New Labour’s Franco Adventure

by craig on November 7, 2012 7:52 pm in Uncategorized

My friend Mike Arnott of Dundee TUC has done more than anybody to record the story of the outstanding Dundonian contribution to the early war against fascism; seventeen men from Dundee died in the International Brigade.

I wonder what they would think about the alliance between the right wing Spanish “Popular Party” and the Tories plus, reportedly, New Labour to plan a demand for the expulsion of an independent Scotland from the European Union?

New Labour’s commitment to keeping Trident in Scotland, to ending free prescriptions and to imposing university tuition fees makes it, I suppose, unremarkable that they would feel comfortable in this company.

The Tories have today denied that they have made any formal deal on a united front against Scottish and Catalonian independence, while acknowledging that meetings between the Scottish Tories and the Popular Party have taken place. (To discuss what else, one wonders? Property prices on Tory retirement homes in Spain?)

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151 Comments

  1. patronsaintofcats

    7 Nov, 2012 - 8:24 pm

    Between this and the latest from the chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee (Labour’s Ian Davidson)calling for partition of Scotland post-independence, the Scottish Independence debate gets more and more bizarre:

    http://tattie-scones.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/labour-mp-ian-davidson-calls-for-break.html

  2. Beyond belief. They must think we’re going to win the referendum if they’re planning their retaliation already.

    I was of some little service to the sculptor who made this piece (I had friends who were welders). ¡No Pasarán!

  3. The Unionist trump card after fearmongering is of course sectarianism, on the Northern Ireland model. The climate for the RC minority has been such that wholesale migration/ethnic cleansing of a wedge, eastwards, from Ayrshire, through Renfrewshire, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Lothian has already taken place. Jobs For The (Billy) Boys. Not so much the dregs of the Orange Lodges, but the Masonic lodges are the nerve centres of the networks driving this.

  4. Craig,

    This explains a lot.

    “During the Vietnam War, Sweden was an independent country with a moral conscience, and Sweden gave sanctuary to US war protestors who refused the draft. Washington realized the cost to itself and purchased the Swedish government in order to prevent a reoccurrence of moral conscience on the part of any Western government.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/09/10/the-declining-west-tragedy-comedy-paul-craig-roberts/

  5. willyrobinson

    7 Nov, 2012 - 10:43 pm

    Everyone here in Catalonia is watching the Scottish situation very closely, to the extent that would no doubt surprise the average Scot. Nothing about this secret deal surprises me – the dark forces of Unionism are hard at work here too.
    .
    At least we’re allowed to get news from Scotland – every news agency in this country is pretending nothing is happening in Greece…Which is Rajoy’s style – simply pretend the internet doesn’t exist.

  6. @ Craig,
    “New Labour’s commitment to keeping Trident in Scotland, to ending free prescriptions and to imposing university tuition fees makes it, I suppose, unremarkable that they would feel comfortable in this company.”
    You, more so than the average poorly informed member of the sheeple, are well aware that there is little real difference these days between the Labour and Conservative parties on the major issues. The policy approaches hardly differ and these days the directions that they head in during their tenure do not diverge. Bears great similarity as with the Democrats and Republicans in the US. The subterfuges of the parties are really variations on the same theme of deception and corruption.

  7. PERFIDIOUS ALBION

    > New Labour’s Franco Adventure

    Something like Maggie’s Desert Island Discs pick? –

    – Comic Relief Special – English –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p_0cayp5s0#t=00m37s

    (ER, Shome mistake shurely? / Shurely you can’t be serious? etc Ed.) –

    – “I am serious and don’t call me Shirley.” – Airplane –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo7qoonzTCE#t=00m08s

    TORY (AND NEW LABOUR ?) B’STARD MP

    Hague’s Assange Ecuadorian Embassy near-invasion –

    > Were the UK(‘s US Empire) Poodles today as duplicitous as during the last eight centuries they might themselves have ensured Julian Assange’s safe delivery to Ecuador … and then said “Oh, Sorry” to the US Empire and let the (Neo-Con Nazi wide-stance) US Empire Buggers lump it.

    > Maybe they need a reminder of how it’s done. Perfidious Albion – enter Alan B’Stard MP! –

    The New Statesman – ‘A Good Start’ (*) (ER, ‘Special’!) – Superb, but only in Spanish

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rywoDqqHfBI#t=00m44s

    (*) After What do you call a thousand US Empire Neo-Con Nazis at the bottom of the ocean? ; )

    There _was_ a reason that the old bat referred to New Labour as her greatest achievement. And it wasn’t for the good of the English or Scottish peoples.

    For the good of the English elite, the good of the US Empire elite and (possibly) the good of a few Scottish sell-outs to the English / US Empire.

    No change there, then!

    UK – US SLAVE RACE – WHO KNEW?!

    RAY MCGOVERN

    UK SUBSERVIENCE TO THE US EMPIRE

    “Ecuador’s move to grant Julian Assange political asylum has shown the true face of the current world order, highlighting more clearly than ever the line between the American Empire and the rest of the world, former CIA officer Ray McGovern told RT.”

    ‘Not even in the Cold War’s darkest days: International law scrapped in anti-Assange crusade,’ – Ray McGovern with RT, 16th August 2012 –

    http://rt.com/news/assange-asylum-cold-war-883/

    Previously –

    Robin Ramsay of UK Lobster points out that as the UK is now utterly subservient to the US, it has become absolutely taboo to mention this reality. But there is _no_ independent British government, there are _no_ independent government ministers and there will be no independent British government, or independent government ministers.

    The UK is as absolutely and completely occupied by the US Empire – whether by the Neo-Con Nazis of Obama or by the Neo-Con Nazis of Cheney – as France was in WW2, with almost no troops required!

    “Tell them we’re ‘Allies’ and they, apparently, just roll over!”

    – On Craig Murray interfering with the US War of Terror in Uzbekistan by pointing out that relying on the confessions of muslims being boiled to death on Tony Blair’s say so might not provide sound intelligence. And/or be illegal under British law …

    – On Lockerbie and the release of Libyan patsy al-Megrahi, rather than confim English and Scottish judicial integrity to be the utter farce that it is under the US Neo-Con Nazi Empire. Which fact was about to shouted from the rooftops to the world via al-Megrahi’s appeal.

    See Lobster #58, ‘The meaning of subservience to America’ – Page 87, Issue #58 –

    http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/issue58.php

    REAGAN AND THATCHER – ‘GONE WITH THE WIND’ – 80s AGITPROP POSTER

    Thatcher, Reagan and Reich-wing Fascists, using the methods of the Nazis. No change there, then! –

    – The ’80s agitprop ‘film poster’ of Margaret Thatcher in the arms of Ronnie Raygun, with a mushroom cloud in the background. (“She promised to follow him to the end of the earth. He promised to organise it!” “The most EXPLOSIVE love story ever.” “Directed by Hank Kissinger,” etc. etc. Back when Britain had a left wing. With teeth!) –

    http://www.vinmag.com/online/media/gbu0/prodxl/AP1063-gone-with-the-wind-anti-nuclear-poster-1983.jpg

    Or – http://tinyurl.com/83hvctt

    More – see comments to ‘America’s Vassal Acts Decisively and Illegally: Former UK Ambassador’ – Craig Murray, 16 August, 2012 – ICH –

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32198.htm

  8. A very succinct yet intuitive comment by Craig I thought. I get the feeling that Craig knows a little bit more about secret meetings than he is willing to admit right now.

  9. Rob Royston

    8 Nov, 2012 - 1:57 am

    Poor old Spain, once such a proud Empire. All they have left is the Scottish fisheries, gifted to them by blackmailed paedophlles.

    The best gift that an Independent Scotland could have is freedom from the EU and it’s deviant rulers.

  10. PERFIDIOUS ALBION – 2

    US (and UK) EMPIRE MURDER AND TORTURE TO DEATH

    John Stockwell put it as clearly as anyone could. –

    “I don’t mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your government and its agents are doing. They go into villages, they haul out families. With the children forced to watch they castrate the father, they peel the skin off his face, they put a grenade in his mouth and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.” These are not just words. It is also real. Real mothers. Real children. Real fathers. Real death.

    “We do not parachute teams into the Soviet Union to haul families out at night and castrate the father with the children watching, because they have the Bomb, and a big army, and they would parachute teams right back into our country and do the same thing to us – they’re not scared of us.”

    – Video – John Stockwell – “Third World War” – Forty years of Secret Wars of the C1A – 6 million killed –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y

    John Stockwell

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/John_Stockwell.html and

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

    ‘America’s Third World War – 6m to 20m Killed,’ by John Stockwell –

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm

    Wiki – excellent links – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stockwell

    Johan Galtung – the US empire has murdered 12m or 16m in forty years. “The difference is between overt murders and including covert murders by the US.” In illegal wars and genocides. –

    ‘How would we know that the Empire is dead?” – Johan Galtung –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRXmk7piHXY

    PSYCHOPATHS R’ US DEPARTMENT

    Duane Claridge of the CIA Department of Operations — ‘Torture, Murder and Genocide R’ US’ — reveals his inner psychopath to John Pilger – Gunning down protesters – Same old same old – John Pilger – Torture, Murder and Genocide is _so_ American – War on Democracy –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5L1VdlktOw#t=00m40s

    Witness to summary executions by US forces in Panama – Tell US that this didn’t happen, is not happening today in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Egypt. Because reports say that is _exactly_ what is happening. – The Panama Deception. – @ 45.08

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfWz20nDAyI#t=42m27s

    Venezuela coup – US coup elements assassinating protesters with high-powered rifles and claiming that it was the Chavez government firing on their own people. No change there, then!

