Thoughts on the Media and the EU Referendum 193


Al Jazeera’s Listening Post programme on the EU referendum media coverage was just broadcast. They only used about 5% of what they recorded of me, split into four soundbites to fit their format.

I think the much more interesting points I made were not used at all. So just for the record, I also made these points:

a) I did not accept the argument that the BBC was biased in the referendum campaign towards Brexit. Indeed especially in the last few days, I thought it was biased towards Remain.
b) However the BBC had been guilty of helping promote Brexit by giving Farage massive and disproportionate publicity for many years, from when UKIP was a negligible electoral force. They were always willing to give right wings views publicity but not left wing views.
c) The right wing print media were indeed a major problem distorting democracy. However the solution to this should be to break up media ownership, not impose government control of content.
d) Project Fear had not succeeded in the Scottish referendum. It had seen a 35 point unionist lead cut to a 10 point lead, making it one of the most disastrous campaigns in history. The question of why Project Fear “succeeded” in Scotland but not the EU referendum was therefore a false one.
e) Media coverage focused on the despised political class rather than the facts.

I do not blame Al Jazeera at all or accuse them of doing anything unethical – they were looking for soundbites for their broadcast. But I do think the above points which they did not broadcast, were a great deal more interesting than their programme!


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193 thoughts on “Thoughts on the Media and the EU Referendum

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  • Jack

    Do you reckon Brexit will actually happen, Craig? There are several prominent commentators, such as David Allen Green, who reckon they won’t trigger Article 50 in the end.

    We have to be a member of either the EU or EEA or else our economy would suffer, and leaving the EU to join EEA would give UK less control, not more (despite the catchy “Vote Leave, Take Control” slogan). Once this reality sinks in, I reckon there’s a chance we actually leave. Furthermore, David Pannick QC has argued that only Parliament can decide to invoke Article 50, and most members are against Brexit.

      • charles drake

        brexit will not happen terry may when he is primeminister will not trigger article 50.
        just because art 50 is not triggered does not mean we do not live in the most perfect and democratic country in the world.
        how can we rely on the haphazard voting patterns of the medicated unemployed of the northern zones this is the rabble that once worked the soil went down mine shaft,worked steel in foundry made wool and cotton sheets for the world.
        built ships and motor part engines these working class scum are the sons and grandsons of worker drones because of the china power house we have to keep them medicated and radio frequency heavy metal retarded.
        they have rocked the boat damn it the ec paid good money to burn the fishing boats so these scum would not attack foreigners who need the uk fish stocks so they can sell it back to us at a good price.
        the ec has helped us build training hubs for workers going into supermarket and shopping centre industries.
        as for the divide and conquer media that is standard mo call it soft gladio.
        mr ms may was always the man for the job we all knew it down the lodge mr soros has made another billion to invest in freedom movements.
        we should be thankful we where allowed to vote and we did hurrah article 50 will vanish in the future fog of coming wars and dangerous threat from foreign haters of are freedoms.
        soon we will have an iron man who will get us a fabulous new deal within europe we do not need to be lonely .
        junkers is are brother why break the bonds britain has always had a make do and mend approach we have strong friends in washington and tel aviv things can only get better.
        as for chillcott we will learn the lessons mr blair has been rightly cleared.
        hurrah alls well with the world

        • Tony_0pmoc

          charles drake,

          I can’t be that thick cos I reckon your “standard mo” stands for “standard modus operandi”, and both my wife and I know what that means cos a posh southern twat friend of ours replied to a text to us whilst we were camping in Devon – using those very words in full – decoded it meant that he too was about to lose his bloody job.

          And what’s this “radio frequency heavy metal retarded” bit. Lemmy was all right – and he was Welsh. He even played in Moscow just before he kicked the bucket whilst the lunatics in Washington and Brussels were trying to nuke the place. They still are..What is the matter with these people?

          “Motorhead – live at Crocus City Hall, Moscow, 25.07.2014”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN6j-wrT9Iw

          Tony

          • charles drake

            heavy metals in the water and the soils baby
            barium mercury lead on your golden grahams
            alloys in your cornflakes
            roundup in your toast
            are you ready cattle
            it will be so
            may man tory fracking
            cowboy is coming
            new thatcher for all

    • Loony

      There are forces at work in the UK to prevent the leave vote from being given effect. The desires of the US is intended to be the determining factor.

      However, there are problems: Most specifically the ruling elites are in danger of losing control. In general they are lazy, greedy, and corrupt – not the best combination for dealing with emergencies or unexpected changes to the status quo.

      Relevant events have yet to unfold.

      If Trump becomes US President then he will likely be more sanguine about the EU and hence US pressure may diminish. Of course he may either not be allowed to become POTUS or not allowed to continue in the role. Either eventuality could trigger a crisis in the US, the outcome of which would be far from certain.

      Events elsewhere in Europe may overtake any elite plotting. Nationalism is on the rise and if one or more other significant EU members break from the EU then it may well prove impossible to glue poor Humpty together again.

      The economy teeters on a precipice of disaster and there are multiple triggers for a full blown crisis. Whilst it is not possible to predict timing a catastrophic outcome is firmly baked into to the cake.

      • Habbabkuk (la vita e' bella!)

        Loony

        “There are forces at work in the UK to prevent the leave vote from being given effect. The desires of the US is intended to be the determining factor.”
        ______________________

        The first sentence is correct and, given the fundamentally flawed and undemocratic nature of the referendum, to be welcomed.

        (BTW I admire your welcome self-restraint – had been expecting you to call them “dark” forces).

        The second sentence, on the other hand, is Garbage by Loony out of Conspiracy.

        • Loony

          It is interesting that you consider that you best serve your masters by feigning stupidity.

          As I suspect you are aware there is voluminous evidence to support the contention that the EU is as much a US project as it is a European project. The role of the UK in the EU has always been to represent US interests. This does always not require any overt conspiracy – alignment of thinking is sufficient in many instances.

          There is no evidence that the UK EU referendum was “fundamentally flawed and undemocratic.” It is merely your subjective opinion and is devoid of supporting evidence.

          There is however plenty of evidence regarding a fundamentally flawed and undemocratic process in Austria. As I mentioned you and your masters are in danger of losing control.

          • Tony_0pmoc

            Loony,

            “feigning stupidity” – possible but somewhat unlikely, as it must be exceedingly difficult to feign it consistently. Much the same applies to liars. It is extremely difficult to maintain a lie, over a long period, because it means you have to have an extremely good memory, about something you have made up. It is very much easier to consistently remember something that is true, because it is hard coded into the brain. So I think he is probably genuine.

            Tony

          • bevin

            There was nothing ‘feigned’ about Habbajobtodo’s attack on RoS yesterday for bringing the Asiento and South America into the South Sea (!) Bubble. That was pure ignorance on display from one of wikipedia’s most fervent disciples.

          • Loony

            No. No contradiction in terms. A little study of both history and comprehension and all will be clear.

        • Alan

          “I had been expecting you to call them “dark” forces”

          You wouldn’t call The Fabian Society “dark” forces then? Actually, at one point, the Queen referred to “Dark forces” so was HM wrong too.

        • Alan

          “I had been expecting you to call them “dark” forces”

          You wouldn’t call The Fabian Society “dark” forces then? Actually, at one point, the Queen referred to “Dark forces” so was HM wrong too.

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-508238/What-butler-Paul-Burrell-said-Queen-Prince-Philip-Charles—himself.html

          Mr Burrell said he did not ask the Queen what she meant when she told him ‘to be careful’ at the infamous ‘dark forces’ meeting, the inquest heard.

