Shootings in France

by craig on September 6, 2012 10:45 pm in Uncategorized

Let me be upfront: none of my usual contacts, so far, has any knowledge about the very clinical murders in France of the Iraqi origin British Hilli family. I have seen various internet reports of the links of Mr Hilli to the defence industry and that the French cyclist victim was linked to the nuclear industry. I am not immediately concerned that the other cyclist who raised the alarm was ex-RAF; had that fact been sinister, it would have been hidden or he might not have raised the alarm at all.

In short, I really do not know what is happening here and I don’t think normal hierarchies within British security agencies know either. It may be genuinely random, or not. I am not posting to speculate or to spread knowledge, but because unless I do post, commenters will derail other threads to discuss this. Should I discover anything, I will let you know. But we may well never know; we still don’t really know who killed JFK, or Hilda Murrell. There is always an answer, but it is not always known to the public.

No excuse can justify the failure to identify and help the poor little girl who was still alive in the bottom of the car. Discovering if anybody was alive in the car should have outweighed every other consideration for the emergency services. Protocols for the dead will not help them much, whatever they may achieve for abstract justice. The living are easier to serve well, and this was a gross failure.

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  1. friendly phil

    6 Sep, 2012 - 11:13 pm

    The foolish Hollande is reportedly sending heavy weapons to escalate the fighting in Syria. I doubt this little bit of the US-imagined Middle East cropping up on his own doorstep will give him pause. He doesn’t have the imagination.
    Here’s a video appeal to President Obama, in English, by a Syrian priest. Worth watching.

  2. @Craig – Dig the deft suggestion that there are both normal and non-normal hierarchies within Brit security agencies!

    David Cornwell aka John Le Carré suggests there’s a committee in SIS that only includes those believed to be immune from Playing the Sieve to Tel Aviv, but I think that may be wishful thinking on his part.

    As for not playing the sieve to Langley, surely that’s impossible when the head of the CIA’s London Station attends the weekly JIC meetings. I mean where would people even talk to each other?

  3. @ Craig,

    ” we still don’t really know who killed JFK, or Hilda Murrell.”

    And you might add:-

    – or Dr. Kelly

    – or Princess D…

    and more.

  4. If the queen went to Fort Monckton before she flew up to Balmoral, as is alleged, that would give the game away a bit, though.

  5. @N_
    What is Fort Monckton?

  6. This comes from the Mail:

    ‘Last night Philip Murphy, a neighbour in the wealthy village of Claygate, Surrey, recalled how police asked if they could use his driveway to spy on the massacre victims’ mock-Tudor house.

    The retired finance director said: ‘I watched them from the window and they were watching Mr Al-Hilli and his brother.

    ‘I thought they were from Special Branch. They would sit there all day in their parked car just looking at the house.

    ‘When Mr Al-Hilli came out and drove off, they would follow him. It was all very odd. I never told the family they were being watched.’

    The surveillance happened as the invasion of Iraq by US and British forces began in March 2003.’

    Seems as though he knew something.

  7. The Daily Mail has been doing some amateur sleuthing about Saad Al Hilli:

    For what that is worth, here are some of the spook related claims:

    Engineer Saad Al-Hilli, 50, was born in Iraq and was put under Special Branch surveillance during the second Gulf War.

    It is understood that Mr Al-Hilli has been known to British intelligence officials for around 20 years.

    In 2003, during the U.S. and British invasion of Iraq, officers working with the intelligence services mounted a surveillance operation on his home for several weeks, a neighbour who hosted them told the Mail.

    Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday.

    They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car’s owner was confirmed. According to the French TV station Demain, locals described embassy staff as being ‘military type’ and numbering around 20.

    One neighbour said of Mr Hilli: ‘He’s not Mr Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. I doubt the establishment wanted to get rid of him.’

    Neighbours said he was grappling with a ‘problem’ and went on holiday despite Zainab missing the start of the school term;

    A friend of Mr Al-Hilli spoke of a rumbling inheritance dispute within the family;

    He was company secretary of a Swindon-based aerial photography company, AMS 1087 Ltd

  8. Ruth: They could have been watching everyone with Iraqi origins. A friend (originally from Iraq) felt that he was under surveillance, and the head of the establishment he worked for said that he’d been questioned about him. That’s just par for the course if your not quite “one of us” in this miserable country, not much should be read into that alone.