    – Also notable are the ultra-right wing — barking mad / lying-through-their-teeth — TV stations who claimed that the Chavez government was firing on their own people.

    John Pilger’s War on Democracy documentary cuts away to show that those firing on the crowds were elite police units — part of the coup –, assassinating civilians so that the right could blame it on the Chavez government. The crowd is firing back at empty streets and the coup’s gunmen. The right wing N_zis cut the TV footage to show the opposite, naturally. As seen in every US coup since forever … (Teheran’s Neda for one). –

    @ 23.00 – John Pilger’s ‘War on Democracy’ – Vimeo –

    http://vimeo.com/16724719

    UP THE USUK EMPIRE

    http://www.amazon.com/Anne-Taintor-Inc-01440-Magnet/dp/B003MZ1P4A/

  11. PERFIDIOUS ALBION – 3

    Your near neighbours’s history offers a few pointers for how independence is gained. The, ER, traditional method. –

    – Gratuitous GPO 1916 clip – ‘Michael Collins’ –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq7bcY9tuao#t=01m52s

    – Get Collins – The Intelligence War for Dublin (*2) –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klBhafk463E

    “You may not like the IRA, but they are the reason you are writing from Dublin, Ireland and not Dublin, UK.” HA! –

    Of course things have moved on since Michael Collins and Co. ‘invented a new form of warfare’. Now the Empire – US _and_ their UK satrap – get their (murderous / genocidal / torture-to-death) digs in first.

    As Craig Murray has told us about Uzbekistan. Where those rendered for torture have never been seen again. So they were rendered for extermination. USUK Nacht und Nebel.

    Is Scotland likely to have an easier time of it?

    See Afghanistan 1, 2, 3 (UK) and Iraq 1, 2 and 3 (UK) for a few clues!

    With the old genocidaire himself – Churchill – in favour of dropping poison gas by air to instill a healthy fear in the tribes of Iraq, circa 1920. –

    http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHU407A.html

    The odds that the UK elite will let Scotland democratically choose independence? ER, A Snowball’s chance in hell. imo.

    SO. Tiocfaidh ár lá – Scotland ? –

    Noam Chomsky on why some countries, and some groups, ‘get it’ and others have a much harder time. “The Irish Sea is a Chasm (of understanding). It all depends who has been living under the whip for eight hundred years and who has been holding it.” –

    Noam Chomsky – ‘Rebel Without a Pause’ – 911 – @ 51.00 –

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4366784807223792419#

    Tiocfaidh ár lá Scotland ; ) –

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiocfaidh_ár_lá

  12. Jonangus Mackay

    8 Nov, 2012 - 7:14 am

    Blair & University College London:
    .
    http://act.stopwar.org.uk/petition/9

  13. English Knight

    8 Nov, 2012 - 7:15 am

    Its important the Scots stick to a pre post Iran war referendum timing in order to carry the vote easily. Just the oil in the depleted fields that can now be exploited further with new tech, is by itself enough to found a very healthy Sovereign Fund for the 6m Scots, let alone a claw back of the producing oil fields demarcated to England by Anthony (Charles Lynton) Blair – the stooge easily recruited by the CIA, back at Oxford due to his “bad” public toilet habits.

  14. If following an independent, withdrawal from Europe may inhibit Scotlands ability to rehabilitate. From what I can see it will be a long hard withdrawal.

    But by fuck, it will be worth it.

    Get a job and do it!

  15. Jay: A classic Mad Mel. Congratulations and thanks for brightening my day.

    Uranus, for sure.

  16. The notion that the EU would expel an ‘independent’ Scotland is a bluff. It is nonsense.

  17. Re. topic: unremarkable that the Tories, having utterly fouled their nest in Scotland, should be seeking allies abroad. On the bright side, they obviously consider Scotland to be an asset worth retaining in their sphere of influence. Which supports the case for economically viable independence.

    I suppose also that, seeing the SNP connecting with other nationalist movements abroad, antinationalists are entitled to connect with antinationalists? Deplorable, but hardly devious…

  18. I see a parallel between the military overthrow of the Spanish Second Republic by Franco in the 30s and the right-wing coup in Chile in 1973. Both eventually gave way to democracy.

    There would be no point in Scottish Tories making a formal deal with Spanish nationalists, since it could not influence the electorate in Scotland but might backfire on Scottish Tory interests. As to what the discussions were about, preventing Spanish local authorities from confiscating retirement homes could well have been on the agenda, but not being wealthy enough to own a home, I wouldn’t know.

  19. I’m sorry Craig, you seem to be getting more and more fanatical over the independence issue all the time.

    Our politicians are corrupt? Tell us something we didn’t know. However there is an ex oil economist for the RBS who is just as corrupt as the rest of them but your rose tinted glasses seem to be preventing you from seeing that.

    We know that there were many brave Scots who fought against Fascism both in the Spanish Civil War and WWII, as there were many brave English. There were also people like Douglas Young and Arthur Donaldson all too happy to form an alliance with Hitler in the hopes of an independent Scotland should Germany win the war.

    We have two years to wait for a referendum and I am seeing more and more attempts to incite tribalist hatred of the English in an attempt to influence the vote all the time. I feel soon there won’t be enough distance between an SNP supporter and a BNP supporter to slide a postage stamp through.

  20. How can Scotland be expelled from the EU? It isn’t a member of the EU, neither is England.

  21. Pertinently, the actions the lab/con/fascists alliance propose would be following a ‘yes’ vote in the referendum i.e. against the democratically elected government of an independent sovereign nation, Scotland. Ergo we have Scottish politicians actively conspiring with representatives of a foreign power against their own country.

    I believe the dictionary definition of this would be TREASON!

  22. @Kempe : it’s of course not a matter of “expulsion”. The fact is that an EU memeber state breaking up would create a situation for which there is no precedent (in EU membership terms). As you know, Czechoslovakia broke up before the 2004 EU accesssions and the EU negotiated accession with two separate states (the Czech Republic and Slovakia). No doubt lawyers (including in the EU institutions) will be hard at work on this one in the months and years to come.

  23. Everybody of my generation must have known somebody who volunteered for the Spanish Civil War. Laurie Lee did not volunteer, but ended up in the midst of it anyway, recounted in ‘As I walked out one midsummer morning’. His other Spanish book ‘A rose for winter’ is an equally good read.

  24. “One of our recent presidents who was not rich ended up with $36 million shortly after leaving office, as did former UK prime minister Tony Blair, who served Washington far better than he served his own country.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/11/07/the-special-interests-won-again/

  25. resident dissident

    8 Nov, 2012 - 10:21 am

    Fred

    Couldn’t agree more – perhaps Craig forgets that Franco himself wasn’t beyond a little nationalism/jingoism. The historical precedents for nationalism and flag waving are not very good – and it is difficult to think of situations where they have led to progressive politics.

  26. The argument is whether an independent Scotland – which would be a ‘new’ state – would have to apply afresh to join the EU. I can see that there is an argument to be had; and rulings to be made. The supplementary question is just as interesting though: if the UK is split into two parts surely the remaining part – which is clearly no longer the “United Kingdom” – is also a new state in the same sense and it should not be clear that England, Wales and N Ireland should remain in the EU without reapplication. Now if that were the case, I can see Eurosceptics deciding to support Scottish independence because it could be a quick route to the departure of – let’s face it – England from the EU. It’s quite possible that after the decalaration of Scottish independence, the result would be Scotalnd in the EU and England (with Wales and N. Ireland) out because they have no stomach for the humiliation of reapplying.

  27. sorry to be off topic, but has anyone heard of this British Council story(at end of the article)…i can’t find anything online:

    8 Nov: Sun: What does Ripper know about Savile?
    More links between killer and paedo emerge
    Abuse sackings
    ***Two staff at the British Council charity have been fired in recent years over child abuse claims abroad, Ministers said yesterday.
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4633112/What-does-ripper-know-about-savile.html

  28. Oddie

    Probably as much “Truth” in there as there was in the Hillsborough headlines.

    Instead of speculating we should be waiting for the result of the official whitewash.

  29. @Guest That will be Clinton I suppose that Paul Craig Roberts writes about as having $36m after he left office.

    This is a good record of his activities in Haiti particularly after the earthquake and how he ripped the people off. Another psychopathic monster like his pal Tony.

    http://dissidentvoice.org/search/?cx=004699754223191941067%3Adjkep-0myaa&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=clinton+haiti&sa=Search

  30. And this grand theft too

    HAITI: Humanitarian Aid for Earthquake Victims Used to Build Five Star Hotels

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/haiti-humanitarian-aid-for-earthquake-victims-used-to-build-five-star-hotels/31646

    As some 500,000 Haitians still live in displaced camps, five star hotels are being built amid shanty towns.

    As part of the country’s “Reconstruction”, The Clinton-Bush Haiti Fund recently invested $2 million in the Royal Oasis Hotel, a deluxe structure to be built in a poverty-stricken metropolitan area ”filled with displaced-persons camps housing hundreds of thousands”. Royal Oasis belongs to a Haitian investment group (SCIOP SA) and will be managed by the Spanish chain Occidental Hotels & Resorts.

    /..

    By Julie Lévesque
    Global Research, June 28, 2012

  31. The scare mongering is reaching feverish proportions. That Scottish Labour is part of the disinformation campaign is beyond belief.They know why the fishing industry disappeared. they fought against it at the time.When the mines were shut down to curb the Unions, they fought against that.Scottish Labour were for scrapping Trident. A naval base does not have to have WMD.If Westminster needs them,store them under Parliament.
    As for the EU. They fast tracked Bulgaria and Romania before they were ready. Brussels is building Empire , and they’ll take anybody except Turkey.Our membership will be whizzed through pronto, to protect Schengen. If this threat of Barroso’s becomes more than rhetoric before the vote in 2014, then it makes it a vote on the EU as well. That will add to the YES side.
    To paraphrase John Cleese, ” what has Brussels ever done for us ? “

  32. Spamtasticus

    8 Nov, 2012 - 12:13 pm

    Fred @ 8 Nov, 2012 – 9:52 am

    Well said Fred. Let it also be remembered that Craig was born and raised in England and is probably a Freemason.

