Talking Turkey 362


To simply say “protestors good, government bad” in Turkey is a symptom of the Blair delusion, that in civil conflicts there are guys with white hats and guys with black hats, and that the West’s role is to ride into town and kill the guys in the black hats. That is what “liberal intervention” means. The main aim of my second autobiographical book, “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo”, was to explain through the truth of the Sierra Leone experience how very, very wrong this is.

In fact civil conflicts are usually horribly complex, anent a variety of very bad people all trying to gain or retain power, none of them from an altruistic desire to make the world a better place. There may be ordinary people on the streets with that altruistic desire, being used and manipulated by these men; but it is not the ordinary altruistic people on the streets who ever come to power. Ever.

In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.

The Turkish people I was with were natural Erdogan supporters, and what struck me very forcibly was the fact that he has sickened many of his own natural allies by the rampant corruption in Turkey at present. Almost everyone I met spoke to me about corruption, and Turkey being Turkey, everyone seemed to know a very great deal of detail about how corruption was organised in various building and development projects and who was getting what. It therefore is hardly surprising that the spark which caused this conflict to flare to a new level was ignited by a corrupt deal to build a shopping centre on a park. The desecration of something lovely for money could be a metaphor for late Erdogan government.

The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.

People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.

So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them

But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism

For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.

There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.

The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.

When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.

Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.

Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won’t. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.

We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.


362 thoughts on “Talking Turkey

1 10 11 12 13
  • Anony

    Trivia, This song was allegedly played by the Greek side on radio in Cyprus:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRwuDdqbAzk

    To taunt the Turks who waited for the help to come from Turkey. The song is literally translated as, “I waited but you didn’t come.”

    Really nice in understanding the mindset at the time. Isn’t it?

  • Anony

    One of the trending topics on twitter, is #ProvokatörTayyip (Provocateur PM Tayyip).

    He blamed,smeared and insulted the protesters.

    “#ProvokatörTayyip The list of lies:
    1- Protestors drink alchohol in the mosque
    2- Protestors killed the police
    3- Protestors are minority”

  • Macky

    @Komodo, Well then, if most of what I wrote is “utter crap”, you should easily be able to point out any factual inaccuracies, and contrary to what you may think, I most eagerly & do gratefully welcome corrections to any mistakes or mis-apprehensions in my knowledge.

    “blaming everyone but the Greeks”

    Did I deny that atrocities were (also) committed by the Greek side ?!

    Rather, it seems to be you that wants to put any British & Yank blame for the tragedy of Cyprus onto the victims themselves, especially the Greeks, which I’ll come back to; firstly though, it has to be said that you are coming across as a typical “White Man’s Burden Apologist” for the crimes of Empire, always denying the historical record in preference to blaming “the natives” for any bloodshed. I think it’s no coincidence that you once got into trouble on this Blog with your views on immigration, and I must admit that I do detect in your postings on Israel/Palestine, a sense of more venting to attack all things Israeli, rather than pure concern for the injustices being inflicted on the Palestinians, which makes me wonder if this Israel animosity is actually more to do with the British being successfully driven out of Palestine by the Zionists; you once alluded to your military background, so it all does seem to tie-in.

    Regarding your persistent hostility when it comes to the Greeks, I have generally found people either admire Greek historic & cultural contributions, and regard them as an important part of the common heritage of all, or they have a strong distain & superior attitude to all things Greek, which I think can only come from a massive envious shoulder-chip.

    Fortunately the first group of people, which can be termed as Philhellenes, vastly outnumbers the spitefully jealous & mean-spirited second group.

    “but in no sense resident:”

    http://www.cyprusembassy.net/home/index.php?module=page&pid=23

    Hmmm indeed !

    (Oh dear, I see Anony is also keen to display his ignorance of Cyprus, perhaps he may able to point out any factual inaccuracies in what I have posted; I await with grateful anticipation from both my interlocuteurs to correct any lack of knowledge that I may suffer from).

  • Blue

    Hi Craig,

    Well done on an excellent piece!

    Also even more well done on standing up to the predictably aggressive, indoctrinated and furious Kemalists with their cliches and regurgitations of banal propaganda.

    A couple of points.

    1. You are totally right, many of these secular and westernized youth are socially liberal but social liberalism does not mean political liberalism. Many of them including the fascist and anti-Kurdish CHP would have been totally supportive of far more brutal Turkish police action in Diyarbakir or Bingol than what they have experienced now.

