Europe Fails a Fundamental Democratic Test 106


A snap analysis of social media across Europe in the major languages, excluding Spaniards and Catalans, shows about 75% of posts are broadly sympathetic to Catalan Independence – or at least sympathetic to the Catalan right to self-determination – and about 25% support the Rajoy position. It is not possible directly to extrapolate from social media users to the entire population, but at the very least we can say that the unanimous attack on the Catalans from European governments and the unequivocal support for Rajoy plainly does not reflect the views of their people.

There is every reason to suppose that, despite the massive efforts of corporate and state media, European public opinion is sympathetic to Catalonia. As it is the corporate media and political parties, rather than the general public, who commission snap opinion polls, such polls only tell you what they wish you to know. Do not therefore expect to see the evidence of the gap between European governments and their people to be “proven” any time soon. But it is there.

Which is apposite, as the success of the Catalan independence movement is in part enabled by that general discontent of those governed which is becoming more and more evident across the democratic world. That is not only predictable, it is inevitable in a world where just eight people have as much wealth as 50% of the population of the entire globe.

There are 1,500 billionaires in the world, and their total wealth of 6 trillion dollars amounts to three times the GDP of the whole of Spain plus Catalonia, totalling 46.5 million people. The situation is getting worse at an incredible rate. The wealth of the billionaires increased almost 20% last year, as a great many individual Europeans got poorer in real terms.

Ordinary people create all the wealth from which they do not benefit, and the desire for fundamental change will continue to find expression in a variety of symptoms of severe public unrest. Some of these, like Catalan Independence, are good aims in themselves. Others, like the scapegoating across Europe of immigrants for the depressed living standards caused by the massive wealth gap, are most undesirable.

But what is becoming very plain indeed is that the political and media establishments are simply the tools of the super wealthy, to maintain the state enforced economic regulation of society which has enabled them to monopolise so much wealth. That is why the people of Europe have a very different view of what is happening in Catalonia to European political elites. We are all coming slowly to perceive that the political elites are a common enemy.


106 thoughts on “Europe Fails a Fundamental Democratic Test

  • freddy

    I think you are completely wrong.
    Most people in Spain, wish Spain to remain as Spain.
    Most people in most places, wish for continuity

    • craig Post author

      What most people in Spain want is completely irrelevant. Exactly as what most people in England want is irrelevant to Scottish Independence.

      • Anon7

        Most people in England want Scottish independence. It’s just that most Scots don’t.

        Give us the vote!

        • Republicofscotland

          Pity then your governments doesn’t feel the same, I mean if Scotland is too wee, and too poor, why did the Westminster government and its obedient press do everything in their powers to dissuade Scoys from voting yes?

          It smacked sheer desperation, and still does.

          • Anon7

            Something to do with politicians and power I suspect.

            You get to spend £1437 per person more than the rest of UK despite contributing £312pp less tax. Your own figures.

      • Peter Beswick

        Well that’s not very democratic!

        Most people in England want Scotland to fuck off, its only a majority of Scots who want to cling onto the cash cow that keep you in the UK.

        • Republicofscotland

          What a load of Lillian Gish, it’s your incapable government, who are desperately trying to cling onto Scotland.

          Using every dirty trick in the book from moving sea boundries to incorporating oil wells, to harbouring nuclear subs and nukes, in Scotland, and in between suppressing reports on Scotland’s wealth such as the McCrone report.

          Throw in the media, newspapers, radio stations and tv channels, most owned by foreign companies, spouting unionist propaganda, and it becomes patently clear that England ‘s government can’t afford to let Scotland go.

          I would be grateful if you and everyone who feels the way you do would protest outside Westminster, asking Theresa May to f*ck Scotland off as soon as.

          According to you (unless you’re talking out your sphincter) the streets of Westminster should be crowded with folk hoping Scotland gets lost.

