Conspiracy Theorists, Why is Westminster Lifting All COVID Restrictions?


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  • #78359 Reply
    Steph

    Russia is indeed doing rather badly – and probably much worse than the official stats suggest. In fact, the more reliable ‘excess mortality’ stands at over half a million since the start of the pandemic, with only around 40% of that figure attributed to covid.

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/08/06/russias-excess-death-toll-passes-530k-as-delta-variant-hits-hard-a74721

    The other stat to bear in mind is that only a fifth to a quarter of the adult population is fully vaccinated, although there are now moves to make vaccines mandatory in parts of the country, including Moscow. Evidence suggests that the SputnikV is at least as effective as any other, but vaccine ‘hesitancy’ is rife – for various reasons.

    https://www.cnet.com/features/why-russias-covid-deaths-are-peaking-a-year-after-its-vaccine-was-approved/

    #78372 Reply
    ET

    Nice to see you again Steph. I hope all is well and thanks for the links.
    I’ve not been looking at Russia closely but now that I look at excess mortality it appears they escaped the excess mortality of the first wave but in subsequent waves they had higher excess mortality compared to European countries, UK and Ireland.
    https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
    SputnikV vaccine is still under review by both the EMA and MHRA and I am not sure if that’s because of politics or a failure on the part of the manufacturers. Not that it is required as urgently now (in EU/UK/Ireland) because it seems most of these countries have enough vaccine supply. I am sure it’s needed elsewhere in the world. I read that Ireland has an available supply chain of 17 million plus vaccine doses with a population of 5 million approx and most already vaccinated. I’m not sure how I feel about that.

    #78436 Reply
    michael norton

    I am afraid I can not fully understand this

    “Sanofi said the read-out encouraged it only to pursue the technology as a potential vaccine against influenza and other diseases, giving up on the area of COVID-19 because of the strong market presence of the two approved mRNA shots.”

    https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210928-france-s-sanofi-halts-work-on-mrna-covid-vaccine-amid-rivals-success

    #78550 Reply
    Clark

    “I am afraid I can not fully understand this”

    Neither can I. I expect it doesn’t quite make sense. I think “read-out” should read “results”.

    As best I can work out, Sanofi were developing three types of vaccines – mRNA vaccines against covid-19, mRNA vaccines against seasonal ‘flu, and an “adjuvanted recombinant protein vaccine” against covid-19.

    Of these three, they decided to drop the mRNA vaccine against covid-19, “because of the strong market presence of the two approved mRNA shots” – ie. their Phase I/II results indicate that their mRNA vaccine against covid-19 has no decisive advantage over the existing ones from Pfizer and Moderna, so they’re concentrating their resources on their other two approaches instead.

    #78560 Reply
    michael norton

    20 Jul 2021

    “Europe’s drug regulator said on Tuesday it had started a real-time review of the COVID-19 vaccine developed by French drugmaker Sanofi and the UK’s GlaxoSmithKline, the fifth shot currently under such a review.

    The decision to start the “rolling review” of the vaccine, Vidprevtyn, was based on preliminary results from lab studies and early stage clinical trials in adults, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) said.”

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/20/eu-begins-real-time-review-of-sanofi-gsk-covid-19-vaccine
    The agency’s rolling reviews are aimed at speeding up the approval process by allowing researchers to submit findings in real time before final trial data is available.

    Sanofi said other rolling reviews of its vaccine were also about to start in the UK, Canada and Singapore, as well as with the World Health Organization.

    Vidprevtyn uses the same technology as one of Sanofi’s seasonal influenza vaccines. It will be coupled with an adjuvant, a substance that acts as a booster to the shot, made by GSK.

    The four vaccines with EMA authorisation in the EU are Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson.


    [ Mod: Once again you fail to distinguish between quotations and your own comments. A check reveals that all of these sentences (both above and below the URL) are quoted directly from the linked news article. ]

    #78561 Reply
    michael norton

    Is it not a bit late to be developing covid vaccines in/for Europe?
    About three quarters of the population of Europe has already been vaccinated.
    There must be about a dozen vaccines world wide that are currently being used to prevent covid?
    Would it not make more sense to tweak a proven covid vaccine, so it targets Delta?

