Do Agents Provocateurs Exist? 32


There can be no doubt that, at the G20 protests, at times the police were unnecessarily violent towards non-violent protestors. Yet at other times they were puzzlingly non-violent towards inexcusably violent protestors.

I postulated that one explanation might be that the small number of “protestors” who were theatrically and irrationally violent, were not actually protestors at all. I could think of other explanations, but no better ones, as to why police would not arrest a small, isolated and outnumbered group who were attacking them with sticks.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/04/death_of_a_demo.html#comments

There is a website called Harry’s Place which exists to promote New Labour and a particularly virulent and sometimes openly racist strain of Zionism. That website has this morning put up a post called “Craig Murray Latest Lunacy”, where they assert that even to imagine that our security services might employ agents provocateurs is a symptom of madness.

It is not that Harry’s Place have a naive faith in their political masters. It is rather that they are engaged in a cynical attempt to manipulate public opinion. What do they expect us to believe that 4,500 people at MI5 actually do for a living, and why is it Top Secret?


32 thoughts on “Do Agents Provocateurs Exist?

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  • OrwellianUK

    Compared with the documented evidence of MI5/6 using Terrorist groups as provocateurs abroad (eg in the Balkans conflicts) and probably domestically too (Rashid Aswat ‘7/7 mastermind’ protected in a safe house) this kind of thing is small potatoes.

  • edwin

    Montebello – that was my thought as well – and the exact article I looked up too…

    Here is a bit more about that:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow

    Cops with rocks and masks attempting to start a riot.

    Craig Murray Latest Lunacy”, where they assert that even to imagine that our security services might employ agents provocateurs is a symptom of madness.

    We have it on youtube. We have an admission from the police. Yes, we must be mad.

  • Leo Davidson

    It’s the usual deal. It’s unthinkable to even *consider* that ‘our side’ *might* use trickery. Meanwhile, any stories about ‘the enemy’ doing the same sorts of thing are taken as gospel without any scrutiny.

    A theory about conspirators only becomes a “conspiracy theory” (in the pejorative sense) when it involves our leaders/institutions. When it only involves the people we’re fighting against then it’s automatically fact.

    Which isn’t to say that all conspiracy theories are true. Of course not. Most of them are utter hogwash. But we should apply the same standards of evidence, plausibility, etc. to all theories regardless of where they come from or who they benefit.

    If a theory is clearly insane then it should be very easy to dismiss without resorting to name calling.

  • OrwellianUK

    Leo,

    Good points. It’s the fact that they resort to name calling that is telling don’t you think?

  • bob hope

    You will recall that the Daily Mail ran an article by Yasmin Whittaker-Khan, where she explained how she bumped into a known senior police officer, Chris Dreyfus, dressed like a press photographer with a large expensive camera, who shouted “Pigs out!” and enticed others to the front of the police-protestor clashes.

    The article has been removed from the Mail’s website but can still be found at:

    http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=662&Itemid=27

    Also look at:

    Quebec police admit going undercover at montebello protests

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAfzUOx53Rg

    Possible agent provocateur at G20 protests

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdaG73W_Z18

  • Ruth

    Saying that someone is off their head is a normal tactic by MI5/MI6 and their affiliates. The most recent example I know of is the smearing of Dr Swire who has campaigned for many years to find out who really bombed the plane his daughter was travelling in over Lockerbie. The man responsible for the smearing was the former Lord Advocate, Peter Fraser. Peter Fraser is a privy councilor.

  • David T

    “You will recall that the Daily Mail ran an article by Yasmin Whittaker-Khan, where she explained how she bumped into a known senior police officer, Chris Dreyfus, dressed like a press photographer with a large expensive camera, who shouted “Pigs out!” and enticed others to the front of the police-protestor clashes.”