        • JOML

          Peter B – “cash cow”? You’re having a laugh! At best, rUK help Scotland fill in the loan applications, while they complete their own. When was the last time England was in surplus?

    • entrelineas

      I don’t think most people, Spanish or otherwise, wish for continuity with the regime instituted by authoritarians, fascists and the catholic church, which is still represented in the profoundly undemocratic document called the 1978 Constitution, approved at gunpoint and through severe repression of the left.

  • Pádraig Ó Raghaill

    How apt as I am just working on a piece

    Society is a dynamic, complicated structure; it is also fragile. As I wrote in Part 3 of this series “Movements of radicalised people are rarely organic; they require multiple conditions to take place. A disenfranchisement from traditional political directions, financial pressure, and a controlling mechanism.” You can view society as an interwoven rug when society is functioning well; the rug is durable an ability to withstand many challenges that come along. However, when the strands begin to break the rug becomes weaker, holes start to emerge, it begins to unravel. We can see with Catalonia just how fast that woven rug can unravel. Notwithstanding the threads were breaking for some time, the financial pressure in Spain has been high for some time. Considering how unemployment figures are recorded, 20% could be a conservative estimate. There are many examples of threadbare rugs today, the UK to the USA, all the way across to Australia, with too many countries in between. To venture into all the examples would require a voluminous book.

  • fred

    “There are 1,500 billionaires in the world, and their total wealth of 6 trillion dollars amounts to three times the GDP of the whole of Spain plus Catalonia, totalling 46.5 million people.”

    Yes, the difference between someone in Scotland and someone in England is very small, the cultural difference between the Highlands and Lowlands is greater than between the Lowlands and England. A farmer in Scotland is much like a farmer in England, a factory worker in Scotland is no different to a factory worker in England, teachers and nurses are much the same.

    The difference between rich and poor is vast yet which one do the Nationalists want independence from?

    • Republicofscotland

      The Britnats want to flee from Europe no matter the cost to the public of the UK.

      It’s Westminster that will cause even more suffering, you’re words above are empty rhetoric.

      • fred

        I’m seeing a lot of Scotnats suddenly changing their views on Europe in light of their response to the Catalan independence bid.

        If the Brexit referendum were being held now and not last year I’m wondering how many in Scotland would be voting differently.

        • Republicofscotland

          Half a million people who voted for independence aren’t fans of the EU.

          However common sense tell us that some sort of economic arrangement will need to be made with the EU after Scottish independence, remember 60 odd percent of residents of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

          • fred

            They voted for Britain to remain in the EU. The option for Scotland to remain in the EU but outside Britain wasn’t on the ballot paper.

          • James Cormack

            Why would you want to cut off from your main trading partner, becoming poorer in the process? Brexit was and is a decision made by idiots.

          • giyane

            James Cormack

            ” Why would you want to cut off from your main trading partner ..?”
            Maybe because as Craig is suggesting one is not getting the benefits from those trading
            partnerships into one’s own pockets.

    • Stu

      ” A farmer in Scotland is much like a farmer in England, a factory worker in Scotland is no different to a factory worker in England, teachers and nurses are much the same.”

      So why are voting patterns so different between the two countries?

    • Sam

      It’s not the people of England that Scots wants independence from. We want to remove ourselves from the toxic rule of Westminister. Their never ending war, austerity and down right cruelty over the population of this island.

  • Anon7

    A snap analysis of social media revealed that about 95% of voters wanted to remain in the EU.

  • Anon7

    The Catalans, much like the Lombards in Northern Italy, don’t want to continue subsidising the poor and backward regions that rely on their wealth. You are siding with the nasty billionaires here.

    • willyrobinson

      Central government in Spain financed the bank bailout by bankrupting the regional governments. The loss of jobs here in Catalonia and the decimation of the local economy, particularly in construction where I worked, was terrifying. It has bottomed out, but it hasn’t recovered. The communities of Catalonia and Madrid were the most affected. It’s not a question of austerity or not, rather if all of the austerity has to happen in health and education. It’s a question of central government saving its own skin by not honoring any payments. Needless to say, nothing has been reformed, and the response to the next crisis will see us bankrupted again. Show me the nasty billionaires in this equation.

