Goin’ Doon the Watter 542

UPDATE: Craig is on way back to London to be with Wikileaks following the arrest of Julian Assange under the Extradition Act. He does still intend to speak at Rothesay.

Scotland Yard statement:

Julian Assange, 47, (03.07.71) has today, Thursday 11 April, been further arrested on behalf of the United States authorities, at 10:53hrs after his arrival at a central London police station. This is an extradition warrant under Section 73 of the Extradition Act. He will appear in custody at Westminster Magistrates’ Court as soon as possible.

I am speaking in Rothesay at St Paul’s Church Hall, Deanhood Place, at 2pm on Saturday. I am heading back up to Scotland today. I will be there in any circumstances, and will dash back down afterwards should events with Julian and Wikileaks require. I have incidentally had a definitive reply from the Embassy of Ecuador that I am not allowed to visit Julian even though he has asked me to; definitive evidence that Assange is now being treated by Moreno as a prisoner.

I have to confess I have never been to the Isle of Bute, despite a very bad impression of Andy Stewart singing “Goin’ Doon the Watter fur the Fair” being one of the large variety of embarrassing things I am liable to do when drunk. I look forward to it enormously and am grateful to Rothesay Historical Society for hosting me. I always fret that nobody will turn up to hear me and am very honoured when people do.

As ever, I do not know exactly what I will say until I stand up. But I have in mind touching on Scotland’s right to self-determination and the routes to Independence through international recognition. I will argue that a referendum is one route but not the only one, and while I accept it is the most desirable way forward, I shall advance other avenues that might be quite legally pursued if a referendum is blocked, stressing that a nation’s Independence is exclusively a matter of international law, not domestic law.

I shall argue that the Scottish government needs to get on with it and it is a massive mistake to allow the UK government to recover from its chaos and process the Brexit debacle. Scotland should act before the UK regroups, not after.

I shall also argue that just as the Scots have the right of self-determination, so do the English. It is not just bad tactics for the SNP to prioritise stopping Brexit over Independence, it is wrong. The English plainly voted to leave the EU and it is not Scotland’s role to thwart the democratic will of the English people. Scotland should become Independent, and remain an EU member, as its people voted. England and Wales should leave the EU as their people voted, and those who truly believe in Scottish Independence should realise it is not our right to prevent the English from doing what they self-determine. Let’s get Independence and do our own thing, leaving them to do theirs.

There needs to be a referendum on Irish unification.

I shall also ramble around Wikileaks, the Mueller report, the Skripal saga, the Integrity Initiative, and answer questions in any other area. Time now to start back up the A1!

542 thoughts on “Goin’ Doon the Watter

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  • Republicofscotland

    The repercussions are beginning already.

    Former Ecuadorian President Rafael Correrá reacted by calling Moreno the “greatest traitor in Ecuadorian and Latin American history.”

    For Ecuadorian president, Lenin Moreno, withdrew Assange’s asylum.

    • Charles Bostock

      President Rafael Correa is yesterday’s man. He got beaten fair and square in the last election (even the usual lefties didn’t say the election was rigged, btw).

    • Tom Welsh

      Well said, Mr Correa.

      As for that piece of shit Moreno – well, American money (and perhaps threats) talk loudly to some.

  • Northern

    The real face of the British state on full display today. Will be interesting watching the hacks trying to pick their way around avoiding describing him as a journalist.

    Also, whoever does the moderation on these comments, have a word with yourself. Charles and Martin should not be above criticism for defending this injustice.


    [ Mod: You’re very welcome to criticise their statements, as many others are currently doing. But please refrain from imputing alternative motivations, such as financial incentives. Please refute, don’t impugn.

    From Craig’s moderation rules for commenters:

    Fair Play
    Play the ball, not the man. Address arguments, not people. Do not impugn the motives of others, including me.

    Regards. ]

    • glenn_nl

      Craig Murray is a bit soft when it comes to free speech, so he allows these stooges of the state to bask in the power they like to think they’re part of. Hence, they will _always_ be on the side of the state and the powerful, and crow when it achieves victory – no matter how reprehensible.

