Know Your Limits 479

The English and Welsh voted to leave the EU. They are entitled to leave the EU, and it is not the job of the leader of the Scottish National Party to frustrate their intention, or even try to influence the terms on which the English and Welsh leave the EU. Just as it is not the job of the Scottish National Party to stop Westminster having the Tory governments the English people inexplicably keep voting for.

It is the job of the leader of the Scottish National Party to secure Independence for Scotland, and to ensure that the vote of the Scottish people, to remain within the EU, is respected. I am therefore entirely unconvinced that for Nicola Sturgeon to try to play a role as the darling of the Remainer population of England is of any use to the people of Scotland. And the truth is that knowing the very last detail of the eventual Brexit outcome, of which we know the essential outlines, will have virtually no effect on the prospects of an Independent Scotland.

Now is the moment of maximum chaos; whatever eventually emerges between London and Brussels will work without immediate catastrophic effects. People will not starve and run out of medicine, in the real world. The UK will continue to be a Tory hell with some changes of arrangements. Scotland should not be in Tory Hell, whatever Tory Hell’s relationship with the EU.

I am here considering Brexit only as it affects Independence.

If Independence is actually Sturgeon’s overriding aim, the only logical analysis on her part which I can see, that explains her constant haver on Indy, is that Brexit will be so immediately catastrophic as to have Scots clamouring for Independence as an alternative.

But that is a miscalculation. I am confident the dislocation effects of Brexit will not be as immediately harsh as doom-mongers predict. Plus if the outcome were immediately harsh, Scottish Unionists are far more likely to don tin helmets and rally round the Union Jack while blaming Johnny Foreigner, than they are to convert to Independence on the grounds the UK is having a hard time.

There are of course other options. The UK may not leave the EU at all – which would do nothing to advance the cause of Scottish Independence. There may be a general election which could bring Labour into power – that would on balance reduce the desire for Independence in Scotland.

The truth is, that the delay in pushing for Scottish Independence is not predicated on increasing the chances of attaining Independence. It is based on attempting to secure for the United Kingdom what is best for the people of the United Kingdom. It is an essentially unionist position.

This is Sturgeon’s dilemma. She sees a UK in which the tragedy of the Remain camp is that its leadership is utterly discredited. Blair, Campbell, Umunna, Clegg, Mandelson, Straw; the only people articulating a Remain position have no credibility. They are all people who turn the nation’s stomach when they show up on Marr. That leaves a huge leadership vacuum which Sturgeon is filling in Remainer eyes, and in Guardian/BBC eyes. A Remain minded leader who is not personally hated. A very rare thing indeed.

Who else do the Remain camp have as a leading politician who is not discredited and deeply unpopular? Serious question, please do attempt an answer.

That is a massive temptation to a politician to step forward and take the glory. If Sturgeon appears far more interested in Brexit and in Remain than in Scottish Independence that is, on a human level, very understandable. If it leads to the great opportunity for Scottish Independence being passed over while in pursuit of UK/EU relations and fawning headlines in the Guardian, that would be nonetheless unforgivable.

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479 thoughts on “Know Your Limits

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  • MaryPau!

    anyone want to discuss latest developments in Skripal affair and the TV interview with Sgt Nick Bailey tonight??

    • pretzelattack

      hadn’t heard of any. i shall read with perked ears and bated breath. amazing how the whole thing just vanished from the news.

      • Sharp Ears

        Pity we were not told by the spooky Ms Corbin where the Skripals are and how they survived from contact with this deadliest known nerve agent.

        Also why were we not given a health warning that we were going to see and hear from the strangest ever UK representative at the UN, Karen Pierce.

        As I said, a load of toffee.

          • Radar O’Reilly

            Hamish just led MI6 thought for the day on the BBC R4 Toady programme “thousands could have been killed”, “I know that Putin is very angry”

          • Sharp Ears

            Just woken and there is Jane Corbin on BBC Breakfast online chatting to the presenters.

            Giving it the full welly. The BBC is determined that nobody will miss the programme.

          • TonyF12

            Our Government keeps pulling the same rabbit out of the same hat. Brexit has positioned No.10 into a corner from which it cannot escape.

            The MSM need distraction – what have they got? – Russophobia, Chinophobia and Noel Edmunds.

            The Skripal soap opera writers change the plot every few weeks and it has become beyond absurd – even Donald Trump would find it impossible to believe.

          • Jo1

            I only caught snippets earlier SE. Didn’t care to linger long tbh. These days I’m just increasingly stunned at the absolute drivel put out by the BBC. All paid for by the public.

          • Andyoldlabour

            @Sharp Ears,

            Thanks so much for that link, because it throws up even more contradictory statements, such as Bailey wearing full forensic suit and gloves, when in this article in the Times it clearly says he was wearing police issue leather gloves


            It would also seem, that despite massive levels of contamination at various locations, plus the fact that his wife and children were able to visit him in hospital without taking any precautions, only three people were initially affected by this most deadly nerve agent.