    I wondered if it was more of this muscular French nationalism, since white-nationalist terrorists activities go very under-reported these days. They only kill at random usually, this might have been something more organised.

  9. Craig,

    If “RAF cyclist” came across a badly wounded, but still alive girl. he may have had no personal moral option other than to get involved. Maybe if all had been dead at scene he cold have just vanished. Just a line of thought. Maybe he was just there by random chance as you think likely.

    The Press hasn’t yet managed to track this guy down yet (or even name him) as far as I can see. The Prosecutor said directly to the BBC, in a live interview, this “RAF cyclist” undoubtedly saved the little girl’s life.

  10. I copied the few commments on the indymedia site, earlier, just after the DA-notice comment from ‘Manchester based Journalist’, but not including the comment of 15:12 quoted by Anon here, concerning General Yossi Ben Hanan (chief of defence at Paris Israeli embassy) picking up three unknown others in helicopter at Chambrey Airport (close to the scene).

    His company

    06.09.2012 13:36
    He was set up by Mi6 in 2007 in a front company called AMS1087 which did aircraft based photography. They were based at the Delta office park in Wiltshire which is built on part of the old ‘Turnstile’ nuclear Command and Control bunker and is still owned by the MoD. He was loaned RAF trainer aircraft at no cost to help him get established as well as pilots and because of these advantages his company originally thrived however once he started to visit Iran in late 2010 he lost a lot of (MoD supplied) private contracts and the business almost collapsed.

    It is interesting that they let him wander around France with no protection even though they knew he was an Israeli “sikul memukad” or high profile target. A deserted country road would have been ideal for the Israeli kill team sent after him.

    Looks like he either outlived his usefulness or went ‘rogue’

    The cyclist who found the body was an RAF airman !!!

    06.09.2012 13:48
    What an amazing coincidence that the first person on the scene was a member of the RAF Regiment (the Air Force army branch) who just had to be passing on his bike !!!

    British Embassy sends twenty person team to crime scene

    06.09.2012 14:05
    In an unprecedented action the British Embassy in Paris has sent a twenty person team to the crime scene headed by Kara Owen the deputy British ambassador. According to local TV station ‘Demain’ people describe the British Embassy staff as being “military type”.

    There is developing a cover up of massive proportions to protect Israel.

    Remember this day
    Looks like they were attempting to run

    06.09.2012 14:27
    The local police (before they were shut up) said that the family had multiple passports including British, Iraqi, Swedish and UAE. It seems they were travelling cross country perhaps back to Iraq where they would feel safe .

    Defence Advisory Notice is in effect here

    06.09.2012 14:41
    Today at 0750 we received information that a Defence Advisory Notice or ‘D Notice’ was in effect with regard to certain facts about this story.

    No mention of his links to the Security Services
    No mention of his links to Iran
    No mention of his links to nuclear weapons research
    No speculation regarding Israel involvement in the killing

    The only place you are going to read about the real facts of this story are on sites like Indymedia.

    Manchester based Journalist

  11. It seems is redirecting to a bogus page -news blackout is international, or it’s down.

  12. @ Cryptonym,

    I noticed the same thing.

    It could be just some sort of glitch – or – some type of 9/11 shit about to burst again.
    Who knows?

  13. It is I only

    7 Sep, 2012 - 3:28 am

    I’m sure that it wasn’t MI5/MI6, but a lone right-wing nut, white supremacist.
    It could have been maybe as well Putin? Or Ahmenijad? Maybe Assad?
    Well, I’m sure that it wasn’t Osama ben Laden. He’s been killed by the brave heroic Obomba!

  14. reading reports now. cnn say 7yr old girl was placed in a medical coma because her injuries were so bad. but bbc says she was stable. reports say she was walkin towards the car at one point. weird that she was outside the car in the first place.

