- This topic has 1,208 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 1 week ago by Dave.
January 14, 2021 at 12:25 #64896Clark
Yes, Node. And how many people have been executed so far for opposing “the covid-19 narrative”?
(And what “narrative” is that, exactly? The testimony of doctors from all over the world? The graphs I cite as evidence?)
84,000 dead so far (oh, minus 14%, as per Steph). I hope you enjoy wearing your red arm band Node. I personally find your intellectual bullying highly offensive.January 14, 2021 at 12:40 #64897Clark
Node, I find your 11:37 comment unbelievably offensive. We have doctors contributing to this thread, who have worked themselves to exhaustion, risking infection themselves to save lives and ameliorate suffering. By insinuation, you have depicted them as murderous thugs. Words are inadequate to express my revulsion.January 14, 2021 at 13:15 #64903SA
Unlike the juvenile video from OffGuardian posted above, this article from the Canary is extremely relevant and should induce some soul searching especially from those who claim to be concerned about their neighbors and fellow citizens:
“We need to support each other
We do know by now that a lockdown comes at a massive cost. People’s mental health undeniably suffers, as more and more of us feel lonely, anxious and isolated.
So it’s up to all of us to think proactively about what we can do in our communities to help. All of us – anarchists, socialists and Covid-deniers alike – can agree on one thing: that the government has failed us. We can’t rely on it to look out for the most vulnerable people, so we need to continue to build the mutual aid networks that we formed during the first lockdown. We need to continue using our neighbourhood WhatsApp groups – or set them up – and check in with our neighbours. A sense of community will give people strength.”January 14, 2021 at 13:24 #64905ET
Node, 2+2=4, 4-2=2, 2 is 50% of 4. I used similarly basic maths skills to produce these small calculations using information from ONS 2020 weekly all deaths.
Would you check my calculations please to ensure that the fgures are consistent with 2+2=4?
Disregarding the cause of death for a moment I don’t think you can plausibly argue that the deaths didn’t happen. Assuming you agree that as given, please outline your explanation as to what might have caused the increases in deaths with a reference to the age groups I mentioned in that post. I ask this in particular for the 15-44 age group where there was an almost 5% increase in deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. At first glance 5% doesn’t seem that much but bear in mind that this age group has a very low risk of death in general. If say a cardiac surgery unit had 5% more deaths than the average or a maternity unit had 5% more neonatal deaths than average it would be a national scandal. (and has been).January 14, 2021 at 13:36 #64907glenn_uk
ET: I fear you are wasting your time, it is not possible to make a denialist see reason. The explanation will be along the lines of “The lockdowns caused the excess deaths!”. Pointing out that countries (like Sweden, the US) which did not have any meaningful lockdown also had excess deaths, will gain you the response “The figures are fixed! It’s all a hoax!”.
Every time you point something out, the conspiracy just gets a little bit bigger to include a negation of the inconvenient fact.
I heard a wise hillbilly in West Virginia pointing out something that evades rational people – you cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves into in the first place.
You will not get a denialist to see the thing they are denying. It has become too important to their sense of being, they have too much invested in it. Their heads have been in an echo-chamber of like minded denialists, their views have been reinforced too often.January 14, 2021 at 14:26 #64910node
ET, I think you are taking the video too literally. I am not challenging mortality statistics on this occasion – I may get into that discussion another time.
“2 + 2 = 5” is a metaphor for how authority can impose a belief system, even a ridiculous one. The majority don’t question the narrative for a variety of reasons that don’t necessarily imply stupidity or ignorance, a certain proportion will feel unease but ignore it for expediency or more complex reasons, a small few will speak out and be punished to deter les autres, and a further few will see it as an opportunity for advancement by displaying their willingness to embrace the new thinking. Very quickly, the new orthodoxy becomes self-policing.
Putting aside our differing opinions on covid, do you agree that this video portrays a real process by which authority implements and enforces its agenda?January 14, 2021 at 14:36 #64911ET
Perhaps Glenn, perhaps not. I still think it is worth the effort to try flesh out the basis for other people’s argument. It helps me to develop my own understanding and also hone my argument. It makes me check things out and research stuff I might not otherwise look into. If someone I encounter day to day makes similar arguments I have ready counter arguments. Although I doubt many people besides the contributors actually read this thread passers-by may see some of what is posted. (I could be wrong about that).