  33. The Telegraph has conveniently summarised its recent headlines on Scottish politics here. It will make a thoughtful piece of reading for those who still believe the press is independent. And yet Salmond is the most only popular political leader in the UK, and the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland (and in some parts of England, I hear). Power of the press? Pfft.

  34. @spamtasticus:

    ET, the mothership’s on the ‘phone…

  35. “Well said Fred. Let it also be remembered that Craig was born and raised in England and is probably a Freemason.”

    …and hasn’t denied being a member of the Illuminati.

  36. “Andrew Mitchell denies ‘rogue’ action over Rwanda aid”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20250025

  37. Spamtastcus

    I don’t judge a man by where he was born or where he was raised and it concerns me not if he is a Freemason.

    It is the things he says I take issue with.

    Outrage at Unionist scaremongering while indulging in Nationalist propaganda himself makes as much sense as the Sun newspaper being outraged at the sexual exploitation of young girls.

  38. “old Etonian”

    “He’s particularly concerned about the plight of the poor and the moral obligations of the City – so the government can expect him to be just as outspoken as Rowan Williams.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20242129

    “old Etonian” “concerned about the plight of the poor”…I don’t think so!!!. A safe pair of hands was the order of the day after Rowan Williams and it was made so!!!.

  39. Fred – think the Mason jibe was intended ironically. Though there are here one or two who will reach for their tinfoil hats and take it entirely seriously. Ditto Illuminati, Rothschild, Temple of Sion and the rest.

    I have several recent ancestors who were Masons. They were not in charge of a global elite, believe me. Or anything else much.

  40. Old Etonian…cont’d…

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/index.html

    §
    Dr. Horace King (Southampton. Test) I beg to move, “That this House expresses its concern at the fact that most of the so-called public schools of this country are, in reality, exclusive private schools catering for children drawn from a narrow social group and outside the State system of education; and, believing that education ought to be provided for children according to their educational needs and not according to the financial resources of their parents, would welcome further measures designed to achieve that object.”

    The most famous and most exclusive and most expensive public schools were stolen from the nation and its poor children a long time ago.

    The early Christian, William of Wykeham, founded Winchester College for the education of 70 poor scholars. He did permit 10, in his own words, “of wealth and rank” to belong, so that originally it had 88 per cent. free places. 435 King Henry VI founded Eton for 25 “poor
    and needy scholars to learn grammar there freely, without money or anything else”—to quote from the old Charter. There were 20 fee payers, so Eton had 55 per cent. free places.

    John Lyon founded Harrow as a free grammar school for the townsfolk, and there were 100 per cent. free places. Queen Elizabeth I founded Westminster with 40 boys chosen for their “disposition, knowledge and poverty.” Merchant Taylors was a school “of liberty most free, being open especially for poor men’s children.” Sutton founded Charterhouse for poor children, and King Edward VI founded Christ’s Hospital to “take out of the streets all the fatherless children and other poor men’s children that are not able to keep them.” As British society became less Christian and more class conscious these original foundations were diverted. The methods of confiscation varied. William of Wyke-ham, who had said that his descendants could acquire free education at Winchester, would find through the ages that he had a fantastic number of relatives.
    §
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson (Farnham) His descendants?
    §
    Dr. King I should have said his kinsfolk.

    Teachers were badly paid, and so the number of fee-payers was allowed to expand. School masters became boarding-house keepers to supplement their miserable wages. Scholarship holders paid all kinds of “extras,” so that the poorest children could no longer afford to take up a scholarship. Influential people had the right of nominating candidates to these schools. The schools were run by closed corporations, and they still are, almost. They could interpret their own charters as they liked and finally they arrived at a stage when they could prove that the words “poor and indigent” were to be taken in a Pickwickian sense and really meant the sons of gentlefolk.

    (Hansard: HC Deb 20 March 1953 vol 513 cc434-47)

  41. Welby’s a splendid chap. Right sort of people, knows his way around, won’t see him letting those Occupy plebs anywhere near St Pauls –

    Welby’s stepfather, allegedly a Labour peer, but interesting views on foxhunting and climate change. Solid on oil and banking. Looks reassuringly Victorian.

    http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp06115/charles-cuthbert-powell-williams-baron-williams-of-elvel

  42. ad Rob (11am) : Scotland’s EU status would be questionable, but there is, I think, no doubt that the “remainder” of the United Kingdom would NOT have to re-apply for membership. EU membership is based on states applying for membership and then being accepted (“acceding”)..or not – states however they are constituted and whetever their territorial extent.

    The UK (including Scotland) acceded in 1973 and would continue to remain a member state, albeit with an altered territorial extent. What would need to be revisited as far as the successor UK was concerned, however, would for example be aspects of EU membership based on various statistical/historical data (GNP, fishing patterns before 1983, etc etc…)

  43. Floreat Eton indeed.

    PM and Cantuar both old Etonians.

    Chancellor and PUS at the FCO both St Paul’s and Oxford.

    But, on the other hand, if you avoid the public schools and Oxford, you end up with people like Greg Dyke at the top.

    Take your choice…

  44. Scotland not eligible as independent State with 5.2 million
    Ireland ok at 4.3 Million
    Denmark 5.4
    Estonia 1.4
    Latvia 2.3
    Lituania 3.4
    Malta 0.4
    Slovakia 5.5
    Slovenia 2.0
    Are 10 Scots counted as 1 ? Are they very small ?. Or insignificent?.

  45. Scum rises, Hab. Sad FACT.

  46. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    8 Nov, 2012 - 3:14 pm

    ‘modo; Being a neophyte with no context for this issue; a question….

    IYO, isn’t the EU desperate to keep all the chickens in the coop? By that I mean, by way of comparison, isn’t that like a politician giving up a constituency’s donors and votes when the success of the Mission can only be hurt by their omission? Expulsion seems like a red herring.

  47. doug scorgie

    8 Nov, 2012 - 3:21 pm

    Mary

    From the Oasis Project webpage (with some comments of mine):

    “For Haiti’s recovery to be sustainable, the country must attract businesses and investors who will need a business class, seismically safe hotel staffed by highly-trained [and shit paid] hospitality workers. The Oasis Project will meet this need, with far reaching impact.”

    “Though original construction was abruptly halted following the earthquake, [so the construction of the hotel was ongoing before the earthquake but now it is being hailed as a project to rebuild Haiti’s infrastructure and economy] the new project sends a powerful message [to casino magnates; Monsanto; land speculators; supermarket chains; advocates of slave labour and many other opportunistic thieves] that Haiti is “open for business.”

  48. Ben, it’s part of THE FEAR. You’ll have no friends, no money, no resources, you’ll be horribly in debt, you’ll never work again, pestilence and disease will run riot in your benighted country.

    It will get worse. Whole divisions of Civil Servants and spooks will be working on this, as we speak.

  49. Well whilst I wouldn’t argue that the EU federalists are eager to expand their empire by any means except Turkey Bulgaria and Romania applied for membership in 1995, negotiations started in 2000, were completed in 2004 and both nations were finally admitted in 2007. I suppose by the turgid pace of the EU 12 years can be regarded as “fast track” but although an independent Scotland, if it has to re-apply, would be in a better position as it should already comply with most EU legislation it shouldn’t imagine that (re-)joining would be a speedy process.

    Interestingly neither Bulgaria or Romania has yet joined the Euro and currently I don’t think either has any plans to do so. Certainly Bulgaria recently shelved it’s plan to join the Euro by 2015 because of the current economic situation. How long they’ll be able to get away with this is anyone’s guess as they have to join sometime. It’s part of the terms and conditions.

    Before any country can join the Euro it’s currency has to spend at least two years in ERM II. No one has yet explained to me how Scotland will do that if, as the SNP have stated, it will continue to use Stirling.

    Whilst Scotland’s situation might not have any precedent there may be for the rest of Britain. After the Soviet Union broke apart the UN recognised Russia as successor nation as it had the largest landmass and population. As a result it kept the USSR’s seat at the UN and membership of the Security Council. If they did the same with the UK it would be difficult for the EU to argue that the England, Wales & NI bit needs to re-apply.

  50. “Scotland not eligible as independent State with 5.2 million”

    Who on earth has been telling you that?

    AFAIK the only thing you need to be a state is that other states recognise you as such. It’s like a club, if the other members say you’re in you’re in, if they say you’re not you’re not. Same with the EU.

  51. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    8 Nov, 2012 - 3:29 pm

    “It will get worse. Whole divisions of Civil Servants and spooks will be working on this, as we speak.”

    Donald; with reference to fear, ‘cui bono’?

  52. Ben, better ask the Unionists. A convincing argument has not been forthcoming for staying in. Why do they want us so much?

    After all, we have no friends, no money, no resources…

    Is it pure sentiment? Hmm.

    Anent the Euro; the Danes ain’t too keen on it, either. You have to join it, but there are criteria.

    Just make sure you don’t achieve them…

  53. Donald.

    Since when did you need a reason for the status quo?

    Scotland is in a union with the rest of Britain, that is how it is, if you want to change things then it is you who must come up with the reasons and I haven’t heard a Nationalist come up with a convincing one yet.

  54. ” I haven’t heard a Nationalist come up with a convincing one yet.”