      • giyane

        Plenty nasty billionaires had already syphoned off our capital in the years running up to the 2007 financial crisis. It’s almost unbelievable that the MSM, working for the fat cat bankers, succeeded in dumping all the blame for the crashes onto the presiding Labour government. The Tories have borrowed much more in these times of austerity than those Labourites in those times of boom. We can forgive them for that because the economy is bust. But they, not Labour, are the ones that busted it and it’s getting worse.

  • fred

    “A snap analysis of social media across Europe in the major languages, excluding Spaniards and Catalans, shows about 75% of posts are broadly sympathetic to Catalan Independence – or at least sympathetic to the Catalan right to self-determination – and about 25% support the Rajoy position.”

    Social media is easily manipulated. How many times was the photo claiming to show Spanish police beating Catalan firemen shared and reposted yet no one bothered to retract and admit it was a four year old photo and the police were Catalan. This blog repeated the fake news of the woman who’s fingers were broken one by one. Social media uses the chain letter principle, the number of people seeing something sensational rises exponential yet the dull and boring truth no one ever sees unless it concerns a sweet fluffy kitten.

    An interesting analysis of social media regarding Catalonia.

    https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1903

    • freddy

      A report has been given, of Catalan politicians rushing out of the Catalan parliament, just after some had declared UDI, they were being whisked away in their chauffeur driven limousines, into hiding?

      • willyrobinson

        There is a hope Freddy that while EU countries refuse to recognise the republic of Catalonia, they will also refuse to accept Turkey-style mass arrests for sedition and rebellion. In the meantime it makes sense to be practical.

    • Anon7

      It’s not just the manipulation. Your progressive lefty type is much more likely to use social media.

      • Republicofscotland

        Than say your right wing xenophobic type, who by-passes social media, and goes straight to the press and tv, to get a fairly large chunk of their vile views heard.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      fred,

      Your link indicates you are a disinfo merchant. Please provide evidence that “the photo claiming to show Spanish police beating Catalan firemen shared and reposted yet no one bothered to retract and admit it was a four year old photo and the police were Catalan”, rather than the nonsense in your link.

      You may be correct, or you may be writing bollocks.

      Provide Evidence

      Thank You

      Tony

    • James Cormack

      So why were the police wearing Guardia Civil jackets then. They are based in and controlled by Madrid.

    • reel guid

      They don’t want to be an independent microstate. They just don’t Dr. Feelgood about being part of Essex.

    • Resident Dissident

      Given the two main cities in Catalonia prefer parties and individuals who do not support independence, based on the last regional elections and mayoral elections, will the nationalists respect their right to stay as part of Spain?

      • Republicofscotland

        Oh please that so lame, the Britnat government gave no quarter over Brexit, even though Scotland and NI voted to remain, why should the Catalan government?

        I recall similar bollocks to your above comment during the 2014 Scots indyref. When Britnats like yourself, tried to create a similar situation around Orkney and the Shetland Isles.

        Of course Westminster was desperate to keep suckling from the teat of the North sea revenue, that’s why the question was raised in the first place.

    • Republicofscotland

      “Officially” only in the eyes of Spain, the last I heard Catalonia was a independent nation state, so I’ll stick with Puigdemont.

      • Anon7

        What an unfortunate mess! How lucky we are here in the UK to have had an official referendum on Scottish independence, with an official result that the Scotch nationalists officially lost. And they all put their flags away and went home and even the SNP gave up on the idea.

        Your dreams are now projected onto the hopes and aspirations of another people from another country. It’s truly sad. Will you ever get over it?

        • Republicofscotland

          “What an unfortunate mess! ”

          Only from where you’re sitting for others its great.
          __________

          “And they all put their flags away and went home and even the SNP gave up on the idea.”