For myself Glenn, in the early 2000’s I got all my news from MSM. It was Clark’s favourite conspiracy theory (9/11) that made me realise there were alternative sources of news and information. Things are different in 2021 and it is easier for people to move away from only MSM sources but nonetheless sources claiming sensational conspiracies are a route by which people make that move. The same techniques of omission and comission used ny MSM to direct a narrative can be used by alternative news sites also. Sometimes it takes time to work out which are and which are not doing so. Equally it’s good to be challanged.January 14, 2021 at 15:34 #64916ET
“Putting aside our differing opinions on covid, do you agree that this video portrays a real process by which authority implements and enforces its agenda?”
I’d rather state a real process by which some authority CAN (and has in the past) implement and enforce it’s agenda but in general I agree with a concept that video is trying to portray albeit lacking subtlety. I would however say that Orwell’s 1984, Huxley’s “Brave New World” explore the same concept in a much more eloquent and nuanced way. That video says nothing new. That authority can slide into dictatorship isn’t a new observation. Also, to be clear, I don’t think it applies to the current pandemic narrative.
“ET, I think you are taking the video too literally”
“This video (suggested by the excellent Off-Guardian) exactly sums up my feelings about the covid-19 narrative.”
My reply was “half jokng, half in earnest” Node. As I am sure you realise I was deliberately being a little facetious.
I used to read off-guardian and they were reasonably good in some of their social commentary. I had to stop reading them because of the singular focus on trying to prove the pandemic a hoax. I try to read from across the spectrum but I gave up on them. They use the very same MSM techniques of commission and omission to, in my view, dishonestly make an argument. They are agenda driven and that drove me away.
Node, I don’t think you will get much disagreement from most here in regard to what you say in the main paragraph of your post at 14.26. Indeed that is why most will be reading Craig’s posts because he very often speaks to that and highlights the absurdities and abuse of power and the often pathetic MSM coverage. Such things are happening. That such is so however doesn’t rule out that a real and devastating pandemic is happening at the same time. Both things can co-exist. The majority of readers and posters here I suspect are very questioning of authority and very suspicious of authority and are concerned with the direction things are moving.January 14, 2021 at 16:11 #64919Clark
I’m going to have to stay away from this thread.
[ Mod: Sorry to hear of your reaction to items on this thread, Clark, but hang in there. New guidelines have been drafted which could help to resolve some of the ongoing issues. ]
I am finding it hard to frame words. Today I have been depicted as a thug who will murder to enforce compliance with a lie. I have not presented arguments based upon any “narrative”. Arguments I have presented are based on statistics collated from such broad sources that to deny them can only be described as conspiracy theory – vast conspiracy.
“I’m not a robot”January 14, 2021 at 16:21 #64921Steph
Clark. At no time have I EVER called you filth. Please stop doing this. You are right, take a wee break, and I hope you feel better soon.January 14, 2021 at 16:45 #64924ET
Clark, take a break if you need to. Remember, it’s the internet. Don’t take things personally. You are not responsible for other’s views, they are. All you can do is present your agrument even if you have to do it over and over again.January 14, 2021 at 16:52 #64927Steph
ET @14.36 What a rational, kind and well-considered response.
Re the 15-44 age group. Yes, it is clear to see that increase in excess deaths in this age range for 2020 in the ONS data, although 2019 was rather a lower than ‘normal’ year, the increase on 2018 was 3.2%, perhaps a little less than that when adjusted for age and population. One interesting thing I noticed is that age group seems to have taken rather a larger and longer hit in the annual blip normally associated with heatwaves in weeks 30-36 than other groups this year. This is apparent in the EUROMOMO graphs here
Other things of note are that, in europe as a whole, the excess deaths in the second wave are still only about 50% of those experienced in the first wave, and comparable to winter 2017/2018. Of course we are noowhere near the end of winter yet and I suspect the UK situation might be a little worse than europe as a whole right now.
Its good to keep scrutinising all the available info, and to look at things like different age groups and other illnesses, whatever one’s personal opinions are.January 14, 2021 at 18:17 #64939SA
“Other things of note are that, in europe as a whole, the excess deaths in the second wave are still only about 50% of those experienced in the first wave,..”
