The Sky Has Not Fallen

by craig on May 23, 2013 7:05 pm in Uncategorized

The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.

Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:

A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.

Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.

Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.

We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.

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830 Comments

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  1. If someone strangles me on a Dundee bus tomorrow, it will only be classed as terrorism if the media decide. It will not warrant 24/7 coverage if he shouts that the tooth fairy told him to do it. If he shouts that god told him to do it, it will only be terrorism if that god is not christian.
    Mental illness knows no boundaries.

  2. Fear is good.

  3. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 7:51 pm

    “Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict.”

    I disagree they are two distinct conflicts and trying to link them just gives both murderers a very weak excuse for their actions. That aside I agree with everything else that you say.

  4. Greenmachine

    23 May, 2013 - 7:52 pm

    Watching Obama on RT. Is he about to ask Congress to close Gitmo….yes but he has been heckled from audience. He is looking for site in USA for detainees from Gitmo. Is this his move to live up to his earlier promise!?

  5. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2013 - 8:07 pm

    The knee jerkers:

    “Woolwich attack: Snoopers’ charter ‘could have prevented machete tragedy’”

    “The Woolwich terrorist attack could potentially have been avoided if the Government had greater powers to monitor people’s internet communications, defence experts have suggested.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10076002/Woolwich-attack-Snoopers-charter-could-have-prevented-machete-tragedy.html

  6. April Showers

    23 May, 2013 - 8:07 pm

    These thirteen ‘articles’ are listed on the home page of the Mail.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

    1. A loving father, an Afghan hero and a fine soldier: Face of ‘Riggers’ the innocent drummer, 25, ‘butchered in street by Muslim fanatics’
    2. The three Angels of Woolwich: The brave women who confronted fanatics who butchered and tried to behead soldier and prayed next to his body
    3. Side by side with preacher of hate? Choudary claims picture shows arrested Islamic fanatic, 28, at 2007 demo
    4. MAIL ONLINE EXCLUSIVE: Moment anti-terror police raid flat and arrest four people just a mile from scene of Woolwich killing
    5. Man and woman, both 29, arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to murder following Woolwich terror attack
    6. Side by side with preacher of hate? Choudary claims picture shows arrested Islamic fanatic, 28, at 2007 demo
    7. MI5 admit they KNEW about Islamic fanatics who ‘slaughtered soldier’: One suspect was ‘arrested when he tried to join rebels in Somalia’
    8. ‘The first guy goes for her with a machete… she took him out like Robocop…’: Rapper’s tweets among eyewitness accounts of horrific attack
    9. ‘Terror attack will not divide us but makes us stronger’: Cameron urges Britain to continue with normal life
    10. Police commander claims armed officers were on scene of Woolwich killing in 14 minutes – as 1,200 extra police are drafted onto the streets of London
    11. Ban on soldiers wearing uniforms in public lifted after concern it sent message that terrorists were winning
    12. Put extremists on first plane back to wherever they’ve come from, demands furious Tory MP Bob Stewart
    13. Hope for heroes: Wellwishers flood veterans’ charity website after sweatshirt worn by Woolwich victim was seen by millions

    Deplorable.

  7. April Showers

    23 May, 2013 - 8:14 pm

    Obama who promised the gullible Americans ‘hope and change’.

    23 May 2013 Last updated at 20:07

    Barack Obama defends ‘just war’ using drones

    US President Barack Obama speaks about his administration’s drone and counterterrorism policies, as well as the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, at the National Defense University in Washington, DC 23 May 2013

    Related Stories
    Legal case revealed
    Cost of secret drone war
    Viewpoint: Drones and modern war

    President Barack Obama has defended the use of drones as a “just war” of self-defence against deadly militants, and a campaign that had made America safer.

    In a wide-ranging speech on a programme shrouded in secrecy, he said there must be “near certainty” that no civilians would die in such strikes.

    In a renewed push to shut Guantanamo Bay, he also lifted a moratorium on prisoner transfers to Yemen.

    Mr Obama also defended the use of drones to kill four US citizens.

    “We are at war with an organisation that right now would kill as many Americans as they could if we did not stop them first,” he said in Thursday’s address at National Defense University in Washington DC.

    “So this is a just war – a war waged proportionally, in last resort, and in self-defence.”

    /..

    ‘Self-defence’! We have heard it all now.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22638533

  8. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2013 - 8:18 pm

    Resident dissident
    23 May, 2013 – 7:51 pm

    In answer to Craig’s comment:

    “Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict.”

    You say:

    “I disagree they are two distinct conflicts…”

    What are the two distinct conflicts and why don’t you elucidate?

    “…and trying to link them just gives both murderers a very weak excuse for their actions.”

    There are no excuses for these actions but there are reasons, perhaps you don’t understand that.

  9. April, I try to limit my consumption of the Daily Wail for much this reason – dreadful propaganda rag. I do tend towards the Media Lens view though – there’s no Washington men in black suits and shades who’ve instructed the reactionary press how to write. Sadly, there’s enough people who’ve been brought up with “the right opinions”, and the system self-selects them for its own self-interest.

    One or two make it through the net thankfully – Greenwald has been good as always on this. Reading below the line is depressing (isn’t it normally the other way around at the Guardian?) but there’s some valiant souls fighting against the (neo)con trolls.

  10. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2013 - 8:59 pm

    In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.

  11. There were two shocking moments yesterday – the first was the murder, the second was the official designation of this as terrorism.

    Apart from erecting a statue in their honour, I am not quite sure what more our leaders could have done to do exactly what these murderers wanted? These two monsters wanted to make a statement, and by golly, Cameron and his friends allowed them to make it exactly as planned.

    After the Boston bombers were id’d, hands down the best moment came when their uncle was interviewed and called them losers and screw-ups, who had shamed their family. He didn’t call them terrorists or bombers or extremists. He called them losers, he was 100% correct, and it should be the template for future official responses to what these days we call terrorism.

    This is not to disagree with any of the wider context, it is that the narrative from yesterday is pretty much giving a couple of losers the sort of martyrdom they crave.

  12. As seen on the available videos of the incident; people were milling around freely, and interacting with the “terrorists”. This clearly being the indicator that those present were not terrorised, or made to fear for their lives, to cower and run for cover.

    Further, even prime minister has been waxing lyrical about a female tenant standing up to the “terrorist” and arguing and debating with him. In the coming days as more and more of the videos of the incident will be making their way onto the internet, these will further verify the fact that the “terrorists” had singularly failed to terrorise those present, that is if they intended to terrorise the population present.

    Terrified and cowering people do not go about passing the “terrorists” carrying their shopping basket, whilst others were busy videoing the said chap. However, the Media, as in the case of Nick Robinson who pontificated; “the terrorists with Islamic appearance”, with others in the media joining in delivering emotive reportage; pushing the hot buttons, interspersed with “Islamic terrorists”, “help the heroes”, “beheading”, and even going so far as Anna Botting to claim the soldier had been kidnapped before getting hacked to death, and egging her guests on into a frenzy of “women forced to wear burka”, “policewoman shooting the “terrorist” ought to have come as a shock to him”!

    Then the programs of apparent gravitas beginning to debate the introduction of even more legislation, and availing the secret services with even more surveillance capabilities. All the while pushing the “Islamic terrorists” and the influence of the hate preachers, and fact that all the Muslims ought to be made to stand in the corner and made to apologise to all and sundry in the town squares; for being Muslims!

    The fact that these provocations have lead to the kristallnacht redux. Anyone surfing the net could not have escaped the racist bile heaped upon Muslims, and the promises and threats of reprisals, killings, and so forth. Whilst mosques have been getting attacked and Muslims terrorised, to the extent that these fearful Muslims have stopped their children from attending schools; for fear of reprisals. The “terror campaign” goes on, whilst in the confusion of the unfolding events, the media broadcast orders and counter orders getting issued in the same newscast bulletin.

    Fact that in the current climate of repression to explore the actions of these “terrorists” and their “motivations” would be construed as; aiding and abetting the “terrorists”. The only analysts have been the fascist organisations masquerading as neo conservatives; Henry Jackson Society, as well as the usual token brown skinned Quilliam foundation rep, that have gone onto debating their perceptions of the reasons underlying the radicalisation of Muslim youth getting “radicalised”.

    Terrorists do not hang around for twenty minutes, terrorists do not get into debates and argue with people present, terrorists do not invite people to take photos and videos, terrorists do not allow women to attend to their victims. Hence those classifying this attack as terrorism are engaging in hyperbole.

    Why should these political operatives wish to exploit this sad situation to their own ends? All the while discounting any links between the atrociously aggressive foreign policy of the UK, and pinning the blame on the fanaticism of the “Radicalised Muslims”? Is this not reminiscent of the policies of the ziofuckwits in zionistan?

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:13 pm

    My nomination for the idiotic comment of the day :

    Doug Scorgie (for it was he), who wrote at 0h59

    “In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.

  14. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:18 pm

    Fedup; That public reaction seemed strange to me. I remember the Kitty Genovese case in NY. She was attacked and murdered while screaming. People looked out their windows and told the guy to stop, but that was it. It was like people thought they were watching a reality show. Everyone reacts to shock in different ways, I guess. For me I get real calm when in shock. What I should do gets clear and I act instinctively.

  15. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:19 pm

    ” the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.”

    It’s a metaphor, and smartly accurate.

  16. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:21 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    You come out with the same line on this thread as pn the previous one, ie :

    “There are no excuses for these actions but there are reasons”

    So I’ll ask you the same question as I did on that previous thread : what, in your opinion, are those reasons?

    PS – why do you ask other commenters questions while not replying to questions addressed to you?

  17. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:25 pm

    @ Ben Franklin :

    “It’s a metaphor, and smartly accurate.”
    ———

    Thanks for that clarification, Ben. There was I, thinking that Scorgie meant it literally!

    As you’re obviously nobody’s fool, could you explain to us peasants the difference between something that smartly accurate and something that’s merely accurate?

    Thanks in advance!

  18. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    It would be idiotic, if literal. The ‘smart’ part is seeing past the veil.

  19. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:37 pm

    The Obsessive Poster is at it again!

    At 20h07 she lists 13 articles in the Daily Mail and ends with the single word “Deplorable”.
    ————-

    As so often it’s not quite clear what the cunning old thing’s getting at.

    Is it the number of articles she finds deplorable or is her criticism directed at one or more specific articles (if the latter, could she tell us which)?

    Which other articles related to this killing does she think the Mail should have published and which would have allowed her to drop the word “deplorable”?

  20. That story is dated December 2011.

    There is little similarity in the events, in one a soldier, who should’ve been confined to barracks, lashed out in a drunken rage and probably regretted his actions immediately afterwards. Yesterday two stone cold sober individuals carried out a pre-planned murder and savage mutilation of which they seemed quite proud. I wouldn’t describe them as being equally horrific nor do I think it reasonable to suppose that Crook had a pre-disposition to “murderous violence”.

    There’s no reason to bring up the Crook story except to try to somehow justify the murder of Drummer Rigby on the spurious grounds that the British army do things that are equally horrific.

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    Thank you, Ben Franklin.

    Just one further question : when you write “The ‘smart’ part is seeing past the veil.”, what exactly is the “veil”? As Doug Scorgie would say, could you elucidate?

  22. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:50 pm

    Kempe writes, correctly :

    “There’s no reason to bring up the Crook story except to try to somehow justify the murder of Drummer Rigby on the spurious grounds that the British army do things that are equally horrific”
    ————

    Well spotted. It is clear that some of the commenters are finding it difficult to accept that this was a heinous and unjustified act, carried out in the name of Islam. I suspect that their true feelings – which of course they wouldn’t have the guts to express – are feelings of approval or, at best, “the UK/the soldier brought it onto themselves”

  23. I think it was George Soros some years ago that made the point that they see us in the same way as we see them – as terrorists.

  24. Fedup
    23 May, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    Everything you said in this post confirms you to be an establishment troll.

    I urge everyone on this blog to study, word for word, Fedup’s posting.

  25. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 10:10 pm

    “troll’ is much overused as a convenient term, Doug. I looked again and Fedup seems to have a longer version of your 8:59.

  26. Fedup
    23 May, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    Everything you said in this post confirms you to be an establishment troll.

    I urge everyone on this blog to study, word for word, Fedup’s posting.

    What is your major fucking malfunction?

    What the fuck are you on about?

    How the fuck did you “confirm” Sherlock?

    ===

    PS. thanks for inviting everyone to read my comment.

  27. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 10:21 pm

    Nice one, Ben Franklin! :)

  28. The only certainty regarding yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value. There is an agenda in the MSM to encourage fear and hatred of Muslims. Whatever the actual events, the language used to describe it will have been chosen to inflame passions and raise tensions. Based on precedent, there is a high probability that the reporting includes half-truths and downright lies.

  29. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 10:41 pm

    @Scourge

    “In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.”

    Both factually and morally wrong – and it is not a metaphor but just plain crass.

    re your previous comment – I’m sure that most murderers have their own reasons for their actions it is pretty rare for these to amount to a valid excuse for their actions or for them to warrant the oxygen of publicity.

    And if Fedup is a troll then might I suggest that he is acting on behalf of the EDL rather than the establishment – either way he is best ignored.

  30. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 10:43 pm

    “Whatever the actual events,…” and “yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value…” (from A Node)

    What were the actual events in your opinion, A Node?

    And how should we take yesterday’s news in your opinion?

  31. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 10:46 pm

    “The only certainty regarding yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value.”

    I suspect that the only thing many here will take at face value are the Isreali Shekels Habba and I are paid in!

  32. Fedup is a troll then might I suggest that he is acting on behalf of the EDL rather than the establishment – either way he is best ignored.

    You have been so far eluding the points that have been put to you. There again, ostrich does what ostriches do. Although you then go on taking a fucking quantum leap to connect the dots to end up with EDL.

