Adab Festival Pakistan 737


Am giving a talk in Karachi on Sunday, and very much looking forward to it. Entry is free. This blog has a number of regular readers and two donating subscribers in Karachi, and it would be a great pleasure if they can introduce themselves. I am speaking primarily on Sikunder Burnes, (after whom Karachi’s famous Burnes Road is named), but shall happily wander off into the vicious folly of modern western military interference in Afghanistan, the illegality of drone strikes, the two century long history of western exploitation and exacerbation of the Sunni/Shia divide, and the great work of Julian Assange.

As always, I shall also be talking about why Scottish Independence, just like Irish, should be seen in the context of decolonisation, despite the eventual co-option of Scots to the Imperial project. As I have explained till I am blue in the face, the domestic law of the metropolitan country is utterly irrelevant to the legality of secession; the only determining factor is international recognition.


737 thoughts on “Adab Festival Pakistan

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  • fredi

    Scottish Independence, just like Irish, should be seen in the context of decolonisation

    However UK independence from the EU is just plain racist, nothing less..

    • Photios

      The European Union is nothing less than an oligarchy.
      How is a desire to free of such a polity racist, nothing less…???

    • Andyoldlabour

      fredi

      “However UK independence from the EU is just plain racist”

      If I were you, I would take a couple of tablets and have a lie down, and if these outbursts continue, seek professional help.

        • fredi

          Indeed able, Craig puts out a lot of good stuff but his views on some things are contradictory or just plain barmy, like his bizarre belief that all Conservatives are are evil, and socialism will cure all ills, etc.

  • Dungroanin

    Happy travels CM, you don’t need to be told about extra security – now that they know you are in ‘bandit country’.

  • nevermind

    Travel well and take good care. Is your book available in Urdu? just a thought.

    Scottish Independence is sitting in a corner, in tears. When the SNP was shut out of Brexit negotiations they should have seen this coming and started a new Indyref.2 campaign.
    BTW. can anyone shut the BBC offices up there, just lock them all in, I can’t stand listening to the garbage of that woman.

    • Jon

      Nevermind I expect you are referring to Kay with an E. She’s got a degree in politics. Gifted at what she does, trained for the job on loose women.

      This morning she ran a serious attempt at winding up Scots to press the Brexit panic button and empty the shelves in supermarkets. Has the BBC been doing this in other parts of the U.K.

    • Charles Bostock

      Nevermind

      “BTW. can anyone shut the BBC offices up there, just lock them all in,”

      Instead of inciting people, why don’t you buy a train ticket, get up there and do it yourself?

    • Muscleguy

      Just locking them in is no solution, we need to cut the power once they’re in there and get lots of paint and large areas of fabric to block the windows so they can’t use solar to recharge their phones.

      The question then becomes: if a propagandist rants and nobody hears them do they really exist? They might softly and suddenly vanish away and never be met with again.

  • King of Welsh Noir

    Off topic, I know, but the subject has been frequently debated here and urgently relevant. Ofcom have censured George Galloway’s radio show for having the temerity to question the Government account of the Skripal case. When did this country turn into the GDR?

    • Andyoldlabour

      King of Welsh Noir

      I think it has been happening for a long time. Have you ever seen a documentary on UK involvement in the 1953 Iranian coup (operation Ajax) or the involvement of the Callaghan government in the 1979 Iranian revolution?

      • King of Welsh Noir

        Andyoldlabour

        Yup, I take the point it has been going on a long time. It does seem, though, that they have become a lot more in-yer-face and unapologetically totalitarian about it recently.

        • nevermind

          I agree KoWN, in your face is a nice term for rabid and we have to expect full blown MCarthisimn very soon, reds under every bed will be stirred up.

      • SA

        Andy
        I am interested by what you say about Callaghan’s involvement in the 1979 Iran revolution. I remember clearly at the time how he was saying how marvellous the Shah of Iran was just a little while before the revolution. My thinking then was that Britain (and US) failed at the time to realise what the true standing of the Shah was in Iran and were completely taken by surprise.

