Iraqis and Libyans can take succour from those gifts of the war machine.

    Free and fair societies, both of them.

      • Republicofscotland

        But Iraq is a far better place now we’ve (left it in chaos) I mean liberated it and brought democracy to its people.

  • Paul Barbara

    @ RobG September 2, 2016 at 20:31
    ‘Tony, I too have never been able to figure out the absolute obsession for money that consumes a large part of the human race. What people will do to obtain money – to the detriment of everything else – is quite breathtaking.
    Maybe the good folks on this board will be able to provide some links to thoughtful articles about this subject.’

    As you sent out a request to ‘good folk’, I’ll try to oblige, with an answer from a member of one of the major ‘Banking Dynasties’, Nick Rockefeller (but you’ll have to watch the video to get it):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3NA17CCboA

    It won’t be a wasted hour – there is some other EXTREMELY interesting information as well as what makes the mega-rich tick.

  • Sharp Ears

    Weasel words from the White House

    The White House
    Office of the Press Secretary

    For Immediate Release
    September 02, 2016
    .
    Statement by the President on the Death of President Islom Karimov of Uzbekistan

    At this challenging time of President Islom Karimov’s passing, the United States reaffirms its support for the people of Uzbekistan. This week, I congratulated President Karimov and the people of Uzbekistan on their country’s 25 years of independence. As Uzbekistan begins a new chapter in its history, the United States remains committed to partnership with Uzbekistan, to its sovereignty, security, and to a future based on the rights of all its citizens.

  • giyane

    The point about Karimov is not that he was bad, but that USUKIS are bad, striving to cause bloodshed in every corner of the world for their own global hegemony. Craig’s heroism in blowing the whistle as a fully-paid-up member of our bad is not for exposing Karimov as a brutal, oppressive dictator, but for peeling back the skin of our own ugly , brutal, oppressive dictators, like cunt May and prick Phillip Hammond.

    They are calculating , while posing for domestic audiences about Brexit in Chequers, how to continue to deploy military power via proxies Saudi Arabia , Al Qaida and Daesh in order to control the Middle East so they can build a 12 lane motorway connecting Paris to Shanghai.

    Whoops, Craig Murray unconditionally supports the little Englander idea that we, the Anglo-Saxons , have a destiny to run the entire world on libertarian principles. It is a ridiculous assumption based on the idea that because we have created un-liberetarian dictatorships like Gaddafi, Assad, the House of Saud and Saddam throughout the world, we only, white western USUKIS are the owners of liberal compassion.

    Mothers do not love unconditionally. Not even mine who died recently or Craig’s , bless her, RIP. Their extraordinary love is what they use to condition us to the burden of how to behave in a civilised society.

    The internet has exposed the brutal mechanisms of the Anglo-Saxon dictatorship, using torture, mind-controlling drugs, sectarian bigotry, ethnic nationalism and every other trick in the book to get the world fighting against itself, And Rule.

    Anybody who wants a better world than we have at the present has to get off the big wheel of Anglo-Saxon Hegemony. We will never create a better world while Saudis pay for the destruction of its near neighbours Syria and Yemen, and its far neighbours Africa and Afghanistan/Pakistan under the evil finger of May and Hammond.

    Why pick on them? Because they are the latest regurgitations of the libertarian Zombie hive that breeds psychopaths to destroy the world, clones of Blair and Hoon. Cameron and William Hague.

    Every psychopath needs a good slogan, like Islamism for Erdogan. May-Hammond have the cheap slogan of egalitarianism. Yes, these are the vampires in charge, the neo-cons.

    • Habbabkuk

      “point about Karimov is not that he was bad, but that USUKIS are bad, striving to cause bloodshed in every corner of the world for their own global hegemony. Craig’s heroism in blowing the whistle as a fully-paid-up member of our bad is not for exposing Karimov as a brutal, oppressive dictator, but for peeling back the skin of our own ugly , brutal, oppressive dictators, like cunt May and prick Phillip Hammond.”
      ______________________

      The above represents perfectly the unhinged and perverted nature of some people’s outlook.

      Shame on you, Giyane.