    2. Having said that, Erdogan was good in the beginning and genuine liberals in Turkey did support him. He should be commended for trying to resolve the Kurdish issue and despite all this talk of him not seeking consensus and ignoring people, he has done precisely that i.e. sought consensus and spoken to senior intellectuals in terms of the 63 wise men whom include academics, artists and others who have been commissioned to resolve the Kurdish problem.

    However he has his flaws and some of the things levelled against him are true, but he is no way the monster that the Kemalists on here seek to potray him.

    3. Ataturk had good points too e.g. womens rights, education, seeking to emancipate the lower class from what was essentially a semi-feudal society.

    However Ataturk was a dictator and clamped down on other Muslim Turkish generals who formed their own party and did not want a hostile and radical war against Muslim values. A war which has caused so much trauma and division that it impacts Turkish society today with the religious being called “yobaz” and headscarved girls being insulted as “Turbanli” (Turban wearers).

    4. Kemalists are taught, and teach, that Ataturk was the beginning of Turkey, a year zero version of history.

    Late Ottoman Turkey had been westernizing/”modernizing” since Mahmud II and the Tanzimat, the Ottoman state ceased being an “Islamic state” or what would be considered an Islamic state by pro-Caliphate or “Islamist” groups today in the 19th century, though the country and society remained very conservative.

    If Ataturk had not clamped down against his political opponents such as Kazim Karabekir then there would have been a less militant anti-religious state.

    5. Ataturk merely enforced the ideologies prevalent amongst many in the late Ottoman elite who were heavily influenced by the French and this included adoption of militant French-style laicisim, very hostile to religion, and also French centralism in building a mono-ethnic state, thus suppression of the Kurds.

    Ataturk may have been a fascist of sorts but he was also a neo-Jacobin in the tradition of the French Jacobins who hated religion as many in the late Ottoman elite were.

    The intellectual debate in Turkey in the past few years has been the AKP and other liberals calling for a moderate “Anglo-Saxon secularism” as opposed to a militant French-type secularism or “laicism”.

    Muslim people have been oppressed the past few decades in Turkey, with religious people sometimes being fired or losing their jobs if they were found to be pious and even today in many elite Istanbul companies employees are not expected to fast in the month of Ramadan, as the Kemalist urban elite do more and more to express their rejection of Islam. Drinking alcohol was not much of a rejection of secularism as many pro-Muslim people did it (Konya, one of the most “Islamic” areas in Turkey has the highest consumption of raki), so secular Kemalists instead started eating pork to signal their rejection of Muslim values, and now also not observing Ramdan.

    The army was particularly repressive to Muslims and prayer was forbidden.

    6. All of the above was artificially implemented by a state-backed Republican elite who were a minority against the conservative majority and with democracy that would have to come to an end.

    The Istanbul demonstrators do not represent the majority of Turks though they do represent the educated classes. However they are ultra-nationalistic and live in denial about the reality of Turkey and the oppression that Kurds and others have suffered, and have an obsessive veneration of Ataturk.

    7. Is the AKP perfect?

    No.

    Do they contain hardcore “Islamists” in the party, yes they do. But no sensible person in Turkey entertains the notion of implementing an Iranian style society in Turkey, when even the pre-Ataturk Ottoman state was nothing like that even the 100 years before Ataturk.

    The core power base of the AKP is the Milli Gorus and the Naqshbani (“Nakisbendi” in Turkish) Sufi order.

    Would some of them ideally want a complete ban on alcohol in Turkey? Yes definitely, however they in their minds think this is unrealistic and would take decades to be enforcable in a far more “Islamic” society.

    However you are totally right when you said the AKP has liberalized Turkey more than another party. Under the AKP:

    a: Kurds now have some cultural autonomy e.g. Kurdish TV.
    b: Christians are being rehabilitated with Christian places of worship for Greeks and Assyrians being restored.
    c: People are allowed to express their non-Turkic idenities e.g. Circassian, Laz etc i.e. the “Turk” v “Turkiyeli” debate.
    d: Muslims are freer to practise their religion though not completely.

    There is still much to be done.

    8. The biggest irony is all those Kemalists complaining about police repression ignore the fact that Kemal himself massacred between 14,000-70,000 Alevis in Dersim (Tunceli) from 1937-38.