  15. only mention of that surname i can find in the cablegate is here –

    but different person. maybe could see if related. name on cable is Dr. Muhaned Kareem Al-Hilli (Chief, Chemical
    Department, NMD),

  16. PPS. the above cable is concerning meetings with the iraqis regarding chemical weapons. could be entirely unrelated of course. just in process of research.

    cable details how iraq was frustrated by kurdistan regional gov by obfuscating checks on industry there.

    then there’s a weird note at the end of it…
    NOTE: MOST Deputy Minister Samir Raouf was kidnapped
    from his residence near the ministry August 19. MOST
    officials insisted that our meeting go forward despite the
    kidnapping. END NOTE.

  17. I wonder whether anyone is checking whether any private planes left nearby Geneva airport in the hours after the killings, and where they said they were going?

  18. Why is Frank Gardner, BBC Security correspondent getting involved and even pushing a drug deal scenario? Not to mention David Cameron and William Hague speaking out. I smell a rat. Also, the vehicle wasn’t opened for hours because they feared that glass would shatter and contaminate the scene. Yet the mysterious passing unnamed RAF cyclist did in fact (how?) smash the drivers window open. (why not try the door handle? The Daily Mirror shows the passenger window smashed as well Makes no sense whatsoever. The killer targeted the victims clinically, there are no bullet holes in the vehicle, yet fifteen (15) “cartridges” are found. Elsewhere “dozens of shell casings”. (Sky news, quoting “reports” quoting Police sources, on the other hand says the bodies were “riddled with bullets”)

  19. Ah, I now see that the Telegraph has reported that the RAF cyclist casually smashed the window and turned off the engine because the doors had been locked. (by whom, locking the girl outside) and elsewhere that the French police could’t open the doors (not because they were locked but to prevent contamnation of the “bullet riddled doors” (except the police deny finding any bullets in the doors….)

  20. BBC Radio 4 Today were putting it as a family feud about premises in Baghdad that were sequestered by the Baath regime. They are saying that Mr Al Hilli recently returned to Baghdad to recover the premises. Oh yeah!

    btw are the BBC thick or was this deliberate to discomfort the new leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett, an Australian born agricultural scientist and ex Guardian Weekly editor? Stait introduced her on BBC Breakfast as being in Brighton on the eve of the Green Party conference and that she was replacing Caroline SPELMAN as leader who was their only MP. Ms Bennett corrected him saying that the name was Caroline LUCAS and he made a weak apology. The caption above was reading Live BRISTOL where the conference is happening yet Stait still referred to her as being in BRIGHTON. Wake up Stait and the BBC. Perhaps there is some animus within that is anti Green? Stait looked the idiot. Ms Bennett is streets ahead.

  21. Keep the conspiracy theories coming. They make brilliant reading. I am sure a few more random events will lick into place and we can lay the blame on the CIA and Mosad.

  22. Bill Oldroyd

    7 Sep, 2012 - 7:59 am

    A terrible tragedy for the young children involved and the family.

    This is in danger of becoming a real-life Scandinavian TV detective series. Will there be sub-titles ?.

  23. Britain has every reason to want to avoid an overt Israeli attack in Iran, which then gives Britain every motivation to help Israel covertly and cover it up. This is because if Israel attacks Iran then the USA will support Israel. This will drag Britain into a third Middle East war because of the “special relationship” which is likely to be very unpopular with the public. Muslim extremists would view it as a Jews versus Muslims war and might start a domestic bombing campaign in protest at Britain’s involvement.
    Then if Cameron loses the 2015 election, which is looking very likely, Britain will get a Jewish Prime Minister, Ed Miliband, which will tunr up the heat even further.
    The whole thing stinks and the comments here reinforce that. The drug deal gone wrong looks like a cover-up. It’s a bit clumsy for Mossad though, isn’t it?

  24. An unusual movement of names since 2002 through this neighbour’s house, the neighbour who was adding to the mystery yesterday???

  25. Wagon Wheels

    7 Sep, 2012 - 8:25 am

    “I am not immediately concerned that the other cyclist who raised the alarm was ex-RAF”
    Even though the dead Iraqi (“who had been living in Britain since *even* before his children were born”, wow, thanks BBC News) was a defence contractor for um, erm, how can I put this – the RAF.

  26. Solon, and what their nationalities were? It has all the markings of MOSSAD, clinical, cruel and deadly.

  27. Wagon Wheels

    7 Sep, 2012 - 8:34 am

    “Why is Frank Gardner, BBC Security correspondent getting involved and even pushing a drug deal scenario?”

