Why is Sunny Hundal a Neo-Con Lickspittle?

by craig on October 14, 2012 11:49 am in Uncategorized

Sunny Hundal is pulling the Nick Cohen trick of claiming that “Lefties” who fail to applaud every action of Bush, Blair, Netanyahu and Obomber are actually supporting Osama Bin Laden’s cause.

The Taliban is an excrescence but it is not a spontaneous outpuring of human evil. Its roots lie in the devastation of Afghanistan by foreign invasion, first by the Soviets and then by the Americans, coupled with the failings of Pakistani society due in very large part to hideously corrupt governments and politically powerful military, aided and abetted by the West. The Taliban is, in short, as much a symptom as a cause of disaster.

Hundal is a sad figure. He asked me to join Liberal Conspiracy when it started, and I refused on the grounds it was going to be a vehicle for New Labour war criminals. It has become precisely that. Hundal’s basic decency has predictably been eroded as he was sucked in by the neo-con establishment. He joined New Labour and the Guardian and is now in the states working for the drone-killer President who has launched a campaign against free speech which has seen the prosecution of more whistleblowers under Obama than under all previous US presidents combined. Hundal recently helped the anti-whistleblower cause further by publishing a fawning “exclusive” interview with the odious Harriet Harman (Of course it’s exclusive – who the fuck other than sell-out Hundal wants to talk to Harman) repeatedly labeling Julian Assange as guilty of rape.

Hundal’s question “Why do lefties keep ignoring the threat of the taliban to Pakistanis” is a stupid slur. “Why is Sunny Hundal a neo-con lickspittle?” is a question worth discussion.

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  1. At the top the same puppet masters are pulling the strings. There is in reality no difference between the leftists and the rightists they serve the same cause. That is why grand centralised structures of power, like the EU and the banking cartels are so dangerous. They are tools for centralised power.

  2. The self-proclaimed leftists are not really leftist at all, they are corporate liberals, phonies. If they really were leftists, they would not be supporting any of the main parties, here or in the USA, as all the main parties now, more so than ever, are signed up to the same neoliberal economics.

  3. ” … and Obomber … ” Craig, please don’t get into the habit of this kind of name distortion. It really reduces your credibility.

  4. The fact is, if the USA, Saudi Arabia et al stopped supporting the military-security block of Pakistan (as they have, for 55 years), the Taliban would lose their major sponsors. The Taliban and the other Islamist paramilitaries are instruments of the Pakistan military-security block who are the real rulers of Pakistan.

    That is why any politician, political party, polician’s son or 14 year-old schoolgirl who dares to stand up and question the Islamist narrative in Pakistan gets kidnapped or assassinated. What is required – and only this will work – is a grassroots secular redistributive revolution in Pakistan permanently and definitively to remove the military from power – both political and economic. For that to happen, it would be likely that the Saudi Arabian regime would need also to be brought down. All of that can only happen from inside these countries. But it would be helped if the West and others stopped arming and otherwise supporting these regimes (and paramilitary Islamist cadres in the Middle East).

    Everything else is a red herring.

  5. Obomber or Bombs away Obama sounds credible enough to me. Watch and listen to “Obama Nation”

  6. Rob (12:19pm, 14.10.12), what, you mean like, ‘Margaret Thatcher, Milk-Snatcher!, or ‘Fatch’, Or ‘Is it a bird, is it a ‘plane? No, it’s my president, LBJ!’ Or, ‘Tricky Dickie’? Or ‘Sunny Jim [Callaghan]’. Or ‘Tony Bliar’? Or ‘Dubya’? Or ‘Ronald Ray-gun’? All of those names were was fairly accurate depictors, actually. It has nothing to do with credibility.

  7. hector mcglumpherty

    14 Oct, 2012 - 1:28 pm

    I stopped reading it due to atricles stating with the headline ‘Why you should think/do/etc…’ Reminded me too much of the SWP

  8. One of your best comments Craig – Powerful. witty, true – Bravo! – the basis of a speech on the paper anniversary of Occupy??

  9. Hundal once said on Twitter, as part of an attack on George Galloway in the wake of his Bradford election victory, that he didn’t ‘want any part of a left that supports dictators thanks. Maybe you do’. The implication being that Galloway is a dictator lover.

    He was challenged by Media Lens on how he could reconcile this position with his open and enthusiastic support for Barak Obama, who arms dictators to the tune of billions of dollars. Hundal, with a straight face, simply denied that Obama supports dictators. You can see him squirm in the face of the irrefutable evidence that Obama does indeed support dictators here:


    Hundal is basically a liberal bellwether, who’ll never say or write anything that strays too far from the cosy, liberal Establishment consensus (and the liberal Establishment are frequently reactionary and rather illiberal in their views). Ergo, Galloway = Very Bad Man, Obama = Very Good Man.

    That he has to contradict his own purported principles to hold these views speaks volumes about his level of intellectual honesty and independence.

    Not a particularly bad guy, but not a particularly good or insightful political writer either.

  10. The lick-spittlers answer to the resistance executed by the sycophantic door-mats, yearning rewards from their handshakers.


  11. I really think types like Cohen and SunnyCloudy are purely mercenaries with communication skills. Presstitutes for hire, they know the line of business they are in is providing smug justifications covering themselves and which others also complicit can adopt and further disseminate themselves, they rationalise the self-evidently species-suicidal inevitablity of triumphant western capitalism’s rotten cause, do all the thinking for those who’s programming has obliged them not to question inculcated holy truths. You could also include Monbiot and his conversion to nuclear power. Asked their price, they named it and got it. They are maximising for the present their non-cash assets, knowing that whenever it all inevitably collapses – this orgiastic looting of communally owned resources with the slaves worked to death for their daily bread – it’ll give them some advantage in the aftermath. They hope to fill the moat, electrify the fences, contract for some goons and slavering dogs and live in baronial splendour, or fuck off to some fortified far away hideaway. They’ve planned to make out like the sneak thief bandits they are, and now stoke the flames of the coming conflagration as they’re irksome to be off, tortured and it can’t come soon enough.

  12. ‘Kick their ass and take their gas’. Cohen, Hundal and friends are the journalistic equivalent of that t-shirt slogan, a toxic mix of privilege, prejudice and wilful ignorance.

  13. For those that missed it, here is Sunny Hundal’s interview with Harriet Harman:


  14. Typing without my specs on is fatal.

    I entered ‘dunny hindal’ in the search box and was asked

    Did you mean:

    sunny hundal

    dune kindle

    dune sandal

    Anyway, he’s here

  15. ” They hope to fill the moat, electrify the fences, contract for some goons and slavering dogs and live in baronial splendour, or fuck off to some fortified far away hideaway.”

    I’ve heard that there are shipbuilders who may specialise in ultra luxury, giant cruise liners, designed to be sold to groups of plutocrats; so that they can sail the deep oceans perpetually; only docking for supplies every so often, in safe ports.

    No tax, no vulnerability from Joe public, and no legal threats from national states. The perfect ‘get-away’ whilst all the Romes of the world burn. Noah’s ark for the elites.

  16. Cryptonym A case in point. Cohen in today’s Observer.

    The week I shed my anti-Tory taboos
    There are often as many differences within right and left as between them about the big issues – except one

    Nick Cohen
    The Observer, Sunday 14 October 2012


  17. I didn’t manage to find the Hundal/Harman interview. The link above was not correct. But I did discover a punjabi popstar called Harjit Harman. I think I am going to have some fun with this… next time I meet Harriet I shall ask her how her pop career is going, and that it is wise to have another career option when NewLab goes down the tube…..I know it is cruel to wind up the humourless but it is only the feeble weapon I have, and there is little retaliation possible. But pols hate having the piss taken out of them. The internet delivers, again, in its whacky way.

  18. “I’ve heard that there are shipbuilders who may specialise in ultra luxury, giant cruise liners, designed to be sold to groups of plutocrats; so that they can sail the deep oceans perpetually; only docking for supplies every so often, in safe ports.”

    We have them already, and on land. They’re called ‘gated communities’. They have their own schools, their own shopping malls and their own police forces. I visited one near San Diego just a couple of years ago. It struck me then that they were the mathematical inversion of a prison: don’t lock the bad in, lock them out. So many parallels in history and fiction: the Dublin Pale (origin of the phrase ‘beyond the pale’) and R L Stevenson’s sly metaphor of the ‘palisade’ in ‘Treasure Island’.

  19. @ Craig,

    ” working for the drone-killer President who has launched a campaign against free speech which has seen the prosecution of more whistleblowers under Obama than under all previous US presidents combined.”

    Here is the deal:-


    Accept it – or – fight for freedom, truths, rights and justice.

  20. Great post Craig and Thanks for the word presstitutes, Cryptonym, so true, loved your description.

    The roots of war and desolate views lie indeed in foreign occupations and strife, from centuries onward, not just the present history, such attitudes developing must have been visible for Burns before he got a hiding.

    Our European equivalent is the Balkan region, again ethnically and religiously splintered. Treated with regular disdain whilst riding past, the knightly crusaders on their seasonal trips to Jerusalem first saw to it that the local breeds would become war loving tempestuous and not very pleased at those passing by, as is expressively on view in Afghanistan. Welcome to stay for a while, but not forever. Business is fine, as long as you do not squabble with their cultural heritage, rites and rituals.

    This might go against our own ideas of morals, understanding of human rights, but we cannot force people to change at our pace, they need to think and find their own ways to change, the best we can expect is to advise and proclaim.

  21. I might be unfairly bracketing Hundal with Cohen and other war-mongers and apologists, he might gasp himself at some of the deceptive delusions and distractions the mass media perpetrate in the absence of providing news and sustainably credible opinion. Complacent and with hindsight dire Guardian editorial positions haunt and taint them, still they cling pathetically to the belief that the existing party based systems of political organisation can continue, just back one or the other and excuse the ineptitude and wanton damage.
    To them it doesn’t matter which one represents truth or any thing, just back one of them and play the game, hope for the best, safe that some ‘other’ will always yield enough menials and lab rat victims. A corpse of a newspaper for the vapid floating voter demographic.

  22. Sorry to disparage liberalism and I would never ever not bow down to disabilities.

    I see liberalism with the use of an eraser, although sometimes it may be best to just put a line through it.
    Sunny Hundal seems to lost his grasp on consensus.

  23. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    14 Oct, 2012 - 8:11 pm

    The Left (or rather, the putative Left) has been moved to the right for eleven years now rather successfully by the NeoCons. Fear is the mind-killer, and it’s been their stock-in-trade for decades. Whether they are called Birchers or White Supremacists, they have the same MO.

    “If you’re looking for the guilty…”

    V: Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone’s death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn’t there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who’s to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you’re looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn’t be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed the Old Bailey, to remind this country of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of November forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you’ve seen nothing, if the crimes of this government remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of November to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never, ever be forgot.

  24. Along with Mehdi Hasan, one of the most annoying voices on the supposed left operating in the UK today.

  25. Keith Crosby

    14 Oct, 2012 - 9:26 pm

    Fair do’s Craig, you are a rare thing indeed – a middle-class person who chose honesty over the money. The Hun’s only obeying orderz.

  26. Why? Because divide and rule is the best political ruse. You stand in the shoes of colonialism in order to confuse.

    I once heard an elder in the pulpit of the mosque tell a huge audience that the UK was Pharaoh and Asia the downtrodden children of Israel whom God was going replace UK power with.

    The dream of subjugating the British fills 90% of Asian hearts and minds. They would use any means possible, but in the meantime getting rich and play-acting proper- UK varlues is a good enough ruse.

    Why is it annoying? Because they suck up to the politics we hate while they are secretly climbing the slippery poles of power.
    In a few years, like the Maoris who took the bible but lost the land to UK missionaries, powerful, atheist Asians will rule the UK, but the indigenous people of this country will have Islam. Inshallah.

  27. Alternative to common decision-making practices

    Consensus decision making is an alternative to commonly practiced adversarial decision making processes.[5] Robert’s Rules of Order, for instance, is a process used by many organizations. The goal of Robert’s Rules is to structure the debate and passage of proposals that win approval through majority vote. This process does not emphasize the goal of full agreement. Critics of Robert’s Rules believe that the process can involve adversarial debate and the formation of competing factions. These dynamics may harm group member relationships and undermine the ability of a group to cooperatively implement a contentious decision.

    Consensus decision making is also an alternative to “top-down” decision making, commonly practiced in hierarchical groups. Top-down decision making occurs when leaders of a group make decisions in a way that does not include the participation of all interested stakeholders. The leaders may (or may not) gather input, but they do not open the deliberation process to the whole group. Proposals are not collaboratively developed, and full agreement is not a primary objective. Critics of top-down decision making believe the process fosters incidence of either complacency or rebellion among disempowered group members. Additionally, the resulting decisions may overlook important concerns of those directly affected. Poor group relationship dynamics and decision implementation problems may result.