    #78568 Reply
    ET

    I don’t know how much of a tweak can be made without necessitating that a vaccine must go through the whole validation process again beginning with phase one clinical trials. The flu vaccine is altered on a yearly basis but that is only altering the already verified constituents of it. If a change is made to the actual antigenic part of a vaccine that would have to be shown to work and not signficantly increase side effects and/or complications.

    “Is it not a bit late to be developing covid vaccines in/for Europe?”

    Competition is healthy. The more vaccines available the cheaper they may become and I don’t think they have only Europe in mind. The EMA is the regulatory agency involved for Europe but I assume they are applying to other regulatory agencies around the globe.

    #78577 Reply
    michael norton

    ET

    in the United Kingdom we were quick off the starting blocks designing a covid vaccine and then deploying.
    Why does the U.K. currently have the second highest daily number of covid cases in the world, after the U.S.A.

    #78608 Reply
    michael norton

    Although ET and Clark have attempted to explain to me, I still can not get it.
    The U.K. has the second highest covid deaths in Europe, after Russia |¦|
    but Russia is a vast country with a much bigger population, but Russia also have less deaths per million.

    Putting Russia to one side, the U.K. seems to be the stand out bad boy.
    More deaths and a ludicrously high daily rate of covid positive cases, yet we rolled out vaccination, first.

    So, why are we seeing daily positive cases in the U.K. multiple times higher than in other E.U. countries?

    #78615 Reply
    Clark

    Michael, I don’t know the answer to your question. In different countries there are different degrees of testing, and tests are targeted in different ways. There are different proportions of the population vaccinated, with different vaccines. There are differences in population density, social behaviour, and numbers of people sharing accommodation.

    I take little notice of differences of a factor of five and less, because differences of a factor of fifty and more are quite common.

    #78629 Reply
    michael norton

    The countries of Eastern Europe are taking off like rockets.
    Look at Romania, as an example.

    #78641 Reply
    Clark

    Numbers are going up fast because the number of people infected is large.

    Exponential growth has that characteristic shape in the cartoon linked above, but the growth rate as a proportion is constant throughout. The left-hand end of the graph looks tame whereas the right-hand end looks very scary, but it’s all the same rate of growth, eg:

    1 person infects 2
    2 people infect 4
    4 people infect 8
    8 people infect 16…
    32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384, 32768…

    The absolute numbers go up faster and faster, but it’s always doubling each cycle.

    If you’re interested enough, you could check the growth rate over time. Take this week’s figure and divide by last week’s. Then take last week’s and divide by the week before, and so on. The results are weekly growth rates; see how they vary.

    For a finer-grained inspection you can take today’s (ie. Saturday’s) figure, and divide by last Saturday’s. Then take yesterday’s figure and divide by last Friday’s. Then Thursdays, etc. etc. You again get weekly growth rates, but rolling day by day.

    Or you can do it the other way around. Look at today’s infection figure, and then see how many days you have to go back for it to halve. Then do the same for yesterday, or last week.

    Covid multiplies like crazy. I bet a lot of it is the weather getting colder and wetter making people congregate indoors and closing the windows, sharing air.

    #78657 Reply
    ET

    Reported by the FT and other news outlets:

    “The chief executive of the biotech behind the first Covid-19 vaccine has said a new formulation is likely to be needed by the middle of next year to protect against the virus as it mutates.”

    Referring to the current situation:

    “Booster shots seem able to tackle the main variants, Sahin said. But the virus will eventually develop mutations that can escape the immune response bestowed by the vaccine, he said, necessitating a “tailored” version to specifically target the new strain.

    “This virus will stay, and the virus will further adapt,” he said. “We have no reason to assume that the next generation virus will be easier to handle for the immune system than the existing generation. This is a continuous evolution, and that evolution has just started.”

    Continuous revenue for the forseeable future.

    #78720 Reply
    ET

    One of the last proponents of an elimination strategy New Zealand abandons plans for zero Covid. Sars-Cov-2 has beaten all countries’ attempts to eliminate it. What a shame, I feel a degree of sadness about this and hope the mitigation strategy doesn’t come back to bite us all. Hope for the best…………

    #78733 Reply
    Clark

    There’s still China, four Australian territories, and a number of islands I think. China in particular is nearly a fifth of the global population.

    #78743 Reply
    Pigeon English

    I am really confused and my thinking is like this;

    Vaccinated people do get infected and can infect others
    so
    Vaccination will not stop spreading but so far research points out that symptoms are less bad!

