Thoughts After Chilcot 910


I hope today that people will remember Elizabeth Wilmshurst, Carne Ross, and Katherine Gun, who were all prepared to give up excellent careers to stand against the war in Iraq.

Blair is still a creature of absolute self-serving slime. His attempt yesterday to justify the invasion of Iraq as an effort to prevent a 9/11 on British soil is dishonest in every way. Blair knew full well that Iraq had nothing at all to do with 9/11 – that was his still friends and financiers the Saudi elite. The intelligence advice in advance of the invasion he received was unequivocal that it would increase the threat to the UK, and it directly caused the attacks of 7/7.

The broadcast media seem to think the Chilcot report is an occasion to give unlimited airtime to Blair and Alastair Campbell. Scores of supporters and instigators of the was have been interviewed. By contrast, almost no airtime has been given to those who campaigned against the war.

Cameron’s speech to parliament was such an out and out, and dishonest, apologia for the invasion that it bore no relationship to the report. Corbyn is no orator, but his genuine moral outrage was justified. The Blairites who heckled him from behind during his speech are disgusting. If any meaningful democratic choice is to be offered to people in England and Wales, the Blairites have to be removed from the Labour Party to join with their fellow Tories.

The SNP are playing a blinder on Chilcot. I do hope Salmond moves forward with impeachment, not least because it will both force the Blairites to expose themselves, and reveal the deep feelings against Blair’s actions in the military linked wing of the Tory party.

As predicted, Chilcot had to repeat the Butler Inquiry’s verdict that the intelligence was not fixed, because Chilcot was himself on the Butler Inquiry. It is a lie, the intelligence was knowingly fixed. More on that later.

I apologise these are very brief thoughts. I have not had the opportunity to pay the attention you would expect, as my mother has been taken into hospital and I had yesterday to dash down to Norwich. It will be a few days before I am able to concentrate on politics.


910 thoughts on “Thoughts After Chilcot

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  • Burnt

    Chilcot obviously can’t mean that much to anyone if May is allowed to become PM. It can’t mean much to the Labour politcians now that they are putting forward the pro-war Eagle for leadership. The anti-democratic PLP just continues to slap the public in the face with their antics. What is even more amusing is to hear Eagle and other Blairites talk of the need for real opposition to the Tories. Where was that oppositional spirit for the past decade and a half? One just feels sorry for Eagle and all the others that are compelled interminably to spout nonsense. Surely they know they are nonsense, and it must be torture for them.

  • bevin

    “… the sitting Labour MPs were elected, in a general election, by a far, far larger number of the electorate than the number of Labour Party members who voted for Mr Jeremy Corbyn in the last leadership contest…”

    The answer is very simple: the MPs were selected by the Party Apparatus who controlled the nomination procedures and ensured that no new MPs likely to support socialism could be elected. This left Labour voters with a choice between pseudo Labour candidates and Tories. They chose pseudo-Labour. Except in Scotland where there was a non-Tory alternative.
    What they did not do is play any part in selecting the candidates.
    This is a form of that Democratic Centralism which notoriously led to the corruption and rotting away of the Soviet Communist Party. Self perpetuating oligarchies do not last long.
    Habbabkuk’s political and historical illiteracy never ceases to amaze.

    • lysias

      Same kind of democracy they have in Iran, where people can vote between the choices that they are presented but only those whom the mullahs approve can run.

      • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

        Strange comment from someone who has written admiring comments about the Iranian political system in the past.

        • glenn_uk

          Why don’t you simply agree, if you think his point is valid?

          This is the sort of thing that chokes decent conversation. Nobody is allowed to say anything if the slightest gap exists between the current point (even if you agree with it), and a slant on what might have been said before.

          Conceding failures in Iran’s political system should be welcomed if that’s what you believe. The clear ability to recognise the situation is not all black or white, good or bad, shows a sophistication more in line with the real world. Why would someone attack another who shows such perception, unless they simply want to intimidate that person in silence, trying to ridicule them at every step – even good steps?

          • lysias

            I may have written that Iran has at least as much democracy as we in the West have. I do not remember saying that on this forum, but I may have, since that is what I believe. But there is no contradiction between saying that and believing that Iran’s democracy is a limited one.

            In any case, I never answer the odious one (Do not feed the trolls.) In this case, I am answering you.

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            “I may have written that Iran has at least as much democracy as we in the West have”
            ________________

            There you go 🙂

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      That’s just a variant on the old argument which says there’s no difference between the Conservatives and Labour, isn’t it.

      Of course, it’s a convenient argument for those who are in denial.

      That’s why I have often said that I hope Mr Jeremy Corbyn will lead the Labour Party into the next general election because I look forward to hearing the next load of ingenious excuses with which various far-lefters will attempt to explain away the rout of the Left.

      Michael Foot and 1983 refer 🙂

      • glenn_uk

        “Explain away”?

        How about having the entire force of the Establishment against you, a unified voice of the corporate and billionaire-owned press, fifth columnists among your ranks, etc. etc.?

        Surely you don’t pretend that it’s a level playing field in such matters.

        • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

          There you go, Glenn – you’re doing it already 🙂

          That excuse will run and run…… and illustrates the point I was making perfectly.

          • glenn_uk

            Oh come on, what a cheap rhetorical trick.

            I could equally well assert that all Tories, their apologists and stooges, are liars, racists, thugs and thieves – and any argument to the contrary is simply further proof of that fact.

            In addition, any failure to contradict it is a full acceptance of the statement.

            Like that?

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            Gkenn

            What do you have against rhetorical tricks (if it was one)? Lots of people on here – starting with Craig himself – use them, surely?

  • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

    If the majority of Labour MPs have no confidence in Mr Corbyn as leader then he and the Labour Party as a whole have a problem whether or not he is re-elected as leader in accordance with the Labour Party’s electoral system.

    That is blindingly obvious and I only say it because there are some on here who give the impression of being in denial.

    Furthermore, let’s be honest and face it, unpalatable as it may be for some : the Labour MPs have been democratically elected by the people (yes, just like the people have democratically voted for Brexit 🙂 ) whereas Mr Corbyn’s supporters in the party at large are self-selected (just pay your £3 – talk about electoral shananigans! 🙂 ) and have been democratically elected by no one.

    • Ba'al's Sterilised Bargepole

      Not that democracy is going to be allowed to have anything to do with Brexit:

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-lawyers-idUKKCN0ZR0K2

      Lawmakers in parliament should decide whether Britain leaves the European Union because the Brexit vote was not binding, more than 1,000 prominent British lawyers said in a letter to Prime Minister David Cameron.

      The signatories, which include senior lawyers, said that lawmakers should have a free vote in parliament before any British leader takes the decision to trigger the formal EU divorce procedure by invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.

      A separate group of lawyers advising the British government has said the prime minister does not need parliamentary approval to start the process. The government has also rejected a petition for a second referendum.

      The letter is the latest attempt by opponents of Brexit to slow the divorce process. Some “Leave” campaigners say there is a concerted attempt by the British elite to prevent an EU departure by entangling any process in political and legal challenges.

      “Our legal opinion is that the referendum is advisory,” the lawyers said in a letter dated July 9 that was signed by 1054 lawyers. Reuters has a copy of the letter.

      “We believe that in order to trigger Article 50, there must first be primary legislation,” said the letter which was signed by 118 eminent lawyers known as Queen’s Counsel.

      Two of them undoubtedly being unelected Cherie Blair and unelected Charlie Falconer…

      • Alan

        ‘Lawmakers in parliament should decide whether Britain leaves the European Union because the Brexit vote was not binding, more than 1,000 prominent British lawyers said in a letter to Prime Minister David Cameron.’

        Cameron stands down on Wednesday, so do you seriously think he is even going to answer them, other than with two fingers as he walks out the door?

        • Ba'al's Bargepole

          First reply lost. My sockpuppet will have to deal with this. No, Cameron is now officially irrelevant. But I’d hate to be the PM giving two fingers to 180 QC’s – although that ‘we believe’ is significant as it indicates a Blairesque fact vacuum.