    Consensus decision making attempts to address the problems of both Robert’s Rules of Order and top-down models. Proponents claim that outcomes of the consensus process include:[3]

    Better Decisions: Through including the input of all stakeholders the resulting proposals may better address all potential concerns.
    Better Implementation: A process that includes and respects all parties, and generates as much agreement as possible sets the stage for greater cooperation in implementing the resulting decisions.
    Better Group Relationships: A cooperative, collaborative group atmosphere can foster greater group cohesion and interpersonal connection.

    Or in anotherway “Lickspittling.”

  28. Craig – why is an intelligent experienced former ambassador such as yourself still wasting your time with this left right paradigm? Surely you’ve realised by now that all the so called opposing factions are working for the same people and the same institutions?

  29. KingofWelshNoir

    14 Oct, 2012 - 10:35 pm

    @Suhayl Saadi

    Come off it mate! ‘Tony Bliar’ (GEDDIT!) might be fine on a placard at a demo but in grown-up prose it’s just juvenile. Whether it’s an ‘accurate depictor’ or not has nothing to do with it. It’s a question of good style.

  30. In fact I would go so far as to say that the biggest impediment to the spread of the truth of Islam in this country is the silent racist ambition, entirely understandable after 250 years of being pissed on by specially trained persecutors, of Asian Muslims.

  31. V: Checkout their boots Ben – is that a riot cop?

  32. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    14 Oct, 2012 - 10:57 pm

    The fingermen? Sorry, Mark. No speeka.

  33. T-total.

    Most indulge, best liberal we had in ages, Charles Kennedy, messed it up.

    Good reason not to indulge.

  34. Suhayl Saadi
    14 Oct, 2012 – 12:23 pm

    Suhayl, very succinct summary of a highly complex and critical problem.

    Surprising that no one engaged you in any dialogue over this issue on this sunny Sunday. Is it because everybody agrees, or no one really cares, I wonder?

  35. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    15 Oct, 2012 - 12:04 am

    ” Is it because everybody agrees, or no one really cares, I wonder?”

    No disrespect to Suhayl, but if perpetual motion machine popped up tonight, and petrodollars went away, it would be a no-brainer.

  36. If you are:

    (b)A nutter
    (c)Living in poor housing
    (e)Spent all your money on drugs instead of food & clothes.
    (g)Earn a pittance

    Then you may be entitled to a government Smart card loaded with some money that you can spend in a government approved shop.

  37. Why is Sunny Hundal a Neo-Con Lickspittle?

    who cares
    the simple question is and i am hoping to get at least 100 replies from mi5 and gchq on this forum.

    hello james bonds.
    could you tell a simpleton what checks are done before the queen dishes out o.b.e. and knighthoods.
    what checks are done to protect the innocent royal family from murdering paedophile sodomite jingly jangly dj’s

    if i was dishing out awards vetiing would be important yes no.
    special branch reports done yes no
    dj’s going to the israeli war cabinet of interest to mi6 yes no.
    the future king being allowed to sleep under the same roof as a bbc child wrangling psychopath.
    instead of spending times on sites like this how about protecting are innocent royal family from bbc danger and reputational association loss

  38. the tragedy is too many $$$ for too many players for too long for peace to be allowed in pakistan/afghanistan.

    “How Jimmy Carter & I Started the Mujahideen” – Zbigniew Brzezinski

    was the following the worst idea ever? this has never been fully exposed…yet consider the terrible ongoing consequences:

    March 2002: Washington Post: From U.S., the ABC’s of Jihad
    Violent Soviet-Era Textbooks Complicate Afghan Education Efforts
    By Joe Stephens and David B. Ottaway
    Published in the dominant Afghan languages of Dari and Pashtu, the textbooks were developed in the early 1980s under an AID grant to the University of Nebraska-Omaha and its Center for Afghanistan Studies. The agency spent $51 million on the university’s education programs in Afghanistan from 1984 to 1994.
    During that time of Soviet occupation, regional military leaders in Afghanistan helped the U.S. smuggle books into the country. They demanded that the primers contain anti-Soviet passages. Children were taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles and land mines, agency officials said. They acknowledged that at the time it also suited U.S. interests to stoke hatred of foreign invaders.
    “I think we were perfectly happy to see these books trashing the Soviet Union,” said Chris Brown, head of book revision for AID’s Central Asia Task Force.
    AID dropped funding of Afghan programs in 1994. But the textbooks continued to circulate in various versions, even after the Taliban seized power in 1996.
    Officials said private humanitarian groups paid for continued reprintings during the Taliban years. Today, the books remain widely available in schools and shops, to the chagrin of international aid workers.
    “The pictures [in] the texts are horrendous to school students, but the texts are even much worse,” said Ahmad Fahim Hakim, an Afghan educator who is a program coordinator for Cooperation for Peace and Unity, a Pakistan-based nonprofit.
    An aid worker in the region reviewed an unrevised 100-page book and counted 43 pages containing violent images or passages.
    The military content was included to “stimulate resistance against invasion,” explained Yaquib Roshan of Nebraska’s Afghanistan center. “Even in January, the books were absolutely the same . . . pictures of bullets and Kalashnikovs and you name it.” …
    Above the soldier is a verse from the Koran. Below is a Pashtu tribute to the mujaheddin, who are described as obedient to Allah. Such men will sacrifice their wealth and life itself to impose Islamic law on the government, the text says.
    “We were quite shocked,” said Doug Pritchard, who reviewed the primers in December while visiting Pakistan on behalf of a Canada-based Christian nonprofit group. “The constant image of Afghans being natural warriors is wrong. Warriors are created. If you want a different kind of society, you have to create it.”…

  39. O/T The Costa Concordia pre trial hearing opens today. Schettino and others from Mr Arison’s empire will face the music. There are 125 lawyers appearing.


  40. Am I stupid, a leading point, consensus describes how we political instrumented and we just skip over it.

    Neoliralism is a top down political system and Robert’ Rule as it is, has us divided and competing on a merry go round of opinion.

    Craig my point is you should quit the alchohol as it is proven to be detrimental and shape up.
    This point scoring is damaging and dividing and lets find a Mantra

  41. Anyone who regularly uses the term ‘the left’ is to be distrusted. This should be, I think, an iron rule. Like all rules, there can be exceptions – Lenin’s Tomb, or George Orwell spring to mind – but mostly it’s the rhetorical technique of mediocrities. The Left, in this technique, really just means ‘people who I disagree with’, or perhaps, ‘a handy sterotype for the purposes of elucidating an argument’. It’s not especially big or clever.

    As an aside, I’ve long thought that Nick Cohen no longer writes his own byline. It’s so bizarrely lacking in basic fact-checking, and its argument so tenuous that it really does look like its been written by the interns. I’m not even sure I’m kidding, his articles really are more than a little slap-dash …

  42. Hundal may or may not be a lickspittle.

    It is more certain that he is in denial.

    Specifically, he cannot bring himself to admit that, for a variety of reasons, most Pakistanis perceive the US to be a greater threat to their sense of well-being than the Taliban.

    And why?

    Having announced that they intend to bug out of the region, the US has set about infuriating a formidable cultural group that has defeated every intruder for the last 2000 years.

    I never thought that I’d see anyone more inept than George W. Bush. And then Obama came along.

    The Americans have no patience, no insight, no sense of history, no understanding of the possible. They used to have a lot of money. They don’t have that any more.

    Hundal cannot bring himself to admit these facts.

    Sad, really.

    [Mod/Clark: correction applied, see below.]

  43. Err … than the Taliban.

  44. I am very sorry that Malala Yousafzai was shot and that her life is threatened.

    Does anyone else have doubts that it was the ‘taliban’ that shot her, or like me, think that maybe other agencies were at work to further demonize the taliban? The attack on her has achieved much international publicity and I see that Hague was piping up this morning on the matter. See the BBC headline writ large below as an illustration of what I am saying.

    She is being brought over here for treatment, the UAE being the paymasters.

    Malala Yousafzai: Taliban shooting victim travels to UK

  45. I have just gone to Medialens and see the same question has been raised.


  46. Frank ‘I Was There’ Gardner again.

    Saudi Arabia ‘insulted’ by UK inquiry

    By Frank Gardner
    BBC security correspondent

    Saudi Arabia’s Sunni monarchy suspects Iran of covertly supporting Shia activists in Bahrain

    UK’s dilemma in balancing the Gulf
    Saudi Arabia’s al-Qaeda challenge
    Bahrain profile

    Saudi Arabia says it is “insulted” by a parliamentary inquiry into how the UK deals with the country and Bahrain.

    Saudi officials have told the BBC they are now “re-evaluating their country’s historic relations with Britain” and that “all options will be looked at”.


    He said on the radio this morning that he had been to see the Saudi Ambassador and other officials in the Saudi Embassy. He is obviously HM’s Unofficial Ambassador to Saudi Arabia.

    The weight of his vanity and self importance is threatening to overbalance him.

  47. Re I have just gone to Medialens and see the same question has been raised.

    s/be I have just gone to Medialens and see that a question has been raised about the shooting of Malala being for political gain, ie the West as benefactors and not aggressors.

  48. Cryptonym 14 Oct, 2012 – 3:13 pm
    “You could also include Monbiot and his conversion to nuclear power. Asked their price, they named it and got it. They are maximising for the present their non-cash assets, knowing that whenever it all inevitably collapses…it’ll give them some advantage in the aftermath.”

    I find Monbiot sincere and so would welcome evidence that reveals he is corrupted. What exactly is the price he asked? I am unsure if you mean he has a secret stash of gifted gold sovereigns, or has booked his place in a post apocalyptic bunker.

  49. Put bluntly there are two types of conservatives: those who directly support the ruling order, and second those who systematically attack anyone who seriously questions or opposes the ruling order. I think Mr Hundal falls under the latter category.

  50. Ginger Nuts (was: Tea Cakes)

    15 Oct, 2012 - 9:20 am

    Malala Yousafzai, the 14 year old shot in the head has been on the News every single day since her unfortunate run in with a trigger happy Pashtun.

    The media could be forgiven for this excessive coverage if it were not for the fact that just a few days before Malala was injured 5 Afghani women and 4 Afghani girls were MURDERED by NATO while out collecting fire wood.

    There may well have been survivors from that disgusting attack that are in desperate need of medical attention but we will not hear any of it, nor we will hear from the victims grieving families. That is simply the sort of News that you are not allowed to hear.

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Tea Cakes, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  51. Ginger Nuts (was: Tea Cakes)

    15 Oct, 2012 - 9:45 am

    US tipped again for Nobel Economics Prize, as Europe lags

    Sub-prime mortgages, multi-trillion Credit Default Swaps fraud, Stock market rigged, printing billions of dollars every month to prop up the long dead T-Bond market???

    Warmongering European countries get the peace prize and economic basket case the US gets this. The world is truly insane.

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Tea Cakes, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  52. To be fair to George Monbiot, Cryptonym,he has changed his mind on nuclear power. before he became a father his views did not much differ, only when the need to provide on a regular basis and for a family came along did he change his mind. I knew George from the time of the Newbury Bypass demonstration, we shared a roll up or two those days and he was more open to the substantial debate on issues that mattered, since he works from that newsrag and has a family to care for, he has changed considerably.

    George so obviously did not know of our massive latent potential for alternative technologies, especially in the east of England where rising sea levels and a slowly sinking land mass is offering us engineering projects that could solve our energy problems for some time to come, buying time it is also called, for this sinking is permanent and the last time I looked at the rise in sea levels, they were all going up over time.

    So, we need to safeguard estuaries and build dike’s and lock systems and whilst we are at it, use these tidal differences to generate electricity, a few tens of thousands of job in that for some time to come. We must marry the protection of our estuaries and homes with the production of latent energies that exist around us.

    George has not seen, or dared to look at the full potential without comparing it to the prediction of the nuclear industry he’s obliged to cover. For example a barrier across the Wash would reduce our need for two nuclear power stations, constant energy day and night

    Salinity in the Wash would slightly be lowered, enough to bring the combined green wrath of the RSPB, their tax dodging lawyers, allegedly, and other supposedly caring bodies down on you. Human peril is not on the radar of many Greens, their redux-environmentalism is not even decided by their members, but by leading questions imposed as choice by those who run the charity. So called Green bodies, whether its FoE, Greepeace or the RSPB, are all hierarchically ordered with campaign’s being decided by the top echelons, the members merely being allowed to agree with their choice of campaign. Their work has been directed to shuffle along for decades, keeping their profile up and the membership money flowing, a few emotive pictures and issues do the rest, whilst guilt ridden middle class families pay up and feel better for it. What a shame.