          Erm…no.

          Those who favour Scottish indy the figures are still holding pretty close 45%, and with shambolic and lets face it absurd mismanagement of the Westminster government over the farce known as Brexit, and the UK in general, I’m sure there’s scope to reach the 6% we need to cross the line.

          Oh and like the Catalan’s, I wouldn’t give a flying f*ck who recognised us.

          • Anon7

            While millions of Catalans pour onto the streets, the nats can’t even get enough support to fill a few coaches for their demos these days. Sad.

        • Tony_0pmoc

          Anon7, thats only because British Intelligence bent the result. Not that I cared that much either way, but I thought that the democratic wishes of The Scottish should have been respected, and most of us English wanted them to go Independent as well, as it would provide employment to rebuild Hadrian’s wall. More fun, than digging holes in the ground, and filling them up, particularly when they dig the holes in the middle of the road.

          Tony

  • Richard Lawson

    Over the last decade, between one third and one half of wars have been fought over separatism and secessionism. There is an opportunity for the UN to offer its services in places where separatism is an issue, because negotiations about separatism are complex, ranging across history, ethnicity, culture, economics, injustice (perceived and real) and even philosophy of the nature of the state. Plebscites and referenda at one point in time, and at a particular state of public knowledge and ignorance are, as we in Britain know to our cost, not necessarily a perfect metric. The UN is at the moment building up its establishment of mediators, and we must hope that it will focus its resources on separatism.

    • Pádraig Ó Raghaill

      I would be interested in how you justify that statement, “Over the last decade, between one third and one half of wars have been fought over separatism and secessionism.” Please cite specific cases, as it seems quite a broad brushstroke covering a far more complicated, nuanced, situation.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Richard Lawson,

      The UN is just as compromised as Amnesty International. They are both under the control of the neocon creeps in New York, who have caused all the problems.

      Tony

  • Laguerre

    “But what is becoming very plain indeed is that the political and media establishments are simply the tools of the super wealthy,”

    I’m sure that’s true. I just don’t see what it has got to do with Catalan independence, or indeed Scottish. If those countries become independent, within a couple of years they will again be tools of the super-wealthy, as indeed all British governments at least have been since I was young in the sixties.

    And it’s no different with the EU; why should it be? Juncker is certainly a facilitator of dirty financial operations, but then he’s gone in two years. He always seemed to be somewhat exceptional in that. The EU is normally a bureaucratic organisation.

    • Republicofscotland

      That statement is meaningless, it doesn’t take in to account the views of the Irish people.

      Spain aside, governments around the globe can put out similar statements, however who’s to say that, the statement reflects the views of the public.

      We however consult one of Anon7’s “snap analysis polls, or we could gaze into Freddy’s all knowing crystal ball.

        • Republicofscotland

          Really.

          Thats what they said about the Catalan’s, now look at them.

          I wonder if Leo Varadkar, would sacrifice his position to resist the will of the public over Catalonia if it came to it.

          • Republicofscotland

            The laughing stock resides at Westminster.

            David Cameron said If Scots vote for independence they’d be outside the EU, and that the only way to remain in
            the EU was to vote no.

            Fast forward and erm….remind where Scotland is heading? That’s right it’s being drsgged out of the EU.

            That and a d plethora of other see through lies has made Westminster the butt of many jokes in Scotland, they have absolutely no credibility left whatsoever.

        • Anon7

          Got to admit Cameron played a blinder with the Scots vote. He tried the same trick with the EU ref but we British (minus the Scots) just wanted our independence too much.

      • fred

        If the people of Ireland have strong views on the matter then they can show them at the next Irish elections and vote for a party which does recognise Catalonia.