        • pete

          I wonder if anyone remembers that bit from Drop the Dead Donkey, where the reporter places a child’s shoe (or something like that) amongst some ruins to make the photograph that much more poignant? For me that’s the point where reportage becomes propaganda, where you become aware that the narrative is becoming emotionally manipulative. At that point you have to decide if the story you are seeing or being told is authentic.
          So, in the Horizon story, we saw a shot of people in protective clothing putting fluffy toys in a plastic bag while being told that these were going to have to be disposed of as they could be contaminated. While I guess this could have been genuine footage, I did wonder if this was a scene that had been re-created in order to add greater impact to the narrative. None of this detracts from the main story: that people had been poisoned, someone had died and the lives of those involved and their friends and relatives has been affected in a life altering way. Missing from the documentary was the voices of the central actors and the causal events that led up to the poisoning, without them I remain unconvinced as to the motive of the alleged perpetrators.

          • D_Majestic

            Still wondering why, on so many occasions, we the public are shown so little in the way of CCTV footage. With cameras literally everywhere, one would have thought that it would help to add large dollops of verisimilitude to the official storylines. But no-apparently not. Very strange indeed.

          • Jude 93

            D Majestic: Like you I always wonder about the dearth of video footage of any kind from so many modern terrorist events. In an age of ubiquitous CCTV and smart phones, it seems quite extraordinary how little footage of these episodes ever emerges. On the night of the Paris Bataclan event, for example, I watched the coverage for a couple of hours on the news channels, and mostly all I saw was endlessly repeated pictures of police vans driving around in circles.

    • Paul Greenwood

      No point. He has signed The Official Secrets Act 1989. He may also be an MI5 Liaison. We simply do not know

    • Tony worrall

      The BBC program just appeared to be a puff piece for the government. It was quite harlarious at times. The explanation of how the culprits assembled the bottle with the deadliest nerve agent was just comical. There were many, many details and questions left out. Was Nick Bailey at the site where the Skripals were found or not? If he was why was that leftout. Why no explanation why the many people who came into contact with the Skripals or the location where the susposed nerve agent were totally unaffected. Plus the ludicrous comment that only Russia had the knowledge and experience to do this. Plus the spectacular clear CCTV in Salibury (that even pans to follow the ‘agents’) what’s up with that?

      • Hmmm

        Bit like the Boston bombing then. The camera keeps Jerkoff (or however you spell it ) centre stage after the bomb goes off…

        • Paul Greenwood

          Yes but the Russians did warn the FBI about the Dagestanis. Their uncle however was a CIA asset involved in terrorist activities in Chechnya

  • IMcK

    At Contrary November 23, 2018 at 01:40
    (The website or my access to it, is preventing me inserting my comments as a Reply after your comments)

    (a) ‘Scotland isn’t ‘part’ of the U.K’
    Does your proclamation trump Clause I of the 1707 Articles of Union? (

    Extract: ‘That the two Kingdoms of (fn. 1) Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May
    next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name
    of Great-Britain, and that the Ensigns Armorial of the said united Kingdom, be such…’

    (b) ‘there is nothing in the treaty of union that says it cannot cease to be ’
    See (a) above

    (c) ‘legally, the Scottish people have a choice, through the Claim of Right, on who they want running their country.’
    From Wikipedia the Claim of Right (1989) concerns government of the devolved powers, it does not negate the Articles of Union or the ‘unitary state’ of the UK and it ‘has never had or claimed any legal force’.

    (d) ‘the EU didn’t interfere with the EU referendum, which was a vote on a treaty’
    The EU is not a ‘Unitary State’ encompassing the UK. The UK is a ‘Unitary State’ encompassing Scotland ie ‘a state governed as a single power in which the central government is ultimately supreme and any administrative divisions (sub-national units) exercise only the powers that the central government chooses to delegate.’.

    (e) ‘division of off-shore industries isn’t up for debate, there are clear international waters areas, lines agreed by all countries, internationally.’
    International water areas reference UK waters. The division of off-shore resources within UK waters would be subject to any Scottish succession agreement. The same would apply should Orkney, Shetland and/or the Western Isles proceed towards succession.

    (f) ‘the uk barely has a democracy.’
    Immaterial to my comments. I reference subjection of succession agreements to the democratic process since this is the current form of UK Government.

    (g) ‘scottish people are not ‘subjects’ ’
    Immaterial to the veracity of my post. Rather petulant.

    ‘Scotland will always be disadvantaged within the union, and always has been. There is nothing to show, it is demonstrated daily.’
    This needs to be evidenced and shown to result from breach by the UK of the Articles of Union.