    You will also recall that

    (a) it obviously wasn’t the hugely well known and very senior police officer Chris Dreyfus, who is well known for doing liaison work with LGBT Londoners, and not for undercover work

    (b) George Galloway also jumped on the bandwagon

    (c) The allegations were, of course, completely without foundation

    (d) Galloway quite rightly apologised:

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/06/the-end-of-the-dreyfus-affair/

    (e) But nevertheless we must still be aware of the DANGERS of M17!!!! (very VERY secret) puting NANOBOAT’S in our BRAYNS to brodcaste our THOGHT’S on GOGOLSTREETVEIW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • bob hope

    David T, you are just a pathetic condescending troll. You haven’t got the capacity to create any original content on your ‘blog’, so you are reduced to gutter politics by sniping other people who are willing to have an open debate.

  • MJ

    For only the second time in my life I visited Harry’s Place and took a lot at the piece about Craig. The amusing thing is that the great majority of comments, from New Labour Zionists as they may be, actually support Craig on this one and think the original poster was being naive!

    Anyway, I’m now going to remove the site from my history folder. I don’t want it dirtying my computer.

  • MJ

    Odd we haven’t heard from young eddie on this one; Harry’s Place is his favourite site apparently. I thought this post would be like a red rag to a bull for him. Especially since there’s a comment from someone calling themselves “self-hating joo”.

  • The beaver

    They have always existed except that those in Montebello got caught redhanded because they were being watched and followed by a group who anticipated things like that. Even in 1968 in Chicago there are stories that agents provocateurs caused a lot of trouble.

  • Mr Danger

    Interesting that so many people here and elsewhere show that Quebec video as proof that UK riots are staged. As if that weren’t enough of a stretch, the video doesn’t show anybody doing anything except pretending to be a protester. Well yes, undercover cops try to infiltrate violent groups. So what?

  • writerman

    Re. conspiracy theories. Isn’t the sainted Obama guilty of promoting the massive conspiracy theory that Afghanistan is the frontline in the global war on terror, and if we lose there, we’ll end up fighting on the streets of Western cities?

    Does any of it stand up to sober analysis? 9/11 was planned, as far as the narative goes, in Hamburg, Miami and New York, not Afghanistan, why on earth would one need Afghanistan to plan future attacks?

    Obama is really George Bush, only with a new mask.

  • punkscience

    Scum as they are, the armchair racists at HP are right on the Dreyfuss issue.

    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3531

    Acknowledging that is clearly a world apart from rescinding accusations of police complicity in this week’s agitation. Craig’s last paragraph is the sort of thing the HP mob just can’t address because its utterly irrefutable.

    Anyone remember John Vidal writing this:

    “According to the FBI, “eco-terrorism”, or “ecotage”, is now the number one domestic terrorism threat in the US, greater than that of rightwing extremists, anti-abortion groups and animal rights organisations, and on a par with al-Qaida.”

  • Kerstin in Sweden

    This is very interesting, because I (who am Swedish) have also suspected that there were provocateurs (belonging to the the police) in Gothenbourg at the EU-meeting in 2001, when Bush also vistited Gothenborg.

    The police forces behaved in a new way, and much more violent, compared to how they use to behave in situations like this. Among other things a big group of police men was just standing there, watching while a gang of masked men destroyed the main street in Gothenburg. It was very astonishing and cunfusing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgr4QiLnXA

    (sorry that they speak Swedish in the film) In the middle of the film we can see some policmen doing nothing. We also can se that there were no big amount av destroyers in the street, most people moved piecefully around.

    The plice also fenced in a group of a few hundred pieceful domonstrators in a market place, and forced them to sit there for hours, even though none of them had done anything wrong or violent. Finally one of the Swedish police commanders there found it akward so he reliesed the people. Obviosly he did so against orders from above.

    In another place, also totally pieceful people were driven out of a school, which was their night shelter during the meeting days. They were forced to lay down with their faces down into the wet street. Then the special police force surched the school, as they had been told, they said, that there were terrorists in there. The special police force surched the building fully armed and prepared to shut any time, but a totally unarmed caretaker at the school went before them, opening all the doors for them!!! (obviously he was meant to have been sacrified if – but there were not terrorists in there!!!)