    It is selective Greens who are holding back major infrastructure work and the safety of the Fenlands and its inhabitants, 1/5th. of our national fresh food supply is produced there, with non existing threats to our bird population, these so called Greens are small minded, blinkered and selective.

    George has become accustomed to life and its needs to conform, may of us have done that in the past, including myself, change does not come easy and he’s obviously not a whistle blower or a rebel.

  53. Nevermind 15 Oct, 2012 – 9:59 am
    “George…obviously not a whistle blower or a rebel.”

    Most of your comment seems to say that Monbiot is wrong about nuclear, and compromised by family-needs/corporate-work. Fair, if debatable, points. But what do you mean by the whistle blower line? Are you suggesting he lies to keep his job? Do you have anything to back this up (beyond not agreeing with him)?

  54. @Nevermind
    Just to explain further my above question. I absolutely distrust the corporate media and agree that anyone who writes for it is compromised to some degree or other. However, although Monbiot may lie by omission I do not know him as someone who overtly lies and therefore I do hold store in what he writes. To dismiss everyone who writes for corporate media as a liar is too simple.

  55. @Phil. Far from calling him a liar, he is meticulous in his research, I think he has been using his column selectively, pleasing certain views. For example his story on a right wing insurrection or the political system.


    It is incomplete, he could have been much harder hitting and most likely was able to back up much more than this timid piece.
    I agree with his not so timid response to a poster question ‘ so, what’s to be done George’

    He answered’

    Only three solutions: mobilise, mobilise, mobilise. Do nothing alone. Don’t start a group if one exists already. Join, protest, march, demonstrate’

    I feel as if he has changed his personal outlook as to the effectiveness of the actions he is promoting and that this is normal for anyone who has started a family, that we are all in some kind of dependency loop, despite the article he’s written and the many valid protests he’s been on. I feel as if George must come Home one day and its not too far off.

    I’m in disagreement with his nuclear stance and expect him to write a long article on the Fukushima outfall and future resolve to this industry in the wake of another disaster, George is not a foe or liar, just a tad off course.

  56. “In a few years, like the Maoris who took the bible but lost the land to UK missionaries, powerful, atheist Asians will rule the UK, but the indigenous people of this country will have Islam. Inshallah.” Guano, somewhere above.

    Here we go again. Inveigling itself into every thread. Is this the ‘Genocide in Leicester’ theory, or the ‘Lizards in Hounslow’ Theory?

    So, on the one hand, we are slammed for being religious fundos, and on the other, for being atheists. A little like, ‘they take all our jobs’ and then also ‘they scrounge benefits’.

    Now then, now then… how’s about this then: We witness a powerful paedophile and his helpers on national TV for decades, given knighthoods, OBEs, open access to children’s hospitals and residential homes, the lot and everything covered-up – and guess what, Jimmy Savile was not Asian! Shock! Horror!


    Villager, at 11:53 pm on 14.10.12, thanks very much.

    Mary, at 8:33am on 15.10.12, the Taliban don’t need anyone to ‘give them a bad name’. They do things and say that they’ve done them and then celebrate doing them – they are, what they say they are.

    Except, of course, for the basic fact that they are the creation and instrument of the Pakistani Military-Security state (a military-security state consistently supported in every way by the USA/UK for over five decades). Not every act of theirs is determined by the Pak Military-Security and they got somewhat out of control during the latter part of Musharraf’s rule, but in essence, in Pakistan, they are the shock troops that keep uppity civilians in line. The growing tyranny of the Islamists in Pakistan enables – facilitates – continued de facto military rule.

    The shooting of Malalai will result in no real action, there will be no change in policy. The generals and their paramilitary cohorts didn’t give a hoot about having the Governor of Punjab shot dead, and his son later kidnapped, after he criticised the blasphemy laws, so they wouldn’t think twice before organising the shooting of some peasant girl. Think: Central American death squads. That’s the model. That’s no accident. All the generals were trained in the USA (School of the Americas or whatever it’s called now, the Hemispheric Institute – as though it were a weather forecasting body – or some such malevolent euphemism) or UK (Sandhurst), by the militaries of those countries and by the CIA. AS you know, it’s called neo-colonialism.

    So, we have NATO killing civilians and the Pakistan Army/their Islamist paramilitaries killing civilians – what a choice, eh? And both NATO and the Pakistan military will engage in PR stunts to obscure their real provenance/epistemology, which is, of course, the will to power.

  57. Suhayl.

    Whats your polital formula?

  58. Malala Yousafzai: meanwhile, somewhere else,


    “Assassinations”, eh? Someone’s decided to tell it like it is, then.

  59. I think two things influenced George Monbiot to change his stance. One was the emergence of the “Green Nuclear” intellectuals, including James Lovelock.

    The other was a result of the polarisation in the debate about nuclear power. Monbiot is quite right to point out the amount of poor “science” and scaremongering promoted by the anti-nuclear power campaigners.

    There is a knee-jerk response of “all nuclear is bad” that is quite prevalent. I’m considering returning to university to study nuclear engineering. I’ve become very interested in the possibility of designing nuclear reactors to “burn up” the “spent fuel”, thus finding a solution to the stockpiles of nuclear “waste”, and generating a lot of electricity in the process. Many people display an immediate suspicion and abhorrence to this idea; it’s “nuclear” so it must be “bad”.

    It’s almost impossible to be regarded as moderate in the nuclear power debate. Each camp identifies a moderate as being on the opposite side.

  60. It’s not even that Monbiot can find some novel or compelling justification for his turnaround. It’s nothing startling, just the old ‘the lights will go out’ fearmongering line as trialled by Bernard Ingham in his latter role as hireling nuclear energy lobbyist, a decade or more ago. Is he still alive and channelling Mrs Thatcher? I’d rather have any number of weather events and natural disasters than one more nuclear accident, the cumulative dosage is mounting. Overlooked again and again is the high probability of our and most coastally located nuclear plants being inundated and ending up distant offshore smoking ruins, with modest rises in sea levels, freak waves or coastal erosion. It might be that with our past dalliances and escapades with powerful nuclear horror, we have already sown the seeds of our extinction. The Government’s plans for new bubbling cauldrons of death all over the country has multi-party support: like invasion of Iraq did. When they sing the same tired songs from the same song sheet, terrible things usually happen, the decisions so misguided and short-sighted that even blame must be apportioned in advance.

  61. Cl;ark, nuclear is fine, as long as its Thorium and molten salt reactors, but the intention of our current and past operators were to produce weapons grade plutonium in a world riveted by cold war and obsessed with being bigger and better than then other side.

    If Britain has the largest latent capacity to produce benign alternative energy from its natural environment, without the need of nuclear power or long term obligation to recessive and active waste, should we be forced into a pro plutonium straight jacket when we full well know that the end result is a planned indiscriminate annihilation.

    We do know that the use of nuclear weapons is theoretically illegal as it will definitely pollute and involve third parties, so is the decisive planning to do more of the same also illegal?

    This is O/T just in from a friend, would love to know what Craig heard about this move to enrich the Met.

  62. And as so aptly tried and tested by their favourite news rag, both party political giants are normal, they conform to the rest of society in their daily habits.

    Gideon, Oh Gideon, have you brought your favourite whips…..

  63. For oneself, Monbiot, even if he is right on the environmental side of the nuclear debate, there is a huge deficit of nuclear power, in its current incarnation, that he neglects: the power of the state.

    Isn’t nuclear power the very symbol of the power of the modern state? Invisible to the eye, immensely powerful compared to the individual, unaccountable to the electorate, produced in maximum security installations by esoterically trained personnel, prone to concealing operational failures, downplaying risks (through use of sympathetic ‘objective’ scientists, aggressive PR, etc) and so on. Not to mention the industry being an unholy alliance of the private and the public, a brilliant example of the ‘too big to fail’ model, along with the public bearing the external costs (massive pollution, enormous startup and decommissioning fees) and also providing lavish subsidies at every step. There is also the vulgar socio-economic fact that the Monbiots of the world can afford to live far away (relatively) from sites of nuclear production.

    If Monbiot was arguing for some corresponding paradigm shift that would democratize the production of nuclear power, then I would have more sympathy for his argument. But to transfer one’s allegiance to nuclear power without doing that, is to simultaneously affirm one’s faith in the nuclear power industry, and that, to me, is ludicrous, particularly when one considers Monbiot’s gaze clears up considerably when he writes about the institutional rot and democratic shortfalls of contemporary UK society.

  64. Suhayl Saadi, ++ for your comment of 15 Oct, 11:17 am.

  65. Clark: All nuclear is bad, this isn’t a knee-jerk response. Glad to have been of assistance. And don’t call me a Luddite or I’ll smash up your machines.

  66. Cryptonym at 15 Oct, 12:36 pm

    “It might be that with our past dalliances and escapades with powerful nuclear horror, we have already sown the seeds of our extinction. The Government’s plans for new bubbling cauldrons of death all over the country…”

    This is exactly this sort of exaggeration that has alienated Monboit and others like him from the anti-nuclear camp.

    The argument has become so polarised that it is difficult to make sense of it. The anti-nuclear body make it sound as though harnessing renewable power is a simple proposition, and they don’t give proper credence to the dangers in other methods of power production.

    Even the worst estimates of deaths from the nuclear power industry are in a similar range to the deaths from other power production industries, on a deaths per unit energy comparison.

    But there is the “waste” already produced to clean up. We can’t dispose of that if we abandon the development of nuclear technology, which seems to be what the anti-nuclear lobby are aiming for.

  67. Nevermind, current power reactors are not used to produce weapon material. The old UK Magnox reactors were dual purpose as was Chernobyl, but the current, much larger reactors are not. There is more than enough plutonium for the warmongers already; it long since turned from an acquisition problem to a disposal problem. I think we’ve got about sixty tonnes of it at Sellotape.

  68. kingfelix, ++ for your comment of 15 Oct, 12:53 pm. Yes, decisions about nuclear technology need to be put back in the hands of the people, but with the current polarisation it would be difficult to have any sensible debate. Firstly, full disclosure is needed. The government and industry need to be transparent and accountable. Of course, they’re going to be reluctant to do that, partly because it will expose the vested interests concerned, but also because they know that the anti-nuclear lobby will fall on them like a ton of bricks, exploiting people’s scientific ignorance to score cheap points.

    The fight is going to need an armistice before any sensible debate can occur.

  69. I’m with Monbiot on nuclear energy – though not quite as shrill. Renewables are beginning to prove their commercial viability – notably in the rapid spread of small wind turbines augmenting farm supplies in the countryside as well as in the major companies’ investment in offshore wind farms. But the case is far from made, and commercial pressures can be pretty daunting, eg:


    Until the green solutions become general, with the next generation of developments emerging from laboratories into production, we need a stable and continuous source of power which at any rate does not excessively increase CO2 emissions. Ideally, it does not originate from the Caspian or Saudi Arabia. Nuclear power fits the bill, unfortunately. As an interim solution only.

    Mind you, there is a prevalent mindset that insists that 90% of the cars you see on the road, though designed to hold four people at least (and in the case of 4X4’s, six people, three large dogs, the daughter’s pony and several cases of Bordeaux) are occupied only by the driver. That buses are for the old and destitute. That supermarkets and shopping malls have to be heated to 25 Centigrade throughout the year. That…the list is endless. Obvious conclusion: energy is undervalued in this society. Its cost needs to go up. And then those wonderful market forces will happily encourage less costly energy sources

  70. Come on Cryptonym, aren’t you going to suggest that the “spent” fuel be “shot into the Sun”? Or have the anti-nukes finally worked out that trying to lift all our nuclear mess through our own atmosphere is a really bad idea?

  71. “Obvious conclusion: energy is undervalued in this society. Its cost needs to go up.”

    Hoo hoo, watch it Komodo; you’ll have the “The UN Is A Tool Of The Illuminati Planning To Kill Billions” lobby on your back!

  72. And this is why nuclear should be taken out of the hands of governments and their fund-raisers. They tell lies. The myth perpetuated for more than half a century that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped to end the Second World War is total bunkum.


  73. Correction to my own comment of 15 Oct, 1:20 pm:

    “Yes, decisions about nuclear technology need to be put back in the hands of the people…”

    Decisions about nuclear technology need to be put in the hands of the people for the first time ever. But the people also need sufficient scientific literacy to hold a meaningful debate.

  74. Hoo hoo, watch it Komodo; you’ll have the “The UN Is A Tool Of The Illuminati Planning To Kill Billions” lobby on your back!