  • DiggerUK

    The allegations from Boris Johnson that he gave on the Andrew Marr show were never even referred to. Panorama had interviews with people on the programme who could have confirmed what was ‘revealed’ to Johnson by ‘security services’. A peak at the training manual that Russia gave to its assassins would have been welcome.
    It would have put substance to the most serious charge against Russia, the breach of internationally agreed laws on the banning of chemical weapons.

    Loved the bit were a nurse gave Nick Bailey a sandwich in a hazchem suit, then immediately followed in by his family in t shirts. Couldn’t make it up…_

    • Sharp Ears

      I don’t know if it was a repeat but the ubiquitous Jane Corbyn popped up on the Victoria Derbyshire programme earlier with the same ‘message’. I was just leaving the house and was pleased to have missed her.

    • Ian

      It’s an interesting piece of research, showing how socially conservative voters, aka leave, believe in more conspiracy theories than others. A fact borne out here, imho.

      • Nick

        Back in 2003 I confess I believed in that wild conspiracy theory of SH having no WMDs. I guess some people are more gullible than others 😉

        • Trowbridge H. Ford

          SH having no WMD was no conspiracy theory, but was lthe truth. Just more of your codshit,.

          Dr. David Kelly was killed in an Anglo-Israeli plot.

      • Xavi

        It’s odd, isn’t it? After Iraq, Libya, the austerity and antisemitism lies you’d think the only people who retained faith in approved government/media narratives would be arch conservatives/reactionaries.
        Even stranger is that anybody would pride themselves on still believing approved narratives and actually boast about it.

        • giyane

          neo-cons are now on “end-of-life”. sumbodies pulled the plug on the swamp.
          Don’t worry Mrs May’s put it back in again in 26 pages of ‘ we’ll do what we b****y like. Who’s you plebs to stop us fighting neo-colonial proxy wars in alliance with the EU if we want?
          I see that may has plugged the exact reason why I voted for leave, to stop the UK ganging up with the EU against its Muslim neighbours. According to May we don’t want foreigners seeking asylum here. No we want you to stop trashing their countries so they can stay in them and enjoy peace.

        • D_Majestic

          Whilst Remainers might also have a high grade at A Level in Economics. Or a higher degree in it, even.

          • Dave Lawton

            “Whilst Remainers might also have a high grade at A Level in Economics. Or a higher degree in it, even.”
            Plus a lower degree of knowledge, awareness and consciousness.

      • Bayard

        Is not the entire official version Skripal saga a conspiracy theory, albeit one the the government wants us to believe?

      • Paul Greenwood

        “Conspiracy Theory” is the way the Omniscient disparage those not in the know. Question is however, how The Omniscient become so ?

        • ZiggyM

          By doing the deed themselves
          “Conspiracy Theory” was either invented or activated by the CIA to label those who openly disparaged the findings of the Warren Commission into the assassination of JFK

      • Yr Hen Gof

        I’d always thought polls were intended to lead opinion, not reflect it.
        Least ways it was that way when I worked on them…

        • Paul Greenwood

          They are a marketing tool designed to form opinion. They should be banned in the three weeks before the vote and subject to Unlimited Fines for breaches.

          Germany has a worse game still – to get exit polls at 18.00 exactly they “estimate” piles of votes rather than actually count them. TV dictates electoral integrity.

          Then they find in Nordrheinwestfalen State Legislature secret bonus payments to politicians using taxpayer cash funnelled to the parties. It is unconstitutional according to Supreme Court – but politicians like to buy their party voters much as hitler signed cheques to his generals and gave them farms.

          Oh, and Merkel’s Party just made their Deputy Chief Whip the Deputy Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ready to take over as Head Honcho in 2020

  • Sharp Ears

    We are not told which universities are in financial trouble in this article.

    Universities fear bankruptcy as ministers fight over allowing more foreign students
    Fears are mounting that UK universities will lose out on talented international students
    November 22nd 2018

    Tertiary education is overblown. Most of the colleges became universities. School leavers are now favouring apprenticeships or training as they can obtain an entrée into a company.

  • Whisky Sours

    I watched Panorama last night. I’m fairly sure that most, if not all, of the adherents to this blog did the same.
    Why has everyone on here gone silent on what had become a “high water mark” of CM’s reader comments?
    I’m genuinely surprised this blog has almost nothing to say about this important “development” in the media about the events in Salisbury this year.
    Cat and tongues comes to mind.
    I believe Panorama represents a major and highly sophisticated/nuanced development in fake news with ostensibly high credibility, despite its utterly implausible (and easily scorched) propositions.
    Where’s the comment, then? Sharp Ears, it’s over to you….