    However there always is the need for coming clean and unburdening, hence the following confession of the neo labour agent:

    …. the Isreali Shekels Habba and I are paid in

  33. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 11:02 pm

    “Both factually and morally wrong – and it is not a metaphor but just plain crass.”

    Perhaps if it were said in the presence of a Rigby family member, it would be insensitive. However, government responses have worsened the situation through foreign policy directives resulting in collateral deaths and disfigurement. As per usual, those most responsible for those casualties cannot be reached, so innocent citizens bear the brunt. When Chris Dorner melted down, his frustrated attempts to find and mete out his form of justice to the engineers of his troubles was thwarted by exigent circumstances. He murdered the daughter and future son-in-law of one party he sought, instead. True, his methodology and mission was corrupt, but he exhausted the rational means for resolution, and went barmy. It’s not a perfect analogy, but not all parties are innocent in that tragedy. Similarly, the hackers sought (and the video shows them just as self-righteous as Dorner) a solution; one they felt just and right about.

  34. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 11:02 pm

    “These thirteen ‘articles’ are listed on the home page of the Mail.

    Deplorable”

    Together with many many other articles – do you have a problem with newspapers reporting the news – or is your problem with these particular articles not saying what you want or is it something else? Personally I find most news articles in the Mail garbage and have done so for many years – I am little suprised that this is so new to you that it warrants comment.

  35. The ITV clip of the murderers statement is incomplete. ITV should not be rationing information, especially as their selected ration has time to show the murderer sashaying away from camera.

    In the obtained clip the murderers appearance and tone of voice is odd.

    The phonecall from the observer threatened with a gun by the perpetrators sounds hollow.

    The perpetrators wished to be filmed and to give statements. Why did they not prerecord and publish anything themselves on modern media? – I expect this may follow now, but why would such ‘composed’ terrorists not have efficiently arranged their own statement?

    I find their are multiple other matters of doubt about the event which there is not much worth belabouring. They will be covered haplessly in high pageranked discussions which include other weird themes.

    Regardless of disbelief, this event will be reported and discussed by mass media in a particular way. That particular way we know, does never elevate the true solutions to this kind of insanity.

  36. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 11:11 pm

    Fedup

    Think it through, my comment was addressed to what Scourge wrote. For the record, I don’t think you are a troll for the EDL and you genuinely believe most of the garbage you write.

  37. …. genuinely believe most of the garbage you write.

    Projections! projections!

    Your poxy contribution that needs to be further explained was not written out by me now, was it? You naughty ostrich you were being facetious, alas without much success, weren’t you?

    Further, because you are one of those benighted souls with heavy scales on your eyes and very fat lala fingers in your ears, it is far too easy for you to pronounces away, and get on with your dissent against dissidents.

  38. I thought Fedup’s 9:11pm comment, made a number of fair points, I would say it is the sort of analysis, with a sustained compelling argument, that makes this blog’s comment section of more than usual interest, such contributions are far more valuable than the sugary one-liners and quips that hardly leave an impression in the accumulating dust.

    [for the benefit of new readers, there are four recognisable trolls here: Habba-Thing, Kempe, Resident Troll and the apprentice mole Fred, of whom great things are not expected]

    It is highly comical to see those universally acknowledged as trolls those self-evidently ever engaging in persistent and sustained trolling, denouncing someone else, the blog spiralling into a troll-fest, with the usual suspects (see above) nauseatingly reinforcing one another’s preposterous apologia for all the evils of power, wealth and their sick elitist cult, whilst pouring their bile on the powerless or anyone daring or presuming to speak up for them, tender facts, logic and argument countering authoritarian orthodoxy, whenever they so much as rattle the bars of their cages.

    ‘Doug Scorgie’s’ comment is puzzling, could you explain the strange exception you have taken to Fedup’s comment, or let the previous Doug Scorgie return?

    Let no-one be in any doubt their are three victims in this, one is the army hireling and the others are the two young men driven to this desperate act, by whatever imponderable forces.

  39. The Crook death/the Rigby death, method and motive, murderer crazed by alcohol or religious belief, it would make little differnce to the agony of the bereaved.
    BTW in this case ‘born’ not ‘borne’.

  40. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    24 May, 2013 - 12:58 am

    Adriana;

    Even the bereaved require answers as to ‘why?’.

  41. April Showers.

    Your link [The Search for Change 23 May, 2013 - 7:23 am] (thankyou) which described Theresa May taking powers to strip Scotland Yard [the Met] of their counter-terrorism role is interesting and relevant here.

    A close contact (we meet twice weekly) with information on the Met not generally made public has described to me the relationship between MI5, Special Branch and the Met. The connection is historic and has its roots in the early 1970s when the anti-terrorist branch and the “bomb squad” was set up to counter the threat from anarchist groups, such as the Angry Brigade, as well take part in the campaign against the IRA.

    Keith Bristow will become the head of the National Crime Agency when it is formed in October this year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Bristow

    Bristow is a member of Chatham House and sings from the same hymn-sheet on counter-terrorism:

    http://www.chathamhouse.org/research/security/current-projects/ten-years-technology-and-counter-terrorism-911

    Chatham House (RIIA) is engaged in the polemics of Britain’s (and American-now lead) neo-imperial offensive around the world. The chess pieces – MP’s (pawns) Military and security services form part of this plan encompassed within the 100 year ‘war on terror.’

    Keep in mind Britain controls, primarily via the City of London, but also through de facto City of London subsidiaries in Asia and elsewhere, a significant percentage of international financial flows. That is key to the big picture because in our paradigm currency=corruption.

    That corruption begets slaughter, murder, torture, destruction and assassination of whatever, all, everybody that would seriously damage this master strategy or Britain and America’s informal global financial empire – the ‘Anglo-American diaspora in the vocabulary of transnationalism. Simply it is Britain who steers the West’s global construct which is now centered toward Asia or Southeast Asia and the Pacific Rim.

    Thus the master strategy includes the destruction of Syria or essentially Iran, the major energy supplier to China, the Asian super-power.

    With the big picture exposed we can focus back. With Scotland Yard (The Met)out of the loop the constraints on discretion, caution and heed in the public interest will be lacking, down the drain.

    The lunatics will be further empowered.

    To Alison – with thanks

  42. A clutch of 8 hahacluck eggs, all different sizes suitably covered in farmyard goo in a secondhand carton including feathers. Bdok-bdok-bdok-bdok bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh. Well done habaku!!!

  43. “War seems to me to be a mean, contemptible thing: I would rather be hacked in pieces than take part in such an abominable business. And yet so high, in spite of everything, is my opinion of the human race that I believe this bogey would have disappeared long ago, had the sound sense of the nations not been systematically corrupted by commercial and political interests acting through the schools and the Press.”

    Albert Einstein

  44. A little more context: Einstein talking about War, Nature, Religion, The Mysterious and The snuffed-out Candle, Habbakuk…

    “This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of the herd nature, the military system, which I abhor. That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed.

    Heroism by order, senseless violence, and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism-how I hate them! War seems to me a mean, contemptible thing: I would rather be hacked in pieces than take part in such an abominable business. And yet so high, in spite of everything, is my opinion of the human race that I believe this bogey would have disappeared long ago, had sound sense of the nations not been systematic corrupted by commercial and political interestrs acting through the schools and the Press.

    The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle.

    It was the experience of mystery–even if mixed with fear–that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms–it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

    I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.”

    http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/worldsee2.html

  45. BrianFujisan

    24 May, 2013 - 7:13 am

    Villager Apart from being such a clever man, Einstein was Big on Wisdom. I particularly liked his Quote regarding WW3, and WW4 –

    I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein –

    Here’s An exelent piece on the Woolwich Killing by John Hilley

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013_05_01_archive.html

  46. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:03 am

    The use of the word ‘machete’ in these reports indicates an overall problem, not only with accurate news reporting, but peoples own critical thinking.

    There is no machete. There was no machete. There has never been a machete. It seems that people are unconcerned with facts in the news media these days.

  47. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:10 am

    Thanks Brian.

    That excellent John Hilley blog confirms my memory of Robinson’s comment which came out immediately after the news broke. Quite vile. I commented on it on the Search for change thread.

    ’22 May, 2013 – 7:36 pm
    Ref the savage murder of a member of the armed forces in Woolwich this afternoon.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

    1908: The BBC’s Nick Robinson tweets: “To those offended by my describing the attacker as of “Muslim appearance” – I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police.”

    He was a study in severity. He repeated the phrase ‘of Muslim appearance’ at least twice in the 6pm News on BBC1. The T word was used too and we were reminded of 7/7 and other terrorist attacks.’

    John Hilley writes -

    ‘In essence, is state killing not terrorism? Are people not terrorised, terrified, by helicopter gunships? Is the killing of a person in this way any more or less gruesome than the obliteration of an Afghan child with an M16 missile? Is a ‘surgical strike’ any more palatable than a surgical hacking? Would the bloody outcomes of Nato strikes ever appear so graphically on front pages the way they have for the Woolwich killing?

    Having dutifully repeated what official sources had briefed as a ‘terrorist’ attack, the BBC’s Nick Robinson later tweeted: “To those offended by my describing the attacker as of “Muslim appearance” – I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police.”

    Robinson later apologised for the remark. Yet, alongside the insistence on a ‘terrorist’ crime, here, unwittingly revealed, was a consensually-loaded interpretation from police, government and the BBC.

    What, does a Muslim supposedly ‘look like’? Is it conceivable that any of these institutions would ever speak of an alleged attacker as being of ‘Christian appearance’ or ‘Jewish appearance’?’

    Thanks also for all the comments from the non-trolls. The trolls have arrived here in bucketfulls needless to say.

    There were one or two comments from RD on the Werrity and Usmanov and preceding threads but on this one and the two previous, there are dozens. The RI has also been called back in we note. Interesting?

    Keep going everyone.

  48. Keith Crosby

    24 May, 2013 - 8:14 am

    Pre-disposition? Careful Craig, you’re straying into “us” and “them” territory, when showing that you were a “them”, by refusing to collaborate with the British state’s terror apparatus is what got you into such trouble.

    The squaddie was a volunteer, knew the risks and took the money. It’s a pity he’s dead but no more a pity than are the hecatombs of dead his terrorist organisation has done so much to create. If the two killers had done the deed sitting down in a helicopter in Afghanistan, would they be labelled as monsters or “pre-disposed”? I doubt it.

  49. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:22 am

    “It is clear that some of the commenters are finding it difficult to accept that this was a heinous and unjustified act, carried out in the name of Islam.”

    With so many other possibilities available why should people always plump for the ‘official’ narrative provided by politicians and media as if they are some kind of divine light of truth? There was no machete and equally there may be no ‘Muslim terrorists’ shouting Allah Akbhar and there may have been no ‘beheading’.

    News has often been manufactured throughout history in order to advance a political agenda and this is simply a part of that, the events are real, the consequences are real but the motives are false.

  50. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:29 am

    A ‘royal commentator’ and the psychologist Linda Papadopoulos were reviewing the papers on Sky News. They thought this piece was excellent and helpfully reminded us that the H for H website crashed yesterday due to the deluge of visits. Truly heart warming they said.

    You may laugh at the strange miscellany of names and faces here.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4940297/Top-Gear-host-Jeremy-Clarkson-and-other-celebrities-urge-people-to-stand-in-solidarity-with-murdered-Lee-Rigby-and-support-Help-for-Heroes.html

  51. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:40 am

    During the video interview of the ranting ‘terrorist’ he exhorts the viewers to ‘remove your government’ – now here’s a man who’s faith in Western democracy should put us all to shame.

  52. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:43 am

    THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE

    Since the tragic news emerged that a serving soldier had been murdered in Woolwich, we have been overwhelmed with people
    spontaneously choosing to show their support for the Armed Forces.

    Help for Heroes was born out of a simple desire to assist the wounded and that remains unchanged. All funds we receive are used to provide direct, practical support to those affected by their service to our country.

    We ask all our volunteers, fundraisers and donors to respect the victim’s family, colleagues and friends who are grieving.

    If you do choose to support those who have been wounded, injured or become sick you can do so in the following ways:

    By donating online or by texting “HERO” to 70900 to donate £5.

    If you wish to buy supporter items from our shop, please go to shop.helpforheroes.org.uk.

    If you have a media enquiry please email our team on prcomms@helpforheroes.org.uk or call us on 01725 514 276

    Team H4H

    ~~

    Their trustees and patrons. All human life is there.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_for_Heroes

    Income £46,703,000
    Spending -£17,051,000
    http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1120920&SubsidiaryNumber=0

    I see the Advocate General is on the list of trustees. Another {military} judge advocate sent Ft Lt Kendall-Smith to prison plus £20,000 costs for refusing to return to Iraq.

    A ruling on 22 March 2006, by the judge advocate Jack Bayliss, concurred. Bayliss dismissed Kendall-Smith’s argument, ruling that he must face trial by court martial and would not be allowed to argue that the order to deploy was illegal.[6] Obviating Kendall-Smith’s argument that any participation in the war effort was unlawful on the basis of an illegal invasion, Bayliss asserted that British forces had full justification under UN resolutions 1511 and 1546 to be in Iraq at the time the charges were filed against Kendall-Smith in June and July, 2005.[6] The judge advocate also rejected Kendall-Smith’s claim that by serving in Iraq he could be complicit in a crime of aggression. Such a crime “cannot be committed by those in relatively junior positions such as that of the defendant. If a defendant believed that to go to Basra would make him complicit in the crime of aggression, his understanding of the law was wrong,” Bayliss said.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Kendall-Smith

    A travesty.

  53. Cleared diplomat John Yapp criticises Foreign Office

    The former UK High Commissioner to Belize, who was removed from his post amid claims of sexual misconduct and bullying, has spoken of his “humiliating” fight to clear his name.

