The Sky Has Not Fallen 830

The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.

Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:

A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.

Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.

Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.

We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.

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830 thoughts on “The Sky Has Not Fallen

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  • fedup

    police said Drummer Rigby was struck by a blue Vauxhall Tigra registration number N696 JWX before being assaulted.

    Sky carries the above. The car in the pictures by the sign post is not a Tigra (someone else had alluded to this earlier).

  • doug scorgie

    Jesuit Atheist

    29 May, 2013 – 11:09 pm


    “You are factually incorrect. If you look at this snap you can see a large pool of blood which extends right under the tree and there is actually blood seen flowing past the rear of the car in other shots.”


    That is not blood!

    Look at the picture taken from the helicopter for example; you are crazy!

  • doug scorgie

    Woolwich killing:

    “Wycliffe Makasembo, who was the lawyer for Adebolajo at the time of his 2010 arrest in the tourist town of Lamu, said Kenyan anti-terrorism police detained him and six others when they tried to travel north to Somalia in a speedboat.”

    “They were suspected of attempting to go to train with the al Qaeda-linked Islamist militant group al Shabaab in Somalia, and were presented in a court in Mombasa, south of Lamu.”

    “Mr Makasembo told Reuters that Kenyan police at the time sought more information about Adebolajo… from the British High Commission in Nairobi.”

    “He added the British diplomatic mission replied in a letter to the police that “gave a clean bill of health that Michael Adebolajo had no criminal record or any connection with any criminal or terrorist organization in the world”.

    So it appears he was seen as valuable in some way by British Intelligence.

    Lee Rigby died because of the shenanigans of MI5, MI6, the foreign office, the home office and government ministers who would be “in the know”.

    They fucked-up; Lee died.

  • Dreoilin

    “So it appears he was seen as valuable in some way by British Intelligence.”

    which is why neither of them was shot dead, only injured (or were they even injured?). They are “assets”. They’ll go in the front door of prison and out the back, and be off doing another job somewhere else.

    In the above pic, the great swathe of liquid (on the side nearest to us) from the car, running to the right, is not blood. It’s some other fluid.

  • Dreoilin

    “There is a large pool of blood under the tree extending past the rear of the car.”

    No, there’s a thin trickle extending past the rear of the car.

  • Jesuit Atheist

    ‘”There is a large pool of blood under the tree extending past the rear of the car.”‘

    “No, there’s a thin trickle extending past the rear of the car.”

    Yes, I mean the blood is extending past the car and not the actual pool of blood – the picture is self evident and that is why I posted it.

    If Doug looked at it properly the first time I wouldn’t have to keep trying to say the same thing different ways to him in the hope he will ‘get it’.

    Doug said that was not even blood and called me crazy, but you are picking me up on a semantically vague sentence? Makes sense.

  • Dreoilin

    “If Doug looked at it properly the first time I wouldn’t have to keep trying to say the same thing different ways to him in the hope he will ‘get it’.

    Doug said that was not even blood and called me crazy”

    I think he’s talking about the fluid on the near side (the road side) of the car, which I agree is not blood.

  • Cryptonym

    Fluids from the car could include:

    Engine Oil (Thick viscous black)

    Transmission Oil (Thick viscous black)

    Power steering (If fitted) fluid (reservoir will be on front left corner of engine compartment), thick viscous, often but not necessarily red(ish), includes extensive pipework for PAS fluid which run along under radiator. Reservoir and pipes will be severely damaged.