    • Bayard

      WS, it’s been going on so long, everyone’s bored of it. Who wants their piss boiled by listening to implausible official lies, when they could be doing something else like watching paint dry? Mind you I was amused to hear Nick Bailey on the news regurgitating the official line crap then finish off with “it’s incredible!”. Yer not wrong, Nick, mate.

    • Molloy

      Well, the question is, why bother watching the BBC neolib propaganda channel?

      Surely, you already know?!


    • Ingwe

      I’d rather rusty needles were stuck in my eyes than watch that sh*t on the BBC. Especially when I saw it was going to be narrated by the truly awful Jane Corbin. Even when I heard an except played this mornin on the BBC radio 4 Toady I had to reach for the sick bag.
      Were you really expecting a detailed exposé of the government bullshit put out? If so, more fool you.

      • Molloy


        @ingwe. Excellent. Could not agree more.

        A never ending queue of ‘5th formers’ virtue-signalling and fancying themselves as big enough and clever enough for headboy/headgirl.
        Big Brother cross dressing as ‘Auntie’.


    • Dungroanin

      Gave up beeb last year – don’t pay the propaganda poll tax collecting enterprises.

      I’ll wait for Craigs summary dissection.

    • Radar O'Reilly

      Sorry, nope WhiskyS, I turned the TV off and read a book as soon as I realised that I was about to be immorally attacked with wodges of made up stuff. I skimmed the european news today, and no-other nation is apparently being successfully gaslighted/gaslit by this horrific story.

    • Blunderbuss

      The Beeb are now saying that Sergei and Yulia came back home in the morning. Presumably they had to say this to make the door handle story work. This means the Skripals were at home when PnB put the Novichok on the door handle. I wonder if PnB knocked on the door.

      “Good morning Sir. We are travelling jelly salesmen and we’ve just smeared some Novichok-flavoured jelly on your door handle. You might like to taste it as you go out”.

      • Xavi

        Don’t be daft. They were highly trained senior intelligence officers with meticulous instructions. Since it was broad daylight, they would have crept up very stealthily and smeared it on quickly, hoping neither the Skripals or anybody in the cul de sac saw them and called the police. Professional like.

      • John A

        As he was leaving his own house when he got the ‘novichok’ on his hands from the door handle, surely Sergei would have said, feeling something sticky on his fingers, “aagh, some pigeon has pooed on the handle,” and gone back in to wash his hands? And definitely not put his gloves onto dirty hands!

        • Blunderbuss

          Ah, but he’s Russian. Russians never wash their hands. It’s what distinguishes them from us upstanding Brits.

    • Radar O'Reilly

      “anonymous” eh, more like a real GRU operation! (or a trusted insider, with a grudge, like BoJo, which might be worse for UK IC)

      more Covert UK Special Ops on Hybrid Warfare stuff at places like this (91323 bytes, checked OK at virustotal, hosted in Germany)

      Operation “Integrity Initiative”, with quite a lot of (alleged) psyop nudges and long lists of (alleged) nudgers listed and names of the partner universities, IC partners, and even the budget spreadsheet. It could all be made up! (It’s all very discreet)

      “British leaders say that Britain is at war with the East”. . .look guys, even the (presumed) Russian spys that I met were seriously more interested in shopping than spookery!

    • Dave Lawton

      November 23, 2018 at 13:31
      They have been messing with the EU since the beginning of the EU project with the Gladio secret army and operation Mockingbird.

      • Jack

        Dave Lawton

        I find it telling that MSM refuse to publish any of this information. Psyop/propaganda is ok when “we” do it apparently.

  • Sharp Ears

    The BBC website is still going large on Skripal/Salisbury –

    Go to
    The whole page is full of thumbnails with links either to video or reports.

    Corbin by name does not get a mention but there are extracts from her junk on the page – such as the two ‘GRU Russians’ walking over a bridge.

    Did you notice Sawers in last night’s production giving his two penneth? Same old. Same old.
    ‘Later career
    After retiring as Chief of the Secret Intelligence Service Sawers became Partner and Chairman of Macro Advisory Partners, who provide strategic advice and insights to investors and governments. He also became a Visiting Professor in the Department of War Studies at King’s College London.
    He is a member of the Steering Committee of the Bilderberg Conferences and participated in conferences since 2014. He is a Senior Associate Fellow of the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI).
    On 14 May 2015 he was appointed independent non-executive director of BP Global.’

    He is also in the Ditchley lot where the gangsters gather. Just below Rusbridger in the list of governors!

    I can imagine that most of the general public have little or no interest in the SkripalSalisbury fairy story now.

    • Old person

      Your background analysis of John Sawyer missed another important connection. Who also works for RUSI in the heart of central government in Whitehall? Well none other than Igor Sutyagin, the other spy released together with Sergei. Strange not to mention this in the Panorama documentary.
      The RUSI organisation is a ‘charity’ that provides seminars and reports on military and strategic matters. Some of these reports are presented to MPs in parliament as factual reports to facilitate their decision making.