    • Alcyone: The Age when Eagles are Creepy Toothless Crocodiles

      “Furthermore, David Pannick QC has argued that only Parliament can decide to invoke Article 50, and most members are against Brexit.”

      So, why the referendum? What does Pannick say about that?

      • Habbabkuk (la vita e' bella!)

        I think there are three things in play here:

        1/. Constitutionally, the referendum can only be advisory since Parliament is sovereign (there is also the parallelism of forms aspect)

        2/. It is there was a majority of MPs for “Remain” bfore the referendum date

        3/. That majority might have been reduced or have vanished since the referendum result.

        • Loony

          As has been explained to you before ultimate sovereignty rests with the people, and the people invest their sovereignty in Parliament. In the case of the EU referendum, Parliament is obliged to give effect to the will of the people.

          If it cannot or will not fulfill its constitutional duty then it is obliged to dissolve itself and reconstitute itself in a form that enables it to fulfill its obligations.

        • bevin

          Parliament is not sovereign. The Queen (in Parliament) is.
          And she is so because Parliament is presumed-absent a referendum indicating otherwise- to represent the people better than the Queen does.
          It may be news to you but the Constitution is unwritten, which is to say, evolving. The referendum was a big step in that evolution, calling into question the “sovereignty” of the House of Commons.

          • Loony

            The sovereignty of the Queen is notional and her role is largely confined to ceremonial functions.

            Ultimate sovereignty resides with the people. It is current custom for the people delegate their sovereignty to Parliament for specified periods of time. General Elections are the means by which Parliament seeks, and the people grants further delegations of sovereignty.

            For the period of its sitting Parliament is the sovereign power. With specific regard to the EU Parliament chose to return sovereignty to the people. The Referendum was the mechanism through which the people instructed Parliament.

            The referendum does not call into question the sovereignty of Parliament, and of itself raises no particular constitutional issues.

            The consequences of the referendum could lead to complex constitutional issues – for example the situation with regard to both Scotland and Northern Ireland. A full blown constitutional crisis could be created should Parliament refuse to initiate actions to extricate the UK from the EU.

            So far as it is possible to know the only avenue available to Parliament not to initiate such actions would require it to rely on “the advisory nature of the referendum” This is unlikely to be a persuasive argument and any attempt to rely on it could of itself trigger a constitutional crisis.

          • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

            Loony

            “So far as it is possible to know the only avenue available to Parliament not to initiate such actions would require it to rely on “the advisory nature of the referendum” This is unlikely to be a persuasive argument and any attempt to rely on it could of itself trigger a constitutional crisis.”
            ____________________

            On the contrary, the “advisory” argument is most persuasive and I very much doubt that relying on it will provoke a constitutional crisis. Any crisis provoked will occur on the political and not constitutional level.

            You say a lot in flowery legal language but I’ve noticed it’s all opinion and not fact.

          • Loony

            The advisory nature of the referendum is an argument, but it is not necessarily “most persuasive.” It should be evaluated in conjunction with representations made by the holders of the high offices of state made in the run up to the referendum.

            A review of those representations would lead to the conclusion that the political leadership of the country considered the outcome of the referendum to be binding.

            In any event it is not my opinion that will count. Anyone intending to rely on this argument should seek to have it tested. That they are not doing so is perhaps instructive.

            Even if this argument were considered to be persuasive alternatives remain. The most obvious being that the British people elect to Parliament representatives that commit to withdrawing the UK from the EU. Given that Parliament retains discretion as to when to dissolve itself then any delay in dissolution coupled with a failure to enact measures to withdraw the UK from the EU would by definition represent a constitutional crisis.

            The UK has an unwritten constitution and therefore any interpretation of it absent specific legal guidance is of necessity opinion. Your observation that my comments constitute opinion rather than fact is by obviously correct. Therefore I wonder why you male it.

    • Habbabkuk (la vita e' bella!)

      These are exactly my views. Good to see that someone else is posting in the same vein. Venceremos!

    • Shatnersrug

      Really hard to say Jack, I can’t speak for Criag, but put it this way, it would not surprise me if, in a year’s time we’ll all be sitting around saying “what ever happened to Brexit? Don’t hear about that anymore do you” and everything continues as was.

      The right wing press could still continue EU bashing and government bashing “ignoring democracy, blah blah” whilst not having the fall out from an actual Brexit.

      I feel like it’s almost already been swept under the carpet in some ways.

  • michael norton

    We ought to have a proper Leaver for Prime minister

    no half measures

    Out means
    Out

    whoever the new prime minister is

    they should just write a note to the E.U. Elite and clearly say

    We have left
    now go and boil your heads.

    • Jack

      The “EU Elite” cares more about the deprived areas of the UK than Westminster ever did. If we withdraw from EU, Cornwall, Wales and Yorkshire are going to be hit hard by loss of funding.

      Quite telling when Remainers make arguments from fact and Brexiters from emotion “we have left now go and boil your heads”

        • Clark

          And maybe it was swung by the protest vote from voters habituated to an electoral system that routinely throws away most of their votes. Very hard to say, with the margin of victory being less than 4%.

          • michael norton

            I’d like to know if there was any fraudulent behaviour ( like in Austria)
            with our postal votes in our recent Referendum.

          • AliB

            Reply To Michael Norton:
            A considerable number of postal voting papers did not reach their intended destination until a date that made it impossible to return in time to be counted. I would consider that fraudulent and I understood the Electoral Commission was going to look into it to see if the number could have made a difference to the outcome.

          • michael norton

            Alib
            are you alluding to the United Kingdom Referendum?

            Are you meaning that @[email protected] postal votes have not been counted?

            Are you meaning FRAUD?

            Surely not in U.K. as in Austria

            If in these two ancient European countries, then anywhere in Europe
            the people could be robbed of their democracies?

          • Clark

            Oh for goodness sake. An inconclusive result is an inconclusive result. Whichever half get their way, they’ll be inflicting their will on the other half. A better debate needs to be held, and crucially, the government needs to find out precisely what people are actually unhappy about in their own lives, not what cause they ascribe it to, and then offer options that can fix those problems. Only after that does it become worth voting, and it was never done for this referendum.

        • Leonard Young

          “Cornwall, Wales and Yorkshire all voted strongly to leave. Perhaps they know something you don’t.”

          They know how to bite the hand that feeds, and this is partly justified. As a former Cornish resident I can confirm that a good part of EU money has not resulted in any significant improvement in the quality of life for those who live there. What it has done is to transform that county into a Yuppie playground and triggered a property boom of epic proportions. Similar to Devon ten years before. That said, I think the EU made a sincere effort to help, so I do not blame it entirely.

          The money was ill-distributed to those least deserving of it, and a lot of it ended up in the hands of the worst kind of PR people whose only goal is “competitive marketing” and being on the top of some kind of chart for tourist growth:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znkb-lQF6Ac

          Nearly all of this cash has enriched corporate invaders whose actions have resulted in a huge hike in property prices, which is why St Ives has just voted, 25 years too late, to shut out new second home owners. Old Hill in Falmouth was until recently the accepted poorest place in the whole of Britain, along with many other places like Helston, Redruth and Camborne. EU money is good – as long as you follow that up with critical and careful vetting of its recipients.

      • Loony

        What you say may or may not be true. But the real point is lots of people have very little, and as the old saying goes when you aint got nothing you got nothing to lose.

        The stripping away of assets, pride, dignity and purpose from vast swathes of the (former) working classes may yet prove to have been an error.