    Here’s 300

  55. Ben – I’m hardly qualified to comment, but I think the unspoken wish of the EU members is to lose the paupers and keep the contributors. While the EU bureaucrats want as large a gravy train as possible to maximise their importance. This may be too cynical, but the approach rarely lets me down…

  56. Vronky

    That all looks like one reason to me, a hatred of the English, not a convincing reason.

  57. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    8 Nov, 2012 - 4:08 pm

    “EU bureaucrats want as large a gravy train as possible to maximise their importance”

    I see. It’s a possible breach in the Castle wall. Btw….cynicism is a synonym for ‘context’ and is not pejorative.

  58. PERFIDIOUS ALBION – 4

    THE BATTLE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE

    As the USUK Empire Fascists do abroad, so at home. (*)

    So will it be a _real_ battle, with murder, death and torture-to-death and false flag attacks? USUK Empire SOP abroad – see previous sections.

    The UK is now entirely a US Empire satrapy – run by US Empire Quislings – Bliar, Brown, Cameron, Clegg and who knows how many before them … –

    What Scotland is up against –

    “We do not parachute teams into the Soviet Union to haul families out at night and castrate the father with the children watching, because they have the Bomb, and a big army, and they would parachute teams right back into our country and do the same thing to us – they’re not scared of us. For slightly different reasons, but also obvious reasons, we don’t do these things in England, or France, or Germany, or Sweden, or Italy, or Japan. What comes out at you immediately is that these 1 to 3 million direct victims, the dead, and in these other wars, they’re people of the third world. They’re people of the Metumba mountains of the Congo, and the jungles of Southeast Asia, and now the hills of northern Nicaragua – 12,000 peasants. We have not killed KGB or Russian army advisors in Nicaragua. We are not killing Cuban advisors. We’re not killing very many Sandinistas. The 12,000 that we have killed in Nicaragua are peasants, who have the misfortune of living in a CIA’s chosen battlefield. Mostly women and children. Communists? Far, far, far more Catholics than anything else.”

(*) “Now case officers that do these things in places in Nicaragua, they do not come back to the U.S. and click their heels and suddenly become responsible citizens. They see themselves – they have been functioning above the laws, of God, and the laws of man – they’ve come back to this country, and they’ve continued their operations as far as they can get by with them. And we have abundant documentation of that as well. The MH-Chaos program, exposed in the late 60’s and shut down, re-activated by President Reagan to a degree – we don’t have the details yet – in which they were spending a billion dollars to manipulate U.S. student, and labor organizations. The MK-ultra program. For 20 years, working through over 200 medical schools and mental hospitals, including Harvard medical school, Georgetown, some of the biggest places we’ve got, to experiment on American citizens with disease, and drugs.”

    from Part 2 – John Stockwell

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

    Part 1 –

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/John_Stockwell.html and

    No change there, then!

    UK – RULED BY US EMPIRE PUPPETS – WHO KNEW?!

    ROBIN RAMSAY – UK LOBSTER

    THE CITY

    ‘WELL HOW DID WE GET HERE?”

    There is an important essay for economic neophytes (ER, ‘Us’?) on the UK’s economy and the City by Robin Ramsay in UK Lobster, Winter 2010.

    Pages 64 – 105. A lot of work? “If you think education is expensive (or hard work), try ignorance!” See the Neo-Con Nazis and the last eleven years for details! ; )

    So you should probably add reading as much else of Lobster’s _free_ information as you can to your To Do list. ; )

    William Blum, author of ‘Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions since World War 2′ recommends UK Lobster. ‘The British journal, Lobster — which, despite its incongruous name, is a venerable international publication on intelligence matters’ – July 2012 Anti Empire Report.

    His own monthly ‘Anti-Empire Reports’ are always a wonderful dose of both reality and sanity (‘So I am sane’ ; ) ) – the complete opposite of the Muppet Stream Media, which is usually neither!

    http://killinghope.org/

    … UNCLE SAM’S NEW LABOUR – Page 88

    BLIAR, BROWN – UK TRAITORS OR ‘REALISTS’! ?

    “The US government was also paying attention: in 1985 – only two years after Blair became an MP – an official in US embassy in London described him as ‘one of the brightest and most ambitious of recent Labor intake’;60 and the next year Blair took the first of his freebie trips to America.”

    “Brown and Blair were ‘modernisers’ and that had a specific meaning in this period: accept the power of the City and American global hegemony and give up all this nonsense about economic independence (let alone socialism).61 John Smith, another ‘moderniser’ in the Labour leadership, was on the steering committee of the Bilderberg group, one of the key elite forums promoting globalisation, from 1989 to 1992.62 In June 1991 Smith took his then understudy, Gordon Brown, to the Bilderberg meeting at Baden Baden. There Brown met the then obscure governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton. Blair attended the 1993 Bilderberg Conference in Athens.”

    Well I’ll go to the foot of our stairs !!! Shocked, Shocked! To discover gambling going on. ; )

    Thatcher too was of that Anglo-American foundation gravy train ilk. Further, she sold out the people to her Anglo-American chums on UK oil. Where Tony Benn wanted a sovereign wealth fund to preserve the wealth for future generations, as Norway did successfully.

    So the Tories are _exactly_ as New Labour. Utterly corrupt US Empire poodles, desperately competing to jump the highest whenever the US Empire sneezes.

    CASABLANCA

    The Captain Renault Award for recognizing US Empire illegal war, murder, torture-to-death and 27,000 missing ‘disappeared’ Muslims (“Are they alive or are they in mass graves?” – Robert Fisk). –

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-obama-has-to-pay-for-eight-years-of-bushs-delusions-1001092.html

    Given to those Shocked, Shocked! at the obvious. – Original – Casablanca – ; ) –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1DEG6BWgp0

  59. john macadam

    8 Nov, 2012 - 4:20 pm

    Craig

    A couple of points occur to me. The procedure of the referendum and ancillary debate has been agreed by the United Kingdom government. This procedure allows for internal opposition in the traditional form of political campaigning. Certain politicians seem to be seeking the assistance of foreign countries and/or groups to interfere in the internal policies of the United Kingdom. Is there a legal term for such activity?

  60. Link –

    BLIAR, BROWN – UK TRAITORS OR ‘REALISTS’! ?

    … UNCLE SAM’S NEW LABOUR – Page 88

    “The US government was also paying attention: in 1985 – only two years after Blair became an MP – an official in US embassy in London described him as ‘one of the brightest and most ambitious of recent Labor intake’;60 and the next year Blair took the first of his freebie trips to America.”

    See Lobster #60, ‘Well, how did we get here?’ – starts on Page 62, Issue #60 –

    http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/issue60.php

  61. Good post by Kempe ar 3.25 pm. Just a couple of comments :

    1. It’s true that the process for Bulgaria/Romania took a long time, but don’t forget that the entire accession process is a fairly painstaking one (for good reasons) and in their case was complicated by the fact that they had more ground to make up than the other 10 acceding states in a number of what are called the “negotiating chapters. Other states’ accession processes (I’m thinking of the 3 Scandinavians + Austria) were much quicker. From this point of view, Scotland’s negotiations should be relatively quick – barring politial objections – because, as you point out, Scotland, through being part of the UK, has by definition accepted and applied the so-called “acquis communautaire”.

    2. The single currency : as you point out, EU doctrine is that every new member has to commit to joining the single currency – once the so-called Maastricht criteria (economic and monetary convergence, basically) have been met. Opt-outs along the UK and Danish model are no longer possible. But, as you say, it seems difficult to see how Scotland would meet at least the monetary stability criterion if it were to remain in a monetary union with the successor UK. By the way, it’s not especially “interesting” that Bulgaria/Romania haven’t yet joined the single currency; they simply don’t meet all the criteria. It is not a matter of choice (unless of course you believe that they could meet the criteria but in fact manipulate their economies in such a way as to ensure that they don’t meet those criteria).

    3. It would actually be fascinating to see how an independent Scotland would look in economic and financial numbers, since this would have a bearing on a host of issues – all of which boil down to hard cash in the end. Quid Scotland’s receipts under the EU’s structural and cohesion policies? It’s contribution to the European Development Fund (this is the financial arm of the EU-ACP conventions)? Would Scotland end up as a net payer into the EU budget, and if so, by how much and would it also ask for a rebate? And so on…

    But faugh,enough! I’m talking as if it’s a done deed.

  62. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    8 Nov, 2012 - 4:39 pm

    Komodo;

    This is to your point, I think, although a month old.

    “Many in Catalonia and Flanders, for example, argue that they pay significantly more into the national treasury than they receive, even as national governments cut public services. In this sense, the regional argument is the euro zone argument writ small, as richer northern countries like Germany, Finland and Austria complain that their comparative wealth and success are being drained to keep countries like Greece, Portugal and Spain afloat.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/sunday-review/a-european-union-of-more-nations.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&emc=eta1&

  63. ExPat’s post at 4.13pm was interesting on Brown and Blair, and reminded me of something many people perhaps don’t know – or more to the point, don’t imagine. It is that the impression of Americans at large is of a people who hardly know where to find Luxembourg on a map and kept mixed up as between Slovakia and Slovenia. But such ignorance cerainly doesn’t apply to America’s career diplomats, analysts, forward thinkers, policy makers, etc etc; from personal experience, I can tell you that those people are very well briefed and forward looking and know what’s going on to the lastr detail. They are formidable, and – I regret to say – sometimes (often?) make their European counterparts look like ill-prepared amateurs (the European of course suffer from the disadvantage of serevibg 27 different masters, whereas the US bureaucrats and experts only have one). The various programmes the US has for promising Europeans – tomorrow’s leaders, as they say – is to be seen as part of the professionalism I’ve alluded to above.

  64. Pat

    You don’t say what your new name is so I’ll call you Pat.

