The Sky Has Not Fallen

by craig on May 23, 2013 7:05 pm in Uncategorized

The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.

Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:

A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.

Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.

Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.

We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.

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830 Comments

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  1. If someone strangles me on a Dundee bus tomorrow, it will only be classed as terrorism if the media decide. It will not warrant 24/7 coverage if he shouts that the tooth fairy told him to do it. If he shouts that god told him to do it, it will only be terrorism if that god is not christian.
    Mental illness knows no boundaries.

  2. Fear is good.

  3. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 7:51 pm

    “Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict.”

    I disagree they are two distinct conflicts and trying to link them just gives both murderers a very weak excuse for their actions. That aside I agree with everything else that you say.

  4. Greenmachine

    23 May, 2013 - 7:52 pm

    Watching Obama on RT. Is he about to ask Congress to close Gitmo….yes but he has been heckled from audience. He is looking for site in USA for detainees from Gitmo. Is this his move to live up to his earlier promise!?

  5. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2013 - 8:07 pm

    The knee jerkers:

    “Woolwich attack: Snoopers’ charter ‘could have prevented machete tragedy’”

    “The Woolwich terrorist attack could potentially have been avoided if the Government had greater powers to monitor people’s internet communications, defence experts have suggested.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10076002/Woolwich-attack-Snoopers-charter-could-have-prevented-machete-tragedy.html

  6. April Showers

    23 May, 2013 - 8:07 pm

    These thirteen ‘articles’ are listed on the home page of the Mail.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

    1. A loving father, an Afghan hero and a fine soldier: Face of ‘Riggers’ the innocent drummer, 25, ‘butchered in street by Muslim fanatics’
    2. The three Angels of Woolwich: The brave women who confronted fanatics who butchered and tried to behead soldier and prayed next to his body
    3. Side by side with preacher of hate? Choudary claims picture shows arrested Islamic fanatic, 28, at 2007 demo
    4. MAIL ONLINE EXCLUSIVE: Moment anti-terror police raid flat and arrest four people just a mile from scene of Woolwich killing
    5. Man and woman, both 29, arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to murder following Woolwich terror attack
    6. Side by side with preacher of hate? Choudary claims picture shows arrested Islamic fanatic, 28, at 2007 demo
    7. MI5 admit they KNEW about Islamic fanatics who ‘slaughtered soldier’: One suspect was ‘arrested when he tried to join rebels in Somalia’
    8. ‘The first guy goes for her with a machete… she took him out like Robocop…’: Rapper’s tweets among eyewitness accounts of horrific attack
    9. ‘Terror attack will not divide us but makes us stronger’: Cameron urges Britain to continue with normal life
    10. Police commander claims armed officers were on scene of Woolwich killing in 14 minutes – as 1,200 extra police are drafted onto the streets of London
    11. Ban on soldiers wearing uniforms in public lifted after concern it sent message that terrorists were winning
    12. Put extremists on first plane back to wherever they’ve come from, demands furious Tory MP Bob Stewart
    13. Hope for heroes: Wellwishers flood veterans’ charity website after sweatshirt worn by Woolwich victim was seen by millions

    Deplorable.

  7. April Showers

    23 May, 2013 - 8:14 pm

    Obama who promised the gullible Americans ‘hope and change’.

    23 May 2013 Last updated at 20:07

    Barack Obama defends ‘just war’ using drones

    US President Barack Obama speaks about his administration’s drone and counterterrorism policies, as well as the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, at the National Defense University in Washington, DC 23 May 2013

    Related Stories
    Legal case revealed
    Cost of secret drone war
    Viewpoint: Drones and modern war

    President Barack Obama has defended the use of drones as a “just war” of self-defence against deadly militants, and a campaign that had made America safer.

    In a wide-ranging speech on a programme shrouded in secrecy, he said there must be “near certainty” that no civilians would die in such strikes.

    In a renewed push to shut Guantanamo Bay, he also lifted a moratorium on prisoner transfers to Yemen.

    Mr Obama also defended the use of drones to kill four US citizens.

    “We are at war with an organisation that right now would kill as many Americans as they could if we did not stop them first,” he said in Thursday’s address at National Defense University in Washington DC.

    “So this is a just war – a war waged proportionally, in last resort, and in self-defence.”

    /..

    ‘Self-defence’! We have heard it all now.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22638533

  8. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2013 - 8:18 pm

    Resident dissident
    23 May, 2013 – 7:51 pm

    In answer to Craig’s comment:

    “Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict.”

    You say:

    “I disagree they are two distinct conflicts…”

    What are the two distinct conflicts and why don’t you elucidate?

    “…and trying to link them just gives both murderers a very weak excuse for their actions.”

    There are no excuses for these actions but there are reasons, perhaps you don’t understand that.

  9. April, I try to limit my consumption of the Daily Wail for much this reason – dreadful propaganda rag. I do tend towards the Media Lens view though – there’s no Washington men in black suits and shades who’ve instructed the reactionary press how to write. Sadly, there’s enough people who’ve been brought up with “the right opinions”, and the system self-selects them for its own self-interest.

    One or two make it through the net thankfully – Greenwald has been good as always on this. Reading below the line is depressing (isn’t it normally the other way around at the Guardian?) but there’s some valiant souls fighting against the (neo)con trolls.

  10. doug scorgie

    23 May, 2013 - 8:59 pm

    In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.

  11. There were two shocking moments yesterday – the first was the murder, the second was the official designation of this as terrorism.

    Apart from erecting a statue in their honour, I am not quite sure what more our leaders could have done to do exactly what these murderers wanted? These two monsters wanted to make a statement, and by golly, Cameron and his friends allowed them to make it exactly as planned.

    After the Boston bombers were id’d, hands down the best moment came when their uncle was interviewed and called them losers and screw-ups, who had shamed their family. He didn’t call them terrorists or bombers or extremists. He called them losers, he was 100% correct, and it should be the template for future official responses to what these days we call terrorism.

    This is not to disagree with any of the wider context, it is that the narrative from yesterday is pretty much giving a couple of losers the sort of martyrdom they crave.

  12. As seen on the available videos of the incident; people were milling around freely, and interacting with the “terrorists”. This clearly being the indicator that those present were not terrorised, or made to fear for their lives, to cower and run for cover.

    Further, even prime minister has been waxing lyrical about a female tenant standing up to the “terrorist” and arguing and debating with him. In the coming days as more and more of the videos of the incident will be making their way onto the internet, these will further verify the fact that the “terrorists” had singularly failed to terrorise those present, that is if they intended to terrorise the population present.