    • James

      He/She could give their “up yours Europe” note to one of the departing international CEO’s, as they fly out of the UK and head “Europeside”.

      …and don’t worry about flying, the UK will still be a member of EASA (at a cost),
      pilots will still be able to work (at a cost) given their work visas are in order.

      The bill ? Well, the Operator will pass that on to the pax.
      At least The Press will still be able to “moan” about Europe being “unfair”.

      Happy Holidays !

  • giyane

    Al Jazeera might also omit to tell you that the US Iraqi campaign against Daesh is being held up from going to Mosul so that the US can airlift out its precious leaders who are destined for use somewhere else.

    That;s not bias, that’s 4th generation inbreeding of nutcases at the CIA. They’ve gone so loopy they’ve looped the loop.

    • Alan

      Al Jazeera might also omit to tell you that the US Iraqi campaign against Daesh is being held up from going to Mosul so that the US can airlift out its precious leaders who are destined for use somewhere else.

      Not the fall of Saigon yet again?

  • pete fairhurst

    I am not UKIP supporter. Far from it. But fairs fair.

    If I recall correctly then UKIP got about 4 times as many votes in the last GE than the SNP did. Our first past the post system gave them one seat. SNP got over 50. This is the primary reason that they are “a negligible electoral force”.

    Based on their number of votes alone then surely the Beeb have a duty to give them prominent coverage?

    • George S Gordon

      This is an oft-repeated and misleading UKIP complaint, also used by Unionists in Scotland to cast doubt on the electoral achievements of the SNP.

      Fairness requires consideration that the UKIP vote was spread across a large section of the rest of the UK, whereas the SNP vote was concentrated entirely within Scotland (much to the chagrin of quite a few voters in England). Bear in mind that the rUK has about 10 times the number of constituencies, and about 12 times the population, as Scotland.

      • pete fairhurst

        How is it misleading? Facts are facts and UKIP got 4 times as many votes as the SNP. So why is a vote in Scotland more valuable than a vote anywhere else in the UK?

        Scotland rejected Independence didn’t it? It was still part of the UK last time I looked.

        I was not casting doubt on the SNP, or supporting unionists [red or blue Tories], far from it. I was merely commenting on the unfairness of our first past the post system. And pointing out that the BBC had a duty to give significant prominence to UKIP in the recent EU referendum because, by number of votes cast, they are the third party in the UK.

        By the same basis then, they far outweigh the SNP, but they only got 1 seat. How is that fair?

        • AliB

          The BBC didn’t seem to feel the need to give the Green Party any airtime at all.

          Our “democracy” is totally manipulated and a complete sham. The BBC was kind enough to repeat the LEAVE campaigns lies ad nauseum; if it had been a straight forward advert they would have been done by the Advertising Standards Committee.

          • pete fairhurst

            I was responding to point b) in Craig’s post. I just reread what Craig wrote and he said nothing about the Greens so I fail to see the relevance of your comment.

            As for your “manipulated and a complete sham” comment then I have some sympathy. But not with your one eyed perspective. The manipulation cuts both ways doesn’t it. The level of debate in the referendum campaign was risible. With the ridiculous scaremongering of Remain equally vulnerable to your theoretical ASC action.

        • Rob Royston

          It does not matter how many people vote for them across the country. What matters is the number of constituencies that they win.

          • pete fairhurst

            Huh? Yes I was complaining about “first past the post”. And yes “first past the post” is constituency based. I thought everybody realised that. So your point is?

          • Rob Royston

            My point is regarding your belief that a vote in Scotland is more valuable than a vote anywhere else in the UK. You seem to ignore that Scotland is only allocated one constituency for every ten in other parts of the UK. The UKIP vote is spread over ten times as many constituencies and ten times the electorate as the SNP vote is.

        • Ba\'al Zevul

          Every SNP member currently sitting received a majority vote in his or her own constituency, under the present system. That was not the case for UKIP: none achieved a majority vote (I except the defector Carswell). With a similar turnout under proportional representation, this would still be the case except that UKIP MP’s could be elected on the backs of people who hadn’t voted for UKIP at all.

    • lysias

      Under the ancient Athenian system of choosing officials (including the equivalent of legislators) by lot, every segment of the population would, by the laws of statistics, be represented proportionally to their share of the population.

      • pete fairhurst

        Yes, their ancient system would have significant merits today I think.

        As well as your proportional point there would also be no “professional” politicians. Wonderful! I would trust ordinary people above politicians every time. With the proviso that they received unbiased information of course.

        Second there would be no political parties. Wonderful again! Party politics is part of the problem with our so called “democracy” I think. Not part of the solution. Certainly national parties do not represent their constituents adequately. Witness the Brexit vote. Majorities to leave in virtually all the Labour heartlands. But these majorities were not represented by the Labour party, or most of the Labour MP’s.

        This accountability disconnect is an important reason for the Leave vote I think. What other way does the electorate have to “kick the bums out”, or kick the political class full stop? The first past the post system means that there are only a few dozen marginals where they can be kicked out at a GE. Most of the seats are comparatively “safe”. So why bother voting at all in one of those if nothing changes? A referendum offers the chance to kick them where it hurts. And many people did just that. Blue Tories, red Tories they all wanted Remain. And they got a well deserved kicking.

  • DerekM

    I agree Craig and we are still getting it thrown at us today its the old you will be like Greece routine and oil you are all doomed you need our help or else same old same old,i think in the last few weeks of the EU ref the BBC went full out remain it was like looking at better together from 2014 as tories and labour pulled out the line of failed politicians to tell the oiks what to do.

    It really worked well not and just when you think it cant get any more mental out comes old warmongerer himself mass murderer Blair,a chimp with a bad hairdo and a goldfish could have one after that oh wait they did.

    Where`s your plan B eh whats a plan?

    • Alan

      we are still getting it thrown at us today its the old you will be like Greece routine

      And just like the Greeks, you refuse to listen.

          • fedup

            Do be sensible – Goldman would not hire this person as a cleaner

            How about the chap wearing the braided coat and a top hat rushing to open the car doors and usher the occupants into the building? That is a very important job, with an important looking suit with impressive gold braiding, and ordering people which way to go and who to find? Whilst tipping the hat and generally looking pompous and smug?

  • giyane

    Obviously what is need to break up media bias is for more media organisations to be owned by the sponsors of terra.
    cottage garden flower displays?

      • nevermind

        now that would be the end of the EU and a lawyers feast to boot. If Germany starts printing Deutschmarks, because some would like to leave the EU, then the end of the project EU, as designed by the CIA, would have really failed.

        Its success was that it enabled people, enabled markets and economies, workers benefits, an environmental agenda, however much the Paris accord is treated like dirt and much more.
        That countries insisted to appoint unelected Commissioners was one of many mistakes that led to this eventual breakdown.
        Now lets see how a proportionally elected Government deals with this issue, and whether they will have made a plan for what happens if a leave vote succeeds.

        Excellent Ba’al, you had me in stitches. I shall enjoy tonights footie feast so much more….

      • Habbabkuk (la vita e' bella!)

        Norton

        Actually it is not “Germany” which is calling for a referendum but the Alternative for Germany political party.

        Even your source – the Express – managed to be more honest than you.

        • michael norton

          It will be Austria calling, Germany calling, The Netherlands calling, Sweden calling, Finland calling, Hungary calling,
          France calling, Italy calling, Greece calling, Cyprus calling, Ireland calling, Portugal calling, Spain caaling

          soon.

