Declining Democracy

by craig on July 7, 2012 8:59 am in Uncategorized

Total membership of political parties in the UK has declined, very steadily and inexorably, from about 3.3 million in 1968 to about 500,000 in 2010. That is even worse than it sounds because of course the population grew substantially in the same period. That is one of the fascinating facts in this report by Democratic Audit.

That is just one of a large number of PDFs that comprise the total report. It is well worth reading and it reinforces the argument, consistently made on this blog, that democracy has failed in this country.

There is one constituent of a genuine democracy that the report does not seek to measure, but which I think could usefully be quantified by political scientists. That is the degree of real choice being offered by the political parties. I am sure that this has very substantially declined as well. There is no real choice on offer nowadays between the various neo-con parties. The differences on the timing and depth of cuts in public services, on continued privatisation of health services, on Trident nuclear weapons, on Afghanistan, on the money men who control the politicians, are miniscule. Only in Scotland do voters have a genuine choice of a different direction, and they take it.

This is a direct consequence of the other trends the Democratic Audit does measure. They show that the parties are more than ever, and constantly more, not avenues for popular participation but the domain of a political class and controlled by a wealthy “elite”. It is no wonder that they all have the same programme of promoting the interests of that elite.

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158 Comments

  1. Arthur Dent: “So why do they vote for the lizards?”
    .
    Ford Prefect: “Because if they don’t, the wrong lizard might get in”.

  2. Clark, it’s awesome how often Adams managed to hit the bulls eye, casually, in passing, without taking aim – like some kind of Zen archer.

    You could think about it for months without coming up with a better distillation.

  3. Unfortunately, Craig, I am very much afraid that the very real evolution you describe is more or less inevitable. Like actual Darwinian evolution, political evolution is not necessarily for what we would consider the best (although much tosh has been emitted about how it must be). Having studied history (and recently gone back to it in search of context) I can’t help noticing that for the greatest part of our existence, we human beings have been ruled by tyrants or dictators. Absolute rulers, anyhow – not necessarily as bad as those names sound. I firmly believe that life under some absolute rulers is better than life under some incompetent, shambling democracies. (And the rfact that I share that particular belief with Hitler doesn’t discourage me in the least – he was also a non-smoker).

    It seems a long time since the Enlightenment, but that’s only because we are such short-lived creatures and have such short memories. (Also, each fresh generation seems powerfully compelled to despise and ignore the achievements of everyone who lived before). Remember what Ben Franklin said when asked what kind of constitution had been chosen for the fledgling USA? He said, “A republic, if you can keep it”. A little later, he perceptively remarked that, “When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic”. Well, it turned out not to be the people as a whole, but 1% of them or fewer… nevertheless, the principle stands.

    We have seen democracy of a kind come to life, and grow, and survive for a while, and now what we are left with is its fossilised skeleton. People walk about through the colossal bones and congratulate themselves on how free they are. Yet when did you last ask yourself, in any specific situation, exactly how free you really are?

  4. Mike Rogers

    7 Jul, 2012 - 9:36 am

    Agree fully with your sentiment.

    It goes hand-in-hand with the general decline in people voting at elections. In that case, the ghastly, smug politicians try to suggest that the low turnouts are because the electorate are so content with the way things are being run. Of course we are! How could we be otherwise?

    BTW, the word is minuscule.

  5. There is an alternative – the Respect Party, of which I am a member after leaving the Labour Party when they invaded Afghanistan. I was a member of Labour since I was 15 years old. The Respect Party is not taken seriously, despite being democratically elected by citizens of this country in Bradford West, because of George Galloway’s disgusting demonisation by politicians and journalists (even so called left wing Guardian journalists). These are the same journalists of course who mock and demonise Julian Assange for exposing the truth about the corruption and war crimes of the West. I think Respect is like old Labour, a true anti-war Socialist Party, and I think it is a shame for democracy that this true alternative will probably not get off the ground country wide because the media and traditional “no-choice” parties are actually now anti Socilaism and real change.

  6. The report states the ‘bleedin’ obvious’ doesn’t it? The chair of Democratic Audit, Simon Burall, is an ‘Ambassador for WWF’ which somewhat diminishes his credentials.
    .
    Just look at what WWF has morphed into. Representatives from banking, Goldman Sachs, big business, Coca Cola, big US politics, big everything. The only group not represented seem to be arms manufacturers but their interests are most probably there somewhere on the board. Just scroll through the biographies. http://www.worldwildlife.org/who/board/index.html

    .
    Save the planet, save the threatened species? Yes indeed.

  7. I like the idea of Professor Brian Cox being Prime Minister. Apartfrom Merke, I wonder if any other physicists have made it in politics…?

  8. I meant to say Merkel. And welcome back Craig.

  9. Great point. Welcome back Craig. X

  10. Echoed by John Lydon on Question time when he espoused that, its not about left or right.

  11. Declining party membership could be a positive sign. It might indicate less political polarisation, fewer grievances to be addressed by parties, decline in interest for political patronage, and most importantly more independently-minded swing voters.

  12. AW, I was initially hopeful when Galloway was elected in Bradford, but now I suspect his fame contributed to his victory; Respect and other smaller parties don’t have enough such high-profile candidates to become significant in parliament.
    .
    Maybe I’m just being too pessimistic; I hope so. There is also Caroline Lucas.

  13. Lord Palmerston

    7 Jul, 2012 - 11:04 am

    Good riddance to democracy. The best government is through a limited
    franchise, such as we had from the middle ages through to the horribly
    mistaken reforms about a century ago that brought us universal
    suffrage.

    The common man (or woman), it turns out, is utterly unfit to be
    entrusted with the vote. Far better to take one’s chances with
    government by an aristocratic elite than by sleazy populists elected
    by fools.

    But as our electorate is unlikely to vote for their own
    disenfranchisement, our descent towards popular fascism is going to
    continue.

  14. O/T but maybe not. A seventh person, a woman from Hackney, is arrested by the ‘anti-terror police’ following the violent arrests of three men in Newham and two men and a woman in Ealing during the week.
    .
    Blowing off front door R Us.
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18751617

  15. Those were terribly whimsical points Sandman.
    .
    “It might indicate less political polarisation”
    The *degree* of polarisation can more often be greater within smaller groups.
    .
    “fewer grievances to be addressed by parties”
    Pure wishfulness, standard hollow political kant.
    .
    “decline in interest for political patronage”
    This is worded to sound like it could be a positive by replacing “participation” with “patronage”
    .
    “most importantly more independently-minded swing voters.”
    Would “independence of mind” or voting dynamism be improved or worsened by a reduced choice in politics?

