Having complained of people posting off topic, it seems a reasonable solution to give an opportunity for people to discuss the topics I am banning from other threads – of which 9/11 seems the most popular.
I do not believe that the US government, or any of its agencies, were responsible for 9/11. It would just need too many people to be involved. Someone would have objected. There are some strange and dangerous people in America, but not in sufficient concentration for this one. They couldn’t even keep Watergate quiet, and that was a small group. Any group I can think of – even Blackwater – would contain operatives with scruples about blowing up New York. They may be sadly ready to kill people in poor countries, but Americans en masse? Somebody would say it wasn’t a good idea.
I asked a friend in the construction industry what it would take to demolish the twin towers. He replied nine months, 80 men, and 12 miles of cabling. The notion that a small team at night could plant sufficient explosives embedded at key points, is laughable.
The forces of the aircraft impacts must have been amazingly high. I have no difficulty imagining they would bring down the building. As for WTC 7, again the kinetic energy of the collapse of the twin towers must be immense.
I admit to a private speculation about WTC7. Unfortunately in construction it is extremely common for contractors not to fix or install properly all the expensive girders, ties and rebar that are supposed to be enclosed in the concrete. Supervising contractors and municipal inspectors can be corrupt. I recall vividly that in London some years ago a tragedy occurred when a simple gas oven explosion brought down the whole side of a tower block.
The inquiry found that the building contractor had simply omitted the ties that bound the girders at the corners, all encased in concrete. If a gas oven had not blown up, nobody would have found out. Buildings I strongly suspect are very often not as strong as they are supposed to be, with contractors skimping on apparently redundant protection. The sort of sordid thing you might not want too deeply investigated in the event of a national tragedy.
Precisely what happened at the Pentagon I am less sure. There is not the conclusive film and photographic evidence that there is for New York. I am particularly puzzled by the much more skilled feat of flying that would be required to hit a building virtually at ground level, in an urban area, after a lamppost clipping route – very hard to see how a non-professional pilot did that. But I can think of a number of possible scenarios where the official explanation is not quite the whole truth on the Pentagon, but which do not necessitate a belief that the US government or Dick Cheney was behind the attack.
In my view the real scandal of 9/11 was that it was blowback – the product of a malignant terrorist agency whose origins lay in CIA funding and provision. Also blowback in a more general sense that it was spawned in the nasty theocratic dictatorship of Saudi Arabia which is so close to the US and to the Bush dynasty in particular. As with almost all terrorist activity, I do not rule out any point on the whole spectrum of surveillance, penetration and agent provocateur activity by any number of possible actors.
But was 9/11 false flag and controlled demolition? No, I think not.
(Now I have given full opportunity to discuss 9/11 here, any further references on other threads will be instantly deleted).
Exexpat, yes it is Mind War, and we are all casualties. That’s why I say, genuinely, and thus unlike Cameron, without truth, we are lost.
If you’ve ever been in psychotherapy, you’ll know that the process is one of coming to accept unpleasant facts about oneself. It’s when we deceive ourselves that we suffer psychological problems, the extreme case being the cliché of the man who believes he’s Napoleon, which obviously does not correspond with act.
As the writer and psychiatrist M. Scott Peck put it in his wonderful book The Road Less Traveled:
It is as if the sum of human consciousness is currently psychotic; various parts of the truth are hidden from different large sectors of the population. Now that the Internet is available, a more balanced view can be obtained by sampling media from around the world; The Guardian, Der Spiegel, Al Jazera and Russia Today are all useful. However, each leave out facts that are embarrassing to the national and corporate systems upon which they are dependent.
I’m sorry that this isn’t simple. The world’s a big place and we have only little brains with which to try to make sense of it.
Sorry; “…the man who believes he’s Napoleon, which obviously does not correspond with fact.
“I believe that hijackers really did fly passenger aircraft into buildings. ”
You don’t say? It wasn’t clear to me… 😉
Yes I saw that curtis film didn’t we discuss about “burial” used in its soundtrack?
What about the ultimate propaganda shock therapy: the military psychological operation – PSYOP.
Would you agree they exist?
Exepat, at 8:48 pm I wrote:
And can you guess which part of the (deeply flawed) 9/11 Commission Report was not published?
Yep, the bit that deals with the Saudi backers who ordered and paid for the attacks.
The report just blames it all on al-Qaeda, which officially is an enemy of the Saudi power structure. But al-Qaeda is an organisation of Wahabbists that have rebelled against the corruption of the Saudi royal houses; they were indoctrinated under that brutal regime nonetheless. Their being rebels enables those that make use of them to deny responsibility.