          • michael norton

            No need to dream.
            It will happen because it will be the people who are calling for the EXIT

          • michael norton

            The people do not want to listen to the conniving E.U. Elite

            they want immigration to stop
            they want real jobs for real wages
            they no-longer want to be slaves
            In fact they want to be free
            free to live in democratic countries
            not in countries where the will of the people is stolen from them, like everything has been stolen by the Elite
            the 1% ers.

          • Republicofscotland

            Michael Norton.

            The far right AfD party, Alternative for Deutschland, is according to this link, on 15% of the Bundestag electoral vote, but still quite a bit adrift of Merkel’s CDU party which is at 33%.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/germanys-far-right-afd-party-has-more-public-support-than-ever/

            Add to that, this from your link.

            “Party leader Frauke Petry, who caused controversy earlier this year when she called on German police to open fire on illegal immigrations, reacted with delight at Britain’s decision to sever ties with Brussels.”

            I admit I don’t have my finger on the pulse, as what the German public think, on political matters regarding the EU however, I doubt very much, gunning down immigrants on the streets of Germany is high on their agenda.

            My own personal view is the far right anti-immigration/EU parties populartity has or will peak soon, off the back of Britain’s decision to leave the EU.

            I fully expect the EU to survive the unrest.

        • Alan

          Habbakook who said this? “There are dark forces at work, of which we know nothing.”

          Was it

          1. David Icke
          2. Craig Murray
          3. Her Sovereign Majesty Elizabeth II

          Feel free to answer in your own good time.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    (a) Not having an idiot box I can’f comment on the BBC’s TV coverage. But Radio 4 was unequivocally punting the Remain line at every possible opportunity.

    (b) The previous coverage of UKIP was out of all proportion to its presence, and one reason for this might have been the correct assessment that it would take votes from Labour in the election. It enjoyed the same inequitable treatment as the rest of the Leave campaign once the referendum became the issue. Subsequently, eg, UKIP was represented on Any Questions yesterday. I think we’ll be seeing more of it again, especially if Corbyn can hang on until Chilcot comes out.

    (c) I’m not sure I see how breaking up media control can be done, or that it will help. With occasional honourable exceptions whoever owns print dictates its editorial policy, and owners will generally vote with the big money. Since the Scott Trust became a limited company, that’s been true of the Guardian. Effectively they are run by accountants, and accountants all have the same mindset – faithfully transmitted to the owners, whoever they are. Interestingly, while the Sun was pro-Leave, the Times was pretty equivocal: there was some diversity even under Murdoch (who personally favoured Leave) But government control is an absolute no-no.

    The print media are in any case dying on their feet. (One way of staving this off is for them to take a populist stance, as the Mail is certainly doing. And that can work to the advantage of the Left as well as the right. The Mail hates Blair with a passion, for instance.)
    I’d say it’s probably better to worry about the accuracy of online reporting than the last struggles of the print dinosaurs. And there’s a hell of a lot of worrying to be done.

    (d) Don’t tell them, Pike! Once the message gets through that patronising the public and assuming that the electors exist for the benefit of politicians backfires, they’ll think of something else, probably involving compulsory behaviour-modification implants in our brains. Ca’ canny!

    (e) At every possible point, remind everyone you can get to that 50% of journalistic output consists of press handouts, printed by all papers, or agency pieces which may or may not be politically neutral; and most of the rest is commentary on these.

    • michael norton

      The BBC now seem to be shunning
      Nigel Farage.
      If he had not devoted the last quarter of a century of his life to obtaining an European Union Leave campaign

      we would not have given one by Dave Cameron.
      Now the wonderful United Kingdom Electorate have spoken.
      The Electorate have been clear
      OUT means OUT

      but why is Nigel being kept out of the loop?

      • Anon1

        Because there are immense opportunities here and St Nigel knows how to take them.

        Can’t have that. Much better to put a downer on the country’s chances, make the debate all about racism/xenophobia, and promote whichever treacherous Tory is most likely to screw us over with a fudged Brexit-lite deal. Step forward Theresa May.

    • Anon1

      I cannot understand how anyone could possibly conclude that the BBC was biased towards Leave, or even just moderately biased towards Remain. It was, and still is, relentlessly anti-Brexit in its coverage and doesn’t even attempt to hide the fact.

      It must be that those making these claims know fully well which side the BBC is on, but seek to muddy the waters by pretending the BBC is biased towards the other side.

      The only thing to be said in defence of the BBC is that it is nowhere near as bad as C4.

    • bevin

      Absolutely right, particularly regarding the old fashioned daily print media, which is trying to postpone its demise by any means available. In the case of The Guardian this used to mean expanding its reach through the internet to the point that it ceased to depend on print advertising and newsstand sales.
      It was then that the ultra Blairites and the Zionists tempted them to accept subsidies instead, sacrifice their credibility, lose their readership and prepare to go quietly into the dark night.
      Viner’s appeals are a sign that things are getting very dire. Which is why currently the paper makes the old Pravda look like IF Stone’s Weekly (which come to think of it….)

    • nevermind

      I shall wait until Tuesday and ring a loud bell where it will be heard.
      The victims of the Iraq war have had no justice or peace, so those implicated in the Chilcot report should face up to their past actions and deceptions.

    • Manda

      Along with Al Jazeera and BBC Today programme in my ‘look at occasionally’ to see where the wind is currently blowing file.

    • Ba'al Zevul

      You are probably referring to this?

      https://twitter.com/hashtag/marchforeurope

      Ho, hum. However, Owen hints at the reason for this in “The Establishment (and how they get away with it)”:

      ” In modern Britain, sovereignty does not really rest with its people.Neither the European Union nor any other single institution has, above all others, deprived the people of its sovereignty. It is the Establishment that really reigns supreme…that has curtailed and trimmed British democracy, ensuring Britain is a country rigged in favour of a self-aggrandising elite.”

      In fact, that 1% will find a way to profit from victory for either side in the EU contest. Who marches for which side is utterly irrelevant to that. I find Jones conflicted, but innocent af any misdemeanour in this.

      • Anon1

        So one step one step at a time then, Owen. If he believes the EU is one pillar of the Establishment that has deprived people of their sovereignty, what is he doing on the #marchforgoldmansachs ? Conflicted, yes.

        • Ba\'al Zevul

          He may believe, as many leftwing Remainers do, that the EU’s principles and policies, while falling well short of his ideal, are more palatable than those of unrestrained market forces as advocated by many Leavers. An entirely defensible position, which he is entitled to express. If you as a rightwinger wish to keep the Left onside*, you’d do better to make some positive moves to address the issues than to antagonise it, though.

          *and you’ll have to

    • MJ

      I’m finding it very slow to load but it gets there in the end. Perhaps it’s getting a lot of visitors but the number of comments this morning don’t support that.

    • fedup

      You dirty man! What have you written in that comment box? For the site to have a touch of the vapours and be in need of smelling slats? ROFL (Sorry J S-D could not let it go without having a little fun.)

  • Mark Golding

    Project Fear may well be displaced by Project Hope, a principal within a trust-inspiring ring of truth. Few politicians have the credibility to square the circle posed by Brexit and call out the misery and destitution of austerity capitalism. One such politician who I had penciled into my event horizon was vegan Kerry McCarthy, a radical, long-time member of both Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East, and the All-Party Group on Palestine who is prepared to listen to the plight of Gazans.

    Her resignation was extraordinary indeed in that she felt a need for a new leader of Red Labour to steer the ship through difficult times.

    If she had been a little more honest we would learn of her frustration towards her leader’s tilt towards exiting Europe as a catalyst for transition to community and populace, the breakthrough of hope, a breakthrough the mainstream media and political pundits thought was impossible.