      • Michael McNulty

        Soon the political climate in Britain may change and we could return to something more balanced, in which case today’s defenders of immoral practices will find themselves on the back foot and instead of attacking the actions of others they’ll be justifying their own. As they can’t say they were only obeying orders it’ll have to be something like, “It’s their fault, they made me think like that.” I don’t know if Goebbels had a saying for such boot-licking suck-ups but I bet Shakespeare had.

    • John2o2o

      Then stop describing him as a journalist. Julian is a publisher. They can’t argue with that.

      The problem is that he is not what the masses out there consider to be a journalist. You cannot change that.

      Continually arguing about this damages Julian’s cause. He is a publisher.

      • Clark

        Most of the public don’t realise that most journalsts now do most of their investigation on-line. Therefore Assange certainly counts as a journalist (as well as a publisher) in this modern sense; he finds issues, and reports and comments about them, relating them to facts revealed by WikiLeaks.

  • conjunction

    In the wake of Assange’s expulsion from the Embassy, we shall learn a lot about the Guardian.

      • Andyoldlabour


        At least it is heartening to see Elgot get ripped to shreds for that senseless tweet. I sometimes think it is good for losers to actually reveal their true thoughts for all to see.

        • N_

          That tweet is so typical of the “humour” of cowardly middle-class creeps who have never had the guts to challenge anything in their lives. Which is usually quite a good way of spelling the word “journalist”.

    • John2o2o

      We already know about the Guardian. Craven “left wing” security state shill.

  • Andyoldlabour

    At this moment, I feel as ashamed of the UK government as I did when we last followed the US to war.
    Where the US is concerned, their foreign policy/interventions/torture/murder, there is no transparency or accountability.
    Anyone celebrating the arrest of Julian Assange, should just stop and think (if they are capable of thinking) that it could easily be them on the receiving end of this state sponsored thuggery.

    • Tom Welsh

      Many people – including those who have the advantages of high intelligence and good education – secretly dislike and resent personal freedom, so they hate and resent those who try to give it to them. Eric Hoffer explained this better than I could.

      “Unless a man has talents to make something of himself, freedom is an irksome burden. Of what avail is freedom to choose if the self be ineffectual? We join a mass movement to escape individual responsibility, or, in the words of the ardent young Nazi, “to be free from freedom.” It was not sheer hypocrisy when the rank-and-file Nazis declared themselves not guilty of all the enormities they had committed. They considered themselves cheated and maligned when made to shoulder responsibility for obeying orders. Had they not joined the Nazi movement in order to be free from responsibility?”

      – Eric Hoffer

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Looks like Assange is in big trouble for cooking up this dispute for years. Think that the US gov’t will charge him with the murders of innocent people by leaking the unredacted Afghan File to the nedia.

    Should have done better if Obama was still POTUZS.

    • pretzelattack

      “cooking up the dispute”??? he didn’t shoot those people in the video, nor did he authorize it. he just acted as a journalist in exposing it. obama was after him, just as trump, so no he wouldn’t have done better.

    • Tom Welsh

      Nobody is responsible for the death of anyone in the Afghan fighting except the US government, which launched its unprovoked war of aggression (the supreme international crime) in utter disregard of and contempt for the UN Charter and international law.

      If a criminal burgles a house and a struggle ensues in which either he or the householder is killed, the criminal is responsible. Because if he had not committed the burglary none of it would have happened.

  • Lorna Campbell

    “…I shall advance other avenues that might be quite legally pursued if a referendum is blocked, stressing that a nation’s Independence is exclusively a matter of international law, not domestic law…”

    Quite so, Mr Murray, but another indyref is suicide if we can see very well, from drawing on the circumstances and demographics and logistics of the first, that it is touch and go whether we can win. If that is the case – and I believe it is – then one must pose the question to the SNP leadership: why are you not pursuing the international route as a) Mr Murray has stated above, and which I and many, many others agree; or b) if another indyref is basically unwinnable and even a narrow win in light of the Brexit debacle would be asking for trouble) given the opposition we are up against by the British State, not necessarily the opposition to another indyref? Just why are the SNP leadership following, slavishly, British (that is, English) constitutional rules instead of challenging them? What advice are they listening to and where is that advice emanating from? Whitehall? The Thames Embankment?