        • Republicofscotland

          My sentiments exactly, however demonstrations get the point across a bit quicker.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      fred, Ireland is under the control of the EU Fascist Intelligencia (the fat boys in Brussels and Berlin)

  • Sm Sung

    “Some of these, like Catalan Independence, are good aims in themselves. Others, like the scapegoating across Europe of immigrants for the depressed living standards caused by the massive wealth gap, are most undesirable”

    Agree with whatever CM believes this week – “good”
    Disagree – “undesirable”

    The EU (occasionally masquerading as “Europe” depending on context) has recently moved from “good” to “undesirable”.

    • Anon7

      Of all the things that could have made the “unashamed federalist” withdraw his support for the EU, it was this.

      It makes it even worse than his previous position in my book.

  • frankywiggles

    Craig, you never spell out why these western European political elites, devoted in every way to the service of Big Money, want a permanently open door to a vast reserve army of cheap labour.

    Are we to assume their motivation was to create enchanting, ahistorical, multicultural societies?

    • Tony_0pmoc

      frankywiggles,

      The European political elites, are under the control of the USA political elites (who are responsible for the formation of the EU and still control it). The American’s motivation is not to create enchanting, ahistorical, multicultural societies in Europe. Their motivation is to cause complete and utter chaos in Europe in an attempt to destroy it, by austerity, strife and civil war. They’ve already done most of The Middle East and North Africa, Now it’s Europe’s turn. These people are not very nice.

      Tony

  • Loony

    How strange to observe a rapid retreat into the world of pure sophistry.

    In what world would Catalan qualify as a “major European language”? I note that you do not directly make this claim but rather rely on insinuation.

    Yes there is a problem with wealth inequality – but if Catalan independence is about anything then it is about exacerbating this wealth inequality.

    I also learn that what most people in Spain want (with regard to Catalan independence) is irrelevant but I do not learn why the agitation of a disgruntled former British diplomat is not only relevant, but again by insinuation, more relevant than the views of the people of Spain. But I guess the idea that the British are the paternalistic natural rulers of the world is deeply ingrained. If ignorant Spaniards get tin the way of ideological purity then they can simply be categorized as the untermensch of the brave new world.

    Workers of the world unite and rush to the barricades – anarchists and thieves need you to spill your blood in order to safeguard the revolution of the kleptocrats. Don’t be too disappointed when no-one turns up.

    • Stu

      “I also learn that what most people in Spain want (with regard to Catalan independence) is irrelevant but I do not learn why the agitation of a disgruntled former British diplomat is not only relevant, but again by insinuation, more relevant than the views of the people of Spain”

      There must be some relevance to Craig’s views or you would not keep returning to the blog!

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Loony, You normally write much better than this. Are you having a bad day? If the Scottish want to have their Independence, then why not let them have it? I’m sure they can look after themselves. The same applies to Catalonia. Don’t you agree? Or are you one of these authoritarian dictatorial types, wanting complete control, of nations of which you know little?

      • Loony

        The point is no-one cares about Scottish independence. If Scotland really wanted to be independent then simply expand the franchise to include the English – and they would be independent just as soon as the polls closed.

        The Catalan issue is not in any way analogous to Scotland. Catalan independence is vehemently opposed by a majority of Spaniards. Check out the main movers behind Catalan independence and ask who they are and what their motivations are. You will find an unholy alliance of corrupt politicians and anarchists. Some support for independence is to be found among the youth – those that have been shafted by economic austerity and whose minds have been molded by the Catalan education system.

        Look at the companies moving out of Catalonia – look at anarchist attacks on tourism infrastructure and you quickly understand that Catalan independence will merely serve to accelerate the economic hardship suffered by the dispossessed.

        You want more evidence? Compare and contrast Basque nationalism with Catalan nationalism. Look how the Basques have created things like the Mondragon Corporation – a kind of worker-consumer co-operative which shows how an independent Basque Country might look. Look for something analogous in Catalonia, and you will find nothing. Look at Atletico Bilbao who for over 100 years have only ever recruited players who are Basque or who have a close connection to the Basque Country. Compare this with Barcelona.