    Terrified and cowering people do not go about passing the “terrorists” carrying their shopping basket, whilst others were busy videoing the said chap. However, the Media, as in the case of Nick Robinson who pontificated; “the terrorists with Islamic appearance”, with others in the media joining in delivering emotive reportage; pushing the hot buttons, interspersed with “Islamic terrorists”, “help the heroes”, “beheading”, and even going so far as Anna Botting to claim the soldier had been kidnapped before getting hacked to death, and egging her guests on into a frenzy of “women forced to wear burka”, “policewoman shooting the “terrorist” ought to have come as a shock to him”!

    Then the programs of apparent gravitas beginning to debate the introduction of even more legislation, and availing the secret services with even more surveillance capabilities. All the while pushing the “Islamic terrorists” and the influence of the hate preachers, and fact that all the Muslims ought to be made to stand in the corner and made to apologise to all and sundry in the town squares; for being Muslims!

    The fact that these provocations have lead to the kristallnacht redux. Anyone surfing the net could not have escaped the racist bile heaped upon Muslims, and the promises and threats of reprisals, killings, and so forth. Whilst mosques have been getting attacked and Muslims terrorised, to the extent that these fearful Muslims have stopped their children from attending schools; for fear of reprisals. The “terror campaign” goes on, whilst in the confusion of the unfolding events, the media broadcast orders and counter orders getting issued in the same newscast bulletin.

    Fact that in the current climate of repression to explore the actions of these “terrorists” and their “motivations” would be construed as; aiding and abetting the “terrorists”. The only analysts have been the fascist organisations masquerading as neo conservatives; Henry Jackson Society, as well as the usual token brown skinned Quilliam foundation rep, that have gone onto debating their perceptions of the reasons underlying the radicalisation of Muslim youth getting “radicalised”.

    Terrorists do not hang around for twenty minutes, terrorists do not get into debates and argue with people present, terrorists do not invite people to take photos and videos, terrorists do not allow women to attend to their victims. Hence those classifying this attack as terrorism are engaging in hyperbole.

    Why should these political operatives wish to exploit this sad situation to their own ends? All the while discounting any links between the atrociously aggressive foreign policy of the UK, and pinning the blame on the fanaticism of the “Radicalised Muslims”? Is this not reminiscent of the policies of the ziofuckwits in zionistan?

  13. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:13 pm

    My nomination for the idiotic comment of the day :

    Doug Scorgie (for it was he), who wrote at 0h59

    “In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.

  14. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:18 pm

    Fedup; That public reaction seemed strange to me. I remember the Kitty Genovese case in NY. She was attacked and murdered while screaming. People looked out their windows and told the guy to stop, but that was it. It was like people thought they were watching a reality show. Everyone reacts to shock in different ways, I guess. For me I get real calm when in shock. What I should do gets clear and I act instinctively.

  15. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:19 pm

    ” the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.”

    It’s a metaphor, and smartly accurate.

  16. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:21 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    You come out with the same line on this thread as pn the previous one, ie :

    “There are no excuses for these actions but there are reasons”

    So I’ll ask you the same question as I did on that previous thread : what, in your opinion, are those reasons?

    PS – why do you ask other commenters questions while not replying to questions addressed to you?

  17. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:25 pm

    @ Ben Franklin :

    “It’s a metaphor, and smartly accurate.”
    ———

    Thanks for that clarification, Ben. There was I, thinking that Scorgie meant it literally!

    As you’re obviously nobody’s fool, could you explain to us peasants the difference between something that smartly accurate and something that’s merely accurate?

    Thanks in advance!

  18. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:30 pm

    It would be idiotic, if literal. The ‘smart’ part is seeing past the veil.

  19. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:37 pm

    The Obsessive Poster is at it again!

    At 20h07 she lists 13 articles in the Daily Mail and ends with the single word “Deplorable”.
    ————-

    As so often it’s not quite clear what the cunning old thing’s getting at.

    Is it the number of articles she finds deplorable or is her criticism directed at one or more specific articles (if the latter, could she tell us which)?

    Which other articles related to this killing does she think the Mail should have published and which would have allowed her to drop the word “deplorable”?

  20. That story is dated December 2011.

    There is little similarity in the events, in one a soldier, who should’ve been confined to barracks, lashed out in a drunken rage and probably regretted his actions immediately afterwards. Yesterday two stone cold sober individuals carried out a pre-planned murder and savage mutilation of which they seemed quite proud. I wouldn’t describe them as being equally horrific nor do I think it reasonable to suppose that Crook had a pre-disposition to “murderous violence”.

    There’s no reason to bring up the Crook story except to try to somehow justify the murder of Drummer Rigby on the spurious grounds that the British army do things that are equally horrific.

  21. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:41 pm

    Thank you, Ben Franklin.

    Just one further question : when you write “The ‘smart’ part is seeing past the veil.”, what exactly is the “veil”? As Doug Scorgie would say, could you elucidate?

  22. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 9:50 pm

    Kempe writes, correctly :

    “There’s no reason to bring up the Crook story except to try to somehow justify the murder of Drummer Rigby on the spurious grounds that the British army do things that are equally horrific”
    ————

    Well spotted. It is clear that some of the commenters are finding it difficult to accept that this was a heinous and unjustified act, carried out in the name of Islam. I suspect that their true feelings – which of course they wouldn’t have the guts to express – are feelings of approval or, at best, “the UK/the soldier brought it onto themselves”

  23. I think it was George Soros some years ago that made the point that they see us in the same way as we see them – as terrorists.

  24. Fedup
    23 May, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    Everything you said in this post confirms you to be an establishment troll.

    I urge everyone on this blog to study, word for word, Fedup’s posting.

  25. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 10:10 pm

    “troll’ is much overused as a convenient term, Doug. I looked again and Fedup seems to have a longer version of your 8:59.

  26. Fedup
    23 May, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    Everything you said in this post confirms you to be an establishment troll.

    I urge everyone on this blog to study, word for word, Fedup’s posting.

    What is your major fucking malfunction?

    What the fuck are you on about?

    How the fuck did you “confirm” Sherlock?

    ===

    PS. thanks for inviting everyone to read my comment.

  27. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 10:21 pm

    Nice one, Ben Franklin! :)

  28. The only certainty regarding yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value. There is an agenda in the MSM to encourage fear and hatred of Muslims. Whatever the actual events, the language used to describe it will have been chosen to inflame passions and raise tensions. Based on precedent, there is a high probability that the reporting includes half-truths and downright lies.

  29. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 10:41 pm

    @Scourge

    “In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.”

