Let me be upfront: none of my usual contacts, so far, has any knowledge about the very clinical murders in France of the Iraqi origin British Hilli family. I have seen various internet reports of the links of Mr Hilli to the defence industry and that the French cyclist victim was linked to the nuclear industry. I am not immediately concerned that the other cyclist who raised the alarm was ex-RAF; had that fact been sinister, it would have been hidden or he might not have raised the alarm at all.
In short, I really do not know what is happening here and I don’t think normal hierarchies within British security agencies know either. It may be genuinely random, or not. I am not posting to speculate or to spread knowledge, but because unless I do post, commenters will derail other threads to discuss this. Should I discover anything, I will let you know. But we may well never know; we still don’t really know who killed JFK, or Hilda Murrell. There is always an answer, but it is not always known to the public.
No excuse can justify the failure to identify and help the poor little girl who was still alive in the bottom of the car. Discovering if anybody was alive in the car should have outweighed every other consideration for the emergency services. Protocols for the dead will not help them much, whatever they may achieve for abstract justice. The living are easier to serve well, and this was a gross failure.
Can anyone provided actual, non-anonymised evidence that a D-notice has been issued? That would be useful. Right now, it seem to be a rumour.
“RAF cyclist” just happened to be going for a (hilly?) ride up a dead end road…. Not the kind of ride I would make. What was at the end of the forestry road? Or was there a continuation for off-road bikes, for example? Would love to know how popular this route is for cyclists.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-nuclear-link-1314562
“Slain Brit Saad al-Hilli had links to a top-secret British nuclear lab, we can reveal.”
Where’s the D-notice?
Re. the question of why he took his family to the remote possible rendezvous, one ought to point out that families – including children – are used often for cover in espionage activity. Read Corinne Souza’s excellent work on the subject – her father was an Iraqi SIS agent for many years, so she writes from experience.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baghdads-Spy-Personal-Espionage-Intrigue/dp/1840187034/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347178840&sr=1-1
“@vermillion
Steve Cook – Yes – been thinking that but there is still the problem of why the family were there. Of course it is just possible they could have got lost then found themselves in that dead end and witness to the cyclists shooting. If that is the case then it is unlikely someone in a car would have done it because the cyclist target could have gone off-road at several earlier points … so that leaves a cyclist or motorcyclist as the most likely assassin. I still think the fact that the family were in that lay-by is the most significant aspect of this case – the thing that stands out. The road is not scenic – dense trees line each side. Perhaps they were letting off one or more of the family for a hike but seems odd – three generations of a family (one 4 another 70+) at the start of a mountain trail … did any have walking boots or a bike?? There was talk in TV news reports of a picnic spot but I only remember them up le Charbon maybe a couple of kilometers and a good climb away. Of course thing could have changed since I was there.”
Yep, fair enough. However, since this is all speculation, I could as easily make the following one of the top of my head:
The cyclist was the intended victim
The family drove to that secluded spot off the main road so that one of the girls could go and take a pee in private. Which is why she was the only one out of the car
While she was out, the cyclist was shot and the family in the car then copped it because they were witnesses.
Then the killers notice the girl outside as they are on the way to leave. They quickly stop shoot her and bash her head in before driving off.
All of which is probably bollocks of course. The point is, in the absence of hard evidence, a lot of this is speculation.
Were the occupants gassed/paralysed so that they could all be shot in turn? Think of Mossad in Dubai.
Oh the ex-RAF man, what a hero of heroes! Makes you wonder what the Brits have agreed to paid the French to come out with this stuff!
The French police are supposed to be protecting him. So why have they told the world that he’s been able to supply detailed descriptions of two vehicles – a green 4×4 and a motorcycle – used by the assassination team?
From the Telegraph:
“Eric Maillaud, the senior French prosecutor on the case, explained how the witness had been able to give a detailed description of the car and the motorbike.”
“However another witness has also come forward claiming to have almost been hit by a white Peugeot car that was been driven at high speed away from the scene.
Another witness, who is named (Sylvie Lecouer), says a white Peugeot non-4×4 was driven at speed away from the scene. On the left side of the road. Hint! She also recalled characteristics of its driver.
Aficionados of the Princess Diana assassination will recognise elements here.
Must have been like Piccadilly Circus up there.
How come Mme Lecouer has been named, but the Unnamed Ex-RAF Man, the man with “nerves of steel”, etc. etc., hasn’t been?