    Frank Gardner works directly for MI6. Just look at the man’s record of previous LIES and DISINFORMATION. No self respecting journalist would carry on in a profession that they were so demonstrably UTTERLY USELESS at.

  28. Whenever BBC ‘Security’ correspondents Frank Gardner or Gordon Correra are reporting on a story, you know the spooks are involved…….

  29. That poor, poor girl. Lying there undeer the body of her dead mother, as quiet as a church mouse, frozen with terror, for eight hours.

    It’s unbearable to contemplate.

  30. @ John Goss : no idea! The thought just occurred that if this was a professional job, one would want to exfiltrate the people involved as speedily and safely as possible, and air transport seems an obvious way.

  31. Alps victims’ neighbour speaks

    A neighbour whose house backs on to the home of a Surrey family shot dead in the French Alps has revealed that the father said something to him before he went on holiday that he would be informing the police about.

    Jack Saltman, whose house backs on to the family home in Claygate, spoke of Saad al-Hilli who had gone on a trip to France with his family.

    Mr al-Hilli and his wife Iqbal and a woman believed to be her mother were shot and killed by a gunman.

    Speaking to Sam Walker on the Richard Bacon Show on Radio 5 Live, he said: “I know one little thing which I am not prepared to speak (about) at the moment. I will tell the police about it.

    “It was something Saad said to me before he went but at this stage I do not feel I can disclose that but I will tell the police exactly what he told me before he left.”

  32. The latest suspect appears to be the brother of Mr Al-Hilli, but you never know because that’s from the BBC.

  33. Murder most fowl

    7 Sep, 2012 - 10:34 am

    The Dauphine-Libere (local paper for area) says that the brother has “handed himself in” to the British police in order to remove himself from being suspected. (French)

  34. If the government did invoke the provisions of the standing D-notice then they are instrumental in covering up the savage and brutal murder of British,French and apparently Swedish citizens and they clearly have information re the perpetrators.So too are the press, tv and other media.

  35. From the aerial photos in the Telegraph you can see the rear tyre has buried itself due to wheel spin in reverse. Presumably this was how the ex-Raf guy found it, with the engine still gunning and in gear. This is surely why he felt he had to switch off the engine. The window would have already been shattered by the bullets but still in place. So easy to make a hole, reach in and switch off the engine.

    Sounds very plausible to me.

  36. @Zoologist “What is Fort Monckton?

    Fort Monckton (“the Fort”) is an SIS (MI6) field ops training place near Gosport on the Hampshire coast. It houses lots of SOE memorabilia, according to Richard Tomlinson, presumably to get the SIS trainees into the spirit of the thing. SIS do liaison training there with the special ops and death-squad type capability they can call on from the armed forces (“Increment”), including from the SAS and SBS.

  37. Who said he had no protection?

    One ‘cyclist’ shot dead; another ‘cyclist’, ex-RAF, straight onto the scene.

    Come on! How much manpower did the assassination team have? Not enough to stop a couple of cyclists 500m away?

    Interesting that it’s the French cyclist who got killed, not the British one. Reminds me of the Princess Diana assassination.

    So the British embassy have put 20 people onto the case! That rather suggests national security.

    Including its media management side. What they won’t want is speculation in France that the British protection looked the other way and, nous sommes désolés, the French guy was just collateral, like Henri Paul. (Paul was the French security guy who got killed with Princess Diana – and before anyone calls him a chauffeur, no he wasn’t a chauffeur).

    The question is not whether he had protection. He obviously had protection. The question is what happened with that protection.

  38. Just as well the post mortems are being carried out by French pathologists rather than one of the British bunglers like Patel and others.

    Listen to Prof Sebastian Lucas on the BBC London News last night.
    9mins 15 secs in BBC iPlayer

    Unfortunately the link expires at 7pm tonight.

    Shorrock is another name that come to mind.

    Note that he is still on this list {} although there is this note at the bottom. The National Police Improvement Agency should sort themselves out.