  16. Far from proffering any particular political direction, we have had all sorts of connotations from radical left via expressively green socialist to our dogma laden main parties who are living in a bubble of their own making.
    .
    Despite the negative hang ups the term Independents have received from those who’d rather leave the conservative mother ship then get deselected, it is, in my view the only vessel still without a massive gash in their side and which should bed used.
    .
    The meeting on the 14th. 11.30 pm, at the united reform church in Wymondham, will revoke and recall the long gone rich landowner Ketts who in 1492 started a rebellion for being wronged, but its only an umbrella.
    Who could say that a ketts Alliance of Independents is worth than the SWP. What is important is whether they will find commonalities and can work together after they are elected, whether one rep. is led by his party dogma after the election and not his voters mandate.
    .
    I will go to this meeting to debate and or suggest a common 5/10point plan of intent, a quasi contract with voters, on offer before an election, not a pre-chewed agenda on issues. But the real mandate will come from the voters themselves, something they are concerned with on a daily basis. That means that you are available, that you can be reached on line and respond, that people can talk to you at hustings and that you make the effort to talk on the doorstep.
    .
    Never has there been a better time for Independents to get elected if they are honest. This will take like minded volunteers, time and effort, but many who frequent this blog have been through these trepidations before and know what to do next time round.
    .
    It is not all a matter of money when you have enthusiastic helpers, what is important is that you create interesting debates and meetings that are reported.. The BBC, sadly in a state of junkie dependency to the party in power on the day, addicted to the status quo, their franchise, for which they will bend their own rules, misinterpret them and or forget that they are there.
    .
    If the public broadcaster in their respective local region, does not rebel as well and undertake a fair election coverage due to the unprecedented voter apathy and the past mistakes and mismanagement of the body politic, then even this exercise will fail to get elective representation by Independents. If it takes stunts and arguments to defend your right for decent coverage, you will inevitably be in the disadvantage. This can be ameliorated with effort and manpower, if you have enough enthusiastic helpers that are with you and persuasive in their arguments, who can also listen to people, if you are a cohesive campaign that is up to date and you are in on public hustings and debates, you can sway the voters who are so pissed off with what’s led to this debacle, i.e. party politics, that an election could galvanise a large Independent voter ship.
    .
    My final plea, those who intend to make a difference should not expect an easy ride or that it will just happen. To make any inroads into elected politics takes time and effort, so the sooner such movement comes together, or Independents try to organise, the better. Like now…..

  17. I agree AW. The Respect Party does provide an alternative. And the Green Party, Clark.
    .
    There is also almost a party within the Labour party, the Socialist Campaign Group which has 14 MPs currently who choose to work within the Labour Party towards Socialist aims. This is also in decline mostly due to retirements plus the New Labour policy of lumbering parliamentary constituencies with candidates of their own (New Labour) choice.
    .
    Then there is the Socialist Party (England and Wales).
    .
    But the truth is there is nobody to vote for with a realistic chance of governing. I am one who has added to the decline. I get and read George Galloway’s newsletters but I think he and Caroline Lucas are exceptional personalities with not enough charismatic party members capable of turning either party into a threat. Neither Respect nor the Greens have the party machine to make them electable.
    .
    Also I’m not young any more and some of the spirit no longer burns in the lamp. Many MPs who would have won my support are dead, or retired. There was a time when the youth of the country had political fire. But because of all the sleaze, from all the major parties, nobody is interested in politics any more in this country. It is sad, but factual. I still vote but only to try and make a marginal difference. It is quite obvious all the major parties are unworthy of support.

  18. John Goss, yes, there are alternatives to the Big Three, but the problem remains; under the present voting rules (“First Past The Post”) a threshold of voter confidence has to be crossed, or people fear “letting the wrong lizard in”. I suspect that Galloway’s fame, and Lucas being party leader is what got each of these candidates across that threshold.
    .
    (Apologies to Komodo, who is clearly the right kind of lizard.)

  19. Alaric
    .
    Jimmy Carter.

  20. Since the expenses scandal most British people’s idea of a politician is that they are thieves, liars and cheats. Since the late eighties activists have taken the fight elsewhere and others oblivious to the demise of democracy and liberty have exhausted their mental powers predicting who will win the next X Factor contest before the final.
    .
    We have become a Coca-Cola society where large global ‘corporates’ dominate the political arena forcing us the people to shelter in the crevices of the Internet, drawing solace and relief from selfsame.

  21. Hooray. The blog is back. It has been down all afternoon. ???

  22. It’s been repeatedly crashing today. Don’t know why.

  23. Sorry folks, I’m at Nevermind’s again, and I forgot to bring my passwords with me, so I can’t investigate the problem. I did e-mail Tim, so perhaps he fixed it.

  24. ” Only in Scotland do voters have a genuine choice of a different direction, and they take it.”
    .
    No they don’t. Craig, I don’t put much faith in your political choices!!!, so far on your blog you have promoted Obama as being the change we need!!!!!!, the Lib Dems as being the change we need!!!!!!. Now its the Murdoch loving SNP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

  25. “that democracy has failed in this country”
    .
    By the way Craig, how can something that has NEVER really existed have “failed”.

  26. Why this hang up with party politics, this is the 21st. century and we are hankering for the good ol’ days?, when consecutive Governments have shafted us, when the media has played footsie with police and the non/elected Government, when corrupt practises are almost normalised.

    An alliance, yes, feasible, but a party with whips and lobbying and crap that’s wrong, NO

  27. Guest – Obomber fooled all the right-on liberals who believed that having a black man in the White House would eliminate the world’s ills. It says a lot about them and where they’re coming from. But there really is no excuse for backing Clegg.

  28. “ …’When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic’. Well, it turned out not to be the people as a whole, but 1% of them or fewer… nevertheless, the principle stands.”