It is not surprising since we are getting better at treatment but the morbidity rate and hospital admissions are worse than the first wave already and will continue to rise. Fixation on mortality only misses half the picture.January 14, 2021 at 18:29 #64942Clark
Steph, no you’ve never directly called me filth, but with all the other accusations (plus the lavish emotional compliments for whoever provides any snippet that might be used to either belittle the severity of the pandemic or argue against social restraint), you may as well have done.
Yes, why don’t I take a break, eh? That’d suit you fine. Then you can drag those not familiar with the techniques of conspiracy theorists down into tiny details, generate some “controversy”, and you might entrain a few more followers.
Oh look, you’ve started already! See, it wasn’t the covid, it was the heatwaves! Despite ET’s original data being covid data.January 14, 2021 at 18:39 #64948Steph
‘Fixation on mortality only misses half the picture.’
Agreed, there are many many things that need to be considered. But morbidity is very much harder to evaluate though as I’m sure you know. Where it has been attempted there are difficulties, participants have often had at least one co-morbidity already, there is a range and variation in the severity of co-morbidities, there is some difficulty in connecting a given co-morbidity directly to covid-19 etc etc.January 14, 2021 at 18:41 #64949Clark
– “May I take this opportunity of wishing you and your moral high ground many years of happiness together and that you remain blissfully blinded to all else forever. “
January 14, 2021 at 18:43 #64951mods-cm-org
- This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by modbot.
Just so you know, Clark, things are indeed going to change around here. New guidelines will be posted in the next few days. There is an allusion to the forthcoming changes in the latest response to Node.
Incidentally, Node is back on premod for continued violations and challenges. He was on a yellow card already, but kept on committing fouls and arguing with the referee.January 14, 2021 at 18:44 #64954Clark
– “but I do also get a very strong sense that those still clamouring for harsher restrictions now view themselves as ‘morally’ right, always an exceedingly distasteful attitude in my opinion”
No swear words necessary. NO WAY can 84,000 deaths be a moral issue, and anyone who treats it as such, well, “exceedingly distasteful”.
January 14, 2021 at 19:09 #64967SA
- This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by modbot.
“Agreed, there are many many things that need to be considered. But morbidity is very much harder to evaluate though as I’m sure you know.”
Sorry your assumption is wrong, I do know. I meant morbidity from the virus, when someone is admitted gasping for breath with a typical CT scan and clinical picture with a low oxygen saturation and perhaps needing ventilation; that is morbidity related to the virus – it is a very clear clinical picture. All those people admitted to hospitals all over the country and around the world are admitted because they have an illness called covid-19 whatever else they have; they would otherwise not be admitted in those huge numbers.
“Where it has been attempted there are difficulties, participants have often had at least one co-morbidity already, there is a range and variation in the severity of co-morbidities, there is some difficulty in connecting a given co-morbidity directly to covid-19 etc etc.”
Steph I am sorry to say but I think we are talking about different things here. The hospitals are full and those in hospital with covid-19 related admission are over 30,000 – an unprecedented figure.January 14, 2021 at 19:25 #64973Clark
Come on, only 84,000 deaths. Not enough! The hospitals are already more than full, more patients than the health service can ventilate. One last push, they’ll be gasping for breath without even palliative care, without even drugs to ease their parting. Come on, we can do it! Let’s encourage some more anti-mask demonstrations, some more unmasked, un-distanced “it’s all a fake” demonstrations. You wouldn’t want to be like that teacher, forcing a little boy to repeat a lie.January 14, 2021 at 19:28 #64974Steph
SA. Sorry, yes clearly we are talking about 2 different things. I thought you were talking about analysing the data.January 14, 2021 at 19:38 #64975Steph
This is all becoming insane. Perhaps we are all victims of lockdown.January 14, 2021 at 20:23 #64982Clark
– “The prevailing superciliousness, condescension, wrath and resentment of the primary contributors directed towards absolutely anyone venturing another opinion, misguided or otherwise, renders the thread purely a source of entertainment value to me.”
Yeah, that’s entertainment. The Jam, Youtube, 03:32.