      • Martinned

        Indeed. It takes a special kind of unhinged to take a story about a brutal dictator and somehow blame the UK and/or the US, even though they neither put said dictator in place nor kept him there.

      • Republicofscotland

        “The above represents perfectly the unhinged and perverted nature of some people’s outlook.”

        Habb.

        Says the person who vehemently justifies, the brutal Israeli apartheid regime.

    • Alan

      Anglo-Saxon blah! blah! blah!

      Does your history book start at 1066 or something?

      Let’s start with the Persians i.e. present day Iran.

      http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-5-most-powerful-empires-history-12296

      The Anglo Saxons were somewhat late getting into the empire building business and they were able to put into use all the proven tactics of all the other empires before them, but while the Persian empire lasted several thousand years but somehow I don’t see the Anglo Saxon one lasting much longer.

        • Alan

          Yes, but we were all Celts back then 🙂

          And who really taught the Saxons all about death and destruction???

          None other than that other good Christian, Charlemagne, the “butcher of Saxons”.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden

          The Massacre of Verden was a massacre of 4,500 Saxons under order of the Frankish king Charlemagne in October 782. The event took place during the Saxon Wars, an intermittent thirty-year conflict between the Franks and the Saxons. Charlemagne claimed suzerainty over Saxony and in 772 destroyed the Irminsul, an important object in Saxon paganism, during his campaign to Christianize the Saxons. The massacre occurred in Verden in what is now Lower Saxony, Germany. The event is attested in contemporary Frankish sources, including the Royal Frankish Annals.

          • Trowbridge H. Ford

            You should really improve your reading about the subject, Alan, rather than just grab what you can find on wikipedia.

            Fot starters, I suggest Peter Ellis’s, Celt and Saxon, The Struggle for Britain, AD 410=937.

          • Old Mark

            Yes, but we were all Celts back then

            From an ancestral, as opposed to a linguistic angle,of each of the historic nations of these islands (including, in about 3/4 cases, the English) share a common heritage that predates the subsequent arrivals of Celts and Saxons-

            http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.php

            Of course, that didn’t stop assorted Celtic nationalists from the last century dwelling on the perceived differences between Celt & Saxon, as Orwell pointed out in his classic essay-

            http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

          • Alan

            @ Old Mark

            That recent study of British DNA (which I posted a couple of weeks ago ) revealed that we do indeed share a common heritage that pre-dates the subsequent arrivals of Celts and Saxons, but some round here still keep picking on “Anglo-Saxons”, as if they were worse than anybody else, which simply suits their selfish desire for a separate Scotland.

            Err..talking about Scotland, who genocided the Picts?

          • Alan

            And of course, “the rulers” are experts at the utilisation of “Divide and Conquer” which means that Nichola Sturgeon, and RoS, are their wet-dream come true.

            Dare I use the word “Shmucks”?

          • Republicofscotland

            “Err..talking about Scotland, who genocided the Picts?”

            Alan.

            Maybe it was Sturgeon and the SNP eh?

            Actually, according to the toom tabard Neil Oliver, and his BBC History of Scotland show, the Picts eventually converted to Christianity and integrated.

            Though I wouldn’t trust Oliver as far as I could throw him.

          • Alan

            “Maybe it was Sturgeon and the SNP eh?”

            Hey they do say confession is good for the soul RoS.

      • michael norton

        Bronze Age shipwreck found off Devon coast
        One of the world’s oldest shipwrecks has been discovered off the coast of Devon after lying on the seabed for almost 3,000 years.
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/archaeology/7228108/Bronze-Age-shipwreck-found-off-Devon-coast.html
        The trading vessel was carrying an extremely valuable cargo of tin and hundreds of copper ingots from the Continent when it sank.

        Experts say the “incredibly exciting” discovery provides new evidence about the extent and sophistication of Britain’s links with Europe in the Bronze Age as well as the remarkable seafaring abilities of the people during the period.

        Archaeologists have described the vessel, which is thought to date back to around 900BC, as being a “bulk carrier” of its age.