    Both factually and morally wrong – and it is not a metaphor but just plain crass.

    re your previous comment – I’m sure that most murderers have their own reasons for their actions it is pretty rare for these to amount to a valid excuse for their actions or for them to warrant the oxygen of publicity.

    And if Fedup is a troll then might I suggest that he is acting on behalf of the EDL rather than the establishment – either way he is best ignored.

  30. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    23 May, 2013 - 10:43 pm

    “Whatever the actual events,…” and “yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value…” (from A Node)

    What were the actual events in your opinion, A Node?

    And how should we take yesterday’s news in your opinion?

  31. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 10:46 pm

    “The only certainty regarding yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value.”

    I suspect that the only thing many here will take at face value are the Isreali Shekels Habba and I are paid in!

  32. Fedup is a troll then might I suggest that he is acting on behalf of the EDL rather than the establishment – either way he is best ignored.

    You have been so far eluding the points that have been put to you. There again, ostrich does what ostriches do. Although you then go on taking a fucking quantum leap to connect the dots to end up with EDL.

    However there always is the need for coming clean and unburdening, hence the following confession of the neo labour agent:

    …. the Isreali Shekels Habba and I are paid in

  33. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    23 May, 2013 - 11:02 pm

    “Both factually and morally wrong – and it is not a metaphor but just plain crass.”

    Perhaps if it were said in the presence of a Rigby family member, it would be insensitive. However, government responses have worsened the situation through foreign policy directives resulting in collateral deaths and disfigurement. As per usual, those most responsible for those casualties cannot be reached, so innocent citizens bear the brunt. When Chris Dorner melted down, his frustrated attempts to find and mete out his form of justice to the engineers of his troubles was thwarted by exigent circumstances. He murdered the daughter and future son-in-law of one party he sought, instead. True, his methodology and mission was corrupt, but he exhausted the rational means for resolution, and went barmy. It’s not a perfect analogy, but not all parties are innocent in that tragedy. Similarly, the hackers sought (and the video shows them just as self-righteous as Dorner) a solution; one they felt just and right about.

  34. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 11:02 pm

    “These thirteen ‘articles’ are listed on the home page of the Mail.

    Deplorable”

    Together with many many other articles – do you have a problem with newspapers reporting the news – or is your problem with these particular articles not saying what you want or is it something else? Personally I find most news articles in the Mail garbage and have done so for many years – I am little suprised that this is so new to you that it warrants comment.

  35. The ITV clip of the murderers statement is incomplete. ITV should not be rationing information, especially as their selected ration has time to show the murderer sashaying away from camera.

    In the obtained clip the murderers appearance and tone of voice is odd.

    The phonecall from the observer threatened with a gun by the perpetrators sounds hollow.

    The perpetrators wished to be filmed and to give statements. Why did they not prerecord and publish anything themselves on modern media? – I expect this may follow now, but why would such ‘composed’ terrorists not have efficiently arranged their own statement?

    I find their are multiple other matters of doubt about the event which there is not much worth belabouring. They will be covered haplessly in high pageranked discussions which include other weird themes.

    Regardless of disbelief, this event will be reported and discussed by mass media in a particular way. That particular way we know, does never elevate the true solutions to this kind of insanity.

  36. resident dissident

    23 May, 2013 - 11:11 pm

    Fedup

    Think it through, my comment was addressed to what Scourge wrote. For the record, I don’t think you are a troll for the EDL and you genuinely believe most of the garbage you write.

  37. …. genuinely believe most of the garbage you write.

    Projections! projections!

    Your poxy contribution that needs to be further explained was not written out by me now, was it? You naughty ostrich you were being facetious, alas without much success, weren’t you?

    Further, because you are one of those benighted souls with heavy scales on your eyes and very fat lala fingers in your ears, it is far too easy for you to pronounces away, and get on with your dissent against dissidents.

  38. I thought Fedup’s 9:11pm comment, made a number of fair points, I would say it is the sort of analysis, with a sustained compelling argument, that makes this blog’s comment section of more than usual interest, such contributions are far more valuable than the sugary one-liners and quips that hardly leave an impression in the accumulating dust.

    [for the benefit of new readers, there are four recognisable trolls here: Habba-Thing, Kempe, Resident Troll and the apprentice mole Fred, of whom great things are not expected]

    It is highly comical to see those universally acknowledged as trolls those self-evidently ever engaging in persistent and sustained trolling, denouncing someone else, the blog spiralling into a troll-fest, with the usual suspects (see above) nauseatingly reinforcing one another’s preposterous apologia for all the evils of power, wealth and their sick elitist cult, whilst pouring their bile on the powerless or anyone daring or presuming to speak up for them, tender facts, logic and argument countering authoritarian orthodoxy, whenever they so much as rattle the bars of their cages.

    ‘Doug Scorgie’s’ comment is puzzling, could you explain the strange exception you have taken to Fedup’s comment, or let the previous Doug Scorgie return?

    Let no-one be in any doubt their are three victims in this, one is the army hireling and the others are the two young men driven to this desperate act, by whatever imponderable forces.

  39. The Crook death/the Rigby death, method and motive, murderer crazed by alcohol or religious belief, it would make little differnce to the agony of the bereaved.
    BTW in this case ‘born’ not ‘borne’.

  40. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    24 May, 2013 - 12:58 am

    Adriana;

    Even the bereaved require answers as to ‘why?’.

  41. April Showers.

    Your link [The Search for Change 23 May, 2013 – 7:23 am] (thankyou) which described Theresa May taking powers to strip Scotland Yard [the Met] of their counter-terrorism role is interesting and relevant here.

    A close contact (we meet twice weekly) with information on the Met not generally made public has described to me the relationship between MI5, Special Branch and the Met. The connection is historic and has its roots in the early 1970s when the anti-terrorist branch and the “bomb squad” was set up to counter the threat from anarchist groups, such as the Angry Brigade, as well take part in the campaign against the IRA.

    Keith Bristow will become the head of the National Crime Agency when it is formed in October this year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Bristow

    Bristow is a member of Chatham House and sings from the same hymn-sheet on counter-terrorism:

    http://www.chathamhouse.org/research/security/current-projects/ten-years-technology-and-counter-terrorism-911

    Chatham House (RIIA) is engaged in the polemics of Britain’s (and American-now lead) neo-imperial offensive around the world. The chess pieces – MP’s (pawns) Military and security services form part of this plan encompassed within the 100 year ‘war on terror.’

    Keep in mind Britain controls, primarily via the City of London, but also through de facto City of London subsidiaries in Asia and elsewhere, a significant percentage of international financial flows. That is key to the big picture because in our paradigm currency=corruption.