    The Gezi Park riots have so far cost 3 lives, Ataturk’s massacre of Alevis was between 14,000-70,000 lives.

    Gezi Park rioters be thankful Erdogan is not as violent as Ataturk.

  • Macky

    Good & very interesting Post Blue !

    Of course Erdogan is far from faultless, and although he has tried to improve relations with Greece, he surreally still expects Turkey to enter the EU despite refusing to recognize one of its members (!), namely the republic of Cyprus.

    On the other areas iro EU membership, he has moved in the right directions;

    “EU governments praised the “full respect of democratic standards and the rule of law” in Turkey’s June 2011 parliamentary elections.”

    “The EU also welcomed the Yes vote in a Turkish referendum in September 2010, which gave the ruling AK Party the go-ahead to change the military-era constitution and bring it more into line with EU norms. “

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

    I see that he has moved against the protesters in Taksim Square today, but he has also agreed to call a meeting with protest leaders tomorrow; when you recall the violence & heavy custodial sentences the US used in crushing the Occupy demonstrators, it sort of put things into perspective; indeed just imagine a similar protest occupation in Trafalgar Sqaure, I don’t think it would last two days, nevermind two weeks, before tanks were being deployed !

    For people, especially Turks, to be posting here against the abuses of Erdogan but defending horrific crimes & dictatorial record of Kemalism, is proof of the rampant fascist nationalism that Craig is warning about.

    @ Anony

    Re Turkey & NATO; Following WW2, the West were paranoid about Countries turning to Socialism, leading to Britain military intervening in Greece, instigating & backing the Right in a bitter Civil war. They also feared the appeal of Socialism in Turkey, most people were extremely poor, and culturally Socialist in the sense that they share what they own and look after each other. To prevent this, but especially because of its long border with the USSR, starting in the 1950’s, the US & Britain took a special interest in Turkey, with all sorts of sticks & carrots, including membership of NATO to protect against the Soviet Bogeyman.

    In fact the World almost paid the ultimate price for Turkish paranoia & servitude to NATO, when Turkey allowed the stationing of US nuclear missiles aimed at the Soviets on its soil, as this is what lead directly to the Soviets retaliating by sending nuclear missiles to Cuba, so causing the so-called “Cuban Missiles Crises”, which should more accurately be called the “Turkish Missiles Crises” !

  • Anony

    Blue is an Erdogan apologist. From the way, Macky greeted him/her. It would seem we had another one here already.

    Don’t have time to answer right now.

    Just came to debunk all that wall of texts with few examples.

    Police firing and terminally wounding a protester at close range:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5psGJDU2xQ

    The guy died later in the hospital.

    This morning police and the government took the stage with another play.

    Civillian clothed police members started to chuck molotov cocktails at the police who suddnely decided that they would take down the “don’t bow down.” posters and replace them with Ataturk and Turkish flag. Really good ploy.

    And somehow members from SDP,a leftist party, started attacking the police. Even though, most of their members(nearly all), were barricaded in by the police in another part of the town.

    Now that, the protesters were shown to the media as the troublemakers. Erdogan just now spoke and tore into them and painted them as the public enemy.

    Police theatre:

    https://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/5736/20445736.jpg
    https://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/5801/20445801.jpg
    https://media-cache-ak1.pinimg.com/originals/ed/21/36/ed2136439d8209a2cce921887de228f9.jpg

    Notice the bulges on them. They can’t even go anywhere without their guns or their precious walkie talkies.

    So yes. AKP is far from perfect. And their apologists are worse.

    Don’t worry,I will make fun of your excuses for them later too. Just wanted to show what kind of a political party you were defending:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LkDWYknXwA

  • Komodo

    Basically, Macky, it was Makarios and his merry men who wanted enosis – union with Greece. It wasn’t a US stitch-up. It was wholly-owned by the Greeks and their men on Cyprus. The same people are still there, in temporary eclipse. They wear Greek flag lapel pins. They’re easy to spot. Craig talks about the sinister rightwingers behind the scenes at Taksim – he should take a look at Limassol.
    I have nothing particularly against Greeks, but I find Turks a lot easier to get on with, possibly because they don’t imagine I should express a debt of gratitude for their ancient culture, or have much patience for Socratic dialogue. And regarding British imperial preconceptions, our governance of Cyprus was of the two people living in a fair degree of harmony, side by side: mosques and churches in the same street. Other versions of history to the partisan one you presumably cut-and-pasted from, without attribution, place the blame squarely on the enosis crew, and add that they chased the Turks remorselessly. Forces contacts add that the Greeks were just as hostile to the British, and that they were the dirtiest fighters imaginable.