    What is possible can be seen through the vision of John McDonnell who supported the WOW Petition, fought Atos, and has called out Capitalism itself as the source of our economic crises. John recently said: ”If Jeremy had walked on water during the (referendum) campaign he would have been blamed for the loss. What we are watching is a leadership coup.”

    “We have been trying to explain to some members of the PLP there’s a recent Greek invention and it’s called democracy.

    “What democracy means is that people come together with each having a vote, and when that vote has a majority, that decision should be abided by – this is a battle for democracy.”

    The permanent political class is facing the most real and present threat to their power since 1979. We have witnessed a “a lynch mob without the rope” that discloses to us, the people, the Blairites are going to throw every weapon in their armory at ensuring that the Corbyn menace is evaporated.

    But none of those weapons is more powerful than a tight-knit, grass roots movement with its eye on shared vision of an inspiring future.

  • Dude Swheatie of the Kilburn Unemployed

    Regarding the ‘press bias’, the BBC only ever included the Morning Star in its review of the newspapers after Corbyn was elected Labour Party leader, and that was only for just one review as I recall.

    And had they made a habit of including the Morning Star in its reviews of newspapers, it would have been more apparent that it was not just racists and right-wingers in general that were in favour of Brexit. (The Morning Star’s view being that the EU is too fundamentally a capitalist organisation.)

    Alongside too much favouring of UKIP, this Green Party member within the non-party-political Kilburn Unemployed Workers Group has seen from email that the BBC were keen to exclude the Green Party of England & Wales from Party Election Broadcast rights, while it favoured the overtly Brexit UKIP.

    One Kilburn Unemployed Workers Group who does not have UK citizen rights has spoken for many in similar or worse states of exclusion than her own. EU — Can I Stay Or Must I Go? — An EU National’s Perspective. What would be the impact of Brexit on children of EU or EEA nationals in UK schools? Wembley Matters blogger Martin Francis — himself a former headteacher — reports on that Headteachers call for government to reassure EU children in UK of their right to stay
    and on the perils and pitfalls of putting Oliver Letwin anywhere near responsibility for handling the fallout Green MEP: Letwin appointment confirms worst fears about Brexit.

    My guitar teacher — a 2nd generation Italian with a Swedish wife — has told me that the Daily Mail backed Brexit while the Mail on Sunday backed Remain. He voted Remain because he could not stand the thought of the disruption that would cause. The phrase, “Be careful what you wish for,” comes to mind.

    • nevermind

      Thanks for that link to Green party MEP Molly Scott Cato’s rebuke of Oliver Letwin, Dude Sweathie of the Kilburn unemployed, the EU Parliament has lost a very able woman with immense economical insight. Molly should somehow be involved, should a progressive Alliance between Greens and real Labour might still be on the cards.
      here is the link again, Molly is level headed, a confident women who knows what she speaks of.
      http://wembleymatters.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/green-mep-letwin-appointment-confirms.html

      and here speaking against TTIP.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOJupMCBTPE

      The Green Party is engulfed by its very own leadership campaign and the honourable policy of promoting gender balance at electoral level, does seemingly not apply to their leadership and a matter for them to resolve.

  • My Cocaine

    “The right wing print media were indeed a major problem distorting democracy.”

    If there’s one thing that gets my goat more than anything in current political discourse, its sentiments like the above. To be fair to Craig Murray, he’s not the only one guilty of this mindset, but this monkey see, monkey do attitude, that permeates within media circles, is patronizing at best, insulting at worst.

    There always seems to be this underlying assumption that if people pick up a Murdoch or a Dacre newspaper, they automatically believe everything they read…

    It’s the old cliché, but democracy is as good as people want it to be. Evil media barons pulling strings and rabble rousing the great unwashed, has long been in a theme in modern society, but I am reminded of the vilification that Atlee received from Fleet Street…and then he won a General Election by a landslide….

    Mr Murray, I’m in agreement with you on a lot things, but not on this…

    • John Spencer-Davis

      If newspapers or other media are unable in any way to shape public opinion, they would not spend so much time presenting a particular viewpoint upon the world.

    • Ben Monad

      They aren’t journalists. They are readers and transcribers. I’m not sure why Craig is so reluctant to call out AJ for their scant reporting. They are cut from the same jib. Their treasure is not the psychic dollars.

      It’s all about circulation and ad rates baby.

  • Republicofscotland

    One wonders if the leave camp, at the beginning of the campaign to leave the EU, thought to themselves, we can’t win this so lets push the boat out. That would partially explain why not a modicum of preparation was put into place before hand.

    Could the press, with likes of the Telegraph and the Daily Mail, backing leave, have misjudged the mood of the public, with regards to Brexit? More importantly on the economic side why didn’t, (Mark Carney aside) prominent bodies such as the IFS come forward sooner to warn of the real dangers of Brexit, and why weren’t their warnings heeded?

    On the leave side press included, I’ve never seen such blatent recklessness, and sheer lack of foresight, which in the coming years will inevitably manifest itself, in the form of poorer living standards within these islands.

    In my opinion, the highly contentious subject of immigration, and that Farage poster, frightened many voters into voting remain.

    Incidently Craig I couldn’t help noticing the three decanters behind you were empty. ?

    • MJ

      “in the coming years will inevitably manifest itself, in the form of poorer living standards within these islands”

      I didn’t realise you were a prophet. Can you tell us tonight’s lottery numbers?

    • Tom

      Sadly, the warnings were made but the press lied and pretended it was all a scare campaign, presumably because their masters fear unity among the peoples of Europe. They are now trying to make light of the monumental deception by pretending some of their columnists are having second thoughts on supporting Leave. In fact, they are merely continuing to lie and betray the country – and frankly in most places they and their foreign-based owners would already have been rounded up and charged with treason.
      We live in a fake democracy where the general elections are at best heavily loaded so the establishment always wins, and at worst rigged, and where the media lie and smear rather than giving people information.
      It does feel as though we’re approaching the end game, though.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Express your vote of confidence in or no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn on 38 Degrees.

    38 Degrees has two petitions up. I don’t use 38 Degrees myself, but if you have no objections to doing so then you can sign a petition expressing confidence in Jeremy Corbyn (current support 254,700) or you can sign a petition expressing no confidence in him (current support 400). Figures rounded up to nearest hundred.

    https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit

    https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/vote-of-no-confidence-in-labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn

    The choice is yours! J

      • michael norton

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_presidential_election,_2016#Overturning

        Overturning the Austrian Presidential Elections because of Irregularities

        On 8 June, FPÖ chairman Heinz-Christian Strache brought a 152-page appeal to the Constitutional Court.
        Strache charged that more than 30,000 votes had been prematurely tallied, more than 50,000 votes had been counted by unauthorized personnel, and over 500,000 ballots were invalid. Other charges included minors and non-citizens having been allowed to vote.The Austrian Interior Ministry acknowledged some irregularities but that the number of votes affected was not enough to overturn the results. “There was sloppiness,” said Austrian Interior Minister Wolfgang Sobotka

        Counsel for Van der Bellen argued that the irregularities would have had only an “insignificant” impact on results while lawyers for the FPÖ said they could have affected the results of the election. But on 1 July, since Hofer had lost to Van der Bellen by 30,863 votes and the Court found that more than twice that number (77,926) had been affected by breaches of the electoral code, Constitutional Court head Gerhart Holzinger ordered the second round be re-held.
        Noting the irregularities, the Court said in a statement: “It is completely clear to the Constitutional Court that laws regulating an election must be rigorously applied… This must rule out abuse and manipulations.”