    When you talk of Blair and Brown are you referring to the Tony Blair born and educated in Edinburgh and the Gordon Brown from Kirkaldy?

    If so I fail to see how they could be used as an argument for independence unless used by the people in the rest of Britain.

  65. Well, Fred, what can I say? A constant re-examination of any partnership of equals (ie the Union) is a necessary part of maintaining equilibrium. Sadly, it has never been part of the British Modus Operandi.

    The two separate entities have always been very different. That has become unsustainable. In every area that the Scots now manage, the two are moving apart. We want different things, we look at things differently, we value some things at widely differing levels.

    England is a deeply Conservative country. Scotland is conservative, but Conservatives are now freaks here. Once, this was not so. But British Conservatism is now so far to Scotland’s right that it has all but vanished.

    Britain is rotten. It has an entrenched, immobile, grasping establishment which feels entitled. A bloated mechanism which is impervious to change.

    We are the last outpost of Empire. In our history, this Union is quite a short experiment. It failed.

  66. Kempe

    You argue from the entirely erroneous standpoint that secession states do not inherit the treaty obligations and positions of the larger state from which they split. There is a huge amount of international law to show that is not the case.

    New applicant states have to go through a lengthy process of meeting the acquis communitaire – that is conforming to all EU legislation on everything from human rights to safety of toys. Scotland, of course, already does.

    Besides which the enntire political history of the EU is one of inclusion and expansion – countries like Romania and Bulgaria were admitted when they did not, plainly, meet much of the acquis at all. There is plenty of history of the rules being bent to let people in. There is no political impetus to kick the Scots out beyond some isolated Spanish right wingers and their hopeful UK unionist mates.

    Scotland is in the EU and citizens of Scotland are EU citizens. Scotland will not be a new EU member any more than it will be a new state. It is a state within the EU which is altering a situation of voluntary union with another state within the EU, while remaining part of the EU. I can guarantee you that is the view that will actually be taken in Brussels when the real crunch comes.

    It will certainly be a net contributor to the EU budget.

  67. The nerverending story…

    “France and Belgium inject more billions to save Dexia bank”

    http://euobserver.com/tickers/118130

  68. Komodo 8 Nov, 2012 – 3:52 pm
    “I think the unspoken wish of the EU members is to lose the paupers and keep the contributors”

    No, everyone’s welcome. This business club wants everyone to follow the rules. It doesn’t want the ‘paupers’ going rogue when you can better rip them off as chums.

  69. “That all looks like one reason to me”

    An SNP branch has five office bearers. When I first joined my local branch all five were English. If Scotland becomes independent it will be in some important part because a few bold Englishmen and women fought for it. So drop the racist stuff – there are plenty of English posters here who are hurrahing Scotland on, tempered only by some justifiable doubt that it might not all be as radical as they could have hoped.

    I’m sorry I’ve written this – I’m not sure you should be taken seriously.

  70. “That all looks like one reason to me”

    Oh, by the way, it was humour.

  71. Donald

    These differences seem to be in your imagination I see little evidence of them in reality. In fact I’d say England and Scotland were getting closer all the time. There are just as many people with Conservative principals around even if they no longer use that name.

    Just as they blame England for Blair and Brown conveniently forgetting they are Scots they blamed England for Thatcher conveniently forgetting who brought her to power, conveniently forgetting when the SNP allied themselves with Thatcher to bring down the Labour government.

    Cameron, now there’s an fine old English name, he wouldn’t be one of the Aberdeenshire Camerons would he? Closer all the time.

  72. You could always look at the pretty side of it.

    http://www.williamsoutar.com/poems/brig.html

  73. Ah, the old myth about bringing in Thatcher. I hold no brief for the SNP, not a supporter, but it was a lie then, and it’s a lie now. That you peddle it says little for your grasp of the facts.

    We obviously inhabit different Scotlands. Or planets.

    I have a life. I really must get on with it. Is it cosy under the bridge?

  74. “You argue from the entirely erroneous standpoint that secession states do not inherit the treaty obligations and positions of the larger state from which they split.”

    No, I said IF Scotland had to re-apply.

    I also did mention that in the event of having to apply Scotland would already meet most of the EU’s requirements. I suppose areas where it would not would include EMU, Schengen and Foreign Policy.

    Certainly the EU has been prepared to bend (bend? corkscrew more like) the rules to admit new member states and it’s been the cause of much of the problems the Eurozone now has. Whether they’d be prepared to do so again in the future is an interesting question. They’re greedy and stupid enough.

  75. Donald, I live in the same Scotland as you do, where that fine old working class hero Alex Salmond is First Minister, let’s face it, he’s no more a Socialist than Tony Blair was. Whatever happened to his promises to re-regulate the transport system? Or is Brian Souter the one really calling the shots?

    You may call the SNP tabling a motion of no confidence in the Labour government then voting with Thatcher for her motion a myth but it is a matter of public record.

  76. Craig,

    Former SNP leader and Dundee University Rector Gordon Wilson (I know you knew well from Dundee days) apparently is not so sure about the EU question. At least according to this Daily Record report http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-veterans-demand-europe-referendum-1418952

    Of course Gordon Wilson (very nice man) can’t stand Alex Salmond any way. Personally, as a Scot myself, I can’t stand Alex Salmand either though.

  77. English Knight

    8 Nov, 2012 - 8:39 pm

    The Scottish cougars should face a lesser threat of extinction with the pumas all left south of the border. But they will end up having to do with a much shorter end of the stick several generations later,than their English counterparts !

  78. “Of course Gordon Wilson (very nice man) can’t stand Alex Salmond any way. Personally, as a Scot myself, I can’t stand Alex Salmand either though.”

    I know Gurdonk Wifsing wall and have dun for miny yoors. Nobody would pish on the bastink if he was on fire, we all know who pays him. It’s only Gurdick himsumf (an yoo) who finks that’s a secrab.

    When you say you don’t like Sulmind fraid to sum varmints lick us can sound lick endorsement. Some support we don’t want. Yours, exemplis gratis. Don’t underestimate your enema. At least try to get spellin rite.

  79. Vronsky, A simple typo and you lose it completely? Note the correct spelling in the preceding sentence of the post you complain about.

    Don’t support the SNP but Gordon Wilson I liked personally the few times I ever met him. And he had some funny stories to tell about his days with pirate Scottish radio.

  80. “Vronsky, A simple typo and you lose it completely? Note the correct spelling in the preceding sentence of the post you complain about.”

    Yes, I’m sorry, that was unfair. But we know about Wilson, that’s the point. At best he’s a political vegetable but I suspect the truth could be worse.

  81. I agree Komodo…

    Casino Capitalism

    “I wanted to use privatization to achieve my ambition of a capital-owning democracy. This is a state in which people own houses, shares, and have a stake in society, and in which they have wealth to pass on to future generations.”
    Prime Minister Thatcher

    Some lateral thinking reveals The Right Reverend Justin Welby ‘baby sat’ the privatisation of Enterprise oil. His rise to leader of the Church of England tells us that behind the cassock lurks a benefactor for runaway privatisation by agent Cameron – for all his pre-election pledges.

    Those who hoped that the Lib Dem presence in government would help moderate Conservative excesses have had a rude awakening. The rapid, root-and-branch restructuring of the NHS amounts to a private cream-off of profitable health appendages leaving ‘payment by results’ essential services to rot and die.

    Some awake people are asking why their much-loved public libraries have to close, why the Royal Mail, in state hands in 1516, has to be privatised, and why our ancient woodlands are being flogged off, why Royal Mail, why the Motorway network, why, why, why. And why, if money is too tight to mention, doesn’t the government make the bankers and financial speculators pay their fare share?

    Wake up, smell the coffee!

  82. I’m not going to defend the SNP and Alex Salmond. It’s not my job. But the Left in Scotland do themselves no favours wallowing in past perceived injustice instead of addressing their own history of betrayal, incompetence and bare-faced lying to the people they purport to represent.

    Callaghan was a Tory, incompetent and incapable of forming political alliances that would have saved his hide. He alienated one too many Ulstermen and sneered once too often at people who had his destiny in their gift. And Labour have been doing it ever since.

    We’ve all read the McCrone report now. We’ve read the cabinet papers. Lying Labour preferred penury for their constituents and alternating Tory governments to any measure of Scottish self-rule.

    Quite a few of those jerks’ names are on the ‘Savile List’. I hope they get get royally rogered when they finally get to the slammer.

    Labour lost. They’re still losers. Get over it.

  83. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    8 Nov, 2012 - 10:09 pm

    “Wake up, smell the coffee!”

    Huh? Tea don’t smell? :)

  84. Thanks to all who have e-mailed me, and sorry that I haven’t been answering. Best wishes.

  85. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    9 Nov, 2012 - 12:52 am

    Technicolour says he talked with you the other night, Clark. He said you were ok.

    Glad to see you are…….

  86. Please don’t quote or cite the Daily Record, it is little more than a comic, answerable for its treachery and likely to fold imminently. Gordon Wilson, endorsing religious cranks, has made some contemptibly homophobic utterances, he is the more likely in Souter’s pocket than Salmond; his utterances suggest he’s gone over the edge completely. I’d rather the SNP lose a few votes than pander to bigots and abandon the shining ideal of equality. The SNP went backwards under Wilson’s questionable leadership; however many witty anecdotes he might regale his intimates with, he failed utterly and let Westminster sabotage Scotland’s future unhindered. Scotland and its people’s inviolable right to self-determination are eternal, the EU a fleeting manifestation of an ugly Franco-German Fourth Reich. Independence is as much freedom from London’s corrupt misrule, as it is an opt-out from any and all the damaging diktats of the comparably detestable EU as currently constituted.