    Most westerners countries are going with that hope but NZ gave up test/trace/isolate of 2000 people and are going

    To implement Vaxx program in which many would not participate. In other words we have a problem to isolate 2000

    people but are fine with 10%-30% not to be vaccinated.

    Following video makes me think who takes it seriously

    It is CEO of Huawei reception on her return home.

    a) person handing flowers has full PPE(Hazmat suit)

    b) It looks like to me that all present have “proper masks”( N95 or N99)

    #78744 Reply
    michael norton

    I think the United Kingdom has plumped for Herd Immunity.

    #78777 Reply
    ET

    A Lancet paper detailing analysis of Pfizer vaccinated people in California is highly suggestive that effectiveness at preventing infection wanes to 47% after 5 months though effectiveness against hospital admissions for infections with the delta variant for all ages was high overall (93% [95% CI 84–96]) up to 6 months.

    A potential limitation of the study, however, was a lack of data on adherence to masking guidelines and occupations in the study population, which could have affected frequency of testing and likelihood of exposure to the virus. That’s why I stated highly suggestive.

    It might explain the high numbers of infections in UK as one of the consequences of the earlier roll-out would be that more people are at the point where the effectiveness against infection (not hospital admission) has waned. Unlucky for the UK (and other early adopter countries) if that is the case. Might also mean those countries that vaccinated later have an increase in case numbers coming.

    A strong case for booster doses (which are being rolled out in UK for some).

    * Read the “Declaration of interests” towards the bottom of the paper, it was funded by Pfizer and other pharma companies AND the authors received research support from Pfizer during the conduct of this study that was paid directly to KPSC (a health care provider in USA).

    I don’t necessarily think the findings are suspect and are highly likely to be accurate but it is important to see who funded and supported the study especially as it will lead to more sales.

    #78803 Reply
    Clark

    Pigeon English, Oct 4, 19:14:

    “Vaccinated people do get infected and can infect others.”

    The current covid vaccines are what are known as “leaky vaccines”. By applying selection pressure they can encourage resistant strains. From 2015:

    Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens:
    Plos Biology, https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

    Two authors of that paper, including the lead author, write in The Conversation:

    Virus evolution could undermine a COVID-19 vaccine – but this can be stopped

    “The first drug against HIV brought dying patients back from the brink. But as excited doctors raced to get the miracle drug to new patients, the miracle melted away. In each and every patient, the drug only worked only for a while.

    – Could the same thing happen to a COVID-19 vaccine? Could a vaccine that is safe and effective in initial trials go on to fail because the virus evolves its way out of trouble? As evolutionary microbiologists who have studied a poultry virus that has evolved resistance to two different vaccines,” (the paper linked above) “we know such an outcome is possible. We also think we know what it takes to stop it. COVID-19 vaccines could fail – but if they have certain properties, they won’t.”

    The current vaccines have none of the “certain properties” described.

    That article also mentions viruses, including HIV, entering a “stealth mode”:

    “It would be better for human health, for example, if the virus evolves a stealth mode, perhaps by reproducing slowly or hiding in organs where immunity is less active.”

    Considering HIV, I do not understand the writers’ optimism that this would probably “be better for human health”. SARS-CoV-2 is already known to have stealth modes, one of them in nerve cells and brain tissue – this is why loss of sense of smell is a symptom of covid:

    Here’s Why COVID-19 Is Much Worse Than Flu – Infection Control Today

    (Note: Infection Control Today is a commercial “trade” healthcare magazine, not a peer-reviewed journal.)

    “Clinically, SARS-CoV-2 combines some of the properties of the seasonal flu plus HIV. Similar to the seasonal flu, SARS-CoV-2 can primarily attack the lungs. But ACE2 receptors are everywhere. Similar to HIV, the virus can also enter a stealth mode, silently spreading throughout the host’s body and attacking almost every organ, especially those with a high ACE2 receptor concentration. And similar to HIV, SARS-CoV-2 also frequently causes asymptomatic spread. In full stealth mode, SARS-CoV-2 can asymptomatically attack the vasculature and heart. Myocarditis can occur and the patient is totally unaware of the damage, until an arrhythmia or symptomatic myocarditis develops. In young asymptomatic patients, this is not an uncommon sequela.