    And once again, I find you conflating two distantly related events in order to confuse the issue. The Turkish invasion of the island was in response to the very clear political message that the Greek Cypriots would not consider a fair accommodation with the Turkish population. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the invasion, the result has been a huge, if forced, reduction in intercommunal violence.

    Please forgive any typos – migraine aura, and I can’t see the middle of the screen. It has no effect on my intellect, however.

  • Anony

    Now they are arresting the lawyers who volunteered to defend the arrested protesters.

    AKP isn’t perfect,yes. Not by a long,long,LONG shot.

  • Anony

    “The protests, he has said, are undemocratic plots to topple his government, which was elected with 50 percent support in 2011.”

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/406743/No-tolerance-Turkish-PM-s-uncompromising-words-as-riot-police-storm-Taksim-Square

    This is what we are dealing.

    “As the massive police operation unfolded in Istanbul today, Erdogan told protesters: “It’s over.”

    “As of now we have no tolerance for them,” Erdogan said.

    “Not only will we end the actions, we will be at the necks of the provocateurs and terrorists and no one will get away with it,” he added.”

    He is painting the movement as the bad guys. Now they are arresting lawyers.

  • Villager

    “For people, especially Turks, to be posting here against the abuses of Erdogan but defending horrific crimes & dictatorial record of Kemalism…”

    Kindly quote when you refer to fellow commenters especially when being derogatory.

    ” In fact the World almost paid the ultimate price for Turkish paranoia & servitude to NATO, when Turkey allowed the stationing of US nuclear missiles ”

    They were US missiles and YOUR NATO! A little manipulative sleight of hand to observe.

    “indeed just imagine a similar protest occupation in Trafalgar Sqaure, I don’t think it would last two days, nevermind two weeks, before tanks were being deployed !”

    Since you are so obsessed with history, when was the last time that happened?

    “he surreally still expects Turkey to enter the EU despite refusing to recognize one of its members (!), namely the republic of Cyprus.”

    Do you mean the bankrupt EU?
    ——-
    Always comparing, remembering, measuring with the past, stuck in history, obscuring the ‘what-is’ in the now. Check out the police brutality today in Central London by no less than 1200 policemen against some 400 or so peaceful protestors. Its the same thing happening around the world…repression and rip-offs. There’s a peoples change happening — keep your finger on the pulse rather than post-mortems.

  • Villager

    There is one PELIN GUNDES BAKIR ON C4 news — total propaganda bitch. Macky catch up on her lies and tell me if she isn’t a complete sham. Appalling interview on behalf of the channel — just let the propagandist roll-on.
    Good luck Anony — never give up!

  • Villager

    I should add she was literally reading from a written script! Unbelievable!!

  • Macky

    @Komodo,

    “Basically, Macky, it was Makarios and his merry men who wanted enosis – union with Greece.”

    Actually from since independence in 1960, Makarios made many enemies amongst the Greek Right Nationalists, as despite polls which shown near 100% of the overwhelming majority of 80% of the population wanting enosis with Greece, ie the Democratic right of self-determination that the West proclaims it worth destroying Countries for, he realized that it was not possible without Turkey carrying out its long standing plan for annexing half the Island. He survived many attempts on his life because of this, mostly carried out by CIA sponsored Greek fascist nationalists.

    “It wasn’t a US stitch-up. It was wholly-owned by the Greeks and their men on Cyprus.”

    You really then need to explain then why the CIA put Junta in power in Athens, why it supported them, politically, materially & directionally; why the Junta executed the Coup in Cyprus & almost managed to finally assassinate Makarios, a man immensely personally hated by Kissinger.

    “The same people are still there, in temporary eclipse. They wear Greek flag lapel pins. They’re easy to spot. Craig talks about the sinister rightwingers behind the scenes at Taksim – he should take a look at Limassol.”

    This is bizarre nonsense unless you can provide even remotely persuasive reasons to the contrary

    “I have nothing particularly against Greeks, but I find Turks a lot easier to get on with, possibly because they don’t imagine I should express a debt of gratitude for their ancient culture, or have much patience for Socratic dialogue.”