    John Yapp, of Eastbourne, East Sussex, lost his post in 2008 over claims he inappropriately touched women.

    The allegations were dropped but he then faced claims he had bullied staff.

    The High Court ruled the Foreign and Commonwealth Office broke his contract and failed in its duty of care to him.

    Mr Yapp said it had all been “profoundly humiliating”.

    He said he had an unblemished diplomatic career for 37 years before a former foreign minister in Belize alleged he had inappropriately touched women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-22646338

  54. A mostly good post Craig but the conclusion is wrong, I believe.

    You have described violent murders as sociopathic. Sociopaths are estimated to be around 2% of the population, yet most bloody killings in theatres of conflict are certainly not committed by sociopaths. Predisposition to violence is not necessarily an illness. It’s an extreme attribute of human nature.

    Violent crimes should not be conflated with each other, either. We can’t begin to solve problems that lead to violent crime if we bundle them up and throw them together in the ‘too hard basket’. There are uniquely arbitrary outbursts of violence that have many explanations from mental illness and brain tumours to emotional rages of frustration and hatred. The murder of an Afghan child by a British soldier might fit into this category and should be studied to identify potential preventative measures.

    But then there is purposeful cold-blooded violence like mafia murders, political assassinations and public executions. The UK had hanging, drawing and quatering on its books for high treason as late as the 19th century, I believe. This method of dealing with traitors was more bloody and savage than that suffered by the poor soldier, Lee Rigby. And it was purposeful with a terrifying message for anyone who had any ideas of undermining the crown. Terrorism, you could call it.

    Michael Adebolajo is the alleged killer and, if we accept this without quibbling, we can say that he was certainly purposeful in his killing of Lee Rigby. But his purpose was not just to kill a British soldier, it was to send a terrifying message to people who are engaged in or appear to be associated with military action that results in the deaths of Muslims. Lee Rigby’s body was dragged onto the road in order to display his mutilated remains to the public. The murder was political in its purpose and consistent with the teachings of his faith. Terrorism, you might say.

    What is the underlying cause? What are the common elements?

    Is it too controversial to suggest that most violent crimes are committed by younger males who are fit and strong? Look at violent crime around the world. Ignore “race”, culture, religion and politics – most crimes are committed by younger males. Of course, some clever types will say that not all young males are predisposed to violence. And I say not all men are rapists. So what?

    Many young males, the sort who you would have a beer with and watch a football game, will readily turn to violence when the conditions are right. Anybody see any riots lately?

    And all of these males who are prepared to use violence under certain conditions are also readily programmable for violence in the name of a Great Cause. The 20th century is full of such causes. Young men who are ignorant, restless, emotionally immature, sexually excitable – all in search of a Great Cause into which they can channel their energies. All you need is an idea to put them to work.

    Michael Adebolajo found a Great Cause – one that has over a thousand years of glorious history. When Michael spoke to a witness who recorded his statement on her phone, he was lucid, rational and apologetic for the impact the killing had on passing women. He described why he committed the murder and what he hoped to achieve. 

    Michael Adeboljo is not crazy. He is just a restless, lost soul who wants to be part of something Great.

  55. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 9:19 am

    I went to see a Dennis Potter play yesterday, Blue Remembered Hills. It was very well performed by Northern Stage. It was a Play for the Day in 1973 when the BBC commissioned decent thought-provoking drama.

    Dennis Potter took the title from this wonderful little A E Housman poem.

    Into my heart an air that kills
    From yon far country blows:
    What are those blue remembered hills,
    What spires, what farms are those?

    That is the land of lost content,
    I see it shining plain,
    The happy highways where I went
    And cannot come again.

    A synopsis.

    ‘On an idyllic summer afternoon in wartime, seven children play, tease and fight their day away. Willie is pretending to be a Spitfire, Raymond is dressed as a cowboy and Angela doesn’t want to share her china doll with Audrey. And while John and Peter are vying to be leader of the gang, who is that little boy left alone in the barn…? Amidst their hilarious games and complex friendships the merriment turns sour when they stumble into a sudden and unexpected tragedy that will change their lives forever.

    Potter’s charming and profound play captures humanity, his wicked humour and his fierce intolerance of cruelty, reminding us that no-one is ever truly innocent.’

    Potter speaks for our agony. There is no way to conjure back ‘the blue remembered hills’ unless by sheer will and with FACT. Take Question Time last night. A sensitive young man’s points re our arming of Saudi Arabia and about Palestine were squashed. They should have led to a discussion about ‘supreme war crimes’ and all that flows from them.

  56. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 9:24 am

    Guano has made merry of late with his little quips likening my comments to eggs.

    He might do well to reflect pn the following : is it better to be a hen that lays eggs out of its backside or the other product that seagulls drop out of their backsides off the coasts of far-away Chile?

  57. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 9:28 am

    Grownups! Take some deep breaths there.

    It seemed like the trolls were going to take over the assylum for a while. Even Dad appeared almost sane alongside Jemand.

    Hats off to Technicolour and all who have tried so valiantly to reason with that particular meme.

    Thanks to all (almost) for the mountain of info.

    I have a question for Dad, RD and Mr Kempe. I would be interested to hear from you what is the annual death-toll in the, so called, “War on Terror,” for any of the last five years, in these categories.

    1. Civilians of Muslim appearance.
    2. Civilians of Christian appearance.

    And, for each category, who produced / supplied the weapons?

    And Jemand, I know you don’t do facts so this question isn’t addressed to you.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 9:29 am

    @ post at 09h19 :

    a Denis Potter play – Question Time.

    Connection? Relevance (to anything)?

    I do note however that even April Shower’s extra-curricular activities are grist to her blog mill.

    No Harold Hobson she.

  59. The murder in Woolwich was part of Islamist terrorism which is an aggravating circumstance and justifies looking away the guilty parties for life as well as asking how such attacks might be prevented in future. I understand that one of them was a Islamist street ranter, so such people might need more careful watching.

    The soldier who stabbed a child while under the influence deserved severe punishment for his drunken violence, but that was not the same type of crime.

  60. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 9:39 am

    Ok.

    I know that’s asking too much, so I’ll ask instead, for every civilian victim of Islamist violence, how many civilian victims of “War on Terror” violence?

    My guess is that one number will have one, or at most, two zeros, and the other will have many more.

  61. Einstein: good catch.
    Machete: illiterate journo-school fodder. It is well known that black people spend their time murdering each other with machetes, therefore this was a machete…

    One that bothered me: R4 Today programme yesterday reported: “The suspects are said to be of Muslim appearance” (the announcer was careful to stress “said to be”…conclusion – this was an early police press release delivered verbatim)

    Well, damn me. I’d have put my foot in it and said they were both of African appearance (see link). And it turns out the parents of one (who have my complete sympathy, incidentally) were devout Christians. But now I know what a Muslim looks like*, I’ll never make the same mistake again.

    *Nothing like Menendez…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10076239/Woolwich-attack-suspects-were-known-to-security-services.html

    Before the usual suspects weigh in with the usual stuff, yes, it was a disgusting act by complete bastards professing ( but I doubt if they were practising, since crack cocaine has been mentioned in the context of their lifestyle) to be Muslims. Most Muslims will be as appalled by this as you profess to be, usual ones. If you’re a British Muslim, whether of Muslim appearance or not, you’re British, and you don’t hack British people to death…this is widely understood. Still.

  62. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 9:49 am

    The RI is so-ooo silly. That synopsis was not written by me. It comes from the Northern Stage website.

    A Northern Stage Production

    Written by Dennis Potter

    Directed by Psyche Stott

    Into my heart an air that kills
    From yon far country blows:
    What are those blue remembered hills,
    What spires, what farms are those?
    AE Housman

    Almost 20 years after his death, Dennis Potter’s BAFTA-winning play is moving, funny and unforgettable.

    On an idyllic summer afternoon in wartime, seven children play, tease and fight their day away. Willie is pretending to be a Spitfire, Raymond is dressed as a cowboy and Angela doesn’t want to share her china doll with Audrey. And while John and Peter are vying to be leader of the gang, who is that little boy left alone in the barn…? Amidst their hilarious games and complex friendships the merriment turns sour when they stumble into a sudden and unexpected tragedy that will change their lives forever.

    Potter’s charming and profound play captures humanity, his wicked humour and his fierce intolerance of cruelty, reminding us that no-one is ever truly innocent.

    Visit blueremembered.co.uk for more about the show.
    ~~

    He/she/it suggests that I am no Harold Hobson as if I had put myself up as some theatrical reviewer. Suggest that he/she/it could be a latter day stand in for Kelvin McKenzie or the like if we are speaking of the press.

  63. Brixton 1983. Not terrorists. (then, terrorists had Irish accents and were not of Muslim appearance) Probable folk-memory of machetes formed here. Murder still unsolved. RIP.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock

  64. “The RI is so-ooo silly. That synopsis was not written by me. It comes from the Northern Stage website.”

    Mary, if you can’t use italics or blockquotes, perhaps more frequent use of quotation marks might be in order? For example, you seem (?) to have taken a large copy and paste from John Hilley at 8:10 am, and then, after ‘Jewish appearance’?’ you carry on in your own words with no apparent break.

    I had just come from John Hilley (via Brian’s link), and I didn’t need your large excerpt, thanks, but if you’re going to use copy and pastes, you might find a way to differentiate clearly between them and your own words. It would help. Thanks!

    —————-

    As for Help for Heroes, links would have been more than enough, for me. The word “Hero” has become badly debased. One assumes that a British soldier who stabs a young Afghan child, or perhaps tortures an Afghan adult, and is later wounded himself and flown home, is considered one of these “heroes”. Either there or on the Sky Wall
    http://news.sky.com/story/951515/fallen-heroes-tributes-to-the-fallen-british-military-personnel-in-afghanistan

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:01 am

    Dreoilin to April Showers :

    “…but if you’re going to use copy and pastes, you might find a way to differentiate clearly between them and your own words. It would help. Thanks!”
    ——–

    My thoughts exactly. Thank you, Dreoilin.

    Of course April/Mary does this deliberately, it gives her an escape route (“oh, it wasn’t me, I was just quoting”). Very courageous!

  66. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:04 am

    “as if I had put myself up as some theatrical reviewer.”

    Doesn’t she? Poetry too, on occasion. No William Empson either.

  67. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:11 am

    In the video notice the blue car and the person casually walking between the car and the railings. If you then look at the aerial shot of the car it is clear that the person would have had to have walked right through the middle of a large pool of freshly spilled blood, no doubt that person would have even smelled the warm moist odour of that congealing blood, that person could not have failed to notice that the wide and long smear of blood that led into the road, whereupon a headless corpse lay – how can it appear that none of this is of the slightest concern to the person?

    So, what is happening to people that seeing someone beheaded in the street appears to be just part and parcel of everyday life? That people wander up to a headless corpse lying in the street, sit down beside it, rub it on the back, jump back up and continue chatting with other bystanders whilst hanging around doing nothing and with the corpse at their feet and while to fully armed murders are still present?

  68. This attack was as fake as the Boston bombings. There was no blood on the street around the victim even though they are said to have tried to cut off his head. There is no blood on the clothes of either attacker when they are pictured. If I came across two men trying to cut off someone’s head in the street I would run for my life or vomit not stand around watching and I certainly wouldn’t try and video a madman with two knives make a speech.

  69. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:22 am

    Dad!

    You are at it again!

    Dreoilin dealt effectively and politely with April’s literary crimes. Issue dealt with n’est pas?

    But not for Dad. Instead of answering my (simplified) question you went and told April off with your unique vindictive flair.

    I’m “On- Topic” for a change and I’m still waiting.

  70. “oh it wasn’t me, I was just clucking” Don’t worry, we know you cluck when you have typed your egg, and it wasn’t you that devised this Wollywood film of hacking an innocent victim without blood so that the real hacking job of bugging us all could go through parliament.

    I listened to pickles on R4 this morning. Bdok-bdok-bdok-bdok bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh . You’d have thought he’d just fertilised an entire battery of chickens, so pleased and smug was he to have found the false-flag ammunition to bring back the spyers’ charter bill.

    Incidentally hahachuckle chickens do also make g***o.

  71. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:29 am

    It is now coming out that the soldier was in fact not decapitated. So, no machete and no decapitation. Gosh, if it wan’t for that ranting interview people could be mistaken for thinking that this was just a brutal murder instead of the dawn of a new era of a new type of Islamic terrorist threat, one that David Cameron was already totally versed in even as the story was developing.

  72. Soufflé

    You’re so quick to rise to the slightest thing your dad does. I hate to split up a loving family, but do you not think it would be better if you left him alone for a while to do his own thing. No eggs and the cake will fall apart, but too many eggs and it will turn out like rock. We can cope with a little bit of proud neo-natal boasting.

  73. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:39 am

    Jesuit Atheist.

    Why let facts get in the way of a good story?

    As Mr Komodo pointed out “machette” carries powerful imagery of dark-skinned foreign savages and “beheading” is guaranteed to evoke strong visceral feelings in the target population. So why not throw them both in?

  74. You’d have thought (Eric Pickles had) just fertilised an entire battery of chickens…

    Perish the thought that he’d just eaten them instead. Along with all the pies and his weight in chips. Eh, Fred?

  75. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:42 am

    A large man has just hacked someone to death, his hands are covered in his victims blood, he walks towards you still carrying the weapons. Naturally you just stand there filming him….

    The more I watch that interview the more bollocks it is. At the end he turns to walk back to the corpse, look at him looking for his marker* on the road, you can even see it. The whole interview appears to have been prearranged right down to the camera angle, ensuring that we have the potent images of murderer with victim in the background – the directors cut.

    *actors will understand.