        Before the Court’s ruling, Van der Bellen was scheduled to be sworn in as president on 9 July. Until new elections are called, outgoing Austrian president Heinz Fischer would be replaced on an interim basis by the three presidents of the National Council, a “National President Council”, of which Hofer is the third.
        Van der Bellen said that Austrians were “shocked and unsettled” by the Court’s ruling, but that he expected to win a second time

        • michael norton

          I wonder how common this ballot rigging is in Europe, I suppose it goes on all the time.
          Not a word said in the United Kingdom about the postal votes?

          • bevin

            I am sure that it is absolutely routine with postal ballots. And it is a result of the Mandelson/Blair axis importing Tammany Hall methods to go with Washington politics.

    • Resident Dissident

      The Party’s behind Corbyn – are your sure?

      • A YouGov poll published today found 44% of members want Jeremy to resign now, 10% before the General Election and only 41% want him to lead us into the General Election: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/30/labour-members-corbyn-post-brexit/ Jeremy’s approval rating among members has dropped by 21% in one month.
      • Over 500 councillors have signed a letter calling for Jeremy to resign.
      • Motions of no confidence in Jeremy have been passed by good margins in CLPs including Battersea, Camberwell & Peckham, Croydon South, Perth & Kinross, Streatham, Tooting, Wrexham. Yes this list is a bit London-heavy but this is in itself significant as the very big London CLPs carry a big weight in any leadership election.
      • Alexandra Ward in Haringey, with 400 members one of the largest branches in the UK, passed a no confidence motion.
      • Motions expressing confidence in Jeremy were defeated in Hampstead & Kilburn, Holborn & St Pancras and Leeds NE (with 150 members splitting 2-1) both very large and historically very leftwing CLPs.
      • In Oxford, of 1000 members who have written to Andrew Smith MP, 60% wanted Jeremy to resign.
      • In Hackney North and Hackney South both CLPs saw resounding defeats for Momentum at their CLP AGMs last night, with hundreds of members present.

      • Mark Golding

        Okay Corbyn’s support has dropped but 50% would still vote for Corbyn vs. 40% for Angela Eagle according to the YouGov Poll..

        The drop in support seems perfectly understandable given the barrage of negative propaganda to which Corbyn has been subjected over the last week (during which the poll was taken).

        Furthermore 60% said the Labour MPs who resigned this week ‘were wrong to resign and try to force Jeremy Corbyn to step down’ while only 36% approved of such a move.

        I will ask Titchmarsh if he would kindly cultivate improvements to JC’s garden ;).

  • Republicofscotland

    As for (Frexit) a French exit from the EU, I very much doubt France a major player within the EU will vote to leave the EU.

    French right wing party Front National headed by Marine Le Pen, has made gains in the municipal votes and European Parliament elections of late. However I feel that France the home of Europe’s largest Muslim population, won’t bestow a mandate on the Le Pen or Front National anytime soon.

      • michael norton

        That TWAT Hollande is going to be on a hiding to nothing
        He said he would not stand for the position of President of the Republic of FRANCE
        again if unemployment was not lower than when he assumed the mantle.

        Well it is now above 11% for adults ( who can be bothered to sign on)
        much higher for youngsters ( those under 25 and not in education/schemes)
        FRANCE has experience terrible disruption for 18 months now, (Vigipirate)
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigipirate#Levels_of_alert_.28from_2014.29
        almost endless strikes and demonstrations, even the police marching about because people do not like them.
        You name them, they’ve been shouting the odds for a long time, they do not want Austerity, they do not want Sarky and they do not want Hollande.
        The place is shooting itself in both feet.
        Utter shambles.

      • Republicofscotland

        The point I was trying to get across, is I don’t think there’s an appetite in France for a vote on staying or leaving the EU, though Rob.G would possibly be the right person to ask in here as he lives in France.

        This however is rather interesting.

        “French president François Hollande is seeking to reconcile two opposing goals: on the one hand, he must rebuild the unity of the French left to stand any chance of re-election in 2017; on the other, he must press home his social-liberal agenda to curb France’s rising unemployment, which risks alienating potential coalition partners to the left of the Socialist party (PS).”

        “The left must present a united front to secure its place in what promises to be a highly competitive presidential runoff in 2017. Recent polls have suggested the outgoing president could be beaten into third place by Marine Le Pen”

        “As Hollande’s approval ratings fell back to their 2015 nadir in February, despite the ‘boost’ after the November terror attacks, there appears to be a growing consensus among parties of the left to push for a presidential primary. ”

        “The principle has been endorsed by the PS itself, the Greens and the Communists. There is equally growing pressure on the Parti de Gauche’s leader, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, to renounce his own presidential bid, which could be fatal to the left next year.”

        http://www.policy-network.net/pno_detail.aspx?ID=5069&title=Walking+a+fine+line%3a+Hollande+and+the+French+left

        I wonder if Rob.G would agree with any of the above, taken from the link.

        • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

          RoS

          “The point I was trying to get across, is I don’t think there’s an appetite in France for a vote on staying or leaving the EU, though Rob.G would possibly be the right person to ask in here as he lives in France.”
          _______________________

          I lust say I often enjoy your sense of humour!

          Yes, let’s hear RobG! 🙂

    • Republicofscotland

      Some interesting, titbits on the front runners to lead the Britain, out of the EU into the unknown, although, Alvin Toffler’s Future Shock, seems fitting.

      Ex journalist Gove, is a fan of capital punishment, he has stated Rupert Murdoch is his friend and has dined on occasion with him.

      Murdoch has allegedly said, on issues with the EU.

      “When I go into 10 Downing St, they do what I say, when I go to Brussels, they take no notice of me.”

      Theresa May, was the one who signed ofc on the “Go Home ” vans that toured the country, aimed at illegal immigrants. She’s also the one behind the Investigatory Powers bill, that will force web and phone companies to retain your data for 12 months. The bill also makes companies legally obliged to assist police to hack into and bug your home, computer or phone.

      Stephen Crabb, has links to organisations that believe they can cure homosexuality.

      Liam Fox, had to resign after giving his friend special access to senior figures in the defence world. Mr Fox also claimed 3 pence of taxpayer money for a car journey less than 100 metres.

      Andrea Leadsom, has a history of using offshore banking arrangements for her buy-to-let property company, she’s also campaigned vigoursly to prevent caps on bankers bonuses.

      So there you have it, I must admit, none of the above fill me with confidence, when it comes to negotiating with the EU in the near future. Future Shock indeed.

      http://www.thenational.scot/politics/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-tory-party-hopefuls-but-were-too-afraid-to-ask.19485

      • Loony

        Republic – You refer to illegal immigrants being advised to go home.

        What are the choices with regard to this issue? They can “go home” or be deported on the basis that they are in the country illegally.

        Alternatively they can be granted legal status and be free to remain. This creates an incentive for anyone to come to the UK by any means possible since they know that their presence alone is sufficient to obtain legal status.

        A third alternative (and the one covertly adopted by the government) is to do nothing. The odd person is deported should a PR adviser recommend that such action will play favorably in the public domain. The vast bulk of illegals are left to their own devices and to obtain whatever work they can – ordinarily at well below minimum wage and devoid of any employment rights whatsoever.

        The government estimates that there are in excess of 13,000 slaves in the UK and that these numbers are rising. It is reasonable to suppose that a lot of illegal immigrants will be satisfying the demand for slaves. Is this a good idea? Is this a humane response? Is this better than deportation?