    Actually the principle is completely contradicted: even though they can “vote themselves money” the people don’t. And largely because, in the USA at least, they cannot. The Constitution was set up to prevent them from doing so and, with a few very rare exceptions, they have not done so.
    The enormous electoral districts,(now 458 for 300+million) the undemocratic Senate and the power of the Courts were all part of a system designed specifically to prevent the poor from realising power. Check for example the lack of any but the skimpiest welfare and unemployment programmes for the tens of millions of Americans in need, the erosion of free educational provision and the absence of any healthcare service.

    As to your other generalisation:
    “I can’t help noticing that for the greatest part of our existence, we human beings have been ruled by tyrants or dictators.”
    You are wrong here too, most communities, not unlike those Iroqoiuan nations in eastern North America, were actually extremely democratic and their members were amazed when they learned how the French, for example, were ruled absolutely by a King. They were equally shocked by the cruelty of Europeans towards children.

  29. Giles

    I hadn’t taken in that Clegg was to the Liberals what Blair was to Labour. Stupid of me.

  30. Tom Welsh, the problem is that Benjamin Franklin lied. The US Constitution did not give us a republic. In a democratic form of government, power is vested in the hands of the people. In a republic, power is still vested in the hands of the people, but the people exercise their power through elected representatives. The US Constitution did not vest power in the people or give the people any way to exercise power through representatives. The US Constitution was a counterrevolutionary document: http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1085

    As for smoking, when a 20-year-old who has never smoked and whose parents never smoked gets lung cancer, the doctors say it must be from second-hand smoke from neighbors, ignoring the fact that the victim works with toxic chemicals and lives in a polluted city, breathing in the equivalent of two packs of cigarettes a day (only with many more toxic chemicals) just from vehicle and industrial air pollution alone. I’ve been smoking for 56 years and I live in a senior building with many other people who have been smoking for more than 50 years and have no lung or respiratory problems. Are you also a vegetarian like Hitler was, or is it only his authoritarianism, racism, and general wrong-headedness you admire?

    A representative democracy is no democracy at all When people vote to delegate their power to representatives (the power they never really had, but imagine that they have because they’re allowed to vote to give it away), they are falling for an illusion. More and more people are waking up.

  31. Giles, many USAmericans thought they were getting a Black President, but what they got was a White House Negro.

  32. It doesn’ matter, Craig. It’s the cynicism – or should I say power of acute observation – that attracts me to your writing, rather than the perennial displays of hop in the political system.

  33. I meant to say hope*. There is, of course, no character in the political system.

  34. Ok, Mark. better luck next time.

  35. Craig says: ‘Only in Scotland do voters have a genuine choice of a different direction, and they take it.’

    How true – the Scottish National Party has increased its membership to the point it is now far and away the largest political party in Scotland.
    It has the largest amount of local councillors and it has the largest amount of MSPs.
    And I am certain that after the next series of elections it will have the largest amount of MEPs.
    As for Westminster – now in Scotland there is a formal Labour/Coservative/LibDem alliance fighting for a ‘No’ vote in the Independence Referendum. This will finally draw the scales from the eyes of the habitual Labour Voters who still demonise the Tories, and this will result in the SNP being the largest party from Scotland at Westminster.
    You heard it here first.

  36. Nevermind – you are right. We need to reassess our idea of what democracy in the 21st century means.
    .
    Disatisfaction with “first past the post” elections stems from a misunderstanding about what democracy is. Most people seem to think that whoever they vote for should get elected and they cry foul when it doesn’t happen. They forget that democracy requires it to be that way – anything else would be an autocracy (or an “oligarchy of the like minded”).
    .
    The way “first past the post” works in the UK gives everyone direct access to their MP. Not to tell him/her what to do (it’s not a private autocracy!)but to have your voice heard. In the 21st century you can send emails direct to your MP at the click of a mouse.
    .
    But 21st century technology is enabling completely new forms of power – only some of them can be called democratic. Online petitions and social media are being used to put pressure on companies, institutions and governments every day. Look at the number of Government U turns in the past year – I think the fuel tax was the latest one. Last month a school girl forced her school to overturn a ban on her blogging about the quality of her school dinners. Some will say these are irrelevant and small concessions by a controlling establishment. They might have a point but it’s not as simple as that. At the moment there’s a battle over control of the power that new technology brings and governments don’t seem to have everything their own way. Look at the heavy handed efforts the US government is making to get at anyone who seems to have better grasp on the technology than they do – from Gary McKinnon and Richard O’Dwyer all the way to Julian Assange. These are signs of US government weakness not strength.
    .
    It’s not just technology. There is the influence that celebrities have. A few years ago Joanna Lumley forced the UK government to reverse its policy on residency rights for Gurkhas. Again small stuff but you need to understand how this power works in order to use it for the big stuff – democratically or not.

  37. Craig I’m so glad your back blogging.

    yeah the SNP are the largest party in Scotland.
    Are they the only party in power in the western world where the state broadcaster and every news paper bar the Sunday Herald are against them.

    I refer to the BBC’s coverage of Wimbledon as Celebrety Tennis.
    as the spend as much time showing the tennis as they do showing celebs in the R.B.

    Did anyone notice during the Murray Vs. Tsonga game that the camera hardly drifted to the royal box. That was because Nicola Sturgeon (Scotland’s Deputy First Minister (SNP))was there. I didn’t see her once on the BBC’S coverage. Job done so to say.

  38. Anne O'Nimmus

    7 Jul, 2012 - 9:25 pm

    Reduce Craig’s last para to 4 words:
    “Politics has been privatised”
    We have “Farce past the post” and an unelected second chamber.
    Today’s politics is all about tightening the regulatory ankle bracelets on individuals, especially the least among us, while untying any regulatory bonds from the 1%.
    What democracy?

  39. Red-letter day (sorry)
    .
    http://www.coia.org.uk/ts77.mp3

  40. “Guest – Obomber fooled all the right-on liberals who believed that having a black man in the White House would eliminate the world’s ills.”
    .
    Giles, wrong. There were a few that come/came on here who told Craig that Obama would be the same as Bush!. Its so strange, the Respect Party really do hold so many of the same key values as Craig, but Craig is not a member.

  41. So perhaps the answer is for all of us to move to Scotland and vote like hell for the right things. I’m game. Problem is that large bits of lovely Scotland are owned by the GICS aren’t they? Vast estates and Lord Tom Noddies leasing their landscapes to the poor bloody infantry? I might be wrong.