– “Perhaps we are all victims of lockdown”
Yeah, anything but the pandemic.January 14, 2021 at 20:35 #64984Clark
I’d be staying home and minimising social contact at present even if there were NO rules, because it’s obviously the correct course of action in these circumstances. It’s common sense; “oh don’t get near me, you don’t want to catch what I’ve got”, we’ve all said it to each other for decades. But suddenly, when it’s serious enough for the government to say it too (albeit weeks late. Twice.), suddenly it’s cause for suspicion, and there’s no reason to believe it works. Funny, that.
And everyone who says the pandemic’s no problem, well, they’re just lovely, and very clever, and anyone who says it’s a hoax, well just say nothing, and anyone who links to data or describes the common symptoms, well they’re mean and nasty and rude and on a moral crusade.
Well I’m sick of it, and I’m calling it out.January 14, 2021 at 22:20 #64993Clark
Come on, I’ve been gone nearly two hours; no new comments about how mean, rude, supercilious, morally overbearing and just generally nasty I am? Come on, where’s your wartime spirit? There are old and sick people need to be deprived of medical treatment, they never deserved a life anyway. There are statistics to be discredited, common sense and changeable, uncertain science to be undermined with pages and pages of argument over details.
Chimneys. Bicycles. Yes I am a robot.January 14, 2021 at 22:26 #64994Clark
Where’s the little boy? I want to shoot the little boy.
Bridges. Crosswalks. Traffic lights. Buses. Traffic lights. Fire hydrants. I’m not a robot.
[ Mod: CAPTCHA says it would offer you a cup of tea if it had one in its database. ]January 14, 2021 at 23:44 #64999Clark
So here comes my latest bullet for an innocent boy’s brain.
COVID Imact @CovidSerology
– Manaus has now surpassed the very tragic 26 April 2020 burial record of 167 with 198 burials in the past 24 hours (13 Jan 2021) for a total of 1486 burials in January with 50% higher ICU occupancy than in April. Hard to see how Manaus avoids crossing 5k pandemic-related excess DPM (deaths per million).
All lies, of course, caused by Bill Gates’ underlings like me threatening “scientists” with firing squads. And that’s how fibre-optic communication, GPS, contraceptives and colour flat screens were developed too; they’re all just hoaxes.
Well done Steph; it did take you a few weeks, but I’m posting more than just data now. Yes, I do have feelings too.January 14, 2021 at 23:49 #65000Clark
Oh and I spoke to a “friend” this evening (not that anyone as obnoxious and moralising as me as me has any real friends), she has a contact in Southend hospital. They’ve had to reduce the oxygen to 88% because they have so many patients that they can’t supply 100% to all that need it.
But of course they’re just saying that or Bill Gates would have them shot.January 14, 2021 at 23:53 #65001ET
I’ve looked at the euromomo page and it’s interesting. For some reason I had thought I’d read that their data didn’t include UK and Ireland. I was wrong. Anyhow. You can do a bit more fiddling with their graphs. From age 45 up the graphs are almost identical. The 15-44 age group does show a smaller increase. I am not sure how they define “substantial increase” but I am guessing it is related to standard deviations. I couldn’t find their explanation on the site. I am sure it is there somewhere though. The deaths for 0-14 age group are lower in 2020. I wonder if that is related to schools closing and less kids being involved in accidents.
“Other things of note are that, in Europe as a whole, the excess deaths in the second wave are still only about 50% of those experienced in the first wave,..”
Yes but is more protracted and there will be adjustments to the end of the period because of late registrations etc.
” there is some difficulty in connecting a given co-morbidity directly to covid-19 etc etc.”
I think (and may well be wrong) that Steph is referring to the mechanism by which a co-morbidity causes a greater susceptibility to serious disease. As an example, they still haven’t worked out by what mechanism diabetes makes people more susceptible apart from the generality that diabetes makes just about any disease worse.