    Brake Fluid (longditudinal brake pipe pair run along passenger side, reservoir is on high up on bulkhead at drivers side, reservoir itself probably not damaged)

    Petrol (can spread a large distance if spilled, will evaporate entirely given time, pipe pair (a feed and a return), run longditudinally at driver’s side)

    Screenwash (Reservoir is located in heavily damaged front nearside corner)

    Battery acid, thin, clear, will evaporate leaving a residue (battery on tigra is located front nearside, medium probablity of damage and leakage)

    Coolant (Water/Anti-freeze mixture, could be blue, red or manky, radiator certainly trashed)

    Fuel (plastic feed and return fuel lines run along driver’s side)

    LOL @ Rifkind mentioned, what a lying conniving toad, attitude suggests foreknowledge

  • doug scorgie

    Jesuit Atheist
    30 May, 2013 – 1:06 am

    “Yes, I mean the blood is extending past the car and not the actual pool of blood – the picture is self- evident and that is why I posted it.”

    JA the picture is not self-evident. I don’t accept that the fluid you refer to is blood. It is not the same colour although I admit that could be due to camera-angle and light.

    To me (though not claiming to be a forensic pathologist) the streams of fluid you refer to seem far too “watery” to be blood.

    I don’t know what the fluid is but I don’t think it is the victim’s blood.

  • Cryptonym

    Rifkind’s telling whinge about funding for intelligence, and was there an intelligence failure by cash- resource- and unaccountable power -strapped security services seemed oh so familiar. I read similar arguments here, from Zelikow: just recently.

    “We might infer from Zelikow’s 1998 paper projecting a 9-11 scenario that the rising
    Washington chatter about a coming plane attack on the WTC and unpursued suspects were part of the strategic plan for precisely the reasons Zelikow gives. “The effort and resources we devote to averting or containing this threat now, in the ‘before’ period”, he says, “will seem woeful, even pathetic, when compared to what will happen ‘after’”. The before-period when nothing was done, and plainly seen not to be done, in fact occurred just as imagined. And it justified to the majority the after-period when the U.S. state merely proclaims “terrorists” non-stop to justify a war rampage to get what it wants in the Middle East and Central Asia. Overriding basic human rights and civil liberties within and without the U.S., the arbitrary mass arrests, serial kidnappings and torture, murders without stop are the means and cover-up methods to ensure the supreme value goal and system into the future.”

    So expect a limited ‘poverty stricken’ security services mea culpa, with the blame spread so widely and thinly, as to exonerate everyone, plus rattling then feeding of their piggy banks to solve everything: “give us more money, now, or you’ll all be murdered in your beds!”.

  • oddie

    Washington Post: Officials: Man who knew Boston bombing suspect was unarmed
    when shot
    By Sari Horwitz and Peter Finn, Thursday, May 30
    One law enforcement official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to
    discuss an ongoing investigation, said Wednesday that Todashev lunged at the
    agent and overturned a table. But the official said Todashev did not have a
    gun or a knife. A second official also said Todashev was unarmed.
    An official said that according to one account of the shooting, the other
    law enforcement officials had just stepped out of the room, leaving the FBI
    agent alone with Todashev, when the confrontation occurred…
    Todashev’s father said after the shooting that he didn’t believe the FBI’s
    account of why they killed his son.
    “My son could never commit a crime, I know my son too well,” Abdul-Baki
    Todashev, who lives in Chechnya, told the Daily Beast Web site. “He worked
    helping disabled people in America and did sports, coached other sportsmen.
    The FBI made up their accusations.”…

  • Jemand

    Regarding the aerial photos of the car :

    1. The open/closed hatch is unremarkable, evidence of nothing other than what it appears to be.

    2. The fluid on the path in the lower half of the image, flowing downward and right from the car, is clearly auto fluid/s. Unremarkable.

    3. Apparent fluid in upper half of image, flowing downward and right from under the tree to well past rear of car, appears as if it’s source would converge with the bloody drag marks to a point under the tree and against the wall. This is consistent with reports that Lee Rigby was delivered stab wounds at that location prior to being dragged onto the road. I consider this fluid to probably be blood (and poss. urine and stomach contents) and that there would be more pooled under the tree, out of sight. This is also consistent with the reported autopsy results suggesting that cause of death was from multiple incisions, therefore haemorrhaging.