    As for Mr Assange, the Swedish statute of limitations has applied to the charges he was to face there, before it was leaked that he was to be handed over to the Americans after his trial in Sweden, so there is no longer a case to answer. All that is left is the leaking of information that the authorities do not want to be leaked because they are at it. The UK will extradite him, so slavish is our devotion to the interests of The US, which, mistakenly, our fine lads from Oxbridge believe are also the UK’s.

  • Bob

    No inquest for Dawn Sturgess
    Integrity Initiative / Institute for Statecraft
    Universal Credit
    Food Banks
    Drug Epidemic
    Knife Crime / Murders

    Where does it go from here?

  • Harry Bickerstaff

    Absolutely correct, when you say that the English made an English choice and we shouldn’t be trying to interfere. Can’t believe our government lay down to the, ‘It’s a British decision to leave Europe’ argument and we should have made our stand at THAT point. Now we’re trailing along holding on to other folks coats and have totally lost our own direction and are simply trying to make the best of a bad job, which could even result in England voting to leave (again) and us trying to whisper that Scotland voted differently. We would immediately be confronted with the argument that we accepted a ‘British referendum’ argument over two years ago and what has changed? The honest answer to that, is, ‘Nothing’. Then we would have to start fighting a fight we should have started over two years ago and presumably lose that too, as we accepted the logic of the argument last time.
    It’s time to break out of the ‘We are all British’ mould, which seems to have been accepted by our ‘leaders’.
    There appears to be a distinct lack of fire in the belly at the top. This is a BATTLE; not a nice debate and it’s time we started fighting.

    • N_

      After all, the SNP won 37% of the Scottish vote in 2017. So it’s all systems go for a 1916 Dublin rising type of job then? “You English can’t take us out of our beloved EU”. Are you actually aware of how this mouth-foaming sounds?

  • Hieroglyph

    Sorry for Craig, after he made the effort. It’s pretty disgraceful stuff, literally dragging the guy from an embassy. And, it isn’t even clear what he’s being arrested for. The fake sex charges? Nope, dropped. Breach of bail? Never in my life seen anyone dragged from an embassy for breach of bail.

    His lawyer is stating there’s a US extradition request. Well, that’s somewhat murky, to say the least. Request by whom? And what is their authority, according to the US-UK extradition treaty? For all we know, it’s some Clinton stooge who passed the bar.

    Lenin Moreno is obviously a CIA stooge. One wonders at the role of our own PM, however. Political hot potatoes like this don’t go ahead without consulting a) the PM, b) The Home Sec. Well, I assume so anyway, Craig probably knows about that wonkish insider stuff.

    So yeah, fuck the UK government. Also, the Australian government, who won’t do jack shit to help their own citizen. They let ISIS members return though, so that’s good.

  • Runner77

    A truly shameful moment for Ecuador and the UK. Both countries have revealed themselves (if there was ever any doubt) to be nothing more than poodles of the USA . . .

    • Trowbridge H. Ford

      Much more for the UK rather than Ecuador which has spent millions of pounds trying to protect someone who isn’t even one of its citizens.

      • Tom Welsh

        “Ecuador which has spent millions of pounds trying to protect someone who isn’t even one of its citizens”.

        Er, how has it “spent millions of pounds”?

        Even in Knightsbridge rents aren’t THAT high.

  • Tatyana

    Mr. Snowden writes in his Twitter:
    “Important background for journalists covering the arrest of Julian #Assange by Ecuador: the United Nations formally ruled his detention to be arbitrary, a violation of human rights. They have repeatedly issued statements calling for him to walk free–including very recently”

    Jen Robinson, Assange’s lawyer:
    “Just confirmed: #Assange has been arrested not just for breach of bail conditions but also in relation to a US extradition request.”