        • Charles Bostock

          I agree with the last sentence of the above. Inter alia, the FCO and its officials (via its embassy in Teheran) was not doing their job properly – yet again.

    • Kerch'eee Kerch'ee Coup

      @King of Noir
      Having successfully booted of Press TV and salivating at the prospect of the demise of Telesur, Ofcom and the British dark PTB are seeking to pare away RTs influence. Once again by being the first to report on the Jolo Cathedral bombings,Rita Katz and the associated Is……..i news agencies have, as noted by www panamza .com, proved that these channels are always bound to be slow in merely reporting the news rather than being in at its creation

        • Kerch'eee Kerch'ee Coup

          @Johny Conspiroid
          Yes for those willing to seek it out , but thosewho do suchas myself are probably hopeless cases anyway. Ofcom’saim is to push outundesiranles,detestables and despicables from the mainstream cable and satellite delivery channels.

    • Kempe

      It was more that he belittled anyone who dared disagree with him, implying that they were residents at Broadmoor.

      Sad little man.

      • King of Welsh Noir

        Really? They censured him for mocking the views of some callers?

        Imagine it had been the other way round. Imagine Galloway had been supporting the Government Skripal narrative and occasionally mocked the views of callers who challenged it.

        Do you think he have been censured for breaching impartiality rules?

        Of course not.

      • Charles Bostock

        Galloway is pathetic. No longer an MP, with almost zero political influence and forgotten by most, he’s desperate not to slide entirely down the memory hole. Hence his attempts to become a kind of British shock jock of the “left”.

        • bj

          If he’s so pathetic, un-influential, glib, etc., then why are you wasting your time here commenting on him?

          • Dan O’Thebes

            Well he did stand in front of his accusers in the US senate and wiped his arse with them. Hardly a sad little man like yourself Mt Bawsup.

          • fwl

            I would agree with the others like him or loathe him his performance before the Senate was a masterclass and I imagine even some Tory grandees were silently proud of him and quietly chuckling (albeit for a short period of time).

        • Kempe

          Not at all. People only adopt such tactics when they know they have no real arguments. As to the US Senate they were really a soft target and a five year old could’ve run rings round them.

    • Deb O'Nair

      “When did this country turn into the GDR?”

      About the same time when mass surveillance was accepted by the population in the name of keeping them safe from terrorists. Now the police spy on anyone they like and if they don’t like you they screw your life up. See recent news about police informing the DWP about disabled people attending anti-fracking protests in order that disability benefits get stopped. Or other recent news which shows the police are providing information to a blacklist to stop left-wingers and trade unionists from getting work. Today’s British police are like something straight out of Nazi Germany or East Germany under the Stasi; a totalitarian political goon squad.

  • Brian Powell

    “the domestic law of the metropolitan country is utterly irrelevant to the legality of secession; the only determining factor is international recognition.”
    Have you ever had a chance to put this to the Scottish Government, any member, and if so had a reply?

  • Rhys Jaggar

    Talking about UBL’s miraculous ability to evade US spy detection in Pakistan for ten years, allied to a need to bury a body at sea without taking DNA samples to prove it actually was the long-term survivor of late stage kidney disease, not deemed provocative enough lol?

    I guess Pakistan seceding from India in 1947 is a good case study for Scots. Presumably mass migrations across Hadrians Wall with allied fisticuffs, shootings and stabbings is not anticipated?

    • kathy

      Would that be migration from impoverished post-brexit England you mean? After all, they have amply demonstrated their violent extremist tendency during the whole brexit fiasco. Jo Cox for example.

    • Geoffrey

      That was the Obama story wasn’t it ? In fact his body parts were chucked out of the plane as it tootled back home, according to Seymour Hersh.