        I have previously mentioned that a powerful message in support of Catalan independence could be delivered by FC Barcelona if they were to withdraw from La Liga. But they will not do so because they care only about money.

        Think about what they are saying. We are an independent country completely devoted to stealing Spanish infrastructure – railways, telecoms, energy etc. Until recent years even Scotland had a completely separate power grid – not so Catalonia. How can you possibly expect Spain to put up with this? Of course the idea is that they wont which is exactly what the anarchists want – as like all revolutionaries they intend to export their brand of chaos to the rest of Spain.

        None of this has anything to do with supporting authoritarian dictatorial types and everything to do with opposing lies and those devoted to weaponizing those lies to destroy the lives of countless people.

        • Phil the ex-frog

          Loony
          “You will find an unholy alliance of corrupt politicians and anarchists.”

          Got any links or further explanation of the anarchists involved?

          I’ve not seen this. I guess they must a marginal anarchist group. And even in Barcelona that’s pretty damn marginal.

          • Loony

            Here is a Guardian report regarding their activities

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/01/barcelona-anti-tourism-activists-vandalise-bikes-and-bus

            Here is their website

            http://barcelona.cup.cat/

            Their website is in Catalan – but that should be no problem as most readers of this blog seem to be experts on Catalonia and so will presumably be familiar with Catalan. It is worth noting that their activities are concentrated on areas that “they consider” to be Catalan – so this is not the same thing as Catalonia as defined on maps – but hey maps are so authoritarian and dictatorial.

            2012 was the first time they contested Regional elections and they received 3.5% of the vote. In 2015 they increased their share of the vote to 8.2%.

            Is this because they ran a persuasive election campaign influencing people with reason and the power of their argument or is this because we are beginning to see the fruits of the Catalan education system? Oh it is so hard to know what the answer could be.

            Thee are others – like El Colectivo Amor y Rabia (the collective of love and rage)

            http://revistaamoryrabia.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/comunicado-del-colectivo-amor-y-rabia.html

            This is in Castellano – but a few days ago someone helpfully translated it and posted it on this blog. Basically they don’t want any borders and they want everyone everywhere to be exactly equal. Some may ask what is the point of an independent country if it is to have no borders. But I guess that is just authoritarian thinking.

          • Phil the ex-frog

            Loony

            Your idea of what anarchists want reveals your lack of knowledge on the subject you are correct, to a degree. The CNT do do seem to be embracing the right to self determination. Echoes of 1936? Except the CNT are marginal these days.

            we do not understand the right to self-determination in a statist way, as nationalist parties and organizations proclaim, but as the right to self-organization of our class in a given territory.

            Other anarchist groups are saying different. For example:

            We completely refuse to support a ‘Process’ inititated and directed by a political caste that is as corrupt and repressive as the government in Madrid and the parties that support it.

            Your notion of anarchists exporting chaos is hilarious btw.

          • Phil the ex-frog

            Yeah Loony, the Guardian article you link to starts with:

            The youth wing of a Catalan political party has posted a video of its members…

            This is not about anarchists. You don’t understand what an anarchist is.

          • Loony

            Look mate I am not a fucking expert in the etymology of words. They describe themselves as anarchists, (that is what the word anarquista means in the love and rage communique) they engage in actions and activities that are designed to undermine the rule of law and to destroy the main agencies of the state. Call them what you want and if you don’t like it tell them not me. They are the people who call themselves anarchists.

            If are so interested in some kind of purity of anarchist thought you would do well remember that the people you seem so enamored by were the very same people who preferred a Franco victory than to compromise their ideology in any way. Oh yeah these are the kind of people I want by my side. You can suffer 40 years if tyranny and when it is all over my intellectual descendants will sneer at the ignorance of the people who have endured 40 years of an oppressive heel jammed firmly against their throat.