“Mr Maillaud told reporters all information was being taken seriously, but it is thought the evidence provided by the British cyclist, along with that of Mr Al-Hilli’s’s surviving daughters, Zainab and Zeena will be the most crucial in helping to catch the killers.”
Oh “it is thought”, is it?
Yes, don’t worry, Torygraph editors, the Brits will control all the flow of information…and disinformation… Except they won’t.
The Express also refer to the Unnamed Ex-RAF Man.
“It emerged last night that the RAF veteran with “nerves of steel” is terrified of being identified.”
Well he can’t have nerves of steel, then, can he?
“Eric Maillaud, the Annecy prosecutor, said that the British military veteran has a second home close to Lake Annecy, and divides his time between Britain and France.”
“He praised the cyclist for his “extraordinary” conduct, adding: “His testimony and bravery should be saluted. He is a former professional of the Royal Air Force, so he’s someone with nerves of steel.”
“He’s deeply shocked, but had extraordinary reflexes to put this girl in the recovery position and played a vital part in saving her life.”
“He’s a former RAF pilot and perhaps has a superior ethic to many others. If we are in need of him, he will come wherever he is.”
“I remind you that he’s a brave witness and a free man and has the right to return to Britain to recover after the shock he went through.””
James Bond goes where James Bond likes!
The French seem to be helping the Brits with the cover-up. It must be obvious that this Unnamed Ex-RAF Cyclist, this brave, ethical man with the extraordinary reflexes, must have been involved on one side or the bloody other. So the French are helping the Brits…until they decide not to. Allez!
Anybody else here remember a man called James Andanson?
Just look at how ridiculous this is. A British ex-RAF pilot (and he has been identified as a pilot) with a home near Lake Annecy, who divides his time between there and his home in Britain…
How long will it take any organisation with any clout to find out this guy’s name?
A mad thought?
The apparently broken roof rack in the photos?
Could a bicycle be carried up there? Was Saad going to cycle the Mountain Bike trail and then they were going to drive around to meet him? A good reason for using the road and how that it was known he was going to be there.
He was a keen cyclist:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012…ist-neighbours
Could the British cyclist not have been a cyclist until after the incident? Perhaps even breaking the window getting the bike down?
The road is only 3km long and were they at the very end?
How far ahead could the french cyclist be over a probably relatively fit English guy in just 3km? Not time enough for all this to have happened.
I still believe that if the 5 shots to the French cyclist are to be believed he wasnt expected but if there were lots involved in the shooting there would have been someone by the 3 km sign stopping any further traffic/forewarning of any.
Interested to know if he had a bike with him and whether it was still at the campsite.
Last edited by straw44berry; 09-09-2012 at 02:11 AM
The roof rack was used for a mountain bike it says so here:-
She said their dark red BMW had a mountain bike on a roof rack.
taken from:-
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/…-were-executed
about 3/4 down the article
I would bet money this is the bike being ridden by the British cyclist when police arrived
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/344512/British-family-were-executed
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/06/saad-al-hilli-cyclist-neighbours
these are the 2 full links
Perhaps he is a member here!
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcycling/
“I still think the fact that the family were in that lay-by is the most significant aspect of this case”
I’m coming round to the view that the most significant aspect is the fact that the elderly lady in the car has not been identified despite having a passport in her possession. The daughter doesn’t know who she was so that pretty much rules out the grandmother theory. Her age is widely quoted but how can we know her age wothout knowing who she was?
@SuhaylSaad1
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-nuclear-link-1314562
“Slain Brit Saad al-Hilli had links to a top-secret British nuclear lab, we can reveal.”
Where’s the D-notice?
No D-notice ,because the Rutherford Lab is not top-secret,the mirror is just full of BS
I should know ,I use to work at the Rutherford Lab.If you want to find a connection
I suggest you look at Drones UAV and the companies he worked for.
Thanks, Dave.
MJ: “Her age is widely quoted but how can we know her age wothout knowing who she was?”