    **NOTE: Dr Shorrock is currently suspended by the GMC from undertaking any medical practice for which he is registered for and has therefore been suspended from the Home Office Register. Dr Shorrock is therefore unavailable to undertake any forensic post mortems on behalf of the Coroner or Police.

  39. I’m just waiting for the brother to be found dead as well with 20 bullets in the head – verdict suicide.

    Maybe it really is as simple as a family feud but the press seems to be speculating about absolutely everything except the supposed “facts” allegedly covered by Standing D Notice.

  40. Keith Crosby

    7 Sep, 2012 - 2:19 pm

    I heard it was a dispute about Shergar.

  41. Google translate of Le Dauphiné Libéré live blog.

    9 am 45.’s Brother driver of the vehicle, possibly financial dispute with him, appeared Thursday in the British police to exonerate himself, according to a source close to the investigation, quoted by AFP. The prosecutor Annecy, Eric Maillaud, said to have no “official confirmation”.

    9 am 28. Prosecutor called for caution on this track financial dispute, is querying the gap implied by the fact of “pass a financial dispute with a quadruple murder.”

    So the Prosecutor is asking for caution about the brother story (who may have already spoken to UK police) but the British media is playing that up against the Prosecutor’s wishes.

  42. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 2:40 pm


    If you’re looking for conspiracy theories then you need to read Frank Gardiner or indeed anything in MSM.

    They are now inventing all sorts of scenarios based on nothing but their own admitted speculation. Drug dealers, armed robbers, family feuds etc.

    Gardiner even has the cheek to say that those who are following the known facts are the conspiracy theorists.

    I think that the days when MSM could get away with this nonsense are fast coming to an end.

  43. Google translate of

    We learned that it is actually 25 shots (not 16 as announced yesterday) that was drawn with one or more automatic pistols.
    Eric Maillaud confirmed that the brother of one of the victims was understood by the British police (note: he presented himself to the authorities), there was a dispute between them and they would same argument.
    The course of the investigation, the judge noted that “cooperation between the two countries is complete.” A police investigator also has to fly to London.
    Just before this interview with the Dauphine Libere and the Guardian, Eric Maillaud received the Ambassador of Great Britain, Sir Peter Ricketts.
    According to our sources, the pressure is very strong in this case the side of the British authorities.

  44. Gardiner even has the cheek to say that those who are following the known facts are the conspiracy theorists.

    Anyone who even considers thinking for themselves, rather than playing the “subject” in the Stanford Prison Experiment throughout their entire life, is a terrorist, conspiracy theorist, rapist, paedophile, and Nazi.

    Talking about facts without allowing the media’s tentacles completely free rein in your brain is the most terrorist act of them all.

    Ain’t that so, CE?

  45. @N_ “the special ops and death-squad type capability they can call on from the armed forces (“Increment”), including from the SAS and SBS.

    …the RAF contribution being from their SD Flight.

    Dunno how good they are at cycling. In the French Alps, for instance.

  46. The BBC have swopped Jon Sopel for Frank Gardner and are going with the family feud.

    7 September 2012 Last updated at 14:17
    France shootings: Possible family row over money probed

    possible….thought to have been a witness….the BBC understands…

  47. Perhaps it was the CIA. If he had been in Iran helping them with the drone they downed. It might just upset the yanks!

  48. For me the oddest thing about this is the beating of the 7 year old girl and her being left alive. I guess the most mundane yet still horrible explanation is to get pin numbers out of the adults (assuming it was a robbery) but that does not seem to ring true. It seems too professional for robbers but not professional enough for a well executed assassination.

  49. Vermilion,

    The Prosecutor said only the very prompt life sustaining aid applied by the British ex-RAF cyclist saved her life. She had been shot and struck multiple times with a blunt instrument. She was left for dead. This doesn’t explain how she then supposedly happened to be outside the still locked car and collapsed just as the ex RAF guy approached.

  50. I think the issue that we should be looking at is why France and not the UK where they live/spend 99% of their time?

    This was obviously planned reasonably well and seemed meticulous in delivery. I suspect it has a strong bearing on the case.

    Somebody wanted them out of the UK first.

    As for this being a family feud (Arabs being savages and all that eh what?) I find that extremely hard to believe. Too much is starting to stink already.