Actually, the Saudi royal houses quite deliberately turn their violent Wahabbist rebels out towards the rest of the world to distract them from making trouble at home. They serve to project Saudi influence and power, and are currently running amok in Syria among many other places.
And this serves the Neocon agenda, as did 9/11.
Exepat, my comments above; this is what a real conspiracy looks like. Complicated, messy, partly “spun”, and only partly hidden.
“Exexpat, it isn’t so much what is taught as what is not taught.
In “The West”, propaganda is usually done by omission rather than direct fabrication. In the USSR there were only two newspapers, one’s name translated to “The Truth” and was a tabloid-type rag full of meaningless tittle-tattle. The other’s name translated to “The News”; it covered serious subjects but often included outright fabrication. But people got wise to the propaganda and so a joke was coined; “we have two newspapers, but The Truth contains no news, and The News contains no truth”.
Agreed and a great example.
In “The West”, the corporate media system is wise enough to maintain its credibility by avoiding outright falsification, except in cases of extreme necessity.”
In the UK Its this lot http://www.dsma.uk/ isn’t it?
Exepat, yes, Burial was used in Bitter Lake, and yes, we did discuss that.
Oh yes, there are PSYOPS all right. There are elements of PSYOP to the depiction of 9/11. But the Neocons didn’t have to fake 9/11; their pet Wahabbists really did it. Much safer that way; no chance of getting busted. It’s called “plausible deniability”.
I mean the ones who serve D notices to get stuff removed or not published at all.
It’s called “plausible deniability”.
Or in business speak – outsourcing 🙂
Oh that’s the D-Notice system. They don’t use that very often. They don’t need to.
Question: do governments control corporations or do corporations control governments?
Yes, outsorcing. “Not our fault guv. The contracted company fucked up”.
Exexpat, fancy some deep research, some serious reading? Duncan McFarlane does meticulously referenced research. Here are a couple of examples:
http://inplaceoffear.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/they-didnt-even-try-to-keep-americans.html
http://inplaceoffear.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/9-11-warnings-ignored-timeline-summer.html
Always up for reading so yes I’ll take a look – but just started to read through those links re Mary and the media fakery. Thats a lot to digest so bear with me.
Can I walk through a scenario with you?
Let’s say you and me are top brass military assigned to plan a huge operation.
The goal is that our bosses get this confluence of money/power/policy wins that can be unlocked with one spooktacular cataclysmic event.
Would we risk a physical attack or indeed add complexity by outsourcing the physical attack?
So many risks with the physical attack. Were a pair of military cunts who detest risk.
And can you imagine the risks associated with a physical attack? I could list em but you know em already. MASSIVE RISKS.. Multiple strikes, multiple locations, christ what if the towers don’t come down?! Plus imagine trying to sell killing your own (upper middle class and connected) people to the rest of the team?
Not.
Going.
To.
Happen.
No much less risk and much cheaper PSYOP it and “create the reality”. Six Sigma reliance upon very OLD tech military smokescreen and old school propaganda. A quite boring but unseen demolition of the towers.
Fee asbestos everyone yay! Woo get that Military Industrial Complex Party started.
Generally, I reckon the military aren’t so bad. It’s the ambitious politicians who send them, the politicians reaping the reward of looking “tough” to the gullible tabloid readers, and the arms companies that make the money – these ones are keen on war. The actual military are at the sharp end of war and they’re generally not half as keen on it as the former two groups.
Caveat: in the UK we have an “officer class” who go through posh education; the low-rank enlisted personnel don’t.
Interrupted – ‘phone call…
Question: do governments control corporations or do corporations control governments?
No idea. But if I were pushed to guess I would say that there is a group that control the structure or framework that these entities operate in.
The most powerful person I met is ms. del ponte.
I never saw security like that or came close to that level of power.
She had dutch secret service with her at ALL times. When she moved between buildings it was a military operation. Fascinating to watch.
NO evidence but seemed to me UN was full of spies. I think I saw one quite regularly. Didn’t realise it at the time but looking back I think so now.
Sorry, long ‘phone call. I agree; most regular military wouldn’t want to touch it.
Spooks are another matter, but they mostly deal in information…
But why worry when there are already a load of religious fanatics who want to attack the Great Satan anyway? Just sit back and wait; they’ll attack when they can and there’s your “new Pearl Harbor”. Perfect excuse; you can attack and perform “regime change” in those Middle Eastern countries where the oil is, and those damn Muslims’ were asking for it, right? After all, your average voter can’t tell one type of Muslim from another.
Helps if half your air force is up by the Arctic circle on manoeuvres; of course there’s no way the Saudis could have discovered the timing for that, is there? I mean it’s not like the Bush family are really close to the Bin Ladens, or that the CIA regularly cooperate with al-Qaeda or anything…
Who cares whether the Twin Towers collapse completely or not? But hit them both with planes, definitely, so at least the second one gets on telly.