    That corruption begets slaughter, murder, torture, destruction and assassination of whatever, all, everybody that would seriously damage this master strategy or Britain and America’s informal global financial empire – the ‘Anglo-American diaspora in the vocabulary of transnationalism. Simply it is Britain who steers the West’s global construct which is now centered toward Asia or Southeast Asia and the Pacific Rim.

    Thus the master strategy includes the destruction of Syria or essentially Iran, the major energy supplier to China, the Asian super-power.

    With the big picture exposed we can focus back. With Scotland Yard (The Met)out of the loop the constraints on discretion, caution and heed in the public interest will be lacking, down the drain.

    The lunatics will be further empowered.

    To Alison – with thanks

  42. A clutch of 8 hahacluck eggs, all different sizes suitably covered in farmyard goo in a secondhand carton including feathers. Bdok-bdok-bdok-bdok bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh. Well done habaku!!!

  43. “War seems to me to be a mean, contemptible thing: I would rather be hacked in pieces than take part in such an abominable business. And yet so high, in spite of everything, is my opinion of the human race that I believe this bogey would have disappeared long ago, had the sound sense of the nations not been systematically corrupted by commercial and political interests acting through the schools and the Press.”

    Albert Einstein

  44. A little more context: Einstein talking about War, Nature, Religion, The Mysterious and The snuffed-out Candle, Habbakuk…

    “This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of the herd nature, the military system, which I abhor. That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed.

    Heroism by order, senseless violence, and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism-how I hate them! War seems to me a mean, contemptible thing: I would rather be hacked in pieces than take part in such an abominable business. And yet so high, in spite of everything, is my opinion of the human race that I believe this bogey would have disappeared long ago, had sound sense of the nations not been systematic corrupted by commercial and political interestrs acting through the schools and the Press.

    The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle.

    It was the experience of mystery–even if mixed with fear–that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms–it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

    I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.”

    http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/worldsee2.html

  45. BrianFujisan

    24 May, 2013 - 7:13 am

    Villager Apart from being such a clever man, Einstein was Big on Wisdom. I particularly liked his Quote regarding WW3, and WW4 –

    I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein –

    Here’s An exelent piece on the Woolwich Killing by John Hilley

    http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013_05_01_archive.html

  46. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:03 am

    The use of the word ‘machete’ in these reports indicates an overall problem, not only with accurate news reporting, but peoples own critical thinking.

    There is no machete. There was no machete. There has never been a machete. It seems that people are unconcerned with facts in the news media these days.

  47. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:10 am

    Thanks Brian.

    That excellent John Hilley blog confirms my memory of Robinson’s comment which came out immediately after the news broke. Quite vile. I commented on it on the Search for change thread.

    ’22 May, 2013 – 7:36 pm
    Ref the savage murder of a member of the armed forces in Woolwich this afternoon.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304

    1908: The BBC’s Nick Robinson tweets: “To those offended by my describing the attacker as of “Muslim appearance” – I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police.”

    He was a study in severity. He repeated the phrase ‘of Muslim appearance’ at least twice in the 6pm News on BBC1. The T word was used too and we were reminded of 7/7 and other terrorist attacks.’

    John Hilley writes –

    ‘In essence, is state killing not terrorism? Are people not terrorised, terrified, by helicopter gunships? Is the killing of a person in this way any more or less gruesome than the obliteration of an Afghan child with an M16 missile? Is a ‘surgical strike’ any more palatable than a surgical hacking? Would the bloody outcomes of Nato strikes ever appear so graphically on front pages the way they have for the Woolwich killing?

    Having dutifully repeated what official sources had briefed as a ‘terrorist’ attack, the BBC’s Nick Robinson later tweeted: “To those offended by my describing the attacker as of “Muslim appearance” – I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police.”

    Robinson later apologised for the remark. Yet, alongside the insistence on a ‘terrorist’ crime, here, unwittingly revealed, was a consensually-loaded interpretation from police, government and the BBC.

    What, does a Muslim supposedly ‘look like’? Is it conceivable that any of these institutions would ever speak of an alleged attacker as being of ‘Christian appearance’ or ‘Jewish appearance’?’

    Thanks also for all the comments from the non-trolls. The trolls have arrived here in bucketfulls needless to say.

    There were one or two comments from RD on the Werrity and Usmanov and preceding threads but on this one and the two previous, there are dozens. The RI has also been called back in we note. Interesting?

    Keep going everyone.

  48. Keith Crosby

    24 May, 2013 - 8:14 am

    Pre-disposition? Careful Craig, you’re straying into “us” and “them” territory, when showing that you were a “them”, by refusing to collaborate with the British state’s terror apparatus is what got you into such trouble.

    The squaddie was a volunteer, knew the risks and took the money. It’s a pity he’s dead but no more a pity than are the hecatombs of dead his terrorist organisation has done so much to create. If the two killers had done the deed sitting down in a helicopter in Afghanistan, would they be labelled as monsters or “pre-disposed”? I doubt it.

  49. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:22 am

    “It is clear that some of the commenters are finding it difficult to accept that this was a heinous and unjustified act, carried out in the name of Islam.”

    With so many other possibilities available why should people always plump for the ‘official’ narrative provided by politicians and media as if they are some kind of divine light of truth? There was no machete and equally there may be no ‘Muslim terrorists’ shouting Allah Akbhar and there may have been no ‘beheading’.

    News has often been manufactured throughout history in order to advance a political agenda and this is simply a part of that, the events are real, the consequences are real but the motives are false.

  50. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:29 am

    A ‘royal commentator’ and the psychologist Linda Papadopoulos were reviewing the papers on Sky News. They thought this piece was excellent and helpfully reminded us that the H for H website crashed yesterday due to the deluge of visits. Truly heart warming they said.

    You may laugh at the strange miscellany of names and faces here.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4940297/Top-Gear-host-Jeremy-Clarkson-and-other-celebrities-urge-people-to-stand-in-solidarity-with-murdered-Lee-Rigby-and-support-Help-for-Heroes.html

  51. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 8:40 am

    During the video interview of the ranting ‘terrorist’ he exhorts the viewers to ‘remove your government’ – now here’s a man who’s faith in Western democracy should put us all to shame.

  52. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 8:43 am

    THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE

    Since the tragic news emerged that a serving soldier had been murdered in Woolwich, we have been overwhelmed with people
    spontaneously choosing to show their support for the Armed Forces.

    Help for Heroes was born out of a simple desire to assist the wounded and that remains unchanged. All funds we receive are used to provide direct, practical support to those affected by their service to our country.