Started this post like 3 hours ago but got interrupted frequently. I’m not a robot either but some of those CAPTCHAs are hard 😀 Request localisation of CAPTCHA, all those photos are from USA. What is a fire hydrant?January 14, 2021 at 23:56 #65005Clark
Come on Steph, aren’t you going to say “but surely 100% oxygen is toxic”, just to get a bit of doubt in there, like the bloke who saw the mortuary must have had a faulty memory? Well I’m no specialist, but she must have meant 88% of whatever they normally use, OK?January 15, 2021 at 00:06 #65012Clark
– “Perhaps we are all victims of lockdown”
No. I’m a victim of a weeks-long emotional tirade. Node could tell you; this happened to me on the 9/11 thread when I came under sustained personal attack from multiple commenters, though he’ll pitch it as me “trying to get the thread closed down”, even though I’d reopened the thread multiple times and it was actually him that appealed to the mods to have me censored.January 15, 2021 at 07:01 #65018SA
When I wrote about morbidity I meant that as a medical term which is the burden of disease caused by COVID-19 and obviously as a layperson Steph though I was talking about pre-existing co-morbidities in patients who also had COVID-19 which explains the confusion.January 15, 2021 at 13:33 #65028glenn_uk
Steph: I can understand why Clark is upset at you, actually. To you, this is an interesting little debate which should be conducted in a polite manner. What about this? What about that? Isn’t this curious? Why should that be then? With the default position being, everyone else is taken in with this ridiculous hoax that the entire world’s medical, political, media, civil service, social authorities is perpetrating – even the undertakers must be in on it. All at the behest of – you fill in the rest.
What you are doing is causing doubts, giving people license to abuse the rules intended to stop this pandemic. That is not polite, and people understandably get annoyed. You – personally – are responsible for a lot of harm, from the deaths of innocents, to the abuse of shop workers trying to suggest that people follow the rules, to medics literally working themselves to death trying to stop it.
Why you personally? Because you – and Node, and Dave, and everyone like you – are helping spread falsehoods, nonsense, lies, and encouraging deadly behaviour. Every time you pop up with your silly little articles and give them further readership. Every time you encourage liars and lunatics when they tell others there’s nothing to worry about.
I wonder if you did this about smoking? There was a whole industry, the merchants of doubt, dedicated to making people skeptical about the dangers of smoking. Did you think it cute to take their side, and so encourage people to carry on smoking? Do you also do this with climate change? Or is this the one thing on which you’ve decided it would be really clever to be a contrarian.
Maybe you think it’s clever to call all medics and authorities liars, and call people like me stupid, gullible sheep, while endangering society. How dare you. That is not polite.January 15, 2021 at 13:50 #65029SA
And also Steph, the fact that you stated that you come here just for entertainment value was something that I personally also found offensive. If you are asking genuine questions about a very serious life and death situation, you don’t also just want to be entertained.January 15, 2021 at 15:38 #65036Clark
But the ultimate responsibility does not lie with Steph and the other contrarians. All of us have been immersed lifelong in a political and media environment that we know cannot be trusted (WMDs in Iraq?), but at the same time subconsciously inculcates certain attitudes. Here is an example:
- Report on face masks’ effectiveness for Covid-19 divides scientists – Guardian
- Experts clash over research into efficacy of public wearing even homemade face coverings
- “A row has erupted among scientists over a new report into the use of face masks by the general public”
How did the Guardian find this “division”, “row”, “clash”, “eruption”? Did a reporter walk into some university and find a load of scientists shouting at each other? Did some scientists hear that the Guardian had an article coming out, and phone the Guardian switchboard as a matter of urgency? Or is it more likely that some Guardian writer ‘phoned around some universities to find some “human interest”, to secure some “column inches” and the associated payment? No matter. How about this one:
- Coronavirus: should everyone be wearing face masks? – Guardian again.
This time, just to make the point, we have a face-to-face in red and blue circles to make our “scientists” look like gladiators! I could cite hundreds of examples, and we haven’t even descended to the gutter tabloids yet. Remember it was Delingpole of the respectable broadsheet Telegraph who gave space to Yeadon. Dave thinks that some pathologist or whatnot that the Daily Mail has run several articles from is “the expert” to be trusted.
Is it any wonder that Steph thinks that “science” is “divided” and “changeable”, and can all be dismissed as “opinion”?
When did the corporate media ever tell us that evidence is what matters rather than “experts”?
And in the realm of conspiracy theory, the corporate media (with their near universal reach) inculcate by example. Media Lens have an excellent article on this:
Last week, Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens tweeted on the use of face masks:
“the primary purpose of enforced muzzle wearing in public spaces (which protects nobody against anything) is to humiliate the wearer and make him or her accustomed to unquestioning obedience to authority”.