    Regarding blood on alleged killers, it should be understood that blood does not spurt from every opened part of a body and the pressure that produces spurting, dimishes with multiple bleeding wounds in short time, and the direction of blood flow is unpredictable except for downwards. There are plenty of historical examples of bloody death available on the web to support this.

    A man will have around 5.5 litres of blood in his body, losing 2 to 3 litres will cause death. The body will not lose all blood as some will remain in the corpse. Lee Rigby suffered severe trauma from being hit by the vehicle and might have succumbed quickly as a result of shock from both the impact and the initial blood loss from the multiple stab wounds. While losing blood, his own clothing would absorb much and we can reasonably anticipate little more than two litres of blood being variously distributed about the murder scene. I regard the visible portions of blood marks to be plenty for this death and other commentators expectations of more blood to be Hollywood inspired fantasy.

    4. The road sign (incorrectly described by me previously as a lamp post) is a robust, two pole structure with broad signage. I expect this kind of sign to be capable of sustaining a collision from a vehicle without dangerously collapsing onto pedestrians or a colliding vehicle in the event of a mishap. Whoever pays public liability insurance for this structure would not accept a construction that allows it to fall over so easily.
    . . .

    Now I think that what I wrote above is a reasonable explanation of some details that conforms with the public narrative. It took me a lot longer to think of how such points of detail are likely to be in reality than it would to conceive the sort of doubt-filled questions posted on this thread. Hopefully, some of you will see that it is much easier to paint a blurry picture of wickedness than to honestly and correctly answer technical questions about details that have myriad benign explanations.

  • Jesuit Atheist

    “I think he’s talking about the fluid on the near side (the road side) of the car, which I agree is not blood.”

    Really? But I said quite clearly a bit earlier at 23:32. I await his apology.

    There are the fluids (oil and coolant) from the car on the passenger side,and also blood on the driver side and towards the rear, flowing along by the wall.

    If you notice all fluids are draining toward the rear and the road, so the fluids seen flowing behind the car, i.e. between the wall and car, can not be coming from the car but higher up on the pavement, additionally the fluid appears to be the same colour as the blood.

    ‘JA the picture is not self-evident. I don’t accept that the fluid you refer to is blood…. I don’t know what the fluid is but I don’t think it is the victim’s blood.”

    No person has disputed, to my knowledge, that those two photos are showing blood under the tree. Look at the fileneame of this image for example…

    It says

    Another helicopter scene photo from terrorist attack in Woolwich Shows crashed car with blood on pavement

    Doug: with your strident and confident errors you are danger to informed public opinion.


    I urge people to review all my posts on this subject, going right back to last week, and show me any incorrect observations or assertions I have made (where I have not explicitly stated I was making a guess).

    It will be seen that the exact same questions remain totally unanswered one week later, even when people were saying ‘let’s wait and see’. Also, hopefully, you will see that I have no alternative theory and in fact I have already debunked two – the ‘no blood theory’ (now just adopted by Doug) and the ‘two different’ interview videos.

    A unique experience for me on this thread is to actually have people reject what I have said when it is they that should rightly be laughed off the board for sheer stupidity, ignorance and arrogance, at the same time others gloss over their nonsense to take up minor grammatical errors?