    – SARS-CoV-2 targeting the cardiovascular system of the body should be a given. It has been known for a long time that ACE receptors are involved in cardiovascular regulation. […] Thus, there are multiple presentations of SARS-CoV-2 including pulmonary, cardiac, gastrointestinal (GI), and central nervous system (CNS).

    – Recently, there has been mounting evidence regarding the CNS effects of SARS-CoV-2. As early as July 2020, scientists were sounding the alarm regarding COVID-19 brain damage: Including temporary brain dysfunction, strokes, nerve damage and brain inflammation.”

    The article also points to a systematic review and meta-study (the highest levels of evidence in medical research) finding that the three most common long-term symptoms of covid-19 all suggest damage to nerve cells – of which the brain is of course composed.

    Airborne brain damage anyone? Covid-19 has not been and is not being taken nearly seriously enough by the world’s governments. So we have to protect ourselves.

    #78978 Reply
    michael norton

    U.K. seems to be going mental with covid, over 40,000 new cases on Thursday, way, wasy more than anyone else in Europe?

    #79025 Reply
    michael norton

    Not sure what is happening with Germany. They did seem to have rather low figures for covid positive and deaths, however, they shot up like a skyrocket, yesterday.
    Germany = 22,403 new cases
    Germany = 411 new deaths.

    The U.K. figures make grim reading.
    U.K. = 40,701 new cases
    U.K. = 122 new deaths

    It is not over yet and the Autumn weather is still hot and sunny.

    #79035 Reply
    ET

    A piece in the Guardian reflects some of the questions asked in this thread, Why is England doing worse against Covid than its European neighbours?.

    “While each country is doing its own version there are some common elements. Face coverings and vaccine passports remain widespread across western Europe. Anyone who has visited France over the summer will have seen the routine use of the TousAntiCovid app in bars and restaurants. Masks are required in indoor public spaces and public transport in France, Germany, Portugal, Italy, Spain and elsewhere. Yet in England these measures will only be implemented if the government moves to its “Plan B”.”

    “Many countries have also made major investments in ventilation and filtration, while some have made CO2 monitors compulsory in certain settings, such as hospitality venues.”

    I don’t want to quote the whole article and I don’t know that they are correct as to the reasons but it is worth considering.

    #79040 Reply
    Clark

    michael, maybe you should check the weather reports, public holidays etc. – things that affect social behaviour. What drove Germans indoors in the last week?

    Personally, social behaviour is all too complex and convoluted for me to address. Most governments have abandoned social control measures and put all our eggs into the vaccination basket. But we know what works on the levels that we can affect – get vaccinated, ventilate, avoid groups in enclosed spaces, look after our general health.

    #79057 Reply
    michael norton

    07/10/2021
    Germany = 22,403 new cases
    Germany = 411 new deaths. This is what they said yesterday, it has been changed
    so today, for yesterday they are now claiming
    +22,403 new cases
    94,585 total deaths
    +86 new deaths

    Maybe some of the dead came back to life?

    #79090 Reply
    michael norton

    This socioeconomic view of Long Covid is rather frightening.
    https://www.rt.com/shows/alex-salmond-show/536732-long-covid-trade-impact/

    From these two experts of economics on the Alex Salmond show, they seem to imagine that the long term effects of covid on the World Economy will be a greater loss than the critical stage. People are frightened, people have committed suicide, more people have experienced mental episodes and many will not get back to full economic activity soon or perhaps ever.
    Big impact especially in physical jobs, such as construction.

    #79092 Reply
    michael norton

    Glasgow

    More than 500 cases of Covid-19 have been linked to the TRNSMT music festival, new data shows.

    About 50,000 people descended on Glasgow Green for the three-day event last month!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58847481

    next up in Glasgow
    COP26

    HOME

    super-spreader here we come.

    #79120 Reply
    Clark

    “This socioeconomic view of Long Covid is rather frightening.”

    This may help explain the current fuel shortages. There have always been a far greater proportion of people left with long-term damage from covid than there have been fatalities. It affects the nerves, and thus the brain, and this debilitates the working population, particularly the older and thus more senior, more experienced members. This is why I have always promoted social restrictions. Taking an example close to home, Boris Johnson always played the fool…

    “Build back butter, build back batter, build back bitter.”