          • Phil the ex-frog

            you would do well remember that the people you seem so enamored by were the very same people who preferred a Franco victory than to compromise their ideology in any way.

            You admit that you don’t even know what ‘anarchist’ means and immediately proceed to bang on about one of the most debated moments in anarchist history. And you get it wrong. Very amusing.

        • giyane

          Loony
          I must confess when I’m in a bad mood I like to vent my spleen with a good rant on CM’s blog. Better than shouting at people in supermarket car parks. And then they get taken down by the avuncular mods and whatever the female equivalent of that might be. Your link shows the danger of the leaders of a very marginal independence campaign allowing nut-cases to joy-ride on their campaign.

          From reading about the Catalan independence the impression I get is that Catalonia is much more integrated in population with citizens from other parts of Spain, who have either moved there for work voluntarily, or been moved there by government telling them to get on their bikes to find work, than Scotland. Therefore the purist slogan of Catalonian independence is tarnished by the kind of intermixing , intermarriage and internationalism that the Turkish Kurds have in Turkey. They have been forced to integrate . They are integrated now. Who has the right to forcibly un-integrate them now? That is so unjust

          The French have been trying to help the tyrant Erdogan to remove the Turkish Kurds into the land vacated by the ethnic terror of the Syrian war in Syria. All I can say is, that’s another Balfour declaration, leading to ethnic cleansing, genocide and festering war. What evil fuckers the French colonials are. Whoops, bit of rant crept in there. Anyway the imposition of Catalonian independence onto a mixed Spanish and Catalonian population has some very nasty implications like the Turkish Kurd comparison.

          The question has been asked of Craig before: why is Catalonian independence from Spain not the same as UK independence from the EU. i.e. racist, small-minded, Little Cataloniers trying to de-integrate an integrated Spain like Little Englanders trying to de-integrate an integrated EU?
          This Catalonian scam has been exposed as a regional squabble for power, funded by corrupt NWO globalists in their divide and rule road to USUKIS global hegemony.
          It’s a busted flush, it’s unjust and it’sunfair. Nothing remotely like Scotland

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Self-determination for a whole, like Spain, is different from the popularity of a portion, like Catalonia, for independence.

    Just recall the difficulties of French nationalists had getting German-speaking residents in Alsace-Lorraine and Celtic Bretons to go along with them.

  • reel guid

    Thornberry says the Spanish and Catalan majority want sensible dialogue and not “a binary choice this dispute has turned into”.

    A binary choice between Francoism and democracy. Ah yes. The sensible solution must be halfway between them.

    Of course Thornberry and her party don’t want any choice at all for Scotland about the EU.

  • Peter Beswick

    I don’t know any English person who wants Scotland to remain part of the UK apart from Craig Murray but he thinks me and more than half of all British voters are racist.

    Scotland were given their choice they made it, reluctantly I have to respect that, its just a pity that Scottish losers don’t

    • MJ

      “I don’t know any English person who wants Scotland to remain part of the UK apart from Craig Murray”

      Haha

    • JOML

      Well, Peter B, the six English people I work with here in Edinburgh and my two English friends from Skye all voted YES in 2014, so you’ve got a valid point there.

  • shugsrug

    It is revealing to note the differing views on Scottish, or for that matter, Catalan independence. You can peddle around who is right or wrong, depending on your view or bias, but the outcome of this for Spain, Europe and the world is unknown. Princip could never have known the outcome of his single shot.
    You may agree or disagree with Craig, and doubt his past, but I would prefer him sitting at the negotiating table on my behalf, than some of the others involved, with their depth of elitist self interest and greed.

  • Henri Kerkdijk-Otten

    Craig and others; in the Netherlands the majority of the people (with basic knowledge about the situation) are in favour of self determination for the Catalans.
    And they condemn the reaction of the Spanish central government.