        • michael norton

          Chertsey Cafe was recently raided by the Immigration, several Turkish people taken away in handcuffs, they simultaneously raided the house where the illegal workers stay.

        • Republicofscotland

          Looney.

          Yes I agree illegal immigrants should be deported, confidis in adiunctis, of course. However I and many others found the way Theresa May went about it distasteful.

          I’m sure the Home office, could’ve come up with a better idea, than the one that was implimented.

    • RobG

      I can only speak for my own little corner of France, where if there were a referendum tomorrow they’d vote out of the EU.

      The French voted to adopt the Euro by a very narrow margin (2 percentage points, if I remember). The French also famously voted against the EU constitution, by a wide margin, so the EU turned it into a treaty, the Treaty of Lisbon, and pushed it through unaffected by referendum votes.

      Don’t underestimate the French, who since March have been out on the streets in massive numbers, protesting against the neo-con agenda – you can read all about it in your favourite CIA controlled rag. Not.

      Unlike their counterparts in the UK, who go to their zero hours contract jobs while doffing their cap and cleaning for the Queen.

      Gawd bless her.

  • RobG

    The world is controlled by non-smoking lizard creatures who reside in the 4th dimension.

    I have a very bad chest infection at the moment and I’m on powerful anti-biotics.

    Mind you, looking at the Corbyn saga, once I come off the raw plugs I might continue to subscribe to the lizardy stuff.

    The world is flat, according to the flies that lizards eat.

    See, the sheeple just have to make the connections.

      • Alan

        ‘You shouldn’t be drinking while you are on antibiotics.’

        Life is short enough without abstaining from everything. Abstaining doesn’t make life longer, it just seems that way. Somebody famous said that, like Mark Twain.

  • charles drake

    the folks in the northern zones
    have they heard of elm guest house
    dolphin square
    westminster elite child catch rings
    who talks of saville today
    be it so
    so it will be so with article 50
    i’m sorry did you vote leave
    no no northern ruffian

    you voted to stay do you not remember dolt.
    quick look game of thrones dvd
    the gerbil has his wheel
    the cat nip
    dog his bone
    scum has football
    telly computer games and porn.
    heavy metals in the food water
    doctors brain cosh medication
    will do the job keeping brain cells
    numb
    as for media programming a kind of formatting
    is it not
    just ask gerbils sorry
    Joseph Goebbels

  • bevin

    “As for (Frexit) a French exit from the EU, I very much doubt France a major player within the EU will vote to leave the EU…”

    Leaving the EU is increasingly popular in France because the current attempt by the government to impose longer hours, lower wages and ,more insecurity on the population is done entirely at the behest of the EU. France is in peril, under EU and ECB rules, of being fined billions of euros annually if it does not “reform” its labour laws.
    This is the same sort of thing being imposed on Greece and, as a link I gave yesterday to news that TDs in the Dail cannot put forward Private Member motions without their being approved by the EU, demonstrates, in Ireland and elsewhere.
    The EU and the troika has gone crazy attempting to impose austerity everywhere to ensure that the Banks receive their pounds of flesh.
    The kind and gentle EU that so many here sentimentally defend does not exist. I suspect that it never did except as a figment of the imaginations of wishful thinkers. I know the feeling.

    • michael norton

      The popularity of the FN continued to grow apace: the party won several municipalities at the 2014 municipal elections; it became the first French party at the 2014 European elections with 25% of the votes; and again in the last departmental elections in France.
      They, once again, came out in 1st place in the last regional elections with a historic result of nearly 28% of the votes.
      Marine Le Pen would lead the first round of the 2017 presidential elections, according to various polls.
      As of 2015, the FN has established itself as one of the largest political forces in France.

      They want to ditch the Euro first, so they can have a floating currency ( like the United Kingdom)

    • Laguerre

      “Leaving the EU is increasingly popular in France because the current attempt by the government to impose longer hours, lower wages and ,more insecurity on the population is done entirely at the behest of the EU.”

      Yeah, they’ve yapping about that for ages. Nothing in France is done at the behest of the EU. The whole country would come to a halt if the farmers lost their subsidies. It wouldn’t be just loads of tomatoes dumped on the steps of the mairie.

      Much more likely is that they would go for the creation of a core EU, among the western countries, and leave eastern Europe out in a second speed zone. This has been discussed for some time, and seems to me not unlikely. It would need a bit of manipulation, but hey, the French are quite familar with that.

      • Republicofscotland

        Laguerre.

        I’m reminded of a part of a speech by Charles de Gaulle, from 1951, that I read in a book, some years ago on French unity.

        “The French will only be united under the threat of danger. Nobody can simply bring together, a country that has 265 kinds of cheese.” ?

      • bevin

        “Much more likely is that they would go for the creation of a core EU, among the western countries, and leave eastern Europe out in a second speed zone. This has been discussed for some time, and seems to me not unlikely. It would need a bit of manipulation, but hey, the French are quite familiar with that.”

        This, obviously, would amount to ending the EU as currently constituted. Or “leaving the EU.” It might very well appeal in France on the ground that a ‘core EU’ would be much more responsive to the electors of the governments within it, thus mitigating the flagrantly undemocratic nature of the current thing.

        It would also greatly change the relationships between the various states and the USA which regards the EU as a convenient means of enjoying the advantages of “one stop shopping.” It would also put an end to the delusion that the “liberated” former members of the Warsaw Pact are regarded as anything more than protectorates forming a convenient no man’s land between the Russians and the western powers which so much enjoy baiting them for their US masters.

        • Laguerre

          “This, obviously, would amount to ending the EU as currently constituted.”

          Oh, I don’t know, it could be spun, or manipulated.

          I was thinking about it a bit since I wrote that. It would be a classic French way of dealing with a stroppy institution. Rather than the face-out, involving lots of protests, necessary for seriously reforming an institution, they tend to leave it hanging with little funding, while setting up a new shiny institution, which receives all the investment. It happened to the Sorbonne in the 19th century, for example. It should have been like Oxbridge, but instead they invested in the Grandes Ecoles, which are the centres of privilege. There are lots of other examples.

          The idea would be to leave the EU exactly as it is, while creating a new “inner core” which would move forward, whatever that may mean. It wouldn’t even have to be a formal organisation. It’s already happening. We’ve seen recently a meeting of the six “founder members”, to decide things.

          I am not supporting such a movement, just commenting its existence.

  • Republicofscotland

    O/T. I do apologise.

    The FBI questioned Hilary Clinton for three and half hours today over her use of a computer service at her home.

    “A US attorney general was forced to say she would follow FBI recommendations on whether a prosecution would be necessary after it emerged she had met Bill Clinton, the former president, sparking speculation a backroom deal was in the offing.”

  • Tony_0pmoc

    This is totally Brilliant. I have never had so much fun in the last week or so…and Yes, I have been in a very similar situation to Jeremy Corbyn..I really wanted to hit the cunt…even after I didn’t and went outside for a cigarette to calm down and tense my muscles…My mate saved me from being a puddle of blood on the ground when I went back in to confront him. Big Powerful fit bloke..probably been fighting all his life..but unless you confront The Bullies – despite all the risks – then you are a coward, a wimp and a slug

    Jeremy Corbyn is none of these. I am beginning to really like this man.