    There is no such thing as Labour-Scotland, Scottish Labour or anything similar, there is one Labour Party, the party of Blair, Milliband, Balls, Reid, Murphy –Atlanticist right-wingers.

    The SNP is a big lifeboat to deliver us to safely home to Independence, all have a place aboard – even floundering scared detractors scramble on in good time, the course is now set, every last man woman and child accounted for, safe and well and ready for a great adventure. Have some ambition, some vision of Scotland in command of its own destiny again and an inspiration to others to join us in the exercise of real democracy, even beleagured England will look on in awe and enlightenment. The real Left in Scotland know this and have places reserved aboard, only the entryist right wingers bray about international solidarity and walk away from the only game in town, the only party that can deliver on almost all of the littlest people’s wishes and dreams. Socialism as it is understood in modern Scotland isn’t entirely about ‘the workers’ but the responsibility to look out for the best interests of the whole community, ever and always. We define it.

    Tory withdrawal of pairing arrangements made Callaghan’s fall only a matter of time, constitutionally they could not have staggered on much longer anyway, their time was up, their tea out, it was more of a mercy killing of a wounded but still dangerous beast. Callaghan, Healey, Jenkins, cooked the books to hide the colossal oil wealth flowing into Treasury coffers and handed Thatcher an oil windfall to throw to the Tory faithful and enrich the South East whilst smashing the great industrial heritage of Scotland in what she thought would be a pre-emptive blow to the devolution/independence movement. Scorched earth policies more in keeping with the behaviour of a retreating army of occupation, which was Labour’s own policy too, given, as Balir and Brown were, half a chance. No-one then expected such wickedness, now we know nothing is beneath them and nothing more can harm us.

    Everything else, the EU, Trident, NATO, monarchy, currency etc., the people decide after independence by participatory democracy. Out with the old, in with the new. Opponents of the SNP direct route to independence are mere old nasty Tories in new (Labour) guises.

  87. ‘Scotland is in the EU and citizens of Scotland are EU citizens. Scotland will not be a new EU member any more than it will be a new state.’

    Craig -apply this logic to Flanders or Catalonia and consider whether the EU would be similarly indifferent about their ‘new state’ status. The fact that the EU has been happy to absorb small states on its former eastern periphery doesn’t mean it will be similarly pleased to see the break up of three of its members (UK, Belgium & Spain) much closer to its core. The expansion template still being applied in Bulgaria, Romania & now Croatia will be found wanting in these very different circumstances.

  88. Gordon Wilson was Rector of Dundee University at the time Craig was President of DUSA. Perhaps Wilson is just a bitter old crank now for all I know. But back then DUSA and Gordon Wilson got on very well and Wilson was regarded as doing a very good job. Or so I thought.

    Perhaps Craig can remember who initially proposed Gordon Wilson for Rector. Or, If I am completely wrong and Craig didn’t get on well with and like Gordon Wilson as a person at the time, then maybe Craig can say so.

    I really hadn’t heard Wilson’s name for years to be honest until I saw that Daily Record story in a Google Search and thought I’d post it.

  89. how fitting…blair in jerusalem in romney-backing casino magnate sheldon adelson’s newspaper, israel hayom, telling palestinians what not to do, cos u know, obama will now do something or other that he didn’t do in the first four years!!

    nov 8 –

    Blair: Obama win opens way for new Mideast push
    Former British prime minister and current Quartet envoy says “a one-state solution means you institutionalize conflict” • After meeting Blair, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he is ready to resume peace talks with the Palestinians, urging Palestinians to avoid unilateral moves at the U.N.
    http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=6348

  90. O/T
    Some preliminary US war game?

    US Says Iran Fired on US Drone Over Gulf

    By LOLITA C. BALDOR
    Associated Press

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The Pentagon says an Iranian military plane fired upon, but did not hit, an unarmed U.S. drone aircraft a week ago in what a spokesman said was international airspace over the Persian Gulf.

    Pentagon press secretary George Little disclosed the incident was disclosed Thursday.

    Little said the drone aircraft was performing “routine surveillance” and was about 16 miles off the Iranian coast when an Iranian SU-25 warplane intercepted it and opened fire. He said it was the first time an unmanned U.S. aircraft was shot at in international airspace over the Gulf.

    Little said the U.S. informed the Iranians that it would continue to conduct such surveillance flights in international airspace.

    © 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32978.htm

  91. Thanks Oddie, I did not know about Adelson’s link to that rag.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/sheldon-adelsons-israel-hayom-2012-11

    Adelson must be feeling sick at his lost ‘investment’ in Romney’s campaign.
    Forbes headline 13 June 2012
    Exclusive: Adelson’s Pro-Romney Donations Will Be ‘Limitless,’ Could Top $100M

  92. “US Says Iran Fired on US Drone Over Gulf”

    Did they say what they would do if they found an Iranian drone 16 mile off the Eastern Seaboard?

  93. During the Cold War we didn’t shoot down Soviet overflights within UK airspace. We just waved them politely away. We didn’t want to jeopardise our overflights of them, did we?

    Anyway, I think the US would be better employed surveilling its dear little friend on the Med, which is far more likely to initiate a war. A drone strike on the fascist Liebermann would also be in order. That man’s global trouble.

  94. We cannot know how Bradley Manning is being treated, but is he being leaned on in more ways than one?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/9665970/WikiLeaks-Bradley-Manning-offers-partial-guilty-plea.html

  95. Cryptonym

    Given the fact that the SNP are going to great lengths to convince people that everything will remain the same after independence, even to the extent of telling downright lies then using taxpayer’s money in an attempt to prevent the people of Scotland hearing the truth, suggest two things to you?

    One that the people of Scotland actually like things the way they are and two that the SNP will say anything they think will help them win a referendum then do as they like when it’s too late?

  96. ‘the SNP will say anything they think will help them win a referendum then do as they like when it’s too late?’

    Like ‘Labour’, you mean?

    Yeah, politicos are all c**ts.

  97. Yes, like Labour, Tories and now it seems Liberals.
    Salmond is an oil economist, wonder where the revolving door is going to drop him after he sells Scotland to the highest bidder.

  98. Reuters

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/07/argentina-chevron-idUSL1E8M7IVV20121107?rpc=401

    Just one of the reasons the USA wants rid of Correa.

  99. Glenn Greenwald has taken up the story about
    “US Says Iran Fired on US Drone Over Gulf”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/08/cnn-iran-drones-gulf

  100. Anon

    I did indeed get on very well indeed with Gordon Wilson and liked him immensely. I last saw Edith and Hordon in 2007.

    I am very sad indeed about these things he has been saying for a few months now. He will be furious if I said that in his mid seventies he is suffering effects of ageing; but he was always one of the personally kindest and above all most tolerant people you could know and got on very well with openly gay students in the students union. He fought for Scottish nationalism when it was a “dead” cause, and was involved with pirate radio stations, moving transmitters to hide then from the police, and with the group who stole the Stone of Scone.

    I will always regard him as a friend, but am very sorry about this stance he is taking.

  101. Mary,

    Not only Bradley Manning.

    “The political trial of a caring man and the end of justice in America”.

    http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-political-trial-of-a-caring-man-and-the-end-of-justice-in-america

    Let us not forget Lynne Stewart.

  102. Clark

    Good to see you popping in. Glad you’re ok – Tech let us know.
    (which reminds me, Jon is very quiet for some reason)

  103. Yes, Salmond is a self-promoter.

    His abilities in that line were unreservedly put to the service of the cause he sincerely believed in. Without Salmond, I feel safe in saying, the SNP would still be worrying about whether it would get six seats in Scotland next time. He enthused and energised the debate, and transfused a much-needed self-confidence into party members.

    Yes, Salmond was an oil economist.

    Which gave him a plausibility in advancing the economic case not possessed either by his peers or his opponents. Without an economic case, the independence argument collapses.

    If and when he leaves politics, as far as I am concerned, he is welcome to enter any field he likes. And be handed as much cash – he’s probably worth it – as he likes. The SNP is a social-democratic party, sure, but if Salmond had not guided away from the doctrinaire left, it would not be what it is today. Fair play to the man, please.

  104. English Knight

    9 Nov, 2012 - 10:40 am

    A very sweet interview – truth journalism as it were ! Very rare in the Faux/yiddistani press !

    http://rt.com/news/assad-interview-exclusive-syria-265/

  105. Craig,

    Let us fast forward in time, we will say that Scotland has gained its independence, the SNP win the first election in an independent Scotland, within a short period of time you will coming on here and saying how bad the SNP are. You did it after you said Obama was the change we need, you did it after you said the Lib Dems were the change we need. Wake up Craig, the WHOLE political system is corrupt, they have all been bought!, wake up.

  106. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 10:48 am

    There was a time when nationalism was seen as being the antithesis of socialist/progressive politics – reading the comments here this is clearly no longer the case and many have gone over to the dark side. Why has this happened?

  107. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 10:50 am

    I might also add that not a few aren’t above waving religous banners as well as national flags.

  108. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 10:54 am

    “Yes, like Labour, Tories and now it seems Liberals.
    Salmond is an oil economist, wonder where the revolving door is going to drop him after he sells Scotland to the highest bidder.”

    By quite a lot of reports he is also quite keen on a flutter or two.

  109. There was a time when nationalism was seen as being the antithesis of socialist/progressive politics – reading the comments here this is clearly no longer the case and many have gone over to the dark side. Why has this happened?

    Nationalism has always found support among the working class. As has socialism. There’s never been a clear divide. The leftward side of Old Labour had quite a romantic relationship with Basque and even Irish nationalism. There’s actually no contradiction at all.

    By quite a lot of reports he is also quite keen on a flutter or two.

    And?