    Om top of this there were a lot of demonstators imprisoned and later many of them got very severe punihments, compared to the usual ones, several years in prision.

    We have never before seen the Swedish police behave like this. On the other hand, we have read about the same tactics used by the Armican police when president Bush visited some town or place where protetsts were expected.

    This occation has been widely discussed in Sweden and those who have investigated the situation (some interested journalists) found that some of the later imprisoned people were quite innocent, and also that a lot of material films etc, showing what happened, was destroyed by the police afterwords. The trials that followed, are, by those in Sweden who are informed, viewed as justice murder of several persons and the trial as a purely political one.

    There is also a few books written in Swedish about what happened.

    Since this occation we have seen more of the same police tactics in connection with other demonstrations, and heard of similar situations in other European countries, and now you are telling the same story from London.

    I do not believe this is a pure coincidence.

    (Excuse me my imperfect English).

  • Drew Murray

    Yes – there are agent provocateurs. I found it very odd that the RBS (which was an obvious target) had not boarded up their windows, and that no police were at the scene to prevent the vandalism. There were plenty at the Climate Camp though – beating folks over the head who had their hands up, and were chanting: ‘this is not a riot”.

  • Jaded

    Agent Provocateurs? We’ll soon have 60,000 of them! As they will be trained to spot terrorists they may well start a revolution for us. We just have to nudge them in the direction of Tony and Gordon and put our feet up. :-0 Unchecked power controlling a system will do whatever it needs to do to retain control. If the system is seriously threatened the self-defence mechanisms can be ruthless. It’s primal and not ‘everyone’ within the power system fully comprehends exactly what they are doing. Some of them know ‘exactly’ what they are doing though. Those ones are sick puppies and just see the population as cattle. Yes, you figured out that being a shite can bring great rewards after you realised that you were a completely talentless tithead. Yes, well done, bravo. And i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, many of them are active paedophiles. Paedophiles are scheming and manipulative so what business would you expect to find them in? There will usually be some sort of self-justification for members of the power system, but it will invariably tally with personal advancement; not rocking the boat; and money etc.. The PNAC document is a great example. They use terms like preserve ‘American’ greatness, ‘American’ influence, ‘American’ power etc.. However, it’s just themselves the authors are really thinking about. The small minority. Nationality barely comes into it. Just think identity and deconstruction. It’s funny that those in power don’t ever seem to do something that hurts them. I mean the odds are inevitably that this should occur from time to time! The minority acting in the interests of the majority with no personal consideration. If only… I think a collective consciousness of elite (twat) awareness is growing, but it’s not enough to really change things. To end my ramble, because I always ramble, I would conclude that ‘if’ agent provocateurs are deemed useful they will be used and if they are not they won’t. It’s as simple as that. In my opinion the thought police deem them useful.

  • researcher

    “people are told to delete photos of officers from their cameras, under the threat of seizure.

    Interestingly the joint committee on human rights (JCHR) of the UK parliament has just made a couple of recommendations about policing directly condemning the use of these anti-terror powers to police protest.”

  • anticant

    The National Council for Civil Liberties [now Liberty] was set up in the 1930s to monitor policing of [mostly anti-fascist] demonstrations.

    When they were instrumental in exposing a detective-sergeant who attempted to plant a half brick on a demonstrator in the early 1960s, the policeman was hastily found to be mentally ill and there was a public enquiry chaired my a QC into how he had been permitted to continue on operative duty in such a state.

    Those days are long gone, alas.

  • punterhunt

    hello Craig, this is Punterhunt here, can you confirm or deny whether you are the reincarnation of the Maitreya?

  • Anonymous

    Punterhunt

    Sorry, joke lost on me, as I don’t know what he/she/it is. But then I don’t believe in reicarnation.

  • Craig

    No, don’t think so. Unless there is some money waiting for him, in which case I’ll give it a go.

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