  51. If it was a family feud over an inheritance, why leave the two little girls alive? They’d inherit their father’s share, presumably. And family members would have known that the 4 year old existed, even if the police didn’t.

  52. “The Prosecutor said only the very prompt life sustaining aid applied by the British ex-RAF cyclist saved her life.”

    Maybe it did. But all he did, according to reports, was put her in the recovery position. Hardly major.

  53. “…not professional enough for a well executed assassination”

    Perhaps it was a badly-executed assassination. A botched job. Perhaps that’s why a delegation of security officials were dispatched to the scene so promptly and why there’s a D Notice in force.

  54. Anon

    Thanks for that – I did not realise she had been shot too. Still the most obvious explanation for the beatings (assuming they were before the shooting) is to put pressure on the adults to obtain some information. I guess she was left for dead – again a sign of the killer or killers not being totally professional. Also if it was robbery for valuables or to find say a laptop with information surely the car would have been searched and the younger girl found.

  55. If it turns out the brother is under police protection while the papers print this stuff after the Prosecutor asked them not to – well I’ll be even sicker than usual.

    If he really is a suspect and his whereabouts unknown, why is he not wanted for questioning with the public advised not to approach?

  56. The brother has handed himself in to police in the UK “to clear his name”. His whereabouts are not unknown.

  57. I just bet they dig up and fit up some a lone right-wing nut/white supremacist for this.

    Very fishy indeed…

  58. “Another French police source said the brother of victim, named in British media as 50-year old Saad al-Hilli, presented himself to British police on Thursday to proclaim his innocence and cooperate in the probe.”

  59. And the French cyclist, Sylvain Mollier, who was shot and killed, was on paternity leave, apparently. The whole thing is appalling.

  60. Nuld,

    The ex RAF guy staunched the bleeding from a major wound according to the Prosecutor yesterday. He also kept vital airways open and kept her breathing.

  61. “The ex RAF guy staunched the bleeding from a major wound according to the Prosecutor yesterday. He also kept vital airways open and kept her breathing.”

    Good for him. All I read was “the recovery position”.

  62. Why hasn’t this ex-RAF guy been named?

  63. Nuld,

    Yes I know French reports say that he has approached police in the UK. But no confirmation of that from officials here yet. Presumably the national newspaper editors probably know if it is true or not. Personally I’d have maybe turned up at a local newspaper office first. I’d also be very worried about my safety if I was an innocent brother right now.

  64. Nuld,

    BBC said ex-RAF guy is under witness protection and all details are being withheld because of this.

  65. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 3:51 pm

    This Jack Saltman chap who is next door neighbour of the family is a former journalist, working for the BBC and Thames amongst others. He’s the guy who told the British police why the father was worried. He hasn’t expanded publicly on this.

    Anyway, he seems to have been involved in making a TV prog about the MLK assassination and has given testimony in court.

    May be interesting. May be not. In any event, he’s not unfamiliar with spookie goings on.

  66. I’ve discovered from a David Kelly site that Mr al Hilli was a member of the ba’ath faith just like David Kelly. So if you can find the murderer(s) of Dr David Kelly the two might be the same.

  67. This Jack Saltman?

    An Interview with Margaret Thatcher

    As part of the election coverage an interview with the leader of the Conservative Party, Margaret Thatcher

    Broadcast details
    ITV, 24 April 1979 (27 minutes)
    Production company
    Thames Television
    current affairs
    Peter Pagnamenta
    Jack Saltman

    Mike Townson
    Llew Gardner
    Margaret Thatcher
    This Week/TV Eye – Thatcher

  68. “I’d also be very worried about my safety if I was an innocent brother right now.”

    Sure. But not if my brother was a nuclear scientist who had recently started working for Iran and was executed by Mossad. Just saying …

  69. I’m sure his brother will commit suicide while detained,and a threatening note made from cut-out magazine letters will be found on his person reading:

    “Assa lamb, Ally-kum dear brother, you will never get me now I have left for Iraq. Don’t bother to look for me, as I will be travelling along quiet roads and staying in small camp sites, like this one in Annecy [picture included]. Hasta luego, your hateful brother. PS Allah Akbar.”