  42. “Vast estates and Lord Tom Noddies leasing their landscapes to the poor bloody infantry? I might be wrong.”
    .
    Don’t forget, the SNP WILL keep the monarchy. I hear their starting to talk (in a small way) about keeping Trident in Scotland if they win the independence vote!.

  43. How heartening to hear this doctor speak out. He has resigned from his position as regional director of public health in the SW.
    .
    He said: “What we’re going through now is a systematic downgrading, if not destruction, of civil society in England with a de-layering of structures and organisations and, at the same time, a huge amount of responsibility being handed to the local level, especially to local authorities, at the same time as their budgets are being cut. The abolition of regional development agencies, government offices in the regions and SHAs is all part of the same process.
    .
    “To many people that sounds great, like we’re getting rid of bureaucracy.
    ,
    “But this is a very big country and cannot be run by a very much smaller civil service in London and a huge, disparate patchwork quilt of local authorities all pulling in different directions.”
    .
    According to the article, Dr Scally views the creation of the new NHS Commissioning Board, which will oversee the local GP-led commissioning groups, as part of “another worrying trend”: the centralisation of power in the hands of political appointees.
    .
    /..

    Health boss resigns to fight NHS reforms Saturday,
    July 07, 2012 Western Morning News
    http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Health-boss-resigns-fight-NHS-reforms/story-16496943-detail/story.html

  44. Independent Air

    8 Jul, 2012 - 12:49 am

    Guest, or is that Alan Campbell again. It is not in the SNPs gift to decide to ‘keep’ the monarchy or Trident, those are matters for the Scottish people to decide after Independence without interference from Westminster, or the London Labour, Tory and Liberal Democrat Friends of Bankers, the wasters, crooks and Bliars. You can’t just turn out WMD on day one, time will be allowed for their smooth removal and relocation somewhere on the Thames, or they’ll be returned to their US owners from whom we only rent them, giving the UK warmongers and bullies bragging rights and a chance to polish them now and again, but their targetting is under US control. This isn’t an independent deterrent, it is the US making Scotland target number one in any concievable superpower confrontation, their kit and us daft enough to pay them for the dubious privilege and place ourselves in harm’s way as human shields.

    Keep Blogging Craig, in this alone you are an inspiration, more power to your elbow.

  45. An interesting and refreshing audit, not because its conclusions are a big surprise, but because it is willing to discuss an issue which threatens the status quo. It could also look at the media’s role, or lack thereof, in democracy.

  46. Less democracy – and – more war:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8VobKzf1lM

  47. Yes,.Andy Murray…the fix is in…Jubilee and Olympic year…the feel good factor must soar…

    Bit like V.Wade in 77,another Jubilee year..

    And another Dunblane narrative gets shunted down the memory-hole…

    Win-win establishment scene.

  48. “Guest, or is that Alan Campbell”
    .
    No, I am not Alan Campbell, I already know about Trident!. As for the “monarchy or Trident” bit, I didn’t know it was on the agenda for the scottish people to get a vote on them as seperate issues from the SNP, Tories, NuLabour, Lib Dems. I will tell you this, if Scotland votes for independence, there will be an election as I understand, the winner will be NuLabour or SNP. Mark my words…It will make no differance as to who wins between the two, there is no more then a tissue paper of differance between them, sadly, you will find this out in time!. sadly, this SNP is NOT the SNP of old.
    .
    Otherwise Independent Air, you have put on a very good post.
    .

    “Norman Lamb MP, ATOS Healthcare & UNUM Insurance”
    .
    http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?id=6491#newspost

  49. For old smokers, mix no more than 1 part rolling tobacco with 5 parts half dried common Nettle. This is a tasty and light mixture for lunge and minde. The smallest pinch of tobacco is needed in a mix to satisfy any nicotene craving and the strength of cravings can fade quickly.
    Young nettles are ideal as the base leaf, older flowering leaves can have a noticeable ‘daydreamy’ hit but young ones are transiently subtle. Dry them only until leathery, a couple of hours on a warm device does the trick. Bramble leaves can be added being quite mild yet a little woody and sweet. Rose leaves are similar to bramble except with a hint of rose instead of berry. Rose petals can be soporific, however except for tobacco, these plants are healthy to consume and also perfect for a refreshing Tea. Live well while ye may.

  50. I’m not surprised membership in political parties has fallen, after having seen what Labour morphed into under Blair.Pro War and market oriented.No one knows what they stand for anymore.
    Scotland does have an alternative for voters but is not yet democratic. We do vote, but Conservatives rule.Prior to the Scottish Parliament we had 300 years without much of a say at all.
    Trident is expensive and accident prone as the residents around Faslane would tell you. Many unreported stories of Subs being brought back to base in the middle of the night.This so called deterrent is a major threat to the country and we have no defense against it.
    I hope an independent Scotland could send it south, but I wont be holding my breath.

  51. wouldn’t it be good if we could decide a percentage of the voters required to make an election legal?

    some say the US will have a very low turnout this year. how about u need at least 40% of eligible voters voting for the result to count?

    in australia, where it is mandatory to at least turn up at the polling booths and have your name crossed off – it’s not mandatory to actually vote, plus u can vote informally as i do – there is another challenge to the mandatory aspect of this, and i personally hope the gentleman wins his case.

    american comedian george carlin once said:

    “I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now some people like to twist that around. They say, ‘If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain,’ but where’s the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You voted them in. You caused the problem. You have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote–who did not even leave the house on Election Day–am in no way responsible for what these politicians have done and have every right to complain about the mess that you created.”

  52. Diabloandco

    8 Jul, 2012 - 8:36 am

    “No they don’t. Craig, I don’t put much faith in your political choices!!!, so far on your blog you have promoted Obama as being the change we need!!!!!!, the Lib Dems as being the change we need!!!!!!. Now its the Murdoch loving SNP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.”

    Hysterical piffle and ordure.

    Murdoch loving SNP?
    Blair? Cameron?

    Glad to see you back Craig – I was a tad anxious.

  53. ‘Yes,.Andy Murray…the fix is in…Jubilee and Olympic year…the feel good factor must soar…

    Bit like V.Wade in 77,another Jubilee year..

    And another Dunblane narrative gets shunted down the memory-hole…

    Win-win establishment scene.’