        We were not even in the E.U. then

      • michael norton

        https://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/?mode=pdetail&id=10573&sid=10573&pdetail=101707
        The seabed site of a probable Bronze Age shipwreck off the coast of Salcombe in south-west England was explored between 1977 and 2013. Nearly 400 objects including copper and tin ingots, bronze artefacts/fragments and gold ornaments were found. The Salcombe tin ingots provided a wonderful opportunity for the technical study of prehistoric tin, which has been scarce. The chemical compositions of all the tin ingots were analysed using inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry (ICP-MS) and inductively coupled plasma atomic emission spectroscopy (ICP-AES). Following the compositional analysis, microstructural study was carried out on eight Salcombe ingots selected to cover those with different sizes, shapes and variable impurity levels and also on the two Erme Estuary ingots using metallography and scanning electron microscopy coupled with energy dispersive X-ray spectrometry (SEM-EDS). An extensive overview of archaeological tin in Europe is also provided.

        All the Salcombe tin ingots analysed appeared to be quite pure with little variation in composition between them. Only two samples were found to contain over 0.1% iron and one contains over 0.1% copper. The compositions of the Salcombe tin ingots have been compared to the very few compositional analyses of tin objects found elsewhere such as the Late Bronze Age shipwreck of Uluburun but do not seem to have any connection between them. Further studies including lead and tin isotope analysis are needed to answer the question of provenance of the tin ingots, so as to contribute to the study of metal trading.

        http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/4764

        We were a trading country before the Romans made the first European “Union”

        we will rise from the ashes to show those on the continent what’s what.

      • michael norton

        Origin of the metals of the Nebra sky disk made about 1,600 BC
        According to an initial analysis of trace elements by x-ray fluorescence by E. Pernicka, then at the University of Freiberg, the copper originated at Bischofshofen in Austria, while the gold was thought to be from the Carpathian Mountains.
        A more recent analysis found that the gold used in the first phase was from the river Carnon in Cornwall, United Kingdom.
        The tin content of the bronze was also from Cornwall, United Kingdom.
        Briton was in fact the earliest source of traded tin in Western Europe.
        The international trading of tin was a pre-cursor to the Bronze Age era of “modern life”
        So from the off, Britain was involved in mining and shipping and international trade.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk#Origin_of_the_metals

    • Alan

      “The internet has exposed the brutal mechanisms of the Anglo-Saxon dictatorship, using torture, mind-controlling drugs, sectarian bigotry, ethnic nationalism and every other trick in the book to get the world fighting against itself, And Rule.”

      And of course, then there is the definitive manual for war that all empires have used since the 5th century BC.:

      http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

      Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

      Nothing Anglo-Saxon there.

      • Mick McNulty

        I don’t know if it’s true and I can’t remember the source but I did read that Officer Cadet Schools in the United States do not teach The Art of War by Sun Tzu, because they say in modern warfare it is irrelevant. But that’s crazy, because soldiers still try to kill each other and still try to stay stay alive whatever weapons they use, so the principles of war will always remain the same. If it is true then no wonder the US is so poor at war, because I did read the Taleban teach it. So perhaps does every other guerrilla outfit.

        • Mick McNulty

          US politicians should also read it to get a grasp on reality. George “The French don’t have a word for imbecile” Bush, who dodged war then dodged the dodge, liked to say, “We will not retreat”, but Sun Tzu was clear about the need to withdraw:

          If you meet an army of equal size…..fight.
          If you meet an army of lesser size…..crush.
          If you meet an army of greater size…..flee.

          “There is no shame in withdrawing your army to await favourable battles. The shame lies in sending your army to certain defeat.”

          They just don’t realize

  • Habbabkuk

    Let us turn away for just a minute from the evil Mr Karimov to welcome some truly excellent news.

    Mother Theresa will be canonized this Sunday!

    • michael norton

      China announced on Saturday that it has ratified the emissions-cutting agreement reached last year in Paris, giving a big boost to efforts to bring the accord into effect by the end of this year.

      The United States was also expected to announce that it was formally joining the Paris Agreement in advance of the Group of 20 summit that starts Sunday in China.

      While tensions have risen between Beijing and Washington during President Barack Obama’s term over issues including cyber hacking, the South China Sea and the planned deployment of a U.S. anti-missile system in China’s neighbor South Korea, combating climate change is one area where both countries have stressed they can work together.