    Oh you don’t harbor any animosity towards the Greeks, apart from believing they are hard to get on with (!), that you think that they apparent expect everybody to express gratitude for their history (!), and that you much don’t particularly like the philosophy legacy bequeathed by the ancient Athenians ! Sorry but all this is just telling confirmation of those sorry types that have a huge envious chip & resulting hostility to all things Greek.

    “And regarding British imperial preconceptions, our governance of Cyprus was of the two people living in a fair degree of harmony, side by side: mosques and churches in the same street.”

    Oh dear, please rest assured that those mosques & churches existed side by side centuries before the British took control of Cyprus. They was no notably inter-communal conflict from the time of the Greek War of Independence of 1821, until the British stirred up the communities during the 1950’s; it’s called “Divide & Rule”, and surely you must of heard of this given your military background ! Think of, India, Ireland, Palestine, etc, long term peaceful co-existence between mixed populations, until British occupations, then suddenly massive sectarian bloodbaths, a very successful strategy, still being employed, witness , Iraq, Libya, Syria etc

    “Other versions of history to the partisan one you presumably cut-and-pasted from, without attribution, place the blame squarely on the enosis crew, and add that they chased the Turks remorselessly.”

    Please provide references, and then I will direct you to proper academic historical research undertaken by mostly by non-Greeks.

    “Forces contacts add that the Greeks were just as hostile to the British, and that they were the dirtiest fighters imaginable. ”

    Yes of course, must be true then. these are our same “brave boys” that have been known to be a bit more than dirty themselves, countless Baha Mousa type cases, not to mention grown men beating the daylights out of little children:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox7dEq7vI4Y&list=FLXt3Jtv6OH0Z5WtTTOMIqhg&index=94

    “And once again, I find you conflating two distantly related events in order to confuse the issue. The Turkish invasion of the island was in response to the very clear political message that the Greek Cypriots would not consider a fair accommodation with the Turkish population.”

    The only “fair accommodation” that was acceptable to Turkey, was its long cherished desire to ethnically cleanse & annexed the northern part of the island, which is exactly what it got thanks to the Britain & the US.

    “Whatever the rights and wrongs of the invasion, the result has been a huge, if forced, reduction in intercommunal violence.”

    Do you know the quote, “They created a desert, and called it Peace” ? Seems to sum-up the present situation; most of the occupied area is now a massive military zone, home to so many imported Turkish settlers, that many of the original indigenous Turkish Cypriots have either left for the UK, or to the Greek side. The only people who seem to want to live there now, seem to be fugitive criminals on the run, or Brits with more money than morals, who are keen to snap up “bargain” holiday homes in the Sun, that are the still legal properties of still living Greek Cypriots.

    “Please forgive any typos – migraine aura, and I can’t see the middle of the screen. It has no effect on my intellect, however.”

    When it comes to these matter, it seems your migraine is the least of your problems !

  • Komodo

    Macky, yeah, yeah. Central message, convincingly refuted by a random youtube clip – well done – is that even the awful Brits/ Americans/whoever we are required to blame, with their bloodthirsty and criminally antiGreek tendency to foment the annexation of Greece to Cyprus…or whatever…were appalled by the conduct of EOKA. FACT.

    Particularly liked the ad hominem at the end, btw. When those start flying, I know you’ve got nothing. And yes, it is the least of my two problems. The other being what to have for dinner tonight.

    Anyway, as others have said, and I’ve said twice already in this thread, the history is a distraction. Also it’s a long way off topic.

    Meanwhile, Erdogan will talk to some people who are nothing to do with Taksim, and reassure them that he’s got nothing against them:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/477815/20130612/germany-warns-turkey-erdogan-protests.htm

  • Villager

    Thank you Sophie — confirms what one thought.

    Thank you also Komodo.

    Macky, travel light and stay well! I sense you are carrying too many burdens. Perhaps we all are in our own way.

    But may Turkey remain/be free of Islam in its politics!

  • Macky

    Komodo: “Macky, yeah, yeah. Central message, convincingly refuted by a random youtube clip”

    LOL !! With a straight face presumably, you state that you consider a random Youtube clip as an authoritative source !!