    .
    Yes indeed. A grand diversion for the troubled nation. Watch out for the Union Jacks, the military presence and recognition, Cameron and maybe Her Maj in the royal box. All under the capable hands of the mistress of ceremonies Ms Sue Barker and the BBC. The soaring Sun on Sunday have given away Come On Andy paper hats.
    .
    PS Wikipedia have the young Andy at the scene of the Dunblane massacre. His mum used to give Hamilton lifts. The mind boggles.
    .
    And praise God for that £100 million centre court roof. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/9381145/Is-the-Centre-Court-roof-the-real-star-of-Wimbledon-2012.html
    .
    What piffle.

  54. Have heard it all now. Cameron has the Saltire flag flying above No 10. What a dreadful and slippery type he is.

  55. “A grand diversion for the troubled nation”.

    .
    It’s all coming together now, Mary – Virginia Wade in ’77, 7/7, Dunblane, Hamilton lifts, Andy Murray (known Zionist) – £100m roof to protect Cameron and Her Maj from a massive false-flag dirty bomb?

    .
    The Mind Boggles.

  56. “Declining Democracy”
    .
    “Julian Assange In Conversation With John Pilger”
    .
    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/julian-assange-in-conversation-with-john-pilger/

  57. @ Giles
    He who laughs last, laughs longest and btw, keep up, it’s July 8th today.

  58. “Hysterical piffle and ordure.
    Murdoch loving SNP?”
    .
    http://www.firmmagazine.com/features/1152/Wag_the_dog.html

  59. craig,
    Why do you think Charlie Kennedy was ousted?
    ,
    These bastards can run simulations and know their ballot box stuffing and vote rigging has limits, and despite this there could be upset results emerging, hence the preventative ouster.

  60. “It is no wonder that they all have the same programme of promoting the interests of that elite.”

    … and who is that elite?

    If one doesn’t have the courage of his convictions to ask the right question, one can’t expect the right answer or any answer at all: http://ditwatis.blogspot.be/

  61. In the hour long build up at Wimbledon, some of which I have been looking at, there was a very strange graphic used which showed the two protagonists’ progress through the tournament. An imaginary Tube map was used and each match was a stop on the line, repeated for each player, and intercut with film of tube trains, lines and stations. Now why would the State Broadcaster do this?
    .
    Interviews with the celebs attending, Dr Who’s Matt Smith, Beckham, has beens like Henman, etc etc
    .

    Ms Barker is coping manfully. The roof’s open, it’s raining, the covers are on, what will happen next? Now the sun is shining. Only a few minutes to go…
    .

    Remember, the key words are BRITISH and SUCCESS.

  62. still we are whining and pointing fingers and lamenting, our kids can’t find work and seek solace in roughing it, diversions into oblivion. banks are arguing the toss over what control they could possibly live with and not a single political party, bar the Greens to some incomplete extend, have any coherent policies. All have dogma /celebrity ridden pieces of rubber on offer, wanting to meddle with education, just as any party would, once again interrupting universities and schools with rigmarole change, a different set of moral guidance applied, pictures taken with children, ahhhh…
    .
    And we wonder why education is in the dumps…they have just about time for breathing before another electioneering politician uses education to set him/herself above the moral majority and screws continuity of the curriculum, routine timetables and set subjects for children and the confidence in teachers and local education boards by bombarding them with copy after copy of policy guidelines and changes.

    Lets get back on subject, what if we ignore the right to vote?

    what if each constituency has a randomly selected representative? s/he couldn’t do much more wrong than the current lot. If 70% don’t vote and I agree with Oddie, there should be a threshold of at least 50%^, then why not get rid of political party’s, election expenses and false promises, but most important, CORRUPTION at every level?
    You can refuse the sumptuous salary, there’ll be no pension rights or perks after you served your four years and there will be no more re-elections, further limiting compromise and corruption from dwelling at the centre of Government.
    The PM can be selected by the house and a period of public hustings.

    I’m sure that this solution will be rejected by all the apparatchiks who sucker party politics and who have their fingers sticky from some vested pie-crust’s.
    Equally the wannabe emperors who use politics as a springboard into high finance industry and corporate shenanigans.
    .
    The solution would be non ageist, it unfortunately can’t comply with gender balance but every four years this could be switched by pulling random national insurance numbers until one selected a woman. The number would not conform to any party political line unless the person had been previously engaged in it. I would be prepared to take that chance, because the groups that will inebvitably form in the House are mopst likely organise around issues’as much as around personalities that can organise.

    How this could also relate to the higher echelons of the civil service presented with the challenge of making it work, is something to be worked out.

    So its either we turn people on to vote for a sensible alternative, or we stick our heads in the sand, collectively, wait for Godot and Gomorrah.
    Don’t mind if I opt out, I’ll try and keep my backside upright.

    The occasional soothing noise from one or other party does not do it any more, people are turned off and politicians don’t give a hoot if they are selected by a minority.
    Ketts Alliance of Independents is one alternative, there are others…

  63. “Trident is expensive and accident prone”
    .
    “There have been 266 fires on nuclear submarines in the past 25 years, the Ministry of Defence has revealed.”
    .
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18761040

  64. @ Lord Palmerston,
    “Good riddance to democracy. The best government is through a limited
    franchise, such as we had from the middle ages through to the horribly
    mistaken reforms about a century ago that brought us universal
    suffrage.
    The common man (or woman), it turns out, is utterly unfit to be
    entrusted with the vote. Far better to take one’s chances with
    government by an aristocratic elite than by sleazy populists elected
    by fools.
    But as our electorate is unlikely to vote for their own
    disenfranchisement, our descent towards popular fascism is going to
    continue.”
    .
    So – why invert the problem? Surely if one accepts that the economic relationships between money and elected officials has a corrupting influence, then this along with other structural issues within the political system account for the apathy occurring when people see and feel that their true interests are not being served.
    Put the Iraq war or Afghan war to the test of a referendum and the result will show you that not only aren’t a lot people not fools, but such a referendum would demonstrate that their best interests are neither being served nor reflected by the elected politicians in their policies. It is more banking and financial interests which have a strangle hold on national British politics than do the interests or voices of ordinary people comprising the majority.
    Apathy stems from a perception that politically it does not matter much who gets elected. The structural arrangements of the main parties make it hard to impossible for viable alternatives to emerge into the mainstream political process – with any realistic chance of becoming the elected government.