    No room. I already have “Lizards From Mars Did 9/11″ and “Craig Murray Is A Tool of the Rothschilds” there. Perhaps on a foreleg?

  75. Thanks Suhayl. I bow to your greater knowledge. However, the taliban are portrayed as the enemy in the corporate media. Presumably that is what we are being told to accept. Anything which adds to the given image is welcomed I assume. I have just heard Ms Burley of Sky News spit the word ‘taliban’ out when she gave the headline – ‘emergency treatment in the uk for young girl shot in Pakistan by the taliban’.

    Another question. How has the human condition been advanced by the jump from the 23 mile high capsule? I note that Red Bull were one of the sponsors. Every day I collect five or six empty discarded Red Bull tins when out with my dog. Just saying.

  76. Now that we are completely off topic.

    Has anyone else noticed that the so called high altitude jump on Sunday was faked?

    If you look very closely at this video you can see how it was done.


  77. John Goss, yes, the meme that nukes ended WWII has been repeated for decades, but it has always been obvious to anyone who thought about it that it was mere propaganda. A single demonstration on an unpopulated region would have been entirely sufficient.

  78. V droll Derek.

    Cameron and Salmond are kept in detention after school to write their lines.

  79. Scouse Billy

    15 Oct, 2012 - 2:20 pm


    Any knowledge/views on the Zinsser affadavit?

    i.e. nuclear test over the Baltic in Oct ’44

  80. From Mary:

    “However, the taliban are portrayed as the enemy in the corporate media. Presumably that is what we are being told to accept”

    The danger from propaganda is multi-directional. It not only obscures the truth, it suggests a direction to react in when the propaganda is recognised as such. But propaganda is constructed on the basis of what position it is convenient to project, so there is no reason to assume that propaganda points directly away from the truth.

    The Taliban are a convenient target for propaganda. I expect that the UN Security Council powers would like to keep India and Pakistan’s nukes pointing directly at each other, so they concentrate on the Taliban to avoid confronting Pakistan directly.

  81. More on Malala.

    The Staged Malala Yousafzai Story: You’re With Malala or You’re With the Turrrrorrists

    which links to

    The Staged Malala Yousafzai Story: CBS Crops Image to Hide Malala Walking to Chopper with Father

    Thanks to author Scott Creighton.

  82. Never heard of it Billy, but I thought you believed that some Tesla device could just snap all nuclear blast into hyperspace where it could be neutralised with sodium bicarbonate.

    Give me a reputable link and I’ll read it. If it’s another of your time-wasters….

  83. Scouse Billy

    15 Oct, 2012 - 2:59 pm

    Your first five words would have sufficed.

    Ah well I can’t reach sh/p-eople that far below the curve…

  84. The current drive is to monopolise and control energy supplies and operators, the real idea of alternative generation being taken up by communities for their own benefit has not really taken off yet, he says whilst the wind and rain is pummelling his windowpane and his plastic greenhouse is disintegrating from the amounts of energy available.

    Rivers, streams, estuaries, tidal sea currents, wave heights, their motion, wind, solar, more reservoirs, a national water distribution system…..the amounts of rainwater that falls annually.. should some of that be held back to generate peak time electricity?

    I argue that what is given as facts on consumption is wrong, that we do not know our real consumption levels because our mainly older housing stock is not updated insulated and or energy efficient. Without a parallel national energy saving campaign running next to the promotion of community energy generating schemes most suitable to a respective area, we would be blowing new smoke after old, the idea is to come away from fossil burning.

    Concentrated solar power is such a dramatically good idea using the latest available technology, a simple alternative that is cheaper than nuclear, more reliable as the sun shines all the time in deserts, with alternative power sources supplying the nights needs.

    I also have an argument with sustainability, whilst I know for sure that CSP would be there for a long time, I could not rely on fissile material for longer than 150 years, at a very long stretch. All issues surrounding nuclear fissile materials add to our already stretch health and safety list in society, it is exorbitantly expensive to protect society from nuclear radiation, we know that even low level rads. can have cell mutating effects, never mind the enriched materials used in nuclear reactors.

    Fallujahs birth defects have not gone up by a factor of ten, compared to pre Iraq war times, for nothing, its was the heavy use of depleted Uranium munitions we used to flatten the City that has lead to this, so why would we want to perpetuate more nuclear sources which will go wrong, we had a few accidents now to know this, when we can do different.

    The only reason to persist with nuclear power is commercial and military but this debate is never had in public and any incoming Government must swear to keep the nuclear status quo.

    One should not do so, I would swear to dismantle it, bit by barking mad bit.

    Except for the emergency reactor, should all else fail, sea currents stop, tides are asleep, no wind for weeks, the sun is on holiday and worse off all, the gas has run out on our patio heaters.

  85. O/T a great debate this morning, for once.

    Will we soon face up to a decriminalised situation in Britain, I’m sure that the lick spittle this thread is about would love to use this emotive issue to smirk and schmooze himself into the Washington DC prohibition circles, if they still exist, have not been taken over by coffee&crack mornings.

    My very public thanks to prof. Nutt and MS sufferer Julie, both who made their points very eloquently. thanks also to the Met for sending a lower than normally gifted officer to confuse their stance even further. His use of tabloid terms was duly noted.


  86. Clark.
    If you deny the Conspiracy theories, what is your own theory.
    Please enlighten us?

    Just human nature hoo hoo.

  87. I’d never heard of Sunny Hundal until I googled him. Seems to have abandoned his cultural heritage, anyway (no beard, no hair, no turban, no dagger). As Harry’s Place – no fan of Craig’s btw – noticed, his political allegiances seem to be disposable as well:

    Sunny Hundal, the Labour Tory Lib Dem Labour supporting blogger…


    There is a Hundal video there too. Warning: extremely silly, and cameraman is not always upright.

    Apparently he’s going to vote Green in the first round of the London elections – try to keep up, Harry – and is a right-on feminist from way back.

    “What is the point of Sunny Hundal?” seems to address the matter better.

  88. “Decisions about nuclear technology need to be put in the hands of the people for the first time ever. But the people also need sufficient scientific literacy to hold a meaningful debate.”

    As a matter of fact popular attitudes towards nuclear power have been very generous, optimistic and dangerously trusting. Mistakenly, in my view, the public still gives nuclear power the benefit of the doubt. And assumes that those who control it are careful and public spirited.
    What is needed in public debate is a proper distrust of the ruling class and its cannibalistic practices. If people were allowed to examine both the real economic costs of this form of power generation and the incalculable potential dangers it poses to the planet they would insist on the careful and exact dismantling of nuclear infrastructure, and a rigorous cost benefit analysis before any new experiments were permitted.
    At the very least they would insist that no further waste should be produced before an explanation of how it was to be disposed of had been furnished.
    The suggestion that “scientific literacy” should be a qualification for participation in this vital debate is question begging of the most basic kind.

  89. Mary, thanks. I think you’re absolutely right to be highly skeptical of anything the US/UK propaganda organs tell us. We see how they helped create and continue to supply and arm Islamist paramilitaries – according to Ahmed Rashid (Pakistani journalist who wrote a book on the Taliban and who has written several good ones since), the USA helped bankroll – paid salaries of Taliban officials, etc. – the Taliban right up until the autumn of 2001 and we see what they are doing now in Libya/Syria. Mark Curtis, as you’ll know, is good on this area (‘Secret Affairs: Britain’s Collusion with Radical Islam’).

    So, as we know, the mil-sec complex of the USA/UK (both directly via Special Forces, contractors and the CIA/MI6), trains and arms oppressive military regimes when and where it suits them to do so and also paramilitary forces, likewise. At times, they will be doing both simultaneously in a single ‘theatre’, supporting various interests, some of whom may be in conflict with one another (think of the way they support the Karimov regime in Uzbekistan but also support the Islamist paramilitaries that travel to and from Central Asia and other parts to Libya/Syria to help unseat the regimes/ cause mayhem there).

    Pakistan’s systemic co-creation of/ co-support for these paramilitaries is a useful strategic instrument against Russia and China (though in the past, and maybe still, who knows, for their own strategic reasons, China too has supported the Taliban, India, the so-called ‘Northern Alliance’) in Central Asia and by continuing the incipient state of war b/w Pakistan and India, also helps prevent a unified regional political/economic force developing in South Asia (India, Pakistan, etc.). And also, the people they – the politicians (eg. Stephen “I’m a taxi” Byres) and generals (eg. allegedly Richard Dannatt et al, as exposed in The Sunday Times yesterday) – work for, can continue to sell lots of weapons to India and Pakistan. The USA also colluded with Pakistan in its illegal acquisition of nukes. Think of Brzezinski’s statements in recent years on these, and related, matters, which basically amount to acknowledging an ongoing policy of divide-and-rule.

    So, one day, in ‘Af-Pak’ (as the imperialists like to call it), the Islamist paramilitaries are designated ‘ultimate evil’, the next, in Libya/Syria, they are ‘freedom-fighters’ with ‘air-guns and pick-up trucks’. What they are, of course, is tactically useful to imperialist interests. The Pakistani mil-sec complex is one part of that ‘great game’ driven by international capital (of which they are a part). Big bucks, Red Bull, right enough! It’s the story of capitalism.

  90. Chris2, the amount of scientific illiteracy in the debate is staggering. People don’t know why our current reactors produce so much waste. They don’t understand that longer half-lives correspond with lower radioactivity. They don’t know about natural background radiation. All of this ignorance has been exploited by both sides. What we have now is an uncomfortable stand-off, each side preventing any progress in the other.

    “As a matter of fact popular attitudes towards nuclear power have been very generous, optimistic and dangerously trusting.”

    I disagree. Only a small proportion of the population are enthusiastic about nuclear power. Many accept it grudgingly because they are unconvinced by the alternatives, and many are strongly opposed.

    “they would insist on the careful and exact dismantling of nuclear infrastructure, and a rigorous cost benefit analysis before any new experiments were permitted.”

    Eh? We have no effective disposal method for “spent” fuel. We can dismantle the reactors, but we can’t dispose of the hot bits. We need more experiments.

    Chris2, you should be opposing the crap reactors we use (which the government want to build more of), not opposing nuclear technology in its entirety. Don’t you imagine that early humans had this debate about fire?

  91. Talking of hot bits (no…not them), heat exchangers in the high-level waste ponds could probably heat half of Cumbria. Is it waste?

  92. Jay, I’m pretty much in agreement with views such as those of Craig Murray, Noam Chomsky, Media Lens (the site more than the message board), Richard Stallman, etc.. I think that governments are too heavily influenced by Big Money in the form of corporations and finance, especially in their foreign policies which are much less susceptible to voter influence. And I think that the major force for the manipulation of democracy is the corporate media.

    On “conspiracy theories”, I’m in agreement with Julian Assange; these whacky theories can be proven neither true nor false, and they serve to distract from important issues that we can have some influence upon.

    Look at Suhayl’s contribution; this is excellent analysis, born of a thorough understanding of the area, its people, and their history. It does not reflect the corporate mainstream façade. Neither does it postulate some invisible, untouchable conspiracy pulling all the strings of every involved party.

  93. Komodo, of course it isn’t waste. That’s why I keep putting “waste” and “spent” in inverted commas. It’s fuel that is between 1% and 3% used. Using the other 97% to 99% would simultaneously neutralise the “waste”, and produce 30 to 100 times as much energy as has already been extracted from it; more, with more efficient power stations. That’s why I’m so keen to react the damn stuff.

  94. Nevermind, be careful about assigning the birth defects in war zones to depleted uranium (DU). Modern warfare releases a multitude of toxic chemicals; I have seen strong arguments that DU is not the cause. Personally, I’m undecided.

    Of course it’s easy to argue against DU because of the prevalent Nuclear = Bad belief-set. But if you convict the wrong person, the real murderer gets away with it.

    Rather than focussing on DU, it make far more sense to argue against war itself.

  95. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    15 Oct, 2012 - 5:20 pm

    Clark; I’ve always believed depleted uranium is an oxymoron. When those atomized particulates get absorbed or ingested, can it be safer than say, asbestos? I’ve often associated it with Gulf-War syndrome.

  96. technicolour

    15 Oct, 2012 - 5:38 pm

    Re Sunny Hundall: I’ve been quite exercised recently by the number of people who are prepared to say things like ‘war is good for the economy’. Even when you point them towards Nordhaus (who worked out pre-Iran that it wasn’t; google William Nordhaus, economy, Iran) or more recent summaries like this:
    they don’t acknowledge it, or reconsider, or retract. You get the feeling that they will carry on saying it; it’s part of their programme.