        • Ba'al Zevul

          [Recovered from spam filter]

          Ask the author of the piece, not me. Or maybe m’learned and eminent friends. I doubt May will be putting two fingers up, whatever else she decides to do. A wiggery* of QC’s on that scale could make life pretty difficult for a legislator. Personally, I think the clue is in ‘we believe…’ . Translated, that is Blairspeak for ‘in a certain light from my special x-ray reading lamp, if you squint, that might almost be credible, and I’ve got someone’s doctoral thesis to support it’.

          *Collective noun. Got a better one?

      • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

        Legitimate questions to Baal as deleted and therefore reposted again::

        1/. What about the other 998 lawyers?

        2/. Since when do lawyers have to be “elected” in order to give a legal opinion?

        3/. Would Baal adopt the same attitude to the letter from 1000 lawyers if the subject of the letter had been about – for instance – the legality of what Israel gets up to in the West Bank?

        (@ Mod(s) – the point of question 3 is to find out whether Baal would adopt the same attitude if there were a legal opinion supporting something he supports rather than something he disagrees with)

    • Alan

      ‘If the majority of Labour MPs have no confidence in Mr Corbyn as leader then he and the Labour Party as a whole have a problem whether or not he is re-elected as leader in accordance with the Labour Party’s electoral system.’

      Have you considered directly asking the Labour Party about this, instead of we who have no control over what they do?

  • michael norton

    Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she wanted to work “constructively” with Theresa May when she becomes the new prime minister.

    Mrs May will replace David Cameron as both PM and Tory leader after he takes part in his final PMQs on Wednesday.

    Ms Sturgeon congratulated the 59-year-old and wished her well “in a difficult and demanding job”.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36765349
    That’s very gracious of her.

  • bevin

    “If the majority of Labour MPs have no confidence in Mr Corbyn as leader then he and the Labour Party as a whole have a problem whether or not he is re-elected as leader in accordance with the Labour Party’s electoral system…”
    Obviously, any honest MP will return to his constituency and seek instructions from the party members there. S/he might not abide by those instructions but at least they will be plain and properly recorded.
    Any sensible CLP will take into account local public opinion before forming its own.
    Corbyn has absolutely nothing to fear provided that the election is fair: not only would he win a ballot of members and supporters, he would also win any popular primary.
    Those who know the Labour Party know that for years the right wing, which gave birth to NewLabour, has been based in the many rotten borough CLPs, whereas the left is based in CLPs with large memberships, regular meetings and programmes of activities including political education.
    It is these active CLPs which win elections by door to door volunteer campaigning, while the NewLabour parties rely on massive support from the corporate enemies of the working class in the media and through advertising.
    Finally let us skewer the nonsense that Corbyn is anything more than a moderate socialist in the social democratic tradition: there is nothing in his platform which has not been mainstream Labour policy throughout the Party’s history. It is surprising that anyone would call him “far left”; would that he were but the reality is that he is a moderate in the Bevan-Foot mould, an honest liberal minded man with a commitment to the sort of programme that Adam Smith would endorse: public ownership of natural monopolies and proper regulation of banks and finance.

    • Resident Dissident

      Complete nonsense I’m afraid – what can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    • deepgreenpuddock

      I think you are certainly right about J.Corbyn, He is a classic Labour activist -decent and reasonable and someone who acts and votes according to conscience. So a moderate in the minds of people like me, getting on a bit, with memories of the kinds of Labour activism you describe in working class communities. Political and other education,through CLP and WEA and accepting of a mixed economy.

      The problem I see is that, unfortunately that is not the way the political world works. It is not a place where decency and straight talking prevails. Everything is coded and abstract and devious. It is all about careful selection of logical weaknesses in the government’s position, or pinpointing the absurd outcomes sometimes unforeseen, of policies. This process goes on at numerous levels in politics. It requires coordination between these levels-for instance a policy weakness that is identified has to be revealed both by public rhetoric, and parliamentary procedural processes ad no doubt clever manipulation of the press and It is then a case of a campaign of attrition-wearing down the government over a million tiny erosions of their credibility. It is akin to a very complex abstract game-with a premium on the capacity to analyse detail. By detail i mean the forensic reading of white papers, and policy proposals and the the anticipation of false moves by the government, and diversions and the elephant traps laid by the press in cahoots with well placed and fiendishly amoral and ruthless characters within the political system.
      There s a strong suspicion that Leadsom was drawn into an elephant trap over her motherhood comment. It seems like dirty tricks at one level, but it is also the nature of the ‘game’ these people play. Modern politics is a breathtakingly corrosive process.
      I suppose my point is that while we have a block of entrenched power in the form of the Tory party, unless there is an opposition which is astute enough to counter their moves they have free rein to inflict any discomfort upon the population.
      A case in point. Polly Toynbee highlights the case of Labour missing (i.e. not noticing the existence of) the chance in employment law, where Tribunals will cost £1200. That was not a strategic omission but a ‘goalkeeper asleep, leaning against the post/distracted by the seagulls flying overhead ‘ moment.

      I suppose my native political sympathies are with a left of centre Corbyn-like perspective. I too regard Trident as a waste of money, where any analysis of its military purpose condemns it as almost certainly militarily useless, but it forms part of a dynamic (and potentially unstable) system – military and economic of balanced tension, which despite its absurdity, may be unwise or impossible, to dismiss or remove.
      The problem is that if the JC points out the undoubted absurdity -without providing an insight into the hugely complex process of removing that undoubted absurdity, whilst maintaining the stability of the system-then he will be subject to criticism.
      the point is that trident and it successor is to all intents and purposes a fixity in the political landscape,and to choose it as a political issue may be akin to kicking the goalposts because they had the bloody temerity to not stop the ball going past it or because it had a kink in it that let the ball squeak past.
      It is one thing to point out absurdities in policy – but it is also absolutely essential to be realistic. That fucking stupid badly shaped and bent goalpost isn’t actually going anywhere. and the spectacle of kicking it is just undermining the team morale.
      Anyway -the Labour party is in a sense in a similar place to the Tories- in the tension between the ‘right’ Tory thing-i.e. Leadsom -right wing brexiteer -with ideas about motherhood that chime with a lot of people like her-supporting the party and maintaining its ‘soul’, but at the same time, these ideas can never be retrieved in a world that is driven by ideas and cultural and economic forces very detached from those of the pure Tory comfort zone . That ship has sailed two years ago.
      In the same way-that labour comfort zone of working class activists fighting the good fight by their collective action is similar to Leadsom’s pre-war vision of a bucolic Englishness- ‘all things bright and beautiful’ world.
      I think it is absolutely essential for the Labour party to retrieve some credibility in the world which it is part of.
      The PLP is saying quite emphatically that the leadership are not good at doing all that daily political strategising and slow erosion of political credibility that is required to oppose the Tories. Could it be time to consider some novel organisational change to acknowledge the divided nature of politics and the impossibility of accommodating the opposed perceptions. The fact of the matter is that political activity has changed in the economic firmament have essentially failed. The collectivism of the left has turned out t be unworkable and the rapaciousness of American cult capitalism has failed to sustain social cohesion and the environment-essentiually neoliberalism has placed primacy in grossly monetised technicalities and tweaks to the process of profit oriented living – and has in its latest manifestation triggered huge cascades of destruction upon the innocents who were holding on to the own sense of what is right. The Afghan war was actually about clearing out the ‘medievalist’ theocratic and tribal/familial centres of power – which were culturally opposed, and hindering to the American/western vision of dispersed, fragmented, individualised power and pragmatic moral relativism, and the definition of family as atomised and ‘nuclear’ and the individualised expansion(growth) of consumption . ie the elimination of all remnants of familial or kinship based power centres because it is an impediment to the spread of ‘enlightened’ materialism.