    – Boris Johnson publicity clips.

    … but there are some things that a Prime Minister simply should not say, eg:

    “I’ve given you the most important metric which is, never mind life expectancy, never mind cancer outcomes, look at wage growth.”

    – Boris Johnson on the BBC

    I’m really not convinced that all of him came back from his encounter with covid.
    – – – – – – – –

    For decades our society has been obsessed with pushing death out of our awareness, individualism thriving on the pretence that we are immortal, pushing the old folk into “care homes” lest their presence remind us of our mortality. Covid brought a rude end to that, provoking in reaction an obsession with death statistics, which in turn blinded us to a far greater, more insidious danger.

    #79163 Reply
    michael norton

    Romania
    Eastern Europe is gaining covid cases, very quickly, especially Romania.
    Something which others previously said, different countries are at different stages of the pandemic.
    Even Poland which was doing so remarkably well is moving up, both in cases and deaths.
    Yet still Russia and the U.K. are stand-out bad cases.

    Maybe vaccinating children will slow covid?
    Next door to me everyone has covid, none had been vaccinated but three are schoolchildren

    #79185 Reply
    Clark

    J, I see you expect people to watch a one hour five minute video on a hosting service called Rumble. It seems a very odd venue for a scientific discussion, which usually proceeds by publishing papers to pre-print servers, thus provoking technical discussion by others in the field, and often culminates in peer review and publication in a scientific journal, of which there are many.

    I further note that this video is posted by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, who have their own channel on this “Rumble” thingy. This all seemed very odd, so remembering your taste for conspiracy theory especially in scientific matters, I looked up the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

    “The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association that promotes medical disinformation, such as HIV/AIDS denialism, the abortion-breast cancer hypothesis, vaccine and autism connections, and homosexuality reducing life expectancy. The association was founded in 1943 to oppose a government attempt to nationalize health care. The group has included notable members, including American Republican politicians Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and Tom Price.”

    I am of course familiar with partisan editing at Wikipedia, it being me that helped to expose Alisher Usmanov’s PR company’s sanitisation of his page and thereby provoking an industry review, among other incidents. So can you assure me that the above section is all lies?

    I further looked up Peter McCullough:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_A._McCullough#COVID-19_misinformation

    McCullough testified before a committee of the Texas Senate in March 2021, posted to YouTube by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, in which he made false claims about COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccines, including that people under 50 years of age and survivors do not need the vaccine and that there is no evidence of asymptomatic spread of COVID-19.

    – Posted on the Canadian online video sharing platform Rumble, McCullough gave an interview in April 2021 to The New American, the magazine of the conservative John Birch Society, in which he advanced anti-vaccination messaging, including falsely claiming tens of thousands of fatalities attributed to the COVID-19 vaccines. In May 2021 McCullough gave an interview in which he made claims about COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccines which were “inaccurate, misleading and/or unsupported by evidence,” including that survivors cannot be re-infected and so do not require vaccination and that the vaccine is dangerous.

    J, can you explain to me why the assertions you help promote gain insufficient approval to make headway among the scientific community at large? Is it because the scientific community is essentially a conspiracy, consisting of a bunch of socialists, or worse, commies?

    #79187 Reply
    Clark

    J, I also find it disturbing that so many people seem so keen to give every advantage they can to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, encouraging unrestricted spread so it can hijack our cells and use as many of us as possible as hosts for its reproduction, adaptation and optimisation.

    My experience is that conspiracy theorists avoid discussion like the plague (though maybe modern ones would actually go out of their way to catch Yersinia pestis, or at least to get others infected), much preferring to post a link to their supposedly knock-out argument, or “devastating case” as you put it, and then run off without a further word. But since I’d rather not watch sixty-five minutes of what I strongly suspect to be carefully cherry-picked right-wing illness-advocacy, I hope you’ll be willing to prove me wrong.

    What claims does this video make? What evidence does it present to support them? And in which scientific papers (preferably meta-studies and/or systematic reviews) can readers find this evidence, so that they can examine it for themselves?

    #79203 Reply
    Clark

    I have now watched some twenty minutes of McCullough’s lecture. The first few minutes are merely McCullough going on about how great he is. After that, it is not sober, scientific assessment of facts; rather, it is notably frantic advocacy against covid-19 vaccination, interspersed with finger-pointing and accusations against the US medical authorities and government. It takes no account of the context, the serious and rapidly spreading pandemic, as if the only danger to be considered was vaccination.