    The worst thing was that I was complaining about this to a friend of mine and he said:
    “But war is good for the economy”.
    And it took at least fifteen minutes before he backed down, and then grudgingly.

  97. Nevermind at 15 Oct, 3:03 pm:

    “Rivers, streams, estuaries, tidal sea currents, wave heights, their motion, wind, solar, more reservoirs, a national water distribution system…”

    I, for one, don’t want little whining machines and interconnecting pylons all over our countryside and wildernesses. I’ll put up with it if needs be, but I’d prefer something better.

    “…we do not know our real consumption levels because our mainly older housing stock is not updated insulated and or energy efficient.”

    Capitalism and the market economy themselves are hideously energy-inefficient. Commercialism that produces baubles designed to lose their lustre and break, a labour market that moves workers hundreds of miles (Mary’s boiler fitters), thousands wasting their live away in traffic jams, or turned to purée on our roads, etc…

    “Concentrated solar power is such a dramatically good idea […] cheaper than nuclear, more reliable…”

    Yes, this is a matter of development, and it would be nice to see the funding of, say, one new PWR nuclear power station put into developing solar concentration instead. That would make a huge difference.

    “I also have an argument with sustainability, […] I could not rely on fissile material for longer than 150 years, at a very long stretch.”

    Well, there’s at least a millennium’s worth of thorium, but I’m not advocating that particularly. I just want the existing mess cleaned up.

    “…it is exorbitantly expensive to protect society from nuclear radiation,”

    Yes, it is, the way we do nuclear at present, because it produces so much hot crap.

    “The only reason to persist with nuclear power is commercial and military but this debate is never had in public and any incoming Government must swear to keep the nuclear status quo.”

    The reasons are commercial, not military. Each government looks at the term until the next election. In that very limited time-frame, it is much cheaper to keep nuclear power stations that are partly paying for themselves. The alternative invokes two costs; decommissioning the power stations, and building replacements.

    “I would swear to dismantle it, bit by barking mad bit.”

    …And that has to include committing to developing and building reactors that can dispose of the “spent” fuel.

  98. Ben Franklin, I don’t know. DU is less radioactive than natural uranium (obviously). It’s a toxic heavy metal, but you can hold it in your hand without danger. Maybe it’s many times worse when powdered. But all manner of chemicals get released in warfare. Is DU the birth defect culprit? I don’t know. But if we could restrain our governments from war, we’d be stopping the birth defects, whatever is responsible.

  99. Technicolour: “War is good for the economy”.

    The economy? Whose economy? It does very well for a tiny minority, certainly.

  100. @Technicolour

    “War is good for the economy” – no. I think there are good grounds to suggest that this is not so. However, as we know, foreign wars are extremely lucrative for a small section of the economy and the perpetuation of these foreign wars becomes an end in itself, and, as such, is highly detrimental to the functioning of democracy in the home nation. There is also the linked case, which is that the war-making industries drive out other forms of wealth creation, so it comes to pass that there are large zones where the only employer is the military and its supporting web of contractors.

    “Today, the Department, headed by Secretary of Defense Leon E. Panetta, is not only in charge of the military, but it also employs a civilian force of thousands. With over 1.4 million men and women on active duty, and 718,000 civilian personnel, we are the nation’s largest employer. Another 1.1 million serve in the National Guard and Reserve forces. More than 2 million military retirees and their family members receive benefits.”

    If one agrees to the above, and replaces “foreign wars” with “imperialism”, then you get one of the three classic explanations in international relations for the export of capitalism (alongside Luxemburg and Lenin). The writer in question was E J Hobson, working at the beginning of the 20th Century. He swore blind that an imperial project would be devastating to British democracy, and events appear to have backed up his claims.

    We could also mention Smedley Butler’s ‘War is a Racket’, which should be on our minds in a week when it turns out that wearing a poppy is a sideshow to the main event, which is the fantastic networking opportunities that gathering for ceremonies of Remembrance can provide. (I see this chap has now fallen on his sword).


  101. technicolour

    15 Oct, 2012 - 5:59 pm

    Clark, yes, quite. But people who are parroting this seem to mean ‘their’ economy; the UK or US economy in general.

  102. “Any knowledge/views on the Zinsser affadavit?”

    Fascinating ScouseBilly, I went on reading about the Antarctica expedition as well.

  103. Clark.


    All these theories and talk if anything inspire me to be a better person.

  104. Suhayl,
    “The self-proclaimed leftists are not really leftist at all, they are corporate liberals, phonies. If they really were leftists, they would not be supporting any of the main parties, here or in the USA, as all the main parties now, more so than ever, are signed up to the same neoliberal economics.”
    For proof – watch this:-
    Obama – the con-charmer.

  105. Nevermind,

    “Fallujahs birth defects have not gone up by a factor of ten, compared to pre Iraq war times, for nothing, its was the heavy use of depleted Uranium munitions we used to flatten the City that has lead to this, so why would we want to perpetuate more nuclear sources which will go wrong, we had a few accidents now to know this, when we can do different.”

    Here is a current news reference: http://rt.com/news/birth-defects-iraq-report-385/

  106. Clarke: “The UN Is A Tool Of The Illuminati Planning To Kill Billions lobby ”

    Who are the lobby members? Can you list them out for us so that we all know who you mean, Clark.

    Or would you like me to?

  107. More on depleted uranium

    Iraqi Birth Defects: Fallujah And Basra Babies Brain Damaged After UK-US Bombardment, Study Finds

    The Huffington Post UK
    Jessica Elgot Posted: 15/10/2012 13:58


  108. The horrible reality of Boris Johnson:

    ‘There is, on the other hand, one living human being who would have perfectly fitted the bill. She has done more than just about anyone to preserve peace and democracy in Europe. It was her 87th birthday on Saturday and it would have been a nice thing if the Nobel committee had recognised her at last. It might have made up for the shameful decision by her university to refuse her an honorary doctorate – and we forget now that those ungracious Oxford dons were protesting about her decision to charge foreign students for university, when those very fees are now essential to higher education and keep the dons in sherry.

    Yes, instead of giving the prize to a clutch of ugly plate-glass office blocks in Brussels, the Nobel committee should have awarded it to Margaret Hilda Thatcher.’


  109. blah blah arise sir mon of biot nuke shill.
    count your areva blood money shekels george you will need it when cancer comes a calling.
    georgee boy won’t be using the flesh killers of the nhs that is a given.

    go drink the fukishima waters george go eat the japanese fish.
    give it to your children film it and we may change are minds until then you are just another chatham house scumbag

  110. Sunflower, I’m pretty sure that in Nevermind’s paragraph that you quoted, the word “not” was a typo.

    The RT report you linked to is not really about depleted uranium. The metal contaminants most mentioned are lead and mercury.

    A few excerpts from your eyreinternational link:

    “– and again this is out of the whole complex toxic battlefield where DU contributes –”

    “The human and environmental samples have been found to contain Depleted Uranium and abnormally high levels of the artificial transuranic isotope, 236U.”

    “A biological sample taken from one Al Basra citizen, who was exposed to the urban bombing campaign in that city, has an unusual composition of isotopes showing an enriched, as opposed to a depleted or natural, ratio of 235U/238U. The enriched uranium was found in a person exposed to and living adjacent to the same battlefield led by the British Desert Rats, south of Al Basra”

    War kills people, massively degrades their environment and destroys their livelihoods. The focus on DU is too narrow. You could campaign, and maybe get DU banned. War would be just as bad as ever.

  111. Scouse Billy

    15 Oct, 2012 - 8:34 pm

  112. Mary, your Huffington Post link is based on the same report as Sunflower’s RT article. It focusses on lead and mercury.

    Why are people so obsessed with depleted uranium? Have we been led astray to campaign about a distraction? Is it the knee-jerk “Nuclear = Bad” response?

    Campaign against war. Who cares what they make the weapons out of? Whatever they’re made of, you can be sure that very little ethical consideration went into their design. If it wasn’t DU, it would be some other component or material. Campaign against war!

  113. Clark @ 2.11 p.m. I also get the impression that when the US develops its latest range of weapons it feels the need to try them out on real people (other than its own people) to see just how ‘effective’ they are. We are seeing it with unmanned drones. As a result we are learning that there are a lot of ordinary non-military civilians dying because of these ‘Nazi-like’ experiments on people they consider to be inferior. I do hope to live to see the modern-day equivalent of the Nuremberg trials.

  114. @ Scouse Billy “Ah well I can’t reach sh/p-eople that far below the curve…”

    …I’m no huge follower of David Icke – his reptilian ‘thing’ unfortunately tends to diminish the otherwise great knowledge and insight he has, but the certain gentleman in the hat that can be seen sitting hosting this Icke event reminds me of a certain type of innate reaction.The right on anarchist girl that invades the stage at the start and calls Icke an anti semite is a great example of conforming to type too. As Alan Partridge would say, S.A.D


  115. Clark, thanks so much, I really appreciate it.

    Technicolour, Clark, yes, as Craig has mentioned on this blog somewhere recently, I think the economic impact on our societies – the financial crisis – of the vast cost – trillions of dollars/pounds – of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is being ignored by much of the MSM, certainly by the BBC et al. As with the banks, it seems that the economic costs of war are socialised, while the profits are privatised. Not that one would want to wage war, to kill people, for profit to our society – though that is precisely why, usually, they are waged, for someone’s profit (and we know whose).

    Which brings me to the proposed commemoration of the outbreak of WW1. It already feels nauseating, one can sense the unctuousness, the hypocrisy, the appeal to patriotism. It will be war, as pornography.

    The whole thing – WW1 – was a complete waste of life and was utterly unnecessary. It also may well have led to the ‘flu pandemic (a genuine pandemic, this, not like the one in 2009), which, in 1918-1919, killed more people, esp. young adults, than WW1.

    The only commemoration we ought to be having would be one in which on the radio, a child solemnly intones the full names of all those who died, on all sides – one would need a lot of children – serially, day and night, all over the world, for as long as it takes. And then, at the end, the last child would ask, “Why…?”

    And then we can all watch the excellent film version of ‘Oh, What a Lovely War!’ and, likewise, of ‘All Quiet on the Western Front’.

    No politicians, no generals, no priests: Donkeys, then, donkeys now.

  116. John Goss at 15 Oct, 9:00 pm: Yes, every war is a chance to show off the latest weapons. Advertising and consumption, two functions in one, moving money, at the time and in the future, into the pockets of the weapons manufacturers.

  117. Suhayl Saadi, 15 Oct, 9:18 pm

    ” As with the banks, it seems that the economic costs of war are socialised, while the profits are privatised.”


    Socialism for the rich and the elite entities, market economics for everyone else. Taxpayers pay for the wars, and the weapons manufacturers, the oil companies, the “reconstruction” contractors, and the suppliers of mercenaries like Xe rake in the private profits.

    It is no surprise that the “conspiracy” websites (for want of a better name) keep telling us that Left and Right is a false distraction, and everything can be fixed by aliens or “hidden ancient knowledge”. They are a force for the Right. They don’t want us to notice the direction of wealth redistribution. And they don’t want us to organise, protest, lobby or vote against the corrupted political “representatives”.

  118. Great bit of straw manning there Clark. Keep up the good work – as you were.

  119. Totally agree, Clark, at 9:48pm on 15.10.12.

  120. Chris Jones, thanks for the David Icke link; I’ve been watching it. I used to think that Icke was just somewhat eccentric. It turns out that he is loud, tense, domineering, overbearing, angry, anti-intellectual, and rude. He doesn’t listen and he shows no respect. Nearly every question from Richard Strange was met with Icke’s declaration that he does not care, expressed with increasing degrees of obscenity and hostility. I think Icke needs to master his internal “reptilian”. As do we all, to some degree.

    Icke has glimpsed a few truths, but has missed far more by imposing his ideas upon what he sees of the world. That shouldn’t surprise us. He is, after all, a performer, a minor celebrity. Projection of his ego is his bread and butter.

  121. Good Sunflower – I put the RT story om my web-site under Iraq.

    Lets hope the Beeb crashes – maybe we all should refuse to pay the license fee on the grounds folks of promoting funding pedophilia.

    The BBC failed to bite the bullet because it would have been a chink in the establishment’s armor. An establishment that ruined 30,40,50 years of young girls lives – bastards!

    I notice PressTV has been screwed by the EU. Seems like its time to take down my dish unless a few million votes can be accrued on Facebook. People power not. Just RT left upfront.

    Joining the youngsters in their rebellion is something I might consider.

  122. yes ike sure has some m15 types working for him constant deletion of emails his little helpers are probably in gchq.

    15-10-2012, 02:46 PM
    ex sheep
    Forum Advisor

    Join Date: Aug 2008
    Location: riding around
    Posts: 13,268
    You have received an Spam Notice at David Icke’s Official Forums
    Dear tony roma,

    You have received an infraction at David Icke’s Official Forums.