      • Muscleguy

        Indeed, we should thank Rhys for adding territory to Scotland. When pollsters actually asked Scots about the prospect of a hard border from Gretna to Berwick support for that was 2 to 1 against. I suspect the increasing xenophobia we see rising in England might have something to do with that. Folk quite fancy the idea of being able to keep undesirables out. We can start with all those wanting to shoot grouse.

        When the economic basis of the big estates is taken away by excluding their clients from coming here the breakup of those estates and a demonstration of what that land could be used for instead and all the people it could support will happen.

        I don’t have a problem with eating game but I have never eaten grouse and have no intention of doing so for the above reasons.

  • Republicofscotland

    Enjoy your trip Craig, however do take care, I’m always reminded of QC Paul McBride, who died suddenly whilst on a trip to Pakistan.

  • Kerch'eee Kerch'ee Coup

    Hopefully, Craig, you will be prepared against questions as to why Baluchi independence, for example, should not be similarly viewed in the context of decolonisation from a metropolitan centre. There are still many tribal and ethnic divisions within Pakistan and interest groups seeking to deepen them. We would hate to receive a one-word tweet of ‘peccavit’ from Karachi Gaol on Sunday night

      • defo

        Are you familiar with The Khasi of Kalabar by any chance Craig?
        An associate of Bungdit Din I believe. 🙂

        Good luck with your talk, & trip

    • Jay

      Best not even mention Kashmiri independence or he could end up like Danny in The Man Who Would Be King.

  • N_

    The Malthouse compromise is not “fake news”, whatever that is. The DUP have now backed it. The Cooper amendment will probably be unsuccessful (unfortunately nobody in Labour is in a position to call any important shots in Parliament at the moment) and the Brady-Murrison “alternative arrangements” amendment will pass.

    Many seem to think there will be a delay of several months past 29 March, perhaps to the end of the year. There won’t be. As someone has pointed out to me, while the EU elections are in late May the next EU parliament will first sit in July, so the maximum delay for Article 50 would be up to 4 months. But this of course would not happen for a referendum, or at least not for one to be held after the May elections. A referendum at an earlier date is slightly more likely but even that isn’t going to happen. Nor will there be a general election. I don’t see any path towards a delay of past July. What there may be is an agreement that Brexit will happen a bit later than 29 March, perhaps as late as July, okayed by the EU parliament before it rises on 18 April, but that’s different and indeed probably won’t occur because there isn’t a terrible logjam of statutory instruments as some seem to want to believe. There will be a pivot in the reporting and the commentariat will be going “Hail May, she’s saved the day” (“with a little bit of help from the Moggster who is so generous that he has allowed all of the stinking Tory bastards everyone to save face”).

    • Casual Observer

      Unless the lovely Theresa comes up with more than her latest ‘Triumph’ in Parliament, I doubt the other EU folk will entertain her hopes for them giving more ?

      Whats happening now is the start of the saving face by blaming the nasty foreigners line that will be trotted out in April when the effects of being out become apparent.

      Best order extra popcorn now in case of shortage, the entertainment of seeing various political figures in the Klaart will require plenty 🙂

  • N_

    It’s increasingly hard to point to any MPs on the Commons benches who are NOT either sniffing or fidgeting like addicts – and in the case of fidgeting, either with or without their microwave trackers. Has David Lidington on Theresa May’s right been drinking a lot of coffee or what?

    What is the point of going to a debate, a restaurant meal, or wherever, and looking at your phone all the time you’re there? Everywhere must seem the same to such “people”.

  • Vassos "Sherlock" Kurolessov

    [ MOD: Kindly stick to a simple handle, not a slogan ]
    —-

    Tread carefully now, Craig, MI6 could easily assassinate you there and blame it on Pakistan’s lawlessness and maybe even shed a few crocodile tears too.

    • jellybean

      Do you mean craig will be got by – ‘an ”Islamic extremist” of the type developed by Whitehall’? How British.