      In the Panorama report, it was interesting to see the reporter go to Russia and openly interview so many people. Even Nikolai Luzen (ex GRU and now author of non-fiction spy books) was interviewed.

  • Molloy


    Yes. Talk of ‘creators’ inclined to be a conversation stopper.

    Greatly admire your other posts.


  • Sharp Ears

    Trump implies that the US has a ‘big base’ in Saudi Arabia.

    Trump: Israel would be in big trouble without Saudi Arabia
    Defending stance on Khashoggi killing, US president suggests that without Washington’s ‘strong ally’ Riyadh, Israel would be forced ‘to leave’ region
    22 November 2018

    “If you look at Israel, Israel would be in big trouble without Saudi Arabia,” Trump said. “So what does that mean, Israel is going to leave? You want Israel to leave? We have a very strong ally in Saudi Arabia.”

    “The fact is that Saudi Arabia is tremendously helpful in the Middle East, if we didn’t have Saudi Arabia we wouldn’t have a big base, we wouldn’t have any reason probably…” Trump said, without finishing the sentence.

    Critics in Congress and high-ranking officials in other countries have accused Trump of ignoring human rights and giving Saudi Arabia a pass for economic reasons, including its influence on the world oil market.

    Noting that Saudi Arabia helps keep oil prices down, Trump on Thursday argued that almost no country is without its faults.
    “If we go by a certain standard we won’t be able to have allies with almost any country,” he said.’

  • Mochyn69

    Craig, as far as Wales is concerned, it’s not as simple as you think, in fact much of Welsh speaking west Wales, Gwynedd, Ceredigion as well as Cardif, Vale of Glamorgan and even tory Monmouthshire all voted REMAIN.

    A solid enough base for a fightback there, if you ask me. Onwards, upwards, even towards independence for Wales one day!


  • giyane

    This is the first comment of mine that was deleted, possibly not by the mods:

    [ Mod: Definitely not by the mods, or anyone else. It wasn’t deleted, because no such message was received by the blog server. ]


    With all due respect it takes two to tango. Iran weathered out previous US sanctions, slowly building its nuclear capability with Israeli help, yes Israeli help , because Israel always supports its deviation of Islam, the Shi’a, against the true Islam of the Sunni. Israelis always lie because their Book tells them to use deception.
    Saudi Arabia on the other hand is compelled by its authority as the keeper of the two holy mosques to defend Islam against the machinations of its Israeli enemies’ secret Shi’a proxies and the other flank developed by the UK, the Muslim Brotherhood an entirely Western political deviation, with trinkets and bangles of scholarly veneer to fool the people.

    In the eyes of Saudi Arabia if the Yemenis were to wake up one morning to find that they were Sunnis living in a Shi’-controlled country they would have preferred to suffer and die for the Sunni cause than be alive and be ruled by Shi’a hate and oppression. Similarly, if Syrians and Kurds and Palestinians were to wake up one morning and find themselves ruled by a western tyrant, funded by Germany , the Muslim Brotherhood, with a local despot who murders and encarcerates at random , British Tart Erdogan , they would wish they had fought the Western proxy jihadists who have sold themselves to the Western mafia NATO.

    if I was Prince Abdullah bin Salman I would do what Islam instructs me to do, which is to kill the so-called Muslims who ally themselves with the enemies of Islam against Islam. In the light of what I have said I would say that the murder of Kashoggi was compulsory by the teachings of Islam, and the fight against the Houthis is unavoidable. Curiously president Trump actually understands this reality even though he has to wrap it up in talk about trade deals. The neo-cons have destroyed one Muslim country after another for the Zionists. Now they are being suffocated and their swamp drained. The UK has a few rags covering its merciless war-mongering for over 30 years. They don’t like it up ’em but up ’em is definitely what they’re going to get.

    At least I couldn’t find any trace of it

  • Sharp Ears

    We knew about Airbnb but not the Quakers supporting BDS. Good. But this lady does not agree.

    ‘This Monday, 19th November 2018, UK Quakers announced their support for BDS (1). On the same day, Airbnb did the same (2).
    Both organisations are focusing on profits made in the disputed areas, but I think the division is blurred and therefore impossible and unrealistic. Guessing I’m not the only person whose inbox is filling up with different points of view, I’m sharing the following message that came in overnight from a cousin in the USA, followed by my response.’


      • giyane

        They took action against Craig but realised attacking freedom of information didn’t reflect well on the molecular bonding holding together US, UK and IS. i.e. the awful truth about extraordinary rendition, NATO threatening Iraq with Islamic State beheadings and the extraction of colonial oil from Kurdistan and election frigging. We in the civilised world would not wish the delicate surface tension holding the lies together to be destroyed by a micro-drop of detergent called truth, would we?