    Reason: Repeated Abuse Of Forum
    Trying to be smart again, now you are taking a break from this forum.

    This infraction is worth 17 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

    Original Post:
    Looks like david is getting his little helpers in to clean up the forum.
    Ohh dear.

    Epstein is a convicted paedophile with connections with
    peter mandelson.
    Not hearsay but fucking fact.

    Warnings are for school.
    Do not allow the thread if you are gonna do a poxy containment job.
    Or is this just another mi5 fishing game like craig freedom of speech murray
    All the best,
    David Icke’s Official Forums
    Now they are laughing WITH him, not AT him

  123. The future of democracy globally:

    “Last week, billionaire CEO David Siegel, who runs a timeshare empire, threatened to fire employees if President Obama is reelected in November, saying in an email, “the economy doesn’t currently pose a threat to your job, what does threaten your job however is another 4 years of the same Presidential administration.”

    And Siegel is not alone in pushing his employees to cast their vote a certain way. MSNBC’s Chris Hayes reported today on another CEO — Arthur Allen of ASG Software Solutions — who said in an email to his employees that they’d only have themselves to blame if they lose their jobs if Obama wins.”

    We are being sold down the river by our “elected” representatives.


  124. Clark, there used to be a 1980s ‘Indie’ band in Scotland, I think, called ‘Richard Strange and the Engine Room’. They released, among other things, a single called, ‘Damascus’. I tried to get hold of this single but even Stephen Pastel, of (other Indie band, The Pastels) when he workd in a record shop, couldn’t get hold of it for me. Strange obviously did/does many other things. How interesting and… pleasantly strange to come across his work again – if indeed this is the same ‘Richard Strange’. Might there there be two – Richard Stranger and Richard Stranger? One for a late night glass of porter.


  125. “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

    Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

    I think Icke’s “reptilians” are the result of him externalising and personifying his, and society’s, own badness. “The Conspiracy” is an alluring concept. It absolves the believers from everything but “waking up the sheeple”. No political decisions to be made (“all politics is the same”), no point in protesting or writing to your MP, no need to study or submit to any discipline, nothing to do but read nonsense and feel good about how “enlightened” you’ve become. Lazy.

  126. Suhayl, yes, that’s Richard Strange; same person. Look on his website under “News”. He was at the Bestival festival where Icke was icking.

    (“Icking” is what my mother called it when the dogs whine to go out for a walk.)

  127. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    16 Oct, 2012 - 12:22 am

    “If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.”

    Yes. It seems it is only evil influence which makes humans do bad things. But everyone rationalizes their actions as just and right, unaware of the bigger picture, or willing to ignore it.

    We all have evil in us. It’s called free will and self-interest. That is all.

  128. Try some Lloyd Pye – “Everything You Know Is Wrong”:


  129. Lets throw in some human microchipping agenda and Rosa Koire as well



  130. “UK food banks used by record number, says Trussell Trust”

  131. Twenty two seconds into Rosa Koire Behind the Green Mask:

    “And I’ve been travelling all around the country talking to primarily Tea Parties, 9/12 groups, property rights groups, people like yourselves…”

    The Tea Party we know about; a trick played on ordinary US Americans by the Koch Brother billionaires. The “9/12 Project” was set up by Glenn Beck:


    ‘In June 2010, investigative reporter Alexander Zaitchik released a critical biography titled Common Nonsense: Glenn Beck and the Triumph of Ignorance, with a title mocking Beck’s work, Common Sense. In an interview about the book, Zaitchik theorized, “Beck’s politics and his insatiable hunger for money and fame are not mutually exclusive”, while stating: “Beck’s true religion is not Patriotism, Mormonism, or Conservatism. His true religion is cross-platform self-marketing … According to Beck’s worldview, there’s no inherent contradiction between his sophisticated instinct for self-promotion, his propagandist rodeo clown act, his self-image as a media mogul, and his professed belief system. I think he actually believes that God wants him to make a ton of money and become this huge celebrity by fear mongering and generally doing whatever it takes in the media to promote right-wing causes.”‘

    Chris Jones, I really think these sorts of people don’t represent you. You’re being taken in by lies designed to appeal to the US Christian Right. Fine, believe it if you want, but remember it stands for no taxes, no public services, no public healthcare, no education, private security, no control over big business, etc. etc. I don’t think that’s what you want.

    Scouse Billy, same goes for you. You’re a left-winger; what are you soaking up these right-wing lies for?

  132. What’s the betting on this dreadful woman (I watched her live in the ‘Commons’ yesterday – arrogant, sarcastic, bombastic…) sending another Briton off to the US incarceration machine or will she decide to recommend him for trial here?

    Gary McKinnon extradition: Theresa May due to rule on hacker
    Mr McKinnon’s lawyers say they will apply for a judicial review if Mrs May decides to extradite him

    Profile: Gary McKinnon
    ’10 years of zombified life’
    No early ruling in McKinnon case

    Home Secretary Theresa May is due to announce whether computer hacker Gary McKinnon will be extradited to the US.

    Mr McKinnon, who admits accessing US government computers but claims he was looking for evidence of UFOs, has been fighting extradition since 2006.

    The 46-year-old, who has been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, could face 60 years in jail if convicted in the US.

    Meanwhile, reports suggest that Mrs May will also announce changes to Britain’s extradition arrangements with the US.

  133. Picture this, The City of London is like a medieval castle or a Nineteenth
    Century manor house estate.

    There is a opening in the wall around the great house wher scraps are destributed and favours can be had.

    The whole estate is in servitude to the central hun and people travel for miles to benefit.

    As long as the City is there we will continue, if that hub goes!

    On a side note we have Alfred the Great amongst many examples of decency in these lands

  134. Could it be that our lives are somewhat limited by the extreme emotions of our predecesors and is our emotional content and direction held by these extremes.

    As a believer in Jungian theory the collective conscious not unlike our others in tje animal kingdom helps us in our migratory path.
    For example Jesus.
    Rothschild taking the Bank of England.
    Bobby Moore lifting the World cup.
    Michael Angelo.

    Are we not only limited by our emotions they orchestrate our lives.

  135. Cameron was speaking at the United Jewish Appeal gathering at the Guildhall last night. Spoke about the increase in Iran’s nuclear stockpile. Issued threats that the EU will impose harsher sanctions on Iran.


    ‘Now is not the time to strike Iran Cameron tells Israel’ or Leave it for later if the screw tightening does not work.

    ‘Nothing is off the table’, is the BBC version.

    Like Blair, Cameron can be in two or three different places in one day. Yesterday in Edinburgh woth Salmond and then back in London for this speech/dinner.

  136. FYI

    Who they are. Back to Levy, Sacks et al and the lead Davis of XStrata.

    Who’s at the top of UJIA?

    Mick Davis UJIA Chairman
    Mick Davis is Chief Executive of Xstrata plc, a diversified mining and metals company listed on the London Stock Exchange and is in the top 20 of the FTSE100 with a market value of circa $65 billion.

    Michael Wegier Chief Executive
    Michael Wegier, who made aliyah from London in 1989, has spent the last five years as Executive Director of Melitz educational institute in Jerusalem, where he was responsible for setting and implementing the overall strategy of the organisation, fundraising and the development of strategic partnerships with major Israeli and overseas Jewish organisations.


  137. I, for one, don’t want little whining machines and interconnecting pylons all over our countryside and wildernesses. I’ll put up with it if needs be, but I’d prefer something better. (Clark)

    Well, no. Who does? But is that an accurate statement of the options, and how far does it differ from what we have already? Little whining machines cover our roads, and our roads go just about everywhere the terrain permits. Local power generation, if it can be made dropout-free, means that pylons can be a thing of the past. Maybe it’s wind farms you don’t like? In mediaeval times England was infested with sustainable energy plant: windmills which spoiled the view and made a whooshing noise, and water mills disrupting aquatic ecosystems* for the benefit of greedy capitalist millers. The streets of towns were knee deep in the waste from the four-legged transport system…you can’t have your energy cake and eat it.

    *as we would say now

  138. May has no option but to extradite McKinnon under the existing (Blair’s) legislation, unless either (a) both houses of Parliament agree to a court hearing, or (b) medical or psychiatric grounds can be found which are likely to lead to the death of the extraditee.

    May will be deciding on a psychiatric report which asserts that McKinnon is likely to commit suicide if extradited. If Cameronclegg are unhappy about the unilateral extradition treaty, and want to delete the requirement for Parliamentary approval of court hearings in such cases, that is all to the good IMO and credit where credit is due.

  139. Very interesting Telegraph blog piece on US – UK relations, with possible relevance to the stated plans to review the extradition treaty:

    But the biggest obstacle to trans-Atlantic relations is probably snobbery. Ever since Andrew Mitchell shouted down a policeman for having the impertinence to ask him to dismount from his bicycle, the Tories have been forced to address their inner snob. But no one has yet commented on how that prejudice extends to Americans. There is a view in the upper echelons of the Tory Party that they must be everything that the Republican Party is not, and that this contrast will define their own propriety. Religion, tax cuts, nationalism – these are the things that the uncouth Americans go in for and as long as British Conservatism remains secular, reasonable, rational, cosmopolitan and liberal, then it is self-evidently superior. If you want proof of this consensus, ask a senior Tory his opinion of Sarah Palin. But let him put his Martini down first, in case he spills it when laughing.


    There’s a link to a Sunny Hundal piece in there, incidentally. Not a very good one, and well behind the field.

  140. Gary McKinnon and Richard O’Dwyer face the same awful and unbalanced extradition law as Talha Ahsan and Babar Ahmed. Talha Ahsan has Asperger’s Syndrome. He and Ahmed and their lawyers have not even been allowed to see the evidence. It’s shocking.

    Gary McKinnon, I think, has admitted hacking into US military systems, so there is a stronger case against him. The powers-that-be tried to divide and rule these guys by granting bail to McKinnon and O’Dwyer, but not to Ahsan and Ahmed, figuring, one suspects, that people would not get particularly upset about just two more brown men in internment-without-charge for 6 and 8 years.

    Also, for a long time, ‘human rights’ organisations (see also under ‘Roderick Russell’ for a critique of such bodies) like Liberty and others seemed very reluctant to be associated with defending the human rights of Ahmed and Ahsan and preferred to be photographed alongside McKinnon and O’Dwyer. Better PR for the organisations, you see. Likewise, pop stars and celebrities – lots have joined the fight for McKinnon and O’Dwyer (even Jimmy Wales of Wikipedia has spoken out against O’Dwyer’s extradition), but none spoke out for Ahmed or Ahsan. It’s not a cool, trendy cause, you see, and bearded (or even unbearded) brown Muslim men, well, who gives a toss! Also, the self-styled ‘patriotic’ British Right – UKIP et al – supported McKinnon and O’Dwyer, but of course, (perish the thought!) not the brown (equally British) guys.

    So, it seems that in the ‘War on Terror’, in the UK at least, even within this Dantean Purgatory of persecution, there may be one level for whites, and quite another, deeper level for browns and blacks. Nothing new there. In the end, in the USA, it might make little difference – one recalls the fate of Bradley Manning.

    But McKinnon and O’Dwyer and their mothers (who bring to mind those deeply courageous women, the Argentinian ‘Mothers of the Disappeared’) refused to allow the powers-that-be to divide-and-rule and at every stage indicated their loud vocal solidarity with Ahsan and Ahmed – and good on them for doing so! We all should give them – O’Dwyer and McKinnon – the same solidarity.

    O’Dwyer is being persecuted simply because he allegedly linked to some sites in an index on his TV/music, etc. recreational site (even though he also provided a disclaimer) that allegedly breached copyright. As soon as this was brought to his attention, he shut down his site. He is a student at Sheffield Hallam Uni.

    So with him, it’s alleged copyright issues, it’s got nothing to do with the ‘War on Terror’. Yet we can see how this heinous law is being applied across the board in relation to the control of information and, I do think, in order to instill a culture of fear, of terror: (To quote from that old Buffalo Springfield song): “Step out of line, the men come and take you away”. It’s Kafka. Any of us, if we link to a site that links to a site that links to a site that allegedly breached copyright, now can be extradited to the USA and our slave politicians, our pathetic colonial overseers (of all main parties), will rubber-stamp it. They have turned us into a puppet state. They have no legitimacy.

  141. You.ll like this Mary.

    Picture this-City of London and Westminster.

    Pigs at the Troff.

    What we should do as a people is just., ignore them and leave them to it.

    You can just see there fat pig faces as they lift up frim scoughing that no one cares for their fodder!