  65. I bet Agent Cameron and his side kicks Clegg and Johnson wish they had not bothered. Similarly Chief of the General Staff David Richards. WTF was he doing there? To check on the military stewards’ performance? Our new Princess Pippa was in the front row too.
    .
    PS It’s all the roof’s fault! Federer is used to playing indoors.

  66. Lord Palmerston

    8 Jul, 2012 - 6:52 pm

    Courtney Barnett:
    .
    President Bush led his country to war against Iraq on false pretences
    and was re-elected in 2004.
    .
    Prime Minister Blair led his country to war against Iraq on false
    pretences and was re-elected in 2005.
    .
    The bar is not a high one: avoiding mass-murder is an undemanding
    standard to expect of one’s government. Yet it was not demanded by
    the electorate in either of the two countries.

  67. Remember, the key words are BRITISH and SUCCESS.

  68. Yes Lord Palmerston I have never understood why the electorates put them back in although the likes of Tony Benn STWC etc did not help.
    .
    He picked up the phones to canvas for Blair in 2005.
    .
    My comment on this blog {http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/01/in_distinguishe/}
    .
    mary 8 Jan, 2009 – 9:58 pm
    Not totally distinguished company. It’s a pity Benn did not support the move to have Blair arraigned as a war criminal. He also canvassed on the phone for Blair in the last election. He is just a phony and a windbag.

    ‘A letter was signed by over 4000 people, including this author, which sought the arraignment of Blair and his cabal for war crimes. It was addressed to Kofi Annan and headed by Tony Benn, president of STWC. A meeting to make a final decision is recorded thus in Tony’s new diary:-
    .
    ‘Lindsey German and Nicholas Wood came to see me about the next stage in the campaign on the war crime question, about how we could advance the cause of the letter. There’s been no coverage in the press, although Kofi Annan has replied. We went on to discuss the whole question really of whether we were demanding a war crimes tribunal. My view is that you shouldn’t do that. I think it’s a complete waste of effort trying to put Blair and Bush on trial : (a) it won’t happen; (b) it’s so negative: ( c) it’s all about personalities.’ –
    .
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va…

  69. Link s/be
    War and Principle in Britain
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8141

  70. The sky was obviously not the limit for Andy Murray despite Agent Cameron’s training match in the State Dining Room. Maybe it was that awful Wimbledon Rolex clock that further boosted Federer’s pattern of impeccable timing.

  71. Thank-you Guest for the link to the UN Report of the Houla massacre. The implosion of the story was inevitable considering it was to be the casus belli for a planned invasion by US and NATO according to my own sources.
    .
    As I reported here after this black-hearted, cruel and totally noxious event, the terrorists attacked Syrian army road-blocks just outside Houla and then moved into the town to draw army fire into populated areas. The terrorists followed a premeditated plan to massacre families, take pictures for media coverage while Syrian army reinforcements engaged in a battle within the precincts of the town. The terror atrocities were repackaged in the Western and Arab media as the heinous, barbarous work of the regime.
    .
    Shame on the British press and the BBC. If I had the resources and contacts I would sue you bastards in a court of law with compelling evidence.

  72. These deaths have occurred just two days after La Belle Clinton visited Kabul and anointed Afghanistan as an Non Nato ally of the USA. She then went on to Tokyo and bullied various countries including the UK, Japan and Germany, to pledge a $16 billion package of aid for Afghanistan.
    .
    8 July 2012 Last updated at 20:15
    Afghanistan: Nato soldiers killed in roadside bomb
    A roadside bomb in eastern Afghanistan has killed six Nato service members, the Western alliance has announced. A statement did not give details of the nationalities of those killed.
    .
    The incident came as donors meeting in Japan pledged to give Afghanistan $16bn (£10.3bn) in civilian aid over four years, including the period during which foreign troops are to pull out.
    .
    Violence in the country has recently spiked. At least 14 civilians were killed on Sunday alone.
    .

  73. Mark Golding
    .
    Thanks for the thanks. Yes, we know how they work, we didn’t need to know about the UN report, we already knew from years of experancies how evil works.

  74. I do not know how true this is, but what I heard on the radio yesterday shocked and saddened me.

    Apparently,Afghanistan is now eligible for all kinds of goodies (best friend status) if they agree to buy more bombs and bullets from the world’s bully. How can this be?

    Please someone tell me I misheard/misunderstood.

    Lord in your mercy ….

  75. Mark This is how Richard Colebourn, BBC News Middle East, views the ME.
    .

    A revealing insight from Richard Coleborne, BBC News Middle East producer:
    .
    ‘Envious of colleagues covering elections in ‪#Egypt‬ ‪#Libya‬ whilst some of us slog away on more depressing unfinished revolutions ‪#Syria’
    .
    https://twitter.com/rcolebourn/status/221526019843166209
    ,
    Here note that he has been at the BBC for 11 years pumping out the poison. Note also the PPE BA from Oxford, that nursery so often noted of servants of the evil empire.
    {http://lb.linkedin.com/pub/richard-colebourn/5/4/84}

  76. both parties are of the same beast,the ESTABLISHMENT,what is there to say..
    there is only two ways to go –
    1st..British Constitution Group,…. this party for a very long time, has been
    warning the British public that their rights and freedoms under Common Law and the Constitution are being stripped away and replaced by a dictatorship…
    2nd- slavery & death…-you choose…

  77. Scouse Billy

    8 Jul, 2012 - 10:55 pm

    Mary, you will find that Oxford PPE (esp. the Bullingdon types) features in the research of Abeldanger (Captain Sherlock).
    .
    Don’t know if you watched their documentary but it is recommended given Craig’s post – as Guest pointed out, this country has never had democracy (merely the illusion of democracy).
    .
    Craig should watch it too:
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS0LQedWGb8
    .
    P.S. Clark, the Green Party? – Eugenics in the guise of environmentalism.

  78. @Mary,

    “Yes Lord Palmerston I have never understood why the electorates put them back in although the likes of Tony Benn STWC etc did not help.”

    There is mainly duopoly running British politics. Third parties are marginal – but as now see can be a power balancer. Doesn’t really change what Plamerston observed. So sad.

  79. it will come

    9 Jul, 2012 - 4:37 am

    At sometime the worm will turn. When it does have your hard hats ready because it will be nasty.

  80. alan campbell

    9 Jul, 2012 - 6:31 am

    Quite right, Craig. And I do hope you’ll now avoid placing your trust in the hands of Dirty Digger/Trumpster crony Salmond and the SNP and potentially embarrassing yourself as you did with your pre and post-election dalliance with the Lib Dems.