    • Tom Welsh

      ‘Mr. Snowden writes in his Twitter:
      “Important background for journalists covering the arrest of Julian #Assange by Ecuador: the United Nations formally ruled his detention to be arbitrary, a violation of human rights. They have repeatedly issued statements calling for him to walk free–including very recently”

      As I mentioned earlier, neither the US nor the UK government cares in the slightest for any law whatever, from local bylaws to the US Constitution or the Charter of the UN.

      They merely use them as cover when convenient.

      • Tatyana

        It is so unfair and so unjust for me, Tom, because when I try to understand what is going on I assume some points:
        – we (russians) are different to other nations,
        – some international rules are established,
        – if we play according to those rules, so we are OK in the eyes of the international society.
        *please forgive the simplification*

        and, suddenly, we see that the rules are of no importance. In Russia we use the proverb “закон что дышло, куда повернешь, то и вышло”
        it is roughly “the law is like the horse’s harness. the way you turn it, you get it.”

  • Clark

    I’d just like to say to all the conspiracy theorists on here; many of you supported Trump because he supported your favourite conspiracy theories. I hope you will now reconsider the way you evaluate evidence; Trump was clearly a charlatan all along.

      • Clark

        And the e-mail leak revealed that the devastation of Libya was colloquially known among Democrats as “Hillary’s War” – funded by the Gulf monarchies, as was Hillary’s campaign.

        Both sides fielded highly corrupt candidates. Crime rules the US.

    • Andyoldlabour


      Quite correct, but unfortunately both Democrats and Republicans are as bad as each other. I think both Trump and Clinton are evil.
      I also think Trump will try to outdo previous POTUS with regard to violence and wars.

    • Tom Welsh

      I supported Trump because the only alternative was Hillary Clinton, and I am not ready to die yet.

      (Not that I had a vote).

      I would have supported Poroshenko against Clinton. Trump is merely rude, foolish and incoherent; whereas Clinton is violently and dangerously insane.

  • Dot

    …Then they came for us and whose going to speak out? Not The Australian that’s for sure.
    (Unless your an Aussie casino promoter being jailed in China for pushing gambling) Sorry Julian that we are so pissweak and Thank you for your integrity and dedication towards giving the people the option to know the truth if they wish too, rather than ramming alot of propaganda vacuous rubbish in their face

  • John2o2o

    I’m sure no-one will mind if you are not able to honour your commitment to Rothesay on this occasion.

  • Aidworker1

    The book he’s carrying is Gore Vidal History of The National Security State.

    • Mighty Drunken

      Hmm I’ve just had a thought, probably nonsense.

      If you were Assange it would make sense to keep some particularly damaging things back as a bargaining chip. Then, if certain events happen or a particular signal made, some of this is released. Was the book a signal?

      • Borncynical

        Mighty Drunken

        That thought occurred to me also. You may recall that there was the suggestion that campaign worker Seth Rich was the inside source of the leaked information about Hilary Clinton’s emails. Rich later died, murdered in mysterious circumstances. Assange never denied that Rich was the source, but refused to reveal who the source was because to do so would compromise everything that Wikileaks stood for with regard to protecting identities of sources. I do not need to have a vivid imagination to picture what the US PTB might do if they have reason to believe that Assange might hold more information up his sleeve, even if he intends to stick to his vow of silence.

  • Mighty Drunken

    So the MET say Assange was arrested in a planned operation.
    Ecuador invited the UK police into their embassy.

    This sounds like the machinations of the “International state”, with a clear plan to deal with Assange.

    Oh look! He was arrested in part due to an extradition state to the US. It is clear he will be extradited with the full backing of the UK Government, unless Assange’s legal team can pull a magical rabbit out of the legal hat.

  • pretzelattack

    where are the shills that were telling us it was just a drama show, that assange wasn’t going to be arrested, that he was going to be tried for jumping bail on a defunct arrest warrant and not extradited?

    • michael norton

      This has the hand of Mrs. Theresa May.
      She was the Home Secretary, when it started for Julian Assange and is now the Prime Minister.
      It has her say so.
      Yet she was causing a distraction in Europe, so out the country, while this foul deed was undertaken.