      The challenge of the labour party is now to find common cause with environmentalists and the process of arguing over and revealing the rapacious and destructive quality of neoliberalism, in a way which is not threatening to peoples’ perceptions of ‘reality’ i.e their livelihoods.
      We need a very thorough re-invention of the idea of the limits and benefits of collectivism and a realistic conception of how that can be organised and managed. That is big philosophical work,

      It is interesting that May has already parked her ‘policy tanks’ outside Downing street-a more caring capitalism-a curbed financial industry etc etc These were all the Left’s territory.
      time to reclaim that property and reveal the dishonesty of that Tory rhetoric.

      • nevermind

        Thoroughly agree with your tome, DGP, a progressive Alliance with Greens, Plaid and even the Lib Dems could be the way forward, if, and its a big IF, the three can come up with a ten point plan to present to the electorate.
        Policies that could find support, with all demographies, are

        Austerity reduction and the fiscal means to do so, directly fighting discord and violence with jobs and opportunities, for that infrastructure and environmental programmes are perfect, because they come up with positive effects such as producing energy and less dependencies on nuclear power. This should also tackle the long term need for a sustainable finance system that operates on real values. For many sustainability starts with financial realities, not fictional values such as long/short term futures, packaged derivative trading etc.

        proportional representation after this democratic deficit should sound like heaven to many, a ‘fair voting system for all’, for the first time should speak to all those who have voted for nobody in their life’s and who want factional, but well supported agendas find their rightful place in society and Parliament.

        Equal pay for women, making all offshore havens under British jurisdiction pay taxes on international transactions, at the same time start lifting the nebulous way billions/day are transferred for arms deals by agreeing that only major clearing banks handle these transfers and all others will be outlawed. bartering for arms should not be allowed, whether its gold or lemons.

        a new law that forbids all interference in schooling by politicians or other officials at all times, bar those ‘locally’ entrusted with the welfare and curriculum of our children. Education is not a football for politicians to kick, if and when they feel the need for publicity or aggrandisement. This would bring stability and continuity to schooling, decisions would be made locally by heads teachers governors/parents and expert who are drafted in to modernise and update the curriculum, if and when needed. Our children, teachers and students, the whole education system has been continually disturbed and interfered with for decades, it is surprising that anybody got educated. let us adopt the most successful system there is, from Finland, its not rocket science.

        Generals will always vote for more arms and thrive on tension and actions, their in-build purpose, but they should be controlled by Parliament and not by the MOD or military industrial players who vie for their very own opportunities, an end to publicly underwritten arms deals, more control over arms deals and re-designation of arms manufacturers into other fields of manufacturing. If farmers can diversify, so can arms manufacturers.

        those parties genuinely interested in a progressive alliance, investing in infrastructure projects such as alternative energies and reduction in foreign expertise/interests and energy dependencies, a fair proportional electoral system and more should get together now and draw up a common manifesto for a sustainable society.

        just a few to get on with,imho.

      • giyane

        [ Mod: Caught in spam-filter ]

        DPG
        “The Afghan war was actually about clearing out the ‘medievalist’ theocratic and tribal/familial centres of power ”

        Political Islam in all its shapes and sizes wants to be on the side of the Divider-Rulers, as opposed to be stuck on the side of the divided-ruled.

        If ever any one small group of reformers purified their motive for Allah, instead of rushing toward appeasing and bum-wiping Zionist power, islam would be a Tsunami. meanwhile the Zs know how to play mommies and daddies in Tel Aviv. Habba nostra is claiming to be there!

      • philw

        Deepgreenpuddock -“A case in point. Polly Toynbee highlights the case of Labour missing (i.e. not noticing the existence of) the chance in employment law, where Tribunals will cost £1200. That was not a strategic omission but a ‘goalkeeper asleep, leaning against the post/distracted by the seagulls flying overhead ‘ moment.”

        Please. Taking Toynbee as an authoritative source is like using David Icke.
        This particular Toynbeeism is demolished here:

        http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/12/veteran-guardian-columnist-just-smeared-every-last-corbyn-supporter-staggering-attack/

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      “Obviously, any honest MP will return to his constituency and seek instructions from the party members there.”
      ________________________

      That seems deeply dishonest to me.

      Labour party members in the constituencies already have a role and voice in the selection of the leader.

      Why should they have two bites at the cherry by seeking to make the MP vote for any particular candidate?

  • giyane

    ” public oweship of fat monopolies and proper de-regulation of banks and finance.”

    Unfortunately the designation of far leftness of Jeremy Corbyn has nothing to do with economic policies.
    It has everything to do with not being willing to fight wars with UK cash for Israel. As we speak , May is practising the levers of war against the Syrian people like a 3 year old let loose on a new JCB.

    The vote by 172 Tory Friends of Israel will be taken as a mandrake for placing Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaida in power against the wishes of the Syrians and complying with the fascist wishes of apartheid Israel.

      • michael norton

        The M.P. for Shipley said: “Doesn’t what we have heard today show what Liam Fox said is true, that these devices are not here to try and help the Government implement the will of the public.

        “What the Labour party are asking for is the right to try and stop the will of the public being implemented.

        “If the Government doesn’t implement this because Labour frustrates the process Labour will be wiped out in the north of England at a future general election.”

        We need to save the Labour party from their self destruction for the benefit of our country.

      • giyane

        Darlings, I don’t personally have the political ( i.e. lying ) skillset to say one thing and mean the other.
        But I’m long enough in the tooth to recognise it being performed by one of our professional liars ( politicians ) when it’s being done.

        Craig has already outlined the programme of establishment Tory dealing with BREXIT: Unite the Tories, Elect a safe pair (balls/boobs/hands/tongues), Say one thing, Do another thing.

  • YouKnowMyName

    Rendition news from Deutsche Welle, (I’d better mention this whilst the UK still remembers where europe is , I’m noticing actual, tangible and serious brexshit effects already)

    http://www.dw.com/en/cia-documents-reveal-details-about-wrongfully-renditioned-german/a-19386515

    “German Collusion”
    . . . [this] case and the official silence that continues to surround it, underlies the cooperation of European governments with the CIA on its rendition program.

    More evidence of the vast supra-national intelligence club of tiered members that replaced the 5-eyes echelon

    • giyane

      In other words they knew some kind of false flaggy operation was underway and they didn’t know who were patsies and who was their team.

  • Doug Scorgie

    Resident Dissident July 12, 2016 at 07:01

    “Complete nonsense I’m afraid – what can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”
    ……………………………………………………..

    So, lost for words again ResDis?

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      Surprised that your personal rejoinder was left standing when my question about whether you couldn’t do better was deleted, Doug.

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      That is an excellent point you make there, Doug, and I fully support it!

      (Mod(s) – happy now? )

  • Ba'al's Bargepole

    Rather surprisingly, the Guardian came up with this as a basis for holding Blair and Bush to account. Surprisingly, because the Graun has been an uncritical channel for frequent mass blairings….before Chilcot. Oil. And follow the money. At last, someone’s got it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/11/tony-blair-prosecution-war-crimes-hague-geneva-pillage-economy-iraq-chilcot

    Under the Hague and Geneva rules, occupying powers are prohibited from fundamentally transforming the economy and political system of a country. Yet this is exactly what happened: the coalition provisional authority (CPA), through which the UK and US governed, forced through a series of major structural economic reforms, including the removal of product subsidies and protective trade barriers and other tariffs, a flattened tax system in which the richest and the poorest paid the same rate, and economic policies that threw Iraqi industry wide open to foreign investors. It also reformed the political system root and branch, creating a government structure based on sectarian identity, which arguably played a key role in stimulating the violence that continues to this day.

    One Foreign and Commonwealth Office lawyer advised Blair in February 2004 that because “the extensive body of CPA legislation dealing with economic reform and governance was of questionable lawfulness … the risk of claims against the UK could not be ruled out”.

    Even more surprisingly, the Grauniad piece cites an Open Democracy article, zeroing in on what Chilcot coyly avoided prioritising:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/david-whyte/chilcot-s-oil-blind-spot-in-iraq-war-report

    In turn, it cites this, which serves as the entrance to the labyrinth:

    http://www.fuelonthefire.org/documents#1458

    Follow the money. Clue: JP Morgan.