      On another note, could people systematically targeted by the integrity initiative/British government psyop groups bring a case against them to the European courts? (EU courts teehee) I would have thought organised and consistent targeted harassment online to be a crime in the UK? Particularly when a government department actively targets (vulnerable) people who have been transparent with past mental health issues. (also possibly craig should stop referring to how much drink he has been driven too, it only encourages folk sadly)

      I wonder how it could it be proven that the government orchestrated attacks through their journalist and academic acquaintances had caused damage? Who should craig call to the dock? Mencsh head? Lucas? Cross? Who is the most vocal online agitator against poor craig…….

  • Ingwe

    So, the EU like the gutless, poodle the UK government, has swung behind the USA’s sponsored coup in Venezuela. Although I voted to remain with a peg over my nose, I really can see the attraction in leaving the disgustingly corrupt and ever more fascistic EU.

  • Dungroanin

    The EU will happily re-open talks in the treaty if the parameters set by May’s government change.

    That means her red lines.

    As JC clearly said.

    The notion of crashing out on the 29th March with a No Deal dies tonight.

    As Ken Clark clearly said.

    No matter how many times the dodgy MP for Dover jumps up and gets his front bench to agtee we are definitely leaving on that date.

    • Hatuey

      You’re quoting Jeremy Corbyn in support of the argument that “no deal” is less likely tonight?

      Am I reading that wrong? That’s what you’re saying? You’re seriously saying that? This isn’t a joke?

  • Sharp Ears

    What a sickening lot at the OUP. From the adabfest.com website.

    ‘We are no longer using the name ‘Pakistan Literature Festival’ because Oxford University Press has filed legal proceedings against us temporarily restraining us from using this name for such a festival. We are rigorously contesting such legal proceedings but since there is no legal restraint against us holding literature festivals, we have decided to hold it in the name of the Adab Festival Pakistan (Adab Fest).

    Pakistan’s historically rich and diverse literatures and cultures have long been facing challenges, resulting in stifled diversity of expression and in stereotypes we sometimes internalize. Please join us at the launch of our free, open-to-all festival on 1, 2, 3 February 2019 in Karachi, through which we plan to celebrate writers and artists.

    We will celebrate literature in diverse Pakistani languages, launch books, feature talks, interviews, discussions, mushairah / poetry sessions, a book fair, music, dance, theatre, comedy/satire, and film. We expect over a hundred Pakistani and international authors at Adab Fest, and an audience of around 200,000 from the widest cross-section of society to celebrate not just ideas, debate, and creativity, but also community and public space.’

  • able

    “the eventual co-option of Scots to the Imperial project.”

    This is hilarious bollocks. The Scots were at the absolute forefront of the imperial project. Go to any Raj-era building in India – the walls are adorned with the names of Scots (in many cases seemingly only Scots). They even attempted their own Empire, but unfortunately that ended in a swamp in Panama.

    In fact there’s a good case to be made that Britain is run by a Scottish Raj.

    • jellybean

      ”Go to any Raj-era building in India” – could you recommend one or two, you coming across with your contributions as such a well traveled, nay well rounded, individual anon? Or did you see a picture on the wall of the local curry house?

    • Koke Deloso

      Well said, able. The Scots were more than willing participants in the imperial project.
      In Australia they set about slaughtering the natives with great enthusiasm. Just two examples from Victoria:
      Captain Dugald McLachlan and friends, who in January 1840 carried out the ‘Blood Hole’ massacres at Glengower Creek ; and Angus McMillan and his 20 member ‘Highland Brigade’ who accounted for up to 300 aborigines at the Wattle Creek Waterhole in July 1843.

      • craig Post author

        Koke – you and Able appear too stupid to understand the word “eventual”. Indeed, precisely as I said, the Scots were eventually co-opted to the British Imperial project, from about 1750. That was after a six century process of becoming its victims,

  • able

    Other topics to bring up once you’ve dealt with Baluchistan:

    Religious bigotry and intolerance, treatment of minorities, terrorism, status of women, state support for terrorist organizations, corruption, etc etc.