    “Jeremy Corbyn held back by aides after furious confrontation with reporter who asked if he was ‘running away’ from Labour crisis ”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/jeremy-corbyn-urged-to-retire-with-dignity-as-hard-left-recruit/

    Tony

    • charles drake

      had dinner with churchill once
      i had beef wellington with a trafalgar sauce.
      glass of pims and a g and t.
      churchill had his usual
      pedigree chum
      he preferred fido brand
      but nestle took it over
      long gone.

      as for corbers he has to go now by hook or crook before whitewash leveson or is it chilcott.
      one of the eagle brothers will do they have plenty of spunk like terence stamp sorry i mean may.
      we need a new transgender leader direction a sexual birth lie with political truth.
      as long as corbers is gone asap before chilcot he can not be allowed to speak.
      what is his problem corbers has already been told we will learn the lessons of 2 million iraqi dead.
      blair is a rock with many tour talks left high value future profits yes sir.
      we cannot allow corbyn to perform a controlled demolition on the sacred cardinal tory blair

      • MJ

        I don’t think I’m transgender but I do have an intriguing birthmark on my abdomen. The smelly working-class kids used to laugh at me in the swimming pool but I have learned to love my blemish. It is proof of my individuality as a human being. I am proud to be part of the Birth Mark Trans-Wart Binary Mole (BMTWBM) community. Perhaps the faux-liberal zio-gangster establishment (are you listening Hillary?) can propel me into high office. I promise to come down hard on Muslims and brown people everywhere..

  • charles drake

    Brexit voters are xenophobic racists fact
    Bremain voters – including all with globalist inclusive diverse multicultural viewpoint – are tolerant saints
    we bremains must now take the gloves off after the rabble have spoken.

    daniel hannnan man is a brexiteer a racist possible anti semite.
    i do like james rubins husband Aman pour like clooneys aman eagle and may so manly.
    poor brutish bully daniel in the lions den

    Amanpour interviews pro-Brexit MEP Daniel Hannnan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivOOM0PbNps

    • Loony

      Charles – I admire your stylistic prose, but get a grip. The link you posted was beyond the pale.

      Surely this interview has been doctored and edited – no journalist could possibly conduct herself in such a demeaning manner, especially not an internationally acclaimed journalist working for one of the most respected and prestigious news organizations in the world.

      Just in case I am wrong here is an object lesson in how to speak to journalists.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64U1VTpoCNc

      It is the only language they understand.

      • bevin

        Great stuff. I agree about the “Amanapour” clip too: obviously doctored. I’m surprised that she hasn’t demanded its removal from youtube.
        It is usually hard to put one over the sage of Weybridge but this time, sad to say, Charlie fell for it.

      • charles drake

        if you folks from the northern carry on with this riot we may have to build a wall you may need a passport for london entry tell your friends to calm down and forget the vote ever happened.
        i have asked the environmental agency to add lithium into the fracked drinking water i here it calms folks and softens the will ask your g4s doctor about lithium vitamin supplements.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    Tonight we have a choice of 5 different venues all within 5 miles of where we live all with live bands on (inc drums) – and my son who doesn’t drink will drive us to where we like…

    so we may end up at the conservative club…

    I did ask my miserable mate last night (very old labour) what it was like…

    will they let us in…

    He said well they will let your wife in..dunno about you…but they even let me in wearing a very Right Wing Communist T-Shirt Featuring Che Guevara

    Tony

  • Habbabkuk (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

    Rather interesting (but not altogether surprising) to see who on here are licking their lips at the thought that the Brexit result will lead to a break up of the European Union.

    These are people who wish Europe and the West ill….

    • Alcyone: The Age when Eagles are Creepy Toothless Crocodiles

      Habby, you stand for elections, I’ll vote for you.

      The problem is that these politicians of the day are all career whores. Look at the way Gove pulled the rug out from under the feet of Johnson, even though he’s not going anywhere.

      Even less class on the other side of the aisle, Hilary Benn, that fat-arsed Tom Watson sweating under the cameras, that ugly Eagle shedding crocodile tears on TV. Honestly! I wouldn’t trust any of these bitches.

      And then I shudder at the Army of the United States of Europe.

      Given a chance, I would change the name of the Ministry of Defence to the Ministry of Offence in a Heartbeat. Who the fuck are we fooling? Which Century are we living in? How much hypocrisy can an intelligent person stand?

      Put the ‘Eat’ and ‘West’ and ‘North’ and ‘South’ aside for a moment, how long are we going to remain, and live as, the Type Zero Global Civilisation that we are….waiting for aliens to arrive and tell us to get our act together?

      The Obama we all loved, this arse, couldn’t shut one fuckin’ Guantanamo down?What’s he got between his legs? Ovaries? (NOM to 3rd parties)

    • Loony

      On the contrary they are most likely people with an abiding affection for Europe and its varied cultures. People who wish to resist the forced imposition of homogeneity for no other purpose than for the ease of administration by the hegemonic power.

      Those who wish Europe ill are not hard to identify. You could start with the ECB – that would be the same ECB who blame Greece for excess borrowing because low positive interest rates were too low, but are spending $80 billion per month because negative German interest rates are not negative enough.

      If you could extract yourself from your Lewis Carroll inspired fantasy land for just a moment you may realize that EU does not exist in any form that is recognizable to the human mind.

    • bevin

      There may very well be “people who wish Europe and the West ill” but they aren’t supporters of leaving the EU, which is doing its best to lower the living standards of the people of Europe, deprive their governments of sovereignty and herd them into submission to the USA’s mad attempt to rule the world.
      Those who wish Europe ill are all for the EU. Those “licking their lips” are doing so because they see the possibility of popular self government returning to the people.

      This might interest remainders:
      “…A government oppressed by “sovereign” debt is not really sovereign. A sovereign government has the power to issue money and need not go into debt at all. But EU member governments have lost that sovereign power. They are unable to issue their own money or borrow money issued by their own central banks. If they leave the EU, they can get that power back for future expenditures; but their existing debt is in euros, and only the ECB has the power to convert bonds into euros….”
      http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/07/brexit-and-the-derivatives-time-bomb/#more-63146

    • Alan (for accuracy and honesty when posting)

      These are people who wish Europe and the West ill….

      But Europe is NOT the European Union!

  • James

    Prof Minford (Applied Economics) isn’t worried about being “outside Europe”.
    He isn’t even worried about having “trade deals”.

    He merely states, we JUST NEEDS
    1. “A highly skilled workforce”
    2. Specialising in “high value technology”
    3. Which can be sold “at a high premium”.

    ….can you spot “the flaw” in the plan yet ?

    He was only playing leapfrog. He was only playing leapfrog.
    He was only playing leapfrog. When one Staff Officer jumped right over the other Staff Officers back !

  • James

    “Our democracy does not allow, much less require, decision-making by referendum. Democracy has never meant the tyranny of the simple majority, much less the tyranny of the mob.”

    Geoffrey Robertson QC

  • Rainborough

    “The right wing print media were indeed a major problem distorting democracy. However the solution to this should be to break up media ownership”

    If breaking up media organisations simply means that a larger number of mini-Murdochs and mini-Dacres assume control of a larger number of media outlets, very little will be gained. Jeremy Corbyn has indicated that the solution of setting up media co-ops is being examined by his party. Why should not all mass-audience and mass-circulation media groups be owned and controlled by a series of co-ops? Give every citizen the right to join the co-op of his or her choice at nominal cost, and gain the right to vote on the main thrust of editorial policy and on the membership of an editorial board.

    As Raymond Williams suggested long ago, finance could come from requiring the pooling and continuous redistribution of advertising income, with a view to creating and maintaining a diversity in the media which roughly corresponds to the diversity of opinion in the nation generally. This would also achieve the liberation of the media from toxic competitive pressures. We should regard the media which citizens of a democracy rely on as a source of knowledge of the world and of available political options as a branch of education, not of commerce.

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