  142. He and Ahmed and their lawyers have not even been allowed to see the evidence. It’s shocking.

    Chances are no-one this side of the pond has seen the evidence (if any exists) The US can pull our citizens without providing a case. It’s that shocking.

  143. I, for one, don’t want little whining machines and interconnecting pylons all over our countryside and wildernesses. I’ll put up with it if needs be, but I’d prefer something better. (Clark)

    The conspiracy that is lead by our political parties and the establishment is vile, because it is grounded in false aesthetics, that of the untouched rolling countryside, pastoral views and, as well as their ulterior motives. The royal estate’s and land owning few seem to find it OK to fleece the taxpayers for subsidies they themselves can’t afford.

    Alternative energy is not an issue for the Government, its between us the producer/consumers and the energy companies. They have an obligation by law to buy our electricity at slightly below market price, as long as it comes from non fossil sources, all other deals involving middle companies and hangers on is inefficient and unsustainable.

    As for whining wind turbines being the realm of the cheap bargain hunters we are, yes the smaller one’s are fast moving machines with some noise involved, but it is not the A13 running next to your house.

    Nuclear power, as it is generated around the world at present, with dangerous long term waste cycles, dangerous fission, radiated materials and lack of resolve to do different, despite its low CO2 print, should only be the last resort, we now know that in a world of increasing chaotic weather patterns and psychopath at the tiller of our coracle, it carries too many risks to humanity.

    cue our boys in blue above, shattering Norfolk’s pastoral ancient countryside and silence with their expensive loud fighting machines, another massive waste of time and money for….. not very much at all.

  144. Half of Germany’s alternative power is generate by its people, really safeguarding the net overall, the more there are the safer a country will be from the ravages of the annual Russian gas price demands and from expensive French nuclear power.


  145. @ Suhayl 9.40 A.M.

    Excellent post.

    You’re absolutely right.

  146. oct 15 – Bloomberg: Stefan Nicola: German Renewables Fee Rises 47%, Opening Government Rift
    Germany’s power grid operators boosted the surcharge consumers pay for funding renewable energy to a record, triggering a rift between two ministers in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Cabinet.
    The four grid companies set the fee paid through power bills at 5.28 euro cents (6.8 cents) a kilowatt-hour in 2013, up 47 percent from 3.59 cents now. Economy Minister Philipp Roesler wants to lower a federal electricity tax to help counter the increase, he told reporters today in Berlin. Environment Minister Peter Altmaier wants to offer consumers free advice on saving energy instead…
    Merkel’s government is seeking to prevent a voter backlash against raising energy costs before the next general election in the autumn of 2013. Last week, Altmaier set out plans to cap subsidies for wind, biomass and solar power that have surged since 2004 when the government guaranteed above-market prices for electricity generated from clean sources…
    The total subsidy next year will amount to about 20.36 billion euros, which is paid for by consumers through their power bills. The fee increase will raise the bill of the average German household with 3,500 kilowatt-hours of consumption by 59 euros a year. That impact was inflated by exemptions for big industrial users and leftover costs from the previous year, the operators said…

  147. Thanks for the excellent resume of Mc Kinnon’s despicable extradition saga, Suhayl, everything about it shows that we are clearly attached to the US navel.

    Ms. May wants to retract from the EAW, but has no problems with the extradition of ill people to the US.

    Thanks for the update, oddie, looks like the alternative price’s are following the fossil fuel price rises.
    In the same time frame you mentioned,i.e. between 2004 and now, british electricity prices have more than doubled from £522,-/annum to £1132,- each year, on average.

    looking at the difference, I can see what works best, there are too many hangers on and middle men, offering this that and the other, effectively making alternative power into a smear word and working into the hands of our fat nuclear controllers.


  148. Suhayl Saadi at 16 Oct, 9:40 am:

    “So with him [O’Dwyer], it’s alleged copyright issues, it’s got nothing to do with the ‘War on Terror’. Yet we can see how this heinous law is being applied across the board in relation to the control of information and, I do think, in order to instill a culture of fear, of terror”

    “Control of information” – yes, this is exactly it. Just as we saw when the FCO invoked Crown Copyright to suppress Craig’s evidence in Murder in Samarkand. In the case of O’Dwyer, we see a sinister but familiar alliance between government and corporate media, “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours”. The US government is eager to support and use such law on behalf of the corporate media, knowing that the same law, and the precedents set under it, could prove very useful when they wish to suppress information themselves.

  149. Question is whether Cameron will risk a by-election in a Constituency with a small majority, some 1747 votes, and in a seat that once was held by Stephen Twigg.

    Its good to see there is some realisation in Conservative ranks, mostly due to self preservation imho, that our cosy relationship with the US is not a given.

  150. “Hundal is a sad figure…..Hundal’s basic decency has predictably been eroded as he was sucked in by the neo-con establishment……“Why is Sunny Hundal a neo-con lickspittle?” is a question worth discussion.”
    For Sunny Hundal read Juan Cole. Same story.

  151. Alternatively, Nevermind, Burrowes knows that he is in no danger of having to carry out his threat. May on Today this morning was exhibiting all the signs of an incipient U-turn (as carried out by the average Norfolk driver – brake, indicate, mirror, manoeuvre) and there is some word of solid psychiatric evidence as to McKinnon’s suicidal potential. But let us believe the best of people, eh? (Eh? Ok.)

  152. May decides against extraditing Gary Mckinnon!

    Whoda thunk it??

  153. BREAKING NEWS:UK blocks the extradition of computer hacker Gary McKinnon to the US, BBC understands

  154. 16 October 2012 Last updated at 12:37

    Hillsborough: Application for new inquests
    The families of Hillsborough victims have campaigned to have the accidental verdict overturned

    Hillsborough papers
    Chief apologises over statement
    Thatcher row over police cover-up
    Key excerpts
    Key findings

    The Attorney General is applying to have the original verdicts in the inquest into the 96 deaths at Hillsborough quashed.

    Dominic Grieve QC announced the move in Parliament in his response to the Hillsborough Independent Panel’s report published on 12 September.

    The report revealed 41 fans could potentially have been saved.

    The victims’ families have always challenged the original inquest verdict of accidental death.


  155. Spot-on Suhayl – hats off to you.

  156. I swear I didn’t know that McKinnon’s extradition had been blocked when I made my last post! And it looks as if Burrowes’ nobility is back in question.

  157. Donald Fagen releases his new album today…i knew it was a good omen…:.)

    Congrats to Gary and family and all who worked for this.

  158. What good news, I bet this will improve his state somewhat and induces some hope.

    But let us not make the mistake to think that this is a sea change that is applicable to others or signals a policy change, nor will it help others like Barba Ahmad, who should have never been sent to the US.

  159. Clark – Roisa Koire is one of the biggest lefties out there. She attended this meeting of tea party faithfulls precisely because she knows that people need to reach out beyond these stick on labels of which you seem to be so fond. She and many others like her demonstrate great religious and political tolerance and respect towards others whilst also getting her own important message accross

  160. Nevermind, I oppose the polarisation in the energy supply debate, and you’re absolutely right, the term “renewable energy” is being smeared. But so is the term “nuclear”, and has been for a lot longer.

    “It’s not a smear, look at Fukushima!”

    But this has to be put into perspective:

    “The Banqiao Dam failure in Southern China directly resulted in the deaths of 26,000 people, and another 145,000 from epidemics. Millions were left homeless. Also, the creation of a dam in a geologically inappropriate location may cause disasters such as 1963 disaster at Vajont Dam in Italy, where almost 2000 people died.

    Smaller dams and micro hydro facilities create less risk, but can form continuing hazards even after being decommissioned. For example, the small Kelly Barnes Dam failed in 1967, causing 39 deaths with the Toccoa Flood, ten years after its power plant was decommissioned”

    Blaming the Fukushima disaster on “nuclear” makes as much sense as blaming the Banqiao Dam disaster on gravity or water.


  161. Chris Jones, all the words we use are labels, and sometimes those labels are misused, especially in the service of propaganda.

    Broadly and roughly, the political Left favours the ordinary people, whereas the political Right favours large accumulations of money (capital), and therefore rich people and organisations. This is the correct use of Left and Right.

    In party politics, the parties of the Left have moved consistently to the Right over the last few decades. There is now hardly any difference between parties that claim to still be of the Left, and the parties of the Right.

    “There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party … and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt — until recently … and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties.”

    But the Rightward shift of the “Leftist” parties does not invalidate the true Left-Right distinction.

    The Tea Party is a very sad phenomenon, because ordinary, non-wealthy people are being persuaded by Big Money’s propaganda and news management to vote, organise, and protest against their own best interests. We see the same effect in the UK in the fake and biased “news” distributed by the corporate media.

    Chris, I never much looked at the depopulation conspiracy theory until I got involved in this discussion with you. Since I have, I’ve been discovering that it very much serves the agenda of the Right. It argues for weakening of government, thus handing more power to the rich and the corporations and removing social support for ordinary people. It argues against rationality and understanding, the two most powerful tools available to everyone.

    Chris, the following are genuine questions to you, I really want to know what you think. Why do you believe this stuff? What convinced you? Why doesn’t the Right-wing agenda and support behind it make you suspicious?

  162. resident dissident

    16 Oct, 2012 - 3:28 pm

    I don’t really care whether the Taliban shooting 14 year old girls or beheading aid workers etc. is a spontaneous outporing of evil or whether it is premeditated or whether it is a symptom or cause. It is just evil and shoudl be dealt with as such. True lefties oppose evil and don’t play silly relativist games.

  163. I hear what you say about dams being dangerous and bury thousands of homes and livelihoods under water, either by covering them in water or by breaking and destroying the communities further down the valley, but the area is not off limit for the next thirty years.

    This has got to be the longest Wikipedia site ever.

  164. @Clark “War kills people, massively degrades their environment and destroys their livelihoods. The focus on DU is too narrow. You could campaign, and maybe get DU banned. War would be just as bad as ever.”

    We are not obsessed with DU Clark, just highlighting one of the bad aspects of the zio-crusade war feasts.

  165. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    16 Oct, 2012 - 4:40 pm

    Not to add another gnat to the hand-cream, but water is the new oil. Bush and T Boone Pickens have been duking it out in Texas over water rights for several years. The Bushes are ahead of the curve. (I’m sure this is not new to you, but thought it merited mention)


  166. Clark – i’m glad you acknowledge the indistinguishability of the left and right parties in a modern context. If you must deal in labels then i would agree that true left of center doctrine has usually been, and is, well meaning and just. However, as we know, extreme leftist doctrine is as dangerous as extreme right. Karl Marx and Mao for example were both funded and put in place by the Anglo American capitalist empire, which slightly takes away their proletariat posing.

    Clark – The depopulation agenda goes beyond all notions of right and left – it is extreme far far right posing as leftie well meaningness. Or to put it another way, and to disregard labels, it is crazy eugenicists from privilaged backgrounds and statusus, funded by massive corporations, who want to play god, and consider us the plebs who they can do what they like with.Try not to confuse traditional acceptable notions of right and left ideology with what these crazed eugenicists are doing – they are very different affairs

  167. @ScouseBilly “Sunflower (and I guess zoologist): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67wf4r4jIYQ&feature=related

    Mind boggling.

  168. @ScouseBilly – you guessed right!

    Mind boggling indeed.

    Thanks too for the links Chris, Sunflower et al. Glad to see you guys still plugging away with the sensible. It’s a thankless task but I really appreciate your efforts (albeit from the lurky depths).

  169. Scouse Billy

    16 Oct, 2012 - 8:41 pm

    Mind boggling – you ain’t seen nothing yet:


    Enjoy :)

  170. Scouse Billy

    16 Oct, 2012 - 8:54 pm

    Reich of The Black Sun by Joseph P Farrell is available free online here:


  171. Watching Lloyd Pye now :)

  172. Scouse Billy and mary
    many thanks for all the great information and links you both provide it is always interesting
    many thanks : )

  173. Suhayl

    My point which you didn’t like is that people who play greed politics and sexual politics are just as nasty black or white.
    Islam does not contain these dirty politics. I left one lot and found the so-called Muslims doing their best to play the same dirty games as the first. I’m not picking on colour. Bit touchy?Sorry to cause offence.

  174. Sunflower at 16 Oct, 4:28 pm

    “one of the bad aspects of the zio-crusade war feasts”

    All war isn’t in support of Zionism, Sunflower. Not even remotely.

  175. @ScouseBilly

    Rupert Sheldrake, what a lovely person. The parrot experiment was hilarious. I found this as well. Karma -A new science of life Part 1


  176. Nevermind at 16 Oct, 4:05 pm: All the different energy generation methods have their own dangers. Burning coal produced acid rain that wiped out huge swathes of Scandinavian forests. Using oil and natural gas seems to result in protracted war.