    • deepgreenpuddock

      great stuff re blair. I commented on that guardian thread.
      Basically it was very obvious that Bush and his chums were after the only sizeable oil reserve left in the world that was not already sequestered, used up, colonised, or irrevocably held by others-such as in Russia or Iran or too big a nut to crack(Iran). I have had connections to the oil industry for decades and it was very obvious many years ago that Libya was in the sights of the oil industry lobby. The american oil industry simply believed that the Libyan oil was ‘their property’ -there was not even the slightest notion that there might be a ‘native interest’ in the oilfields. There have been lobby groups for decades all through the Gaddaffi years overtly trying to get backing for a military intervention.
      At the time of Iraq-prior to the invasion, eye watering sums of money were being offered to engineers to go into Iraq after the ‘liberation’. There is no question that it was pillage and was prepared for in advance. The military orientation of the invasion was to the oilfields, as well as the centres of power such as Bagdad .The campaigns were certainly simultaneous, if not pre-dating the official moment of ‘shock and awe’ and the objective was to capture the oilfields intact before they could be sabotaged. Why was the British centre of operations Basra?
      Because it is the centre for the southern Iraq oilfields and the traditional ‘property’ of the British.

      • Ba'al's Bargepole

        Even Blair admitted at one point – can’t find it immediately – that it was about the oil. If the media had devoted the same time and effort it has to party squabbles, the issue would be front and centre.

      • giyane

        DPG

        This blog has always been divided – and ruled over – between economic motive-ers and hatred of Islam motive-ers. Chilcot, Brit, master of divide and rule, allows you to be divided and ruled.
        General Betrayus cruises safe and secure to high office and Bilderberg, having re-ignited the Shi’a sunni conflict with false-flag bombings.

        If we dispute about motivation mineral resources, or clash of civilisations, the evil elites are playing with our minds. It’s about shitting on the Muslims while simultaneously removing their economic power.

        Colonial oppression – raw and uncontrolled.

      • Loony

        It is not just about oil. It is about cheap to access oil.

        There is plenty of oil in places like Canada and Venezuela – but it is expensive. Iraq and Libya have cheap oil – although that too has become expensive due to costs associated with killing and displacing the former owners of this oil.

        The fact that these costs appear on a separate ledger is of interest only to accountants.

        As cheap oil goes, so goes civilization. Just plot population growth against oil consumption.Marvel at the correlation, but do not dwell on the implications. Much better to shoot the messenger or to start fervently researching abiotic oil.

        • Silvio

          As cheap oil goes, so goes civilization. Just plot population growth against oil consumption.Marvel at the correlation, but do not dwell on the implications. Much better to shoot the messenger or to start fervently researching abiotic oil.

          Gail Tverberg agrees with you. “Cheap oil” in this context does not refer to the retail price of oil, but to the cost of extracting the oil and refining it into end products. This is steadily climbing as the best and cheapest sources of oil are used up, and the more difficult to produce (hence costlier) sources of crude fill an increasingly large part of the overall oil supply. The low hanging fruit has been picked, so to speak, and as time marches on we have to dedicate more energy and money to produce oil from less and less desirable sources – AKA diminishing returns.

          Oil Supply Limits and the Continuing Financial Crisis
          By Gail Tverberg

          Published in Energy Volume 37, Issue 1, January 2012, Pages 27-34. Official version available at Science Direct.

          Abstract
          Since 2005, (1) world oil supply has not increased, and (2) the world has undergone its most severe economic crisis since the Depression. In this paper, logical arguments and direct evidence are presented suggesting that a reduction in oil supply can be expected to reduce the ability of economies to use debt for leverage. The expected impact of reduced oil supply combined with this reduced leverage is similar to the actual impact of the 2008–2009 recession in OECD countries. If world oil supply should continue to remain generally flat, there appears to be a significant possibility that oil consumption in OECD countries will continue to decline, as emerging markets consume a greater share of the total oil that is available. If this should happen, based on these findings we can expect a continuing financial crisis similar to the 2008–2009 recession including significant debt defaults. The financial crisis may eventually worsen, to resemble a collapse situation as described by Joseph Tainter in The Collapse of Complex Societies (1990) or an adverse decline situation similar to adverse scenarios foreseen by Donella Meadows in Limits to Growth (1972).

          https://ourfiniteworld.com/oil-supply-limits-and-the-continuing-financial-crisis/

          Here is her most recent blog post:
          Energy limits: Why we see rising wealth disparity and low prices

          Extract:
          We can think of the situation as follows: An economy that keeps growing is (in energy terms) an out-of-balance system. Rising debt levels help maintain this out-of-balance condition by providing ever-higher commodity prices. These higher prices encourage greater extraction of energy products, even when the cost of extraction is rising because of diminishing returns. Even if extraction costs keep rising, the situation of ever-rising commodity prices cannot go on endlessly. At some point, prices become too high for workers to afford. Demand tends to fall at some point because workers at the bottom of the hierarchy find themselves “priced out” of buying goods such as houses and cars that would help maintain commodity demand.

          What causes debt levels to stop rising? One reason why debt levels stop rising is that debt reaches absurd levels, making it difficult to repay debt with interest.

          https://ourfiniteworld.com/2016/07/06/energy-limits-why-we-see-rising-wealth-disparity-and-low-prices/

  • giyane

    Ba’al

    Winston Churchill secured Mosul at Sykes Picot. Daesh now live there. US politicians queue up to decry the colonial border. But while Winston was divesting Islam of its Caliphate with the support of most of the Muslim countries who underestimated British duplicity, he was seizing the shitty strip of land which could take control of Mosul, 100 years later, like taking a cub from the teeth of a lion, with confederation of pirates called Daesh.

    Obviously Blair and Blair are just drunken arseholes recruited for their complete dumbness and temptability, incapable of distinguishing their orifices from eachother. Oil was never the main reason for Winston.
    His principle motive was Zionism, the continuation of the corrupted Judae-Christian religion that permitted him to bugger little boys on his travels, as opposed to Islam, which exposed his public school predilections as crimes.

    Plus sha change, plus sh’est la fucking meme chose.

    • Ba'al's Bargepole

      .I suspect you have not yet realised the true complexity of what you are railing against.

      http://www.thetower.org/article/the-map-that-ruined-the-middle-east/

      The Ottoman Caliphate (argued by some to be illegitimate) was on its way out in any case, and its jurisdiction was never more than nominal in most of the Middle East. If you think there is unity among Muslims, or ever was after Kerbala, you need a good long drink of reality.

      • giyane

        I suspect I have:
        ..”Winston was divesting Islam of its Caliphate with the support of most of the Muslim countries “..

        • Ba'al's Bargepole

          What a convincing riposte! Simply repeating what you said before absolutely disposes of a century or two of history.

          I’ll change the subject (and encourage you to read something other than the Protocols of the Elders of Zion). Which branch of Islam do you favour? Because it looks as if your ill-informed resentment of everything Western makes you a prime target for radicalisation, while you simultaneously snarl about the radicalisers. Have you considered a career in Daesh? And was the job application rejected? I cannot find a clear direction in anything you have said here.

    • giyane

      Nevermind

      Craig has already pointed out the connection between Mrs May and Middle Eastern bolloxtix aka Abu Qatada, our man in Amman. While not ruling out the capacity of any modern politician for greasing his dirty paws with contraband, the project underway, for which Mrs May has been selected is the use of UK state resources for Israel’s benefit. George Osborne is not going to be allowed to risk his fiscal sums be jiggered by another Middle Eastern war.

      The ghoul, Hammond will be summoned from the FCO to run the finances for a Syrian war, and Osborne be retired to Mrs May’s last job or something similar. Minister for fishnet tights in East Anglia?

    • fedup

      Old timer, you seem to be historically at a disadvantage here. Hong Kong and Shanghai bank originally was set up to process the proceeds of opium sales, and as such it’s only fitting for the traditions to continue albeit this time around not so much helping the privateers busy peddling their narcotics not so far eastwards.