    You know, what with you being a human rights activist and all. Let us know how you get on.

    • Ingwe

      Yes, able, your infantile scribbling demonstrates your tolerance and open-minded adherence to human rights and female emancipation. Cold day-your stone awaits you.

      • able

        Pakistan is a country in which if someone accused of blasphemy isn’t beaten to death by a mob of religious lunatics, or given the death penalty by the courts, then the legal profession goes out on the streets to PROTEST. They’re the educated ones.

        • Casual Observer

          I’d imagine that CM will be rubbing shoulders with the upper ranks of Pakistani society, the ones for whom Islam bears the same weight as does the CofE for the Tory’s here ?

          Stoning and all the other associated guff of the superstitious and ignorant seems to be the preserve of the lower orders in Pakistan.

    • jellybean

      I think the plan is to leave all this bollox at home in the UK anon –

      ”Religious bigotry and intolerance, treatment of minorities, terrorism, status of women, state support for terrorist organizations, corruption, etc etc.”

      Maybe you have a break too? Cheer yourself up.

  • Wee Jim

    ” eventual co-option of Scots to the Imperial project. ”
    Come on! The inspiration for the Darien Scheme – Scotland’s own Imperial project – and the decision of the Scottish pariiament to vote for a United Kingdom after it failed was the exclusion of Scots and Scottish businesses from the English Imperial project.

      • Wee Jim

        They couldn’t. Trade with English colonies was restricted to English ships and companies. There was smuggling, of course – the Darien scheme depended on being able to smuggle goods to and from Spanish-ruled America on a massive scale – but large-scale trade in all of the empires of the time was restricted to citizens of the countries concerned.

        • Kempe

          The Act of Union changed all that and gave Scotland unfettered access to what was until then the English empire. Scotland grew rich as a result and many Scots were instrumental in expanding and ruling the now British empire.

    • Contrary

      The Darien scheme was meant to be backed by the English Parliament, they didn’t back it, because they were bankrupted by yet another war with the French. Scotland itself was not bankrupted. The Scottish elite were personally bankrupted, and they unfortunately made up the Scottish Parliament because they’d already bought into the English feudal system. These elites, for an exchange of money, effectively sold Scotland off – this is well documented.

      England was bankrupt.

      The common citizen from either country was not given a choice in this, and so I still cannot understand why any common citizen now, from either country, would want to somehow defend the actions of either parliament as they were then.

      • Kempe

        Yes they were at war with France and didn’t want to upset the Spanish who were still the dominant power in the region. It was a Spanish assault that finally brought about the abandonment of Darien by the Scottish settlers.

      • Wee Jim

        Who meant the Darien scheme “to be backed by the English Parliament”? Did the English Parliament know of it? Why did anyone suppose the English Parliament would back it?
        As it was backed by about a fifth of the money in Scotland, which was all lost, it had a much wider effect than merely on “the Scottish elite”.

  • N_

    I hope I don’t strangle the next person I hear who uses the word “unicorn” in a discussion of Brexit. In a political context the word is just as Trumpian and right-wing as phrases such as “virtual signaller” and “snowflake”. How about we make human society something other than a jungle full of “realists” who don’t criticise anything other than radical criticism and who get all their cliches from Fox News and the BBC?

    Another stupid term I heard today on the BBC was “neurodiverse”. Apparently this is the middle class behaviourist managerial word of mutual congratulation and recognition right-on term for “nuts”.

    • giyane

      Speaking as a middle class man I would read neuro = psycho and diversity = not like us.
      As nadir Ahmed was saying, different cultures evolve different norms. So you can get racist bits and racist other nationalities. But the only ones who can ever avoid war are those people who are prepared to tolerate differences.