    We ask all our volunteers, fundraisers and donors to respect the victim’s family, colleagues and friends who are grieving.

    If you do choose to support those who have been wounded, injured or become sick you can do so in the following ways:

    By donating online or by texting “HERO” to 70900 to donate £5.

    If you wish to buy supporter items from our shop, please go to shop.helpforheroes.org.uk.

    If you have a media enquiry please email our team on prcomms@helpforheroes.org.uk or call us on 01725 514 276

    Team H4H

    ~~

    Their trustees and patrons. All human life is there.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_for_Heroes

    Income £46,703,000
    Spending -£17,051,000
    http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1120920&SubsidiaryNumber=0

    I see the Advocate General is on the list of trustees. Another {military} judge advocate sent Ft Lt Kendall-Smith to prison plus £20,000 costs for refusing to return to Iraq.

    A ruling on 22 March 2006, by the judge advocate Jack Bayliss, concurred. Bayliss dismissed Kendall-Smith’s argument, ruling that he must face trial by court martial and would not be allowed to argue that the order to deploy was illegal.[6] Obviating Kendall-Smith’s argument that any participation in the war effort was unlawful on the basis of an illegal invasion, Bayliss asserted that British forces had full justification under UN resolutions 1511 and 1546 to be in Iraq at the time the charges were filed against Kendall-Smith in June and July, 2005.[6] The judge advocate also rejected Kendall-Smith’s claim that by serving in Iraq he could be complicit in a crime of aggression. Such a crime “cannot be committed by those in relatively junior positions such as that of the defendant. If a defendant believed that to go to Basra would make him complicit in the crime of aggression, his understanding of the law was wrong,” Bayliss said.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Kendall-Smith

    A travesty.

  53. Cleared diplomat John Yapp criticises Foreign Office

    The former UK High Commissioner to Belize, who was removed from his post amid claims of sexual misconduct and bullying, has spoken of his “humiliating” fight to clear his name.

    John Yapp, of Eastbourne, East Sussex, lost his post in 2008 over claims he inappropriately touched women.

    The allegations were dropped but he then faced claims he had bullied staff.

    The High Court ruled the Foreign and Commonwealth Office broke his contract and failed in its duty of care to him.

    Mr Yapp said it had all been “profoundly humiliating”.

    He said he had an unblemished diplomatic career for 37 years before a former foreign minister in Belize alleged he had inappropriately touched women.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-22646338

  54. A mostly good post Craig but the conclusion is wrong, I believe.

    You have described violent murders as sociopathic. Sociopaths are estimated to be around 2% of the population, yet most bloody killings in theatres of conflict are certainly not committed by sociopaths. Predisposition to violence is not necessarily an illness. It’s an extreme attribute of human nature.

    Violent crimes should not be conflated with each other, either. We can’t begin to solve problems that lead to violent crime if we bundle them up and throw them together in the ‘too hard basket’. There are uniquely arbitrary outbursts of violence that have many explanations from mental illness and brain tumours to emotional rages of frustration and hatred. The murder of an Afghan child by a British soldier might fit into this category and should be studied to identify potential preventative measures.

    But then there is purposeful cold-blooded violence like mafia murders, political assassinations and public executions. The UK had hanging, drawing and quatering on its books for high treason as late as the 19th century, I believe. This method of dealing with traitors was more bloody and savage than that suffered by the poor soldier, Lee Rigby. And it was purposeful with a terrifying message for anyone who had any ideas of undermining the crown. Terrorism, you could call it.

    Michael Adebolajo is the alleged killer and, if we accept this without quibbling, we can say that he was certainly purposeful in his killing of Lee Rigby. But his purpose was not just to kill a British soldier, it was to send a terrifying message to people who are engaged in or appear to be associated with military action that results in the deaths of Muslims. Lee Rigby’s body was dragged onto the road in order to display his mutilated remains to the public. The murder was political in its purpose and consistent with the teachings of his faith. Terrorism, you might say.

    What is the underlying cause? What are the common elements?

    Is it too controversial to suggest that most violent crimes are committed by younger males who are fit and strong? Look at violent crime around the world. Ignore “race”, culture, religion and politics – most crimes are committed by younger males. Of course, some clever types will say that not all young males are predisposed to violence. And I say not all men are rapists. So what?

    Many young males, the sort who you would have a beer with and watch a football game, will readily turn to violence when the conditions are right. Anybody see any riots lately?

    And all of these males who are prepared to use violence under certain conditions are also readily programmable for violence in the name of a Great Cause. The 20th century is full of such causes. Young men who are ignorant, restless, emotionally immature, sexually excitable – all in search of a Great Cause into which they can channel their energies. All you need is an idea to put them to work.

    Michael Adebolajo found a Great Cause – one that has over a thousand years of glorious history. When Michael spoke to a witness who recorded his statement on her phone, he was lucid, rational and apologetic for the impact the killing had on passing women. He described why he committed the murder and what he hoped to achieve. 

    Michael Adeboljo is not crazy. He is just a restless, lost soul who wants to be part of something Great.

  55. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 9:19 am

    I went to see a Dennis Potter play yesterday, Blue Remembered Hills. It was very well performed by Northern Stage. It was a Play for the Day in 1973 when the BBC commissioned decent thought-provoking drama.

    Dennis Potter took the title from this wonderful little A E Housman poem.

    Into my heart an air that kills
    From yon far country blows:
    What are those blue remembered hills,
    What spires, what farms are those?

    That is the land of lost content,
    I see it shining plain,
    The happy highways where I went
    And cannot come again.

    A synopsis.

    ‘On an idyllic summer afternoon in wartime, seven children play, tease and fight their day away. Willie is pretending to be a Spitfire, Raymond is dressed as a cowboy and Angela doesn’t want to share her china doll with Audrey. And while John and Peter are vying to be leader of the gang, who is that little boy left alone in the barn…? Amidst their hilarious games and complex friendships the merriment turns sour when they stumble into a sudden and unexpected tragedy that will change their lives forever.

    Potter’s charming and profound play captures humanity, his wicked humour and his fierce intolerance of cruelty, reminding us that no-one is ever truly innocent.’

    Potter speaks for our agony. There is no way to conjure back ‘the blue remembered hills’ unless by sheer will and with FACT. Take Question Time last night. A sensitive young man’s points re our arming of Saudi Arabia and about Palestine were squashed. They should have led to a discussion about ‘supreme war crimes’ and all that flows from them.

  56. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 9:24 am

    Guano has made merry of late with his little quips likening my comments to eggs.