Clark: That’s it? If you consider our conversation settled and over, it would be nice if you at least acknowledge that we’ve agreed to disagree, several days back, rather than blithely assume your wisdom has been gratefully accepted. And why, for that matter. Elsewhere, you excuse yourself taking time away for a telephone call!
Your compelling grasp of first year O-level physics notwithstanding, I didn’t seriously respond to that any more than I responded to your grossly insulting and maliciously misinterpreted value judgements against myself, in the manner they so richly deserved.
It didn’t believe you were _that_ arrogant until the last few days wore on.
Clearly, I was wrong.
Clark, “Just sit back and wait; they’ll attack when they can”
>The operation HAD to be on 9/11The towers HAD to come down<
If your not happy with those statements shout and we can debate.
EDIT ignore above let’s just take one statement at a time.
Clark, “Just sit back and wait; they’ll attack when they can”
1) The operation HAD to be on 9/11
Agree or disagree?
Exexpat, at present I know of no operational reason why the attacks had to happen on 9/11. I have seen it claimed that 9/11 is an anniversary of some specific event, but every day is an anniversary of something or other, so this might be significant or not. Presumably, some other anniversary could have been chosen.
Likewise, I can see no compelling reason that the Twin Towers needed to completely fall for various groups’ objectives to have been served. Al-Qaeda would have made their essentially symbolic attack on the USA, and the Neocons would have gained their excuse for various wars and regime-changes in the Middle East, and for reduction of rights and civil liberties in “The West”.
You needn’t have asked me. If you know of compelling reasons you could have just stated them.
Glenn, I think you should consider your own psychology to find the reason for your apparent anger at me. Meanwhile, I’ll review some of our discussion.
Glenn, I looked back and confirmed my belief. You originally argued that the collapses of the towers were “implausible” based upon an argument about momentum on 8 Jan at 2:13 am:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/the_911_post/comment-page-20/#comment-572634
You never quantified that argument. I did, and found it unsatisfactory. You then shifted your argument to one concerning the strength of the buildings’ construction.
Glenn, look, I could go on, but I suspect that you’re being somewhat dishonest. It’ll make little difference to me; I gave up on human nature years ago.
Glenn, another thing. You’re projecting. It was you that launched into arrogance, when you started playing to the gallery rather than addressing arguments of physics in your comment of 29 Jan, 1:13 am:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/01/the_911_post/comment-page-22/#comment-575685
Morning Clark,
How you feeling? I think I’m going down with something…
If I may get back to scenario – were back, probably London, holed up thrashing out our plan before we present to the fucking maniacs.
“Supreme Commander Clark, this operation has to make maximum impact. In order for this event to achieve this we will carry it out on the same number and “name” used by the US emergency services. This will mean it is forever burned into the peoples brains and will be AMERICA’S 911 (Emergency). The people have to be convinced they are under attack and be able to refer to it simply by its name.
This also means that every time 911 is mentioned or read (prob 10’s of thousands times each day) then the people will be reminded each time. So that the PSYOP is permanently linked to US societies daily media output.”
There is massive significance of that date. It’s a huge area of research.
Exexpat, 2 Feb, 11:08 pm; regarding our exchange:
Actually, I posed something of a trick question; can you see what the trick was?
So what are your ideas about this group that controls the overall structure?
NEVER FORGET 911.
Never forget that 9+1+1=11
Never forget the NIST report:
11. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)
From the above sentence as (WTC2 hit first): “11” “9” “11”.
These numbers have HUGE significance both to this operation and the intelligence services.
Good morning Exexpat. I’m feeling reasonably healthy but essentially unhappy. Sorry you’re feeling poorly; I hope it passes soon.
I agree that 9/11 could have been chosen for the reason you give, but the wars, reductions of civil liberties, etc. could all have followed without it.
I’m not supreme commander material.
Link to NIST FAQ for other readers
http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm
We’re probably doomed as a species. We’re technologically capable of solving the environmental problems we’ve created but we’re not going to do so because of our psychology.
On the whole, we’re more motivated to be believed than we are to be honest, and we’re more motivated to win our arguments than to be right.
That places us at odds with natural law, and so natural law will obliterate us, just as it obliterates young fools who drive recklessly or believe they can handle any degree of intoxication.
“I’m not supreme commander material.”
Haha. me neither.
Seriously though and if I may suggest you should look into semiotics and the significance these numbers hold to the intelligence services.
You could start by going back in history as to when and why the number changed.
Wickedpedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-1-1 doesn’t of course list the source 😉