    We haven’t tried the various renewable technologies on a large scale yet, so we don’t know what their dangers are. Maybe there are none; wanna bet? Maybe knock-on effects will only become clear after our society has become dependent.

    The Fukushima disaster should not be blamed upon “nuclear”. It was the secrecy and collusion between industry and government that was responsible:

    # The reactors should never have been sited so near the coast in a tsunami zone.
    # Six reactors shouldn’t have been built so close together.
    # The reactors shouldn’t have continued in operation beyond their design lifetime.
    # Emergency generators, or at least their air intakes, should have been sited safely above flood levels.

    Two of these precautions would have prevented the disaster entirely. The other two would have greatly decreased its severity. But I’ve left the worst ’til last, and I’m sorry, I have to shout:


    It seems that the risk profile of water-cooled solid-fuelled nuclear power disasters is relatively few deaths, but medium-term contamination of land. There may be further damage from contamination, but so far, Chernobyl would seem to indicate that it’s really very minor in comparison with fossil fuels, and possibly, on worst-case estimates, comparable with hydro-electric.

    We should also remember that the Fukushima disaster is really just a minor part of the much larger disaster of the tsunami itself.

  177. Chris Jones, thanks for your reply of 16 Oct, 5:07 pm, but you didn’t answer my questions:

    “Why do you believe this stuff (the depopulation conspiracy)? What convinced you? Why doesn’t the Right-wing agenda and support behind it make you suspicious?”

    I know that some people and organisations are trying to slow the birth rate. But that’s not what you’re trying to make me “wake up” to, that isn’t why you agree that I’m “a sheep-person so far below the curve”, is it? You’re saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that there is an imminent plot to kill 80% of the global population. It was advocated, amongst others, by Bertrand Russell and Aldous Huxley. And I can’t see it because I’m either brainwashed, or part of it. Have I got your position about right?

  178. Scouse Billy

    17 Oct, 2012 - 1:55 am

    @TonyRoma – thank you, I just try to share what I think is interesting.

    @Sunflower – yes, I like Sheldrake very much. I was in touch with him a while back to point out that his field theories IMO were comensurate with the work of Tom Campbell at NASA on consciousness and quantum mechanics – google: “thomas campbell monroe institute” – heavy but worth the trouble, in fact, one of the best lectures I have ever seen.

    Funnily enough, it was the other conversant of “A Quest Beyond the Limits of the Ordinary” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXpndnjHvqw (highly recommended), Bruce Lipton that met up with Tom Campbell in June this year and their exchange was recorded in 2 parts on youtube.

    I found it interesting but anyone not familiar with Lipton or Campbell might want to research their work first. At the end they both agree that there are many of us that need to come together so that humanity can evolve for better driven by love and sharing, rather than for worse driven by fear and greed – and boy are there some fear inducing, greed encouraging elements amongst us – put me in the Dragons Den with an M16… ;)

  179. excellent post, very informative. I wonder why the other experts of this sector don’t understand this. You should continue your writing. I’m confident, you have
    a huge readers’ base already!

    [Mod/Clark: I edited this to break the commercial link, but retained the spam because it is referred to in the next comment.]

  180. The presence of trolls like the immediately above is a sign of how much some parties hate freedom of opinion and freedom of expression. The replacement of violent dictators in Muslim countries by the utterly devious Muslim Brotherhood in the Arab Spring is sponsored by the enemies of Islam, viz the Zionist bankers of USIS.

    This new political Islam rules through institutional racism, hypocrisy, lying , spying and greed and they love the internet as a medium for propagation of falsehoods and detest it as a provider of freedom of speech. They love being able to spy on people through their IT equipment, mobiles, laptops and other espionage devices like trackers, cameras and microphones, but they hate the platform which the internet provides for people to dissent from their tentacles of control.

    The adopted son of dictatorial power, political Islam, will become an absolute tyrant if ever the parent, UKUSISRussia and China decide to remove the internet as more dangerous than useful to them. In this new age of religious and political Big Brotherpersecution, the greatest threat to internet freedom comes from political Islam. They want us all to be religious zombie clones.

  181. Guano, the above was almost certainly submitted by a spambot, automated spamming software. It has no relation to Zionism. This blog’s automated spam filter intercepts about seventy such comments every day. All blogs are bombarded with such automated spam. The amount of it goes up with a blog’s popularity.

    As to Internet based spying, this is an interest of mine (studying it, not doing it). Most spying emanates from the commercial sector, followed by the criminal sector. I don’t see a clear line between the two.

    The amount of state / secret service spying is difficult to quantify. Certainly, the US collects vast quantities of data on its citizens, and the UK retains access to a vast quantity via Internet Service Providers. But I suspect that the amount of this that is ever actually looked at is pretty small. My basis for this suspicion is twofold:

    (1) The state is chronically lazy. Having their monitoring machines whirring away in the background makes them feel very powerful, but can they really be bothered to regularly inspect their fishing nets and sort out the catch from the crap?

    (2) The state prefers to “outsource”.

  182. “This new political Islam rules through institutional racism, hypocrisy, lying , spying and greed and they love the internet as a medium for propagation of falsehoods and detest it as a provider of freedom of speech.” Guano, at 4:29am on 17.10.12.

    Sounds just like our ruling class, here in the UK, doesn’t it? Or indeed most ruling classes across the globe.

    ‘Political Islam’ (Islamism, Jihadism, Fundamentalism) is an instrument which they – our ruling classes – have used and periodically allied with tactically over the decades in Muslim-majority countries in order to divide-and-rule and erode any nationalistic movements of self-determination (eg. Mossadegh) or even local despotic cadres which do not adhere wholly to their perceived interests (Sukarno, Gaddafi, Assad, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, etc.). They – and it – need to be opposed.

    But to posit that ‘Political Islam’ is some kind of absolute, epochal enemy and that it somehow is what they are trying to impose on us, here in the UK/the West, is a convenient distortion which emanates largely from the Extreme Right. It is a mixture of Neo-con ‘Clash of Civilisation’ rhetoric and old-style xenophobia. It boils down to this: “Be afraid! Be very afraid! The Muzzies are taking over!” and is a descendent of, “There are Reds under the bed! The Russians are coming!” It is designed to perpetuate societal acquiescence for a state of permanent de facto war. In the end, it serves the interests of the ruling classes, the banksters, the military-security complex.

  183. Thanks for that Suhayl, political Islam is a construct of the west, especially the fundamental, absolute type that fears all grass roots movements that could possibly usurp Islamic cultural and religious practises.

    That’s why Malala was shot, because of her networking with other girls who want education and betterment, The Taliban does not want a popular person, female or male, proclaiming the basic messages of marxist theory, all forgotten in our western propaganda haste.

    @Clark, you wrote
    ” Maybe there are none; wanna bet? Maybe knock-on effects will only become clear after our society has become dependent.”

    Mirrors concentrating solar power and heating water tp produce steam that is then directed into turbines to produce energy is simple text book plumbing for a sophisticated technologically savvy society as us. Maybe its too simple for us and we are hooked afr more on the destructive elemnt of our existence here than we thought. Do we have a doomsday gene? that seeks for the most dangerous practises possible?

    fair due, the Tsunami theory did not receive enough thinking, the sea wall was no sufficient enough, but this can happen anywhere, even here in our shallow North sea. If we have a co-occurrence of the stone age Tsunami triggered by a Norwegian landslip which de4vastated most Norfth sea countries sea boards, then this will smother Sizewel’s old and new nuclear development, as well as Bradwell’s de-commissioning.

    In France we have seen that nuclear power stations had to shut down for lack of water in their river system and many eastern European nuclear power generators are built in unsuitable earthquake prone terrain, built with less suitable material qualities.

    Like I said, My stance has changed, from an absolute opponent of nuclear power to one that would use it as a last resort, cause |I do not want to see old people die of hypothermia each year, but as it looks like even with nuclear power our elderly are priced off the heat they so desperately need in winter.

    My children are totally immune to my concerns,although critical, something that is understandable in a world of uncertainty and full spectrum dominance. They will have a fight on their hands, or capitulate, to gain the extra points for the newest Iphone/ dingle dangle/ or whatever.


  184. Clark – “Why do you believe this stuff (the depopulation conspiracy)? What convinced you? Why doesn’t the Right-wing agenda and support behind it make you suspicious?”

    – I’m not sure it is a matter of believing or not believing Clark. We only need to look at the evidence and the written and oral proof of what these small group of of extremists are planning on doing, and have been carrying out for a while via slow kill methods.It’s not a cult of belief or fantasy, it’s simply pointing out what these people have said themselves,and thinking about what this,and other technological/tranhumanism developments could mean for civilisation as we know it. Maybe the more apt question is why don’t you it believe it when the evidence is there for all to see.

  185. Maybe the more apt question is why don’t you it believe it when the evidence is there for all to see.

    Give us an instance. Something that has been inadvertantly betrayed to the world by the conspirators. And it would be, er, illuminating to see the reasoning by which you exclude any other interpretation and arrive at your conclusion.

    Warning: If it walks like a Koch and bribes like a Koch, then it probably is a Koch.

  186. Komodo – like i’ve tried to express, i haven’t particularly arrived at any conspiratorial conclusion – i only repeat and highlight what has been said over and over by these hegemonic extremists – numerous examples of which can be found on the comment section of the ‘Leave of absence’ post http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/leave-of-absence/

  187. @ScouseBilly

    “Funnily enough, it was the other conversant of “A Quest Beyond the Limits of the Ordinary” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXpndnjHvqw (highly recommended), Bruce Lipton that met up with Tom Campbell in June this year and their exchange was recorded in 2 parts on youtube.”

    Thank you ScouseBIlly, absolutely fantastic.

  188. “Bruce Lipton is an Epigenetic Biologist and Tom Campbell is a NASA Physicist and each has stepped outside the box of their respective disciplines to bring to us what we believe will be the future where Biology and Physics share the same concepts and understandings and will bring us much closer to a unified scientific interaction with our whole cosmos.”

    The lowest entropy in an information system is love, the opposite is fear. These guys are really on to something. It’s fascinating to apply what they say to our modern world politics, a society based on fear in order for a few to be able to control the many. But the control system can be destroyed by love :)


    And a NASA scientist in the body of a sage… What a treat.

  189. Sunflower, delighted that you enjoyed the overdue “conversation” :)

    Dean Radin was mentioned and sure enough Tom Campbell met up with him:


    Note how Campbell answers Radin’s question about the observer effect in terms of his Big TOE and think of Sheldrake’s morphic resonance – you can see why I saw the parallels between their concepts, i.e. they are describing the same informational process in slightly different ways but Tom is giving flesh to how morphic fields work.

    Btw I cam across Tom Campbell some time ago and was so pleased that I had found someone who thought the same way about consciousness as I did – I once nearly failed a philosophy of mind course for such heretical thinking.

    I wrote an essay on the relationships between Noddy, Big Ears and their “creator”, Enid – you can imagine the reaction ;)

  190. The lowest entropy in an information system is love, the opposite is fear.

    Does this mean anything? If so, what, enquiring minds from the physical science and IT fields would probably like to know…

  191. Those enquiring minds should direct their inquisitiveness to the conversation referred to and not require to be intellectually spoon fed by less intelligent new-agers. If they did so, they would (perhaps) realise that consciousness in the dialogue is referred to a system of information and as such it seeks to lower its entropy. The way that is accomplished is through cooperation or fundamentally, love.

    Was expecting someone else to jump the bait.

  192. Well, tough. You’ve got me, not someone else. Can you tell me the units you’re using, perhaps? So what you are saying is that love tends to lower the level of disorder in consciousness? You’ve never been in love, mate.

  193. I’m referring to a discourse between two geniuses, one researching in Biology and one in Physics, they are cutting edge scientists in their respective fields. Now you want me to explain what this is all about because you are to lazy to look for yourself.

    Then, since you have not taken the time to watch the discussion I refer to, you make a false assumption and based on that you come to a false conclusion.

    This tells me you are in actuality not as interested as you portray, seems to me you just want to have an argument.

    Please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWUu9BTi3X8 and I’d be happy to hear your perspective and analysis.

  194. There’s a language problem here. “Love” as a word is used for multiple emotional states. The Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t teach me much of any use, but they did teach the difference between (sorry, memory dredge in progress) Agape and eros.

    Komodo, this lot are discussing Sheldrake, which I consider a great improvement over repressed Tesla devices and fake Bosnian pyramids. The ideas here even treat consciousness in terms of information rather than “energy”. Sheldake does actually do experiments and present results.

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