      Together, the two countries produce 38 percent of the world’s man-made carbon dioxide emissions. Both were key to getting an agreement in Paris last year. To build momentum for a deal, they set a 2030 deadline for emissions to stop rising and announced their “shared conviction that climate change is one of the greatest threats facing humanity.”
      http://www.france24.com/en/20160903-china-ratifies-climate-agreement-ahead-g20-summit

      Great to wake up to some positive news.

      • michael norton

        Note:
        U.S.A. to deploy missiles in South Korea,
        ostensibly to deter North Korea from launching missiles on South Korea
        but could it also possibly to clamp down on CHINA?
        Only asking

      • michael norton

        Over the past two months, there have been protests in Zimbabwe calling for economic and political reforms.

        Been following stories of Zimbabwe since it was Rhodesia, I used to think that white man brought rhododendrum from Rhodesia but i was wrong. My mates dad spent the second world war in Rhodesia services aircraft for the R.A.F.
        he, apparently had a great time.
        Unlimited fresh water, fantastic climate, great agricultural prospects, fantastic opportunities for re-newables
        It could have been so different.
        It could have been a shining example of Southern Africa.
        look no farther than next door.
        Botswana, doing quite well
        because they have a good government.

        • Republicofscotland

          “Over the past two months, there have been protests in Zimbabwe calling for economic and political reforms.”

          Michael.

          I’m somewhat surprised you haven’t blamed it on Nicola Sturgeon like you do everything else.

    • John A

      Mother Theresa already being canonised? She’s only been prime minister for a couple of months.

      • michael norton

        Didn’t Barak Obomber get the nobel prize for peace,
        within a few weeks of being made President of the only country to ever have dropped atomic bombs on people,
        while engaging in special rendition using Glasgow-Prestwick and Diego Garcia?

        • Republicofscotland

          Yes Obama received the gong in 2009, more bizarrely Kissinger received one in 1973, Vietnam’s Le Duc Tho, was jointly awarded the gong with Kissinger but refused to take it, and with good reason.

          Another who received the gong in controversial style was Cordell Hull, I’m sure Habb, will agree with me on that one.

          Still the one that must surely kill sarcasm stone dead is the 2001, Peace Prize awarded to the UN and Kofi Annan.

          2001 saw the beginning of a 14 years war in Afghanistan, in which 54 countries many UN members took part in.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–2014)

      • glenn_uk

        Absolutely. She was far more interested in saving souls than lives, and generated vast amounts of money for the Church instead of the desperately poor, where such charitable donations were being sent. No wonder the Pope liked her so much – one of his best earners. An utter hypocrite to the end, the suffering that she’s always thought was so good for others (denying them palliative treatment), which brings you closer to Jesus an’ all, wasn’t for her.

        • Habbabkuk

          Glenn

          1/. And what is so wrong with saving people’s souls?

          2/. Christopher Hitchens is entitled to exercise his position as journalist-iconoclast by attacking whomsoever he wishes. I merely note that attacking people who are seen as good – and even as models for others – always makes good copy and probably sells well. But Mother Theresa will be remembered long after Mr Hitchens has vanished from the page of history (and cerainly did arther more good).

          3/. As for not saving lives, I suspect Mother Theresa cared more and did more – within the limits of her possibilities and resources – than a whole series of Indian governments.

          Starvation, caste discrimination and violence against women on the one hand and a nuclear arsenal and space programme on the other….shame on the Indian governments!

          • Republicofscotland

            Habb.

            Ha ha ha, looks like the ones you wanted to denounce MT didn’t bite, however some of your establishment buddies did, take the bait, a spectacular backfire.

          • Resident Dissident

            Habba

            Perhaps it was because Mother Teresa’s concentration on saving souls for the next world that he didn’t believe in and here repeated failure to attack the causes of poverty such as the Indian Government that were the main reasons behind Christopher Hitchens complaint?

          • Resident Dissident

            ROS

            One of the virtues of Western democracies is that they allow its proponents to have differences and engage in civilised debate about those differences – so nothing has backfired, quite the opposite.