      The last time around Her Madj gubiment went to war over the obstreperous foreigners who were trying to stop the sales of opium. US ought to count itself lucky that war was not declared over its’ meddlesome attitudes in trying to poke their nose into the banking affairs of the this lot of privateers.

  • Loony

    Do y’ll know that drugs are dangerous.

    The US spends some $55 billion per year in its “War on Drugs” In 2014 over 1.5 million arrests were made in the US for drugs laws violations, some 83% of these arrests were for possession. Since 2006 it is estimated that more than 100,000 people have been killed in Mexico as a consequence of drug cartel inspired violence.

    The UK also has laws concerning drugs, and people who attempt to to import and supply drugs are routinely handed prison sentences. Here is a random example of an 11 month police investigation that resulted in the courts handing down aggregate jail sentences of some 90 years.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-12m-drug-gang-caught-8111718

    Of course there are ways to enter the illegal drugs business which are entirely free of legal risk. If you are interested in entering the drugs business but don’t fancy getting killed or being incarcerated why not book an appointment for some business advice with you local HSBC – It doesn’t matter where you live, they are a global bank.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36768140

  • YouKnowMyName

    Whilst waiting for the ides of Corbyn, we could do worse than read an example of another 5-eyes country’s media coverage of C H I L C O T. . .

    Last week, after years of snail-paced study, a card-carrying member of the British establishment finally made public an encyclopedia-sized autopsy of how the British political, military, diplomatic and intelligence establishment essentially concocted a case to launch an illegal war in Iraq.

    As Sir John Chilcot makes plain, central to making that now discredited case, were the largely anonymous inhabitants of the British “intelligence community.” What Chilcot makes also plain is just how breathtakingly inept that so-called “community” was in assisting the now equally discredited Prime Minister Tony Blair in fashioning his case for war since we now know, beyond any doubt, that all of it was founded on comical dribs and drabs of worthless intelligence.

    Of course, there is nothing even remotely funny about the human consequences of a case for war built on sand castlelike “intelligence.” The scale and nature of the suffering Iraqis have had to endure, and continue to endure, is almost incomprehensible. But the architects of this calamitous war, including British spies, remain rather comfortably around, still immune from any meaningful accountability for their shockingly disastrous performance.

    DEBACLE – actually, that’s a bit stronger than the way that the Beeb put it! What a surprise. . .

    https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/07/11/we-must-learn-from-british-debacle-on-spy-oversight.html (Toronto Star)

    • michael norton

      Six Tupolev Tu-22M3 strategic bombers have delivered massive airstrikes against a major Islamic State camp and ammunition depots in Syria, Russia’s Defense Ministry says. The aircraft flew from Russia and returned home after the operation.
      https://www.rt.com/news/350784-russian-bombers-syria-isis/

      It is all ramping up in the Eastern med.

      Is it a contest between Russia and America,
      that is my guess.

      • michael norton

        http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Backfire.html

        The Tupolev Tu-22M3 Backfire C is in a class of its own. In conceptual terms, it could best be considered a larger supersonic equivalent to the RAF’s 1960s V-bombers, armed with a more evolved equivalent to the RAF’s Avro Blue Steel Mk.1 supersonic standoff missile. The Backfire remained in production until 1993, and given low flying hours, the extant Russian fleet is largely younger in airframe hours than the US B-1B Lancer fleet.

        • michael norton

          What a beast

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22M#Specifications_.28Tu-22M3.29

          Crew: 4 (pilot, co-pilot, navigator, weapon systems operator)
          Length: 42.4 m (139 ft 4 in)
          Wingspan:
          Spread (20° sweep): 34.28 m (112 ft 6 in)
          Swept (65° sweep): 23.30 m (76 ft 6 in)
          Height: 11.05 m (36 ft 3 in)
          Wing area:
          Spread: 183.6 m² (1,976 ft²)
          Swept: 175.8 m² (1,892 ft²)
          Empty weight: 58,000 kg (128,000 lb)
          Loaded weight: 112,000 kg (246,000 lb)
          Max. takeoff weight: 124,000 kg (273,000 lb) ; 126,400 kg (278,700 lb) for rocket assisted TO
          Powerplant: 2 × Kuznetsov NK-25 turbofans, 247.9 kN (55,100 lbf) each
          Fuel capacity: 54,000 kg (118,800 lb) internally

          Performance

          Maximum speed: Mach 1.88 (2,303.08 km/h; 1,243.565 kn; 1,431.07 mph) (2,000 kilometres per hour (Mach 1.6; 1,100 kn; 1,200 mph)) ; at altitude
          Range: 6,800 km (4,200 mi, 3,700 nmi)
          Combat radius: 2,410 km (1,500 mi, 1,300 nmi) with typical weapons load
          Service ceiling: 13,300 m (43,600 ft)

          • michael norton

            If the pesky Russkies keep doing daring shit like this, the yanks will have to deploy AWACs

            to keep an eye on
            oh, they’re going to be doing that soon, with a new super AWAC base, based in non-NATO Tunisia
            It is becoming crowded and very ramped up in the Eastern Mediterranean Arena.

          • michael norton

            Six Tupolev Tu-22M3 strategic bombers have delivered massive airstrikes against a major Islamic State camp and ammunition depots in Syria, Russia’s Defense Ministry says. The aircraft flew from Russia and returned home after the operation. The bombers, based at one of Russian’s southern air bases, took off on Tuesday morning, passed through Iranian and Iraqi airspace and delivered concentrated high-explosive ammunition airstrikes on terrorist targets east of the towns of Palmyra and As Sukhnah, and the village of Arak.
            All aircraft have successfully returned to home base, the ministry said in a statement. A large militants’ field camp,
            3 ammo depots, 3 tanks, 4 IFVs, 8 automobile vehicles and a great number of personnel were eliminated.

            I guess this is partly in retaliation for ISIS downing a Syrian helicopter near Palmyra and the death of the two Russian pilots?

            The Russian military stated that the information on the eliminated targets was acquired over the last several days and confirmed through several intelligence channels.

            The US-led international antiterrorist coalition was notified of the airstrikes in advance, the ministry says.

            “The strike resulted in the destruction of a large militant field camp, three depots of arms and munitions, three tanks, four infantry combat vehicles and eight vehicles fitted with heavy machine guns, also neutralizing a large number of enemy fighters,” the statement says.

        • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

          If that is the case then efforts by the West to upgrade Western military capabilities would seem entirely logical and sensible, wouldn’t they?

          Unless; of course, one believes that Russian military capabilities are intrinsically peaceful whereas Western military capabilities are intrinsically aggressive.

          • Republicofscotland

            Habb.

            You should tell that to Fedup, who appears to think that China’s is a better devil to know than the US.

          • Ba'al's Bargepole

            If one does not believe this, it is certainly not for the lack of Russia’s outlets trying. There’s something of a media war developing here. Though it is strange that Michael relies so heavily on the Daily Express (he’s even picked up on its use of CAPITAL LETTERS in straps – another horrible feature of modern journalism: began in African papers) when looking for something to throw at the Establishment.

          • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

            There seems – at least to me – something deeply disturbing about Norton’s post starting” What a beast”.

            A kind of delighted prostration at the altar of Russian miilitary capability. Orwell would probably have characterised it as a fascist worship of naked power.

            But, to be fair to him, Norton does protest against US military power so he can’t be all bad, can he 🙂

          • Loony

            May I make so bold as to suggest that you undertake some study as to the meaning of the verb to conflate.

            Once you have an understanding of this term it may become evident to you that any belief as to the respective military intentions of either Russia or the west is of far lass import than facts. Hence it is important not to conflate beliefs with facts.

            Relevant facts would include an analysis of the number and location of overseas military bases operated by the US and Russia respectively, together with an analysis of the number of countries subject to recent invasion by Russia and the US respectively.

            Once you have completed the suggested analysis you may find it helpful to substitute facts for beliefs.