    He might do well to reflect pn the following : is it better to be a hen that lays eggs out of its backside or the other product that seagulls drop out of their backsides off the coasts of far-away Chile?

  57. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 9:28 am

    Grownups! Take some deep breaths there.

    It seemed like the trolls were going to take over the assylum for a while. Even Dad appeared almost sane alongside Jemand.

    Hats off to Technicolour and all who have tried so valiantly to reason with that particular meme.

    Thanks to all (almost) for the mountain of info.

    I have a question for Dad, RD and Mr Kempe. I would be interested to hear from you what is the annual death-toll in the, so called, “War on Terror,” for any of the last five years, in these categories.

    1. Civilians of Muslim appearance.
    2. Civilians of Christian appearance.

    And, for each category, who produced / supplied the weapons?

    And Jemand, I know you don’t do facts so this question isn’t addressed to you.

  58. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 9:29 am

    @ post at 09h19 :

    a Denis Potter play – Question Time.

    Connection? Relevance (to anything)?

    I do note however that even April Shower’s extra-curricular activities are grist to her blog mill.

    No Harold Hobson she.

  59. The murder in Woolwich was part of Islamist terrorism which is an aggravating circumstance and justifies looking away the guilty parties for life as well as asking how such attacks might be prevented in future. I understand that one of them was a Islamist street ranter, so such people might need more careful watching.

    The soldier who stabbed a child while under the influence deserved severe punishment for his drunken violence, but that was not the same type of crime.

  60. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 9:39 am

    Ok.

    I know that’s asking too much, so I’ll ask instead, for every civilian victim of Islamist violence, how many civilian victims of “War on Terror” violence?

    My guess is that one number will have one, or at most, two zeros, and the other will have many more.

  61. Einstein: good catch.
    Machete: illiterate journo-school fodder. It is well known that black people spend their time murdering each other with machetes, therefore this was a machete…

    One that bothered me: R4 Today programme yesterday reported: “The suspects are said to be of Muslim appearance” (the announcer was careful to stress “said to be”…conclusion – this was an early police press release delivered verbatim)

    Well, damn me. I’d have put my foot in it and said they were both of African appearance (see link). And it turns out the parents of one (who have my complete sympathy, incidentally) were devout Christians. But now I know what a Muslim looks like*, I’ll never make the same mistake again.

    *Nothing like Menendez…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10076239/Woolwich-attack-suspects-were-known-to-security-services.html

    Before the usual suspects weigh in with the usual stuff, yes, it was a disgusting act by complete bastards professing ( but I doubt if they were practising, since crack cocaine has been mentioned in the context of their lifestyle) to be Muslims. Most Muslims will be as appalled by this as you profess to be, usual ones. If you’re a British Muslim, whether of Muslim appearance or not, you’re British, and you don’t hack British people to death…this is widely understood. Still.

  62. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 9:49 am

    The RI is so-ooo silly. That synopsis was not written by me. It comes from the Northern Stage website.

    A Northern Stage Production

    Written by Dennis Potter

    Directed by Psyche Stott

    Into my heart an air that kills
    From yon far country blows:
    What are those blue remembered hills,
    What spires, what farms are those?
    AE Housman

    Almost 20 years after his death, Dennis Potter’s BAFTA-winning play is moving, funny and unforgettable.

    On an idyllic summer afternoon in wartime, seven children play, tease and fight their day away. Willie is pretending to be a Spitfire, Raymond is dressed as a cowboy and Angela doesn’t want to share her china doll with Audrey. And while John and Peter are vying to be leader of the gang, who is that little boy left alone in the barn…? Amidst their hilarious games and complex friendships the merriment turns sour when they stumble into a sudden and unexpected tragedy that will change their lives forever.

    Potter’s charming and profound play captures humanity, his wicked humour and his fierce intolerance of cruelty, reminding us that no-one is ever truly innocent.

    Visit blueremembered.co.uk for more about the show.
    ~~

    He/she/it suggests that I am no Harold Hobson as if I had put myself up as some theatrical reviewer. Suggest that he/she/it could be a latter day stand in for Kelvin McKenzie or the like if we are speaking of the press.

  63. Brixton 1983. Not terrorists. (then, terrorists had Irish accents and were not of Muslim appearance) Probable folk-memory of machetes formed here. Murder still unsolved. RIP.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock

  64. “The RI is so-ooo silly. That synopsis was not written by me. It comes from the Northern Stage website.”

    Mary, if you can’t use italics or blockquotes, perhaps more frequent use of quotation marks might be in order? For example, you seem (?) to have taken a large copy and paste from John Hilley at 8:10 am, and then, after ‘Jewish appearance’?’ you carry on in your own words with no apparent break.

    I had just come from John Hilley (via Brian’s link), and I didn’t need your large excerpt, thanks, but if you’re going to use copy and pastes, you might find a way to differentiate clearly between them and your own words. It would help. Thanks!

    —————-

    As for Help for Heroes, links would have been more than enough, for me. The word “Hero” has become badly debased. One assumes that a British soldier who stabs a young Afghan child, or perhaps tortures an Afghan adult, and is later wounded himself and flown home, is considered one of these “heroes”. Either there or on the Sky Wall
    http://news.sky.com/story/951515/fallen-heroes-tributes-to-the-fallen-british-military-personnel-in-afghanistan

  65. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:01 am

    Dreoilin to April Showers :

    “…but if you’re going to use copy and pastes, you might find a way to differentiate clearly between them and your own words. It would help. Thanks!”
    ——–

    My thoughts exactly. Thank you, Dreoilin.

    Of course April/Mary does this deliberately, it gives her an escape route (“oh, it wasn’t me, I was just quoting”). Very courageous!

  66. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:04 am

    “as if I had put myself up as some theatrical reviewer.”

    Doesn’t she? Poetry too, on occasion. No William Empson either.

  67. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:11 am

    In the video notice the blue car and the person casually walking between the car and the railings. If you then look at the aerial shot of the car it is clear that the person would have had to have walked right through the middle of a large pool of freshly spilled blood, no doubt that person would have even smelled the warm moist odour of that congealing blood, that person could not have failed to notice that the wide and long smear of blood that led into the road, whereupon a headless corpse lay – how can it appear that none of this is of the slightest concern to the person?

    So, what is happening to people that seeing someone beheaded in the street appears to be just part and parcel of everyday life? That people wander up to a headless corpse lying in the street, sit down beside it, rub it on the back, jump back up and continue chatting with other bystanders whilst hanging around doing nothing and with the corpse at their feet and while to fully armed murders are still present?