      To our eternal shame Mrs May’s entire cabinet of hedge fund bullies think they can bully the Irish. This will destroy them within days. Craig’s whole point about colonisation is that starts with yourself and then with your neighbours.
      They want to signal their intention for empire2, largely because any weapons they have are either currently jammed by Russia and China or so badly designed by the US that they fly directly towards home.

      Could you open the door of hope for humanity a little instead of weeping about our imminent ruin? They are few and we are many. Poking our intelligence with altright drivel will convince no-one. Whatever cockup they make will simply have to be undone

      • Dan O’Thebes

        “so badly designed by the US that they fly directly towards home”
        Excellent observation giyane
        Homing missiles. Great. Let’s spend billions on more of them.
        Perhaps instead of naming them after Native Americans and their weapons, it would be more accurate to name the next generation after Aboriginals and their hunting tools?

    • Rob Royston

      You have it ass backwards. Try “Why don’t the other MP’s wear their ID’s round their necks like the SNP and the rest of the security conscious world do?”

      • N_

        So in your view it’s because every MP in the SNP is more sensible than every MP who isn’t. Are they more sensible than their colleagues at Holyrood then, none of whom wear such ID? Perhaps Holyrood security is 10 times better than Westminster’s, so they don’t need to?

        BTW why do you use US spelling?

        I was only asking. It may be to do with Catalonia. It’s probably not because a) they’re the best MPs in the chamber, or b) the English made them do it.

    • jellybean

      I could be wrong N_ but it might possibly go back to some SNP MPs being refused entry into the speaking chambers by the door staff when they first got elected to Westminster a few years back on the grounds that they weren’t ”recognized” such is the coziness of the London bubble. They all wear their glaring yellow neck ID’s as a FY.

  • IMcK

    ‘As I have explained till I am blue in the face, the domestic law of the metropolitan country is utterly irrelevant to the legality of secession; the only determining factor is international recognition.‘

    Domestic law may be irrelevant [under international law] to the legality of secession but neither is secession authorised under international law. A seceding entity following a unilateral declaration of secession cannot therefore call upon international law to define the status of that entity. For example, the Shetlands could not declare secession and call upon international law to back a claim of ownership of oil/gas resources based upon normal state territorial waters (who knows what 3rd parties might back!). The same would apply to Scotland.
    Further, international law (or 3rd party recognition) cannot be used to declare the legality of a breach of a specific agreement between 2 partners, namely the founding Articles of Union. By contrast, I suspect that international law could be used to declare its illegality. The legal breaking of this agreement would require either:
    1) Agreement of both parties
    2) Demonstration that the agreement has been breached by the other party
    3) Demonstration that the agreement was invalid in the first place
    Unilateral and illegal secession would be at the risk of conflict.

    • craig Post author

      Frankly that is such a pile of sententious nonsense by somebody who has not the slightest notion of the law they are allegedly discussing, I am not going to bother to respond, other than to note you evidently did not read the article I linked to where the legal points are set out clearly.

  • Deb O'Nair

    Watching the Commons yesterday Hilary Benn (son of Tony Benn) gave way to Stephen Kinnock (son of Neil Kinnock). Next week they’ll be telling the country the Lords should be reformed to remove hereditary peerages. Having listened to the quality of the Brexit debate in the Lords yesterday one can only be left with the impression that it’s the Commons that needs reforming; it’s full of over entitled idiots, useless ideologues and corporate gangsters most of whom are incapable of understanding basic issues or even forming meaningful sentences.

  • JohninMK

    I still think that the financial savings of a hard Brexit could be used really constructively. Its not just the 39B and 1B or so a month till we actually leave, there is the little mentioned Import Duty that is paid on taxable imports to the UK that would flip from the EU pocketing it to our pockets. Its a lot of money we are forfeiting for a few months of easier trade.

    Elector bribery comes to mind, Cut 10B off income tax or something else like VAT.

    Potentially more interesting would be to replace and increase EU funding into Dublin to persuade them to leave as well. I am sure that they would do better in the British Isles trading block. I suspect the serious suggestion of this would quickly bring the EU to the negotiating table in a bit of a panic.