      • N_

        Z__nists have been crying “shame” at AirBNB. What the f*** would they know about shame?!

        We kill their kids, we steal their land, we try to line our pockets with money by renting out the homes we steal from our victims – and some vermin dare to choose not to do business with us! Terrorists! Hitler!

        • giyane


          I have counted the number of stars in your f*** several times. Forgive me for being pedantic but I frequently have to listen to live parroting of my own bad pronounciation. With a ! and a ? after it ,
          It should be just 2 letters, fə , with an epiglottal stop instead of a k.

    • giyane

      Quaker silence trusts emotional intelligence of the heart. Quakers were oppressed in their heyday by restricting them from travel. In the time of the web politicians like May invoke the noise of the rabble and ignore the silence of the majority. The Tories are like a mouse decomposing under the floorboards, hoping after a couple of weeks the smell will go away.

      • Dungroanin

        And a lot of flies hatching at the same time to die at the window pane – that is what i get on going to my little country home in france every few months.

  • N_

    Another referendum looms. In the Leave corner, we have “foreigners swarm into Dover by boat, while grooming gang consisting of Ahmeds and Mahmoods does its thing in the north”. In the Remain corner, we have “army brings medicines to Bristol and biscuits to Carlisle, as medicine stocks fall dangerously low and shelves run bare”.

    So it looks like another Leave win.

    People can watch food shortages on the TV or as they pick their smartphones, but they can’t imagine them in what nowadays passes for “reality”. The archetype of famine stalks many countries, but not Britain.

    Stories about foreigners sneaking into Dover by dinghy are a different matter. They connect much more easily in people’s minds with the eight Romanians who live a few doors down the road – or if they’re Daily Mail readers, with the black man they think might jump out at them from behind a tree wearing a loin cloth, or Muslim saying lots of “kh” sounds.

    Even if 80% of the population has to use ration cards when buying bread, imagine if the Heil puts it into their minds that families of Pakistani heritage, and recent immigrants from Bulgaria, are getting ration cards too. Then ask whether they’ll switch to voting Remain because they reckon it’s better for their bellies.

    • Tony_0pmoc


      If there is another referendum on BREXIT, I will not vote, as there would be no point. I could write another very recent true story, about the first line of your subject matter, but it would be impolite, you wouldn’t believe it, and it almost certainly wouldn’t appear.

      They did do the Bay of Biscay together though.

      Some people live this life, and some people write about it, and hardly move off their settee.

      Which one are you?


      • N_

        Never mind the goading, @Tony_0pmoc – tell us the true story. I don’t dispute that illegal immigration to Britain is a reality, and I used to go to many places on the Kent coast a lot, including Thanet and Dover, and am familiar with “language schools”.

          • Tony_0pmoc


            I can’t tell you the full story, because I don’t know if all of it is true.

            I would not vote in another Brexit referendum, because the democratic decision has already been made. If it is not implemented, then I will know for certain, that democracy in the UK does not exist, and we are controlled by a global dictatorship, where voting is completely irrelevent.

            I am totally convinced the Scottish Referendum was bent, and the majority of Scottish people voted for Independence.

            I am also convinced Brexit was bent, but the intelligence services were over-confident particularly with the “death” of the Intelligence Agent Jo Cox, and didn’t quite bend the vote enough.

            Even I was amazed at the result. They were too, and went FFS – what more do we have to do?


          • Tony_0pmoc

            I do not yet have a video of the crossing, but this is a little snippet by someone else, when it was relatively calm and warm, and I suspect not in November in a hurricane…just a little flavour. I have met one of the crew. She’s lovely. Some people I know are mad. I guess it runs in the family.

            “40 knots in Biscay”



  • SA

    In France the ‘giletes jaune’ Are causing havoc to traffic and widespread disruption because of macron’s policies and rising fuel prices. We need a similar citizen movement here to disrupt the cosy Tory Britain. Plenty to complain about.

      • SA

        What you say about France is an oversimplification. France now seems to be three times as expensive as U.K. I know that this is probably due to previous presidents and not nescessary due to Macron. However in the last year the price of fuel both for cars and home heating has risen sharply. You will not combat climate change by starving people and letting corporations off the hook.

        • ZiggyM

          I was caught up in it on the way down to SW France about a week ago. Put 3-4 hours on to the journey time…my ‘yellow vest’ lives permanently on my dashboard now in support. The fuel price rises were the trigger for the action. It got it to the enough…is enough moment.
          Rural poverty is on the increase, cuts in pensions and various other factors drive the protests. The people see very clearly the direction Macron is moving.
          I was driving up near the village where I am staying a couple of days ago, and they had about fifteen people on the roundabout…but it was lunchtime, the most sacred time of the day. So they had set up a trestle table on the verge and were sat tucking into a lovely looking lunch. I gave them a beep and received a big wave back in return. One of the reasons to love the French way of getting by.