  • Kibo Noh

    Welcome to the Age


    Oft Repeated


    Pre-Mandated Narrative

    Questions Aid the Enemy

    Oft repeated Oft Repeated

    For Your Safety

    You Are to Remain


    The Comfort Zone

    Do Not Stay

    Do Not Question

    Do Not Risk Ridicule or Worse

    Oft repeated Oft Repeated

    For Your Safety

    Fasten tight to Teats


    Manufactured Narratives

    Do Not Ever Ask Yourself

    What Really Happened

    Do not look for Patterns

    Do not look for Precedents

    Always conflate Questioning


    Supporting the Enemy

    Oft repeated Oft Repeated

    For Your Safety

    Do Not Say

    Not in My Name

    Do Not Look Over There

    Oft repeated Oft Repeated

    For Your Safety

    Do Not Question Leaders

    Justifying Lethal Acts of War

    with words of

    Democracy and Peace

    Neccessary Humanitarian Intervention

    Responding to the Threat

    Defensive Strike

    or the

    Need to Take Difficult Decisions

    Oft repeated Oft Repeated

    For Your Safety

    Do Not Witness what goes on You

    Remain Safe


    Fearful Conformity

    Do Not Recognise the Needs of Others


    As Valid as Our Own

    Welcome to the Age

    of the

    Oft Repeated


    Pre-Mandated Narrative

    Oft repeated Oft Repeated

    For Your Safety



  • Jesuit Atheist

    Kibo Noh,

    thank’s for your uplifting posts during the past week.

    They say a change is as good as a rest and it’s been a really nice change having to use a different part of my brain to read your messages.

    There should be more poetry in politics IMO, then maybe there would be less lies too.

  • Kibo Noh

    Oops Repeated Oops Repeated


    I Always Post in too much Haste

    Should Be

    “Do Not Witness What Goes on Around You”

    Won’t Even Try to Count What Line

    Oops Repeated Oops Repeated

    Do Not Be An Embarrassment

  • Kibo Noh

    JA. Thanks

    Believe me, that makes it all worth while.

    And Yes. I think a little straying from straight prose, a little sideways look, can add perspective.

    Keep those questions coming.

  • Jesuit Atheist


    I see what you are doing there. In isolation you may have had a point… if my argument depended *entirely* on a filename. But, in the broader context, you have simply nailed your banner firmly to the mast with the rest of them.

    Gate-keeper tag? The hidden moderators that use pointless noise, lies and deliberate disinformation to censor and silence?

    Their attacks on authority are a sham to lull people into their confidence where, once gained, they then systematically set about attempting to demolition their message so that only the ‘authorised’ and ‘officials’ narrative may stand alone, unchallenged, isolated and naked – it has to because there is no internal consistency in their narrative and it cannot stand next to any other narrative without looking equally baseless and unsupported.

    It’s not whether an alternative narrative is morel likely or probable that’s the cause of the problem, it’s simply that people do have alternative views from the official account that’s the problem to these people.


  • Mark Golding - Children of Conflict

    ‘The Lab,’ Yotam Feldman explores how Israel’s weapons industries interact with the country’s politics, economy and military decision-making. Israeli weapons, military technology and know-how become more valuable because they have been field-tested in its wars and combat against Palestinians and neighboring countries.

  • Jemand

    Come on “Jesuit Atheist” (the shy Muslim), your conspiracy fantasy has run out of steam. One fellow has already been charged and other details are supporting accounts that this crime is exactly what it appears to be – two radical jihadists sent on a mission to incite civil unrest.

  • MJ

    “Israeli weapons, military technology and know-how become more valuable because they have been field-tested in its wars and combat against Palestinians and neighboring countries”

    Which wars are we talking about here? Bombing undefended civilians and civilian buildings in undefended countries is one thing, but I doubt it adds a lot of value. When was the last time Israel was at war with a country that had tanks and planes and proper defensive systems? The capability to evade Russian S-300s would certainly add some value.

  • Cryptonym

    @JesuitAtheist (12:28pm) I given my position on this earlier in comments here, I haven’t moved one bit from considering the official narrative, and with that the supporting evidence we’ve been permitted to see, as partly or wholly fabrications. No-one seems to have witnessed the car colliding with anything including the soldier, or witnessed the highly improbable offical claim of the soldier being caught between the car and pole, I still doubt the pole itself could come away from such an encounter unscathed, or that damage to the car could have been made by that particular pole. I still admit the possibilty of the soldier dieing in other circumstances or places. Nor have I ruled out the soldier possibly knowing, having contact, meeting with or being involved in some transaction with the accused; even considered his merely witnessing a collision and going to assist the car’s occupants and being attacked thereafter. I agree with you, if as I understand you were saying in your spat with Doug Scorgie, that there is a concentration of something that might ‘look like’ blood forward of the car close to the wall; I agree with whoever that there are two thin streams of fluid between the wall and the car, one goes under and emerges at the middle rear of the car, they have a reddish tinge evident with minor (brightness) enhancement, the source of these might originate from around the same point where matter that ‘looks like’ blood extending towards the kerb and the road, begins. I agree too with DS that these look too ‘watery’ for blood and agree with another that urine from whatever source, including wildcards such as passing dog could account for these puzzling streak. I also find an assertion that the poles/sign would have to resist a certain wind loading, exerting great leverage at the base, and not fail endangering pedestrians, is credible.