    • Al

      I cannot imagine the Irish agreeing to any proposition coming from London. That has never worked well for them.

  • Hatuey

    An open letter to Nicola Sturgeon.

    Dear Nicola,

    Events in the U.K. parliament tonight made it clear that the Brexit options have been dramatically reduced to two; some variation of May’s deal or crashing out without any sort of deal.

    You informed us more than once over the last couple of years that you would make your position clear on a second independence referendum for Scotland when the likely outcome of Brexit comes into view. There can be no doubt that, as far as the things that matter are to Scotland are concerned, that day is here.

    If you believe there are limits as to what the SNP can do in the face of more humiliating dismissals from the U.K. government along the lines of “now is not the time”, I’m sure I’m not alone in believing that we do actually have a number of options. Maybe you could start a healthy discussion on options by admitting that you feel there aren’t any, if you believe that to be the case.

    I’d happily go into those options myself, here, but before doing so I think we must address another pressing question in regards to what the SNP actually is — is the SNP an Independence Party (and part of an Independence movement) or is it a collection of politicians who (like Scottish Labour before them) only pay lip service to core principles when it suits them?

    You might think the latter question above a rather undiplomatic jibe intended for rhetorical purpose but on that score I can assure you of two things: 1) I am doing my best to be diplomatic here, and 2) I believe there are probably many in our country tonight who are contemplating much more creative ways of putting that question.

    I look forward hearing from you on the above,

    Most sincerely.

    Hatuey

      • Hatuey

        Did I give the impression that I expect her to do a thing?
        I really never have.
        But let’s be optimistic. We have half the country behind us, and that’s with constant lies and threats. Real independence movements dream about situations like that.

    • Mist001

      For about the past two years, the only statements that Nicola Sturgeon has made are along the lines of ‘I’ll make a statement closer to the time’, or ‘I’ll make a statement once we see how things are’. This business of ‘I’ll make a statement in the next couple of weeks’ will simply be another ‘I’ll make a further statement shortly’.

      She’s developed a habit of making statements regarding statements which say absolutely nothing. She HAS to do something meaningful regarding independence because she only has two months at most before people recognise her as a lame duck leader, which I already do.

      This self appointed independence ‘movement’ is nonsense too. All you ever hear from them is ‘We’ll be getting independence soon’ or ‘It’ll happen when the time is right’, ‘we’re not a part of the SNP’, or ‘The will of the Scottish people’ and stuff like this. They ALWAYS have an excuse as to why independence isn’t and hasn’t happened.

      For a so called ‘movement’, it doesn’t do a lot of moving, apart from mumping its gums.

      The fact is that every independence supporter has pinned their hopes on the SNP to deliver independence. In all these years, stretching back decades BTW, there has not been one single alternative to the SNP concerning Scottish independence. Not one and yet, there’s been plenty of time to establish an alternative party to the SNP.

      Now we’re at the stage where people have been sold the independence dream to the extent that the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon have become a cult, where everybody accepts what they’re told without question and will attack anyone who does dare to question them. This allows Nicola to continue to make statements concerning forthcoming statements ad nauseum which are meaningless because it keeps the independence supporters onside and keeps the money flowing into the coffers.

      The most important thing though, is that the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon have sold the Scottish people something else……..

      They’ve sold them down the river.

      • Hatuey

        I detect that the loyalty you refer to is starting to run short. This will go one of two ways: people will realise that independence is to the SNP what socialism is to Scottish Labour — fake bull — and abandon politics completely, or, the SNP will realise they have nothing to lose and actually do something.

        It’s hard to believe that the Indy movement will go through the humiliation of Brexit, dragged out of Europe by the hair etc., despite the mandates, singing Scotland the Brave as they go, and continue supporting the SNP.

        That said, party loyalty is a funny thing. By funny I mean a completely stupid thing, of course.

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