  68. This attack was as fake as the Boston bombings. There was no blood on the street around the victim even though they are said to have tried to cut off his head. There is no blood on the clothes of either attacker when they are pictured. If I came across two men trying to cut off someone’s head in the street I would run for my life or vomit not stand around watching and I certainly wouldn’t try and video a madman with two knives make a speech.

  69. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:22 am

    Dad!

    You are at it again!

    Dreoilin dealt effectively and politely with April’s literary crimes. Issue dealt with n’est pas?

    But not for Dad. Instead of answering my (simplified) question you went and told April off with your unique vindictive flair.

    I’m “On- Topic” for a change and I’m still waiting.

  70. “oh it wasn’t me, I was just clucking” Don’t worry, we know you cluck when you have typed your egg, and it wasn’t you that devised this Wollywood film of hacking an innocent victim without blood so that the real hacking job of bugging us all could go through parliament.

    I listened to pickles on R4 this morning. Bdok-bdok-bdok-bdok bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh . You’d have thought he’d just fertilised an entire battery of chickens, so pleased and smug was he to have found the false-flag ammunition to bring back the spyers’ charter bill.

    Incidentally hahachuckle chickens do also make g***o.

  71. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:29 am

    It is now coming out that the soldier was in fact not decapitated. So, no machete and no decapitation. Gosh, if it wan’t for that ranting interview people could be mistaken for thinking that this was just a brutal murder instead of the dawn of a new era of a new type of Islamic terrorist threat, one that David Cameron was already totally versed in even as the story was developing.

  72. Soufflé

    You’re so quick to rise to the slightest thing your dad does. I hate to split up a loving family, but do you not think it would be better if you left him alone for a while to do his own thing. No eggs and the cake will fall apart, but too many eggs and it will turn out like rock. We can cope with a little bit of proud neo-natal boasting.

  73. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:39 am

    Jesuit Atheist.

    Why let facts get in the way of a good story?

    As Mr Komodo pointed out “machette” carries powerful imagery of dark-skinned foreign savages and “beheading” is guaranteed to evoke strong visceral feelings in the target population. So why not throw them both in?

  74. You’d have thought (Eric Pickles had) just fertilised an entire battery of chickens…

    Perish the thought that he’d just eaten them instead. Along with all the pies and his weight in chips. Eh, Fred?

  75. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 11:42 am

    A large man has just hacked someone to death, his hands are covered in his victims blood, he walks towards you still carrying the weapons. Naturally you just stand there filming him….

    The more I watch that interview the more bollocks it is. At the end he turns to walk back to the corpse, look at him looking for his marker* on the road, you can even see it. The whole interview appears to have been prearranged right down to the camera angle, ensuring that we have the potent images of murderer with victim in the background – the directors cut.

    *actors will understand.

  76. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:42 am

    Guano.

    What? Like I can change my genes?

  77. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    24 May, 2013 - 11:48 am

    Ah, here we go – as I was expecting, a conspiracy theory (discount version)is emerging (MJones, Jesuit Atheist). All aboard, chaps and chapesses!

  78. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 11:59 am

    Dad.

    I’m still waiting for you to answer a simple question.

  79. Touché Soufflé

    Which came first? I suggest you modify his genes and wait for Mr Pickles to do the rest.

    Yes Habba conspiracy. Messy I know, but to make a good Home=lette, you have to break a few – precious – eggs.

  80. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    23 May, 2013 – 9:13 pm

    My nomination for the idiotic comment of the day :

    Doug Scorgie (for it was he), who wrote at 0h59

    “In the final analysis the machete was supplied by the Foreign Office.”

    Halfakunt doesn’t know what a metaphor is!!

    Metaphorically speaking is a turn of phrase that means that what has been said has not to be taken literally.

    You are an arse. (Metaphorically speaking).

  81. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 12:22 pm

    Habbabkuk: Do try and add something to the debate.

    Explain why everyone is talking about a soldier being decapitated with a machete when no such thing has actually happened?

    And if that is not true then maybe those guys are not Muslim terrorists after all eh? Think about that bit did you?

  82. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    23 May, 2013 – 9:21 pm

    When people commit crime there are no excuses but there are reasons (unless the criminal is insane).

    If a man kills a woman (or vice versa) one reason could be jealousy another could be financial advantage, whatever.

    If someone burgles a house it is usually to steal items to sell, perhaps to feed a drug habit, perhaps to pay off debts or just to supplement a low income.

    These are reasons (motives if you prefer) not excuses.

    You don’t seem to understand the difference HB.

  83. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 12:30 pm

    Sofia

    The reason why your Dad is ignoring you is probably because he thinks it was a stupid question – but as I am a generous soul the answer to both 1 and 2 is zero since despite what certain silly old ladies may have told you religous beliefs (or criminal beliefs for that matter) do not manifest themselves in appearances. You might also wish to reflect that numbers of victims do not have always have a bearing on the rights and wrongs of military actions e.g. the number of British and US victims of WW2 were considerably less than those of Nazi Germany but that doesn’t mean that we wrong in waging that war or that any unhinged Nazis would be justified in attacking off duty solidiers with a meat cleaver.

  84. Pretty inefficient conspiracy, I’d say, if the murderers have to hang around for 20 minutes for the AR squad to come and shoot them. Even with blanks, if your conspiracy theory wanders that far.

    Ok. Two big demented lowlifes with cleavers and a gun start on a citizen near you. You’ve probably never seen a citizen being hacked to death before, and he’s making loud and extremely distressing noises. What do you do? Interpose your person between them? Well, of course you would. Any conspiracy theorist would, wouldn’t they? Pity there wasn’t one there.

  85. “You are an arse. (Metaphorically speaking).”

    I think you’ll find that, in its current context, that’s a tautology, not a metaphor, Doug.

  86. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 12:44 pm

    Komodo: “Two big demented lowlifes with cleavers and a gun start on a citizen near you… What do you do? Interpose your person between them?”

    No, you just stand around casually filming them giving an after event interview? Get a grip man, it’s utter bollocks. No machete, no decapitation, but the Islamic terrorist bit is true right?

  87. April Showers

    24 May, 2013 - 12:47 pm

    Good for the two judges here

    24 May 2013

    ‘Iraq abuse claims: ‘Inadequate response’ by UK government
    The MoD has held inquiries into abuse in Iraq

    Related Stories
    Iraqis claim UK forces ‘brutality’
    Iraqi eyewitness: Mistreatment by UK troops

    The British government’s response to claims that British troops abused and unlawfully killed civilians in Iraq was inadequate, the High Court has ruled.

    Lawyers representing 180 Iraqi civilians had called for a full public inquiry in Britain.