    • Charles Bostock


      But he hasn’t been extradited, has he. There is a request for him to be extradited. Even you can see the difference, surely?

    • Ingwe

      pretzelattack asked:
      “April 11, 2019 at 13:12
      where are the shills that were telling us it was just a drama show, that assange wasn’t going to be arrested, that he was going to be tried for jumping bail on a defunct arrest warrant and not extradite”

      They’re at home in their armchairs in front of their TVs masturbating furiously. Real life miscarriages of justice are so much more arousing than video war games and playing armchair global strategists with their smug arrogant world views. One wishes some devastating action on them if only to shock them.

  • Sharp Ears

    Shame on the war criminals in the UK and US ‘governments’.

    I am so sorry and very sad for Julian. The BiBiCee is even showing the film which he exposed of the US attack on the Iraqi citizens.

    • Trowbridge H. Ford

      Assange should have understood what vengeance the UK and US took for his publishing the Afghan File after they were killing those who leaked it, and those who said they would continue them or to be concered about the leaks

    • Mighty Drunken

      I notice Parliment is going on a two week break. Sounds a bit convenient, not just on Brexit but denying any talk about Assange and the role the UK will play in the next few weeks.

    • Jo

      He said it had taken years of careful diplomacy to do this……yuh…”diplomacy”…..heaven help us.

  • Clark

    Edward Snowden Retweeted Verified account @wikileaks 31 minutes ago:

    – Julian Assange will be taken to Westminster Magistrates court this afternoon. He has been arrested under a US extradition warrant for conspiracy with @xychelsea for publishing classified information revealing war crimes in 2010.

    It is now a crime to expose a greater crime.

    • glenn_nl

      Funny how state stooges and apologists never actually want to mention that. His “crime” was publishing an war crime – showing the casual disregard of life, and the virtual free-fire zone that was the country we had illegally invaded and were occupying, on the basis of complete and utter lies (i.e. WMD).

      No, no, no – let’s not talk about that. Let’s pretend the story only began well after that point.

      • Northern

        BBC news ‘time line’ for Assange literally begins with Sweden’s bogus charges, as though he was a non-entity before that. No mention at all of war crimes.

      • Clark

        Yes, stories in the corporate media always have some convenient point before which they do not venture, eg. Iran routinely is treated as a pariah state, but how many stories and ‘documentaries’ mention it was a democracy until Operation Ajax by BP, MI6 and the CIA to reinstate monarchy?

        • Andyoldlabour


          Apparently, BBC Persian admitted their role in the 1953 coup, although I have yet to see a documentary on any English channel about it.

          • Clark

            Well they’d have to, for their credibility locally. But that doesn’t mean they have to mention it in any western language, does it now?

            Makes you sick, eh? Brits think the BBC doesn’t carry adverts. They obviously haven’t watched it outside the UK, or heard of BBC Advertising. BBC is fully paid up corporate media.

        • Tom Welsh

          Or Iran Air 655 – very similar to Lockerbie and MH17, except that it was done calmly and deliberately by a US warship, whose captain, officers and crew were subsequently congratulated and decorated.

  • Stonky

    I go back to the point I made last week. JA should apply for asylum in the UK, on the basis that he has no chance of fair trial in the US. Senior elected officials there are on record as having stated in public that he should be assassinated.

    • Courtenay Barnett


      Part of a strategy, which the UK court would not uphold in Assange’s favour.

      Being a Publisher/journalist is where the real issue is; for that legal approach goes both to ‘freedom of expression’ in the UK/US and to the Constitutional point of the US First Amendment rights. Beyond that, the explicit political nature of the US extradition application is a significant legal point under the applicable international law principles related to extradition.

      The 2010 exposures relate directly to war crimes committed by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

      That seems to be the legal conspectus.

  • Republicofscotland

    One wonders if Assange’s almost certain extradition to the US could be halted under refoulement.