          • glenn

            Habbabkuk:

            1/ The dubious gain of “Saving souls” _at the expense_ of saving lives is an extremely poor choice, to anyone bar a religiously deluded nutcase.

            2/ You’re of the opinion there is no truth at all in Hitchens’ criticism, but rather than tackle any of it – any one tiny little part of it – you’d rather suck up to MT and sneer at CH. Not strong 😉

            3/ That’s such a hugely qualified “suspicion” you have, but I believe you’re wrong for good reason. WIth the possibilities and resources she did have, far more could have been done. For instance, directing the considerable amount in donations she received to the poor where they were intended, instead of handing it to the Vatican’s already well-stuffed coffers.

            You’re way off base here, and I’m surprised to see you going out of your way to demonstrate a lack of judgement, together with ignoring glaring truths.

            Perhaps you feel obliged to suck up to every Establishment figure – and MT was certainly one of these, and definitely no champion of the poor.

        • Bhante

          It is a pity that Pope Francis is allowing this charade to go through. But I believe he is a good man, sincere, honest, with a good heart and good intentions, surrounded by many who are not. It is a difficult balancing act being head of a court bedevilled with paedophils, money launderers, drug traffickers, human traffickers, corruption of all forms, and other evils. He appears to be making the best of a slow and difficult task of reforming the beast. Allowing the charade of cononisation of “Mother Teresa” is doubtless related to efforts to build support from competing factions to get worthy and vital reforms pushed through. Cleaning up thousand-year corruption cannot be an easy task, and I admire Pope Francis for trying, as I believe he is doing.

          Unfortunately, the real scandal is not “saving souls vs. saving lives” but “making money by selling and sacrificing lives”.

          A friend of mine was working with “Mother Teresa” in India and Sri Lanka for 10 years. She was mostly in Sri Lanka, so at first she didn’t realise what was going on. Then a scandal started coming out because so many of her orphans were being “adopted” by very rich people in Europe especially Germany and Switzerland who paid 40,000 Deutschmarks for the children, then took out life insurance policies of up to 1 million Deutschmarks, then the children rapidly died, and they claimed on the insurance. The scandal came out from the insurers, because huge numbers of these children were dying as soon as they came to Europe. The statistics were incompatible with natural life expectancy. Many of the insurers were in southern Germany, and they arranged a conference meeting to investigate what was going on. Mother Teresa sent my friend to the conference as her representative. When she got to the conference meeting she realised what was going on – Mother Teresa was selling thousands of helpless children every year to the highest bidder for 40,000 Deutschmarks each. Some of course went to good homes, but many were being bought by ruthless businessmen whose sole intention was profit. The church, it eventually emerged, had already known for a long time precisely what was going on, but kept quiet and Pope John Paul raked in the profits – well over a billion Deutschmarks over a period of many years. They made not one iota of effort to assure that the thousands of children they were raking up from the streets of Calcutta every year and selling to Europe and around the world for 40,000 Deutschmarks per head went to a safe home, or to vet in any way the “adopters” who were buying them.

          After the meeting my friend tried to persuade the church and Mother Teresa to come clean, but they tried to coerce her to go along with them in covering it up. Then she did her best to help bring the facts out into the open, but the church is very powerful, and did their best to repress my friend, who is now permanently disabled as a result of the actions of the church.

          Pope John Paul had a massive massive massive greed for money. “Mother Teresa” had no interest in money whatsoever, but she had a serious personality problem and a massive massive massive greed for fame.

          Most people think Mother Teresa was a real Roman Catholic nun – she was not! It had been her ambition to be a nun, but as a child she was expelled from the convent school for bad behaviour and massive ego, so she founded her own “order” instead, and made her uniform look similar to the real Roman Catholic nuns. Her institutions received – quite apart from the human trafficking – massive financial donations, yet her squalid institutions could not achieve anything significant in comparison with other charities that made ends meet with little financial support and achieved much.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    So how does Uzbekistan and the UK compare in terms of being a Fascist State?