  • John Goss

    Left to most decent people there would never have been a Chilcot Inquiry because there would not have been an Iraq War. Decent people do not murder innocent people, especially children. This poem I wrote when the battered body of little Ali Ismail Abbas, one of the early victims of Blair’s death-for-oil campaign, was shown in our newspapers. I published it on 19 April 2003.

    Tony’s child

    Tony’s child is 12 years old, like any child that’s bad
    he used to do mischievous things, he’d taunt his mum and dad.
    He does not do that any more, and even if he did
    he could not hurt his parents for they’re already dead.
    Tony’s child is not quite dead instead he lies all day in bed.

    He lies all day in bed and cries, he knows how bad
    he was. He just wants to apologise, say sorry mum and dad.
    But it’s too late he had his chance before the two were gone
    and now they’re gone, he lingers on,
    he lies all day in bed and cries, and cries, and still cries on.

    Tony’s child liked volleyball, but now he has no arms,
    he cannot show the skill he learnt, all those magic charms.
    No arms to touch, to love, to feel, he has no arms to kill.
    It might be better if he died and who knows perhaps he will;
    He lies all day in bed and cries for Tony’s child is very ill.

    The bomb that killed his family and took his arms away,
    scorched his growing torso and God I only pray
    this kind of thing will soon become a feature of the past
    when men were seen as savages who used to maim and blast
    little children with their bombs, and Tony’s child’s the last.

    ================================================

    The sentiment was optimistic since western governments are power-mad for stealing oil and changing regimes, despite thousands of children just like Ali Abbas being killed and wounded because of their greed.

    Tony’s child was brought to England. He survived. “I’m not sure that it is bitterness or even hatred I feel. I feel terribly sad that life as I knew it was taken from me that night.

    ‘My mother was putting me to bed. My father was killed too. My arms were placed in their grave.”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3676671/The-British-people-told-lies-country-destroyed-Orphan-symbol-invasion-losing-arms-legs-demands-answers-Tony-Blair.html

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      I liked that poem, Mr Goss. Have you written others in the same vein, possibly? Eg about children maimed by an IRA bomb or a child in Chechnya whose life was ruined by Mr Yeltsin’s or Mr Putin’s armies? Pity for the human condition should be universal, don’t you agree?

      • John Goss

        Glad you liked it. I should be very pleased to read your poems on the Chechnyan child murdered by Putin and your one on children maimed by the IRA. I think the last verse of Tony’s Child demonstrates my hope for the universality of peace. 🙂

    • michael norton

      Eddie The Eagle Warns Of Perpetual Tory State If Corbyn Remains

      “I don’t go in for suicide missions”, the former shadow business secretary says as she challenges for the NULABOUR leadership.
      http://news.sky.com/story/eagle-warns-of-tory-state-if-corbyn-remains-10498619
      Ms Eagle said she had no choice but to stand against Mr Corbyn because Britain was in danger of becoming a “one-party Tory state” under his leadership.

      “This is certainly about uniting NULABOUR but it’s about much more than that,” she continued.

      “It’s about our DEMOCRACY as well as our party.
      It’s about giving hope to people all over the country that Labour can be an alternative government, ready and equipped to serve.

      That’s a bit rich from Angela, going on about DEMOCRACY, does she know how stupid she looks?

  • Republicofscotland

    The Hague, rules in favour of the Philippines, over sea disputes with China. However China has blatently ignored the ruling. Where now? Do we impose sanctions on Chinese goods to the West?

    Do we sabre rattle in our media? Or do we up our military prescence in the region?

    I’m no fan of the great satan the US government (not the American people) however I feel that the old adage of “Better the devil you know” applies here.

    “Beijing has ignored the ruling, saying its islands come with exclusive economic zones, where Chinese people have had activities for 2,000 years.”

    “The court said in the 497-page ruling that “There was no legal basis for China to claim historic rights to resources within the sea areas falling within the ‘nine-dash line’,” referring to a demarcation line on a map of the sea from 1947.”

    https://www.rt.com/news/350756-south-china-sea-hague/

    • Republicofscotland

      Apologies if someone has posted this already, though I haven’t read a comment on it.

      Angela Eagle’s constituency office has had a brick thrown through the window. Eagle has also had to cancel a promotional trip to Luton after she and her staff received threats.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/angela-eagles-office-window-smashed-by-brick-after-mp-launches-labour-leadership-bid_uk_5784bb1ae4b0c7053213605b

      The pro-Blairite agent provocateurs have been busy, trying to smear Corbyn, it brings it all back to me and the dirty tricks campaign against Alex Salmond.

      • John Spencer-Davis

        Angela Eagle and friends have been burbling about how Corbyn needs to control his thugs.

        How do we know it was a Corbyn supporter who bricked her window? It’s as least as likely that it was a pro-Eagle provocateur seeking to discredit Corbyn.

        He has repeatedly called on all sides for peace and calm. What’s he supposed to do – cart violent nutters and cyberspace threateners off to the police station himself? It’s ridiculous.

        • glenn_uk

          It is absolutely absurd. “They’re doing it in his name… it’s bullying… has to be stopped” Eagle bleated. As if Corbyn had given some hoodlum a ride over there, and put the brick in his hand.

          She voted for war to destroy a country, which ended up destabilising half the world – and did it in all our names. Haven’t heard her take much responsibility for that!

    • fedup

      Already there is the talk of the need for military confrontation in the Chinese power circles.

      The devil you know is pretty much on it’s last legs. So best get ready the devil is dead, long live the devil that is up and coming.

      • Republicofscotland

        “Already there is the talk of the need for military confrontation in the Chinese power circles”

        _____________

        How so Fedup, are you suggesting that China is on the verge of military engagement with another nation?

        Re your second point are you saying you’d prefer China’s military might? And all, the subterfuge that goes along with it over that of the USA.

        Is it that you China see China as a less aggressive nation, than say the US or UK?

        Is Chinese democracy if such a thing exists, superior to that of Western democracy?

        • fedup

          Myopia is a burdensome affair.

          Clearly you have not been doing any reading outside the usual echo chamber sources.

          Chinese military are no longer content to be sitting back and letting US dictate to them in their own back yard. Hence the various papers forwarded with the singular aim of asserting her will through the only method the yanks can understand; the stick, and the bullets.

          Let’s spare the readers from the sophomorical notions of democracy!!! As and when you found yourself living in a democracy perhaps you can then pick up the “habit” of identifying the other nations through that simplistic lens.

          • Republicofscotland

            Fedup.

            You haven’t a leg to stand on the very fact that you can openly comment and deride any government in the world on this blog, and not be carted away is testament to the UK’s democracy, much the same applies to the US.

            I’d like to see you openly deride the the Chinese government in China if you were Chinese. You’d be led away by the IDCPC or the UFWD.

            China does not publicise who it tortures, incarcerates for long periods or who it executes, those figures generally remain state secrets.

          • fedup

            Give me a break!!!!!!
            That old chestnut. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel, aren’t you? The only defence mechanism left is to kick in the “democracy'” lark into high gear because that is the extent of your empathy with the wider world, as you identify the other nations based on the yard stick that you have been fed 24/7/52

            Right to water
            Right to food
            Right to shelter,
            Right to live free from fear of crime, intimidation, and threats to life and limb,
            Right to education,
            Right to work,
            Right to a just and equitable justice system,

            Just a few of the basic human rights.

            All you are concerned with; deride your government and not to be carted off to jail!!! That is because our jails* are full up the small beer of sitting there and letting off steam don’t count, not because you have any rights of any sorts. Go out there and kick a rubbish bin while chanting some slogan and let’s see how quick you are sentenced to eight years in the slammers.

            *(shop lifters don’t go to jail, burglars don’t go to jail, bullies and lunatics committing grievous bodily harm don’t go to jail)

          • Republicofscotland

            Fedup.

            So according to you the fact that you can speak freely or comment freely, is nothing but an old chestnut. I’m sure many a Chinese person would bite the hand off you to be able to do what you take for granted.

            I see nothing in your comments, that would make me change my point of view.