  • kathy

    She is wasting her breath on unionist politicians too as they view her as the enemy for seeking the end of the what does she hope to gain? It really does begin to look as if she does not want independence at all unless she has a cunning plan.

  • MaryPau!


    I am away from home and have not yet watched the Panorama program. My sister has and seems to have taken three things away from it: it was a novichok agent created by and used here by Russia (- Putin was not in power when Skripal was swapped and would not have swapped him and does not care about rules for spy swaps just wanted revenge) ; MI6 fell down in monitoring Skripal’s activities ( – they underestimated both his greed and his international activities); the two Russians did it (- seen near Skripal’s house on the day in question when they smeared it on his door handle.)

    In addition my sister is convinced the Russians used a Novichok agent so that no one would recognise it in the UK .) And she said Panorama interviewed “some Russian scientist ” living in US who said the Novichok agent degrades on contact with water.

    i argued about a couple of points immediately – how can a perfume be smeared? – it is sprayed via an atomiser. How did the perfume get returned to its box and the cellophane replaced etc without contaminating the agents? How did it then survive in a charity bin for three months during some pretty severe Spring weather In Salisbury and miss the attentions of the “bin-rats” like Charlie Rowley for 3 months.

    May brother who was listening, said he recalled early reports said Sgt Bailey went to the assistance of the Skripals in the park in Salisbury, not later that evening to the Skripals home where he got attacked from the substance on the doorknob.

    In response my sister said MI6 made mistakes and at the same time the Kremlin issued a barrage of disinformation. These two “facts” accounts for the discrepancies in official versions. My brother did not believe it any more than me? I will give my views on the Panorama programme when I have had a chance to watch it.

    • SA

      An interesting observation that is repeated by many observers and sufferers of nerve gas attacks is that they or the victims complain of ‘pin point pupils’. It is an interesting phenomenon: you go to your doctor who asks you ‘tell me your symptoms. what are you complaining of”. Patient ‘Doctor, I am complaining of pin point pupils’. Doctor ‘Ah well it must be Novichok then’. However if it is in Syria the doctor’s answer will be ‘It must be Sarin then and it surely must have come from that barrel bomb dropped by the regime’.

    • giyane

      Craig is well-versed in the diplomatic dark arts which Trump calls fake news. We seem to be totally immune to advertisements, government spin, and politicians and rapists’ cunning lies. So I presume we will eventually become totally immune to FOC air pollution.

      I am a bit annoyed that the only thing of substance Mrs May has published on Brexit is a Charter for continuing to fight neo-colonial in alliance with our EU neighbours, which is the one reason why I voted for Brexit and the one thing Mrs May and the EU agree mustn’t change. The only difference between a date rapist who has laced someone’s drink and Mrs May is that we have known May for a few years, but there again they say most sexual abuse is done by people who are known to the victims.

      • Molloy



        Well, it never ceases to amaze me (obvs thanks to toxic msm) that May$$, an out and out racist and bigot is taken seriously by the UK public.
        Every mention of toxicmay provides the racist with oxygen.
        The fake democracy regime waiting to be replaced by another.

        What’s wrong with people?!


  • Sharp Ears

    ‘Anonymous blows lid off huge psyop in Europe and it’s funded by UK & US
    24 Nov, 2018

    Anonymous has published documents which it claims have unearthed a massive UK-led psyop to create a “large-scale information secret service” in Europe – all under the guise of countering “Russian propaganda.”
    In a document dump on November 5, the group exposed the UK-based ‘Integrity Initiative’, said to have been established by the ominously titled Institute for Statecraft in 2015.

    The main objective is “to provide a coordinated Western response to Russian disinformation and other elements of hybrid warfare.” The Institute for Statecraft is affiliated with the NATO HQ Public Diplomacy Division and the Home Office-funded ‘Prevent’ program, so objectivity is, of course, at the forefront of their work. ‘


    I didn’t know that Anonymous still existed

  • Chris Palmer

    The SNP’s version of independence is a complete fraud. Perhaps someone should make a complaint to the advertising standards agency? They want to be out of the United Kingdom but in the European Union. That’s not actual independence, just removing the middle man of Westminster so they can be directly ruled and run by Brussels.

    • iain

      The unworldly insist that Scotland is a coveted prize that would be able to dictate the terms of its membership in the neoliberal club. In reality, it would be admitted only on condition of joining the eurozone and submitting to permanent austerity strictures on its national budget. The negotiations would be a harrowing, disabusing experience for Brussels’ erstwhile champions in Scotland.

  • Sharp Ears

    Press release from the MoD, via the PA, courtesy of the Guardian. Pure Russophobia.

    There’s a new boy i/c. Not Carlton-Browne of the FO but Carleton-Smith, CGS.