    While many people have made admittedly good points, conclusions are still wildly divergent.

    All we have is an dubious official narrative and a photographs of a scene, vetted by the suppliers of that official narrative and a with a controlled media again enhancing that narrative and photographic evidence for their own agenda (on the whole concordant with the official line almost always), filtering it too, with doctored photographs, which while in cases done to eliminate gore, including removing all trace of the stuff that ‘looks like’ blood where it is unquestionably clearly present in specific places in other versions of the same shot, or in synchronous photos taken showing the same location, such tweaking and modifying inconvenient or inconsistent matters, alter perceptions and seed suspicions.

    While there is the sub-judice aspect to now constrain popular media, the courts are not and should not be the only place where questions can be asked, they after all are not an agency representing themselves or an establishment, their efforts purport to serve Joe Public. But truth and law long ago became so hopelessly estranged they’re no longer even acquainted.

    We fall upon the minor details of the limited information we’re given and speculate on alternatives from a disadvantaged position, constrained entirely within the unreasonable bounds placed upon us by those who seek to lock us into their version of events.

    We know who and we know why, we just don’t yet know quite exactly how.

  • Jesuit Atheist

    “Come on “Jesuit Atheist” (the shy Muslim), your conspiracy fantasy has run out of steam. ”

    In one post you concluded that I was a “spook” after providing a brief ‘analysis’ of my screen name (a conspiracy theory?).

    As well as repeat factual errors and misinformation (presumably because that is all that second class mind is capable of without guidance) you then suggests the reason I hold my views is because I am a secret Moslem? What a stupid drongo.

    You’re all shilling your arses off for the official narrative because they’re brainwashed idiots or being paid too.

    If there was any reasonable intellectual curiosity you would not be spending your energies opposing my views with nothing except ad hominem attacks and blatant lies. You’re the ones who have run out of steam – steam being facts, knowledge and reasoned argument of course.


    Now, who wants to discuss the coincidence that placed MSM photo-journalist and provider of anti-Arab propaganda to ‘The Sun’, Gavin Rodgers, on the scene.#

    He’s then so upset he jets off on holiday… two days later… to Ibiza? (according to his twitter, surely that’s just a coincidence)? Oh, and his twitter also reveals that he retweeted the Boya Dee false account very early in the day (another conicidence).

    Also, not only did he take one version of the ranting video (Pixel8000 is credited multiple times with published stills taken from it) he also gets a ride in a police helicopter later, again according to accredited images?

    Anyone got anything?

  • Jesuit Atheist

    that should be ‘…because YOU’RE brainwashed…’ of course.

    Good Day.

  • fedup

    I also find an assertion that the poles/sign would have to resist a certain wind loading, exerting great leverage at the base, and not fail endangering pedestrians, is credible.

    What are the forces and the relevant safety factors to be designed for in the worst case storm scenarios, concerning the sign posts and lamp posts? The mechanics of forces involved do not add up, science does not do beliefs.

    The said forces cannot add up to the shock loading of a vehicle impact, regardless of the crumple zones built into the target vehicle. this kind of disinformation only can come from those conformity gauleiters (as per the admission of various talking heads on the telly) assigned to keep the narrative firmly fixed within the desired/dictated/predetermined referential frames.

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