    Initially you wrongly accused me of conflationing two separate issues, namely the Armenian Genocide, and the catastrophe at Smyrna, yet when I explained this, when no explaining was really necessary for somebody with any knowledge of the topic & was following the debate, that no, actually I was not referring to the Armenian Genocide at all, but to the mass murders of Greeks & Armenians by Kemalists troops in Smyrna. You didn’t have the courtesy to acknowledge this. You next responded to me after I posted about Cyprus, claiming that “Not much of that utter crap can be verified, even on Wiki”, when I had indeed provided the very Wiki links that I drew most of the data from ! I politely replied that if indeed it is mostly “utter crap”, you should easily be able to pull it all apart, yet strangely you have yet to do so; I gave specific details of how both British & American cynical meddling lead directly both to the inter-communal conflicts, and to the present division of the Island; your response, was to come back with the surreal “our governance of Cyprus was of the two people living in a fair degree of harmony, side by side” !!; you further stated that you are not anti-Greek per se, but at the same confessed to believing that they are hard to get on with, that you think that they apparent expect everybody to express gratitude for their history , and that you much don’t particularly like the Greek philosophy legacy !!

    No wonder you now want to cut & run, claiming “the history is a distraction. Also it’s a long way off topic “ !

    After this performance I take back my “Komodo is a regular here that I respect”, and for your sake I hope that not many of the other regular Posters have followed your debating performance here, otherwise you have probably will have lost the few that still respected you even after your infamous & revealing immigration views.

  • Anony

    Erdogan is still insulting the protesters. He calls them provocateurs,terrorists and talks about of how gezi park is reeking of piss and shit due to occupation by the people. Which is a lie. People have been good at keeping the parking clean and sanitized.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6g0MgrEijY

    This is what we are against.

  • Macky

    @Anony, you’ll be better posting on the new Thread, as it seems that where our fearful dragon has scurried off to;

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/pre-emptive-policing/#comment-412662

    While you are there, perhaps you can point him in the direction of this piece about Britain’s glorious colonial past, especially as it references Cyprus amongst others countries subjected to Komodo version of benevolent rule !

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/opinion/atoning-for-the-sins-of-empire.html?_r=0

  • Anony

    Macky, I still don’t have the time to answer to your posts, considering the situation in Turkey and other problems. Nevertheless, before I move to any other thread, I will answer your posts and show Blue that Akp isn’t even suitable to be used in the same sentence with the word “perfect”.

  • Anony

    The central press governing authority decided to punish the tv stations who reported on gezi park without bias.

    hayat tv got their press license revoked.
    halk tv got fined $80,000.
    karadeniz tv’s equipment was confiscated.

    Freedom of press. Not found.

  • Flaming June

    Turkey Threatens Doctors and First Responders, Violates Medical Neutrality
    by Margaret Flowers / June 15th, 2013

    The Turkish Health Ministry issued a threat to take medical licenses to practice away from doctors who have been providing treatment to the protesters in Istanbul. They are also demanding the names of all medical volunteers including Emergency Medicine Technicians. This threat constitutes a violation of the human right of the protesters to receive treatment and the principle of medical neutrality.

    Since May 27, peaceful protesters have been occupying Gezi Park in Istanbul, Turkey. The park is the last green space within the city and it was set to be demolished to build another of many shopping centers. What started with a few protesters trying to save the park has escalated to a national uprising over many grievances and the formation of coalition groups, including 180 organizations that formed Taksim Solidarity, to represent the people in negotiations with the government.

    However, the response by Prime Minister Erdogan has been severe and violent. He threatens the protesters daily. Riot police have repeatedly stormed the park and attacked protesters. They’ve used water cannons, pepper spray and shot tear gas canisters into crowds. The protesters have stayed strong against these assaults, doing what they can to protect themselves with helmets and gas masks made from plastic bottles, but so far more than 5,000 protesters have been injured, some critically, and 4 protesters are dead.

    /..

    http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/06/turkey-threatens-doctors-and-first-responders-violates-medical-neutrality/

  • Anony

    A random comment sums up the misconceptions and false info about Turkey’s political life:

    “Erdogan makes no sense. He has spent the last decade modernizing Turkey, the economy thriving, he wants to be in the EU. Yet now he has been enforcing a more stricter islamic social mores laws on the people at the same time the people have begun to live a more western lifestyle.

    Did someone take over his mind?”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/turkish-police-begin-to-clear-istanbuls-taksim-square/2013/06/15/119a730c-d5e8-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?hpid=z2

    This is what many in the west believe.Probably including Craig. That’s why he wrote this opinion piece.

1 10 11 12 13

Comments are closed.