  76. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:42 am

    Guano.

    What? Like I can change my genes?

  77. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:48 am

    Ah, here we go – as I was expecting, a conspiracy theory (discount version)is emerging (MJones, Jesuit Atheist). All aboard, chaps and chapesses!

  78. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:59 am

    Dad.

    I’m still waiting for you to answer a simple question.

  79. Touché Soufflé

    Which came first? I suggest you modify his genes and wait for Mr Pickles to do the rest.

    Yes Habba conspiracy. Messy I know, but to make a good Home=lette, you have to break a few – precious – eggs.

  80. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    23 May, 2013 – 9:13 pm

    My nomination for the idiotic comment of the day :

    Doug Scorgie (for it was he), who wrote at 0h59

    “In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.”

    Halfakunt doesn’t know what a metaphor is!!

    Metaphorically speaking is a turn of phrase that means that what has been said has not to be taken literally.

    You are an arse. (Metaphorically speaking).

  81. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 12:22 pm

    Habbabkuk: Do try and add something to the debate.

    Explain why everyone is talking about a soldier being decapitated with a machete when no such thing has actually happened?

    And if that is not true then maybe those guys are not Muslim terrorists after all eh? Think about that bit did you?

  82. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    23 May, 2013 – 9:21 pm

    When people commit crime there are no excuses but there are reasons (unless the criminal is insane).

    If a man kills a woman (or vice versa) one reason could be jealousy another could be financial advantage, whatever.

    If someone burgles a house it is usually to steal items to sell, perhaps to feed a drug habit, perhaps to pay off debts or just to supplement a low income.

    These are reasons (motives if you prefer) not excuses.

    You don’t seem to understand the difference HB.

  83. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 12:30 pm

    Sofia

    The reason why your Dad is ignoring you is probably because he thinks it was a stupid question – but as I am a generous soul the answer to both 1 and 2 is zero since despite what certain silly old ladies may have told you religous beliefs (or criminal beliefs for that matter) do not manifest themselves in appearances. You might also wish to reflect that numbers of victims do not have always have a bearing on the rights and wrongs of military actions e.g. the number of British and US victims of WW2 were considerably less than those of Nazi Germany but that doesn’t mean that we wrong in waging that war or that any unhinged Nazis would be justified in attacking off duty solidiers with a meat cleaver.

  84. Pretty inefficient conspiracy, I’d say, if the murderers have to hang around for 20 minutes for the AR squad to come and shoot them. Even with blanks, if your conspiracy theory wanders that far.

    Ok. Two big demented lowlifes with cleavers and a gun start on a citizen near you. You’ve probably never seen a citizen being hacked to death before, and he’s making loud and extremely distressing noises. What do you do? Interpose your person between them? Well, of course you would. Any conspiracy theorist would, wouldn’t they? Pity there wasn’t one there.

  85. “You are an arse. (Metaphorically speaking).”

    I think you’ll find that, in its current context, that’s a tautology, not a metaphor, Doug.

  86. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 12:44 pm

    Komodo: “Two big demented lowlifes with cleavers and a gun start on a citizen near you… What do you do? Interpose your person between them?”

    No, you just stand around casually filming them giving an after event interview? Get a grip man, it’s utter bollocks. No machete, no decapitation, but the Islamic terrorist bit is true right?

  87. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 12:47 pm

    Good for the two judges here

    24 May 2013

    ‘Iraq abuse claims: ‘Inadequate response’ by UK government
    The MoD has held inquiries into abuse in Iraq

    Related Stories
    Iraqis claim UK forces ‘brutality’
    Iraqi eyewitness: Mistreatment by UK troops

    The British government’s response to claims that British troops abused and unlawfully killed civilians in Iraq was inadequate, the High Court has ruled.

    Lawyers representing 180 Iraqi civilians had called for a full public inquiry in Britain.

    The court stopped short of ordering such an inquiry, but said there should be a series of further investigations into the allegations.

    It said “a new approach” to the inquiry into the allegations was needed.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22655384

    The Judgement.

    ‘PRESIDENT OF THE QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION
    MR JUSTICE SILBER
    ____________________
    Between: R (ALI ZAKI MOUSA and others)
    Claimants

    – and -

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE
    Defendant
    ____________________

    Michael Fordham QC, James Maurici, Danny Friedman QC, Dan Squires (instructed by Public Interest Lawyers) for the Claimants

    James Eadie QC, Philip Havers QC and Kate Grange (instructed by The Treasury Solicitor) for the Defendants

    Hearing dates: 11 December 2012, 29-31 January and 22 March 2013′

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/1412.html

    The multiple lawyers have done well out of the case.

    Enough inverted commas there I trust for the pedantic Dreoilin?
    Synonyms Pedantic – punctilious – donnish – priggish – meticulous

  88. ‘This attack was as fake as the Boston bombings. There was no blood on the street around the victim even though they are said to have tried to cut off his head.’

    MJones- either you have a Ph.D in advanced bullshittery or you’re the real ‘troll’.

    This you tube clip, to say the least, undermines your fanciful theory-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtV7qkuNnk

    I nominate you as the MI5/Mossad/ANOther Troll Of The Day and claim my £10 reward

  89. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 12:51 pm

    RD.

    Thanks for at least trying.

    You missed the point so let me ask it again as simply in simple language.

    1. How many civilians get killed by Islamic terrorists in the real world?

    2. How many civilians get billed by those waging the “War on Terror” in the real world?

    Is that easy enough for you to understand?

  90. Kempe @9.40PM

    I rarely agree with your comments, and you’ve had the troll handle thrown at you a few times, but you are spot-on in your criticism here.

  91. Fedup
    23 May, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    I said to Fedup:

    “Everything you said in this post confirms you to be an establishment troll.”

    I take that statement back and apologise to Fedup.

    I was under the influence of liquid refreshments when I read his original comment.

  92. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 12:54 pm

    “Pretty inefficient conspiracy, I’d say, if the murderers have to hang around for 20 minutes for the AR squad to come and shoot them. Even with blanks, if your conspiracy theory wanders that far.”

    I have no ‘conspiracy thoeory’, I am pointing out anomalies and factual errors in the reporting of a murder because, for some reason, the journalists in this country can’t seem to manage the most basic duties of their chosen career.

  93. No, you just stand around casually filming them giving an after event interview? Get a grip man, it’s utter bollocks. No machete, no decapitation, but the Islamic terrorist bit is true right?

    If the want to talk instead of having a go at me I encourage them to talk, friend. No machete, sure. Meat cleaver, knife, gun but no machete. No decapitation? Disappointed by that, are you? Not enough for you that the soldier’s dead? And if the guy says to camera that he is avenging the deaths of Muslims, then I have to incline to the view that he’s got something going for Islam.

    That said, it is arguable that no definition of terrorism that includes the Woolwich murder can conceivably exclude drone strikes. I give you that much, readily. And so does Glenn Greenwald:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback

  94. Habbabkuk

    So two men just murder a soldier, hang around to be arrested and that doesn’t seem a little odd to you. Conspiracy theorist seems to mean person with common sense these days. The main stream media has shown itself to be little more than a government spokesman, they do very little investigation and just repeat what they have been told by the authorities. If that doesn’t encourage you to have a more critical view of what they try and sell you as the truth don’t criticise me for being more than a little reluctant to.

  95. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 1:07 pm

    “Pretty inefficient conspiracy, I’d say, if the murderers have to hang around for 20 minutes for the AR squad to come and shoot them.”

    If they had run off or been shot by one of the hundreds of armed soldiers stationed just yards away in the barracks (yes, where were they?) we would never have known that they were “Muslim terrorists” would we?

    In fact if it wasn’t for the hanging around and the interview we wouldn’t even “know” they were “Muslim terrorists” would we? They could have just been some drug crazed scumbags. So, in fact, the hanging around works in favour of this being a staged event.

  96. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 1:11 pm

    Oops! I must not write in haste!

    Sorry, a freudian slip there, “How many civilians get billed……”

    Well we all pay for damned killing don’t we? But I think even the most trollish understood what I was really asking.

    So Dad, Mr Kempe and RD, I’m still waiting for an answer for my “stupid question”.

  97. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 1:14 pm

    Also, there is no doubt that journalists were being briefed by ‘officials’ throughout the event, using phrases like “said to be” and “reported to have said” etc.

    This is how journalists interject their source’s material into their reports. And what was mostly the subject of these “said to be”‘s and “reported to have said”‘s? Their links to Islamic terrorism and the internet… basically some government/police spokesperson is whispering in the journalists ear ‘moslem terrorists radicalised on the internet’ and Nick Robinson and co. dutifully repeat verbatim.

  98. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    “No machete, sure. Meat cleaver, knife, gun but no machete. No decapitation? Disappointed by that, are you?”

    Disappointed with the level or journalism mate, and to be honest disappointed that people swallow it so willingly.

    A young man was murdered in the most brutal fashion and I believe that he was murdered to further a political agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam or the stated motives of the killers.

    Why do you have a problem with me holding this view?

  99. doug scorgie

    24 May, 2013 - 1:21 pm

    MJones
    24 May, 2013 – 11:14 am

    “This attack was as fake as the Boston bombings.”

    MJones, don’t be silly.

  100. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 1:22 pm

    Sofia

    I think you missed my point that conflicts are not always about a numbers game – I don’t really want to go through the whole argument about Western Intervention and Islamism as my guess is that it would only generate heat rather than light here. But perhaps you should just consider a little something in Lindsey German’s statement yesterday – where she pointed to the recent increase in sectarian violence in Iraq. THis has happened – but what she failed to point out that the level has reduced very substantially in recent years – but rather than trying to identify steps to try and get things back on course (and reduce the level of killing which results) she wanted to try and link this to what is pretty clearly a sectarian assault on our streets in London. Do you really think this is the behaviour of those who want to reduce violence or killings in the future – or is it perhaps the behaviour of those trying to justify an histroic political position and indulging in point scoring.

    MJones

    Of course it was a conspiracy – nearly all criminal acts are – it is just not the one that you and others are now trying to fashion in order to fit your political preferences.

  101. Ignore the bit after the ranting madman and the comments on the pages but look at this, no blood on his hands

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc62gkSN8W0&feature=player_embedded&bpctr=1369351669

    Then look at the news

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhnv56qBk4Y

    You so sure I’m being silly

  102. resident dissident

    I don’t have a political preference I just prefer to be told the truth and there doesn’t seem to be a lot out there in media land.

  103. “Enough inverted commas there I trust for the pedantic Dreoilin?
    Synonyms Pedantic – punctilious – donnish – priggish – meticulous”

    Mary/April, it has feck-all to do with all that crap. It’s so your posts can be easier read and understood. And so we know what’s quoted and what’s not.

    And no, you have not adequately distinguished copy and paste from your own words, above, either. Can you not put inverted commas at the beginning and end of copy and paste?

    I’ve been intending to say that to you for months. Habbabkuk simply served as a reminder.

  104. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 1:56 pm

    Did the Lt Col mean to imply that the deceased soldier was a talented and experienced machine gunner. Should he have used different adjectives for the musical and the military professions?

    Lieutenant Colonel Jim Taylor MBE, Commanding Officer Second Fusiliers, described Rigby as “an experienced and talented side drummer and machine gunner, he was a true warrior and served with distinction in Afghanistan, Germany and Cyprus.”

  105. “Ignore the bit after the ranting madman and the comments on the pages but look at this, no blood on his hands”

    Look at the other red objects in the picture, the red lines on the road and the triangle on the road sign behind him, neither are the right colour. The red lines look pink and the triangle barely shows up at all. The blood isn’t very obvious because the colour balance of the device used to record the scene is incorrect. It isn’t registering the reds very well. that’s all. No conspiracy, no false flag, nothing, just a defective camera sensor.

  106. I wonder how much of the pro-corporate media support that we see here is motivated by the simple fact that people like their newspapers? I remember the luxury of physical newspapers, printed in (the cheapest possible) ink on (an excuse for) paper. Having had considerable experience with illegal drugs, I can state that newspapers are addictive in a very similar way; the regular user craves, not the substance of addiction, but the feelings that the substance evokes.

    No matter the name on the rag, the corporate media is a one-trick pony – it makes the consumer feel morally superior. It matters not to what or whom; the reader is tricked into feeling superior to certain politicians, certain criminals, carefully selected celebrities, people of other religions or of no religion – whatever; the apparent target is irrelevant, because the real target is the reader’s thoughts and feelings, which are being rendered addicted, and vulnerable to further manipulation: “You are an informed person (so long as you continue to buy, read, consume). We show you the depravity of them (take comfort in the righteousness of us)”.

    Just as an addict will defend from criticism both the drug and the people who supply it, so too addicts of the corporate media. Who are you to argue against something that makes me feel better about myself? I object to your campaign against my paper, which daily reassures me that most evil is external to myself, and to the nations and societies I’m embedded within. Life is good, so shut up!

    An old friend of mine was an old-school copper, your stereotypical racist, sexist low-order Mason (really, he was!). He was a brilliant bloke; clever, industrious, generous, with a strong sense of fairness and right and wrong, which was utterly at odds with his prejudice when discussing “current affairs” and other output from the media. He treated people fairly in real life, but unquestioningly accepted unfair and untrue prejudice about people he’d never met, so long as he’d read it in the paper.

    He was a Daily Mail reader, and he often complained about his high blood pressure. I occasionally advised him to cancel his paper because it was written in a manner deliberately contrived to raise its readers’ blood pressure, but he never failed to slog through it, getting outraged about this and that, but especially about them.

  107. “Ignore the bit after the ranting madman and the comments on the pages but look at this, no blood on his hands”

    There was clearly blood on his hands. His hands were covered in it. But both their clothes (and the other guy had a beige coat on) had singularly little blood for two guys who had purportedly just cut someone’s carotid arteries. Their coats should have been plastered with it! It is odd.