  81. Eugenics, Scouse Billy? How come?

  82. Whilst our ‘leaders’ were wasting away a few hours at Wimbledon yesterday afternoon {http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/08/article-2170424-13FAB92C000005DC-987_634x568.jpg} this is the terrible state of affairs that some of our fellow citizens are facing.
    .
    Unemployed worker sets himself on fire outside UK Jobcentre
    7 July 2012
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/immo-j07.shtml
    .
    On June 29, a 48-year-old man tied himself to the railings outside Selly Oak Jobcentre in Birmingham, England, dousing himself with fuel and setting himself alight. He was protesting not receiving his benefit payment.
    .
    This horrific event is the direct outcome of the austerity measures implemented by the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition.
    /..

  83. Anyone wanting power anywhere with a pretence of democracy needs to collude with at least part of the media to some extent. Hence Salmond’s moves towards Murdoch: the SNP’s own publications do not have the mass distribution and are obviously biased in favour of the cause. You can’t expect people to vote for you if they don’t at least think they know what you’re doing. And if you don’t figure in the mainstream.
    .
    As we have seen, the establishment and the press are closely entwined: personally I think Salmond pulled off something of a coup in stealing Murdoch’s (temporary, unreliable, but useful) allegiance from the other Scottish parties. Not tactful, not particularly moral, but practical…rather like Salmond himself. He’s a realist-something in short supply in politics at the moment.
    .
    I see the SNP as a model of what might be done more generally. Mind you, lacking a clear cause, a leader whom people will follow, and media support, it will be a longer struggle than even the SNP’s patient 60-year escalation of the ante.

  84. Clear cause:
    How about ending the party system? I don’t want an MP who walks through the lobby baaaing obediently as directed by a bunch of other MP’s who don’t represent me and I didn’t vote for. Simple issue, to which all the rest can be attached.
    A leader: If, due to being all communal and democratic, you don’t appoint one, one will inevitably emerge. He/she may very well be worse than an appointed one. See under Stalin.
    Media support: Or media coverage. First obtained by audacious and newsworthy actions. Not by bitching on CiF. See under Stone of Scone.

  85. P.S. Clark, the Green Party? – Eugenics in the guise of environmentalism.

    Care to elucidate this claim, scouser, cause it sounds like you been listening to something weird, how about showing us were it says this in the MFSS.

  86. Mary, I really feel for that young man who set fire to himself. To understand what he was going through we need to be in a similar situation. My wider fears are that this is the tip of the iceberg.
    .
    Cameron, the rich public-school educated autocrat, knew exactly what he was doing with his ‘Big Society’ philosophy. He was preparing people to work for nothing. Before his ‘Big Society’ ideal I used to pick up litter, bags of it. I would even have given my time to help clear the area of the River Cole near where I live from the pernicious and invasive import, Japanese Knotweed, but not since Cameron’s pay-free initiatives. People could be off the unemployment register with a paid wage for doing this. Likewise with repairing the roads, which are in a dreadful condition. I keep harping on about Keynesian economics but it is the only way out of the economic mess and would provide disaffected young people with hope who might otherwise see their only escape in taking personal action against themselves, with petrol and matches.

  87. Nothing like coming home to a real fire !!!
    Salmond is 100% right for wanting this time bomb removed.
    1 million people live only 20 miles from Faslane.
    Nuclear waepons have no place in a civilised society.

    http://forargyll.com/2012/07/was-the-major-submarine-fire-on-a-docked-uk-submarine-at-faslane/
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9384766/Nuclear-submarines-hit-by-more-than-200-fires-in-the-past-25-years.html#

  88. Sympathetic as I am to the Keynes solution to depressions, it occurs to me that it still has to be paid for somewhere down the line…if the pre-existing structures and ethics remain, and in tha absence of any commitment to actually producing anything of value, re-inflating a financial bubble is the most politically attractive way of doing this. We need to remember that Oxford PPE’s are not taught anything else.

    Lacking a major war (which either enforces military production at the bleeding edge of technology, or blows up outdated production centres, enforcing their updating when peace returns), I don’t see how we can avoid a return to the boom-bust bubble economics demanded by financiers.

  89. Komodo
    .
    There is much more to it then you state at “9 Jul, 2012 – 8:49 am”. I think the SNP have over the years been infiltrated by opportunists and carpetbaggers, it mirrors what has happened to the Labour party. I am for scottish independence, but, I know it will just turn out to another right wing thiefdom, if it ever comes to pass!.

  90. Boris Johnson (in the photo linked to earlier) hoping to bask in the reflected glory of a Murray win, writes this bilge in the Torygraph. He gets paid for doing so in spades.
    .
    ‘After being elected Mayor, he announced that he would be resuming his weekly column for The Daily Telegraph. The Guardian reported that he had agreed a £250,000 annual salary for doing so. The report added that he will donate £25,000 each towards two scholarships: one for students of Journalism, and the other for the teaching of Classics.[26]’ Wikipedia
    .
    Stop bashing the bankers – we have no future without them
    Wrongdoers must be punished, but the City’s jobs and investment are simply irreplaceable, argues Boris Johnson.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/9385743/Stop-bashing-the-bankers-we-have-no-future-without-them.html

  91. Yes John, I agree with what you say. I used to do jobs around the neighbourhood such as collecting litter, clearing gullies and drains in the road, sweeping the pavement etc but now do not bother. Unfortunately, there is nobody employed by the council to do these jobs. Work is outsourced so that a mechanical drain clearing machine might appear once or twice a year. Similarly, the pavements are cleaned once a year in the autumn. The litter collects in the gutters.
    .
    I would like to put Boris, those nasty pieces of work Iain Duncan Smith, Francis Maude and Grant Shapps et al + Cameron and Clegg on the front desks in Job Centres for a few weeks so see how they cope with the desperate people.
    .
    Did you spot this directive sent to the front line? Note the Orwellian use of the word ‘customers’.