    The court stopped short of ordering such an inquiry, but said there should be a series of further investigations into the allegations.

    It said “a new approach” to the inquiry into the allegations was needed.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22655384

    The Judgement.

    ‘PRESIDENT OF THE QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION
    MR JUSTICE SILBER
    ____________________
    Between: R (ALI ZAKI MOUSA and others)
    Claimants

    – and –

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE
    Defendant
    ____________________

    Michael Fordham QC, James Maurici, Danny Friedman QC, Dan Squires (instructed by Public Interest Lawyers) for the Claimants

    James Eadie QC, Philip Havers QC and Kate Grange (instructed by The Treasury Solicitor) for the Defendants

    Hearing dates: 11 December 2012, 29-31 January and 22 March 2013’

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/1412.html

    The multiple lawyers have done well out of the case.

    Enough inverted commas there I trust for the pedantic Dreoilin?
    Synonyms Pedantic – punctilious – donnish – priggish – meticulous

  88. ‘This attack was as fake as the Boston bombings. There was no blood on the street around the victim even though they are said to have tried to cut off his head.’

    MJones- either you have a Ph.D in advanced bullshittery or you’re the real ‘troll’.

    This you tube clip, to say the least, undermines your fanciful theory-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtV7qkuNnk

    I nominate you as the MI5/Mossad/ANOther Troll Of The Day and claim my £10 reward

  89. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 12:51 pm

    RD.

    Thanks for at least trying.

    You missed the point so let me ask it again as simply in simple language.

    1. How many civilians get killed by Islamic terrorists in the real world?

    2. How many civilians get billed by those waging the “War on Terror” in the real world?

    Is that easy enough for you to understand?

  90. Kempe @9.40PM

    I rarely agree with your comments, and you’ve had the troll handle thrown at you a few times, but you are spot-on in your criticism here.

  91. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 12:54 pm

    “Pretty inefficient conspiracy, I’d say, if the murderers have to hang around for 20 minutes for the AR squad to come and shoot them. Even with blanks, if your conspiracy theory wanders that far.”

    I have no ‘conspiracy thoeory’, I am pointing out anomalies and factual errors in the reporting of a murder because, for some reason, the journalists in this country can’t seem to manage the most basic duties of their chosen career.

  92. Fedup
    23 May, 2013 – 9:11 pm

    I said to Fedup:

    “Everything you said in this post confirms you to be an establishment troll.”

    I take that statement back and apologise to Fedup.

    I was under the influence of liquid refreshments when I read his original comment.

  93. No, you just stand around casually filming them giving an after event interview? Get a grip man, it’s utter bollocks. No machete, no decapitation, but the Islamic terrorist bit is true right?

    If the want to talk instead of having a go at me I encourage them to talk, friend. No machete, sure. Meat cleaver, knife, gun but no machete. No decapitation? Disappointed by that, are you? Not enough for you that the soldier’s dead? And if the guy says to camera that he is avenging the deaths of Muslims, then I have to incline to the view that he’s got something going for Islam.

    That said, it is arguable that no definition of terrorism that includes the Woolwich murder can conceivably exclude drone strikes. I give you that much, readily. And so does Glenn Greenwald:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback

  94. Habbabkuk

    So two men just murder a soldier, hang around to be arrested and that doesn’t seem a little odd to you. Conspiracy theorist seems to mean person with common sense these days. The main stream media has shown itself to be little more than a government spokesman, they do very little investigation and just repeat what they have been told by the authorities. If that doesn’t encourage you to have a more critical view of what they try and sell you as the truth don’t criticise me for being more than a little reluctant to.

  95. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 1:07 pm

    “Pretty inefficient conspiracy, I’d say, if the murderers have to hang around for 20 minutes for the AR squad to come and shoot them.”

    If they had run off or been shot by one of the hundreds of armed soldiers stationed just yards away in the barracks (yes, where were they?) we would never have known that they were “Muslim terrorists” would we?

    In fact if it wasn’t for the hanging around and the interview we wouldn’t even “know” they were “Muslim terrorists” would we? They could have just been some drug crazed scumbags. So, in fact, the hanging around works in favour of this being a staged event.

  96. Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake

    24 May, 2013 - 1:11 pm

    Oops! I must not write in haste!

    Sorry, a freudian slip there, “How many civilians get billed……”

    Well we all pay for damned killing don’t we? But I think even the most trollish understood what I was really asking.

    So Dad, Mr Kempe and RD, I’m still waiting for an answer for my “stupid question”.

  97. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 1:14 pm

    Also, there is no doubt that journalists were being briefed by ‘officials’ throughout the event, using phrases like “said to be” and “reported to have said” etc.

    This is how journalists interject their source’s material into their reports. And what was mostly the subject of these “said to be”‘s and “reported to have said”‘s? Their links to Islamic terrorism and the internet… basically some government/police spokesperson is whispering in the journalists ear ‘moslem terrorists radicalised on the internet’ and Nick Robinson and co. dutifully repeat verbatim.

  98. Jesuit Atheist

    24 May, 2013 - 1:20 pm

    “No machete, sure. Meat cleaver, knife, gun but no machete. No decapitation? Disappointed by that, are you?”

    Disappointed with the level or journalism mate, and to be honest disappointed that people swallow it so willingly.

    A young man was murdered in the most brutal fashion and I believe that he was murdered to further a political agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam or the stated motives of the killers.

    Why do you have a problem with me holding this view?

  99. doug scorgie

    24 May, 2013 - 1:21 pm

    MJones
    24 May, 2013 – 11:14 am

    “This attack was as fake as the Boston bombings.”

    MJones, don’t be silly.

  100. resident dissident

    24 May, 2013 - 1:22 pm

    Sofia

    I think you missed my point that conflicts are not always about a numbers game – I don’t really want to go through the whole argument about Western Intervention and Islamism as my guess is that it would only generate heat rather than light here. But perhaps you should just consider a little something in Lindsey German’s statement yesterday – where she pointed to the recent increase in sectarian violence in Iraq. THis has happened – but what she failed to point out that the level has reduced very substantially in recent years – but rather than trying to identify steps to try and get things back on course (and reduce the level of killing which results) she wanted to try and link this to what is pretty clearly a sectarian assault on our streets in London. Do you really think this is the behaviour of those who want to reduce violence or killings in the future – or is it perhaps the behaviour of those trying to justify an histroic political position and indulging in point scoring.

    MJones

    Of course it was a conspiracy – nearly all criminal acts are – it is just not the one that you and others are now trying to fashion in order to fit your political preferences.

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