    Russia poses greater threat than Isis, new British army chief warns
    General Mark Carleton-Smith says UK cannot be complacent about threat Russia poses ‘or leave it uncontested’

    He has been in all of our wars from the NI to the Gulf War and on to Bosnia and Kosovo. Then Afghanistan and Iraq.

    • Borncynical

      You omitted a key word in your summary – Russia “indisputably” poses a greater threat than Isis, according to Carleton-Smith. So there we have it… casually throwing in the term “indisputably” makes his assertion indisputable. My theory is that this is yet more (extremely dangerous) propaganda intended to persuade everyone that the UK is justified in supporting murderous terrorist scum in Syria against the Russian personification of evil. I suspect plans are afoot for military assaults by ‘the Western alliance’ against the Russians in Syria in the absence of a false flag chemical weapons attack, and Carleton-Smith’s comments (which have also received publicity from the BBC, not coincidentally I’m sure) will just serve to ‘justify’ any such attacks. He clearly has ambitions to be a key player in WW3.

    • gwp3

      Daily Mail commenters are commendably sceptical (not often you can say that):
      Top comment:(598/127):
      The UK is a far greater threat to Russia. Britain has an agenda which needs an enemy. Russia is not waging wars across the globe, unlike the US and Britain. Russia is not attempting regime change in any countries. Russia is not camping on other countries borders, unlike NATO. The propaganda machine adopted by Britain’s Establishment against Russia is failing to resonate with many informed people. It is quite clear to them who the real enemy is.

  • RAC

    I am totally against a second referendum and am infuriated when some talking head spouts that “I didn’t understand what I was voting for”
    However if there is one, I would like to see the leave choice split into two sections, so that is a questionnaire as well as a leave vote. A cross in either box (or both there’s always an idiot) would count as a leave vote.
    A – Clean break no deals
    B – Leave with deal
    Now that we have seen what Treason May’s deal to leave in name only is like, the result might be interesting.

    • Glasshopper

      Agreed. However the whole point of the second ref is for the Remainosaurs to drag us back into The Club before we’ve even left.

      They would probably win too, and then it would be a third referendum which leave would win.

      Perhaps it is too early to leave, because there are still lot of people who believe the EU is the way forward for the UK. In my view that will change as it becomes obvious that The Superstate is not only going to become increasingly intrusive on our democracy, but hideously expensive too. Coupled with that, Farage would relaunch UKIP, minus Islamophobic oiks like Robinson, and play havoc with the establishment parties.
      For the time being, it is clear that May’s deal is a total capitulation and worse than remaining.
      Since no deal appears to be off the table, I can see a 2nd referendum win for Remain, followed by a third within 3 years for Brexit.

  • Dungroanin

    Just listening AQ repeat for few minutes with my saturday brunch, bad idea, turning off. Unfortunately managed to hear the big-up for one Stella Greasy, lab mp, by the bbc and the grand old ken Clark, her big idea is a peoples assembly to decide brexit with parliament ceding power to its decision! She reckons it could be done in 6 weeks!
    Absurdism is all they have left before taking off the velvet glove.

    A peoples assembly! How many, who gets to attend, who choses the chosers? If it turns into a few hundred thousand or a million to approach a representative population, why not just call it a referendum? Why would it be better than having a reelection of the actual peoples assembly? That only takes 4 weeks.

    Sheesh Stella – you ruined my brunch. The latest great blairybabeish hope for the dunmbleborish beeb.

  • Jeremn

    Just looking at that Anonymous cache of documents on the network of thintanks, journalists and FO bods devoting themselves to fighting Russian disinformation.The so-called Integrity Initiative.

    It seems to be directed through something called the Institue of Statecraft (Orwell, are you listening?).

    Which is a Scottish charity SC 040870, Edinburgh.

    A charity.

    • Sharp Ears

      What a creepy website. No names No packdrill/Redact Redact/No biogs or CVs.

      Even their accounts show blacked out boxes.
      Untitled – OSCR…SC040870…
      5 Jul 2017 – Reference: SC 040870. Enclosed is The Institute’s accounts for the year to 23rd November 2016 along with the Independent. Examiner’s report …

      Some of our money going in via the FCO.

    • Sharp Ears

      A good constituency MP. The only Green in the HoC. Out of touch though ref the vote to leave.

      The only Green MP in the Commons and there is one member in the Lords, Jenny Jones, still active.

      ‘Climate and ecological crisis
      On 17 November 2018, she joined the demonstration organised in London by Extinction Rebellion. She told The Guardian that “We are at the point where if we don’t start acting and acting fast we are just going to wipe out our life support system” and that “Basically, conventional politics has failed us – it’s even failed me and I’m part of the system – so people have no other choice”‘,_Baroness_Jones_of_Moulsecoomb

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