    Anyway, apparently they didn’t behead him. So that explains that?

  108. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 2:18 pm

    RD.
    “…..conflicts are not always about a numbers game………”
    You put words in my mouth.

    I’ve been frustrated that none of you are willing to give a simple answer to a simple question and I’m beginning to get angry now. You wouldn’t want me to get angry. Last time that happened was in Home Economics and Catriona Eusliss-Fekker fainted and there’s still cake-mix on the ceiling of 4b. Miss Trunchball made me stand at the far end of the hockey field all afternoon to cool off and I scorched all the grass.

    Please give an answer in numerals this time.

    1. Dead at the hands of Muslim terrorists.
    Insert numeral here _____

    2. Dead at the hands of fighters of Muslim Terrorists.
    Insert numeral here_____

    And Dreoilin and April. Will you ever stop squabbling and get back to your usual useful selves or I’ll have to come and sort you both out too! Don’t we know what April was driving at, and yes I’d vote a few more inverted commas her way so I don’t have to overheat my brain changing the voices.

  109. Catriona Eusliss-Fekker

    24 May, 2013 - 2:35 pm

    That’s a lie. I was just hiding under my desk.

    RD, Mr Hubblekoop and Kempe. Please just give her a proper answer and make it stop.

    1.____

    2.____

  110. a bit off topic, or maybe even related.
    Is this elimination of witnesses?
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/2-fbi-agents-involved-in-dzhokhar-tsarnaevs-arrest-fall-out-of-helicopter-and-die.html

  111. “But both their clothes (and the other guy had a beige coat on) had singularly little blood for two guys who had purportedly just cut someone’s carotid arteries.”

    Well if the poor devil was already dead and his heart no longer pumping there wouldn’t be.

  112. During the May month of our war in Afghanistan a soldier who served in Helmand as a machine gunner was killed on the streets of London, by two disturbed crack ( is this true) users, using knifes and meat cleavers of sorts.

    Its tough in a war, but to be expected and there is more to come with our increasing meddling in others affairs.

    This action was designed to hit the public perception, like being thrown into a cold pool after the sauna, but such random acts of calculated violence will not deter people from their normal life’s. Still, those in power are frightened that it will make people think more about the realities of our Foreign policy and engagements abroad and question it. Some might take up other actions, large scale civil disobedience that might be construed and reported as terrorism of sorts.

    Should Syria be actively engaged, Iraq could easily erupt into full blown civil war, not to speak of Iran’s clammy situation visa vie Bahrain’s Shia’s and the amassed military might surrounding it, all of them fodder to the arms dealers pulling the strings.

    These two calculated men murdered a soldier, not any civilian as they appeared in front of them, they could discriminate and differentiate in their actions and hence are not mad.

    They did not run away, but favoured engaging the police, they wanted to be held accountable for their distinct action.

    Whatever it turns out to be, its propaganda value is being milked for all its worth. If it was staged, whatever will they come up next with to sell papers?
    ‘Murderous zombie escaping Westminster croft kills lollypop lady’?

    Off the bickering topic…..

    A rainbow coalition deciding and voting on issue by issue have voted in a Labour leader to Norfolk county council. Never in the history of the Tory’s on NCC have they ever had more exercise. In trying to stifle everything and anything they have to indicate their desire to have a recorded vote, by standing up, which they duly did all morning long.
    They also decided to look at forms of committee systems and to ditch the cabinet system in a years time.

  113. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 2:53 pm

    The sky has not fallen but it will soon be tanks at Heathrow, again, in Blunkett style.

    One aircraft to Oslo with 75 onboard returns to Heathrow with an engine fire and the cowling missing on the other. A bird strike we hear. It flew back to Heathrow from the Essex direction over London??? Can that be right?

    Then a Pakistan Airways plane with >300 on board incoming to Manchester has just been diverted to Stansted due to a security alert received at Manchester. It has landed safely and is parked away from the terminal buildings.

    Situation Jumpy.

    PS I have not asked for style lessons nor need any additional ones from the resident troll. I will continue in my own fashion so tough.

  114. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 3:00 pm

    PS The style thing is a total irrelevance in the scheme of the terrible things that are going on around us. And I didn’t start it! I resent the resident troll being fed too.

    PPS Two men from the Pakistan flight have been arrested.

  115. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 3:17 pm

    April.

    You are quite right, “The style thing is a total irrelevance in the scheme of the terrible things that are going on around us.”

    I’m sorry if you feel I’m feeding the resident troll. I just can’t resist. The narrative that he peddles and the frequent nastiness of his style invites ridicule. I know much of his venom is directed at you personally. That must be truly unpleasant for you.

    Please scroll past my posts if they distract you at all from the job you do so well.

    I don’t think you have anything to gain by engaging with him. I would agree that that only feeds his habit but I also feel he should be challenged to explain himself. How to square the circle? It beats me.

    Please regard my interventions as a rather oblique encouragement to yourself and all those others who truly contribute on this blog.

  116. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 3:31 pm

    April Showers

    I don’t really care about your style but I do have something of a problem with you trying to enlist Dennis Potter to your cause. I am pretty certain that someone who said this about religion:

    BRAGG : You said earlier that it wasn’t to do with believing that life was eternal, but have you any feeling from the position you’re in, that it might be? You’ve said that you’ve never quite thrown off the idea of believing in God, and it features in a lot of your work.

    POTTER : Well, I don’t know. God’s a rumor, if you like. Christianity or indeed any other religion that is a religion because of fear of death or hope that there is something beyond death does not interest me. What kind of cruel old bugger is God if it’s terror that is the ruling edifice, the structure of religion? And too often, for too many people, it is. Now that to me isn’t religion.

    Religion has always been — I’ve said it before, but it doesn’t matter, I won’t get many more chances to repeat myself — thank God, religion to me has always been the wound, not the bandage. I don’t see the point of not acknowledging the pain and the misery and the grief of the world, and if you say, “Ah, but God understands” or through that you come to a greater appreciation, I then think, “That’s not God, that’s not my God, that’s not how I see God.”

    I see God in us or with us, if I see God at all, as shreds and particles and rumors, some knowledge that we have, some feeling why we sing and dance and act, why we paint, why we love, why make art.

    All the things that separate us from the purely animal in us are palpably there, and you can call them what you like, and you can theologize about them, and you can build great structures of belief about them. The fact is they are there and I have no means of knowing whether that thereness in some sense doesn’t cling to what I call me.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/12/arts/dennis-potter-s-last-interview-on-nowness-and-his-work.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    or who was quoted as saying the following:

    “I believe everybody is responsible for what they do themselves.”

    http://www.searchquotes.com/quotation/I_believe_everybody_is_responsible_for_what_they_do_themselves./163688/

    Would have a rather different perspective on what happened In Woolwich than you and the other warped apologists. You owe an apology to Dennis Potter, Lee Rigby and their relatives.

  117. A young man was murdered in the most brutal fashion and I believe that he was murdered to further a political agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam or the stated motives of the killers.

    Why do you have a problem with me holding this view?

    Hold any view you want – that’s your privilege. But I think to draw the conclusion your view requires – that a serving soldier was intentionally murdered by fake terrorists working for The Establishment (or whoever) who were then shot by the same Establishment(or whoever) after a public clusterfuck, is a portrait of unreality too far. And that’s my view. Problem?

    Certainly it feeds the WoT agenda. It is likely to further reduce civil liberties in its wake. Which is exactly what any terrorist is aiming for. But the Establishment has no need to create incidents: they’ll happen naturally. And the Establishment will obligingly widen the panic that the terrorist hopes to spread. Occam’s Razor applies here somewhere.

    Ideally, this would have got no more specialised attention than any other spectacularly ugly crime, and been dealt with accordingly, by the criminal law. The terrorists (whoever they are) won some time ago, when Western governments agreed to put their activities into a special category (under which almost any serious crime may be prosecuted on the say-so of intelligence agencies and the police). Much better to prosecut ‘terrorist crimes’ under the perfectly adequate common law, which is based on open procedures and defined penalties, and to deny the terrorists a status distinct from other murderers, money launderers and preachers of internecine hatred.

  118. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 3:53 pm

    Hi RD.

    It’s clear to me now that nneither you or the other resident trolls will answer my question. Not even with simple numerals. I can only conclude that you know there is no way to interpret those figures that could possibly fit with the false narratives that you peddle.

    Now you are off about God and talking to Mary as if she, and other contributers here are “…warped apologists…” for whatever happened in Woolwich. WTF?

    Can you give just one example of April, or any any other contributer here for that matter, posting anything that seeks to justify rather than understand and find rational causes for that event?

    If you think that trying to understand an incident and examine the inconsistencies in the information being released through the official channels, makes a person an apologist for the attack, then you are even more willfully deluded than I thought.

    Why am I even bothering to write this to someone who puts faith in their leaders’ (most of them proven serial liars) stories before common sense?

  119. ‘In fact if it wasn’t for the hanging around and the interview we wouldn’t even “know” they were “Muslim terrorists” would we? They could have just been some drug crazed scumbags. So, in fact, the hanging around works in favour of this being a staged event.’

    Or in favour of said scumbags wanting it to be known why they did it. Before giving themselves the best possible chance of being shot by the police, in the best tradition of deluded wannabe martyrs. Terrorism is nothing without publicity.

    Otherwise, they’d have just been some drug-crazed scumbags, and would have spent the next couple of decades locked up.

    Still, 9/11 was personally ordered by George Bush and WW2 was started by George Formby on behalf of the Rothschilds. Sure.

  120. More likely that evil Dick Cheney, Komodo. And most likely not ordered, but allowed to happen.

  121. That old argument about explain versus justify. I’m sick of it.

    EXPLAINING SOMETHING IS NOT THE SAME AS JUSTIFYING IT.

  122. Condolences to the family of the victim of this brutal murderous attack. Nobody should have to go through a tragedy like this, yet tragically these things do happen occasionally. A few years ago in Canada, in an equally horrible attack, a man was beheaded on a greyhound bus by a fellow passenger whom he did not know. In the end the attacker in Canada turned out to be mentally insane. No matter what reasons the alleged murderers might proffer to explain this murder in London it seems to me that, like the one in Canada, this attack was not rational. Rational people don’t remain at a murder scene, with their hands covered in blood, waving a cleaver, and attempting to justify the crime. I would have to wonder whether the perpetrators of this evil, and any associates, were sane at the time.

  123. “If you think that trying to understand an incident and examine the inconsistencies in the information being released through the official channels, makes a person an apologist for the attack, then you are even more willfully deluded than I thought.”

    Bang on, Sofia.

  124. Currently on the streets of Stockholm, Europe has failed yet again.

    Europeans drive migrants to despair in Sweden -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22650267

    Swedish people fail to assimilate with muslims migrants -
    http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/multiculturalism-blamed-for-violent-muslim-riots/

  125. My money’s on Silverstein and his special thermite paint, Dreoilin….but let’s not go there. Cheney is evil incarnate, agreed.

    Nevermind: two disturbed crack ( is this true) users,

    Probably not. It was in the Daily Mail and the Sun. But it was also reported by the BBC this morning. Neighbours of Adebolajo referred to the company he kept. Which wasn’t good company.

  126. If this is a tragic murder of Lee Rigby by the suspects I apologise for posting the link below. There is something not quite right about what happened, or the reactions of people at the scene. I am not saying I agree with the Global Research analysis, but there have been many false flags throughout history and what happened is convenient to the government line. Blandly accepting what the media tells us is a trap we must not let ourselves fall into. We must be vigilant.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/woolrich-london-killing-terrorism-or-false-flag/5336203

  127. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 4:24 pm

    Sofia

    Even if I answered your questions – which I have already explained why they are of little relevance, I don’t think it would make a blind bit of difference and you would just continue in troll rather than listening mode. If you really want to see what I and a few others see as apologies and invalid excuses/reasons for the attack then you will find them if you bother to try and understand this matter from a perspective other than your own – and yes I can understand many peoples anger against the policies and actions of western Governments, it is just that I don’t share there view that such anger is in all cases sufficient justification/excuse/reason for any action which they may chose. Man is not a wild animal and is blessed with the ability to control its emotions.

    By all means talk about the general situation in the Middle East – but this thread is about a particular man who has been killed, and would be better employed with thinking about breaking the cycle of violence, rather than continuing the old game of a blames b and b blames a and the using God a or b for justification. Which is perhpas why the Dennis Potter quotes I provide are of such relevance.

    More than happy to talk if anyone has anything different to say or is prepared to look at new perspectives and be a little creative – but my guess is that this thread has shed all the light it can on this subject and is now just adding to mental global warming.

  128. More of the usual bollocks from CM of the extremist far-liberal-left attempting to justify the genocidal destruction of the English people and their culture. Brilliantly dissected here by Colin Liddell.

  129. The If you look down the wrong end of the telescope at Woolwich incident what do you see?
    1/ A very well articulated justification of Islamic revenge against UK foreign policy but
    2/ completely out of context in the current withdrawal of UK forces from Afghanistan and our covert involvement in Libya and Syria’s Arab Springs.

    The double-game of Zionist Western and political Islam players in the Arab spring has led us revert/converts to take a very long, hard look at the so-called radical clericals that used to tempt us with whisperings of Jihad in Afghanistan etc. The convolutions of current Islamic jihad politics look more like this:
    http://www.theage.com.au/executive-style/strive/qa-with-yoga-expert-duncan-peak-20130503-2ixb2.html
    and the Cameron government is part of the game.
    A Nigerian Muslim should be streets ahead of myself in understanding the spaghetti bolognese of events in Syria. To me it’s like trying to eat the halal spaghetti without the non-halal mince/cheema.