    His body will be buried in the Mediterranean in accordance with Islamic tradition, and the letter will be destroyed to prevent it becoming a high value auction item on ebay sold to finance Al-Assad’s balaclava-clad, knife-wielding shabiha death squad.

  70. Alex Thomson has tweeted:
    ‘public prosecutor says dispute over money in family is main lead’

    I wonder who pushed the prosecutor in that direction?

  71. Nuld,

    Why? especially if that was true, I’d be terrified of being “suicided” as a convenient “patsy”.

  72. Nuld,

    The Prosecutor has not said that a dispute over money is the main lead. In fact, according to French media he advised that theory be treated with “caution”. Unless he has changed his mind very recently since speaking earlier today.

  73. They didn’t kill the families of the Iranian scientists. I’d say the wife and grandmother were killed because they were witnesses …
    But who knows, maybe the whole thing was revenge.
    Does anyone know if, under Iraqi law, daughters can inherit? Because if they can, there’d be little point in leaving them alive in the event of a feud over inheritance.

  74. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:11 pm

    Does anyone know if this Jack Saltman chap is the neighbour who allowed the spooks to spy on the family from his home and is he also the source of the inheritance dispute story?

  75. Vague Hague Are you connecting with this link to a Jack Saltman, writer, producer, director?

    If so, I see his work for ITV included
    Editor (1 title)
    1972-1991 This Week (TV series)

    – Guns of Baghdad (1991)
    – Gulf 5 (1991)
    – Dover Air Base, Delaware – Where the Dead Come Home (1991)
    – Rain of Terror (1991)
    – At War in the Gulf (1991)
    See all 59 episodes »

    I still think it’s odd that on the electoral roll since 2002 there has been a succession of different people at his address. My link 8.25 am.

  76. Sir Peter Ricketts would be able to tell us everything.

  77. “Why? especially if that was true, I’d be terrified of being “suicided” as a convenient “patsy”.”

    I don’t think Mossad bothers with patsies. Too much trouble.

  78. BBC Breaking News
    FRANCE SHOOTINGS:Cyclist who discovered crime scene told police he saw a four-wheel-drive car driving away

    Any chance he got le numero? 😉


    FRANCE SHOOTINGS:British cyclist who came across crime scene did not hear shots fired – prosecutor

    There is a live press conference from the prosecutor.

  79. MrChucckles

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:29 pm


    “Selon nos sources, la pression est très forte sur cette affaire du côté des autorités britanniques.”

    I bet it is!

  80. Paris Match reports that the french cyclist killed was a metallurgist in the nuclear industry. But lots of coincidences is not proof of anything.

    Google translate: “Sylvain Mollier … Employed for twenty years in the field of metallurgy – the company is a subsidiary of Cezus Areva manufactures zirconium alloys for nuclear power plants … [on] paternity leave … Avid cyclist … had the habit of tackling the climbs of the region”

  81. Hi John G,
    I think you mean Bahai.
    David Kelly’s (R.I.P.) killer…wasn’t Blair? Bloody instigator, anyway.

  82. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:43 pm


    Yes. That seems to be him. His address is given in the US court testimony I posted above.

  83. Some new faces at the FCO including Warsi’s.

    Rt Hon William Hague MP Secretary of State for Foreign & Commonwealth Affairs with overall responsibility for the work of the FCO.

    Baroness Warsi was appointed Senior Minister of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 4 September 2012.

    Rt Hon David Lidington MP Minister of State responsible for European issues and NATO.

    Rt Hon Hugo Swire MP was appointed Minister of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 4 September 2012.

    Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint is Minister of State for Trade and Investment. Responsible for cross-Government strategy for trade and inward investment.

    Alistair Burt MP was appointed Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 14 May 2010.

    Mark Simmonds MP was appointed Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office on 5 September 2012.

  84. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 4:50 pm

    So anyway.

    Were it the case that Mr Saltman is the sole source of the inheritance dispute then that may well be very significant.

    Were he also the chap who allowed his home to be used by the spookies to spy on the family that would certainly be quite interesting too.

    Mr Saltman was quite a senior journalist, indeed a producer and director at a time when journalism was a much more serious business than it is today, and will have been involved in all manner of stone upturning.

    I’d love to know exactly when he became the family’s neighbour.