  • Mark Russell

    Borders are irrelevant in the larger picture. I can’t see Ms Sturgeon emulating Trump and pledging the restoration of Hadrian’s Wall after independence and any risk to the movement of people in Catalonia will come from Spain as a punitive measure, but is unsustainable in the longer term. Craig is correct. What we are witnessing is a challenge to the existing order, the global financial elites, of which Filepe VI and his government are ardent subscribers. It’s just the start of a long, difficult process, but one that’s long overdue.

    • Peter Beswick

      Sensible comment unlike mine but I will attempt a sensible response.

      The wider problem is there for all to see. Petty local squabbles and false hope of being independent are grist to the mill of the elite. they keep the discontents occupied.

      OK Catalonia and Scotland get their independence they build their embassies and grow their civil servant base with taxpayers money just to achieve an infrastructure they already have.

      And they sit back and think how pleased they are with themselves but after a while they will realise that the global elites still control their finances, economy, their trade, their access to media and technology etc etc

      The world will still be fucked but Scotland and Catalonia will be more fucked than they were before “independence”. There’s no such thing anymore.

      Fighting big government for more fairness and honesty and winning is a far better practical route for achieving a better society.

      • Republicofscotland

        “Sensible comment unlike mine but I will attempt a sensible response.”

        I though you said sensible?

      • giyane

        Peter Beswick
        October 28, 2017 at 14:27
        Yes. Agreed. Totally with you there.
        In the lottery of the Reply system on this blog one has to be careful to specify who one’s comment is addressed to otherwise it can get left underneath a comment you don’t agree with at all.

    • Republicofscotland

      Incidently Mark, eight proto-type walls were tested out in San Deigo this week, to see which one would best suit the new wall that the madman Trump apears to be hell bent on building.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-27/donald-trump-mexico-border-wall-prototypes-to-be-tested/9092096

      I thought Trump’s call for the wall was just campaign populist rhetoric. It turns out the madman’s serious about building it.

      Maybe Trump has took advice from Netanyahu on wall building.

  • nevermind

    We now know why Rajoy is playing the strong man, he is presiding over a bunch of tax dodgers, no wonder the appointed EU specialist on the subject, Drunkers, is on the side of the Spanish francoists revivalists.

    Nobody elected Junkers or the other ilk that is running the EU into the ground, but hey, that is the nature of fascism today, fool the people with nice words and do as you like….
    The next EU elections will befun, and very likely be rigged, just like that.

  • Alex

    “Do not therefore expect to see the evidence of the gap between European governments and their people to be “proven” any time soon.”
    On this subject, it is in fact possible for an individual to do their own statistically valid survey cheaply these days. Go to “Google Consumer Surveys”, and you can ask a single question to a representative sample of 100 people for $10. If you ask a political question, they may insist on you adding a ‘I’d rather not say’ option which can distort the results, but not always. 100 people is not hugely accurate, but if the result is not close, you can often get a statistically valid idea of the majority even with low numbers like this.
    At the moment, France, Germany and Britain are the only EU countries where they survey the full population ( you can get Italy and the Netherlands, but only android users)

    • Phil the ex-frog

      Alex
      “Google Consumer Surveys”

      Very interesting ta. I’m going to look into this. I wonder how focused you can target responders.

      • Phil the ex-frog

        “London” seems to be the most granular location. No use for my immediate thought but something to bear in mind.

  • Tom

    I don’t know – I’d be pretty wary about supporting any of this. It’s very easy for intelligence services and media to whip up anger and protests, or even to orchestrate them, and to fabricate polls. Look at what happened in Ukraine, Turkey, north Africa and even with Brexit. It is all done under cover of ‘democracy’ with lots of flag-waving – but in reality it is a silent coup by outsiders with their own agenda of divide-and-rule.

  • Aedan A. Burt

    Élites are naturally opposed to the rule of the the people. Where they will dominate, they will rule in this way due to their sense of entitlement. I suggest you revisit Aristotle’s Politics. At least the Ancient Greek élites were honest about it – it’s all in there.

Comments are closed.