    Let us assume that these guys were being directed full-on both by Muslim clerics and Government bandits working together. The purpose of the event is therefore to divert our attention from the contradictions of Al Qaida and Obama/Cameron and Russia and China and Europe and Saudi and Qatar working together to install a Muslim Brotherhood ( Israeli ) version of Islam in Syria under our noses.

    The political Macchiavellian team have selected a pair who are happy and well rehearsed in the rhetoric of the war on terror, while the game has long been exposed as a fraud. Boston tried to get people thinking about the red herring of Russia and Chechnya. This tries to get us thinking about the red herring of
    Pakistan, Syria and Iraq.

    What is happening in Syria at this moment is different. This war is being led by ultra Orthodox Jews, Christians and Muslims to Roman Catholicise and suppress religious freedom and subjugate us to the New World Order pact. This is an end game for Zionism because it can only obtain recognition as the “Pope” of the new world order when it is partnership with and in the reflected glory and truth of Islam.

    As Mark Golding stated yesterday, all this gives more power to the madmen in charge. It is in their interests to focus the public’s mind on the moral inconsistencies of the war on terror, in order to lure us grain by grain into the snare of their insane plan for us.

  130. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 4:30 pm

    Sofia

    You have perhaps been taught that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction – may I introduce you to your reaction he is called CanSpeccy.

  131. Canspeccy

    U can go back to kip.

  132. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    24 May, 2013 - 4:41 pm

    John Goss; Not buying into false-flags at this point, but I do want to know what your Security Services knew.

    The unavailability of guns and explosives in the UK could have been the reason such weapons were chosen as the only option.

    But I do find it strange that this mimics the horrendous video-captured carnage in Syria .

  133. April Showers, 2:53 pm:

    “It flew back to Heathrow from the Essex direction over London??? Can that be right?”

    I live near Writtle near Chelmsford, Essex, and I’m nearly under one of the approach routes for passenger jets. I can watch them arrive from assorted directions, and assemble themselves into a regular stream descending across London. I think they use different routes on different days, because some days there are lots of planes, and on other days, none.

  134. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 4:43 pm

    Thanks for your concern but I did not mean you Sofia. I was addressing someone else here whose comments were seized on by your ‘Dad’ to have little dig at me.

    RD I do not have a ’cause’ other than for truth and justice. What was the point in raising Dennis Potter’s views on religion? The message in his play ‘Blue Remembered Hills’ was that there is innate cruelty in all of us especially when we are in a group.

    We had a rather useless physics teacher and I can’t remember what it was that someone said that made her cry. I still feel shame that I, as a fourteen year old, went along with the class and did not speak up for her.

  135. Might have guessed that Alfred/Albert aka Canspeccy would turn up with his bile.

  136. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 4:50 pm

    Clark Would it have been Braintree that was mentioned? I can’t remember now. The flight went towards Slough, then Watford and then eastwards before returning. Both news station used the small graphic here produced by Flight Stats.

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/67795000/jpg/_67795453_heathrow_bird_fire_flightpath_624.jpg

  137. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 4:59 pm

    Clark That was Flight Aware not Flight Stats.

    This is a larger version on Sky News.
    http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/5/24/239461/default/v1/flight-path-for-online-1-522×293.jpg

    ~~

    I was just thinking what terrible jobs paramedics, police, mnortuary staff and pathologists have to do. Apparently the cause of death cannot yet be confirmed for the dead soldier.

    Distressing too to see and hear his bereaved wife and relatives. I hope that it was their wish to go through the experience of a press conference two days after the awful event and not anyone else’s.

  138. They wouldn’t have done this if it weren’t for our foreign policy – this has to be a fact. That said though, ultimately you have to take responsibility for your own actions. They are a pair of lunatics and deserve all that’s coming to them. The earlier comment about the machete was crass.

    I have a real problem with the word ‘Heroes’. This is not to demean the job that soldiers do, or what their families go through, but they are not heroes to me, just pawns in the Bush/Blair game.

    Though they acted in the name of Islam, I believe, I don’t believe that they can in any way be representative of the Muslim community. I do believe however that the same community needs to do more to out these young extremists. Leaders need to stand up more often.

  139. Clark
    Planes use the wind direction at the runway as a reason for changing their flightpaths. But you knew that anyway. Like politicians, if they get a little opposition it gives them more lift.

  140. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    24 May, 2013 - 5:12 pm

    ” I do believe however that the same community needs to do more to out these young extremists. Leaders need to stand up more often.”

    They do, but they have a hard time getting good publicity from our MEdia friends.

    http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/Terrorism-Broader-Middle-East/Buncombe-Andrew/Muslim-seminary-issues-fatwa-against-terrorism

    http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/05/muslims_do_speak_out_against_terror.html

  141. If you get as far as taking direct action, in my opinion you have allowed yourself to be a pawn/patsy, take your pick. If you want to change the world you have to win others over to your opinion or join the umbrella of others.

    There is exactly the same slack attitude in Islam circles as there is in the UK army which April Showers described earlier. At low ranking levels you are not considered to be responsible for your actions if you are carrying out orders. So you have to be 100% confident in your leaders that they are competent, knowledgeable, trustworthy and do not spy, lie or bear false witness. Most fail the test.

    Islam places full responsibility on the individual for all their actions. If they put their shoulder to a cause they get the full reward or punishment for that result. So they have to think pretty carefully which side their going to back.

    Some people on R4 this morning described soldiers as serving their country. WTF? Stopping the truth of Islam from spreading is really useful, isn’t it?

  142. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 5:22 pm

    RD.

    Sidestepping the question again. Give me strength!

    Wouldn’t knowing the extent of the violence inflicted by both parties be important in providing a context within which these terrible events are taking place.

    I beleive you and your pathetic conformity-enforcers don’t answer because you know that to put down the relative numbers being slaughtered would give the lie to all the fairy-tales you expect people to swallow.

    How in hell can we break the cycleof violence when we screw our eyes up tight to the reality of the carnage being done for so long in our names and with our tax revenues. These would surely be better spent within our own communities?

    As regards the consistent patronising, self-righteous and intellectually superior tone that drips from your posts. Well excuse me while I throw up.

    I know you are likely not firing the guns or missiles yourself, but by seeking to justify the slaughter called the “War on Terror” you surely have some of the lakes of blood on your hands.

  143. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 5:25 pm

    April Showers

    Don’t you think that in Blue Remembered Hills that Potter wasn’t also making the point as to how religous beliefs are used as support for the inate cruelty? I agree that there is inate cruelty in ALL of us – but perhaps you need to recognise that it isn’t just limited to one side of a particular argument and that it doesn’t always come from the same quarter.

    I think you will find that many here have had a particular moment when they realised the importance of pursuing what they see as “truth and justice” – mine came when my Dad got lost when driving through Glasgow and I saw the conditions that other kids lived in the now demolished Gorbals – so please don’t assume that your version of “truth and justice” is the only one in existence.

  144. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 5:32 pm

    Sofia

    Yep and I beat my wife and kids too – talk about a straw man.

    As for the “the consistent patronising, self-righteous and intellectually superior tone that drips from your posts. Well excuse me while I throw up.” – just think about it

  145. ‘So two men just murder a soldier, hang around to be arrested and that doesn’t seem a little odd to you.’

    It’s seems odd to most ‘reasonable’ people, but perhaps these guys were anticipating gettin’ shat by de feds (a la Mark Duggan), and thereafter enjoying their ration of 72 virgins for the rest of eternity ?

  146. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 5:34 pm

    @Guano

    “Let us assume that these guys were being directed full-on both by Muslim clerics and Government bandits working together.”

    As they say garbage in, guano out.

  147. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 5:42 pm

    @ Scourge :

    “If someone burgles a house it is usually to steal items to sell, perhaps to feed a drug habit, perhaps to pay off debts or just to supplement a low income.”
    ———

    Yes, thank you for that insight.

    You may however (just about) recall that you wrote that there were “reasons” – and then, “main reasons” why the killing took place and you gave pne “main reason”.

    You may also (just about) recall that I asked you what the other “reasons”/”main reasons” were.

    I’m now again inviting you to inform us all.

    Off you go, laddy!

  148. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 5:50 pm

    The Scourge ‘fesses up to Fedup :

    “I was under the influence of liquid refreshments when I read his original comment.”

    Not for the first time, I should say :)

    Souces : Scourge posts passim.

  149. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 5:56 pm

    MDJones briongs put his trump card :

    “So two men just murder a soldier, hang around to be arrested and that doesn’t seem a little odd to you”
    ————

    To which I would say : no odder than someone wearing a suicide belt blowing himself up together with his victims.

  150. “Once more unto the Breach.”

    Hurrah Hurrah Prince Harry s going to wah,
    To win back home a medal from his Pa
    Our feudal relic s off to kill
    Those Afghan chappies-such a thrill.
    And will he wear his Nazi gear?
    Oh will he ever never fear.
    What a hero in a chopper
    Happy as a sales day shopper
    Picking victims just like sweaters
    He will show them we’re their betters.
    Tickerty boo and don’t yer know
    Burning babies give quite a glow
    When Hellfire missiles strike their home
    For they’ve not got an iron dome!
    Infanticide and Genocide
    What fun that Hell is on our side!
    Hurrah Hurrah Prince Harry s going to wah
    To bring back home more booty for Papa.

    C.I.A. estimates of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth – 2/3 Trillion dollars. Alan Greenspan on Iraq “It is regrettable that it is not politically expedient to state that the Iraq war is about oil” We murder millions for money,strange that anyone might object? The stench of hypocrisy is overwhelming and my most sincere condolences to the family of Lee Rigby,another of the bliar’s victims.As to our so called judges, to Nuremberg with the lot of them. Media Lens speaks more sense than others.

  151. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 6:04 pm

    Dreoilin to April Showers, she of the thin skin :

    “I’ve been intending to say that to you for months. Habbabkuk simply served as a reminder”
    ———–

    My friends having checked, I do believe that Dreoilin did already say exactly that to the then Mary several months ago.

    Mary must be getting a little forgetful, poor dear. Or perhaps she just won’t take well-meaning advice.

  152. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 6:13 pm

    “Its tough in a war, but to be expected and there is more to come with our increasing meddling in others affairs.”

    From the tone of that, one could almost get the impression that Nevermind (for it was he) is looking forward to it.

    I’d of course be happy to hear Nevermind assure us that I’m wrong and that he’s not.

  153. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 6:16 pm

    RD.

    Yeah. I just thought about it.

    If I came over as patronising, self-righteous and intellectually superior then you have my apology. What I was trying to express was anger.

    Anger at a state which dresses up a habit of conquest and plunder in fine words of democracy and humanitarian intervention.

    Anger at a state that sees nothing wrong with putting up a statue to Bomber Harris, a self proclaimed, industrial scale terrorist.

    And anger at henchmen like yourself who swallow everything the state tells you as inevitably correct (despite numerous examples of the opposite being the norm), who seek to derail genuine attempts to understand what is really going on and who even bring their wife and kids into our argument.

    What is there not to be angry about in all that?

    Resident Dissident, you are way way beyond contempt.

  154. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 6:20 pm

    The Old Biddy snorts :

    “PS I have not asked for style lessons nor need any additional ones from the resident troll. I will continue in my own fashion so tough.”
    ——–

    So there (stamps her little foot)!

    You may not have asked for style lessons, but you certainly need to take some.

    But by all means carry on, making it difficult to spot what is you and what is quotation : makes it easier for you to deny you said something, doesn’t it.

  155. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 6:21 pm

    “But I think to draw the conclusion your view requires – that a serving soldier was intentionally murdered by fake terrorists working for The Establishment (or whoever) who were then shot by the same Establishment(or whoever) after a public clusterfuck, is a portrait of unreality too far. And that’s my view. Problem?”

    I don’t get how you can work so much into what I have said. All I have done is highlight some weird stuff and anomalies that anyone can check and you keep harking on about me promoting a ‘conspiracy theory’, as if ridiculing salient talking points without contributing is somehow a good thing. If you can explain some of the anomalies and deliberate mis-reporting then please do so.

  156. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 6:33 pm

    @ Komodo :

    I have enjoyed several of your posts recently (be careful – you will be expelled from the Egregiousness of Eminences of you carry on like that), but O must take issue with you when you say :

    “Still, 9/11 was personally ordered by George Bush and WW2 was started by George Formby on behalf of the Rothschilds. Sure.”

    As any fule no, George Formby was the Crimean War. WW2 was started by Gracie Fields and Vera Lynn (the mistress of Amschel Rothschild, deceased), working in conjunction with an unemployed artist who was being blackmailed by Mossad (founded 1950).

    Hope that helps, and please get your facts right in future!

  157. This speculation that there is something ‘odd’ about the killing, that it was staged, simply serves to discredit the cause of those who challenge official narratives.

    Take the claim that there isn’t much blood in evidence. What is that supposed to mean? That the guy isn’t really dead? That he is acting and the two assailants are only pretending to hack at him with the knife and cleaver? What about when they mounted the pavement in the car and ran him over? Was that staged? Where is he now? Pretending to be dead in a morgue? Did the police fire blanks? Are the hospital staff and soldiers from Woolwich barracks in on the plot? If the Shadowy Cabal were able to choreograph such an extravagant production, why couldn’t they order a couple of extra pints of stage blood? This is nuts. The perp talking to camera was wearing a black jacket and the lighting wasn’t good. There was no way of telling how much blood was on it.

  158. No, the sky has not fallen and yes, there are lunatics who would strangle the bystander on the proverbial Clapham bus.

    However, the information available to date would suggest, firstly, that these men were not mentally ill, but were likely to have seen themselves as ideologically-driven political soldiers in pursuit of what they view as Jihad. It may well be that they are as sane as, say, Anders Breivik.