Maybe because her dob would be on her passport. She’s been said to be someone called, Suhaila al Saffa, Al Hilli’s mother-in-law.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/332710/news/annecy-lake-murders-media-focuses-on-zaid-al-hilli-and-ignores-suhaila-al-saffa-and-sylvain-mollier.html/
What is slightly peculiar is that while the killings seemed to have been executed in a ‘professional’ manner, the killers left behind cartridges, which might suggest either that they didn’t care as they knew they’d be safe afterwards, or that were disturbed before they’d had time to clean up such evidence, or that cartridges were left behind deliberately. I’m also not sure why they didn’t simply shoot the 7 year-old girl in the head as well – much simpler than (possibly) pistol-whipping her and shooting her in the shoulder (?missed the heart). They used silencers, obviously, since no-one in the area heard any shots.
A mixture of professional and amateur. Not a completely controlled environment, something arranged at quite short notice.
Odd.
“Maybe necause her dob would be on her passport. She’s been said to be someone called, Suhaila al Saffa, Al Hilli’s mother-in-law”
The French police have not been able to confirm that the passport belonged to the dead woman. If she was Al Hilli’s mother-in-law that would make her Zeena’s grandmother but the girl does not know who she was.
“something arranged at quite short notice”
Yes. I read a quote from a friend or neighbour saying that Al Hilli’s decision to take his family on this camping holiday was taken at very short notice, a couple of days only. If this was a professional hit the perpetrators had very little time to organise it.
French cyclist took a different route that day from the one he usually took according to one report I read. This factor, together with the report from al Hilli’s friend that his trip had not been pre-planned but seemingly on the spur of the moment, means that both of them should not really have been there at that particular moment.
Whichever nation state sanctioned this act of brutality, it should be condemned and action taken by the civilised nations. The story appears to be the 7 year old was beaten about the head as the bastard assassins ran out of bullets. To have such “nerves of steel” to do this to children, just underscores there is more to this story than meets the eye, and the press’s focus is on this man’s brother after his inheritance! There are certain protected nations out there can do such evil deeds with impunity and others who wouldn’t dare as they know that the UN would immediately act.
Research and development is a dangerous business ,remember the Marconi scientists.http://www.declarepeace.org.uk/captain/murder_inc/site/dead_scientists.html
Also Gerald Bull of the Super Gun Fame.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsCjlUH0qsA
A picture of sorts is emerging of a meeting between a metallurgist and a highly trained satellite engineer, a boffin.
The meeting must have been set up beforehand, arranged in some way and been picked up by some telephone/txt.computer operator, for all these peeps in a green 4×4/ in a white car speeding off/ and a motorcycle, to be present at the same time.
Some of these reports of cars might be wrong, but to make this work you would have to have outlooks along a stretch of road to give notice of their arrival, of others following and of the assassins, there is no other word for such precisely carried our operation, to be ready for the occasion, the motorcycle might have been laying across the road to make them stop, simulating some sort of accident. By now the lookouts would be scrambling on their planned routes and the assassins, although not spotted were close to being seen, their car is seen speeding off, but which way? on to the trail maybe on small mountain passes towards Switzerland or to rendezvous with another vehicle/helicopter.
One French lady who heard the shots nearby, but she did not mention a helicopter, so if this was used it would have been some distance away.
My thoughts are with the girls at present. One still in a coma, the other must feel absolutely devastated, shocked and scared by this rigmarole and the people from various embassies running around them, asking doctors when they can speak to them, etc.
This experienced cyclist from the RAF, who might or might not have been on the spot by chance, let another cyclist overtake him close before the event? Did he knew of the other person showing up? as he aware of the vicinity of the mission? that he let the other cyclist pass by, to get him out of the way so to speak? did he not know that the cyclist was the metallurgist?
More will come out and, be it in the gods will, the older girl might recover sufficiently to speak out, she must have seen one of the assassins in full, who knows they might have looked like gendarmes seeing to another accident, a motorcycle that had crashed, but I doubt such level of sophistication.
This mission went wrong, too many were present and the getaway was not clean, so bookmark this thread, sooner or later smelly dragons will seek the stench of the situation, Mary and Anders 777 will get their fangs on it, dragging it into the light of day.
it is just possible they could have got lost then found themselves in that dead end and witness to the cyclists shooting.
Unlikely you would need to carry 45+ rounds to do this. This does beg the question though did the small girl have physical injuries because the perpetrators ran out of bullets?
Espionage is an ugly business. I cannot blame Mr Saad Al Hilli for supplying valid information on certain nuclear fusion techniques to Iran according to my source. I know of two more Iranians here in Britain on political asylum who are supplying British GPS satellite technology to Iran.