          • fedup

            You have a problem with comprehension too, as your constant monotonic reply proves. All you have managed to bang on about is the “freedom of expression” which we are told is not one of the “freedoms” Johnny foreigner enjoys!!!

            So far as the realities on the ground goes; you have firmly planted your head in the sand and clearly find it to be the best position for thinking and making your mind up.

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      Excellent post, RoS, but I heard somewhere that the map was from 1940 – can you check, please?

      • Republicofscotland

        Not sure about your 1940 claim, though China added a tenth-dash line in 2013 to claim seas to the East of Taiwan.

        Despite having made the vague claim public in 1947, China has not (as of 2016) filed a formal and specifically defined claim to the area within the dashes. Either they don’t feel confident of their claim or, they are waiting for the right time to enforce them.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line

  • Republicofscotland

    So Theresa May is the new incumbent of 10 Downing St. May who’s in the process of bringing us mass surveillance, mass deportations and a new mass of WMD’s, is also reported to want to trigger article 50, by the end of the year, well according to this anyway.

    https://www.rt.com/uk/350692-theresa-may-prime-minister/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

    May who campaigned to remain, but oh so quiety so as not to upset anyone, has said publicly and emphatically “Brexit means Brexit.”

    • michael norton

      Once the decision is made, the Commission will have 20 days to prepare penalties. If the eurozone ministers approve sanctions Spain and Portugal will have 10 days to explain their position and to appeal for clemency.

      How fucking humiliating.

      The sooner the end comes for the E.U.
      the better for all the countries of Europe.

      • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

        Including the penalty clauses, if course.

        If you believe that Euro zone members should be allowed to flout, without penalty, the rules they freely signed up to then I suppose you also believe that the outcome of the Brexit referendum could be flouted?

        • Loony

          I note that in your little world today seems to be the day for “belief” Perhaps you would be better advised to seek a theological debate, as the concept of belief is central to theology.

          Returning to the issue of euro zone sanctions I think you will find that any actions taken by either Spain or Portugal are subject to penalty.

          They can either comply with EU rules which ultimately means their populations will literally wither and die, or they can not comply and be subject to increasingly onerous sanctions enforced by the EU. If accepted these sanctions will mean that their populations will literally wither and die.

          There is ultimately a third choice available. Given the consequences of the first two choices then unless they wish to replicate the Jonestown experience on a giant scale it is to be expected that at some point they will choose the third alternative.

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      Well, all members of the Euro area did sign up to those rules, didn’t they?

      • michael norton

        The Eurozone was a political construct, to permanently bind the countries together, sink or swim together.
        It has crucified the outer countries, Greece, Cyprus, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France and Ireland, it is in effect @A death by a thousand cuts”
        if the United Kingdom ( thank God for Mr.Brown no giving way to the Evil Blair) had joined the hated E.U. in its darstardly scheme of monetary union, we would also be scuppered, we would not be in the fantastic position of sticking two fingers up and announcing
        WE ARE OFF.

    • Republicofscotland

      Corbyn refused to leave NEC room as chair asks him to go, so they can hold secret ballot on his legitimacy to stand, eventually Corbyn did leave, it’s all, getting a bit personal.

      I think the NEC will vote against Corbyn standing.

      • John Spencer-Davis

        If it does, Michael Mansfield will have something to say about it in the High Court. A game is not lost until it is won. I reckon he might be all right yet.

      • John Spencer-Davis

        By the way, Corbyn supporters say it’s a fabrication that he refused to leave the room.

        • Republicofscotland

          John.

          Yes I read that bit, and I believe it could be fabrication, intended as a smear, unsurprisingly ITV news reported it, as a reality.

  • michael norton

    DEFINITION of ‘PIIGS’

    PIIGS is an acronym used to refer to the five Eurozone nations that were considered weaker economically following the financial crisis: Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Since the nations use the euro as their currency, they were unable to employ independent monetary policy to help battle the economic downturn.

    If France is also a “basket case” we will need a different acronym?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36770311

    Italy economy: IMF says country has ‘two lost decades’ of growth
    Italy has an unemployment rate of 11% (same as France)
    and a banking sector in crisis, with government debt second only to that of Greece.

    Italian banks are weighed down by massive bad debts, and may need a significant injection of funds.

    • michael norton

      Quite recently Junker was taken to task because he did not apply the same rules to France.
      When asked “Why not”
      he said because France is France.

    • Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!)

      “…with government debt second only to that of Greece.”
      _________________

      Are you sure of that, Norton?

      Do you happen to have the figures on the basis of which you make that claim?

      • michael norton

        I have already given it to u

        here u r again.

        Italy has an unemployment rate of 11% ( same as France)
        and a banking sector in crisis, WITH A GOVERNMENT DEBT SECOND ONLY TO THAT OF GREECE

        Italian banks are weighed down by massive bad debts, and may need a significant injection of funds.

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36770311

        Can u read?

        • YouKnowMyName

          Italian banks are quite complicated, although of course it is where the term “bank” developed, from (probably) the ‘bancali’ (benches) in the small but interesting ghetto area of Venezia, where the merchants of Venice first traded. One of the current “broke” banks – Banca dei Monte Paschi di Sienna, the oldest in the world, allegedly had perhaps some illegal siphoning of trillions of Lire recently. The banks failed dome resilience tests, and should be sanctioned or their investors auctioned for covering the ‘holes’ BUT most of the bank bond-holders are small comune’s, local micro-regions, pension-funds, in other words the wider Italian state – not exactly flush with cash in the same way that Tony Blair is/was. But I might be wrong?

          • YouKnowMyName

            Oh, forgot to mention that BMPSienna has always been known as “the communist bank” almost irrelevant, but various Italian governments have taken care over the years not to upset such a communist institution , and its supporters

  • michael norton

    European Affairsbrussels bureau
    Eurozone finance ministers mull sanctions for Spain, Portugal

    11/07 17:12 CET

    http://www.euronews.com/2016/07/11/eurozone-finance-ministers-mull-sanctions-for-spain-portugal/

    Eurozone finance minister met on Money to discuss whether Spain and Portugal should face sanctions for breaching EU spending rules.

    Last week, the European Commission said both countries had failed to take sufficient action to close their budget deficits.

    According to the rules, countries should not a budget deficit of more than 3 percent of GDP.

    But those rules have been repeatedly broken; overspenders have never faced any penalties, much to the annoyance of the eurozone’s fiscal hawks.

    Portugal slashed its budget deficit from close to 10 percent of GDP in 2010 to 4.4 percent last year, while Spain last year reported a deficit of 5.1 percent.

    French Finance Minister Michel Sapin told reporters that Portugal “does not deserve excessive discipline”, praising the efforts Lisbon had made in recent years.

    If ministers endorse the idea of sanctions, which could include fines, Spain and Portugal will then have 10 days to make further arguments against any punishment.

    “For both countries it is true that there are budgetary issues and they still need to be resolved. So the question really is: what more can these countries do? How much time is needed to sort out the budgetary problems?,” said Jeroen Dijseelbloem, the Dutch finance minister and current chair of the Eurogroup.

    Note that Frenchman Michel Sapin does not think the Eurozone should come down too heavy on Portugal,
    could that possibly be because France is also in breach of the Eurozone rules?

    • Habbabkuk (Floreat Etona!)

      Norton

      “Note that Frenchman Michel Sapin does not think the Eurozone should come down too heavy on Portugal,
      could that possibly be because France is also in breach of the Eurozone rules?”
      ________________________

      Let me instruct you, Norton. The answer is no.

      When the euro system was being negotiated France argued consistently for a more “political” euro, ie a euro where the Central Bank would be under considerable political control. That was the opposite position to that held by Germany, which argued for a “Bundesbank” model for the ECB, ie, a Central Bank as autonomous and free from political direction as possible (such freedom was of course not total).

      French “leniency” is in line with the position they took at the time and should not therefore come s a surprise to any informed poster. To be noted also that much of that French solidarity is just for show (as it was during the Greek debt negotiations) – it costs France nothing, creates potential future allies on other matters and will not affect the final outcome (it cannot).