    All kinds of shenanigans occur, of course, and over the years the secret state has got up to all of these. But it seems to me that the reflexive tendency of some of those who post here – and sadly, that of certain sections of the Left in general – is to attempt to minimise, to not see the elephant in the sitting-room, to engage in ever-more complex apologetics and denial. This is not doing people who happen to be Muslim in Britain any favours, in my opinion.

    What we need is a firm and united Left-wing activist commitment to vigorously and systemically combat all forms of Far Right activity in this country – and that must include the totalitarian ideology that is Islamism. I am not talking about allegedly compromised NGOs like ‘Prevent’ of the ‘Quilliam Foundation’, I am talking about those who believe in economic justice re-building organisational links with people and structures within the Muslim communities in a manner akin to, say, ‘Rock Against Racism’ (?’Rock Against Islamism’, anyone?) and what used to be the trade unions, updated versions of the various workers’ associations and so on, and advocating unity on economic, not religious or ‘racial’ grounds. Muslims need to smash Islamism from within – a la Woody Guthrie’s famous guitar.

    What we see today is the outcome of 35 years of hard work, propaganda and grasroots activism on the part of Islamists, backed by enormous amounts – trillions – of Saudi/UAE money. Now, when we see the same sorts of crimes being committed in, say, Syria/Libya by (USA/UK-supported in their usual tactical alliance with these Far Right paramilitary death squad) Islamists and then the same machete horror on the streets of London, ought we not see the obvious link? It will be very difficult, but at least we can try to stop this Far Right ideology from having free rein over our youngsters. First step: Cut off all Saudi/UAE funding to all community/religious groups and ban Islamist preachers from entering the UK. Of course, the former will not happen, because of the strategic alliance b/w the UK and Saudi Arabia/UAE and the periodic tactical geopolitical alliances b/w the UK and the Saudi/UAE-sponsored Islamist storm-troopers.

  159. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 7:01 pm

    Mod. ‘Habbabkuk’ needs reining in. I do not like being referred to as ‘The Old Biddy’ the latest appellation for me. He seems to have acquired some extra cockiness and others too are being addressed rudely and having their posts trashed. Why is he tolerated? I often think about those who come here to read the blog and what they must think. He contributes nothing of course.

  160. You’re not supposed to talk about links between this attack and what’s going on with British foreign policy.

    So says Boris Johnson and many other of our leaders and opinion formers.

    These were simply bad men doing bad stuff, as happens any day of the week down south London way.

    This bloke thinks differently:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-british-foreign-policy-role

  161. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 7:12 pm

    Did anyone know that UK drone testing, including that for the new Watchkeeper, is being carried out at a small private airport at Aberporth, Wales? I did not.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/06/welsh-airfield-drones

    I learnt this from listening to Uma Sims of the Cardiff PSC being interviewed by a BBC local radio presenter called Jason Mohammad.

    12.34 minutes into the programme.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01sjnhp/Jason_Mohammad_24_05_2013/

    He should be ashamed. His father’s countrymen and women and their children are being shredded by the Hellfire missiles sent down from these machines used for very evil purposes. They do of course have peaceful uses like aerial surveys of forests to detect tree disease.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Mohammad

    Anyway well done to Uma Sims for holding her ground throughout and for not allowing him to use the Woolwich murder as anti Muslim propaganda.

    We also learnt that the MOD cooperate with Israel in this testing.

    Mr Ray Mann who owns the ex WW11 airfield is a big ideas man.

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-11/05/drones-wales

    http://conferences.theiet.org/uav/programme/index.cfm

  162. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 7:49 pm

    “Mod. ‘Habbabkuk’ needs reining in. I do not like being referred to as ‘The Old Biddy’ the latest appellation for me. He seems to have acquired some extra cockiness and others too are being addressed rudely and having their posts trashed. Why is he tolerated? I often think about those who come here to read the blog and what they must think. He contributes nothing of course.”
    ————–

    Well, some posts do get a reaction from you, don’t they. What a pity you don’t ever react to legitimate questions arising out of your posts.

    Anyway, I shan’t get into a long discussion with you – as you once wrote, you don’t get into discussions.

    Just a couple of points though : all made before (some also by others, by the way)but I live in hope that you might one day take some of them on board.

    1/. You may think otherwise, but this is not your blog. You and I are both guests and you have no special status. And if you put up (which you do several times a day) then you have to put up with it as well;

    2/. If a post is robust enough, it will resist any amount of what you call “trashing”;

    3/. “The Old Biddy” suits you very well – you are old(ish) and you are always clucking away. If you had any sense of proportion or self-awareness you would understand that this is nothing compared to the dirt you dish out all day long, whether to figures in the public sphere or to those who dare to question you on this blog. Not to mention the sly insinuations about people’s marital status, Jewishness and so on and labelling people as trolls;

    4/. as far as public perceptions of this blog are concerned, I’m sure it will survive me. After all, it has survived you and you’ve been around rather longer than I have.

    PS – I shall not threaten to leave this blog unless you are banned.

  163. I wonder what the PIA ‘plane event over Manchester/Stansted will turn out to be. ‘Simple’ criminality, two men getting aggressive on a ‘plane, or more of the same Jihadist activity? Let’s wait and see.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/may/24/pakistan-aircraft-stansted-video

  164. English Knight

    24 May, 2013 - 8:09 pm

    April Showers re Habba “He contributes nothing of course.” Yes, but better to have a Madoff’s wife (typically lamenting to Judge Chin “I am having to pay for my husbands security out of my own funds” and was laughed out of court!!) in-house then go looking for one in the sayanims corner at HuffPo?!

  165. In relation to Craig’s comment about “theatrical violence”, of course that very much is the aim. Jihadism/Islamism is a thoroughly postmodern ideology, obsessed with the spectacle as propaganda instrument. If one thinks of all those atrocities commited by Jihadists in Syria that are on youtube/Twitter. etc. deliberately for maximal dissemination, it’s the same phenomenon. Indeed, it seems to draw hugely on Hollywood imagery of violent death, horror, etc. – think of the ‘Texas Chainsaw Massacre’ genre and the ‘Silence of the Lambs’, ‘The Walking Dead’ and so on. It is illustrative of those who lack imagination wrt both ideology and imagery. Plagiarism is all they can achieve. Islamism: A dead end.

  166. doug scorgie

    24 May, 2013 - 8:16 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    24 May, 2013 – 5:42 pm

    Says to me:

    “Yes, thank you for that insight.”

    “You may however (just about) recall that you wrote that there were “reasons” – and then, “main reasons” why the killing took place and you gave pne “main reason”.”

    “You may also (just about) recall that I asked you what the other “reasons”/”main reasons” were.”

    Telling lies again HB.

    I never mentioned “other reasons” or” main reasons” even though you use quotation marks you merely made that up.

    What I said was:

    “There are no excuses for these actions but there are reasons, perhaps you don’t understand that.”

    Find at:

    doug scorgie
    23 May, 2013 – 8:18 pm

  167. Ok, so if this act was a response to our foreign policy, do we get something nice in return for our support of jihadists in Libya, Syria, etc.?

  168. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:50 pm

    I think the ‘blood’ angle is a red herring because there is clearly blood on the victim and on the ground in front of the car, however it is odd that there are no images which clearly show the blood in front of the car.

    The only image available showing the front of the car does not show any blood, this does not of course mean there is none, but due to lighting it appears there is none but you can just make out a slight sheen on the pavement. Also, in the video you can not see any blood, even though the area of pavement is clearly visible. Again, I say it’s a very convenient spot the attacker chose for his interview.

    There were dozens of people witnessing the event and many were filming it and yet there are still no additional pictures or videos, particularly of the pool of blood in front of the car taken from ground level.

    Also on youtube a video went up within hours claiming there was no blood etc. Seemed way too premature for that argument to be taking place, why were people not simply waiting for additional images before jumping to conclusion? (hint: because there are still none 3 days later?), maybe promoting the no-blood angle is all mis-direction.

  169. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:52 pm

    The Guardian Group have a new director. Their emphasis is on digital.

    O2′s Ronan Dunne joins GMG board

    Arif Durrani, 24 May 2013, 10:32am

    ‘Guardian Media Group has appointed Ronan Dunne, chief executive of Telefónica UK (O2), as a non-executive director as the publishing group continues to pursue its digital-first strategy, and one that is increasingly focused on the mobile space.

    Dunne has been leader of the telecoms giant since April 2008. Prior to this he was chief financial officer and head of finance, having joined O2 before its demerger from BT in 2001.

    He is also chairman of Tesco Mobile, the UK’s largest mobile virtual network operator, a joint venture between Tesco and O2. During his career, he has held senior financial positions in the banking and the corporate sectors.[..]

    Dunne said: “The media sector is changing, which presents enormous opportunity as the true potential of digital services and interaction becomes a reality.”

    Also joining Guardian Media Group as non-executive director is John Paton, chief executive of Digital First Media.

    Digital First Media, which operates Digital First Ventures, MediaNews Group and Journal Register Company, has print and online divisions across the US, Canada and Europe.

    Paton oversees the operation of more than 800 digital and print products in 18 states across the US, serving 61.5 million customers per month.’

    http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/News/MostEmailed/1183779/O2s-Ronan-Dunne-joins-GMG-board/

  170. April Showers @ 7:12 “Did anyone know that UK drone testing, including that for the new Watchkeeper, is being carried out at a small private airport at Aberporth, Wales? I did not.”

    Yes I did.
    I mentioned the drones here.
    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/03/nuclear-nightmare/comment-page-8/#comment-402028

  171. “‘Rock againt Islamism’, anyone?”

    Imagine trying to get that one off the ground at your average student union..

  172. “Ok, so if this act was a response to our foreign policy, do we get something nice in return for our support of jihadists in Libya, Syria, etc.?” Giles.

    Unfortunately not. It’s a monster that bites everything around it, except Saudi Arabia /UAE (by mutual agreement, though their time will come too; right now, the Jihadists need them too much), including the hand that (stupidly) feeds it. The UK’s foreign policy is of relevance – eg. supporting Jihadism where it suits our perceived geopolitical interests – but the ideology is opposed to anything that is not Islamist and it defines its area based on a puerile pseudo-historical fantasy.

  173. David Thomson

    24 May, 2013 - 9:39 pm

    The Metro’s first 7 pages were dedicated to this murder and the terrorist rhetoric whipped up around it. Buried in the later pages, in a two by two column was the story of a guy who had murdered 4 and attempted the murder of 3 more in various attacks, over a period of some time, using grenades and handguns. I never heard anything about these murders.

  174. Maybe someone has mentioned this already, but why did I automatically think of the heart-eating monster in Syria of last week when this barbaric event in Woolwich happened? Along with Saudi Arabia and Qatar, we created this in Syria, so why are we so appalled when we see it on our streets?

    As least the sicko who knifed Lee Rigby apologised to a woman. When it comes to drone strikes and Israeli target practice “we” commit uni-sex atrocities!

  175. Still stalking your victim here, maybe you would like to fess up as to who your last cyber victim was, Habby.

    Stop being such a prick and either participate, or fuck the hell off Havenocock. Simple choices for simple men.

    Sofia, please get him a broadband connection for his shed, he’s a bit over worked and can do with some extra cache.

    Habbakack for nonchalance, nonentity and mediocrity
    You must understand by now that you are our pet, so fess up chum.

  176. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 9:58 pm

    @ Scourge (20h16)

    Contrary to your denial, you did use the words “reasons” and “main reasons”. Here is what you wrote on the Yes Scotland meeting Edinburgh thread at 15h17 οn 23 May :

    “There are no excuses for what happened in Woolwich but, of you think carefully,there are reasons and one of the main reasons is British foreign policy”

    This establishes that you used the words “reasons” and “main reasons”.

    Why do you claim that you didn’t?

    PS – still waiting for your thoughts on what those “reasons” and “main reasons” might have been.

    Thank you.

  177. I didn’t see any of the News on Wednesday evening. I only read second hand accounts very late. and thought wtf.

    On Thursday morning, I saw what the media and politicians had done with it, and immediately felt so ill, that I literally threw up, something I haven’t done in years. Maybe the fish was a bit off, or maybe the guts of my soul had been hit by a massive psychological attack.

    I then tried to make some sense of it all, and tried to analyse myself, as well as other people’s analyses of what actually happened. Yet still, I do not know, apart from what is undeniably true.

    Whatever, the origins and causes of the event on Wednesday afternoon, the behaviour of the media and the politicians has been completely disgraceful. It was as if they were doing their utmost to incite racial violence on a mass scale.

    My wife went swimming in the morning, and met an elderly lady, for the first time, who just wanted someone to talk to. She asked my wife to give her a hug, as if to reconfirm to herself, that there were still some normal human beings left.

    This guy says it as well as anyone. I’ve come across him before. Very few people actually do this kind of thing. I can think of less than 10. He’s very good. A couple of years ago, when he started doing it, he worked out how to make himself from second hand odds and sods, a very cheap teleprompter. Some people don’t need them, but then when you find out their background, they have been a professional stand up comedian or whatever for years – and they can do it very effectively live and straight.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-OUbnFKyFM

    Tony

  178. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 10:11 pm

    I note with interest that Nevermind, despite rambling on for several lines, has not taken the opportunity to tell us that my impression that he’s rather looking forward to further events like Woolwich is completely unfounded.

    That’s rather revealing, isn’t it.

  179. “There was clearly blood on his hands. His hands were covered in it. But both their clothes (and the other guy had a beige coat on) had singularly little blood for two guys who had purportedly just cut someone’s carotid arteries. Their coats should have been plastered with it! It is odd.”

    Actually no. I’ve cut quite a few jugulars in my time and never got a bit of blood on my clothes, very little on my hands either. It doesn’t go squirting everywhere, just sort of gushes a bit.

  180. “I’ve cut quite a few jugulars in my time…” Fred.