    The headlines in today’s UK Daily Telegraph…

    “Obese patients and smokers banned from routine surgery in ‘most severe ever’ rationing in the NHS”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/02/obese-patients-and-smokers-banned-from-all-routine-operations-by/

    Extract

    “Obese people are to be routinely denied operations Credit: Dominic Lipinski/PA”

    By Henry Bodkin

    2 September 2016 • 10:00pm

    “Obese people will be routinely refused operations across the NHS, health service bosses have warned, after one authority said it would limit procedures on an unprecedented scale.

    Hospital leaders in North Yorkshire said that patients with a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or above – as well as smokers – will be barred from most surgery for up to a year amid increasingly desperate measures to plug a funding black hole. The restrictions will apply to standard hip and knee operations.

    The decision, described by the Royal College of Surgeons as the “most severe the modern NHS has ever seen”, led to warnings that other trusts will soon be forced to follow suit and rationing will become the norm if the current funding crisis continues”

    In other words -“Fck Off and Die – You Fat Bastard”

    I did say the Tories are not nice people.

    Tony

  • michael norton

    “Nuclear Safety is our overriding priority”

    FRANCE fears “untrusting” Islamaphobic Saint Theresa May could sink Chinese nuke station deal at G20
    https://www.rt.com/uk/358070-nuclear-g20-hinkley-china/

    French President Francois Hollande feels “uneasy” about talks on the sidelines of the G20 summit this weekend,
    where UK PM Saint Theresa May and Chinese officials will discuss the Hinkley Point nuclear deal
    – a project in which France holds a significant stake.

    Hollande, who is up for re-election next year, fears May’s lack of trust in the Chinese side of the project will mean the end of the £18 billion ($24 billion) investment by majority state-owned Électricité de France SA (EDF), Bloomberg reports.

    Francois Hollande is right to be concerned, his country is very dependent on their nuclear industries and they are mostly broke.

    • Republicofscotland

      “Francois Hollande is right to be concerned, his country is very dependent on their nuclear industries and they are mostly broke.”

      Oh and the dis-United Kingdom isn’t, May had better hurry up and kiss Jingpin’s arse, over Hinckley or the lights will go out, in the den of iniquity (Westminster).

      Unless of course it’s all Sturgeon’s fault again.

  • Bert.

    They don’t want to end terrorism… They thrive on it. Chaos provides the excuse to justify what they want and then impose it.

    False Flags – like 9/11, Bologna Rail Station and the infamous Reichstag fire – are created precisely to justify the endless increase in their power and control over the people.

    It is the same with disaster capitalism. The plutocratic elite want chaos so as to justify subsidies paid at the expense of the tax-payer; and heaping the liability upon the poor: the very same tax payers.

    Bert.

  • Mark Golding

    The distortion seen through the government’s counter-terrorism lens displays the intention of absolute power through the destruction of liberty. The misuse is clearly proved when we consider four-fifths of people including a rising 400 children under 10 are wrongly referred through the Government’s intervention programme, Channel.

    I believe it is important to distinguish between ‘Prevent’ and ‘Pursue’ and recognise the paradox enforced by the security services when since the Lee Rigby bait the reasoning omits potential terrorist attacks in the UK including former solider Ryan McGee, who built a nail bomb and vowed “to drag every last immigrant into the fires of hell with me” and Ian Forman, who sought to blow up two mosques in Merseyside labelling them targets, and the Ukrainian far right extremist, Pavlo Lapshyn, who planted three bombs at different locations in the West Midlands, one of which would have caused considerable damage had the Friday prayers not been moved by an hour to accommodate daylight saving, and who murdered Mohammed Saleem in Birmingham because he wanted to “spark a race war.”

    In truth we witness the racial profiling of Muslims and interferes with their and others free exercise of fundamental human rights.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35360375

  • nevermind

    the woman in the picture above had some 13 mobiles and 5 ipads, but the FBIO only got two ipads to inspect and a few of the mobiles. One of Clinton’s aids admitted that he had destroyed some mobiles with a hammer.
    How exciting, the next Potus is a fraudster who is not being challenged by the federal state. If Jill Stein would have that much s..t on her stick,. the MSM would have ripped her apart during the campaign.