  • RobG

    Bernie Sanders has just endorsed herr Clinton; not surprising, since the American people are so propagandised that they’d vote for Jack the Ripper if the presstitutes told them to do so.

    Meanwhile, Corbyn’s fate hangs in the balance. It might be many hours yet before we know how that turns out.

    If Corbyn gets the boot that will be it.

    USUK are completely broke – which is entirely due to neo-con policies – and war with Russia is the only way these feckers can steal the money they need to get out of jail.

    Cue the apologist creatures…

    And meanwhile this board continues to be under heavy DOS attack, in what is the ersatz democracy that is Britain in 2016.

    • Republicofscotland

      Rob-G.

      Nothing that the American public say or do surprises me anymore, they’ve been brainwashed and propagandised to such an extent, that they can be persuaded to believe just about anything.

      This being a prime example.

      “PRINCETON, NJ — Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. The prevalence of this creationist view of the origin of humans is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago.”

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx

        • michael norton

          Owen Smith, MP for Pontypridd and Labour’s former work and pensions spokesman, has said he would consider making a rival leadership challenge.

          Why don’t these freaks give J.C. a couple of years to sort it out.
          Mrs. May has said she will not call an early election, so there is not really any immediate need for the :Labour party to commit mass seppuku

    • Darth

      Not bots this time. The outage was due to a cockup at one of our our service providers. Was resolved swiftly thankfully.

      • michael norton

        Looking further ahead, the IMF warned that the government’s fiscal consolidation efforts would grind to a halt in coming years unless spending growth was kept slower than the rate of inflation, which France has failed to do in recent years.

        Its efforts to improve its fiscal balance had leaned heavily on a recovery in economic growth, inflation and low interest costs, a strategy that has failed to deliver as growth has disappointed and inflation fallen.

        As a result, the IMF forecast that the public deficit would fall to only 3.0 percent of economic output in 2017 from an estimated 3.3 percent this year.

        That would just bring the deficit in line with an EU limit of 3.0 percent, but would fall short of the government’s pledge to cut the deficit to 2.7 percent next year.

        Against that backdrop, the IMF warned that it would not take much of an unexpected economic shock to blow France’s fiscal strategy dangerously off course, pushing public debt to over 100 percent of gross domestic product.
        http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-france-economy-imf-idUKKCN0ZS1J8

        There is a very high rate of unemployment in France, particularly among the youngish, those under 25.
        France is pushing the E.U. envelope with its deficit of 3.3%

        The Idiot Hollande has said he will not stand for reelection of President of France, if unemplyement is not lower at the end of his term, than when he began.
        The official rate is 10 – 11%

        this does not take into account people how can not be bothered to sign on,
        of which there are a lot.
        It also does not take into account those people who are underemployed.

        • glenn_uk

          What the heck has this to do with Darth’s message?

          You do realise that these posts are threaded, right? I mean, you hit ‘REPLY’ on someone’s post, and it gets attached to it.

          Why do you keep throwing such strong non-sequeteurs around here, when you could quite easily start a thread of your own?

          • michael norton

            Darth plonked him /herself in the middle of wot I posted, now get lost

          • John Spencer-Davis

            Darth replied to RobG, and his or her reply was entirely relevant.

            You replied to RobG, and your reply was completely irrelevant.

            Start a thread of your own if you have something new to say.

          • glenn_uk

            I offer you kindly advice, concerning your silly and disruptive posting habits here, and you intemperately respond in a silly way. I did suspect your lack of judgement, poor manners and ill form was responsible, and you have proved it beyond doubt.

          • John Spencer-Davis

            What’s that got to do with the fact that Darth’s reply was relevant and yours was not? Why don’t you address that issue?

          • glenn_uk

            JSD: I think we’re supposed to note that this Norton fellow is real hard like, you know? So don’t mess with him, and ‘cos he can post wherever he likes, and he don’t take no cheek neither, unless you want some bovver or sommat?

          • John Spencer-Davis

            Shrug. It’s not difficult to learn how to start a new thread. If he thinks annoying everybody is the way to get his posts read, I think he’s mistaken.

          • glenn_uk

            I know. But some people can’t be taught anything, particularly if they get belligerent as soon as some long-timer suggests following the proper protocols would be easier on everyone.

          • Ba'al's Bargepole

            Darth’s a mod. And I guess he’s maybe noticed your lousy manners. Could have been intentional.

    • nevermind

      Bernie should have taken the offer by Jill Stein, she said she was prepared to stand aside and let him lead a coalition of Democrats and Greens, which would have been positive and probably would have denied Shillary the presidency.

      I fear foreboding times coming up.

    • John Spencer-Davis

      Bladdy hell, the NEC meeting is reported as possibly going on another 3-4 hours!!

    • RobG

      Wanna bet a fiver on that?

      There are forces at work here behind the scenes, and they are not all evil.

      What mad times we live in!

      • Republicofscotland

        ROB-G

        I salute your optimism, in my opinion if Corbyn, is allowed to stand, and he should be, he’ll wipe the floor with Miss Eagle, or anyone else foolish enough to challenge him for that matter.

        If however Corbyn is judged to need 51 votes, but doesn’t accrue them, then I think there’s a good possibility the Labour party will split, either way the Labour party as it stands looks to be irreparably damaged.

        • glenn_uk

          It is pretty incredible that they couldn’t even give Corbyn a full year as Leader of the Opposition, before deciding he had to go. The “they”, of course, are the very people who have decided Corbyn is no good because _they_ will not respect his leadership. Bootstrapping at its finest.

          The Labour Party membership, the Unions, many (if not most, I haven’t checked) Labour voters generally support Corbyn. These self-appointed guardians of what is right and good for us, they are the only problem. To hell with them and their inflated egos, lack of honour, discipline, judgement, and traitorous nature.

          You can see they’ll be nuzzling up to the Establishment soon, assuring everyone that listens that they’re not interested in upsetting the Powers that Be – Lord no! They’ll be good little corporate centrists – so can’t they be given a chance to govern again? Pretty please?

        • RobG

          Republicofscotland, hopefully at the end of this evening I will take a fiver off you; but who knows how this is going to pan out?

          At this stage I’m not going to dare to predict the outcome.

          But if you force me to predict it: a Corbyn victory.

          If that doesn’t happen, we’ve had it.

  • fedup

    I am of the belief that Eagle camp have followed in the traditions of certain pr gurus advice attempted “self immolation” and the “broken window” that is being blamed on the Corbyn supporters, that in turn gives the transformed harridan* to wax lyrical on the telly about Corbyn needing to “control his supporters”.

    Strange that for an unpopular leader of the labour party there is no effort being spared to disqualify him from running, because he will be winning the leadership again, and who knows god forbid we may even have some semblance of reality back in our public lives, other than the neo-relaities of crazed neocon lunatics whom have so far turned the twenty first century into the darkest and most corrupt era of human history.

    * anyone noticed the thousand pound makeover and hair do of hers?

      • fedup

        It’s a sad indictment of our times that the liars and scoundrels can so easily circumvent the righteous and propel the planet in it’s descent into the abyss of corruption and and injustice. It seems the Satan franchise is pretty much the winner these days.

        The simple fact of a broken window is misrepresented and amplified into “intimidation” by the same bunch who voted for the bombing of Syria and the Iraq war. Apparently the ordnance raining on the nationals of Iraq/Syria are not intimidating those benighted populations whom are simply identified as “Saddam people”/”Assad people”.

        As one of the members of the labour party put it; “this bunch don’t give two hoots about the wider membership”!

        I wish Corbyn success and we the people a chance of being somewhat represented instead of the usual stuffing the parliament with corporate lackeys and the minor royalties whose seats have come to be part of their patrimony as firmly believed in certain “houses”/families.

    • Alan

      ‘anyone noticed the thousand pound makeover and hair do of hers?’

      And I thought she was wearing an Halloween mask.

  • YouKnowMyName

    NEC Dodgy dossier supporters:14 Corbyn: 18, it will not (yet) be a fixed ballot.

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