    Unique pub chat-up line?

    I assume (I hope) you’re talking chickens or sheep? :)

  181. Those among us who were panicking about running out of gas in March.

    There never was a shortage.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/24/energy-suppliers-held-back-gas-uk

  182. “I assume (I hope) you’re talking chickens or sheep?”

    Sheep, goats, cattle, pigs…

  183. I didn’t see any of the News on Wednesday evening. I only read second hand accounts very late. and thought wtf.

    On Thursday morning, I saw what the media and politicians had done with it, and immediately felt so ill, that I literally threw up, something I haven’t done in years. Maybe the fish was a bit off, or maybe the guts of my soul had been hit by a massive psychological attack.

    I then tried to make some sense of it all, and tried to analyse myself, as well as other people’s analyses of what actually happened. Yet still, I do not know, apart from what is undeniably true.

    Whatever, the origins and causes of the event on Wednesday afternoon, the behaviour of the media and the politicians has been completely disgraceful. It was as if they were doing their utmost to incite racial violence on a mass scale.

    My wife went swimming in the morning, and met an elderly lady, for the first time, who just wanted someone to talk to. She asked my wife to give her a hug, as if to reconfirm to herself, that there were still some normal human beings left.

    This guy says it as well as anyone. I’ve come across him before. Very few people actually do this kind of thing. I can think of less than 10. He’s very good. A couple of years ago, when he started doing it, he worked out how to make himself from second hand odds and sods, a very cheap teleprompter. Some people don’t need them, but then when you find out their background, they have been a professional stand up comedian or whatever for years – and they can do it very effectively live and straight.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-OUbnFKyFM

    Tony

  184. BA Near Disaster

    24 May, 2013 - 10:31 pm

    April wrote:

    “One aircraft to Oslo with 75 onboard returns to Heathrow with an engine fire and the cowling missing on the other. A bird strike we hear. It flew back to Heathrow from the Essex direction over London??? Can that be right?”
    ===

    No it was no bird strike. BA multiple cock-ups.

    That BA Airbus spent 27 minutes in the air circling London. Arguments raging back and forward on pilot forums if that was correct thing to do in circumstances or if they should have gone down asap at Stansted rather than returning to Heathrow.

    There are a lot of people on that plane very luck to be alive. Looks like a massive ground engineering failure AND pilot pre-flight check-list failure AND possible pilot error in responding to problem – all of which combined means they were very lucky to survive.

    BA’s lawyers apparently on prowl. Probably why the news still mutters nonsense about bird strike.

  185. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    24 May, 2013 – 5:50 pm

    “The Scourge ‘fesses up to Fedup “

    Interesting use of N American slang

  186. Suhayl.

    I despair. Islam is full of politics. You sell your fellow Muslim who openly hates UK foreign policy to the UK state who you secretly hate also so that they will send you weapons in Syria. Thus the UK state gets rid of its public critics and also gets brownie points from Israel.

    Nobody’s suggesting that there’s a televised room in the palace of Westminster where all this goes on publicly. The Muslim revert gets a gentle wind-up by the friendly imam and watches his Middle-Eastern satellite news from Muslim countries. Job done.

    I don’t know why everyone in this country thinks that politics is about council offices and election days. In Islam it works like a hot air balloon. You introduce heat under the balloon and see where the wind of hatred takes you. It’s really no more than gambling. The skill is knowing where the major players are heading and riding the wind. Opportunism and analytical skill.

    On an individual level Muslims are manipulated all the time by so-called leaders. You either like your ideological scrotum tickled and get involved or you walk away. You need a wife and a job, so you have to use the small village mentality of sucking up to the top guy. People in this country do not seem to understand the backwardness of Muslim culture.

    I don’t suppose they are likely to be enlightened soon.

  187. Fred,

    That LBG story is bizarre. We knew it was there at the time. It wasn’t hidden – the totals were published daily. The LNG terminals were flowing when needed – again that data is available in real-time. Tankers were diverted to bring more in, the Langeled pipeline was fixed and the Bacton pipeline reversed before the situation went from scary to “that wasn’t supposed to happen”.

  188. “That LBG story”

    Erm LNG story!

  189. Sorry, since I have been banned, its like posting from Nigeria – sorry I mean Ghana – or wherever Craig posts from when it is really slow…

    I didn’t mean to post twice….

    My first attempt was via an American Free Internet spoofer thing – I don’t like using such websites even though they are free…I am me. My IP Address and My Comments are accepted on many much more active websites than this – and occasionally I get sent to the naughty boy’s place – and get banned – but most of them – even The Independent – let me back in…The Telegraph – well they are Just So Tolerant…I know what I am like….

    But they even let me post freely tonight – and didn’t delete a thing…

    I am just me FFS.

    I do not have any agenda or political allegiance – except to try and understand what the hell is going on before I die.

    Sorry for being boring….

    Maybe I was too fast – for you…

    Craig Come On…9/11..You must by now know..Or are You Brainwashed Or are You Still Working For The Globalist Elite…

    I Don’t Know..I am without Prejudice…

    I don’t do it. I don’t get paid.

    I take people as I find them…

    No one has hit me since I was a Child, and I have never hit anyone since I was a Child. I was 14 – and he was my Best Mate – and I did it Publicly in Front of The Whole Class and The Teacher..I Never Even Got Told Off.

    I sent him flying..They all looked at me.= in astonishment. Charley Doesn’t Do That. After they had patched him up…and he came back to class…everyone knew…He walks in, and my friend Stephen Briggs sits next to me. Everyone else shuffled up.

    We were at the back of the Class.

    Tony

  190. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:05 pm

    Off topic, but not completely.

    Just watched a movie called ‘Snitch’. It’s the story of an honest businessman whose son is entrapped by an old friend into accepting a mail shipment of Ecstasy. It was a set-up; the type of set-up staged by the Feds regularly. He is not a druggie, but he faces 10 years unless he agrees to frame another hapless US citizen. If he does like his ‘friend’ did and find some poor schmuck for the Feds to arrest, he gets a reduction in his sentence. The boy refuses to pass his friends baton onto someone else’s back, so his Dad agrees to do it. In this present day world, the lines between good and evil keep fading. It’s getting more difficult to distinguish the moral high ground from the depths of inequity for us all and the trust issues keep mounting. Who most benefits from a continually eroding state of mind between decent people everywhere?

  191. Sorry, since I have been banned, its like posting from Nigeria – sorry I mean Ghana – or wherever Craig posts from when it is really slow…

    I didn’t mean to post twice….

    My first attempt was via an American Free Internet spoofer thing – I don’t like using such websites even though they are free…I am me. My IP Address and My Comments are accepted on many much more active websites than this – and occasionally I get sent to the naughty boy’s place – and get banned – but most of them – even The Independent – let me back in…The Telegraph – well they are Just So Tolerant…I know what I am like….

    But they even let me post freely tonight – and didn’t delete a thing…

    I am just me FFS.

    I do not have any agenda or political allegiance – except to try and understand what the hell is going on before I die.

    Sorry for being boring….

    Maybe I was too fast – for you…

    Craig Come On…9/11..You must by now know..Or are You Brainwashed Or are You Still Working For The Globalist Elite…

    I Don’t Know..I am without Prejudice…

    I don’t do it. I don’t get paid.

    I take people as I find them…

    No one has hit me since I was a Child, and I have never hit anyone since I was a Child. I was 14 – and he was my Best Mate – and I did it Publicly in Front of The Whole Class and The Teacher..I Never Even Got Told Off.

    I sent him flying..They all looked at me.= in astonishment. Charley Doesn’t Do That. After they had patched him up…and he came back to class…everyone knew…He walks in, and my friend Stephen Briggs sits next to me. Everyone else shuffled up.

    We were at the back of the Class.

    2nd attempt

    3rd attempt – I don’t know – it just comes back and says failed -but maybe my message spins round the world for 5 minutes – and eventually arrives…

    Can’t you just delete your file – containing all theses Ip Addresses of Boring Bastards Like Me – who Don’t Necessarily Agree With You – But Mean You Know Harm – Just Think You are a Bit THICK

    Sorry I forgot the number count thing then.

    Hey you have got to have a sense of humour – amongst all this mania.

    Tony

  192. karel (concipary a day keeps idiocy away)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:10 pm

    Komodo,

    your contributions are lately somewhat disappointing for my taste. It is obvious that not every event is a false flag operation but it is stupid to believe the other extreme. Your statement “WW2 was started by George Formby on behalf of the Rothschilds” is so pathetic that I refrain from making any commnents. It may suprise you that WW2 was started off by a false flag operation whereby the Poles supposedly attacked and siezed the radio transmitter in Gliewitz to stage a one minute broadcast of some potpouri of anti-german propaganda. Shortly afterwards the one polish “soldier” still at the scene of crime was conveniently shot dead during the wehrmacht counteroffensive. You can read more about the story at http://desertwar.net/gleiwitz-incident.html. Although the entire incident appears as being conceived by some polish imbeciles you will still find many nazi websites claiming that it was actually real and not a false flag operation.

    John Goss is right by pointing to the Lendmans article . Try to refresh you mind by reading part one found at http://eyreinternational.wordpress.com/2013/05/

  193. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:13 pm

    “I know the busker who watched it all. He said they put chalk marks on the ground where the terrorists involved had to stand.”

    “In fact, the skipper said ‘it didn’t happen.’ He told me he didn’t recognise any of the officers on his own patch at the scene nor any of the members of the public, despite always seeing the same people.”

    http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/woolwich-false-flag-inside-job-fake.html

  194. The current wave of hatred against Islam expressed through a torrent of constant references to the “Islamic Extremism/Terrorism” are reliant on the correct decoding of the cryptoracist messages by its recipients. The hate fest dressed as the reportage of the events, has been almost comical in the tragic unfolding of events.

    The vox pop on the BBC news has yielded a white, blonde, blue eyed, mature lady to go on about; how she feels a second class citizen, and how immigration has changed the face of Woolwich. Then a young lady getting interviewed by the same reporter shyly looks into camera and says; you won’t show what I really think! Upon insistence of the reporter, she then relaxes and blurts out; “send them back to where they came from”.

    The conflation of the crusade on Islam and racism resulting in the pretty successful results of the program, has been the underlying theme of the fight against “Islamic Terrorists”. However this program somehow has not taken into account and remained blind to the problems that those born and bred here in UK. As is the case with Michael Adebolajo:

    was an ordinary British schoolboy; born in Lambeth in December 1984, he grew up in Romford, travelled to school on the bus, played football and appeared to have a lot of friends.

    Also Michael Adebowale, a 22-year-old British citizen of Nigerian descent, who himself was subject of a frenzied knife attack in 2008 by the crack addict Lee James who hacked Faridon Alizada to piecesFaridon Alizada to pieces during the same attack.

    Therefore to find the label of “Islamic Terrorists” so freely applied to these individuals, is in effect discounting their British origins. This further highlights the fact that despite these individuals being born and brought up in UK, as yet they are considered to be outsiders, and immigrants. This begging the question, just how many generations need to be born in UK before the label “English” is applicable to the individuals concerned?

    To further highlight the infantile, simplistic attitude so engrained in UK institutions, as demonstrated in Newsnight, Kirsty Wark asking Anjem Choudary; “why don’t you go back?” The only trouble being; Anjem Choudary is a born and bred Brit. Fact is, did the great aunties researchers fail to discover the little point about Anjem Choudary being a Brit? Or Kirsty Wark in her excitement forgot the little fact about Anjem Choudary being a Brit by birth?

    Notwithstanding the above, by now the producers and choreographers of the “War on Terror” game take it for granted that; the “news” consumers are pretty well conditioned to receive and consume the “ news” in its cryptoracist context. Hence the almost blatant and not so subtle incitement to hatred that is becoming an acceptable transaction.

    The sad fact that since the last Wednesday’s Woolwich incident, there have been more than 148 racially aggravated attacks on Muslims (unofficial figures from Tell Mama) reported. Fact that most of these disaffected British citizens are finding their isolation and disenfranchisement to be so intolerably routine that the only way of recourse is violence, cannot in any way be so simplistically blamed on “Islamic Terrorists” paving the way for greater powers of surveillance and repression.

    The constant fanning of the flames of hatred are now complemented with the planned march of EDL on Saturday through Newcastle, on Monday the same bunch of racists will be marching on Downing Street. Whilst BNP are planning a March for 1st June in Woolwich. Mission accomplished then.

  195. Alan Campbell

    24 May, 2013 - 11:19 pm

    Hasn’t anyone come up with a: Jewish/MI5/CIA set up theory behind the Woolwich attacks yet? Keep up lads.

  196. Sensible meanings Suhayl – your posts made the last show of hands endurable.

  197. People in this country do not seem to understand the backwardness of Muslim culture.

    What kind of a fucked up, stupid assertions is that?

  198. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:24 pm

    During the video rant, attacker #1 refers to women and children being killed in ‘our lands’, i.e. Moslem countries. Later on when he’s attacking Dave Cameron he says that ‘we should get our troops out of Afghanistan’. Totally unconvincing, he can’t even make up his mind if he in his own land or not.

  199. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    24 May, 2013 – 9:58 pm

    “PS – still waiting for your thoughts on what those “reasons” and “main reasons” might have been.”

    What I said, as you know is:

    “There are no excuses for what happened in Woolwich but, if you think carefully, there are reasons and one of the main reasons is British foreign policy.”

    What is it that you can’t understand about that sentence?

    By the way, I notice that you have recently been using the terms pn and pne. I confess that I don’t know what they mean perhaps you could enlighten me?

  200. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:25 pm

    Fedup @ 11:14

    A pandemic of ignorant flailing often attends. We regularly fail to recognize Sikhs for their ideology apart from the turban, which makes a convenient target for retribution and blood revenge.

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