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/clinton-details-des-fbi-mit-dem-hammer-gegen-handys-a-1110774.html

  • Becky Cohen

    Hmmm…it’s all very well that everyone has freedom of religion and moreover freedom to express it, but I do find religious folk (of all denominations – but particularly the three main patriarchal ones i.e. Muslim, Christian and Jewish) more than a little hypocritical when they suddenly object to not being allowed to wear their religious paraphernalia whilst at the same time they’ve been persecuting people and setting restrictive dress codes for centuries on the grounds of gender conformity etc. Even the other day two young transgender people were apprehended, had their heads shaved and imprisoned in Kuwait simply for being trans. Let’s not forget that this is what happened in the west in places like Britain until fairly recently (the mid-1960s) particularly children presenting as a different gender than that on their birth certificate were even subjected to ‘aversion therapy’ including electric shock treatment/torture in an effort to get them to stop or destroy the part of their brains which the authorities felt might be responsible for their social and political unacceptability.

    http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/kuwait/cross-dressers-heads-shaved-in-kuwait-1.1880480

    Do unto others what they would do unto you? Seems to me that religious folk conveniently forget this when they suppress other’s rights yet bleat incessantly when someone else tells them not to display their identity. Just sayin;)

    • Becky Cohen

      Anyway good luck with achieving religious freedom in Uzbekistan even for those who hate us for being LGBT – after all, at least some of us can be magnanimous.

      • Republicofscotland

        ” after all, at least some of us can be magnanimous.”

        You can’t be referring to yourself, surely not?

    • Alan

      “Do unto others what they would do unto you?”

      What’s so good about that anyway? Surely it should be something like “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you?”, but then again, anybody believing that they have to indulge in cannibalism and vampirism by eating their saviour’s body, and drinking his blood, just have to be a little warped, wouldn’t you agree?

  • Paul Barbara

    @ glenn_uk September 3, 2016 at 05:18
    ‘I’d like to get a bit of honesty out of Anon1. Buoyed with success from Brexit, I wondered – hoped – that examining some basic prejudices Anon1 holds might prove worthwhile.’

    You’ve got as much chance as you would have getting truth out of Mike West of ‘Megabunk’.

  • Mark Golding

    Aug 23, 2016 Human Rights Act will be scrapped, government confirms

    Campaigners speak out after Liz Truss confirms Conservative commitment to a British bill of rights:

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/63635/human-rights-act-will-be-scrapped-government-confirms

    Theresa May has repeatedly cited the case of Abu Qatada’s delayed deportation as reason to repeal the Human Rights Act, saying the interpretation of the law was “crazy” and calling for foreign nationals to lose their right to appeal against deportation. The truth is that the 12-year delay was the result of the British government’s failure to secure adequate assurances from Jordan about the use of torture. But in any event, why should everyone have to lose their rights because of one individual case?

    Nonplus? – No worries – the little angels will adapt to a DNA scan at birth and implanted ID chips…

    • Trowbridge H. Ford

      And don’t forget, Mark, about the counter terrorists relying upon Abu Qatada’s input about what Al Qaeda was up to in Britain when it pulled offt the devastating massacre in Madrid which sealed Asnar’s fate.

    • giyane

      ID chips?
      I thought the very least they could do was transmit voice recording to locally discovered broadband.
      Even sheep have ID chips, are you saying these baas are being stored at GCHQ?

      • glenn

        It’s not as bad as the USA’s “Stars and Stripes” anthem, which has to be played before every single event of even the slightest significance these days. Woe betide anyone who fails to stand and salute, because they could become a figure of national approbation.

        The anthem concerns the wonderful military, because without their constant worldwide aggression everyone would become enslaved. It principally celebrates victory over the British, but talking about slavery it does contain the following in the third stanza:

        —-
        And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
        That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion,
        A home and a country, should leave us no more?
        Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
        No refuge could save the hireling and slave
        From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:

        And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
        O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

        —-

        The passage in bold concerns slaves, many of whom sided with the British, in their hope for freedom.

        Yessah…. any black footballer, for instance, not standing and saluting to that must be unpatriotic indeed.

1 2

Comments are closed.