    There is only so much of this stuff I can listen to; such arguments should be presented in a paper, with tables and graphs, not as a rapid-fire lecture with flashed-up and partial slides of other people’s articles, and political accusations interspersed. If McCullough were right, there would be many such properly presented papers either in the peer-reviewed scientific journals, or at least available as pre-prints. Unless, of course, the vast majority of the scientific community is colluding in some diabolical conspiracy.

    #79217 Reply
    J

    You haven’t seen the majority of the data, nor the argument and aren’t fit to comment, hence the innadequecy of your critique and the bizarre nature of your line of attack as though you had the full context of the argument from a few minutes.

    Several examples:

    Point 1.

    You say “It takes no account of the context, the serious and rapidly spreading pandemic, as if the only danger to be considered was vaccination.

    Several studies proving the efficacy of a number of treatments, as attested to by the WHO’s own work in India using Doxycycline and Ivermectin: https://www.who.int/india/news/feature-stories/detail/uttar-pradesh-going-the-last-mile-to-stop-covid-19
    Within five weeks of this WHO trial, cases dropped to just 22 in Uttar-Pradesh and nearly zero deaths despite 5% vaccination, compared to thirty thousand cases and two hundred deaths a day at the same time in Kerala, with 20% vaccinated.
    Your argument serves to illustrate that those who prevented treatment until cases were acute and specifically denied access to treatments like Ivermectin, those people actually condemned almost everyone suffering with Covid19 to death. Those who run interference for these authorities are also complicit in my opinion.

    Point 2

    You say: “it is notably frantic advocacy against covid-19 vaccination, interspersed with finger-pointing and accusations”

    As though this were the only criteria discussed or of relevance. Masses of studies and surveys are quoted, all of which can obtained, showing that not only are the so called vaccines demonstrated definitively to be unsafe, they are more or less ineffective, because these so called vaccines are driving mutation and rapidly become worse than useless. McCullough shows how these vaccines are the only possible candidate for having created the dominance of the Delta Strain in the USA for example. The data is persuasive.

    Presumably, you are arguing that having presided over such a disastrous policy, no attempt should be made to prosecute all of those responsible, against the advice of experienced scientists, epidemiologists and doctors around the world from day one. This advice was given and what came to pass was predicted from the begining. Best practice was ignored.

    Point 3

    There are several doctors notable for the fact that they ignored unreasonable guidelines and continued with best practice throughout the so called emergency, and did not lose a single Covid patient or did not lose one once a method of treatment was available. Several studies including those by WHO have shown the effectiveness of Vitamin C, Zinc, Vitamin D3, Ivermectin and Doxycycline.

    How does this fact not assume prevalence above all other facts in your narrative diatribe? Is it simply because health authorities and media (for their own reasons) are not only ignoring the community of doctors to have successfully treated large numbers of their patients without expensive and unsafe vaccines, but also ignoring the WHO who have also trialed these drugs and found them to be effective and so you must parrot their anti-science for them?

    Does there come a point where automatic resistance to data you cannot integrate becomes part of the block on effective treatment for Covid patients and thus indirectly responsible for the deaths you claim to care about?

    By the same token: the documented under reporting of VAERS hides the potential number of Covid Vaccine related deaths in the order of 1,700,000 at the present time, with several million more serious injuries in the USA alone.

    If we can expect broadly the same scale of death and injury in the UK (I personally know of three serious Covid related injuries among close friends and family) then we must ask, did those who most loudly exhorted and shamed us into unnecessary ‘vaccinations’ – remember effective treatment was potentially available almost from the beginning – do those people share culpability for those injuries and deaths or are they merely innocents?

    Point 4

    You say: “J, can you explain to me why the assertions you help promote gain insufficient approval to make headway among the scientific community at large?

    How would you know what is ‘at large’? Can you show me the figures for doctors who disagree with WHO sponsored treatments? Most of the argument has been censored for over a year and you continue to participate in the censorship. You have skin the game (your strong advocacy of the available Covid Vaccines) and are hardly an unbiased or reliable observer.