The 2003 Iraq war massacre of children convinced Saad not to cooperate with the British MI6 and become a patsy/cut-out to reinforce the Iraq nuclear WMD claims which were finally exposed as lies. Not only that he threatened to reveal British intelligence bribes and threats to secure his services, a red light and guaranteed ’16’ involvement after a nod from agent Cameron.
One thing for sure – this is a brutal callous government unlike any other we have seen – but that is one thing – it is a huge step to make from this to a targeted assassination on French soil. I am not sure I can believe that. Additionally the modus operandi doesn’t quite fit.
I do believe however this was state sponsored.
It did not inspire confidence in me that the day after the shootings the French prosecutor stated that “the killers may never be found”.
And it takes prosecutor three+ days to announce this is a “complex killing” – WTF!
Some points to note.
It would be interesting to know the GSM coverage of the area as rudimentary SIGINT techniques will localize the attackers pretty quickly if they were using standard mobile devices (as well as call history). They wouldn’t even need to have made a call.
If the RAF Guy was using a Sat phone then I’m afraid I’d be hugely suspicious. Such phones are generally not needed by tourists to France – heck even in Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan/Georgia/Tajikistan I rarely use one. If he were using a GSM device – his entire location and call history will be available for in-depth analysis.
Basically a GSM device will leave a geo trail across the world – even if no call were made – along with call history.
The first rule of any professional is to never use/own a GSM/3G phone. Period.
The Mail on Sunday has more on Mr Al Hilli’s income which they indicate is too low to have been able to support his lifestyle. I think they are implying he was some sort of agent. The RAF cyclist is apparently ‘terrified’ of being identified. 😉
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200388/Did-French-Alps-murder-victims-secret-work-space-satellite-contract-make-prime-assassination-target.html
a work of three journalists!
“The Mail on Sunday has more on Mr Al Hilli’s income which they indicate is too low to have been able to support his lifestyle”
That’s interesting because a couple of days ago I heard a radio interview with Al-Hilli’s accountant who disclosed that his client was “very comfortably off”.
@Suhayl Saadi – I second your encouragement to people to read Corinne Souza’s book, especially with reference to how SIS relate to the children of some of their agents.
Souza’s material is the best I have ever read about SIS.
She covers aspects nobody else has covered in print, e.g. SIS medics and dentists, SIS in parliament, SIS and PR, and the role of that peculiar organisation Gabbitas Thring. No spin. Essential reading. Power to her elbow.
What is your source for saying no-one in the area heard any shots? Some reports say “intense gunfire” was heard (e.g. here) Not that that makes them true. I would have thought silencers would be used. Of course if there were armed protection, that would be a different matter.
@Felix – Are you sure it’s a dead end, as far as 4-wheeled vehicles are concerned?
If so, and if The Unnamed Ex-RAF Cyclist (TUERC) saw a green 4×4 and a motorcycle speeding past him towards the end of the road, where he arrived “minutes” later, then did they pass him on their way back? Or was there a junction between where they passed him and the end of the road?
Another witness saw a small white Peugeot speeding away from the scene.
We have got to ask questions about TUERC. Was he involved – either in protection or in the job itself? Such a job needs back-up, communications, logistics.
If he was involved on one side or the other, the question is why did he hang about.
How come the car doors got locked? You might as well ask the same question about that hotel room door in Dubai after the Mossad assassination there.
Something goes wrong in almost every military or military-style operation. The French authorities might be hinting at that, when they praise what wonderful “reflexes” TUERC has got. Hmm, so he needed to do something fast, did he? Or shall we blame the translator?
Maybe the team member or members who fired the shots dropped something in the car by mistake and a decision was taken to send in a back-up man to go and remove it? Smashing the window to turn the engine off sounds odd to me.
Mark,
How on earth would he have had access to “valid nuclear usion techniques” other than what is in the public domain? Unless another neighbour turns out to be an elderly ex British nuke designer he regularly played chess with or something. Although maybe I shouldn’t rule anything out in this bizarre story.
Another thing I’ve wondered. Is it possible the kill team knew the identity of “ex RAF cyclist” and had explicitly no authority to take him out for whatever reason?
I find quite a lot of this armchair amateur forensics a bit self satisfied but….
1.This probably involves fusion technology
2. The BBC is a pantomine show – no story or spin they play out in their pantomine show can be believed, including this one