    • Courtenay Barnett

      Both International and EU law prohibit refoulement ( i.e. forcible return of an asylum seeker, who Assange is, where with delivering him to a country there would be persecution. In this case his lawyers would argue that that country is the US.)
      There are other questions which can come into legal play:-
      1. Did the prior Ecuadorian President confer ‘diplomatic status’ on Assange?
      2. Was such status revoked by the incumbent Ecuadorian President?
      3. Would considerations under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (1961) apply to Assange’s removal from the Ecuadorian Embassy in London on the 11th April, 2019?
      4. Here are other reference points:-

      i) The Chinese dissident case between China and the US in the Guangcheng case when the dissent sought refugee in the US Embassy in Beijing.
      ii) The Chinese case revolved around US/China negotiations wherein it was sought that international law be observed and that the dissident’s release also complied with those applicable principles of international law.
      iii) It was the International Court of Justice which in a similar case between Peru and Columbia, the Haya de la Torre case, had recommended negotiations between the two states involved.

      Comment: The 25th February, 2019 Chagos Islands case ( between the UK/ Mauritius) demonstrates the depths of international depravity the UK will descend to in both violating international law and turning a blind eye to established principles. In this case, it is anticipated, turning a blind eye so as to remain the poodle of America. Only in this case, there is much involved international scrutiny regarding fundamental principles of freedom of the press and freedom of expression; so since the eyes of the world are on this case – both UK and US international credibility ( initially the credibility of the entire UK justice system) will be put to the test.
      Assange’s case is therefore quite important.

  • Northern

    Moreno apparently stating he has written assurances from Britain that Assange won’t be extradited?

    Can anyone reconcile this with the US extradition request? I mean, we know what ‘assurances’ from the British state are worth.

    • Matt

      The one I saw said he wouldn’t be tortured or killed. I would wait until the news gets clearer.

    • pretzelattack

      if moreno says that, he’s just covering his ass “but…i had assurances”. this was obviously all scripted.

    • Jack

      Since the initial claim to arrest him is due a extradition request by the US (and sweden?) Moreno is lying, who can trust that man after this corruption?

    • Tom Welsh

      “Moreno apparently stating he has written assurances from Britain that Assange won’t be extradited?”

      Written assurances? WRITTEN assurances?? Written ASSURANCES???


      Written assurances from the British government… My God, that’s almost as hysterically funny as written assurances from the US government.

  • Clark

    A journalist has managed to get a photograph of Assange in a police van. He was handcuffed, but looking considerably more composed than when taken from the embassy, and giving a thumbs-up sign.

    Fortitude to Julian!

    Facebook seems to be restricting traffic on the subject of Julian Assange.

      • Clark

        Thanks Wonky.

        I’ve had quite a go at you in the past. If you get the chance, please read Goldacre’s Bad Science.

        • wonky

          Ok, noted.
          If you get the chance and could use some belly laughs, read Drummond’s/Manning’s “Bad Wisdom” 🙂

    • Tom Welsh

      “Facebook seems to be restricting traffic on the subject of Julian Assange”.

      There are many amusing aspects to this, if you have a taste for very bitter satire.

      Facebook – with its nauseating reputation for bias and one-sided censorship – is restricting traffic on the subject of Julian Assange (who committed the unforgivable crime of revealing the truth about the vile acts of governments).

      Well, they would, wouldn’t they?

      “Help! NO!! Truth!!! I’m M-E-L-T-I-N-G…”

  • John2o2o

    Julian was holding a copy of Gore Vidal’s History of the National Security State in his hands when he was dragged from the Embassy.

    My hope is that now this chapter of Julian’s life is ended he will be able to get medical treatment.

    I think the US and UK regimes probably want Julian’s case to be processed speedily. I think it vital therefore that his supporters and legal team do their best to slow them down.

    On a positive note it is worth remembering that Kim Dotcom has so far successfully resisted extradition to the US from New Zealand for many years.

    • Tom Welsh

      “My hope is that now this chapter of Julian’s life is ended he will be able to get medical treatment”.

      Yes; even they can see that it wouldn’t look good if he were to die in their custody.

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