    Can you make a reasonable estimate from your detailed and comprehensive researches, globally a) how many doctors are treating all or most of their Covid patients successfully without requiring hospitalisation without recourse to the so called vaccines? b) how many patients have been treated with the treatments mentioned above? c) how many patients have been treated only with so called vaccines? d) how many of categories b) and c) have gone on to become a Covid case, require hospitalisation, experience severe symptoms or death?

    Do you even have accurate up to date data on percentage of the ‘vaccinated’ who die, are hospitalised or go on to contract Covid with severe symptoms? Do you have accurate up to date data on the percentage treated with the treatments mentioned above who die, are hospitalised or go on to contract Covid with severe symptoms?

    Both are addressed in the film you ignored.

    You say: “Is it because the scientific community is essentially a conspiracy, consisting of a bunch of socialists, or worse, commies?”

    Is this kind of crap worthy of a response?

    All your distractionary bluster aside, why do you think that your assessment of character is always the surest way to evaluate hard scientific data?

    Why do you feel that you alone can assess a few minutes from a detailed and coherent argument, constructed from many separate but interdependent arguments across a wide area of study, data and clinical experience, and with perfect clairvoyance predict what the argument contains in all of it’s parts? Clearly you can’t. Your characterisation is not only factually wrong, but trite and cynical.

    Your refusal to engage with more than a few minutes of contradictory argument suggests that you either do not understand the scientific method or you are happy to ignore science for some temporary ideological gain, even at the risk of continuing to advise people to take a seriously injurious course of action.

    If that makes you happy, then you have my profound sympathy as well as my utter contempt.

    #79218 Reply
    michael norton

    I heard on Radio Four this morning, that England is not vaccinating children quickly enough, we are far behind many European countries, it is thought that children have been forgotten?

    #79256 Reply
    glenn_nl

    There is a good podcast here, together with a transcript, about the “miraculous” drug Ivermectin, and the Trump-worshipping nutcases who (needless to say) all leap on this as the Great Conspiracy they knew it to be all the time:

    The Ivermectin hysteria has been whooped up by the usual right-wing media pundits – to every bit the same extent as these same characters have been downplaying Covid-19 itself, and energetically promoting pro-virus notions. Such as masks are bad for you, or do nothing. That the vaccines are all dangerous, they kill people and do nothing to stop the virus (which is harmless in itself in any case, don’t forget). They promote quack cures, the latest of which is Ivermectin.

    For more examples of these pro-virus propaganda points, see J’s post above. I did little more than skim it – there is no shortage of the usual conspiracists’ claims. It’s always “they” who are denying genuine cures, “they” are forcing vaccines and “they” are pretending Covid is much more serious than it actually is.

    Never once do conspiracy nuts like ‘J’ reference credible sources, because “they” run the credible sources and so it’s all a pack of lies and nonsense.

    I feel there is no possibility of reaching anti-vaxxer, Covid denialists – every one of them is completely beyond reason.

    #79260 Reply
    michael norton

    “Following one of Europe’s weakest vaccination campaigns, Romania’s health system nears collapse as a ‘catastrophic’ fourth COVID wave takes hold.”

    Yet they are not on our REDLIST?
    https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/10/10/photos-coronavirus-pandemic-fourth-covid-wave-rips-through-romania

    “Often ICU beds only become free because their previous occupants have died.

    Figures released on Friday showed the highest death toll of the pandemic reported in one day, with 385 people succumbing to the virus.”

    The focus is shifting to Eastern Europe.

    #79298 Reply
    Clark

    J, have you gone stark raving bonkers? You wrote:

    “Several studies proving the efficacy of a number of treatments, as attested to by the WHO’s own work in India using Doxycycline and Ivermectin:

    https://www.who.int/india/news/feature-stories/detail/uttar-pradesh-going-the-last-mile-to-stop-covid-19

    – Within five weeks of this WHO trial, cases dropped to just 22 in Uttar-Pradesh and nearly zero deaths despite 5% vaccination, compared to thirty thousand cases and two hundred deaths a day at the same time in Kerala, with 20% vaccinated.”