  85. Prosecutor at live press conference (on Sky News now) says he has no knowledge of ‘inheritance dispute’. Says another police source said there was a “dispute over money”. But he knows nothing of inheritance issues.

    Brother rushed to police station (in UK) after he heard on TV his brother was dead in France. Was looking for information.

  86. Vague Hague,

    “I’d love to know exactly when he became the family’s neighbour.”

    When he was ordered to?

  87. All roads will lead to Iran.

  88. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:07 pm

    The MSM’s conspiracy theory that there was an inheritance dispute has been denied by the brother and the family’s accountant. The brother has spoken to police, according to French prosecutor.

    Hey ho.

  89. David Landy

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:09 pm


    My thoughts exactly.

  90. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:21 pm

    Had to laugh at Jon Sopal.

    Earlier in the day he was spouting on about how quiet and isolated was the area of the killing – how you could spend all day there without meeting another soul.

    Just now he’s saying on reports identifying a vehicle that it could be anything such was the traffic.

    He did at least have the decency to grimace. That’s what they pay them so much of our money for, I suppose – Their acting ability. It certainly ain’t journalistic flair or even the mildest of curiousity.

    Anyway, nice to see that Harry is back in the baby bombing business. You just can’t take people seriously when they’re flashing their bum.

  91. Vague Hague

    7 Sep, 2012 - 5:36 pm

    Gavin Essler on BBC news still headlining with the inheritance row conspiracy theory.

    Truly disgraceful stuff.

  92. Nuld,

    If the brother is innocent then he is already by definition being used as a convenient patsy by the MSM. Just not a dead one.

  93. A lot of contradictory information seems to have been put out concerning Saad Al-Hilli’s background. I think Dr Kelly was murdered because of his knowledge of the arms to Iraq scandal, super gun, nukes etc. and most importantly he was going to write a book. Does anybody know if Al-Hilli had any connections with the arms to Iraq scandal?

  94. Daily Mail now running with

    ‘I’ve got nothing to do with it’: Brother of Iraq-born businessman executed with wife and mother-in-law in front of daughters in French Alps denies there was family feud over ‘financial matters’

    Father named as Saad Al-Hilli, a Baghdad-born businessman who lived with his family in Claygate, Surrey
    He was killed alongside his wife Ikbal and her mother during caravan holiday to Lake Annecy, in eastern France
    The Al-Hilli’s seven-year-old daughter, Zainab, is in a coma after suffering fractured skull and a bullet in the shoulder
    Her sister, Zeena, four, escaped unscathed after hiding beneath her mother’s legs for eight hours
    Cyclist Sylvain Mollier, 45, a father-of-three, was shot dead after disturbing the multiple killings
    British and French police are investigating whether murders were professional hit
    Mr Al-Hilli’s brother denies having anything to do with the killings and insists there was no family feud
    Forensics police examine 15 bullet casings to see if family was targeted by more than one assassin
    Police searching for man in dark shirt driving 4×4 that witnesses saw speeding away from the area

  95. CE soul-brother Neil, in his post of 7.55am (did he get paid overtime?) comes out with the now ususal sneer (I nearly said smear..) about “conspiracy theories”.

    Funny how quite a few “conspiracy theories” in the last century turned out to have been completely accurate when, years afterwards, government record were opened or participants wrote their memoirs or otherwise spilled the beans.

    Anyway, if one is willing to consider ALL hypotheses (and you are, Neil, aren’t you..) then I don’t quite see why the hypothesis of a targeted killing should be dismissed out of hand.

    Probably only a lot more info on the murdered man’s background and activities (when exactly did he come to the UK, under which circumstances and with what status, what was the precise nature of his work, was he in touch with foreign powers, etc, etc) will lead us to the correct hypothesis.

  96. Villager, you’re right. I quickly pasted that which probably means the source got it wrong too. There is a big difference with the Bahai faith and the Ba’athist party. Thanks for the correction.

  97. John, pleasure–small matter.

    Btw, the Canadians have decided to escalate the game and close their embassy in Iran. Who’s next? Sorry, for the distraction, but now that Iraq is “done”, Afghan’s deadline fast-approaching, let’s all get ready for Iran.

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