    I don’t know if his bookie hates him or not, but his political gambles have a way of paying off.

  110. Komodo

    The SNP came to power by default, Thatcher screwed it for the Conservatives and Blair screwed it for Labour. Don’t for one minute think everyone voting SNP was voting for independence. The sneaky charlatans are now merging all the Scottish police forces into one and it is no secret that one of the main reasons is to try and create a sense of Scottish national identity. Note “create”, as far as many in Scotland are concerned the part of Scotland where Edinburgh and Glasgow are situated is practically England anyway, vast areas of Scotland relate more to their Norse and Irish heritage than they do to the Lowland Scot. They haven’t forgotten who it was sold them out in 1707 and I don’t think they are in any doubts about who is trying to do it again.

  111. Fred , the SNP came to power through democracy and Robert Burns told the story how English gold bought England a Union with Scotland.
    People have been voting SNP for years for one reason. Independence. It is the raison d’etre for the SNP ,and always has been.The SNP have increased their vote because they managed to deliver promises despite being a minority party in power.They have actually improved Scotland, whilst still fighting for Scotland in the cesspit of Westminster.
    I have never met anyone who thinks that anywhere north of the border is anything but Scotland. Where do you collect your views ? As for Norse and Irish values, think again. The Shetlands and Orkney have their own traditions for sure, but have more in common with the fishing communities around Scotland than Scandinavia or Ireland.Come to Scotland !! We have Asian , Italian and Polish that are as Scottish as I am.
    You are completely misinformed !

  112. Resident Dissident

    Nationalism has always been a means for the few to control the many, flags are used to shrinkwrap peoples brains before they go and as shrouds on their coffins when they return. It is playing on man’s instincts to be part of a tribe, his desire to belong, was a time when it was a matter of survival, evolution hasn’t caught up yet.

    Note the weasel words chosen for the referendum “Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?”. Are you one of the gang? Are you with everyone else? Why not just have two words, “Independent” and “Union” then let people put a cross next to the one they prefer? Because they know they are going to have to use every trick in the book to force the wishes of the minority onto the majority.

  113. Windbag replies to innuendo. No smoke without fire, usually.

    Full statement from Lord McAlpine…we’ll have more on this on today’s #wato @BBCRadio4

    Press statement issued by Lord McAlpine
    Over the last several days it has become apparent to me that a number of ill- or uninformed commentators have been using blogs and other internet media outlets to accuse me of being the senior Conservative Party figure from the days of Margaret Thatcher’s leadership who is guilty of sexually abusing young residents of a children’s home in Wrexham, North Wales in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
    It has additionally become apparent to me that a number of broadcasters and newspapers have, without expressly naming me, also been alleging that a senior Conservative Party figure from that time was guilty of or suspected of being guilty of the sexual abuse of residents of this children’s home.
    It is obvious that there must be a substantial number of people who saw that I had been identified in the internet publications as this guilty man and who subsequently saw or heard the broadcasts or read the newspapers in question and reasonably inferred that the allegation of guilt in those broadcasts and newspapers attached to me.

    blah blah etc

    /..
    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/juld91

    Is he a Scot or has he just got a Scottish name?

  114. ‘Fred…..Where do you collect your views ?’

    Edmiston Drive…. or the Lowden Bar.

  115. DoNNyDarKo

    So if the only reason people vote SNP is independence how come they only managed to get one MP into Parliament prior to the finding of North Sea oil and he only lasted 3 months?

  116. Why should Scotland want to remain in the EU? As an independent country their position would be very strong, with lots of issues that could be traded off to ensure that Scottish policy was implemented. For instance if London wants to keep the nuclear submarines in the country then the price that Edinburgh could exact would be very high indeed. Does the USA want to keep Scotland in NATO? My guess is probably yes, so the Scots can ask the Americans to bitch slap Spain into line if they are determined to stay in the EU. I could make the point that Spain has a large fishing fleet and will want to keep it in Scottish waters rather than see it sunk by the new Royal Scottish Navy, but what’s the point? You get the idea that Scotland holds a good hand.

  117. What Donny said. (I’m an English ex-long-term resident of his excellent country) Most of the Scottish population is to be found in the big cities. In which, do please try suggesting to the man in the street that he is, consequently, English. The SNP has always stood for independence, and has never concealed the fact. (I’m an ex-member of that, too) And how else does anyone get into power but when the opposition screws up?

    Incidentally, it was John Smith who pledged a devolution vote. Ironic that just about the only pledge Blair never broke was someone else’s, innit?

    History here:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/81901.stm

    (written before devolution was agreed)

  118. Fred: A good question. The answer is the same as that to “why do you think the UK government is even prepared to contemplate an independence referendum now that the easy North Sea oil has gone?”

    Yes, follow the money. But it’s the same motivation for all.

  119. Mary –

    Wither, Sheldon Adelson?
    “For a guy who made his fortune from gambling, Sheldon Adelson sure is a lousy better.” That’s the popular refrain going around these post-election days, as a multi-million dollar foray into the 2012 election season ended with a loss for nearly every candidate backed by casino-mogul Adelson.
    In addition to Mitt Romney’s failed presidential bid, Adelson backed, among others, the congressional run of Rabbi-turned-attention vacuum Shmuley Boteach, and the reelection campaign for Representative Allen West, who once insisted “If Joseph Goebbels was around, he’d be very proud of the Democrat party.” However, when the dust settled on the morning of November 7th, seven of the eight candidates supported by Adelson had lost. The only “win” in Adelson’s column was Dean Heller, the incumbent senator from Nevada; Adelson’s home state in which he pulls quite a bit of weight…
    Prior to this election, Adelson’s political influence was felt most acutely in Israel, where the Adelson-owned Israel Ha’yom newspaper is referred to as “Bibi-ton” for its lock-step support of prime minister Bibi Netanyanu and his right wing government. Then came the supreme court’s Citizens United ruling, which opened the doors for individuals to donate unlimited funds toward Super-Political Action Committees here in the U.S…
    http://heebmagazine.com/wither-sheldon-adelson/39724

    Key members of the Congressional ‘Islamophobia caucus’ swept from Congress
    http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/islamophobes-lose-out-in-congressional-races/

  120. English Knight

    9 Nov, 2012 - 12:03 pm

    Bravehearts? nah more like bravefarts ! Its all going to end in tears once the freemasons decide to cut Salmond down to size.

  121. always the same pattern:

    Sydney Morning Herald: Brother accused of child attacks was wanted in NZ
    A ST JOHN of God brother who was accused of sex assault in the order’s Victorian homes but was never charged, avoided extradition to New Zealand in 2004 to face similar charges on the grounds he was suffering dementia…
    The allegations of abuse by the brothers in two different states and overseas raise concerns about whether suspected paedophile brothers were shifted interstate or to New Zealand after complaints were made.
    On Friday, The Age revealed that a group of 15 religious brothers are suspected of the sexual abuse of more than 40 boys in homes run by the order in Cheltenham and Lilydale between the 1950s and the 1980s…
    Documents show that St John of God brothers were involved in scores of attacks over decades on children at a special school they ran in NSW.
    The order yesterday confirmed it was co-operating with a police investigation into the matter. Allegations against the order in NSW include drugging, restraining and raping a boy at Kendall Grange, a residential school for intellectually disabled boys.
    Asked yesterday why Victorian police had not pursued the allegations of abuse here by the brothers, a state government spokesperson said the government had established the inquiry into the handling of child abuse by religious and other organisations. ”As the matters raised are the subject of that inquiry, the Victorian government does not wish to pre-empt its findings or outcomes.”
    A police spokesperson said police had made a submission to the inquiry and making further comment might prejudice those proceedings.
    Compensation claim summary documents compiled for the order allege abuse involving at least 15 boys occurred at Kendall Grange regularly from the 1960s to the mid-1980s…
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/brother-accused-of-child-attacks-was-wanted-in-nz-20121109-293q6.html

  122. I see Geller is beaming out from a photo there Oddie. Repellent people. Quite heartening to read this if it is really happening. Perhaps some Americans really are waking up from their slumber.

    ‘Hasner was a former Florida state representative until 2010, and decided to run for a Florida House seat in 2012. But he lost to Lois Frankel last night. He was an up and coming Jewish Republican who is really cozy with Pamela Geller, the nation’s leading and most virulent anti-Muslim activist. Hasner also was a leader in ginning up fear over the non-existent threat of Sharia law coming to the U.S, and once invited notorious anti-Muslim politician Geert Wilders to a “free speech” conference.

    “These encouraging results clearly show that mainstream Americans reject anti-Muslim bigotry by candidates for public office and will demonstrate that rejection at the polls,” Nihad Awad, executive director for the Council on American Islamic Relations, said in a statement. “This election witnessed an increased political awareness and mobilization effort among American Muslims that dealt a major blow to the Islamophobia machine.”’

    http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/islamophobes-lose-out-in-congressional-races/

  123. “Does the USA want to keep Scotland in NATO?”

    Its 100% a mutual arrangement.

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/sep2012/scot-s10.shtml

  124. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 12:13 pm

    Komodo

    Read here http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat to understand why the sort of leftist nationalism you espouse is a one way street leading to conservatism and worse.

  125. …the sort of leftist nationalism you espouse is a one way street leading to conservatism and worse.

    If it leads to an independent democratic constituent assembly, it leads to no worse than the UK has at present. The SNP is by no means the only player post-independence. It may not even be the biggest. And that’s up to the Scots.

    Orwell is deploring all nationalism – to some extent I agree with him, and even Kipling recognised its mucky underbelly (“Jelly-Bellied Flag-Flapper” in Stalky & Co for instance. But the Brotherhood of Man is still some way off, and if your special requirements in the way of regional autonomy are not being met by a distant government, then I think nationalism, well within the limits set by Nuremburg, is perfectly reasonable. and make no apology for this view.