    But the link claims nothing of the kind! The link doesn’t even concern a trial, it’s about a test-and-quarantine campaign! Yes, we know that test-and-quarantine works. You wrote:

    “You haven’t seen the majority of the data”

    Indeed. That’s why I asked you to link it, which you have not! As I wrote, I couldn’t stand to listen through over an hour of self-promotion and partisan political advocacy from a homophobic, HIV denialist organisation, pausing to freeze McCullough’s slideshow, manually copy references to papers, search on the references, find full copies and search out the scientific discussion about them. If you have any valid scientific points, then it is your responsibility to find the scientific case or, if it is “censored” as you claim, compile it yourself from original papers. If you have checked McCullough’s claims, then you should already have those links, making it a simple matter to post them. That you haven’t suggests that you have merely swallowed McCullough’s claims without scrutiny.

    I shall answer a couple of your points as they are such obvious howlers:

    “McCullough shows how these vaccines are the only possible candidate for having created the dominance of the Delta Strain”

    This is obviously nonsense because Delta has become dominant everywhere it has landed, because it is more transmissible. You yourself linked to the WHO report of Delta being dominant where (you say) only 5% of the population were vaccinated!

    “the documented under reporting of VAERS hides the potential number of Covid Vaccine related deaths in the order of 1,700,000 at the present time”

    Simply go and check the shape of the “deaths from all causes” graphs; excess deaths have plummeted as mass vaccination has proceeded. As the US had some 600,000 deaths by the end of its second wave, we would expect to see a new peak nearly three times that if vaccination were as deadly as you (or McCullough?) claim.

    You seem not to have applied one gramme of critical thought. You haven’t checked a single one of McCullough’s claims, have you? You’ve just swallowed them whole because you like them. Go get your vax J; it’s only a pin-prick. There, there.

    #79300 Reply
    Clark

    Doxycycline? Why the hell should that help? It’s an antibiotic; they’re famously ineffective against viral infections – “please don’t pester your doctor for antibiotics to treat your cold”. I suppose it could help someone with severe covid if they’d picked up a secondary, bacterial infection.

    OK J, an easy one. You say McCullough referenced all the data, so find and link the paper(s) showing that doxycycline is effective against covid-19.

    #79302 Reply
    Clark

    Oh, another obvious howler now I come to think of it:

    “Most of the argument has been censored for over a year…”

    and yet:

    “Masses of studies and surveys are quoted, all of which can obtained,”

    Then it’s not censored, is it?

    You mean “censored on Facebook and YouTube”, don’t you J? I have news for you. Facebook and YouTube are social media, not scientific literature. They are not where scientists go to become informed within their fields, and they are not what governments base their medical policies on; governments have scientific advisors they ignore for that.

    #79317 Reply
    Clark

    J, Oct 11, 11:58

    “You have skin the game (your strong advocacy of the available Covid Vaccines) […] you are happy to ignore science for some temporary ideological gain, even at the risk of continuing to advise people to take a seriously injurious course of action.”

    Come to think of it, I haven’t particularly been advocating for vaccination. Have I? I’m sure I’ve been advocating for localism, societal compartmentalisation, and prompt but brief lockdown to enable trace, test and quarantine to more successfully suppress transmission. I seem to remember expressing my opposition to vaccine passports, my dislike of probably requiring ongoing periodic booster shots, expressing doubt about how effective mass vaccination might prove, expressing concern that new variants might render vaccination ineffective, pointing out that ethical problems with vaccinating children would weaken herd immunity, accusing governments of “putting all our eggs in their vaccination basket”, and posting a comment about the leakiness of current vaccines. I think my first direct advocacy of vaccination was my quip, posted after J misrepresented my position, yesterday at 23:40; “Go get your vax J; it’s only a pin-prick”, a personal jibe about disliking needles. I dislike them too, but I got my jabs; I seem to remember commenting that I did so “because it’s the only protection my government has left us with” or something like that.

    J? Is there something wrong with my memory? In which case please link. Or have you been proceeding upon assumptions you made?

    #79322 Reply
    Clark

    J, Oct 11, 11:58

    “Your argument serves […] Those who run interference for these authorities” [You are] “also complicit in my opinion. […] Presumably, you are arguing that […] no attempt should be made to prosecute all of those responsible. […]” [You are] “indirectly responsible for the deaths you claim to care about […] You have skin the game […] and are hardly an unbiased or reliable observer. […] you are happy to ignore science for some temporary ideological gain…”

    Ah ha! So I’m either an agent of the conspiracy, or a sheeple. You’re acting like a conspiracy theorist J, and I claim my five pounds!

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