This was indeed a conspiracy theory – literally, and also, in our opinion, in the deranged and dangerous sense commonly used by journalists.
Remarkably, Hitchens was suggesting that governments around the world have ordered the public to wear face masks as part of a vast global conspiracy, presumably involving thousands of professional scientists, to train us in obedience to authority. Perhaps Hitchens also believes that the enforced wearing of seat belts in cars and on planes is part of the same sinister plan ‘to humiliate’ democratic citizens ‘and make him or her accustomed to unquestioning obedience to authority’.
Why, that’s exactly what Dave has claimed on this very thread! Yet Dave is no sheeple who’d shoot a little boy in cold blood to force him to conform to a lie! No way; Dave has seen right through the “MSM”. And he isn’t the source of the “superciliousness, condescension, wrath and resentment” either.
Because the corporate media indoctrinates subconsciously, I have to assume that I’m susceptible too; I wouldn’t be conscious of it, that’s what “subconscious” means. I therefore simply won’t have it in my house. No telly, no radio, no newspapers, no browsing from corporate media homepages. I’ll follow a link; that’s how I found the Guardian examples above. But I won’t let the corporate media set the agenda.
Instead I inspect the evidence, and check that the scientific consensus is consistent with it. And nearly always, it is.
Entertainment by Frank Zappa:
January 15, 2021 at 17:14 #65053glenn_uk
- “I’m the slime oozing out from your TV set” – YouTube, several minutes.
You’re giving these denialists way too much credit, Clark.
It’s not as if they’re all confused by a “debate” between scientists that they’re following, or pondering the efficacy of home-made masks compared with factory produced – they’re pretending that the _entire thing_ is a gigantic hoax and nobody is actually getting ill and dying with Covid at all!
The hospitals are all empty really, didn’t you know? We’ve simply got people dying of old age, and obese smokers keeling over with heart attacks, and the crooked doctors sneakily stamp “COVID-19” on the death certificate. Maybe they did have Covid, but it’s such a mild disease (“a little flu”, perhaps) that they didn’t notice before dying of something completely unrelated.
All this, so that Bill Gates can have his killer vaccines… Agenda-21…. the “Great Reset”… pharmaceutical giants… government control… cull the population – take your pick.
No, they don’t have to believe any of that stupid, self-contradictory rot, spread it around, encourage others to behave recklessly, and basically be working on behalf of the virus. They are entirely to blame for their own behaviour, and they are largely to blame for the mess we’re in.January 15, 2021 at 18:28 #65059Dave
He’ll be alright, its the same tactic Clark has been using for years.
[ Mod: You reckon Clark’s expressions of distress are insincere, and he’s not genuinely distressed? So you’re prepared to press forward with your taunts regardless?
That seems to parallel your approach to the Covid situation, and it says a lot about your *****pathic personality type. ]January 15, 2021 at 19:13 #65070Dave
What do you mean telepathic?January 15, 2021 at 19:16 #65071SA
Dave has not contributed usefully here and his only contributions have been to push his pro Trump agenda. He, like some of the others show lack of compassion which is part of the Covid denial.January 15, 2021 at 19:53 #65072glenn_uk
Further to my last note, Clark – consider that these denialists are not just getting mixed messages and aren’t sure what to think. They actively look for disinformation and promote it. Having had numerous false claims shot down, which obviously takes far more work than promoting their nonsense did in the first place, they don’t pause for thought. They never admit it was wrong. No – they just look for more, and repeat, repeat, repeat.
This is what happened as Squonk’s. When Null Node took a break from disparaging the intelligence and mental health of people who disagreed with him, he challenged Squonk time and again with every bit of pseudo-science and denialist propaganda he could get his slippery hands on. Every single claim Null Node made was comprehensively debunked by Squonk with solid references, but it made no difference. NN had started out with a presumption which never changed in the slightest. In the end, Squonk couldn’t take it anymore and called NN out as being “a fucking psychopath” before shutting down that site altogether. And Null Node would do the same here if he got the chance.
Perhaps John Major was right when he said at times, one needs to condemn a little more and understand a little less. These freaks, denialists, contrarians – they are costing lives for nothing more than their own amusement and self indulgence.
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