    English Knight may care to note that Salmond is a 33rd Dan Mystic Master of the Illuminati, and under the personal protection of all the Rothschilds. The Masons don’t stand a chance.

  126. Donald

    I’m opposed to Nationalism for the same reasons I’m opposed to Sectarianism.

    Lets face it, there isn’t too much difference between them.

  127. “But the Brotherhood of Man is still some way off”

    Correct, but then you can always have a pretend one.

    http://euobserver.com/institutional/118126

  128. Except, presumably, British nationalism?

  129. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 2:05 pm

    “it leads to no worse than the UK has at present.”

    And how do you think its larger and more financially dominant neighbour would treat Scotland after independence and be held democratically accountable for its actions? And you could ask the Irish, Greeks, Spanish and Portugese about how democratic accountability works within the EU if you think that route will offer any salvation.

    I suspects that quite a lot of Conservatives who believe in divide and conquer will be only to happy to see Scotland be given its independence – just look at how keen they are to mess around with the Barnett formula for allocating funds to local government – what do you think would happen after Scottish independence? AS for oil and gas revenues – forget it – it is running out and I don’t think many of the rigs are owned by Scottish companies.

  130. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 2:08 pm

    Komodo

    In short if Scottish nationalism is given its head don’t be surprised if there isn’t a resurgence in English nationalism – its rather uglier and bigger cousin.

  131. The Arab Spring effect, eh, Dissident? No worries. The drones are here already, and the nukes will be too, with any luck (for the Scots). Toss a coin and see which side the Yanks back…

  132. AS for oil and gas revenues – forget it – it is running out and I don’t think many of the rigs are owned by Scottish companies.

    Just as well, really, as the owners will be paying for the cleanup when the rigs go offstream. They’ll be selling us alternative power and water by then…

    Personally, I agree with you to an extent. The SNP’s proposals are optimistic, and may be unrealistic. But, with Osborne as the standard of comparison, they still look pretty good…the Scots aren’t a disadvantaged tribe. They understand money at least as well as the English, and they are at least as qualified to decide for themselves.

  133. resident dissident

    9 Nov, 2012 - 2:43 pm

    “Just as well, really, as the owners will be paying for the cleanup when the rigs go offstream”

    get real – this only happens in the USA when there is a foreign company to foot the bill

    “They understand money at least as well as the English, and they are at least as qualified to decide for themselves.”

    That is why I suspect they will not vote for independence.

  134. “Except, presumably, British nationalism?”

    I’m just as opposed to the BNP as I am to the SNP.

  135. “Just as well, really, as the owners will be paying for the cleanup when the rigs go offstream”

    get real – this only happens in the USA when there is a foreign company to foot the bill. ”

    In the wake of the Brent Spar cock-up the green lobby forced through laws which require North Sea oil installations to be completely removed and brought ashore for scraping. The costs are horrendous and will continue to mount as the North Sea fields dry up over the next few decades. I’ve no idea if the SNP have factored in these costs to their projections.

    http://www.offshore-technology.com/features/feature2069

  136. I’m just as opposed to the BNP as I am to the SNP.

    Now you’re just being silly.

    And so, goodnight.

  137. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    9 Nov, 2012 - 4:01 pm

    Apropos of nothing, I note everyone disappears in late afternoon…..has Spanish culture infused the siesta? :)

  138. Fred,
    When you are so against nationalism, why weren’t you up in arms over the Olympics with all the flag waving and symbolism ? It was all very reminiscent of a Germany 60 years ago ,with 20,000 troops and small union jack flags distributed to all communities in the UK.
    Local tax paying business’s knocked to the side in favour of Corporate non tax paying sponsors.
    Why don’t you get mad about something that makes sense ?
    Scotland exercising its democratic right pisses you off for some reason. I don’t get it !!
    We have a Govt. that nobody voted for in power, and the Scots voted overwhelmingly for Labour and the SNP. You shouldn’t be happy with what you have, and the Scots have every reason to want something better in place of an undemocratic , polluted,corrupt Houses of Parliament.
    This bunch of tossers work for the city and big business.

  139. I was very much opposed to the Olympics, I didn’t even watch one event.

    Nationalism is Nationalism, finding excuses to justify it is what they all do, that’s what the BNP do, that’s what they did in 1930’s Germany, this time it’s different they say.

    If I’m in Newcastle and I see a house with a Union Flag draped out of the window I know what I think about the occupant, why would I think any different about a house in Scotland with a Saltire draped from the window?

  140. Hi Dreoilin – I’m very well, thanks. Not had much time to post of late, so just keeping an eye on the spam queue. Dare say I’ll join in when I get a moment :)

    Fred – the idea that Scottish and British nationalism, in their primary forms, are directly comparable is ludicrous. Scottish nationalism has as its primary aim the secession of Scotland from the Union, but does not exhibit the colour discrimination, nor the tendencies towards repatriation policies and fascism, as the BNP does.

    I’ve seen anti-English racism from Scots, sure – steeped as it is in ancient wars and prejudices – but conflating that phenomenon with political Scottish nationalism is patently unfair.

  141. Ben Franklin (head honcho CIA Office for Craig Murray Operations)

    9 Nov, 2012 - 5:08 pm

    Jon;
    clark peeked in last night, then promptly disappeared. Has he been in contact with you via email, or…?

  142. Jon

    Yes there is a great deal of hatred of the English in Scotland, I’ve seen it first hand I was in Bradford in the 1960s, saw the racism there as well. It looks pretty much the same to me. Seems logical to me that those most anti English are the ones most likely to join the SNP just as those most anti immigrant were the first to join the BNP.

    And there is no doubt in my mind that Salmond is milking the anti English sentiment for all it is worth.

  143. Ben Franklin – I’m pleased he’s been in here. He’s not been in contact with me; I suspect he’s taking a bit of a break. However, do take a look at the “Presidential Debate Sends Me to Bed” thread – he’s posted more substantially there today. Also see the “The Denis MacShane Prize” post, it seems Technicolor has telephoned him – well done Tech.

    Fred, I don’t personally take the view that the SNP is fuelled by hatred. I’m English living in England, and I think Scotland would be better off not being ruled by London.

  144. Fred ,You said you’d been to Bradford, but did you make it any further north? There is not the hatred you speak of. It is only in your mind !if it was as bad as you say, then all the 2nd home owners would have been gone long ago. The B& B’s are buzzing with englsih tourists all year round because they are well received.
    Even the bi annual visit of the English rugby team is a good natured booze up.
    There’s maybe no doubts in your mind, there isn’t much 1st hand knowledge of Scotland either.
    Salmond’s campaign if you take the time to read about it ,or listen to him speak is positive, unlike the “Bitter stay together” launched by the Unionists.

  145. If I see a house with a union flag flying, it doesn’t really say anything about the occupant(s) to me, except that they are fools and lower intelligences, easily led, gullible sheep, devoid of free will, capable of great good or unspeakable horror at a despot’s whim. We in Scotland recoil from it in horror of all that it represents, it strikes terror in hearts, heralding and portending subjugation and death everywhere it is exposed, as Iraqis and Afghans have learned and as the Nazi swastika did in some occupied parts of Europe. It functions as a red rag to a resistant populace. The saltire is pristine, unsullied whilst the union flag has long earned and owned the term Butcher’s Apron.

    How though can a tattered rag provide insight into a person or group of individuals; flags are mere representations of symbolic myths, part of the panoply of past martial endeavour, effective communication for a pre-literate people, a shorthand which might come into its own again in the residual UK where basic literacy is considered dangerously subversive and is steadily being eliminated. Severed heads on the end of a pikestaffs would have served equally well then and Cameron’s/Blair’s would be relished even today. Sadly nations are obliged to have some form of national flag or symbol, it is expected of us, in other contexts brands and logos function in a similar way -as crude marketing devices.

    Independence is a formality now, the referendum the first opportunity given to reject democratically an illegitimate union made under conditions of coercion, terror and blockade. The St. Andrew’s flag, as with the Palestinian flag proclaims hope over oppression, identity over shapeless nothingness; revival after existential trial.

  146. DoNNyDarKo

    Yes I’ve been further north, about as far north as you can if you can’t swim and I’ve been there for the last 20 years. So calling someone an FEB is different to calling someone a PB how? A child getting bullied at school because they are English is different to a child being bullied at school because they have dark skin why?

    I saw what Joan McAlpine had to say.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/12/joan-mcalpine-accused-of-political-racism_n_1203130.html?ref=uk

    The sad part is she saw nothing wrong with it, that is always the saddest part, the denial it is happening and the denial there is anything wrong with it.

  147. ‘The St. Andrew’s flag, as with the Palestinian flag proclaims hope over oppression, identity over shapeless nothingness; revival after existential trial.’

    It’s also the template for the Stars ‘N’ Bars confederate flag, of course; plenty of ‘hope over oppression’ signified there.

  148. By what stretch of the imagination can you possibly compare Scotland to Palestine? I see your remarks as a downright insult to every Palestinian, you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Can the Scots please get it into their heads that they are not oppressed. They weren’t conquered by England they entered into a partnership and did very nicely indeed from their share of the profits made off the backs of those in the world who were genuinely oppressed. Scotland has their own Parliament so they can decide on what they do and they have seats in the British Parliament so they can tell everyone else what to do.

    Oh and the Confederate Battle Flag had nothing whatsoever to do with the flag of St Andrew, originally designed with a standard cross it was changed to a saltire so as not to offend people in the southern states who were not Christian.

  149. technicolour

    11 Nov, 2012 - 1:25 pm

    V interesting Fred, thanks

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