    .
    UK: Official guidelines to deal with suicide by the jobless
    By Robert Stevens
    18 May 2011
    The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has issued official guidance on how to deal with a claimant who threatens suicide.
    .
    The guidelines were issued last month and obtained by the Guardian newspaper from a senior Jobcentre employee. The need for such a six-point plan graphically indicates the impact of the government’s austerity measures on the most vulnerable.
    .
    The “new policy for all DWP businesses to help them manage suicide and self-harm declarations from customers” states:
    .
    “Some customers may say they intend to self-harm or kill themselves as a threat or a tactic to ‘persuade’, others will mean it. It is very hard to distinguish between the two … For this reason, all declarations must be taken seriously.”
    .
    /..
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/suic-m18.shtml

  92. I’d just like to emphasise points made by Giles and Fedup.
    .
    Tony Blair came to power after the untimely (and unexpected) death of John Smith, followed by the the anti-sleaze hysteria whipped up by the media against the Tories. Given Blair’s background, I’d rate him as a trojan-horse politician: placed into the system by well-heeled “sponsors”, who then try to manoeuvre their man into important positions. Unfortunately, I suspect the system is full of such trojan horses.
    .
    Nick Clegg is very likely another trojan-horse politician. Just look at his education background. He is ideal “Atlantic Bridge”/”Common Purpose”/Bilderberger material. (Of course, he’ll be “sponsored” by a Bilderberger, not one of them.) Charles Kennedy’s drink problem was not, to my knowledge, a new phenomenon, so the shock-horror revelation in the media is suspicious. After Menzies Campbell’s stop-gap leadership, Clegg appeared out of the mists to become the new LibDem leader.
    .
    And how on earth did the Tories choose Cameron? Out of a list of strong candidates, they chose him. I suspect he is probably eminently controllable. Just a placeholder figurehead.
    .
    The trojans control the system. They are self-perpetuating and self-appointing. Of course, it was ever thus but I suspect that power has now simply moved to a different elite clique.
    .
    Just another reason why our so-called democratic system is unlikely to change from within.

  93. Paul Tucker, said to become a shoe-in for King, will appear before the Treasury Select Committee at 4.30pm today. More theatre for the people.
    .
    Little about him on Wikipedia and this preamble on his BoE biography is rather hazy I think you will agree.
    .
    From 1980-1989 Paul Tucker worked as a banking supervisor; a corporate financier at a merchant bank; and on projects to reform the Hong Kong securities markets and regulatory system following the 1987 crash, and then the UK’s wholesale payments system, leading to the introduction of real-time gross settlement.
    .
    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/Pages/people/biographies/tucker.aspx

  94. Guest- No doubt. “This is hell nor are we out of it”….but without Salmond the SNP would still be picking up one or two constituencies, and outgunned even by the Liberals. Look what happened when Swinney took over for a while. Salmond may have reasoned that what was good for the SNP was good for him and propelled the party into the credible zone in order to further his own chances. But I doubt it. I think he rose to the challenge for its own sake.
    .
    Possibly the only reason the Liberals held onto their peripheral seats (W. Country, Scotland) for so long was that they tended to field rather good constituency MP’s, incidentally. While the Libs had no say in Parliament, these acted effectively as independents. Food for thought, there.

  95. How about this grouping of the usual suspects? Don’t much like the sound of it. Mathewson in particular, the ex CEO and then chairman of failed and bailed out RBS.
    {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mathewson}
    There are even connections to property development and the BBC in the list.
    .
    Yes campaign appoints board of advisers
    Sunday 08 July 2012 by Rory MacKinnon, Scotland desk
    .
    Pro-independence group Yes Scotland announced today that it had appointed a board of advisers.
    .
    In a bid to pull more people into the SNP-led campaign, the group said it had tapped retired independent MP and MSP Dennis Canavan to head the group, with former RBS chairman Sir Geore Mathewson as honorary vice-president.
    .
    Mr Canavan, who led the original push for a Scottish parliament, will be joined by, among others, SNP Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, property tycoon Dan MacDonald, and solicitor Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh, who was part of last year’s McCormac review which recommended that the Scottish government squeeze teachers.
    .
    Yes Scotland’s chairman Blair Jenkins, a former BBC Scotland executive, said the group reflected a “broad church” and would help shape the campaign’s tone and content.
    .
    He also said he hopes to see a Scottish Green Party member join the group after its October conference.
    .
    The Greens have voiced support for greater powers for Scotland but suspended plans to join the Yes Scotland campaign last month over fears the party’s own arguments for devolution would be sidelined.
    .
    A referendum on Scotland’s future – whether a status quo or with new fiscal powers under a “devo-max” arrangement – is expected in 2014.
    .
    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/121175

  96. Komodo, I did a “back of an envelope” reckoning last night. If a constituency has 100,000 voters, and voters are prepared to listen to pre-election campaigning for, say, a month before an election, any given candidate can spend only about ten seconds talking personally to each voter, including travelling time.
    .
    My record probably sounds stuck, but a big part of the democracy problem is simply structural. To reach a large enough proportion of the voters, a candidate has to use some form of mass-media. Sound bites, party lines and clichés will inevitably prevail over reasoned argument.
    .
    Not all things scale well; a human 100 metres tall would crush its own bone structure. Democracy needs extra layers so that electoral units can be smaller. My guess is that the size of electoral units should be capped at about 1000 voters.

  97. Komodo
    .
    Forget the leaders of political parties, they can’t function without the support of their parties!!!. These are not political parties with somekind of ideological well meaning intent, these are groups of self-serving individuals who come together for the purpose of their own self-enrichment, by gaining government they can get more for themselves, they do well in opposition, indeed, it has to be stated, the whole system is so rigged the tories always get the biggest slice of the cake in government or out!!!. Look at the Lib Dems thinking liberal Simon Hughes, morphed overnight to the neocons (begrudgingly) supporting Simon Hughes, in fact he turned out to be…I know which side my bread is buttered on Simon Hughes!!!. All peas in a pod.

  98. Therefore, Guest….no parties, eh? OBVIOUSLY a parcel of rogues in the nation have attached themselves to the SNP (or any group they think will promote their interests). No need to labour the point. It’s what rogues do. Come to that, isn’t it what you’d do? It’s certainly what I’d do if I had the means.
    .
    What interests me is how the SNP got to the size of support base where the wrong kind of lizard queues up to do it favours. And would it be possible to interest the public dahn sahf in a non-party democracy using similar means? Only if it can clearly be shown to be in the public’s best interest, is the answer. Which means propaganda, which means money. Therefore I am afraid a few ideals will probably have to be abandoned, with the best will in the world.

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